26000 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:14pm Subject: Bhara sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > The Bhara sutta > Note > 1. This discourse parallels the teaching on the four noble truths, > but with a twist. The "burden" is defined in the same terms as the > first noble truth, the truth of suffering & stress. The taking on of > the burden is defined in the same terms as the second noble truth, > the origination of stress; and the casting off of the burden, in the > same terms as the third noble truth, the cessation of stress. The > fourth factor, however -- the carrier of the burden -- has no > parallel in the four noble truths, and has proven to be one of the > most controversial terms in the history of Buddhist philosophy. When > defining this factor as the person (or individual, puggala), the > Buddha drops the abstract form of the other factors, and uses the > ordinary, everyday language of narrative: the person with such-and- > such a name. And how would this person translate into more abstract > factors? He doesn't say. After his passing away, however, Buddhist > scholastics attempted to provide an answer for him, and divided into > two major camps over the issue. One camp refused to rank the concept > of person as a truth on the ultimate level. This group inspired what > eventually became the classic Theravada position on this issue: that > the "person" was simply a conventional designation for the five > aggregates. However, the other camp -- who developed into the > Pudgalavadin (Personalist) school -- said that the person was neither > a ultimate truth nor a mere conventional designation, neither > identical with nor totally separate from the five aggregates. This > special meaning of person, they said, was required to account for > three things: the cohesion of a person's identity in this lifetime > (one's person's memories, for instance, cannot become another > person's memories); the unitary nature of rebirth (one person cannot > be reborn in several places at once); and the fact that, with the > cessation of the khandhas at the death of an arahant, he/she is said > to attain the Further Shore. However, after that moment, they said, > nothing further could be said about the person, for that was as far > as the concept's descriptive powers could go. > > As might be imagined, the first group accused the second group of > denying the concept of anatta, or not-self; whereas the second group > accused the first of being unable to account for the truths that they > said their concept of person explained. Both groups, however, found > that their positions entangled them in philosophical difficulties > that have never been successfully resolved. > > Perhaps the most useful lesson to draw from the history of this > controversy is the one that accords with the Buddha's statements in > MN 72, where he refuses to get involved in questions of whether a > person has a live essence separate from or identical to his/her body, > or of whether after death there is something of an arahant that > exists or not. In other words, the questions aren't worth asking. > Nothing is accomplished by assuming or denying an ultimate reality > behind what we think of as a person. Instead, the strategy of the > practice is to comprehend the burden that we each are carrying and to > throw it off. That is what will settle all questions. [Go back] > > ______ Dear Christine, The writer of the passage you quote suggests that the Theravada postion is incomplete or even wrong: "their positions[of theravada and puggalavadin] entangled them in philosphical difficulties that have never been succesfully resolved." Is this your conclusion also? I happen to think the Theravada is not at all a philosphical position but simply a descrpition of reality. There is no self. AS the commentary to the sutta says: "By the expression 'the carrier of the burden' he shows the person to be a mere convention." see note 1051 Bodhi. Bhikkhu Bodhi says in his introduction to the Khandha samyutta , where this sutta comes from: "the subject of appropriation and identification with the 'self' is merely a fabrication of conceptual thought woven in the darkenss of ignorance"p.845 The writer further says that "Nothing is accomplished by assuming or denying an ultimate reality > behind what we think of as a person. Instead, the strategy of the > practice is to comprehend the burden that we each are carrying and to > throw it off. That is what will settle all questions" If one is still caught up in self view to the extreme degree of say the puggalavadins - who used the Bhara sutta to try to support their belief in self, then ignoring such ideas means that one will continue on in the wrong direction. One may even say that they don't believe in self but be so caught up in selfview that the suttas which use conventional language cause doubt about anatta to arise. Such doubts should be examined or seen as merely impersonal dhammas arising not to a person but void of all self. RobertK 26001 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:32pm Subject: This is the one and only path hi, ... just a friendly reminder. ---- from the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta Ekayano ayam, bhikkhave, maggo This is the one and only path. Sattanam visuddhiya To purify individuals... Soka-paridevanam samatikkamaya trancending very deep sorrow, (soka), and its manefestation in crying and lamentation, (parideva). As you practise, it comes to the surface and observing, you pass beyond it, (samatikkamaya). Dukkha-domanassanam atthangamaya. At a subtler level there is still unpleasent feeling in the mind, (domanassa), and unpleasent sensation on the body, (dukkha). These also are eradicated, (atthangamaya). ---- ... and what is this path (practise) ? Kaye kayanupassi viharati. to live witnessing the reality of the body in the body. vedanasu vedananupassi viharati. to live witnessing the truth of bodily sensations/feelings. citte cittanupassi viharati. to live witnessing the reality of mind within mind. dhammesu dhammanupassi viharati. to live witnessing the reality of the mind/mental contents. ---- ... and in what way do we do this ? with atapi - very ardently, diligently with sampajano - with the wisdom of arising and passing away; what was the cause of its arising? What was the cause of its passing away? with satima - awareness, with no imagination ... direct full continuous awareness witnessing them internally (within ourselves), and externally (in/on others) without clinging towards anything in the world, unattached. ---- ... and when do we do this ? as much as we could (when we remember to do so), all day, every day. This is the one and only path. ---- "...People felt satisfied just reciting a discourse, ... or memorizing the entire Tipitaka ... as if the purpose of their life was fulfilled. Then came discussions, debates, arguments about the meaning of words. Confusion prevailed, and without practise there was no understanding." -S.N. Goenka May all beings be happy, nori 26002 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 9:56pm Subject: Re: Bhara sutta Hello Robert, (Victor, Larry) and All, Robert - you say:"The writer of the passage you quote suggests that the Theravada postion is incomplete or even wrong: "their positions [of theravada and puggalavadin] entangled them in philosphical difficulties that have never been succesfully resolved." Is this your conclusion also?" My experience, as always, mostly confirms a feeling of there being a 'me'. When I am reflecting on Dependent Arising, as happens sometimes during the day and I notice the sequence occuring in my relationship to events within and without, I have no doubt about anatta. I concede that mostly I am in delusion, and I trust that, as panna develops I will cease to believe that there is a continuing entity called Christine. I know that I am very far from enlightenment - but the whole of Buddhism doesn't work together on this - some traditions pray to a Buddha who lives 'out there' to intercede in their troubles and to grant wishes, they believe he will lead them to salvation, to be with him eternally in a blissful place. Sometimes it seems the name Buddha has simply been substituted for the name Jesus. The first task for a beginner (which I obviously am) is to find a tradition that seems 'just right', which for me was Theravada. Then to realise that there is an awful lot to learn and understand, and to develop trust in those one regards as teachers. Having done this, one of the most confusing things is then to find divisions within that tradition as to 'what the Buddha REALLY meant', as well as criticism from other traditions. This can range over many subjects, but is most destructive to confidence when it is about one of the very foundations of the Buddha's spiritual path to liberation - anatta. Don't you think it would have been a whole lot easier if the Buddha had just plainly said: "There is no soul, each rebirth is just an automatic inalterable continuing of a wave of energy that either grows stronger or weakens in each 'life' until, or if, it dies out completely. There is no 'person', no 'awareness', no 'knower', no 'watcher' and no form of identity, nothing personal whatsoever that continues. The flux ceases upon the 'using up', 'eradicating', or not 'creating more' of the fuel that nourishes it - lobha, moha, dosa." Surely it would have been simple to just bluntly state the awful truth and say 'Deal with it'. But he doesn't actually say that. He doesn't say that an individual self/soul continues, or merges into a universal self/soul. He doesn't say there isn't such a thing, and he doesn't say there is such a thing. And so we are left trying to follow the teachings, but no-one actually 100% agrees what the teachings mean. Some well-known Bhikkhus say one thing. Others don't agree. If the Sangha hold different views, where do the beginner laypeople put their trust? Were they Arahats who disagreed over the meanings of the Bhara Sutta? and even if not, how can a muddle-headed puthujjana like me figure it out if those Venerables much closer to the Buddha's time, and much more learned, couldn't find consensus? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26003 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi Rob M, (Howard, Victor, James, Nina & All), --- robmoult wrote: > Some time ago, I was wrestling with the idea of "free will". Once > I "saw the light", I was "born again" and I > asked, "How could one possibly believe in free will?" > > I can now appreciate the common closing phrase to many > Suttas, "turning upright what had been overthrown". > > The same thing has now happened to me on the subject of intrinsic > properties of rupa. I ask you, "How can you possibly deny that rupa > has intrinsic properties?" :-) ..... ....and there's nothing like a "born again" xyz when it comes to sharing their newfound enthusiasm for turning upright the overthrown;-) ;-) I think you're definitely on the right track (no more 'dots'??), but I'm busy with teaching and doing all the right things for my leg to make sure it's fit for our trip to Thailand and Burma next week, so will have to delay responding to yours and other posts (Howard and all) for a couple of days more.... I will be reading them carefully and responding when I can. Metta and keep 'turning upright' meanwhile....;-) Sarah ====== 26004 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:15pm Subject: proximate cause, CMA and B.Bodhi's comments Dear Nina, Jim & All, (I’ll bring this to Jim’s attention when he’s back on line) As I mentioned the other day I was sending a note to Bhikkhu Bodhi on a few points people on DSG have suggested I raise with him over the last few months. He responded on some yesterday and I’ll include the relevant parts in 2 or 3 posts. (Note RobM, Nina & Larry- no response on Chinese CMA or Vism tiika comments). ***** Firstly, it’s not good news at all on his health and AN translation work: BB: >Unfortunately, owing to the severity of the headache, I had to discontinue with the translation of the Anguttara Nikaya. In May or June, I found it was getting too difficult for me to push myself into this kind of work when the headache was causing so much discomfort. Whether I will be able to resume work on the translation depends on whether I find relief. Needless to say, the prescription of kind Dr. Ma didn't work. In about ten days I will be going to Ann Arbor, Michigan, to the leading institute for the treatment of headache conditions in the U.S. This seems my last straw of hope.< ***** Secondly on the Qu Jim raised about proximate cause: Sarah: >On the subject of CMA, occasionally qus arise and not fully resolved. One of these recently on proximate cause can be seen at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/25075 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/25126 ***** BB’s reply: >The information in the Guide to CMA dealing with the characteristics, functions, manifestations, & proximate causes of the various cetasikas was prepared by Ven. U Rewata Dhamma. I simply polished up the English and integrated this information into the body of the work. I notice that in a back note I say that this information has been collected from the Visuddhimagga and Atthasalini. I think it was URD who told me these were the sources he used. I checked the Atthasalini, but could not find there any statement to the effect that yoniso manasikara is the px. cause of pa~n~naa. I also checked the Vibhaavini Tika and Ledi Sayadaw's Tika, but again could not find such a statement in those works. So I don't know the source upon which U Rewata Dhamma drew for this information.< **** [Jim & Nina, I’ve since brought the mistake in the Expositor (transl of Atth.) to his attention] Metta, Sarah ======= 26005 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] proximate cause, CMA and B.Bodhi's comments Dear Nina & All, (Newcomers may wish to see other posts on this detailed thread in UP under luminous) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Back on this this thread (AN1,49), I gave B.Bodhi the link to your response to his earlier comments here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16771 ..... B.Bodhi’s reply: >Re-reading my note on pabhassara-citta after one year (it was almost exactly one year ago that we were in Hong Kong), I still agree with it. To me, the idea that 'luminosity' is an intrinsic quality of citta, consisting in its ability to "illuminate" objects, seems more convincing than the idea that pabhassaram cittam refers to the 'bhavanga,' a concept that comes to prominence only in a considerably later strata of Buddhist literature. Still, the fact that the statement is made without elucidation in the Nikaya text may imply that it was intended to be suggestive rather than definitive, and thus should not be pinned down to one exclusive interpretation.< Metta, Sarah ====== 26006 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:33pm Subject: More on Luminous and B.Bodhi's comments Dear Nina & All, I forgot to change the subject heading for my last post. Pls change it if you reply. --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Nina & All, > > (Newcomers may wish to see other posts on this detailed thread in UP > under > luminous) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts 26007 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:35pm Subject: Steve- khandhas, upadaanakkhandhas & B.Bodhi's comments Hi Steve, Your Qu received the most detailed response! Sarah: Qu regarding the obtaining an article of yours referred to in Note 65 of Khandhavagga: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18775 ***** B.Bodhi: >My paper on "Aggregates and Clinging Aggregates" was published in a defunct journal, The Pali Buddhist Review, in c. 1976. I don't have a copy of the paper. My basic argument there was: (1) the only sutta that explicitly distinguishes between khandhas and upadaanakkhandhas is SN 22: 48. There the latter are defined in the same way as the former *except* that they are each said to be 'saasava upaadaaniya' ("with taints, subject to clinging"). It would follow that there must then be aggregates that are anaasava anupaadaaniya (without taints, not subject to clinging). Intuitively, these would seem to be the aggregates of the arahant. However, no such statement can be found in the Nikayas. I then turned to the Dhammasangani enumeration of 'saasava dhammas' and 'anaasava dhammas', and 'upaadaaniya dhammas' and 'na upaadaaniya dhammas'. I found that Dhs classifies the arahant's ordinary cittas and cetasikas under 'saasava' and 'upaadaaniya'. The only khandhas considered 'anaasava' and 'na upaadaaniya' are the mental khandhas (cittas and cetasikas) of the four maggas and phalas. All rupas are tainted and subject to clinging. I then went on to explore the significance of this for an understanding of the Dhamma; but without the paper I can't recapitulate what I wrote over 25 years ago. The old "Pali Buddhist Review" subsequently merged with another scholarly journal to become the "Buddhist Studies Review". If you can track this down on the web, perhaps they have back issues available and you can find that article. Or perhaps the paper itself is on the web. Just look for the above title.< ***** Metta, Sarah p.s If there is anything anyone would particularly like me to bring to BB’s attention (preferably with no urgency), please post and indicate. ================= 26008 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 0:05am Subject: Re: letter about Egypt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear James, > It's me again, Janice! I hope you are keeping > well? Well, I have read many of your diaries about > Egypt as well as reply to many letters. Well, I have a > bountiful amount of questions. However, I shall only > ask a few now!!! > Does the Buddha believe in committing > adultery? (This is like, is there a consequence after > you have committed adultery) Is Buddhism only in a > specific area in Egypt or the whole of Egypt? Are > there Egyptian Buddha prayer books? > Metta, > Janice Hi Starkid Janice, Thank you, I am keeping well. No, the Buddha didn't believe in adultery; however, there isn't a specific consequence for committing adultery. I would suppose the consequence would be negative karma. Buddhism isn't a recognized religion in Egypt and there aren't any Egyptian Buddha prayer books (though that would be interesting to see! ;-). Take care. Metta, James 26009 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 0:12am Subject: Re: Bhara sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Robert, (Victor, Larry) and All, > > Robert - you say:"The writer of the passage you quote suggests that > the Theravada postion is incomplete or even wrong: "their positions > [of theravada and puggalavadin] entangled them in philosphical > difficulties that have never been succesfully resolved." Is this your > conclusion also?" > >> The first task for a beginner (which I obviously am) is to find a > tradition that seems 'just right', which for me was Theravada. Then > to realise that there is an awful lot to learn and understand, and to > develop trust in those one regards as teachers. Having done this, > one of the most confusing things is then to find divisions within > that tradition as to 'what the Buddha REALLY meant', as well as > criticism from other traditions. This can range over many subjects, > but is most destructive to confidence when it is about one of the > very foundations of the Buddha's spiritual path to liberation - > anatta. > > And so we are left trying to follow the teachings, but no-one > actually 100% agrees what the teachings mean. Some well-known > Bhikkhus say one thing. Others don't agree. > ____________ Dear Christine, I add comments: If the Sangha hold > different views, where do the beginner laypeople put their trust? > Were they Arahats who disagreed over the meanings of the Bhara > Sutta? and even if not, how can a muddle-headed puthujjana like me > figure it out if those Venerables much closer to the Buddha's time, > and much more learned, couldn't find consensus? > _____ Occasionally the commentaries point out very minor disagreements about some small point, but the ancient Theravada sangha didn't hold different views about anatta. The puggalavadins - who used any conventional speech about person to try to justify their ideas- were not part of the Theravada sangha. They may have originally ordained as Theravada but they rejected the ancient teachings and started a new sect. Naturally today there will be those with similar ideas and indeed as time passes the truth of anatta will become lost and so too the Dhamma. _____ Don't you think it would have been a whole lot easier if the Buddha > had just plainly said: "There is no soul, each rebirth is just an automatic inalterable > continuing of a wave of energy that either grows stronger or weakens > in each 'life' until, or if, it dies out completely. There is > no 'person', no 'awareness', no 'knower', no 'watcher' and no form > of identity, nothing personal whatsoever that continues. The flux > ceases upon the 'using up', 'eradicating', or not 'creating more' of > the fuel that nourishes it - lobha, moha, dosa." ____ As I read hundreds and hundreds of suttas he said essentially this. As for saying there is 'no awareness' I do not think he would say this as awareness is part of sankhara khandha - it is very real. I think even if someone reads such suttas as the fire sutta (II. 3.2.Aggi-vacchagottasutta.m (72),where the Buddha explains what we think of as 'life' is only conditioned phenomena, the one with wrong view will interpret it according to that view. `Vaccha, if you were asked, this fire burning in front of you, on account of what is it burning, how would you reply?''Good Gotama, if I was asked, this fire burning in front of you, on account of what is it burning, I would reply, this fire burning in front of me is burning on account of grass and sticks.' `Vaccha, if the fire in front of you extinguishes, would you know, this fire in front of me has extinguished?' For the one who has begun to understand conditionality this passage is clear. While if one has selfview embedded they will look for some way to explain this in terms of self and permanence. Either view, right or wrong, is conditioned and accumulated. My suggestion, for those who truly fear dukkha and samsara , is to learn what the present moment really is. It is only a conditioned phenomenon, no-self. The "Kindred Sayings"(III, Khandha vagga, Middle Fifty, Ch V, par. 99, The Leash) Just as, monks, a dog tied up by a leash to a strong stake or pillar, keeps running round and revolving round and round that stake or pillar, even so, monks, the untaught many folk... regard body as self, regard feeling, perception, activities, consciousness as self... they run and revolve round and round from body to body, from feeling to feeling, from perception to perception, from activities to activities, from consciousness to consciousness...they are not released therefrom, they are not released from rebirth, from old age and decay, from sorrow and grief, from woe, lamentation and despair... they are not released from dukkha, I declare... " It then says that the ariyan disciple who does not take any khnadha for self is released from dukkha. If selfview is not diminished in this life, when the medicine is liberally available, then when? It will be harder in the future as more wrong views will come in to distort the teachings. So far the councils of monks who recite the teachings wisely followed the ancients. It may be that at the next council it is decided to follow some other way. Already we occasionally hear of some monks who reject the Abhidhamma. So we learn to see the utter voidness of self in every moment. Just elements arising because they are conditioned to arise. It is the way beyond all fear and worry. RobertK 26010 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 0:18am Subject: Re: Buddhism in Egypt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Hi James, > > It's Hilary. I've read your letters and saw that > you've moved to Egypt. Is the living life style there > quite different? What religion do most people there > believe in? Are the Buddhist temples there built > differently? How does it feels as a BUddhist living in > Egypt? > > Well, hope you have a good time living in Egypt > > > Metta, > Hilary Hi Starkid Hilary! Thank you for your letter. Yes, living in Egypt is quite different than living in the US (or most modern, industrialized cities I would imagine). The official religion of the people is Islam and there are some Christians, in Egypt the Christians are called `Coptic Christians'. There aren't any Buddhist temples in Egypt as far as I know. Officially, Islam is supposed to be open-minded to other religions; unofficially, it really isn't. I have a female student with whom I was discussing religion and she told me that she was interested in a lot of different religions but she really couldn't tell anyone about it. I asked her why and she said that people wouldn't approve. She was born a Muslim and I asked her what would happen if she decided to change her religion and she told me, "My father would have me killed, really killed. He has the right to do that in Islam." So you see, this country really isn't open to other religions. How do I feel being a Buddhist in this Islamic country? Actually I don't feel too different, as far as religion goes. I have always been a bit of an outsider/rebel, even among other Buddhists, so I'm used to it. Thank you for the well wishes and I hope that you do well in school. Metta, James 26011 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:05am Subject: Contemplation on sappaya sampajañña (clear comprehension of suitability), desire Hi all, My contemplation and realization on sappaya sampajañña (clear comprehension of suitability), desire/craving and action: I have been contemplating whether or not to quit my job and leave NYC since it causes me much stress and felt it not suitable. My aversion to my job and NYC very often leads me to desire/crave to be elsewhere; preferably somewhere peaceful, warm, with a clear ocean, open space and palm trees, void of the harsh personalities that one often encounters here. Those cravings lead me to experience suffering. In my struggle to decide what to do, whether to overcome my aversion to my job and NYC and to remain here, or to leave and find a more suitable situation, I made some posts to this discussion group and others as well. In one of the replies, (namely made by robertK) he made me aware of a term - Sampajañña (comprehension or clear comprehension) as used in the Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) In the commentary of the Satipatthana Sutta, as he pointed out, it is stated thus: ---- http://www.abhidhamma.org/CommentaryBody.htm#ClearComprehension Clear comprehension [sampajananam] = comprehending clearly [sampajanam]. Both words mean the same thing; their difference is only one of affix. … For the yogi practices only clear comprehension and is nowhere bereft of clear comprehension, in going forwards and going backwards. There are these four kinds of comprehension: 1. Satthaka sampajañña - clear comprehension of purpose 2. Sappaya sampajañña - clear comprehension of suitability 3. Gocara sampajañña - clear comprehension of resort 4. Asammoha sampajañña - clear comprehension of non-delusion … The clear comprehension of purpose in going forwards and backwards is clear comprehension of purpose. The clear comprehension of what is suitable, fit, to oneself is clear comprehension of suitability. … ... ---- What a relief it was to read this. I was under the false impression that eliminating aversion and desire meant tolerating whatever life may throw your way that was not suitable. Verily, the Buddha teaches: "…in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear comprehension; … in bending and in stretching, is a person practicing clear comprehension; … in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savored, is a person practicing clear comprehension …in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), … is a person practicing clear comprehension."- Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) …And so it is taught by the blessed one, to sum it up: in acting, one is to always maintain a clear comprehension of, among other aspects of clear comprehension, what is suitable and what is not. If one finds himself in a burning building, he should consider what is suitable-and-what is not and make action/effort to leave it if there is no purpose for him to remain there. One does not remain in the burning building to tolerate the physical pain; one does not remain in the building, making attempt to get over the aversion of the heat from the fire. If one has the option to leave, then he should leave. Likewise, if one finds himself in a room full of people that are unbeloved (such as those that hate you, or cause / intend to cause you harm or suffering), then you should consider what is suitable and what is not, and make action/effort to leave if there is no purpose for you to remain there. One does not remain in the room to tolerate the pain and abuse; one does not remain in the room to make an attempt to get over the aversion of those un-beloved people. If one has the option to leave then he should leave. Every moment, one is making a choice of action (including taking no action at all). Whatever he may be doing, let him do it with clear comprehension (sampajañña): 1. Satthaka sampajañña - clear comprehension of purpose 2. Sappaya sampajañña - clear comprehension of suitability 3. Gocara sampajañña - clear comprehension of resort 4. Asammoha sampajañña - clear comprehension of non-delusion …Let him do what is suitable. and also … If one finds himself in a situation that is not suitable to him, that brings him suffering, and does not have the option to leave it, then he should dissolve his suffering (his aversion and desire) with the awareness that he has chosen the best course of action/situation available to him within his options. He should not crave another situation / have aversion to his current situation, since this will bring him more suffering. His craving and aversion will not help resolve his suffering; with this awareness he should not have craving/aversion. If one finds himself in a situation that is not suitable to him, that brings him suffering, due to a bad choice, or when he had an option to avoid it in the past (whether not taken through - short sightedness, misjudgment, sloth, etc.), then he should not regret not taking that option, since this will bring him more suffering. Regretting will not help resolve his suffering; with the awareness of this he should not regret. … And again, if one finds himself with an option to better his situation to what is more suitable, then, with clear comprehension, let him do so. May all beings be happy, nori 26012 From: Julie, Steve and Kevin Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:55pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: G'day! Thanks Rob, Christine and Nina for your tips and encouragement. Am in the process of reading Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" and finding it a bit of a strain on the old brain. Will probably ask some questions when I figure out what to ask! By the way Christine, I live in Melbourne. Have been interested in Buddhism for a while now but haven't really got into the nuts and bolts of it until this year. Can thank having two beautiful babies (3 and 1 year old) for giving me a wake up call. (And that includes the early morning feeds!!!!) See Ya Julie -----Original Message----- From: robmoult [mailto:rob.moult@j...] Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 8:25 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: G'day! Hi Julie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jhcsks" wrote: > Have recently joined this fascinating group and would like to say > hi. I can pretty much guarantee that I wont be participating all > that often, as most of what you're discussing is well and truly over > my head. It's been really valuable trying to absorb some of what's > been discussed. Didn't just want to be a lurker out in cyber space > without introducing myself. Hope you don't mind me "lurking". Welcome! I take it from your introduction that you are an Aussie. There are quite a number of active Aussies on the list (Christine, KenH, Jon, etc.). If you are interested in Abhidhamma, you might want to download the scripted PowerPoint presentation from the files section, "Introduction to the Abhidhamma". If you are interested in a more general introduction to Buddhism, you might want to download Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" as an e-book from: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ I have found that it is introductory questions from ex-lurkers (you now no longer qualify as a lurker!) that raise some of the most interesting exchanges. There are probably some other lurkers out there who are wondering the same things you are. Please post a question or two! Metta, Rob M :-) 26013 From: Sarah Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 3:37am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: G'day! Hi Julie, --- "Julie, Steve and Kevin" wrote: > Thanks Rob, Christine and Nina for your tips and encouragement. Am in > the > process of reading Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" and finding it a bit > of a > strain on the old brain. Will probably ask some questions when I figure > out > what to ask! ..... ;-) Welcome from me as well. It may help if you print out the glossary in files and have it by your side when you read: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms Also, I think it may be more helpful to just read a few lines at a time and consider, rather than trying to read it like a novel. Of course Nina and all of us will be very happy if you ask for any clarifications - as the others said, you can be sure you’ll be doing other lurkers a big favour. Nothing is too simple here;-) In U.P. which Christine mentioned, if you scroll down to “New to the list...” and also “Abhidhamma for beginners”, you may find the posts helpful. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts .... >By the way Christine, I live in Melbourne. Have been > interested > in Buddhism for a while now but haven't really got into the nuts and > bolts > of it until this year. Can thank having two beautiful babies (3 and 1 > year > old) for giving me a wake up call. (And that includes the early morning > feeds!!!!) ..... Jon’s from Adelaide orginally and we were there (just 2 or 3 years) before coming to Hong Kong 20 years ago, though I try to distance myself from the Aussie mafia here;-) (Just kidding!). I’ve spent a bit of time sitting around at the Australian consulate here recently getting my Aussie passport renewed in time for our trip next week. I thought I’d cleared all the hurdles when they made a fuss about the photos I took on the run in a photomax booth - not enough head and too much neck & chest..... luckily in the DSG album we’re not so picky otherwise Larry’s extra arm would certainly have caused a few raised eyebrows.... Look forward to having you share more, Julie and a family pic in the album sometime would be very nice. (Christine and Kom can help with any techie probs). See Ya too, Metta, Sarah ====== 26014 From: Sarah Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 3:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplation_on_sappaya_sampajañña_(clear_comprehension_of_suitability),_desire Hi Nori, Very nice to read your comments and quotes again and good to see all your well-considered comments. --- norakat147 wrote: > Hi all, > > My contemplation and realization on sappaya sampajañña (clear > comprehension of suitability), desire/craving and action: > > I have been contemplating whether or not to quit my job and leave NYC > since it causes me much stress and felt it not suitable. > > My aversion to my job and NYC very often leads me to desire/crave to > be elsewhere; preferably somewhere peaceful, warm, with a clear > ocean, open space and palm trees, void of the harsh personalities > that one often encounters here. > > Those cravings lead me to experience suffering. ..... It helps a lot when we can appreciate this even a little (i.e craving -> suffering). I also really hope that life and the physical circumstances work out as you wish or feel would be more conducive. No self of course, as RobK just wrote about. I'm not really writing posts now (!!). Hope others like Mike and RobK add more. Metta, Sarah p.s Look f/w to that pic....;-) ============================== 26015 From: Sarah Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 3:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma and Clonning, Antibiotic and Kamma Hi Javisens, I was also very glad to read your question and Christine’s reply with the link to RobK’s article. As Rob pointed out, genes may be identical, but consciousness and what we call ‘character’ can never be identical. Even for us now, two moments of consciousness are never exactly the same. The seeing consciousness now is not the same as the hearing consciousness or even the seeing consciousness of a few moments ago. I teach children and sometimes parents find it difficult to understand how their children can be so very different in character and ability and so on. From a Buddhist point of view, there’s no reason why they should be a alike or like the parents at all. I’ve taught many sets of twins, some identical, with very, very different inclinations and propensities. Anyway, I hope you respond further to Christine’s, RobK’s or other comments and look forward to more of your questions. Would you care to share a little about yourself such as where you live or your interest in these questions? There may be other considerations in taking antibiotics, but not the one you mention as Chris clarified, I think. Metta, Sarah p.s Newbies may wish to note that posts can also be seen and searched at this back up site: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ ================================================ --- javisens wrote: > Can someone explain how clonning of an animal will explain in terms > of kamma? 26016 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 4:02am Subject: According to the Buddha, there isn't such thing as luck! Dear James, Thankyou for the reply. So if the Buddha does not believe in luck, did the Buddha do things that are good and not bad? Why do people have to do good things to want good things to happen to themselves? Is this one of the teachings from the Buddha? Yes, I did know that King Tut is actually a boy king! Did you take any photos of his treasures? And what treasures did he have? Metta, Sandy 26017 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 5:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "As I said before, I think this is important to recognise. > First, > it shows that samatha does not depend on 'being concentrated', and > secondly it means there is a basis in one's daily life as it > already is for samatha to be further developed. > Any problem with this?" > > Hi Jon, > > No problem at all. Onward--> Well, I think we are there already ;-)). Let me try to summarise. The development of samatha begins now, at moments of samatha that occur naturally in our daily life. After all, it is the existing tendency for samatha that must be the foundation upon which samatha is further developed (given of course the other necessary supporting factors). There is no need to development concentration first. Kusala concentration will be developed as samatha itself is developed. To try to develop kusala concentration by focussing on one of the 'samatha' objects is really to mistake the result for the cause. At the very least, it could not bring about the same outcome as an understanding of the moments of samatha that occur naturally in daily life, at which times understanding of the level of samatha can see directly the exact nature of kusala, and how it is different in character from akusala. Any chance of agreement with this conclusion? Jon 26018 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina and Jon, > > Thanks for your answers concerning what kind of cittas have a > tranquility cetasika accompanying it. What I really wanted to know > is > what exactly is tranquility. Is it a kind of mental feeling? If so, > I'm > surprised it would be included with higher jhana cittas and path > and fruition cittas. I would think these cittas would be free of > feeling. Just to supplement Nina's comprehensive answer, are you perhaps trying to fit conventional ideas of tranquility and feeling into the Dhamma? As we know, terms are used in the teachings with very specific meanings and usually those meanings are quite different to the conventional ones. In the teachings, all mental factors (cetasikas) support and lend 'flavour' to consciousness (citta) in expereiencing the object of that moment. Thus tranquility as a cetasika has very little to do with the warm, fuzzy feeling we conventionally associate with tranquility. The tranquillity of kusala citta could arise alternately with akusala cittas accompanied with dosa such that the predominant 'feeling' was one of stress or anxiety. Jon 26019 From: sue Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:49am Subject: new member Dear BSG members I also have been 'lurking' like Julie. I have found the posts very helpful, but I have not previously posted because I do not know enough to contribute usefully. I do have a question but I am not sure if it is appropriate for this group. Non-violence or non-harm is very important in buddhism. I myself am vegetarian, and try to avoid harming any beings. What then is the view of self defence according to the Buddha's teachings? Metta Sue Saunders (England) 26020 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 8:58am Subject: Re: The Verse On The Buddha's Last Lunch: Anaadara? To Nina, Derek ... Dear Nina, Derek and all How are you? Nina wrote and asked: "Taking again the sentence: bhutassa ca suukaramaddavena: The -ena ending is instrumentalis, not ablative. As I read in Warder, which does not give many details, ablative would rather give the cause, the reason of something. But Instrumentalis is more general, has more meanings, not so definite. What do you think? it can influence our translation." In the case of the verse on the Buddha's last lunch, we do not even need to think much about it. All we needed to do was to read carefully the Buddha's own request on his choice of lunch as described in Section 189 in the Mahaaparinibbana Suttam of Mahaavaggo in Diighanikaayo. Here is the Buddha's choice. "Evam, bhante"ti kho cundo kammaaraputto bhagavato pa.tissutvaa yam ahosi suukaramaddavam pa.tiyattam, tena bhagavantam parivisi. Section 190, Mahaaparinibbana Suttam, Mahaavaggo, Diighanikaayo "Cundo, the son of goldsmith, agreeing indeed with the Mighty One by replying "As you asked, Lord", fed the Mighty One with the tender pork cuisine which was prepared and cooked." Nina, please pay attention to the predicate "tena bhagavantam parivisi". The pronoun in the instrumental case ( tena ) refers to the terder pork cuisine (neuter noun in nominative case in the sense of being with, i.e, the instrumental case). We could break up the compound statement "yam --- ahosi --, tena --- parivisi" as follows. 1. There was the tender pork cuisine already prepared and cooked. 2. Cunda fed the Buddha with that. Therefore, the Buddha had eaten lunch WITH tender pork cuisine. Nina, please also pay attention to the Buddha's description of the event using the Anaadara (disrespect/ regardless of / despite / no comcern) syntax as follows. Atha kho bhagavato cundassa kammaaraputtassa bhattam bhuttaavissa kharo aabaadho uppajji, .. Section 190, Mahaaparinibbana Suttam, Mahaavaggo, Diighanikaayo "At that time, while (although) the Mighty One had eaten the food of Cunda, of the son of goldsmith, severe disorder did happen anyway, …" As you can spot in the Pali, by looking at the verbal adjectival predicate "bhuttaavissa", we can rewrite the term "bhagavato" as "bhagavassa" and know that the "-to" suffix in "bhagavato" indicates the noun in the genetive case. Therefore, we now know that the line "Bhuttassa ca suukaramaddavena" in the verse is merely a summary perfectly in line with the Buddha's own verbal statements on the event of his last lunch. By the above grammartical analyses of the Buddha's own statements in Section 189 and Section 190 of the Mahaaparinibbana Suttam, Mahaavaggo,in Diighanikaayo, we now know for sure that the tender pork cuisine was not the cause of the Buddha's diarrhoeaic blood loss. The Buddha had taken the tender pork cuisine for the sole purpose of preserving his physical strength. As I have been basing my reasoning and conclusions entirely on the grammartical analyses of Suttam statements and evidences, there is no longer any room left for some uninformed or careless readers to accuse Aacariya Buddhaghosa of creative commenting or inventing stories. Please view the following alternative translations of the line: "Bhuttassa ca suukaramaddavena" "While having eaten lunch with the tender pork cuisine" "Despite having eaten lunch with the tender pork cuisine" "Although having eaten lunch with the tender pork cuisine" The above translations are exact and literal by following the strict grammartical rule for Anaadara syntax with genetive case. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org ______________________________ Derek wrote: "The only way to maintain the orthodoxy would be to claim that Cunda's alms-giving *didn't* cause the death of the Buddha. Hence the commentators and the author of the Milindapanha taking pains to argue this point, and so maintain the consistency of the Buddhist worldview." ___________________________ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Suan, Thank you very much, I begin to understand. No concern is clearer, we should not take respect literally when it comes to grammar. Taking again the sentence: bhutassa ca suukaramaddavena: The -ena ending is instrumentalis, not ablative. As I read in Warder, which does not give many details, ablative would rather give the cause, the reason of something. But Instrumentalis is more general, has more meanings, not so definite. What do you think? it can influence our translation. Nina. op 09-10-2003 17:51 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Anaadara (a verb showing disrespect or no concern) is one of unique > or peculiar technical terms of the traditional Pali grammar texts. > 26021 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 9:25am Subject: Re: Bhara sutta Hi Robert and all, If you think that Theravada is simply a description of reality, then I would say that is a misunderstanding. First of all, I would say that Theravada is a school, sect, or tradition of Buddhism with Pali Canon as its scriptural foundation. Both Theravada Buddhism and the Buddha's teaching that is recorded in the Pali Canon are not simply a description of reality. To see the Buddha's teaching as simply a description of reality is a misunderstanding on what the Buddha's teaching is about. Reading Bhara Sutta did not cause doubt in me on the Buddha's teaching, one way or another. How would reading Bhara Sutta cause doubt in the Buddha's teaching? As I see it, there are at least two ways one could have doubt regarding the Buddha's teaching upon reading Bhara Sutta. First, if the Buddha's teaching in and of itself is incoherent, leads to the unwholesome and not to the wholesome, or not pertaining to dukkha and the cessation of dukkha, then one could have doubt upon reading Bhara Sutta. Secondly, if one misunderstood the Buddha's teaching, partially or fully, regarding what is not the Buddha's teaching as what the Buddha taught, then one could have doubt upon reading Bhara Sutta. Both views "there is self" and "there is no self" are not what the Buddha taught. Both views are to be abandoned. What belief in self or self-view to the extreme degree are you talking about? How would one use Bhara Sutta to try to support one's belief in self? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Christine, [snip] > I happen to think the Theravada is not at all a philosphical position > but simply a descrpition of reality. There is no self. AS the [snip] > > If one is still caught up in self view to the extreme degree of say > the puggalavadins - who used the Bhara sutta to try to support their > belief in self, then ignoring such ideas means that one will continue > on in the wrong direction. One may even say that they don't believe > in self but be so caught up in selfview that the suttas which use > conventional language cause doubt about anatta to arise. Such doubts > should be examined or seen as merely impersonal dhammas arising not > to a person but void of all self. > RobertK 26022 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 10:56am Subject: Egypt Diary: Ruined Country Hi All, In my English classes, we are studying The Tragedy of Macbeth. I had the students do a journal writing on the subject of `Do you know anyone who is obsessed with power and what are/were the consequences?' I got a response from one of my students that I found very revealing. I have tried to say in so many words in my updates that Egypt is a very screwed up country and I just keep getting the response that I am suffering from culture shock. Well, here are the words of a young adult who grew up in Egypt; it can't be culture shock this time: I know a person who is obsessed with power. I did not know him personally, but he is well known where I come from. Egypt. He is Gamal Abdel Nasser. He was president of Egypt from sometime in the sixties up until he got a heart attack and died in the early seventies. He was a terrible leader. His socialist ways of ruling the country drove it down the drain. He believed that all men and women should be equal in all levels and through all perspectives. He believed that no person could have the right to own anything. Everything was owned by the state. People did not have a say on anything. People could not protest. For you see, Gamal Abd-ed Nasser had undeniable Charisma; he had this definite presence. He was tall, handsome, well-built, and had this loud, strident, yet positive and very motivational voice. He'd go up on his stand, before all the people in the country, and shout out things like, "I am one of you," or "all people should be equal"…etc. Of course when 70 to 80% of the actual people living in Egypt were illiterate, what do you expect? They could not read nor write. They were poor, had no jobs, had no hope. He tried to make all people equal, but like all dictators before him, failed. He would take lands, factories, rest-houses, summer-houses, etc of people. He'd have police break into people's houses, take jewelry, any kind of finery, antiques, etc. Then they would all be owned by the state. By him. Rich people became poor. They worked hard for all of their belongings, then some illiterate fool comes in and takes them. What kind of democracy is that? People loved him. Egyptians loved him. And by Egyptians I mean the majority (i.e. the 70% I referred to before). But as for the intelligent, intellectual, educated people…No. They despised him. And guess what happens if anyone dares speak of it? They would mysteriously disappear. Where to? Prison. Never to be heard from again. I'll tell you of a true story. My mother (who is British) moved here to Cairo with her parents and siblings. My grandmother and grandfather got to know this other British couple. They became very good friends. One night that couple went to the movies. Before the film started, the husband made a comment about how he thought that Gamal Abd-el Nasser's system was "a bit too much." That night, at home, the police broke in his house and arrested him. He was thrown into a prison known as the `Citadell Prison.' Could he do anything about it? No. Could his wife do anything about it? No. They could not even prove it. She waited in hope for his return, but he never came. She went back to England and married there. His son and daughter never saw him again until they had children of their own. (After Gamal Abd-el Nasser died). Well, could anyone be trusted then? Could anyone actually say what they felt or thought about their country or its ruler? I know not! Waiters at restaurants, ushers at the movies, teachers at school, everyone seemed to be working as a spy for Gamal Abd-el Nasser. It was a terrible time. To try and show Arab countries that we are all one, with `Islam' in common, he'd send our soldiers, with our weapons, to any country that was in any kind of military trouble. For instance when Yemen was in war, he sent several of our soldiers, weapons, equipment, etc. This used to cost Egypt millions, and millions. Till today we cannot pay off our debts. It's all because of his foolish and selfish decisions. When Israel took over Sinai. He had this speech motivating people and inspiring them, unrealistically telling them "We are strong, we will go in and take Sinai, the west bank all of our land and that of our brothers the Palestinians.." Followed by claps, shouts, screams of happy, hyped-up and highly motivated people. He gives a charming, confident smile, cameras fade out! So many hundreds of thousands of people died during that war of 67. We lost our sons, our weapons, our equipment. But most of all, our dignity, pride, and confidence. Gamal Abd-el Nasser only believed in his way, his rules, his beliefs, and nothing else. He was selfish, and sought power in a very monstrous and savage way. Because of his obsession with power, people died, the country was ruined, the country is in debt, and we are still till this day, trying to fix what he so easily managed to break and ruin. Note from James: I have discussed this with other people and it does explain many of the dysfunctional things I have witnessed in Egypt. Because of Nasser's socialist system, everyone was guaranteed a job...now the work ethic in this country is terrible. I have never seen so many lazy workers! Because of the widespread spying and reporting to officials, the people here are distrustful and untrustworthy. Lying and two-faced behavior is commonplace. And there are also the infrastructure problems and the poverty. Hardly a thing works properly in this country. Honestly, I wasn't aware of all of this before deciding to move here. My 'contacts' in Cairo, Lucille and Mike, purposefully didn't tell me about any of this. They have since told me that they didn't want to be 'too negative'. Frankly, I consider that deception...but that is the Egyptian way. But I am here now; I will try to make the best of it. I guess I am part of the solution for Egypt. Maybe one day when I am old and Egypt is in better shape, I can be proud of the work I did here. 26023 From: Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, Yes! I do agree with everything you said. I would even go further and say, traditionally, sila is developed before concentration. One might ask, why develop concentration at all? How do you see this? Larry Jon: "The development of samatha begins now, at moments of samatha that occur naturally in our daily life. After all, it is the existing tendency for samatha that must be the foundation upon which samatha is further developed (given of course the other necessary supporting factors). There is no need to development concentration first. Kusala concentration will be developed as samatha itself is developed. To try to develop kusala concentration by focussing on one of the 'samatha' objects is really to mistake the result for the cause. At the very least, it could not bring about the same outcome as an understanding of the moments of samatha that occur naturally in daily life, at which times understanding of the level of samatha can see directly the exact nature of kusala, and how it is different in character from akusala. Any chance of agreement with this conclusion?" 26024 From: Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "Thus tranquility as a cetasika has very little to do with the warm, fuzzy feeling we conventionally associate with tranquility." Hi Jon, What then is the experience of tranquility? Larry 26025 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:33pm Subject: Re: new member Hello Sue, and all, Welcome to dsg, I'm glad you de-lurked to ask this question. :-) I understand how you feel - when you first start on this list it is hard enough just to read the posts. I assure you it gets easier with practise. Just skip anything that is too difficult, has too much Pali or isn't yet of interest. New people ask the most interesting questions - like yours on self- defense. If one values non-harming, then I'm sure other questions on suicide, war, euthanasia, abortion, economic ethics, treatment of nature etc will also arise over time. But there is no 'cut and dried' answer. The living of life is more complicated than the writing of a post or article. :-) My understanding is that Buddhism doesn't have just one overarching unchangeable law against harming other beings with the same consequence for all offenses. The intensity of the offense or crime, as under serious provocation or in self-defense, may be judged differently. If you have a strong interest in ethics - you may be like to read "An Introduction to Buddhist Ethics" by Peter Harvey. (I think he is still a Prof. at Sunderland University in Buddhist Studies). I give an exerpt here on the first precept: non-injury (p.69) ... "Taking the first precept rules out the intentional killing of any living being, human or otherwise. The spirit of this precept is expressed thus: "Laying aside violence in respect of all beings, both those which are still and those which move ... he should not kill a living creature, nor cause to kill, nor approve of others killing. (Sn. 394) "Abandoning onslaught on breathing beings, he abstains from this; without stick or sword, scrupulous, compassionate, trembling for the welfare of all living beings. (M.1.345; cf. D.1.4.) Injuring but not killing a being is clearly against the spirit of the precept, but does not fully break it .....and likewise death accidentally resulting from an attack does not break it. (Uss. 171) The object of this precept is not limited to humans, as all sentient beings share in the same cycle of rebirths and in the experience of various types of suffering. It is, however, worse to kill or injure a human than an animal, or a larger or more hightly developed animal than a lesser one." The Precepts are training rules - in real life when faced with an immediate violent situation, there is no time to think. You will react immediately and do whatever it is that you will do. All behaviour comes from previous conditions. I guess previous reflection on and a way of life that places importance on the concept of ahimsaa (non-harming) will affect your immediate reaction. But no-one can tell in advance how they will react. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sue wrote: > Dear BSG members > > I also have been 'lurking' like Julie. I have found the posts very helpful, but I have not previously posted because I do not know enough to contribute usefully. > > I do have a question but I am not sure if it is appropriate for this group. Non-violence or non-harm is very important in buddhism. I myself am vegetarian, and try to avoid harming any beings. What then is the view of self defence according to the Buddha's teachings? > > Metta > > Sue Saunders (England) 26026 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:34pm Subject: Re: new member Hi Sue, Welcome! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sue wrote: Non-violence or non-harm is very important in buddhism. I myself am vegetarian, and try to avoid harming any beings. What then is the view of self defence according to the Buddha's teachings? Excellent question! Modern society measures quality of actions predominantly by the impact they have on our surroundings. In Buddhism, we focus on the effect of actions on ourselves (agents of actions). All things start with the mind and it is the quality of the mind at the instant that determines the ethical value of the action: - If the mind is one of attachment or greed, this is unwholesome - If the mind is one of aversion or hatred, this is unwholesome - If the mind is one of delusion, this is unwholesome - If the mind is one of generosity, this is wholesome - If the mind is one of loving-kindness, this is wholesome - If the mind is one of wisdom, this is wholesome "Unwholesome" means that it creates bad kamma; it creates a condition for the arising of something bad for oneself in the future. "Wholesome" means that it creates good kamma; it creates a condition for the arising of something good for oneself in the future. Buddhists have five rules of training (precepts): 1. To avoid killing 2. To avoid stealing 3. To avoid sexual misconduct 4. To avoid lying 5. To avoid intoxicants (drugs and alcohol) Let us consider the first precept in more detail. In order for "killing to occur", the following five conditions must be met: 1. A living being 2. Knowledge that there is a living being 3. Desire to kill 4. Effort to kill 5. Death of a being You have asked about self defence. What is the state of a person practicing self defence?: - If you are practicing judo or karate as a sport of "self defence", this is not necessarily done with an unwholesome mind. - If you are returning fire when somebody is shooting at you, then it is probably done with an unwholesome state of mind and may even meet all the requirements for "killing". - If you accidentially kill somebody because you have raised your hand to defend yourself when somebody attacks you, this is probably done with an unwholsome state of mind, but may not meet the requirements of "killing". Hope that this helps. Please ask for clarifications and/or ask more questions. I am sure that there are more lurkers out there with similar questions. Metta, Rob M :-) 26028 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 3:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi Howard (and Sarah); --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > As far as I'm concerned, a rupa that is pleasant, unpleasant, or > neutral is, of necessity, an experienced rupa. Any other rupa is unknown, and the > notion of its having an affective flavor is meaningless. It is not yet an > actuality. As I see it, a group of phenomenal conditions that serve as conditions > for the arising of a rupa, when not yet all in place, can be thought of as "the > potential" for that rupa. Until they have all arisen, the rupa, as an > experienced phenomenon does not yet exist - is not yet an actuality, but only a > growing potential. When all the conditions are in place, the rupa, including its > affective characteristic, arises as an actuality. > Now, of course, one can take two positions that, on the face of it, > are contradictory, but are possibly only two alternative ways of decribing the > same set of circumstances. One of these is that the full set of conditioning > phenomena have arisen, and thus the pleasant/unpleasant/neutral rupa determined > arises. The other is that with the arising of the full set of conditions, two > separate phenomena arise, one the rupa, and the other the feeling associated > with the experiencing of that rupa. Thus, one view says the set of conditions > determines the rupa, and the rupa determines the feeling. The other view says > the set of conditions determines the rupa, and the set of conditions also, > separately, determines the associated feeling. These are very close, and possibly > equivalent. What are *not* equivalent, however, are the views that a rupa, a > hardness, say, experienced, at one time (or by one being) is "the same" as a > hardness experienced at another time (or by another being). These are different > rupas, because rupas that are actualities, and just potentialities, are > experienced phenomena, not something independent of experience. Namarupa and > vi~n~nana are mutually dependent (as object and subject). I find the second > interpretation of a rupa having an affective character determinbed by that rupa as the > better view, because it identifies a rupa as a phenomenal reality rather than > as something independent of awareness. ===== Howard, you started this very interesting paragraph with the sentence, "As far as I'm concerned, a rupa that is pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral is, of necessity, an experienced rupa." Pleasant / unpleasant / neutral is, of course, the ways of classifying the cetasika "feeling". Rupa is classified using a different system: undesireable (anittha), moderately desireable (ittha) and extremely desireable (ati-ittha). "Desireableness" is an inherent quality of a rupa, independent of an observer: - It is the "desireableness" of the rupa that determines which sense door consciousness citta arises after the five sense adverting consciousness. An undesireable rupa is a condition for an akusala vipaka citta (citta 13-17). A desireable or extremely desireable rupa is a condition for an kusala vipaka citta (citta 20-24). - It is the "desireableness" of the rupa that determines which receiving citta arises after the sense door consciousness. An undesireable rupa is a condition for an akusala vipaka citta (citta 18). A desireable or extremely desireable rupa is a condition for an kusala vipaka citta (citta 25). - It is the "desireableness" of the rupa that determines which investigating citta arises after the receiving citta. An undesireable rupa is a condition for an akusala vipaka citta (citta 19). A desireable rupa is a condition for an kusala vipaka citta (citta 27). An extremely desireable rupa is a condition for an kusala vipaka citta (citta 26). - It is the "desireableness" of the rupa that determines which registration cittas arise after the javana cittas. An undesireable rupa is a condition for an akusala vipaka citta (citta 19). A desireable rupa is a condition for an kusala vipaka citta (citta 27). An extremely desireable rupa is a condition for an kusala vipaka citta (citta 39-46). When the "desireableness" characteristic of the rupa and the feeling of the citta which experiences this rupa do not match, this is a perversion of perception (sannavipallasa). In the section of the Sammohavinodani that you so ruthlessly :-) cut out of my earlier message, Buddhaghosa gave the example of Nibbana. Nibbana is inherently "extremely desireable". If one has an aversion towards Nibbana, then this is a perversion of perception (sannavipallasa). If this seems obvious for this one type of object (Nibbana), should it not hold true for other types of objects (even if we are unable to perceive the inherent characterisitics)? > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > As I view it, a pleasant taste from the eating of peacock flesh (or of > pig dung) is a different rupa than an unpleasant taste fromthe eating of > peacock flesh (or of pig dung), whether this involves the same being under > differnt circumstances or different beings. There is no independent, self-existent > taste of peacock flesh (or pig dung). > ------------------------------------------------------ Certainly, the flavour of the citta (pun intended: feeling / vedana, is sometimes called the flavour of the citta), of having a pleasant taste and having an unpleasant taste are quite different. However, because the flavour of pig dung and peacock flesh are inherently "undesireable", having a pleasant feeling when tasting is a perversion of perception (sannavipallasa). Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 26029 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 3:32pm Subject: Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Hi James, Thanks for your reply. --------------- J: > You will have to forgive me if I don't completely know your position on matters. When you use a lot of Pali in your posts, without definitions, I will skip the post. --------------- That's understandable; especially if someone is not completely enamoured by dsg. I like to read every word of every post. If it's not about what the Buddha taught, then I don't try too hard to follow it. If it is Dhamma but too technical for me, then I understand as best I can without expecting to remember much. That way, it's always a pleasure, never a burden. --------------- J;> I don't speak Pali and have no desire to learn it; ---------------- For the time being, I'll be content if I can identify absolute realities by their Pali names. Then it will be easier to distinguish things that are real (paramattha dhammas), from things that only seem to be real, concepts. --------------- J: > I think you have the wrong idea of what the Buddha was like. He wasn't like some kind of guru on the mountain top who people visited to get life's answers. When people traveled to see him they did it for predominately two reasons: to join his Sangha or to venerate him; not to discuss philosophy or dhamma with him. ------------ Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between. No doubt, most people learned Dhamma from the Buddha's disciples and formed their own Dhamma-study-groups. But a Buddha is a teacher; not a ruler and not an idol. ------------- J: > He didn't participate in colloquy. Granted, his lay visitors may ask a question or two, and he would give an answer or two, but anything more than that and they would have to ordain to get the answers. ------------- Here, you are very mistaken. For some, joining the order was appropriate; for others, it was inappropriate. But the full teaching was available to all -- as much as they could take. Many noble (ariyan) learners were laymen and many uninstructed fools were monks. ------------- J: > Then he would teach that person the PRACTICE of knowing the difference between sitting and sitting with mindfulness; standing and standing with mindfulness; lying and lying with mindfulness, etc. Words and philosophy of dhamma mean nothing without the practice. ---------------- Any 'Buddhist practice' accompanied by the notion of a self who can practise, is a contradiction in terms. The Middle Way is followed by wisdom (panna), not by the illusion of self (atta-sanna). I know you'll disagree, but it's only when we learn about paramattha dhammas that we begin to see a practice that is without self (anatta). We also realise there can never be a practice that is with self. There can be a practice -- a wrong practice -- with the illusion of self (atta-sanna), but in nothing is there ever a self. ----------------- J: > You know, the problem with you is that you think you need too many things explained. [......] All the explanation in the world isn't going to make you understand. You have to understand on your own, through your own efforts. That is what the Buddha taught. --------------- (In other words, "What the Buddha explained.") What you have said is true as far as it goes but, in between, you added the following: ----------------- J: > To understand, you just need to do it…start paying attention to your body. Granted, you aren't going to do it perfectly to begin with, you will have to monitor and adjust your technique as you go along; and there will be times when you will get tired, or restless, or have doubts (the hindrances), but you just need to keep doing it. Then you will understand…and only then. ------------------ Thanks for that advice which, I realise, is important to you. But is there any record of the Buddha's having taught it? It sounds a bit like jhana meditation [which is appropriate for some], but even so, if it is something that can be controlled -- something independent of conditions (paramattha dhammas) -- then it is definitely not what the Buddha taught. Kind regards, Ken H 26030 From: Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi, Rob - The following comments are in response to a couple points you make in the post of yours I copy at the end. A rupa that is desirable is one which is pleasant. Desire is a (worldling's) reaction to feeling. An arahant will not react with desire (or aversion). It is *feeling* that is determined by a rupa, not desire. Desire for what is pleasant will arise in the presence of defilements, but it is not inherent in the rupa. When a rupa of a sort that is normally pleasant is, instead, unpleasant, it is a rupa perverted by defilements - for example, intense bodily trauma felt as a pleasant phenomenon instead of as pain is a rupa perverted by defilements, perverted because it is not the norm and because it is not useful biologically (in terms of survival value). The pleasant rupa experienced by a masochist when slapped hard in the face is not the same sort of rupa you or I experience when so slapped. The intense stinging due to a slap in the face of a masochist *is* a pleasant, and hence desirable, rupa. Those who are not masochists do not experience such rupas. The stinging sensations they experience are unpleasant ones. Each rupa brings with it an affective flavor which is a characteristic of that rupa, and differences in that characterisic constitute part of what makes the rupas different. This is my take on the matter. With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/11/03 6:08:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard (and Sarah); > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > As far as I'm concerned, a rupa that is pleasant, > unpleasant, or > >neutral is, of necessity, an experienced rupa. Any other rupa is > unknown, and the > >notion of its having an affective flavor is meaningless. It is not > yet an > >actuality. As I see it, a group of phenomenal conditions that > serve as conditions > >for the arising of a rupa, when not yet all in place, can be > thought of as "the > >potential" for that rupa. Until they have all arisen, the rupa, as > an > >experienced phenomenon does not yet exist - is not yet an > actuality, but only a > >growing potential. When all the conditions are in place, the rupa, > including its > >affective characteristic, arises as an actuality. > > Now, of course, one can take two positions that, on the > face of it, > >are contradictory, but are possibly only two alternative ways of > decribing the > >same set of circumstances. One of these is that the full set of > conditioning > >phenomena have arisen, and thus the pleasant/unpleasant/neutral > rupa determined > >arises. The other is that with the arising of the full set of > conditions, two > >separate phenomena arise, one the rupa, and the other the feeling > associated > >with the experiencing of that rupa. Thus, one view says the set of > conditions > >determines the rupa, and the rupa determines the feeling. The > other view says > >the set of conditions determines the rupa, and the set of > conditions also, > >separately, determines the associated feeling. These are very > close, and possibly > >equivalent. What are *not* equivalent, however, are the views that > a rupa, a > >hardness, say, experienced, at one time (or by one being) is "the > same" as a > >hardness experienced at another time (or by another being). These > are different > >rupas, because rupas that are actualities, and just > potentialities, are > >experienced phenomena, not something independent of experience. > Namarupa and > >vi~n~nana are mutually dependent (as object and subject). I find > the second > >interpretation of a rupa having an affective character determinbed > by that rupa as the > >better view, because it identifies a rupa as a phenomenal reality > rather than > >as something independent of awareness. > > ===== > > Howard, you started this very interesting paragraph with the > sentence, "As far as I'm concerned, a rupa that is pleasant, > unpleasant, or neutral is, of necessity, an experienced rupa." > > Pleasant / unpleasant / neutral is, of course, the ways of > classifying the cetasika "feeling". > > Rupa is classified using a different system: undesireable (anittha), > moderately desireable (ittha) and extremely desireable (ati-ittha). > > "Desireableness" is an inherent quality of a rupa, independent of an > observer: > - It is the "desireableness" of the rupa that determines which sense > door consciousness citta arises after the five sense adverting > consciousness. An undesireable rupa is a condition for an akusala > vipaka citta (citta 13-17). A desireable or extremely desireable > rupa is a condition for an kusala vipaka citta (citta 20-24). > - It is the "desireableness" of the rupa that determines which > receiving citta arises after the sense door consciousness. An > undesireable rupa is a condition for an akusala vipaka citta (citta > 18). A desireable or extremely desireable rupa is a condition for an > kusala vipaka citta (citta 25). > - It is the "desireableness" of the rupa that determines which > investigating citta arises after the receiving citta. An > undesireable rupa is a condition for an akusala vipaka citta (citta > 19). A desireable rupa is a condition for an kusala vipaka citta > (citta 27). An extremely desireable rupa is a condition for an > kusala vipaka citta (citta 26). > - It is the "desireableness" of the rupa that determines which > registration cittas arise after the javana cittas. An undesireable > rupa is a condition for an akusala vipaka citta (citta 19). A > desireable rupa is a condition for an kusala vipaka citta (citta > 27). An extremely desireable rupa is a condition for an kusala > vipaka citta (citta 39-46). > > When the "desireableness" characteristic of the rupa and the feeling > of the citta which experiences this rupa do not match, this is a > perversion of perception (sannavipallasa). > > In the section of the Sammohavinodani that you so ruthlessly :-) cut > out of my earlier message, Buddhaghosa gave the example of Nibbana. > Nibbana is inherently "extremely desireable". If one has an aversion > towards Nibbana, then this is a perversion of perception > (sannavipallasa). If this seems obvious for this one type of object > (Nibbana), should it not hold true for other types of objects (even > if we are unable to perceive the inherent characterisitics)? > > >--------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > As I view it, a pleasant taste from the eating of peacock > flesh (or of > >pig dung) is a different rupa than an unpleasant taste fromthe > eating of > >peacock flesh (or of pig dung), whether this involves the same > being under > >differnt circumstances or different beings. There is no > independent, self-existent > >taste of peacock flesh (or pig dung). > >------------------------------------------------------ > > Certainly, the flavour of the citta (pun intended: feeling / vedana, > is sometimes called the flavour of the citta), of having a pleasant > taste and having an unpleasant taste are quite different. However, > because the flavour of pig dung and peacock flesh are > inherently "undesireable", having a pleasant feeling when tasting is > a perversion of perception (sannavipallasa). > > Comments? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26031 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 4:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > A rupa that is desirable is one which is pleasant. ===== Rob: I disagree. A given rupa is inherently desireable (ittha). If the citta which experiences this given rupa is accompanied by a pleasant mental feeling, then there is alignment and there is no perversion of perception. If the citta which experiences this given rupa is accompanied by an unpleasant mental feeling, then this is a case of a perversion of perception. ===== > Desire is a > (worldling's) reaction to feeling. An arahant will not react with desire (or > aversion). ===== Rob: An arahant will have no perversion of perception. When a rupa that is inherently disireable is presented to an Arahant, the flavour (vedana) accompanying the citta will always be pleasant. Unlike the worldling, the Arahant will not have craving or clinging to this pleasant feeling. ===== > It is *feeling* that is determined by a rupa, not desire. Desire for what > is pleasant will arise in the presence of defilements, but it is not inherent > in the rupa. ===== Rob: Feeling is only determined by rupa when there is no perversion of perception, desire is attachment to feeling. What is inherent in the rupa is desireableness ("ittha"). Perhaps the translation of the noun ittha as "desireable" causes you to associate it with the verb "desire" (lobha, tanha, etc.) ===== > When a rupa of a sort that is normally pleasant is, instead, > unpleasant, it is a rupa perverted by defilements ===== Rob: Rupa does not get perverted. Perversion of perception is a state of misalignment between the inherent quality of the rupa and flavour of the citta. ===== > for example, intense bodily > trauma felt as a pleasant phenomenon instead of as pain is a rupa perverted by > defilements, perverted because it is not the norm and because it is not useful > biologically (in terms of survival value). The pleasant rupa experienced by a > masochist when slapped hard in the face is not the same sort of rupa you or I > experience when so slapped. The intense stinging due to a slap in the face of > a masochist *is* a pleasant, and hence desirable, rupa. ===== Rob: When a masochist experiences pleasure when being slapped, this is an example of perverion of perception. Being slapped is inherently undesireable (anittha); when the masochist experiences pleasant mental feeling, this is a perversion of perception. ===== > Those who are not > masochists do not experience such rupas. The stinging sensations they experience > are unpleasant ones. Each rupa brings with it an affective flavor which is a > characteristic of that rupa, and differences in that characterisic constitute > part of what makes the rupas different. This is my take on the matter. ===== Metta, Rob M :-) 26032 From: bodhi2500 Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 4:53pm Subject: Re: Steve- khandhas, upadaanakkhandhas & B.Bodhi's comments Thanks Sarah. May Bhikkhu Bodhi gain some relief from his headaches.. May you all have a wonderful,fruitful time in Myanmar.. May all beings be happy.. :0) Mettaya Steve 26033 From: sue Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 4:35pm Subject: re: new member Dear Rob and Christine Thank you so much for answering my question in so much detail. Your answers indicate that self defence is ok provided you do not have the intention to kill and, presumably, try very hard to inflict as little damage as possible. Under English law self defence would include defending another person from harm, but would not include defending an animal. However, I believe that all beings are valuable and would certainly want to defend any animal under threat. Sometimes such a situation might involve breaking the law e.g. deliberately releasing an animal from a trapping cage knowing that the (human) trappers were planning to kill the animal (legally). I would want to follow my 'heart' and release it anyway regardless of consequences to myself. Do you have any thoughts on this. Metta Sue 26034 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:04pm Subject: Re: new member Hello Sue, and all, I think sometimes our motives and intentions are much more complex than we realise. For example, it is possible that there is no compassion for the animal in the trap, that we only think we are feeling this. It is possible there is pity (not a wholesome emotion in Buddhism) anger (I've learned very slowly that righteous anger is unwholesome in Buddhism) conceit (thinking one is a much kinder and a more ethical person than the hunter) aversion ( to seeing something harmed - not wholesome) and anxiety/fear (not wholesome). The hunter is what he is because of everything that has gone before (in this life and before) - he is creating new vipaka by his actions. The animal is what and where he is because of past conditions (in this life and before). And you are what and where you are because of past conditions. Complicated, isn't it? Personally, if I saw an animal suffering in a trap and I had the ability to release it, I believe I would do so (probably feeling a mixture of everything above). I'm not sure if that is specifically Buddhist. I believe that whatever presents itself to our sense doors, that should be dealt with ethically and compassionately. One thing I am slowly learning on dsg is that the present moment is all there is. When looked at in the light of the Teachings of anatta (no self/soul) and kamma (actions produce inevitable consequences) it becomes clear that by attaching stories to the momentary arisings, together with our emotional reactions and perceptions, we create more consequences in the future. But still, even if one understands anatta (which I only get an occasional glimmer of - that in reality there is no person, no animal, no hunter, no trap) - how are we to live? I think still with kindness, justice, compassion and ethics. metta and peace, Christine p.s. My Great Dane Cross says g'day to your whippets. :-0 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sue wrote: > Dear Rob and Christine > > Thank you so much for answering my question in so much detail. > > Your answers indicate that self defence is ok provided you do not have the intention to kill and, presumably, try very hard to inflict as little damage as possible. > > Under English law self defence would include defending another person from harm, but would not include defending an animal. However, I believe that all beings are valuable and would certainly want to defend any animal under threat. Sometimes such a situation might involve breaking the law e.g. deliberately releasing an animal from a trapping cage knowing that the (human) trappers were planning to kill the animal (legally). > > I would want to follow my 'heart' and release it anyway regardless of consequences to myself. Do you have any thoughts on this. > > Metta > > Sue 26035 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 7:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Very good Rob, One can see this forum is worthwhile when someone comes to see through a past wrongview. This understanding helps to distinguish more between nama and rupa and will support direct insight into the difference. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: >> > Howard, you started this very interesting paragraph with the > sentence, "As far as I'm concerned, a rupa that is pleasant, > unpleasant, or neutral is, of necessity, an experienced rupa." > > Pleasant / unpleasant / neutral is, of course, the ways of > classifying the cetasika "feeling". > > Rupa is classified using a different system: undesireable (anittha), > moderately desireable (ittha) and extremely desireable (ati-ittha). > > "Desireableness" is an inherent quality of a rupa, independent of an > observer: > - It is the "desireableness" of the rupa that determines which sense > door consciousness citta arises after the five sense adverting > consciousness. An undesireable rupa is a condition for an akusala > vipaka citta (citta 13-17). A desireable or extremely desireable > rupa is a condition for an kusala vipaka citta (citta 20-24). > - It is the "desireableness" of the rupa that determines which > receiving citta arises after the sense door consciousness. An > undesireable rupa is a condition for an akusala vipaka citta (citta > 18). A desireable or extremely desireable rupa is a condition for an > kusala vipaka citta (citta 25). > - It is the "desireableness" of the rupa that determines which > investigating citta arises after the receiving citta. An > undesireable rupa is a condition for an akusala vipaka citta (citta > 19). A desireable rupa is a condition for an kusala vipaka citta > (citta 27). An extremely desireable rupa is a condition for an > kusala vipaka citta (citta 26). > - It is the "desireableness" of the rupa that determines which > registration cittas arise after the javana cittas. An undesireable > rupa is a condition for an akusala vipaka citta (citta 19). A > desireable rupa is a condition for an kusala vipaka citta (citta > 27). An extremely desireable rupa is a condition for an kusala > vipaka citta (citta 39-46). > > When the "desireableness" characteristic of the rupa and the feeling > of the citta which experiences this rupa do not match, this is a > perversion of perception (sannavipallasa). > > In the section of the Sammohavinodani that you so ruthlessly :-) cut > out of my earlier message, Buddhaghosa gave the example of Nibbana. > Nibbana is inherently "extremely desireable". If one has an aversion > towards Nibbana, then this is a perversion of perception > (sannavipallasa). If this seems obvious for this one type of object > (Nibbana), should it not hold true for other types of objects (even > if we are unable to perceive the inherent characterisitics)? > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > As I view it, a pleasant taste from the eating of peacock > flesh (or of > > pig dung) is a different rupa than an unpleasant taste fromthe > eating of > > peacock flesh (or of pig dung), whether this involves the same > being under > > differnt circumstances or different beings. There is no > independent, self-existent > > taste of peacock flesh (or pig dung). > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Certainly, the flavour of the citta (pun intended: feeling / vedana, > is sometimes called the flavour of the citta), of having a pleasant > taste and having an unpleasant taste are quite different. However, > because the flavour of pig dung and peacock flesh are > inherently "undesireable", having a pleasant feeling when tasting is > a perversion of perception (sannavipallasa). > > Comments? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 26036 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 7:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Larry, > Sukin: "Are you saying that the rise and fall of khandhas is equivalent > to a person rising and falling?" Larry: > I would say there is rise and fall of a person and also continuity of a > person. I think we need to be careful here. Either there is something which continues or there isn't. As you know we are talking about ultimate realities which can be experienced by sati and panna. I think, it is fair to accept `person' as a conventional reality, but then one must also know that this `person' cannot be experience through any doorway except by means of thinking. And thinking is ultimately sanna, vitakka and vichara performing their functions and these can be known one by one by panna, whereas `person' can only be object of citta. I don't see any problem accepting simultaneously both conventional and ultimate reality. But I think it is very important to know that one is real and the other is not and to be clear- cut about it. To keep at the back of the mind, the possibility of a person `in', `apart' or `of' the khandhas, is dangerous. > I was thinking of the dependent arising formula. At the stage of > birth enough khandhas have come together in a particular way to form a > person. A person grows old, gets sick, and dies. Then another person > continuity arises with the whole baggage of the previous person continuity. I find the use of concept of birth, old age, sickness and death of conventional `person' quite OK in normal everyday use and also perhaps when trying to describe Buddhist concepts to the uninitiated. But I think when trying to understand the core of the Buddha's message, this should be seen as just conventional expressions of what takes place unrevealed to ignorance, at the ultimate level. The dependent arising, as it is being so hard to grasp, I think it best to view it in terms of causes and conditions involving ultimate realities. Otherwise it can I fear, crystallize into some implicit belief in something lasting and moving from one life to another. I think especially, in light of the fact that the level that we understand Buddha's teachings in this life is held mostly by the sanna of what has been heard and read. With this gone and rebirth as a new being (conventionally speaking ;-)) takes place, what is left is the accumulated ignorance/understanding, and absolutely *no* memory of what has been heard in this lifetime. So it is imperative that we get it right, not in the future, but NOW! But I guess this is what each one of us is trying to do through the discussions here on DSG. ;-) > The same goes for groups of people but there isn't > necessarily a continuity between the dissolution of one group and the > arising of another. OK, if we see that this person, is in a way no more real than `groups of people' and `government', and that all that really exists, is just the khandhas, then I guess there is little problem. But if governments are seen to be real and one really believes in their arising, then little can be expected that a person will be accepted only as a convention. Larry, I understand that you compare only to illustrate the meaning of arising of `compounds' in response to my original question, that surely you don't believe that `governments' have any objective reality. However, I believe that being as yet so weak in understanding, wrong comparisons can lead to more doubt. And this may be what is behind the comparison with Karma, as you state below. ( I am just speculating, trying to find a solution, hope you don't mind my being presumptive…?! Or maybe I am even creating a situation in order that my own views have better effect :- /) > But this kamma stuff is just conceptual. No one sees > it arising from seed to fruition, one life to another. Right? I think the wonderful thing about Abhidhamma, is that it makes clear the distinction between kamma and vipakka. To me it makes perfect sense that kamma result is just these experience through the five senses, whereas the rest is new kamma (pattha or not). So the concept of kamma, though never experienced directly in terms of one cause producing particular results, is one that I feel very comfortable and at home with. In fact, I find it less of a problem than many of the conventional concepts used to describe experiences in every day life! Vipakka is experienced directly all the time. And kamma being precisely, intention, can be experienced, with the exception of feeling, as more real than any of the concepts you state below. > It's all about what you can see arising and falling. You can see a > feeling arising, a person arising, a building arising, an argument > arising, and a government arising. An argument arising and falling!:-) Metta, Sukin. 26037 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 7:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Victor, > I would say that the Buddha's teaching is not about what concept is > and what reality is, it is not about seeing the dichotomy between > these two. Discussions along those lines of inquiry can be > fascinating; nevertheless, those discussion are irrelevant to the > Buddha's teaching. I think that we can never feel a hundred percent sure what the Buddha really meant. But we do try our best and the important thing is that we do discuss. No discussion, especially those here on DSG are two dimensional, we are always reminded about what really matters, which is the practice of Satipatthana. So sometimes it may seem that a discussion thread is dwelling in mere argument about `concept vs. reality, but I believe that everyone involved knows that the practice is the important part. And though you may not find the Buddha arguing about this (and I don't know for sure), it may be due to the fact of the difference between the panna of the people then and now. Those people I believe *did* have the panna to know their experiences from moment to moment, only they associated all that with a `soul' or `aatman'. Their ability to discern kusala from akusala was already very highly developed. It is for this same reason that I think we all need the Abhidhamma to guide us. I am impressed with people like you, who manage to get so much from the Sutta alone while rejecting the Abhidhamma. I would not have had half the understanding were I to do the same. However with the help of Abhidhamma, I have gradually come to see much limitation even in those people's understanding whom I once admired greatly, including well known Bhikkhus. In the study of Abhidhamma, one comes to realize that every experience can be identified as one ultimate reality or the other performing its function. So Victor, no matter how fascinated one may feel while discussing realities and concepts, even this `fascination' can be identified and known. And this is the practice which everyone on DSG gives top priority. ;-) And as far as relevance to the Buddha's teachings is concerned, I think it is up to each to decide what needs to be clarified and from which perspective one then reads even the Suttas. And here I think, without knowing about the difference between concept and reality, it is an almost impossible task to get the Buddha's teachings right. > Regarding mindfulness, I would refer to the discourses > > Anapanasati Sutta > Mindfulness of Breathing > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html > > Kayagata-sati Sutta > Mindfulness Immersed in the Body > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html > > and > > Satipatthana Sutta > Frames of Reference > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html > > Regarding causal relations in the context of what the Buddha taught, > I would refer to the discourses in > > Nidana Vagga (samyuttas XII-XXI) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html#Nidana My hard drive conked out since Thursday and I have quite a few posts to catch up, so I didn't bother to read your references. But I did randomly pick out one from the last link, the Kosambi Sutta. This is one small part of it, "Then Ven. Pavittha said to Ven. Musila, "Musila, my friend, putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'From birth as a requisite condition come aging & death'?" All this sounds perfect and I believe in applying the understanding to all situations no matter what. And there is indeed a temptation to consciously *try* to `put aside' conviction, preference, tradition etc. But it would be a mistake to think that this can be done in terms of a `self' trying to do it. It is the function of panna of the appropriate level, which can do it. And this panna must be so keen as to recognize that indeed this is what is going on from moment to moment. Here is one example in my opinion, of where without the Abhidhamma, one might be drawn to wrong practice. I was reflecting yesterday, about how outsiders especially those of other religions, who try to find common ground between religions and conclude that it essence all of them are the same. That with a `self' who is trying to be good or to understand, there is inevitably a `residue' of wrong view accumulated in the consciousness, no matter how well intentioned the person is. And this residue accumulates and can lead the person to all sorts of akusala deeds when conditions allow. And this can happen to Buddhists as much as anyone else. I think therefore that it is very important to view experiences as ultimate realities performing their functions and not be fooled by the appearance of people and things. But I know you are not convinced, and I just keep writing. ;-) Metta, Sukin. 26038 From: Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 7:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Steve- khandhas, upadaanakkhandhas & B.Bodhi's comments B. Bodhi: "I then turned to the Dhammasangani enumeration of 'saasava dhammas' and 'anaasava dhammas', and 'upaadaaniya dhammas' and 'na upaadaaniya dhammas'. I found that Dhs classifies the arahant's ordinary cittas and cetasikas under 'saasava' and 'upaadaaniya'. The only khandhas considered 'anaasava' and 'na upaadaaniya' are the mental khandhas (cittas and cetasikas) of the four maggas and phalas. All rupas are tainted and subject to clinging." Hi all, Tilmann Vetter, in his book "The 'Khandha Passages' in the Vinayapitaka and the four main Nikayas" translates upadana as "appropriation". I take this to mean appropriation as me or mine. If so, this makes "self view" an important link in the dependent arising formula. This also makes sense in terms of the above. All of the khandhas are subject to appropriation as me or mine except for the Path and Fruition cittas and cetasikas. Thus, they are upadana khandha. Rupa is tainted because it is subject to being appropriated. Larry 26039 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 8:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Larry, I just realized that I misunderstood your meaning. I think that by the statement below, Larry: > I would say there is rise and fall of a person and also continuity of a person. What you meant was to the effect, that cittas rise and fall, but each citta passes on to the next citta all the accumulated past. So though citta rises and falls,the stream continues. Sorry for the mislead. But of course, my objection about seeing 'person' any where still stands. And I don't want to rewrite a response because I don't have any time right now. :-/ Hope you don't mind. Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Larry, > > > Sukin: "Are you saying that the rise and fall of khandhas is > equivalent > > to a person rising and falling?" > > Larry: > > I would say there is rise and fall of a person and also continuity > of a > > person. > > I think we need to be careful here. Either there is something which > continues or there isn't. As you know we are talking about ultimate > realities which can be experienced by sati and panna. I think, it is > fair to accept `person' as a conventional reality, but then one must > also know that this `person' cannot be experience through any > doorway except by means of thinking. And thinking is ultimately > sanna, vitakka and vichara performing their functions and these can > be known one by one by panna, whereas `person' can only be object of > citta. > I don't see any problem accepting simultaneously both conventional > and ultimate reality. But I think it is very important to know that > one is real and the other is not and to be clear- cut about it. To > keep at the back of the mind, the possibility of a > person `in', `apart' or `of' the khandhas, is dangerous. > > > I was thinking of the dependent arising formula. At the stage of > > birth enough khandhas have come together in a particular way to > form a > > person. A person grows old, gets sick, and dies. Then another > person > > continuity arises with the whole baggage of the previous person > continuity. > > I find the use of concept of birth, old age, sickness and death of > conventional `person' quite OK in normal everyday use and also > perhaps when trying to describe Buddhist concepts to the > uninitiated. But I think when trying to understand the core of the > Buddha's message, this should be seen as just conventional > expressions of what takes place unrevealed to ignorance, at the > ultimate level. The dependent arising, as it is being so hard to > grasp, I think it best to view it in terms of causes and conditions > involving ultimate realities. Otherwise it can I fear, crystallize > into some implicit belief in something lasting and moving from one > life to another. I think especially, in light of the fact that the > level that we understand Buddha's teachings in this life is held > mostly by the sanna of what has been heard and read. With this gone > and rebirth as a new being (conventionally speaking ;-)) takes > place, what is left is the accumulated ignorance/understanding, and > absolutely *no* memory of what has been heard in this lifetime. So > it is imperative that we get it right, not in the future, but NOW! > But I guess this is what each one of us is trying to do through the > discussions here on DSG. ;-) > > > The same goes for groups of people but there isn't > > necessarily a continuity between the dissolution of one group and > the > > arising of another. > > OK, if we see that this person, is in a way no more real > than `groups of people' and `government', and that all that really > exists, is just the khandhas, then I guess there is little problem. > But if governments are seen to be real and one really believes in > their arising, then little can be expected that a person will be > accepted only as a convention. > Larry, I understand that you compare only to illustrate the meaning > of arising of `compounds' in response to my original question, that > surely you don't believe that `governments' have any objective > reality. However, I believe that being as yet so weak in > understanding, wrong comparisons can lead to more doubt. > And this may be what is behind the comparison with Karma, as you > state below. ( I am just speculating, trying to find a solution, > hope you don't mind my being presumptive…?! Or maybe I am even > creating a situation in order that my own views have better effect :- > /) > > > > But this kamma stuff is just conceptual. No one sees > > it arising from seed to fruition, one life to another. Right? > > I think the wonderful thing about Abhidhamma, is that it makes clear > the distinction between kamma and vipakka. To me it makes perfect > sense that kamma result is just these experience through the five > senses, whereas the rest is new kamma (pattha or not). So the > concept of kamma, though never experienced directly in terms of one > cause producing particular results, is one that I feel very > comfortable and at home with. In fact, I find it less of a problem > than many of the conventional concepts used to describe experiences > in every day life! > Vipakka is experienced directly all the time. And kamma being > precisely, intention, can be experienced, with the exception of > feeling, as more real than any of the concepts you state below. > > > It's all about what you can see arising and falling. You can see a > > feeling arising, a person arising, a building arising, an argument > > arising, and a government arising. > > An argument arising and falling!:-) > > Metta, > Sukin. 26040 From: Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 8:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, I am just following the teaching on "sabhava". "Arising" is the one and only criterion for reality. Arising is impermanence. Impermanence is combining and separating. Without combining into combinations there is no impermanence. Combining and separating is also the basis of cause and condition. A person is a combination, impermanent, not self, ultimately undesirable. You can promote the undesirability of people or governments by denying their existence but there may be a problem with credibility. It depends on what you can believe. How's that? Larry 26041 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Oct 11, 2003 11:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, In terms of the noble eightfold path, the Buddha taught more than satipatthana. While right mindfulness/samma sati matters, it is only part of the Buddha's teaching of the noble eightfold path. In the discourses Satipatthana Sutta*, Anapanasati Sutta**, and Kayagata-sati Sutta***, the Buddha taught the practice and development of mindfulness. The Buddha's teaching on mindfulness is not about what is reality and what is concept. Peace, Victor * http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html ** http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html *** http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 26042 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 0:57am Subject: Re: new member Hi Sue, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sue wrote: > Under English law self defence would include defending another person from harm, but would not include defending an animal. However, I believe that all beings are valuable and would certainly want to defend any animal under threat. Sometimes such a situation might involve breaking the law e.g. deliberately releasing an animal from a trapping cage knowing that the (human) trappers were planning to kill the animal (legally). > > I would want to follow my 'heart' and release it anyway regardless of consequences to myself. Do you have any thoughts on this. According to Buddhism, the primarly factor determining the "kammic weight" is the intensity of volition involved. A thought, word or deed with strong intention leaves a deep track in the mind. The commentaries list other factors that determine the kammic weight of killing: large animals more serious than small animals, humans more serious than animals, Virtuous being more serious than non-virtuous being. I expect that the size of the animal relates to the effort to kill it. For example, I doubt any of us could kill an elephant with our bare hands. As you can see, killing animals also produces bad kamma. A job that involves killing of animals is wrong livelihood. Right livelihood is concerned with ensuring that one earns one's living in a righteous way. For a lay disciple the Buddha teaches that wealth should be gained in accordance with certain standards: - Acquired only by legal means, not illegally - Acquired peacefully, without coercion or violence - Acquired honestly, not by trickery or deceit - Acquired in ways which do not entail suffering for others The Buddha mentions five specific kinds of livelihood which bring harm to others and are therefore to be avoided: dealing in weapons, in living beings (including raising animals for slaughter as well as slave trade and prostitution), in meat production and butchery, in poisons and in intoxicants. He further names several dishonest means of gaining wealth which fall under wrong livelihood: practicing deceit, treachery, soothsaying, trickery and usury. Any occupation that requires violation of right speech and right action is a wrong form of livelihood, but other occupations, such as selling weapons or intoxicants, may not violate those factors and yet be wrong because of their consequences for others. Of course, moral law (as taught by the Buddha) does not always align with our social system; discussions of kamma will likely have no impact on the traffic cop about to issue you a speeding ticket :-). Sue, Christine and I are intentionally giving you long answers to see if we can prompt more questions. I am sure that your questions are of interest to many of the lurkers. Please keep asking! Metta, Rob M :-) 26043 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: ... > Yes! I do agree with everything you said. I would even go further > and say, traditionally, sila is developed before concentration. One > might ask, why develop concentration at all? How do you see this? You ask, Why develop concentration at all? Good question. Back to something we discussed earlier. Concentration itself has no specific moral (kusala or akusala) quality. It assumes the moral quality of the mind-consciousness that it accompanies. So for concentration to be kusala, the mind-state (citta) must be kusala first. When the Buddha praised concentration, he was praising the development of kusala (samatha or vipassana, depending on the context). Some people see the development of concentration as a means of developing samatha. I believe the thinking is that concentration leads to calm, and calm to absence of akusala and hence to kusala, and that it's not necessary for the initial concentration to be kusala since, once the mind settles down, calm will follow anyway. I think this view is mistaken. If the initial concentration is not kusala (i.e. is akusala) any calm that results will only be *apparent* calm and will lead only to more akusala. Kusala is not something that arises as a result of a particular practice being followed. But, as we have discussed, kusala can and does arise naturally in our daily lives and at such times there is the opportunity for its further development, given the other necessary supporting factors, and if this occurs then there will be the development of kusala concentration too. Jon 26044 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "Thus tranquility as a cetasika has very little to do with the > warm, fuzzy feeling we conventionally associate with tranquility." > > Hi Jon, > > What then is the experience of tranquility? > > Larry In general terms, the experience of any moment of kusala would be the experience of tranquillity, since all moments of kusala are accompanied by tranquillity cetasika. To repeat something from my post of a minute ago, kusala can and does arise naturally in our daily lives and at such times there is the opportunity for the characteristic of tranquillity to be experienced. Is the experience of tranquillity something you aspire to? Jon 26045 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 2:28am Subject: for Purnomo Dear Purnomo, I hope you are reading dsg still. I was thinking of you today with metta and karuna. A year since the Bali Bombing. Just wondering how you, your family and friends are getting on. May you all be safe and protected, May you all be healthy and strong, May you all be happy of heart and mind, May you all live with ease and well-being. metta and peace, Christine 26046 From: monomuni Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 0:46am Subject: Optimizing Invitation ! Dear friends: 'Invitation Day': The Buddhist Paravana Ceremony This recently passed fullmoon Poya day (9-1 oct) marked the end of the rains retreat & is called the 'Invitation Day' = Paravana. There each Bhikkhu after seniority on his knees invites his brothers in the Noble Sangha to mention any seen, heard or suspected errors he may unaware have made during the 3 months rains retreat. He humbly repeats that invitation thrice! That is selfsaid to mutual advantage in any community as all hidden misconduct, then may be thoroughly cleared. Imagine if this sublime habbit spread to other workplaces & even Egroups: To Work focused & composed in silence for 3 months each autum & then ask your colleaques humbly with the forehead touching the floor if you have made any errors, they may have seen, heard or suspected ... Starting with the most senior leader down to the youngest assistant. It would rapidly optimize any organization & stabilize any society. Good is this Noble life: This morning we monks, young as old, helped each other cleaning up after breakfast without a single word. Such a group in smooth & even Harmony lives in sweet Comfort ... Almost organic, open & joyous is being in such ensemble ... Friendship is truly GREATEST The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Bhikkhu Samahita Cypress Hut, Gangamulla Bambarella, Tawalantenna 20838. Central Province. SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... WWW: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Ah, happily do we live without hate amongst the hateful; amidst hateful men we dwell unhating. Random Dhammapada Verse 197 26047 From: Sarah Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: new member Hi Sue (& Christine & RobM), I think the others have given very helpful and wise comments to your queeries as in just one extract below. I'm so glad Julie encouraged you out of lurk mode and hope we hear plenty from you both. I think Chris gave lots of other helpful advice about ignoring posts which are too technical (i.e don't seem relevant to your needs for now) and to keep starting your own threads;-) Metta and welcome, Sarah p.s where do you live in England? I grew up in Sussex (mostly). There are a few other Brits around, but they tend to be rathr quiet. ================================= --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sue, and all, > > I think sometimes our motives and intentions are much more complex > than we realise. For example, it is possible that there is no > compassion for the animal in the trap, that we only think we are > feeling this. It is possible there is pity (not a wholesome emotion > in Buddhism) anger (I've learned very slowly that righteous anger is > unwholesome in Buddhism) conceit (thinking one is a much kinder and > a more ethical person than the hunter) aversion ( to seeing > something harmed - not wholesome) and anxiety/fear (not wholesome). > The hunter is what he is because of everything that has gone before > (in this life and before) - he is creating new vipaka by his > actions. The animal is what and where he is because of past > conditions (in this life and before). And you are what and where you > are because of past conditions. Complicated, isn't it? 26048 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] luminous mind Dear Sarah, op 11-10-2003 08:23 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Dear Nina & All, > > B.Bodhi’s reply: >(snipped). To > me, the idea that 'luminosity' is an intrinsic quality of citta, > consisting in its ability to "illuminate" objects, seems more convincing > than the idea that pabhassaram cittam refers to the 'bhavanga,' a concept > that comes to > prominence only in a considerably later strata of Buddhist literature. > Still, the fact that the statement is made without elucidation in the > Nikaya text may imply that it was intended to be suggestive rather than > definitive, and thus should not be pinned down to one exclusive > interpretation.< N: I agree that it can pertain to citta which clearly knows an object, illumines an object. In the text about bhavanga-citta it pertains to that specific citta, but it can certainly pertain to citta in general. However, as I see it, the bhavangacitta is not a concept introduced later on, it is clearly explained in the Abhidhamma and in the commentaries which go back to the ancient sources. Nina. 26049 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 22, 23 Hi Larry, I am so much in the middle of studying and reading these sections, I would rather not answer now. It really is necessary to be very precise, we cannot guess as to the meanings. I try later on, Nina. op 11-10-2003 01:32 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "When anyone reviews that meaning, any knowledge of his, falling within > the category (pabheda) concerned with meaning, is the "discrimination of > meaning"." 26050 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Verse On The Buddha's Last Lunch: Anaadara? To Nina, Derek ... Dear Suan, Thank you very much for a very convincing, clear and interesting explanation of the sutta with the help of the grammar. I print them all out to keep. Is it a good idea to forward your explanations to Pali yahoo list? Such a help to go deeper into grammar, and also to realize the importance of grammar. Many would be interested, I think. The dedication and conscientiousness of the commentators and teachers of old really is inspiring. It exhorts us to be very precise in the Pali language and its grammar. With great appreciation, Nina. op 11-10-2003 17:58 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Nina, please pay attention to the predicate "tena bhagavantam > parivisi". The pronoun in the instrumental case ( tena ) refers to > the terder pork cuisine (neuter noun in nominative case in the sense > of being with, i.e, the instrumental case). > > We could break up the compound statement "yam --- ahosi --, tena --- > parivisi" as follows. > > 1. There was the tender pork cuisine already prepared and cooked. > 2. Cunda fed the Buddha with that. > > Therefore, the Buddha had eaten lunch WITH tender pork cuisine. (snipped) 26051 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:44am Subject: Re: Optimizing Invitation ! Dear Bhikkhu Samahita, This "invitation day" sounds constructive and helpful -- for bhikkhus. Curiously, the Chinese communists tried this same ritual during the land reform in the 1940's and 1950's. It was a disaster. Millions of people got beaten to a bloody pulp or killed for the sins that their enemies and rivals had the formal, officially sanctioned opportunity to point out. It was enormously damaging to the morale of the Party, one of the few organizations that had the courage [or naïveté] to attempt something like this in a "normal" population rather than a specially-selected one. Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "monomuni" wrote: > Dear friends: > > > 'Invitation Day': The Buddhist Paravana Ceremony > > > This recently passed fullmoon Poya day (9-1 oct) marked the end > of the rains retreat & is called the 'Invitation Day' = Paravana. > There each Bhikkhu after seniority on his knees invites his brothers > in the Noble Sangha to mention any seen, heard or suspected errors > he may unaware have made during the 3 months rains retreat. > He humbly repeats that invitation thrice! > That is selfsaid to mutual advantage in any community as all > hidden misconduct, then may be thoroughly cleared. > Imagine if this sublime habbit spread to other workplaces & even Egroups: > To Work focused & composed in silence for 3 months each autum & then ask > your colleaques humbly with the forehead touching the floor if you > have made any errors, they may have seen, heard or suspected ... > Starting with the most senior leader down to the youngest assistant. > It would rapidly optimize any organization & stabilize any society. > > Good is this Noble life: This morning we monks, young as old, helped > each other cleaning up after breakfast without a single word. > > Such a group in smooth & even Harmony lives in sweet Comfort ... > Almost organic, open & joyous is being in such ensemble ... > > > Friendship is truly GREATEST > The entire Motivation behind > all of the Noble Life. Yeah! > > > > Bhikkhu Samahita > Cypress Hut, Gangamulla > Bambarella, Tawalantenna 20838. > Central Province. SRI LANKA. > Email: monomuni@m... > WWW: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct > > > : - ] > > > > -- > A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ > Ah, happily do we live without hate amongst the hateful; amidst hateful men > we dwell unhating. > Random Dhammapada Verse 197 26052 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Verse On The Buddha's Last Lunch: Anaadara? To Nina, Derek ... Dear Nina and all Nina wrote: "Is it a good idea to forward your explanations to Pali yahoo list? Such a help to go deeper into grammar, and also to realize the importance of grammar. Many would be interested, I think." Please go ahead with forwarding the post to Pali list. When you do, please kindly correct the spelling mistakes in the following passages. The wrong spelling is < genetive case > The correct spelling is < genitive case > 1. "As you can spot in the Pali, by looking at the verbal adjectival predicate "bhuttaavissa", we can rewrite the term "bhagavato" as "bhagavassa" and know that the "-to" suffix in "bhagavato" indicates the noun in the < genetive case >." 2. "The above translations are exact and literal by following the strict grammartical rule for Anaadara syntax with < genetive case >." When I wrote my posts very late at night, I became sleepy and made spelling mistakes. And as I wanted to go to bed sooner, I did not carefully check spellings again. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Suan, Thank you very much for a very convincing, clear and interesting explanation of the sutta with the help of the grammar. I print them all out to keep. Is it a good idea to forward your explanations to Pali yahoo list? Such a help to go deeper into grammar, and also to realize the importance of grammar. Many would be interested, I think. The dedication and conscientiousness of the commentators and teachers of old really is inspiring. It exhorts us to be very precise in the Pali language and its grammar. With great appreciation, Nina. 26053 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 8:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY CHAPTER THREE !!!! Dear Nina: Nina:" Dear Icaro, > I appreciate the truth this diary contains and the very lively style. > Thank you. But it is not yet the real bootcamp? It will be worse, illfitting > boots, disagreeable food, bad climate, etc." -------------------------------------------------------------------- Geeez... it´s good to be appreciate by others!!!! But my free time is too narrow... and yes: the real bootcamp - disaggreable foods, bad climate, Jogging, Fitness and Calisthenics with that terrible military tunes, all the real infantry training are yet to come, perhaps at the November´s second week. But my pistol shooting training was real good! I don´t know if I will get time to my Dhamma Diary´s next chapter... But it will continue, of course!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina:" Let me think of something to cheer you up. Metta is the feet of the world, > without metta how could we live? We have to help each other. You wrote about > the wheel of samsara. We are all in the same boat. You and your colleagues > have to depend on one another especially when conditions get worse. So, this > situation has something positive also: it makes you realize the benefit of > metta." ------------------------------------------------------------------ I do feel really good...despite the food!!!! All of us at the barracks are really newbies at military life. The vision and understanding of Metta and mutual help are our goal and many of us are trying really hard to get such standards - but despite this remark right effects sometimes arise easily: I never touched up a Parabellum 9mm shotgun before on my life and my first shooting stand was very good - I was allowed to pass to the advanced shooting school! Samatha, ekagatta, a deep breath, the Parabellum 9mm stands firm at my hands and... bullseye!!!!!!!!!!!!!! With plenty of Metta, Ícaro 26054 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 8:53am Subject: ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY CHAPTER FOUR !!!! Take a deep breath... Samatha...Ekagatta... My finger touches the trigger and... ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY CHAPTER FOUR !!!! "I´ve been working on the SHEEP road, working night and day..." Indeed!!!! I am overburied to the hat top with tons of work at the barracks! All the ordnances, rules, military law... every aspect of military life demands time to be assimilated. But fortunately the practical training with handguns was excellent!!! The Parabellum 9mm is at my hands. The target is before my eyes and the shooting instructor is shouting his instructions...when an object is presented to the mind through one of the five sense-doors, the course of cognition or thought-process runs as follows: 1. Past Bhavanga 2. Vibrating Bhavanga 3. Arrest Bhavanga 4. Sense-door Consciousness either Pancadvaravajjana or Manodvaravajjana 5. Sense-Consciousness - Santirana 6. Receiving Consciousness - Sampaticchana 7. Investing Consciousness (the beginning of mind consciousness see Santirana) 8. Determining Consciousness (Shooters! Aiming the gun! Fire at will!) 9. Impulsion (Nos. 9 to 15 - where kamma is produced, where moral or immoral consciousness arises - Cf. Javana´s definition)- Bang! 10. Impulsion - Bang! 11. Impulsion - Bang! 12. Impulsion - Bang! 13. Impulsion - Bang! 14. Impulsion - Bang! 15. Impulsion - Bang! 16. Registering Consciousness (see Tadalammana)- (gosh!!! I am firing well, just at the target´s centre!!!!) 17. Registering Consciousness - the doughboy at my side is missing ALL the rounds! I am afraid he will shoot at my target...or at ME!!!! Fortunately I hit all my rounds, and that´s stimulating for my illusory ego: when the mind receives stimulation through one of the sense's the thought proccess runs as above. The mind then rises with a mental impression ( Wow! I succeded to get a good score!!!), this time there is only one bhavanga, and then step 4 jumps to the Javanas or Impulsion and runs for seven moments (corrections are welcome!!! I must confess that this scheme runs a bit mechanically for me: one can get a good analogy for a shooting sequence but at other life´s aspects such remarks must be investigated on) and on to Tadalammana or the Registering Consciousness... the mind then slips into bhavanga and can arise again with a new image ( I had passed from the mental photo of the target to the vision of the gun´s violent recoil, and after this I get the same target mental photo) - this new image is often falsely considered as the old one, but in truth that image is gone and new one has arisen. A good rendition to Heraclius´ philosophical stands: reading about Military Law and ordnances is almost so dull! Let´s check out other buddhistic element classification: Conditions for Pañca-viññaa to arise : Cakkhu 1. visual organ 2. visual object 3. light 4. attention Sota 1. audiory organ 2. sounds 3. space 4. attention Ghaana 1. olfactory organ 2. smells 3. air 4. attention Jivhaa 1. gustory 2. tastes 3. water 4. attention Kaaya 1. tactile organ 2. tactile objects 3. earth 4. attention That´s a good table of correlated ideas, like the Eliphas Levi´s or Aleister Crowley´s. One can get at this issue as far as a good and patient reader can do... but my free time is short! Let´s finish this chapter with the 3 mind-elements: 1. sense-door consciousness which is consciousness 2. moral receiving consciousness (Kusala) 3. immoral receiving consciousness (Akusala). And you all, members of this noble roundtable of Dhamma students, won´t spend better your precious time if you stay tuned for the next chapter of the ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY!!! ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY, CHAPTER FIVE: "A black SHEEP among white ones and a white LAMB between black partners don´t change the order of trucks over a highway!" Mettaya, Ícaro 26055 From: sue Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:49am Subject: re: new member Dear Christine, Rob, and Sarah Thank you all for your very kind and helpful messages. Christine wrote: "I think sometimes our motives and intentions are much more complex than we realise. For example, it is possible that there is no compassion for the animal in the trap, that we only think we are feeling this. It is possible there is pity (not a wholesome emotion in Buddhism) anger (I've learned very slowly that righteous anger is unwholesome in Buddhism) conceit (thinking one is a much kinder and a more ethical person than the hunter) aversion ( to seeing something harmed - not wholesome) and anxiety/fear (not wholesome). The hunter is what he is because of everything that has gone before (in this life and before) - he is creating new vipaka by his actions. The animal is what and where he is because of past conditions (in this life and before). And you are what and where you are because of past conditions. Complicated, isn't it? " I understand most of what you say and accept that one should not be angry towards the hunter and neither should one be conceited. But I am confused as to the difference between aversion to the animal being harmed (unwholesome), pity for the animal (unwholesome) and compassion (wholesome). I hope I feel the latter but am not sure. By the way, my whippets would like to say hi to your great dane also! Rob's explanation of right livelihood was very interesting. If someone is, say, a butcher, does he or she continue to pile up bad kamma throughout their working lives even if they really do not understand the 'wrong' in what they do? (I myself am a teacher, not a butcher, I hasten to add) Sarah - I live in South Norfolk, and when I can I go to the Cambridge Buddhist Centre for meditation. Are you in England? Many thanks to all Metta Sue 26056 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 3:33pm Subject: Re: new member Hi Sue, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sue wrote: But I am confused as to the difference between aversion to the animal being harmed (unwholesome), pity for the animal (unwholesome) and compassion (wholesome). I hope I feel the latter but am not sure. ===== Fanstastic question! I will interested in reading others' replies. ===== > If someone is, say, a butcher, does he or she continue to pile up bad kamma throughout their working lives even if they really do not understand the 'wrong' in what they do? (I myself am a teacher, not a butcher, I hasten to add) ====== Yes, unfortunately, butchers do accumulate bad kamma throughout their lives. However, it is more serious if they are ignorant of the 'wrong' in what they do. To illustrate this point, consider who gets burned more seriously when touching a hot iron rod; he who knows in advance that it is hot or he who has no idea that it is hot. One of my friends had a comfortable administrative position in a large distillery. Once she learned the dhamma, she felt uncomfortable with her livelihood. She has since changed jobs and is working in another industry. Metta, Rob M :-) 26057 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma -akusala citta, akusala kamma Hi Sarah; --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > back to my old dilemma: is every akusala citta akusala kamma? Did you find > something in Milinda? > I still wonder about Atthasalini: who gives the different requirements for > akusala to be akusala kamma patha. He is very definite here. Even when I > take up glass thoughtlessly: already akusala kamma? Looking out of the > window? I doubt about this, would this not give rise to undue fears and > scruples? Some time back, Nina raised this question to which I still don't have a definitive answer. Specifically, does an action have to be compelted before it creates kamma? In discussions, I have heard both positions (yes and no). I would be interested in hearing Bhikkhu Bodhi's comment. Metta, Rob M :-) 26058 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 3:50pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 27-30 for comment Classifying Cittas Slide Contents ============== 1.0 Citta: Consciousness (89 or 121 Cittas) 1.1 Sense Sphere (54 Cittas) 1.1.1 Unwholesome (12 Cittas) These cittas create "bad kamma" - Greed-Rooted - Hatred-Rooted - Delusion-Rooted 1.1.2 Rootless (18 Cittas) These cittas sense what happens to us (seeing, hearing, etc.) Note: slightly simplified - Resultant 1.1.3 Beautiful (24 Cittas) Wholesome create "good kamma"; Resultant acts as "subconscious" - Wholesome - Resultant 1.2 Fine Material Sphere (15 Cittas) 1.3 Immaterial Sphere (12 Cittas) 1.4 Supramundane (8 or 40 Cittas) Speaker Notes ============= Many people's first impression of Abhidhamma is that there are long lists of complicated Pali terms to be memorized. The Abhidhamma does contain many lists. The Abhidhamma lists the 89 or 121 possible mental states, which can be broken into four categories: - Sense Sphere Mental States; these are the mental states we experience in our day to day lives - Fine-Material Sphere Mental States; these are the mental states of experienced meditators when they meditate on objects - Immaterial Sphere Mental States; these are the mental states of experienced meditators when they meditate on concepts - Supramundane Mental States; these are the mental states of those who are approaching enlightenment In our discussion today, we will only focus on the sense sphere mental states. The first group are the unwholesome mental states. The unwholesome mental states are further broken into greed-rooted, hatred-rooted and delusion-rooted. All unwholesome mental states create bad kamma. The "weight" of the kamma created depends on the intensity of the volition, or will, behind the mental state. Strong will means strong kamma. The second group are the rootless mental states. They are called rootless because they do not have bad roots (greed, hatred, delusion), nor do they have good roots (non-greed or generosity, non- hatred or loving kindness, non-delusion or wisdom). These mental states are called resultants, (vipâka in Pali). According to Buddhism, things happen to us because of our past kamma. The mental state associated with an instant of seeing or hearing is, in fact, the result of some past kammic action. The third group are the beautiful mental states. The wholesome beautiful mental states are the opposites to the unwholesome mental states. These mental states create good kamma for us. There is also a type of beautiful resultant mental state, which acts as our subconscious. The subconscious is what the mind is doing when it is not doing anything else. In Pali, this is called a "bhavanga" mental state. Because being born as a human is very fortunate, the subconscious mental state is beautiful. 26059 From: Michael Newton Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Ruined Country Hello!James; Thank you very much your in depth account of Gamal Abder Nassers rule as you see it.I wanted to ask you, and I suppose you visited the pyrammids at Giza?I was wondering if you've been there,that you can give me a account of your experience there?I've always been fascinated by the Pyramids and wanted to go there,but so far haven't made it.There are so many interpretations of the historical source of these pyramids.I'm fascinated by the area.It's good your there,but sounds like you have mixed feelings being there.Yours in the Dhamma,Michael --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi All, > > In my English classes, we are studying The Tragedy > of > Macbeth. I had the students do a journal writing on > the subject of `Do you know anyone who is obsessed > with power and what are/were the consequences?' 26060 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 4:31pm Subject: Re: Steve- khandhas, upadaanakkhandhas & B.Bodhi's comments Dear Sarah and other dsg-ers Perfect timing for this qu. I have been contemplating the 5 Khandhas over the last few days and wonder why vedanak. and sannak. have been singled out from the other sankharak.? I think I understand about vk. as feelings seem to send us hurrying and hastening all over the place. Why sk. and not phassak? I guess 'memory' as a momentary nama can cause all sorts of avija, but I'd like to hear more on this. It's very sad to hear that B.Bodhi is so unwell. I do hope his treatment in USA is successful. See you next week, Azita ps. thank you Steve, for the Myanmar well-wishes; maybe you can make one of these trips one day. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Steve, > > Your Qu received the most detailed response! > [snip] > Sarah: Qu regarding the obtaining an article of yours > referred to in Note 65 of Khandhavagga: [snip] > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s If there is anything anyone would particularly like me to bring to > BB's attention (preferably with no urgency), please post and indicate. > ================= > > > 26061 From: Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "Is the experience of tranquillity something you aspire to?" Hi Jon, The experience of tranquility is something I aspire to identify as a quality distinct and different from the other "Beautiful Universals". Also, I still don't have a clear idea why the Buddha recommended samma samadhi or what is the exact relationship between tranquility and concentration in samma samadhi. Larry 26062 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 8:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Larry, Jon, and all, Perhaps the way to have a clear idea why the Buddha recommended right concentration/samma samadhi or what is the exact relationship between tranquility and concentration in samma samadhi is to develop right concentration/samma samadhi itself. Why did the Buddha teach right concentration/samma samadhi? As a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, it leads to the cessation of dukkha. Specifically, "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html Let me quote from MN14 Culadukkahkkhandha Sutta* the following passage: "Mahanama, there is still a state unabanddoned by you internally, owing to which at times states of greed, hate, and delusion invade your mind and remain; for were that state already abandoned by you internally you would not be living the home life, you would not be enjoying sensual pleasures. It is because that state is unabandoned by you internally that you are living the home life and enjoying sensual pleasures. "Even though a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, as long as he still does not attain to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, he may still be attracted to sensual pleasures. But when a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasure. How does one attain to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that? With right concentration/samma samadhi. Without right concentration/samma samadhi, one would still be attracted to sensual pleasures. Peace, Victor * Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi, trans., _The Middle Length Discourses fo the Buddha: a new translation of the Majjhima Nikaya_, p. 186-7. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "Is the experience of tranquillity something you aspire to?" > > Hi Jon, > > The experience of tranquility is something I aspire to identify as a > quality distinct and different from the other "Beautiful Universals". > Also, I still don't have a clear idea why the Buddha recommended samma > samadhi or what is the exact relationship between tranquility and > concentration in samma samadhi. > > Larry 26063 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 8:50pm Subject: Re: ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY CHAPTER FOUR !!!! > The Parabellum 9mm is at my hands. The target is before my eyes > and the shooting instructor is shouting his instructions...when an > object is presented to the mind through one of the five sense- doors, > 10. Impulsion - Bang! > 11. Impulsion - Bang! > 12. Impulsion - Bang! > 13. Impulsion - Bang! > 14. Impulsion - Bang! > 15. Impulsion - Bang! Hi icaro, Please don't take offence to my question but ... Why would a Buddhist put himself in the position to possibly (very possibly), in the future, kill another being (or many, many other beings) at the orders of a superior ??? ...mind you the motives for having to kill could be rooted in the most unwholesome nature (if not always unwholesome), i.e. not for the reason for self defence of a country. what about sila ? metta, nori 26064 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Larry, We shall know only when it arises. It has its own characteristic (sabhava lakkhana), and when sati and panna arise this characteristic can be understood. As Jon said,< In general terms, the experience of any moment of kusala would be the experience of tranquillity, since all moments of kusala are accompanied by tranquillity cetasika.> But such moments are very short and pass away rapidly, thus it is hard to know the characteristic of this cetasika. We should not try. It all depends on the degree of panna and who can control this? Nina. op 11-10-2003 19:59 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Jon: "Thus tranquility as a cetasika has very little to do with the > warm, fuzzy feeling we conventionally associate with tranquility." > > Hi Jon, > > What then is the experience of tranquility? 26065 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: new member Dear Sue, Rob M has explained different types of consciousness, citta, wholesome and unwholesome. They change so rapidly, we have no time to plan anything. It depends on character, inclination, habits in the past, what will happen at a particular moment. It has happened already before we can plan anything. The Buddha teaches us to understand different moments. Understanding is the most important. Nina. op 12-10-2003 01:35 schreef sue op sueandwhippets@y...: > > I would want to follow my 'heart' and release it anyway regardless of > consequences to myself. Do you have any thoughts on this. > 26066 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Dear Rob and Howard, I would like to add something. Whenever the citta is akusala there are perversions. When the rupa is desireable and the citta which experiences this given rupa (at the moments of javana) is accompanied by a pleasant mental feeling there may be attachment and then there is perversion. Nina. op 12-10-2003 01:48 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > A given rupa is inherently desireable (ittha). If the citta which > experiences this given rupa is accompanied by a pleasant mental > feeling, then there is alignment and there is no perversion of > perception. If the citta which experiences this given rupa is > accompanied by an unpleasant mental feeling, then this is a case of > a perversion of perception. 26067 From: Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Victor: "Without right concentration/samma samadhi, one would still be attracted to sensual pleasures." Hi Victor, This is a good answer to the why cultivate samma samadhi. MN 14: "the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that" Larry: And maybe this is a hint at what tranquility is in itself. MN 14: "when a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them," L: And this is the insight that is the foundation. Even if someone doesn't feel that cultivating samadhi is within the range of his or her accumulations, just sitting quietly for a period every day creates accumulations of pleasure apart from sensual pleasures. Disillusionment with sensual pleasures is the element of wholesomeness Jon was talking about. Thanks. Larry 26068 From: monomuni Date: Sun Oct 12, 2003 8:24pm Subject: The Absolute Calm! Friends: The Absolute Calm: (Paramattha-samatha) The Absolute Calm is the object of any such state, that is ending, cessation, termination, extinction, stopping, … Nibbana … With such object this absolute calm are seen, known, touched directly experienced, attained, realized, through the understanding of penetrative insight gradually gained by repeated practice. This object should thus be cultivated, sustained, made the vehicle, made the basis, established, well undertaken, increased & perfected until non-excess of any other state, until a single unshakable taste of the converged & undistracted mental abilities is obtained. Such self-taming is, such withdrawal is, such tranquilization is ultimately Advantageous, quite blameless and culminates in the Complete Comprehension, Direct Knowledge & Deathlessness of Enlightenment ... Whose Awareness of in-&-out Breathing Is well developed & gradually perfected Just as the Buddha explained, will surely Illuminate this world, like the full moon All freed from cloud. Friendship is truly GREATEST The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Bhikkhu Samahita. SRI LANKA. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Good is restraint of the eye; good is restraint of the ear; good is restraint of the nose; good is the restraint of the tongue. Random Dhammapada Verse 360 26069 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 0:14am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Howard, Sorry for the delays. I’m hoping to get up to date today with several posts and will then probably have to delay any further replies to anyone until after our return two weeks later or so. Hope everyone continues the threads in my absence;-) .... --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Howard: > To the best of my knowledge, I've only written of concepts (i.e. > ideas) as namas. When I may say something to the effect that > such-and-such is > "concept-only," my meaning is that the alleged such-and-such doesn't > truly exist, > but that all there is is the concept of it (applied to a particular > sequence of > mentally unconstructed, directly observed phenomena). .... OK, and we can use these terms in anyway. However, why would one want to use a Pali term like ‘namas’ in a different way to that used in the texts, where it clearly doesn’t include concepts? .... Howard: > As I think about this issue a bit further, a thought occurs to > me: > Concepts/ideas are mental objects which are mind-constructed. They are > actually > constructed by mental activity and actually observed via the mind door, > and > they are not rupas, and so I count them as namas. .... Again, I think it’s confusing to use namas for this correct definition of concepts. (see the definition of nama which Dan gave from Nyantiloka dict and also, RobM’s slides showing namas as being equivalent to the realities of cittas, cetasikas and nibbana). As Jon said to Larry on their topic: “Well it depends on whose definition of ‘tranquillity’ we are working with -- our own or the Buddha’s ;-))As I read the texts, the Buddha goes to some lengths to explain why conventional ideas of qualities or values such as understanding, worthiness, wealth,importance, desirability, effort, achievement, concentration and the like (and tranquillity) do not conform to the model of those qualities or values as they need to be understood for the purpose of developing the path. Besides, we each have different ideas as to what these things mean in their conventional sense (ideas that are of course coloured by our own particular ignorance and wrong view). ..... Howard: >If, however, a nama > must, > itself, take an actual object, then many ideas/concepts fail that test. > But I'm not > at all sure that is a good test. Feelings do not take objects, though > they > are *associated* with objects. .... Feelings are cetasikas (mental factors) which take the same object as the cittas and other cetasikas they accompany. Let’s say there is attachment to the (concept of) computer at this moment. Pleasant feeling accompanies the attachment and also experiences the same object. ..... H: >In fact, very often a feeling is arises > from the > cognizing of an object which is a concept (idea)! .... Exactly so! .... H: >Also, nibbana is > classified > as a nama, and it takes no object. So I'm not persuaded that the > object-taking > test is a valid one for what constitutes namas - it is sufficient, but > not > necessary. ..... As Dan pointed out, nibbana is an exception to many rules;-) A nama by default we might say. (Btw, Dan, supramundane doesn’t mean ‘beyond the field of’ nama and rupa. Lokuttara cittas are supramundane, but are still namas, so I don’t think we can use that line to disqualify nibbana. .... ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Grasping stories is exactly how we begin to understand the > Dhamma. > Thank goodness we can grasp and analyze stories! Mundane understanding > is an > important support (among several) for wisdom. (Note to Sukin: I don't > deny that! > ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------- As long as it is ‘right’ mundane theoretical view I think. I’m not sure about all this grasping though;-) (Sukin, you may wish to quote this back to Howard sometime;-)). > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Unless I'm mistaken, I do believe I have read you to say in the > past > that pa~n~na cannot take concepts as objects. > --------------------------------------------------- We have to be clear about which kind of panna we’re referring to. As it says in the Vism, there are many kinds of panna. Panna in satipatthana development cannot take concepts as objects, but other kinds of panna can and do. .... > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Then there would no way to know with transformative wisdom that > concepts have no actual references! As I see it, vipassana pa~n~na can > "penetrate" > concepts to see how they are fabricated, to see the paramattha dhammas > from > which they are fabricated, and to see their illusive nature, their being > empty of > the actual reference they *seem* to have. > ---------------------------------------------------- Only by thinking. In your example in another post about the noticing of someone being missing, the same applies. As you rightly said, there is a ‘long chain of phenomena’ including much mind door activity and thinking of concepts. This does not make the concepts namas however (i.e because inevitably they have to be experienced through the mind door). The cittas and cetasikas which cognize or ‘take’ these objects are namas. Likewise when the DSG member sees the light and agrees with us - however great the concepts;-). As I said, I hope everyone keeps discussing these important topics, but I’ll have to leave all replies til I get back. (Glad we’re on the same page on the internal/external comments;-);-)) .... Metta, Sarah p.s I was very sorry to hear the news about your mother in law’s return to hospital, Howard and again apologise for not responding. Our best wishes for her comfort and good care and also to you and Rita. Pls keep us posted. ================================ 26070 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi RobM, You’ve written many excellent posts recently including those on this subject. I thought the one on the citta moments was very good and clear and I’m fascinated to see how engineers (you and Icaro) read the Abhidhamma logical sequences and other details to help come to your own understanding. I’ve meanwhile been doing my research obseving toddlers and fireworks;-) Last night, I went up onto our roof top for the second week running to watch a firework display. Before the fireworks started, my companion --a sweet little 21 month-old Chinese boy called Tim -- explained graphically and excitedly about the “boom, boom” we’d soon be hearing and the accompanying flutters in the chest which make one feel ‘ho geng’ (very scared). As the fireworks started, true to his word, there were the ‘booms’ which for most average people like those of us there, are presumably sounds experienced by akusala vipaka cittas, followed by different processes with aversion and then attachment. In between the ear door processes are the eye door processes, seeing the visible objects (presumably kusala vipaka) with lots more attachment. For most of us, the attachment outweighs any aversion otherwise we wouldn’t watch. For little Tim, we all had to encourage him to enjoy the show and not be scared;-) As you’ve rightly shown (saving me lots of work;-)), the sounds and visible objects are inherently pleasant/desirable or unpleasant/undesirable already. As we read in B.Bodhi’s Guide in CMA: “According to the Abhidhamma philosophy, this distinction in the quality of objects pertains to the intrinsic nature of the object itself; it is not a variable determined by the individual temperament and preferences of the experiencer.” These rupas are conditioned by temperature and have their own particular characteristics regardless of whether they are heard or not. For most (average) people, hearing undesirable sounds is akusala vipaka and so on. There are exceptions. For example, for someone who is almost deaf, hearing the ‘boom, boom’ might be kusala vipaka. We cannot know for sure at any moment what objects experienced are desirable and undesirable and it’s not of consequence. Only the sight of a live Buddha is definitely kusala vipaka for all. As you’ve also pointed out, there can be any kind of response in subsequent javana cittas while watching the fireworks or at any other time. For example, there can be attachment, aversion or indifference to the ‘boom, boom’. There can even be wise consideration or understanding that it is merely sound that is experienced. No fireworks at all;-) Usually after experiences of seeing and hearing, the subsequent javana cittas are unwholesome and there is perversion of citta and sanna at all these moments. So, I’d put more emphasis on the ‘unwholesome’ nature and less on the ‘matching’ and ‘alignment’. (See vipallasa in UP). Also, I think the pleasant or unpleasant feelings accompanying the ‘perverted’ cittas are not at the actual moments of seing, hearing and tasting, but with the subsequent javana cittas. A pleasant visible object may be followed by equanimity and indifferent feeling (especially for an anagami or arahant), but no perversion. For us, desire may be not just to the feeling on account of what is seen or heard, but for the sound or visible objects themselves or to the concepts about them. Desire can be to anything (other than nibbana or lokuttara cittas). I hope your original qu is now clear, Rob, thanks to your own careful and wise reflections. I’ve just added one or two details here. Sometimes just formulating the question does the trick! I see Nina has also written on the thread, but I haven’t read recent posts yet as I'm trying to catch up on replies. Hopefully you, Howard and Nina can continue with any loose ends or any corrections to anything I’ve said:-) I will certainly draw yr other qu on kamma, Nina’s response on ‘luminous’ and anything further to BB when I next write. Metta and much appreciation for all your support and help to newcomers as well. Sarah ====== --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > When we last met in HK, you asked me if there were any points in the > Dhamma / Abhidhamma that I was still wrestling with. I forgot to > mention at that time that I am still very uncomfortable with > the "inherent pleasantness / unpleasantness" aspects of rupa. Can > you try and explain to me how rupa can have these "inherent" > characteristics? I have a hard time accepting the explanation on > P172 of CMA, "It is distinguishable according to what is found > desireable at one time and undesireable at another time by average > (men such as) accountants, government officials, burgesses, land > owners and merchants". 26071 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > . As we read in B.Bodhi's Guide in CMA: > "According to the Abhidhamma philosophy, this distinction in the quality > of objects pertains to the intrinsic nature of the object itself; it is > not a variable determined by the individual temperament > and preferences of the experiencer." > > These rupas are conditioned by temperature and have their own particular > characteristics regardless of whether they are heard or not. For most > (average) people, hearing undesirable sounds is akusala vipaka and so on. > There are exceptions. For example, for someone who is almost deaf, hearing > the `boom, boom' might be kusala vipaka. _____ Dear Sarah, Could you provide a reference for this: that a sound may be intrinsically undesirable and yet the hearing of it is kusala vipaka. ____ > > We cannot know for sure at any moment what objects experienced are > desirable and undesirable and it's not of consequence. Only the sight of a > live Buddha is definitely kusala vipaka for all. _____ The Atthasalini says: "dung eating pigs on smelling the odour of dung become joyful, thinking;'we shall get something to eat' nevertheless their eye-consciousness (a vipaka) in the seeing of the dung, nose consciousness (a vipaka) in smelling its odour and tongue consciousness (a vipaka)in tasting its flavour is only unprofitable result."" endquote Do you disagree with this? RobertK 26072 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi RobK, Thx for your prompt feedback;-) --- rjkjp1 wrote: S:>> most > > (average) people, hearing undesirable sounds is akusala vipaka and > so on. > > There are exceptions. For example, for someone who is almost deaf, > hearing > > the `boom, boom' might be kusala vipaka. > _____ R:> Dear Sarah, > Could you provide a reference for this: that a sound may be > intrinsically undesirable and yet the hearing of it is kusala vipaka. .... S: This was my understanding of the passage RobM asked about in the post, i.e: .. RobM: > P172 of CMA, "It is distinguishable according to what is found > desireable at one time and undesireable at another time by average > (men such as) accountants, government officials, burgesses, land > owners and merchants". .. S: I’d be glad to hear any other interpretations you or others might have. ..... S:> > We cannot know for sure at any moment what objects experienced are > > desirable and undesirable and it's not of consequence. Only the > sight of a > > live Buddha is definitely kusala vipaka for all. > _____ RobK:> The Atthasalini says: "dung eating pigs on smelling the odour of dung > become > joyful, thinking;'we shall get something to eat' nevertheless their > eye-consciousness (a vipaka) in the seeing of the dung, nose > consciousness (a vipaka) in smelling its odour and tongue > consciousness (a vipaka)in tasting its flavour is only unprofitable > result."" endquote > Do you disagree with this? .... S: A good point. I’ve asked Khun Sujin about this particular point before and will perhaps raise it again with the Atth quote if you like. What I wrote above (about seeing the live Buddha) was as she explained it to us. At such a time it is kusala vipaka for everyone regardless. At all other times, she said, we cannot be sure. Perhaps in the Atth quote these are general examples, just like we might refer to the hearing of ‘booms’ or thunder as akusala vipaka. However, it doesn’t necessarily mean that at every moment of seeing the dung and so on (for every pig)that it is akusala vipaka, just as we cannot say that at every moment of hearing ‘booms’ it is. There are so many sense door processes. What do you think? I need to press on with some other promised replies before signing off but will of course be following any further discussion and responding to any other qus on return. Metta, Sarah ======== 26073 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Who directly knows?? Sati and panna?? .... What do you think of this quote given recently by Larry from Nyantiloka’s dictionary: “Now, the Buddha neither teaches a personality which will continue after death, nor does he teach a personality which will be annihilated at death, but he shows us that 'personality', 'ego', 'individual', 'man', etc., are nothing but mere conventional designations (vohára-vacana) and that in the ultimate sense (s. paramattha-sacca) there is only this self-consuming process of physical and mental phenomena which continually arise and again disappear immediately. - For further details, s. anattá, khandha, paticcasamuppáda.” Also, what did you think about the views attributed to the Puggalavadins which I quoted from the Katthavatthu? Did you agree with the Theravadin’s comments? What did you think about the following commentary note and B.Bodhi’s comment which RobK gave in a post on the Bhara Sutta? RobK: “AS the commentary to the sutta says: "By the expression 'the carrier of the burden' he shows the person to be a mere convention." see note 1051 Bodhi. Bhikkhu Bodhi says in his introduction to the Khandha samyutta , where this sutta comes from: "the subject of appropriation and identification with the 'self' is merely a fabrication of conceptual thought woven in the darkenss of ignorance"p.845” ***** Victor: > > "A monk who is a Worthy One, devoid of mental fermentations -- who > has attained completion, finished the task, laid down the burden, > attained the true goal, destroyed the fetters of becoming, and is > released through right knowledge -- directly knows earth as earth. > Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about > earth, does not conceive things in earth, does not conceive things > coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as 'mine,' does not > delight in earth. Why is that? Because he has comprehended it, I > tell you. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn001.html > > How do you know reality is nama and rupa? ..... Does the Buddha talk about the khandhas, the ayatanas and the dhatus in the suttas? What is the ‘All’ that is to be understood or the burden to be relinquished? Are these any different from nama and rupa? When Rahula (see Nina’s series of translations) is urged to see the impermanence of rupas and also the unsatisfactoriness, foulness and non-selfness (itipi ruupa.m anicca.m, itipi dukkha.m, itipi asubha.m, itipi anattaa), is there any doubt that these are ‘realities’? When RobM’s slide (post 25939) shows ultimate realities to consist of cittas (consciousness), cetasikas (mental factors), rupas (physical phenomena) and nibbana, (i.e namas and rupas) is this not exactly as we read in the Tipitaka? You quoted from the Mulapariyaya Sutta. As B.Bodhi writes in his introduction, p18: “To be sure, the arahat is at perfect liberty to make use of such terms and designations as “I” and “mine”. Freedom from the bondage of concepts does not imply a stricture prohibiting their use. But the arahat deploys them only as expedients for the purpose of communication. He is no longer deceived by them; he no longer takes them as springs to unjustified assumptions. He sees them as convenient expressions, not as labels for substantial realities.” We read in the same sutta about the worldling: >He perceives beings as beings, Having perceived beings as beings, he conceives beings; he conceives (himself) in beings; he conceives (himself apart) from beings; he conceives ‘beings are mind’; he delights in beings. What is the reason? Because they have not been fully understood by him, I declare.< The commentary adds detail to this passage including “the defining of mentality-materiality (naamaruupavavatthaana) is the full understanding of the known.” Later we read about what is meant by the various wrong self-conceivings. “He perceives beings as beings” and so on. I’m also reminded of the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 recently referred too and in particular the teaching given by the Buddha to Pukkusati in the potter’s workshop. After reading that “this person consists of six elements” and so on, later we read that “One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve the truth, should cultivate relinquishment, and should train for peace”. > “Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving (ma~n~nussavaa); ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be neither percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a concieving. Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace....< Metta and look forward to further discussions after a well-needed break, Victor;-) Meanwhile I'll enjoy your ones with Sukin and others. Metta, Sarah p.s you may like to review all the posts on 'anatta' and 'concept and reality' in UP while I'm away too;-) Also 'Satipatthana -meanings'. ======= 26074 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Sarah, > > You still haven't answered my original question. Could you please be > serious for a moment and give your reaction/analysis of the post in > question without all of the wisecracks and laughter? (I wouldn't ask, > but you brought it up in the first place). Thank you. .... I'll try (right, straight face)! I’ve just found it: James: “I think it is interesting that the suttas describe the meal as 'tender pork cuisine'; hmmmm...I wonder why it was so tender? A good guess would be that it was probably undercooked. Here is an entry from encyclopedia.com that parallels the symptoms of the Lord Buddha after he ate this meal of tender (undercooked?) meat:...” I thought it was a well-written an interesting post with support that would convince most and a good counter-balance to Suan’s post with lots of Pali detail just before it. I was glad to read it. Hence my response. I also personally thought it was off-track in terms of the ‘tender pork’. Not only do I read and see no reason not to accept the Commentary explanation to the contrary, I also don’t think there is any evidence that we can consider the ‘tender’ in ‘tender pork cuisine’ to be referring to undercooked. We have, as I understand: suukara (pork) and maddava ((soft) flesh or meat). The same word is used throughout the Vinaya, for example, when referring to rules about eating meat without any suggestion of being bad in anyway. I’m sure one of the Pali experts will add more if you’re interested;-) James, your initial comments have led to some really interesting discussion. As I’ve told the others, I’ll be glad to read any more posts, but am taking a break myself. I have a few more outstanding posts which I’ll try to respond to before I go, but am hoping others will take up any other threads. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you for all your replies to the challenging qus from the children. (Newbies, the Starkids are mostly 10-13 year olds that I teach). ======= 26075 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 4:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: new member Hi Sue, --- sue wrote: > Dear Christine, Rob, and Sarah > Thank you all for your very kind and helpful messages. .... Christine has already left Australia and we'lls oon be leaving Hong Kong to join friends in Thailand for a trip to Burma. That leaves RobM for you to talk to meanwhile and a chance to 'meet' others;-) .... > I understand most of what you say and accept that one should not be > angry towards the hunter and neither should one be conceited. But I am > confused as to the difference between aversion to the animal being > harmed (unwholesome), pity for the animal (unwholesome) and compassion > (wholesome). I hope I feel the latter but am not sure. .... I'm sure Chris will add more when she can. I think her point was that we all have many changing good and not so good mental states. .... > Rob's explanation of right livelihood was very interesting. If someone > is, say, a butcher, does he or she continue to pile up bad kamma > throughout their working lives even if they really do not understand the > 'wrong' in what they do? (I myself am a teacher, not a butcher, I hasten > to add) .... Again, many good and bad mental states whatever our livelihood I think. Yes, even for teachers . .... > Sarah - I live in South Norfolk, and when I can I go to the Cambridge > Buddhist Centre for meditation. Are you in England? .... No, not for a long time (We've been in Hong Kong for 20 yrs), but all my family live in England. As children we used to stay on an aunt and uncle's farm in South Norfolk. It was a beautiful area with a very large duck pond and lots of dairy cattle that we used to get to know. I was thinking about it and the cows (I can still remember some of their names) when Ken H was recently talking about his farming days in a previous thread on 'right livelihood' which you may like to track down. Like Ken H, my uncle used to treat all his animals very kindly. Enjoy the list, ask for help and look forward to chatting more in a couple of weeks or so. Metta, Sarah ======== 26076 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 4:30am Subject: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > Sarah, > > > > You still haven't answered my original question. Could you please be > > serious for a moment and give your reaction/analysis of the post in > > question without all of the wisecracks and laughter? (I wouldn't ask, > > but you brought it up in the first place). Thank you. > .... > I'll try (right, straight face)! I've just found it: > > James: "I think it is interesting that the suttas describe the meal as > 'tender pork cuisine'; hmmmm...I wonder why it was so tender? A good > guess would be that it was probably undercooked. > Here is an entry from encyclopedia.com that parallels the symptoms of the > Lord Buddha after he ate this meal of tender (undercooked?) meat:..." > > I thought it was a well-written an interesting post with support that > would convince most and a good counter-balance to Suan's post with lots of > Pali detail just before it. I was glad to read it. Hence my response. Hi Sarah, Thank you for the respons. I hope you enjoy your trip. Metta, James 26077 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 4:34am Subject: Re:_[dsg]_ICARO´S_DHAMMA_DIARY_CHAPTER_THREE_!!!! Hi Icaro (& Nina). I really enjoy your Dhamma Diary entries;-) Icaro: >I do feel really good...despite the food!!!! All of us at the barracks are really newbies at military life. The vision and understanding of Metta and mutual help are our goal and many of us are trying really hard to get such standards - but despite this remark right effects sometimes arise easily: I never touched up a Parabellum 9mm shotgun before on my life and my first shooting stand was very good - I was allowed to pass to the advanced shooting school! Samatha, ekagatta, a deep breath, the Parabellum 9mm stands firm at my hands and... bullseye!!!!!!!!!!!!!!< ...... We certainly see the concentration at these moments (kusala? akusala?. You’ll have to talk to Jon about the samatha;-) In the commentary to the Parinibbana Sutta, I so enjoyed reading the details about the Vajjis and harmonious living in a military context and for the Sangha afterwards. We read about how when they acted and worked in ‘solidarity’ and without ‘internal dissension’ they could not be destroyed. We read all the details about the importance of living in harmony and meeting for discussion and sharing of news. Please keep up all your good charts such as the one showing the conditions for the sense-door consciousness to arise and zany commentary;-);-). Nina, I keep coming across notes in the comy about changes in gramma. Comy to parinib. Sutta p.15 Of a battle (yuddhassa) -genitive with instrumental meaning. Also thx for the qu which I’ve printed to take. metta, Sarah p.s Icaro, I'm thinking of you as I pack - also having trouble trying to stick to the basics;-) ====== 26078 From: monomuni Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:33am Subject: The 3 Final Freedoms ... Friends: The 3 Final Freedoms: Outlet 1: (animitta-vimokkha) Seeing all constructions as a transient exhaustion is entering the Signless Liberation through the door of Determination opened by Faith. This is an exit from this world. Such one is freed by Trust. Outlet 2: (apanihita-vimokkha) Seeing all constructions as a disappointing misery is entering the Desireless Liberation through the door of Tranquility opened by Concentration. This is an exit from this world. Such one is a BodyWitness. Outlet 3: (sunnata-vimokkha) Seeing all phenomena as an impersonal empty no self is entering the Voidness Liberation through the door of Understanding opened by Insight. This is an exit from this world. Such one is attained to Vision. Their final state is very sameness even though arrived at this peak by 3 different routes. Source: The path of Discrimination (Canonical) Patisambhidamagga; [i 49]. Essay on Liberation V. By Sariputta. Friendship is truly GREATEST The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Bhikkhu Samahita, SRI LANKA. WWW: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Whosoever, by a good deed, covers the evil done, such a one illuminates this world like the moon freed from clouds. Random Dhammapada Verse 173 26079 From: javisens Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 6:09am Subject: Hello - Clonning and Antibiotics Dear Everyone I do apologise for not introducing myself before. First thanks very much for Christine and Sara for their response and clarifying my questions. Rob's article is quite revealing and I would recommend that to several people who asked me the same question. I myself a buddhist from Sri Lanka(working in UK presently), but honestly I am no match (and somewhat ashamed of myself that how mush little I know about buddhism)to what is being discussed by all of you. In order to get answers to my questions I surf through the web and happened see DSG and mailed it to you. I will visit DSG as much as I can and hope to contribute with some qusetions more of laymen would have. May the Triple Gem Bless all of you, Javisens 26080 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Larry, > I am just following the teaching on "sabhava". "Arising" is the one and > only criterion for reality. But Nibbana also has sabhava, and it does not arise. I think sabhava has more to do with `nature' and `existence' than with arising. But I do like that you look at conditioned dhammas from the standpoint of `arising'. I usually look at it from existence, and then think about arising and falling away. It's good I think, to always remember that any one of these implies the other two. > Arising is impermanence. Impermanence is > combining and separating. Without combining into combinations there is no impermanence. I am a bit uncomfortable with this connection. A rupa kalapa is not a result of `combination' as such. The four primary elements, though they condition one another, is not like they `come together', but more like they arise together because there can never be one without the other. In the same way, though conditionality and impermanence go together, it is not like the former is the sole cause for the latter. So I think it better to keep them separate as being different characteristics of realities… What do you think? > Combining and separating is also the basis of cause and condition. Yes, but I think it is good to remember that dhammas condition one another by many ways. They condition one another from the fact that they come together, but also I think they come together due to other conditions. But I am not so clear about this, what do you think? > A person is a combination, impermanent, not self, ultimately undesirable. This may be the kind of `self view' that Victor often reminds us about. I see no point in positing a `person' and then describing what that might be in terms of what we learn about dhammas. It is good to know what goes on in the ultimate level, part of which is the process of `thinking' about persons. And it is also good to know that a `person' does not exist and have any sabhava. So what comes together are citta, cetasika and rupa, and it is these that have sabhava and are impermanent and ultimately undesirable. > You can promote the undesirability of people or governments > by denying their existence but there may be a problem with credibility. > It depends on what you can believe. ?? Don't follow you here. Metta, Sukin. 26081 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Victor, > In terms of the noble eightfold path, the Buddha taught more than > satipatthana. While right mindfulness/samma sati matters, it is > only part of the Buddha's teaching of the noble eightfold path. I think you have read many times here, what the Eightfold Path means in terms of them being factors arising and conditioning each other. These are not conventional ideas to be taken separately and developed one by one. They are in fact, ultimate realities arising either five together or all eight depending on them being mundane or supramundane. We read about concentration for example, as arising with *all* cittas. And we also read about sati as being exclusively kusala and that this too is differentiated between on the one hand, those associated with dana, sila, and development of samatha, and on the other, with sati of the level of satipatthana. Also, we differentiate between samma and miccha Ditthi. So we see that there cannot be say, samma sati without the samadhi being samma too, and since we are concerned with vipassana here, these two cannot arise without samma ditthi. So isn't it sensible not only to view the factors of the path as arising together to perform a particular function based on the above reasoning, but also to note that if taken separately, there is bound to be a belief that each can be developed exclusive of the other, through some conventional activity. Such as meditating or `reading'? ;-) The Buddha did teach more than satipatthana. He taught about the development of Parami and other kusala which support the development of wisdom. However, without satipatthana, nothing can lead to real knowledge of the way things are, which is what leads to liberation. I think that "View" being that which drives us to any decision we make with regard to deeds through body, speech and mind, `Right View' is the leader when it comes to the Eightfold Path. And I believe also, that the Right View of the intellectual level is accompanied by an appropriate level of samma sati and samadhi. Which is why, this too is considered kusala. And in light of the importance of samma ditthi as being the leader, it is also good to know what are the realities which can be the object of satipatthana. Without making this distinction, worldlings like you and I will mistake the unreal for real and so accumulate ignorance. The connection here, though is between `intellectual knowledge' and `satipatthana' in that the former *leads* to the latter and not about both sati and panna arising together and having the same object, shows nevertheless that they are closely connected. The difference is when sati does occur to apprehend a paramattha dhamma, the panna then not only understand intellectual meaning, but `directly knows' one characteristic or the other of that reality. So we see that in the practice of satipatthana, is the development of other factors as well. No need to considering them separately and certainly no point in trying to develop one at the exclusion of the other. Because the development is not in `trying', or any kind of `conscious effort', but rather understanding what samma magga is and knowing that without this knowledge, invariably miccha magga will be developed. Recognizing what is not the path and intellectually understanding what it might be, is I believe the main condition for the latter to be developed. > In the discourses Satipatthana Sutta*, Anapanasati Sutta**, and > Kayagata-sati Sutta***, the Buddha taught the practice and > development of mindfulness. The Buddha's teaching on mindfulness is > not about what is reality and what is concept. But mindfulness of what? Like I said above, if we do not know what the object of samma sati might be, then invariably the object would be that which makes it `miccha sati', or lobha. If we insist on seeing the fault in making this distinction at the intellectual level, no matter what, then I believe we are bound to take the wrong path. Victor, I would like to hear your answer to the following questions. What is ignorance? What it is to be ignorant now? What does wisdom know? Metta, Sukin 26082 From: Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 5:58am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/13/03 3:16:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Sorry for the delays. I’m hoping to get up to date today with several > posts and will then probably have to delay any further replies to anyone > until after our return two weeks later or so. Hope everyone continues the > threads in my absence;-) > .... > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Howard: > > To the best of my knowledge, I've only written of concepts (i.e. > >ideas) as namas. When I may say something to the effect that > >such-and-such is > >"concept-only," my meaning is that the alleged such-and-such doesn't > >truly exist, > >but that all there is is the concept of it (applied to a particular > >sequence of > >mentally unconstructed, directly observed phenomena). > .... > OK, and we can use these terms in anyway. However, why would one want to > use a Pali term like ‘namas’ in a different way to that used in the texts, > where it clearly doesn’t include concepts? > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: My entire life I have used 'concept' to mean a thought of a certain general type, and not the alleged object it refers to. Everybody I ever knew before coming on DSG understood 'concept' that way as well. Trees, cars, circles, and my kindergarten teacher were never considered to be concepts. But there *were* the *ideas* of trees, cars, circles,and my kindergarten teacher, and these were concepts. Of course, I always thought the intended references of these concepts were actual existences. I was even a mathematical Platonist who thought that such alleged things as uncountable ordinals were real things! Now I do not believe in the actual existence, even fleeting, of trees, cars, circles, my kindergarten teacher, and transfinite ordinals. These are concept-only, meaning that they are the *conventional* referents of certain thoughts (it is a *convention* to treat these as existents). But what of the *thoughts*?? Are there no thoughts? When I seem to see a tree through the window, is there no thought that arises? I say there is a thought that arises and is discerned (vi~n~nanized) just as there are sights and sounds and tastes and feelings and inclinations that arise. The alleged *referents*, however, the trees, and cars etc, do not arise. It is *these* nonexistences that you and others seem to mean when you use the Pali word 'pa~n~natti'. I have no problem with using 'pa~n~ntti' in this manner, and when so using it, I would then most readily say that pa~n~natti are not namas, nor are they rupas, nor are they anything at all - they are nonexistent, pretend-entities. But *concepts* in the sense of "thoughts," which I believe is the sense in which most American speakers of English use the word 'concepts', are not non-existent, pretend-entities, but phenomena that arise via the mind-door, and are apprehended by mind-consciousness, just as sounds are phenomena that arise via the ear-door and are apprehended by ear-consciousness. The difference is that thoughts are fabricated by mental construction in a way that sounds are not, though both are, of course, conditioned, and both arise in part as kamma vipaka. --------------------------------------------------------------- > .... > Howard: > > As I think about this issue a bit further, a thought occurs to > >me: > >Concepts/ideas are mental objects which are mind-constructed. They are > >actually > >constructed by mental activity and actually observed via the mind door, > >and > >they are not rupas, and so I count them as namas. > .... > Again, I think it’s confusing to use namas for this correct definition of > concepts. (see the definition of nama which Dan gave from Nyantiloka dict > and also, RobM’s slides showing namas as being equivalent to the realities > of cittas, cetasikas and nibbana). ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I have no problem with that definition, which goes as follows: > náma: (lit. 'name'): 'mind', mentality. This term is generally used as a > collective name for the 4 mental groups (arúpino khandha), viz. feeling > (vedaná), perception (saññá), mental formations (sankhára) and consciousness > (viññána). Within the 4th link (náma-rúpa) in the formula of the paticcasamuppáda > (q.v.), however, it applies only to karma-resultant (vipáka) feeling and > perception and a few karma-resultant mental functions inseparable from any > consciousness. As it is said (M. 9; D. 15; S. XII, 2): "Feeling (vedaná), perception > (saññá), volition (cetaná), impression (phassa), mental advertence > (manasikára): this, o brother, is called mind (náma)." With the addition of 2 more > mental factors, namely, mental vitality (jÃvita) and concentration (samádhi), > here 'stationary phase of mind' (cittatthiti), these 7 factors are said in the > Abhidhammattha Sangaha to be the inseparable mental factors in any state of > consciousness. I count thoughts/ideas/concepts as falling within the sankharakkhandha. They are mental formations. Their alleged referents, however, are not - they are nothing at all. Even the alleged referent of the idea of hardness is nothing at all, because the referent of the *idea* of hardness, while intended to correspond to a hardness, is, in fact, *not* an experienced hardness! A "hardness" thought of is *not* an actual experienced hardness - it, in fact, is nothing at all. ----------------------------------------------------------- As Jon said to Larry on their topic: > > “Well it depends on whose definition of ‘tranquillity’ we are working with > -- our own or the Buddha’s ;-))As I read the texts, the > Buddha goes to some lengths to explain why conventional ideas of qualities > or values such as understanding, worthiness, wealth,importance, > desirability, effort, achievement, concentration and the like (and > tranquillity) do not conform to the model of those > qualities or values as they need to be understood for the purpose of > developing the path. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: So? What does that have to do with this issue? ------------------------------------------------------ Besides, we each have different ideas as to what> > these things mean in their conventional sense (ideas that are of course > coloured by our own particular ignorance and wrong view). ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Then they are different concepts. So what? ------------------------------------------------------ > ..... > Howard: > >If, however, a nama > >must, > >itself, take an actual object, then many ideas/concepts fail that test. > >But I'm not > >at all sure that is a good test. Feelings do not take objects, though > >they > >are *associated* with objects. > .... > Feelings are cetasikas (mental factors) which take the same object as the > cittas and other cetasikas they accompany. Let’s say there is attachment > to the (concept of) computer at this moment. Pleasant feeling accompanies > the attachment and also experiences the same object. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: What do you mean by "experience an object"? It is vi~n~nana that experiences the object. The coming together of object, sense door, and vi~n~nana is contact, and *that* is the "experiencing of the object". Feeling arises as a *result* of the contact. That is part of the statement of dependent origination. Because feeling arises *due* to the contact with a particular object, we properly associate it with that object. But feeling doesn't experience the object, conciousness does. Abhidhamma seems to present the feeling of an object simultaneous with the apprehending of that object (as part of the same citta), but I do not believe this. I believe that paticcasamupada teaches that feeling arises as a *result* of contact. First there is the coming together of object, sense door and consciousness that is contact, contact being that experiential event, then follows feeling, and with that as condition, along with ignorance-influenced fabrication as condition, tanha arises. These are *not* simultaneous features of a single mind state. That is not how it is taught in the Buddha's teaching of dependent origination, and it is not how one observes it to occur in one's own mindstream, at least not *this* one. ------------------------------------------------------- > ..... > H: >In fact, very often a feeling is arises > >from the > >cognizing of an object which is a concept (idea)! > .... > Exactly so! ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, exactly so. The object is the thought, what grasps the thought is subject-object discernment (vi~n~nana), the medium is the mind door, and the cognitive event, the coming together of the three is contact. The feeling arises conditioned by that experiential event. ---------------------------------------------------- > .... > H: >Also, nibbana is > >classified > >as a nama, and it takes no object. So I'm not persuaded that the > >object-taking > >test is a valid one for what constitutes namas - it is sufficient, but > >not > >necessary. > ..... > As Dan pointed out, nibbana is an exception to many rules;-) A nama by > default we might say. (Btw, Dan, supramundane doesn’t mean ‘beyond the > field of’ nama and rupa. Lokuttara cittas are supramundane, but are still > namas, so I don’t think we can use that line to disqualify nibbana. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I wasn't looking to disqualify nibbana as a nama, but to qualify thoughts in general as namas. Of *course* thoughts are namas! They are mental phenomena. And as far as nibbana is concerned, it is a nama because it is an absence. Absences are known exclusively through the mind door, that, as I see it it, is what makes a phenomenon nama (mental). ------------------------------------------------------ > .... > ---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Grasping stories is exactly how we begin to understand the > >Dhamma. > >Thank goodness we can grasp and analyze stories! Mundane understanding > >is an > >important support (among several) for wisdom. (Note to Sukin: I don't > >deny that! > >;-) > >----------------------------------------------------- > As long as it is ‘right’ mundane theoretical view I think. I’m not sure > about all this grasping though;-) (Sukin, you may wish to quote this back > to Howard sometime;-)). > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I, of course, do "grasp" your play on words here. While we are talking about grasping, though, I must tell you that Abhidhamma is loosening its hold on me, not that it ever was so tight. My perusing the Dhammasangani and the Guide to Conditional Relations hasn't helped matters in that respect. (Sorry to disappoint! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------- > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Unless I'm mistaken, I do believe I have read you to say in the > >past > >that pa~n~na cannot take concepts as objects. > >--------------------------------------------------- > We have to be clear about which kind of panna we’re referring to. As it > says in the Vism, there are many kinds of panna. Panna in satipatthana > development cannot take concepts as objects, but other kinds of panna can > and do. > .... > >--------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Then there would no way to know with transformative wisdom that > >concepts have no actual references! As I see it, vipassana pa~n~na can > >"penetrate" > >concepts to see how they are fabricated, to see the paramattha dhammas > >from > >which they are fabricated, and to see their illusive nature, their being > >empty of > >the actual reference they *seem* to have. > >---------------------------------------------------- > Only by thinking. In your example in another post about the noticing of > someone being missing, the same applies. As you rightly said, there is a > ‘long chain of phenomena’ including much mind door activity and thinking > of concepts. This does not make the concepts namas however (i.e because > inevitably they have to be experienced through the mind door). The cittas > and cetasikas which cognize or ‘take’ these objects are namas. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry. To use a phrase of mine that has been noted before, I don't buy it. Thoughts do arise, and they are namas. They are not nothing, and they are not rupas. ----------------------------------------------------- Likewise> > when the DSG member sees the light and agrees with us - however great the > concepts;-). > As I said, I hope everyone keeps discussing these important topics, but > I’ll have to leave all replies til I get back. (Glad we’re on the same > page on the internal/external comments;-);-)) > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep! ;-) ----------------------------------------------- > .... > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s I was very sorry to hear the news about your mother in law’s return to > hospital, Howard and again apologise for not responding. Our best wishes > for her comfort and good care and also to you and Rita. Pls keep us > posted. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Thanks, Sarah. At present, the situation is disappointing. I appreciate your caring. ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26083 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah, So you know that reality is nama and rupa because you read from the sutta that Buddha talk about the khandhas, the ayatanas and the dhatus and you see that they are no different from nama and rupa. Now, let's go back to my original question to you. In the following passage, who directly knows? Sati and panna? or the monk? "A monk who is a Worthy One, devoid of mental fermentations -- who has attained completion, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the fetters of becoming, and is released through right knowledge -- directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as 'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because he has comprehended it, I tell you. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn001.html The Buddha claimed himself as the Buddha. However, it does not mean that he conceived being awakened, conceived in being awakened, conceived from being awakened, conceived being awakend to be 'mine', delighted in being awakened. Likewise, directly knowing oneself as a human being does not mean that one conceives human beings, conceives in human beings, conceives from human beings, conceives human beings to be 'mine', delights in human beings. Regarding Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140, I would refer to Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta An Analysis of the Properties http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn140.html A person has six properties/dhatu. However, the view that one is composed of or made up of these six properties is a self-view. Each of the six properties should be seen as it actually is with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is I am not, this is not my self.' Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 26084 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, You asked: Being mindful of what? I would rather ask: How to develop right mindfulness? But for both questions, I would refer to Satipatthana Sutta*, Anapanasati Sutta**, and Kayagata-sati Sutta***. Peace, Victor * http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html ** http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html *** http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 26085 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, Larry, and all, The view "a person does not exist", or more generally, "being does not exist" is a wrong view. (9) "Again, with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, the Tathagata sees beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and he understands how beings pass on according to their actions thus: 'These worthy beings who were ill-conducted in body, speech and mind, revilers of noble ones, wrong in their views, giving effect to wrong view in their actions, on the dissolution of the body,[*p.71] after death, have reappeared in a state of deprivation, in a bad destination, in perdition, even in hell; but these worthy beings who were well-conducted in body, speech and mind, not revilers of noble ones, right in their views, giving effect to right view in their actions, on the dissolution of the body, after death, have reappeared in a good destination, even in the heavenly world.' Thus with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, he sees beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and he understands how beings pass on according to their actions. That too is a Tathagata's power... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn012.html Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Larry, And it is also good to know > that a `person' does not exist and have any sabhava. So what comes > together are citta, cetasika and rupa, and it is these that have > sabhava and are impermanent and ultimately undesirable. [snip] 26086 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:50am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Howard and all, I largely agree with you in what the term "concept" means. And in terms of name and form, I also see that concept belongs to the category of nama/name. Both name and form are dukkha/unsatisfactory/imperfect. Nibbana, the cessation of dukkha/the unsatisfactory/the imperfect, is neither nama/name nor rupa/form. However, the idea about Nibbana is nama, is dukkha/unsatisfactory/imperfect. Body is impermanent, dukkha, not self. So is the concept about body. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - [snip] 26087 From: Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:04am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Victor - In a message dated 10/13/03 2:53:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard and all, > > I largely agree with you in what the term "concept" means. And in > terms of name and form, I also see that concept belongs to the > category of nama/name. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I suspected we would be in agreement on this. There are several areas in which we are in agreement. Where we seems to disagree is in the claimed distinction between conventional speech and literal speech, and on the related issue of whether or not the Buddha taught no-self or only not-self. I do believe that there is at least one sutta in which the Buddha says something to the effect that he uses terms such as "I" but is not fooled by them. I do believe it is a sutta that is the source of that. Also, it has been my impression that the distinction between conventional and ultimate truth has its basis in the suttas. However, I am unable to give exact references for either of these. (I'm not very good at sutta references.) I do agree with you that the actuality/concept-only dichotomy is not the primary thrust of the Dhamma. (BTW, the Tibetans make much of the distinction, and some even go so far as to maintain that everything is concept-only.) The primary thrust of the Dhamma, as I see it, are the four noble truths, the tilakkhana, dependent arising, and, above all, the *practice* - the training in (or cultivation of) sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Both name and form are dukkha/unsatisfactory/imperfect. Nibbana, > the cessation of dukkha/the unsatisfactory/the imperfect, is neither > nama/name nor rupa/form. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: As I see it, the five khandhas afflicted by clinging are dukkha. The second noble truth shows dukkha to be adventitious, that it is caused by craving. The third noble truth shows that the removal of dukkha is possible, and the 4th noble truth provides the means. ----------------------------------------------------- However, the idea about Nibbana is nama, > > is dukkha/unsatisfactory/imperfect. > > Body is impermanent, dukkha, not self. So is the concept about body. > > Peace, > Victor > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26088 From: Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:34am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Howard In a message dated 10/13/2003 1:09:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > I do believe > that there is at least one sutta in which the Buddha says something to the > effect that he uses terms such as "I" but is not fooled by them. I do > believe it > is a sutta that is the source of that. Also, it has been my impression that > the distinction between conventional and ultimate truth has its basis in the > > suttas. I agree that conventional speech is laid out in the suttas much as you state. But I can't think of any instance where a distinction between conventional truth and ultimate truth is made. From what I gather, the suttas point out truths and point out non-truths, but I can't remember them pointing out things that are conventionally true. At least I don't believe it is ever spoken about in those terms. I think that is a notion that develops later. TG 26089 From: Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, Although Victor disagrees, if it makes sense to you to think that people don't exist, I think it is okay. It makes more sense to me to think people do exist as impermanent processes, also governments or anything else that arises. I don't see any problem in understanding that a person is not a self (soul). As long as one's undersanding cuts through self clinging (upadana) then that is all to the good. Larry 26090 From: robmoult Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 5:39pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > I can't think of any instance where a distinction between conventional > truth and ultimate truth is made. From what I gather, the suttas point out > truths and point out non-truths, but I can't remember them pointing out things > that are conventionally true. At least I don't believe it is ever spoken about > in those terms. I think that is a notion that develops later. Here is a quote from DN 9 (Potthapada Sutta): "Citta, these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which the Tathagata expresses himself but without grasping to them." Thanissaro Bhikkhu comments on this quote as follows: "The Commentary takes this is as the Buddha's affirmation of the idea -- which in later centuries became current in all schools of Buddhism -- that he spoke truth on two levels: conventional and ultimate. In context, though, the Buddha seems to be referring merely to the fact that he has adopted the linguistic usages of his interlocutors simply for the sake of discussion, and that they should not be interpreted out of context." Metta, Rob M :-) 26091 From: Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:27pm Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Rob M. I'm not sure what you meant to demonstrate by the below quote, but it backs up the part I was agreeing with Howard on that the Buddha used conventional language without being fooled by it. "The quote says nothing regarding "conventional and ultimate truths." The point I was making was that I didn't recall the Buddha speaking about conventional and ultimate "truths." I could be wrong, but will need a more pertinent quote to be shown that. :-) This is another one of those subtle yet important distinctions. The distinction is between 'language' and 'truth.' TG In a message dated 10/13/2003 5:41:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Here is a quote from DN 9 (Potthapada Sutta): > > "Citta, these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, > the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which > the Tathagata expresses himself but without grasping to them." > > Thanissaro Bhikkhu comments on this quote as follows: "The > Commentary takes this is as the Buddha's affirmation of the idea -- > which in later centuries became current in all schools of Buddhism -- > that he spoke truth on two levels: conventional and ultimate. In > context, though, the Buddha seems to be referring merely to the fact > that he has adopted the linguistic usages of his interlocutors > simply for the sake of discussion, and that they should not be > interpreted out of context." > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > 26092 From: Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:18pm Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, TG - In a message dated 10/13/03 5:38:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > In a message dated 10/13/2003 1:09:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > upasaka@a... writes: > > >I do believe > >that there is at least one sutta in which the Buddha says something to the > >effect that he uses terms such as "I" but is not fooled by them. I do > >believe it > >is a sutta that is the source of that. Also, it has been my impression that > > >the distinction between conventional and ultimate truth has its basis in > the > > > >suttas. > > I agree that conventional speech is laid out in the suttas much as you > state. > But I can't think of any instance where a distinction between conventional > truth and ultimate truth is made. From what I gather, the suttas point out > truths and point out non-truths, but I can't remember them pointing out > things > that are conventionally true. At least I don't believe it is ever spoken > about > in those terms. I think that is a notion that develops later. > > TG > ======================== You may well be right. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if I were wrong on this issue. I am fairly certain, though, about the business of the Buddha saying something to the effect that he uses concepts but is not fooled by them. I wish I, or someone, could recall the reference. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26093 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:12pm Subject: tipitaka.org Dear Rob K. and other Pali students, I tried < http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html. > several times. Not so long ago I got the connection, no problem. But now they say: not listed. Did they change anything? Can anyone help me? In a month time I will have to get the Tiika texts of the Visuddimagga. Nina. 26094 From: Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 5:40pm Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) In a message dated 10/13/2003 7:19:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > You may well be right. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if I > were wrong on this issue. I am fairly certain, though, about the business of > the > Buddha saying something to the effect that he uses concepts but is not > fooled > by them. I wish I, or someone, could recall the reference. > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard That is indeed a quote almost perfectly put from the suttas. Although the Buddha might have said 'language' rather than 'concepts.' I just recently read it but can't remember where it is off the top of my head. TG 26095 From: monomuni Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:33pm Subject: Muni = Silenced & Solitary Friends: The Solitary Sage (Muni = Silenced One) Conquering all Understanding all Seeing all Knowing all Detached from all Withdrawn from all Released by eliminating All Craving for the sensible And even for being itself! So silenced in mind So stilled in speech So calmed in body Such One the Wise know as a Sage ... Friendship is truly GREATEST The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Bhikkhu Samahita, SRI LANKA. WWW: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Some are born in a womb; evildoers (are born) in woeful states; the well-conducted go to blissful states; the Undefiled Ones pass away into Nibbana. Random Dhammapada Verse 126 26096 From: monomuni Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:27pm Subject: What is Impersonality ? Friends: ANATTA Not Anyone, Anything, Anywhere … The Lord Buddha once pointed out: “All is void of a self or what belongs to a self! Within me is thus not anything belonging to anyone, anywhere, nor is there anything belonging to me in anyone nor anywhere …” Majjhima Nikaya sutta 106 [ii 106] The Way to the Imperturbable … --- Passing processes: The is no creator but only creation The is no agent but only actions The is no observer but only seeing The is no mind but only thinking The is no walker but only walking The is no stable entity but only a process Of change, never the same, always new. --- Corelessness: As nothing lasts & all is being momentary it cannot be neither “I”, “Me”, “Ego” nor “Mine”. All phenomena – whether internal or external – are really ownerless, impersonal, lacking all identity, passing, without a self, void of soul or any other lasting core. --- The Mirror: Hold up a mirror in front of your self and say: Is there anybody inside this mirror ? No! Nobody is inside the mirror ! Is there anybody behind this mirror ? No! Nobody is behind the mirror ! There is only this mirror !!! There is only this reflected image !!! Though void of a self, empty of stable entity, impersonal, lacking any fixed identity this fascinating changeable phenomena may be named, pointed to, designated & labeled. Still it remains only an image with nothing Behind it … There is only this mirror !!! --- Anatta: This doctrine of universal impersonality is the core & particular of Buddha’s teachings. It is subtle, difficult to comprehend yet most rewarding as it disables all destructive egoism. All detrimental states are rooted in this false theory of a persisting & autonomous self! All real freedom is absent of this assumption. Friendship is truly GREATEST The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Bhikkhu Samahita Cypress Hut, Gangamulla Bambarella, Tawalantenna 20838. Central Province. SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... WWW: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Should a person commit evil, he should not do it again and again; he should not find pleasure therein: painful is the accumulation of evil. Random Dhammapada Verse 117 26097 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi RobK, > > > > S:>> most > > > (average) people, hearing undesirable sounds is akusala vipaka and > > so on. > > > There are exceptions. For example, for someone who is almost deaf, > > hearing > > > the `boom, boom' might be kusala vipaka. > > _____ > R:> Dear Sarah, > > Could you provide a reference for this: that a sound may be > > intrinsically undesirable and yet the hearing of it is kusala vipaka. > .... > S: This was my understanding of the passage RobM asked about in the post, > i.e: > .. > RobM: > P172 of CMA, "It is distinguishable according to what is found > > desireable at one time and undesireable at another time by average > > (men such as) accountants, government officials, burgesses, land > > owners and merchants". > .. > S: I'd be glad to hear any other interpretations you or others might have. ______ I wrote to Dan and RobM about this several times. The sammohavinodani explains this about average people so that it can be roughly understood. It then goes on to explain that in the ultimate sense it only depends on the kamma - not on anyones judgement, (not even English teachers). ________ > ..... > S:> > We cannot know for sure at any moment what objects experienced are > > > desirable and undesirable and it's not of consequence. Only the > > sight of a > > > live Buddha is definitely kusala vipaka for all. > > _____ > RobK:> The Atthasalini says: "dung eating pigs on smelling the odour of > dung > > become > > joyful, thinking;'we shall get something to eat' nevertheless their > > eye-consciousness (a vipaka) in the seeing of the dung, nose > > consciousness (a vipaka) in smelling its odour and tongue > > consciousness (a vipaka)in tasting its flavour is only unprofitable > > result."" endquote > > Do you disagree with this? > .... > S: A good point. I've asked Khun Sujin about this particular point before > and will perhaps raise it again with the Atth quote if you like. What I > wrote above (about seeing the live Buddha) was as she explained it to us. > At such a time it is kusala vipaka for everyone regardless. At all other > times, she said, we cannot be sure. > > Perhaps in the Atth quote these are general examples, just like we might > refer to the hearing of `booms' or thunder as akusala vipaka. However, it > doesn't necessarily mean that at every moment of seeing the dung and so on > (for every pig)that it is akusala vipaka, just as we cannot say that at > every moment of hearing `booms' it is. There are so many sense door > processes. What do you think? > ________ It is irrelavant how many sense door processes occur. While seeing the Buddha there can be processes that take the visible object of Buddha and others that take something else. It is not a matter of trying to pinpoint at any moment whether there is akusala vipaka or kusala vipaka, but that some objects if seen, heard, tasted, touched or smelt are intrinsically undesirable. In the case of sound let us leave aside a 'boom boom' and take the case of the sound produced by someone who is angry. One may be almost deaf and hearing the shout or scream may please them, but is absolutely akusala vipaka. The fact that the sotapassada - the special rupa produced by kamma which is the basis for hearing - is produced by kusala kamma is a different matter. You say that for some pigs, some of the time, seeing the same dung is kusala vipaka and sometimes akusala vipaka. No, not unless someone scuptures the dung into some artistic masterpiece. The same with smelling the dung, unless the extreta of the dung had been feeding on perfume. RobertK 26098 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:15pm Subject: Re: tipitaka.org --Dear Nina, Tipitaka.org is currently down. Hopefully they will come back sooner or later. If you have access to windows computer you can order the disc from them which has the whole tipitika, commentaries in a much easier to search format that on the web.It saves time in the long run. with respect robertK - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob K. and other Pali students, > I tried < http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html. > several > times. Not so long ago I got the connection, no problem. But now they say: > not listed. Did they change anything? Can anyone help me? In a month time I > will have to get the Tiika texts of the Visuddimagga. > Nina. 26100 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:18pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Howard, I largely agree with TG's posts to you, although I am rather reluctant to ascribe the term "conventional" to speech. The Buddha taught the four noble truths. He did not call them the four conventional truths, nor did he call them the four ultimate truths. And I have not seen anywhere in the discourses where the Buddha or anyone else used the dichotomy of the so-called conventional and the so-called ultimate. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - [snip] 26101 From: peterdac4298 Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 0:19am Subject: Greatings from Vientiane Hi Everyone This is coming from Vientiane, Laos. I'm having to renew my visa and this requires leaving Thailand and reentering. But it does make for an interesting excursion from the wat pa at Baan Taad. Travel broadens the mind and seeing a culturally similar location with a different colonial history makes for some interesting reflections. The roads here are appalling compared to Thailand, but the internet connection is better than I was getting in Watford, UK. Well, it seems that way after months of painfully slow connections in Udonthani. As usual, it is most refreshing to read your posts and see the Dhamma flourishing online. I don't expect to ordain for another month or so, at least that is what I'd like, which is precisely why it will be something else, Dhamma training being what it is. It is so nice practicing in Thailand, and even Laos for that matter. The so called inscrutable Orient only seems so from the point of view of anyone totally unfamiliar with practice. But I find I can get around OK if I assume everyone is picking me up on lapses of mindfulness, it seems to explain almost all the interactions I have with people in this part of the world. This also applied to some Chinese people that I was getting to know in Watford during the last couple of years before coming out here, though some minor differences in style were apparent: hence this amazing insight!) Ajahn Maha Boowa is an amazing person, and incredibly active for 90 years old/young. I am currently reading his translated biography of Ajahn Munn, to be followed by the translation of his analysis of Ajahn Munn's techniques and practices, the "Patipadha". It is rather wacky and spooky but marvelous reading by candle light in ones kuti amidst all the noise of the jungle at evening time. But each inspiring story is followed by some very clear and instructive Dhammic analysis. Much emphasis is placed on understanding the nature of the 'heart' or Citta, (what I like to think of as the right hemisphere of the brain, (though am told that this itself would not explain rebirth)). It is the kind of (for me) fresh approach to Dhamma that I was looking for. The entire structure of the Dhamma seems to concern the mind in its deluded state. When the mind is free of defilements it is not describable in coherent terms, though clearly knowable. I needed to find a new source of saddha/faith and this approach certainly provides it for me. In combination with the 'Budho' mantra, for developing samadhi, my practice is becoming much fresher. Rob Moult's post #23712 to Peter_V was a significant inspiration for seeking a fresh approach to the question of faith, and I even made a hard copy of it, thanks Rob. And in turn, an opportunity to post on dsg is a further inspiration for maintaining wholesome states in mind. Don't know when I'll get the chance to post again, but will certainly grasp it when ever it arises!) Cheers Peter Peter Da Costa 26102 From: Purnomo . Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] for Purnomo I am fine. I always read dsg. Don't worry. Can you help me? Now, I am searching a article about 'building a business the buddhist way' or ' how do we get be a rich the Buddhist way' metta, purnomo >From: "christine_forsyth" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] for Purnomo >Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 09:28:21 -0000 > >Dear Purnomo, > >I hope you are reading dsg still. I was thinking of you today with >metta and karuna. A year since the Bali Bombing. Just wondering how >you, your family and friends are getting on. >May you all be safe and protected, May you all be healthy and strong, >May you all be happy of heart and mind, May you all live with ease >and well-being. > >metta and peace, >Christine 26103 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > ---> In the case of sound let us leave aside a 'boom boom' and take the > case of the sound produced by someone who is angry. One may be almost > deaf and hearing the shout or scream may please them, but is > absolutely akusala vipaka. The fact that the sotapassada - the > special rupa produced by kamma which is the basis for hearing - is > produced by kusala kamma is a different matter. > >. > > RobertK ______ Dear Sarah, In a 'tilt to your direction' (as Howard says)I like to also bring up the case of temperature. Take the case of a man with a fever. Someone places a cool cloth on his head and this brings relief. To someone not feeling hot this might be akusala vipaka while to the sick man perhaps not. Hard to know about these when it comes to temperature in particular. On the other hand a medicine has a bitter , foul taste . It is akusala vipaka by tongue but gives good benefit. While another food may be genuinely delicious and kusala vipaka through tongue but causes illness, slowly. Temperature, though, is harder to specify . RobertK 26104 From: robmoult Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:30am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Rob M. > > I'm not sure what you meant to demonstrate by the below quote, but it backs > up the part I was agreeing with Howard on that the Buddha used conventional > language without being fooled by it. "The quote says nothing regarding > "conventional and ultimate truths." The point I was making was that I didn't recall > the Buddha speaking about conventional and ultimate "truths." I could be wrong, > but will need a more pertinent quote to be shown that. :-) This is another > one of those subtle yet important distinctions. The distinction is between > 'language' and 'truth.' > > TG > > In a message dated 10/13/2003 5:41:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > Here is a quote from DN 9 (Potthapada Sutta): > > > > "Citta, these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, > > the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which > > the Tathagata expresses himself but without grasping to them." > > > > Thanissaro Bhikkhu comments on this quote as follows: "The > > Commentary takes this is as the Buddha's affirmation of the idea -- > > which in later centuries became current in all schools of Buddhism -- > > that he spoke truth on two levels: conventional and ultimate. In > > context, though, the Buddha seems to be referring merely to the fact > > that he has adopted the linguistic usages of his interlocutors > > simply for the sake of discussion, and that they should not be > > interpreted out of context." > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) > > I guess I should have made my point clear and I should not have assumed that you could read my mind :-) I found that Thanissaro Bhikkhu's comment that this section of this Sutta as being the source of the commentaries delineating "conventional" and "ultimate" as interesting and relevant. I don't mean to take a position on this issue. Sorry for the confusion. Metta, Rob M :-) 26105 From: Sukin Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Larry, > Although Victor disagrees, if it makes sense to you to think that people > don't exist, I think it is okay. It makes more sense to me to think > people do exist as impermanent processes, also governments or anything > else that arises. I don't see any problem in understanding that a person > is not a self (soul). As long as one's undersanding cuts through self > clinging (upadana) then that is all to the good. So are you saying that 'clinging' is the only problem and no matter what is the experience, all that really matters is that one should not cling to experiences? Is panna the activity of making a decision not to cling? Or is it that because panna understands conditioned realities, that this in itself is accompanied by detachment? I don't think the Buddhadhamma is about 'attitude of mind' in the sense that with this in mind, one can deal with experiences appropriately. There is no self. The practice of satipatthana is not the matter of deciding what to think of experiences. But because panna has been gradually developed through knowing more and more clearly the nature of conditioned reality, avijja correspondingly becomes weak. And avijja is what leads to sankhara, through clinging, to birth and death and back again. So I think it is very important that the distinction is made, as you have briefly discussed elsewhere, that panna of the level of satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas and not concepts as object. What do you think? Metta, Sukin. 26106 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Victor, > You asked: Being mindful of what? I would rather ask: How to > develop right mindfulness? But for both questions, I would refer to > Satipatthana Sutta*, Anapanasati Sutta**, and Kayagata-sati Sutta***. > I wish I had the energy and time to go sentence by sentence, word by word with you in reading these suttas. But patience is not something I am known for. ;-/ Perhaps in Myanmar Sarah and I will together think of 'a way how to get Victor to understand!!' Just kidding ;-). So you see I am busy these days too, getting ready for my trip to Myanmar and at the same time, arranging for my wife and kids to go to India. I'll make a few general comments here though. As you have seen here, there is the view that sati is conditioned, which means it arises only when the appropriate conditions arise. So when someone *tries* to have sati and directs the mind to any object, that is seen *not* as sati. Sati being kusala and wanting and purposeful (conventionally speaking) direction of mind is not, there is the understanding that the latter can not lead to the former. As Jon has been trying to show in his discussion on the 'samatha' thread, that only this moment of samatha arising and known as such, can be the foundation of samatha in the future and so be said to be the development of it. The same applies to sati. So the texts may be talking about being mindful of the 'body in the body', 'mind in the mind' etc. but this is all descriptive. But I know that you don't think so. ;-) Moreover, what *is* meant by 'body in the body' etc.? Before the Abhidhamma, I used to struggle with this idea. I would feel like I 'got it', but then this would slip away. In any case, what I 'got' is now understood as being the 'general feeling of body', only without mental proliferation. But now my understanding is this: 'observer', 'observed', 'part', 'location'(as in case of sensation from around the hand being different from one coming from the forehead), is all *thinking*. In actual moments of satipatthana, there is no idea of me, or other, or hand, or feet, 'nor here nor there' as Howard likes to remark. Any such idea only increases atta sanna. Which is also the reason why I do not think it a good idea to 'go sit under a tree and practice vipassana' specifically! ;-) Unless of course, this is something I do normally anyway. I think, if mindfulness was simply the matter of attention made upon this mind and body, *as us worldlings know it*, it would not be such a great and rare event for the Buddha and the Teachings to come to be in this world. The probability of attaining enlightenment would not be so rare. We all since childhood perceive this gross body fairly clear, and from being driven by thoughts and feelings to observing them objectively is not such a great step forward. The problem is not that we have not learnt to observe, but that there is so much avijja that we are fooled even by our best intentions. That all that arises is conditioned and conditioning other dhammas. That if this moment is dictated by avijja, then *that* is what is being accumulated. And if indeed we view the Teachings with Wrong View and be lead to wrong practices, then we are moving in a direction other than the correct way. I am short of time, so I have to end here. Metta, Sukin. 26107 From: robmoult Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:38am Subject: Re: Greatings from Vientiane - Lurkers take note! Hi Peter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "peterdac4298" wrote: > Rob Moult's post #23712 to Peter_V was a significant inspiration for > seeking a fresh approach to the question of faith, and I even made a > hard copy of it, thanks Rob. You are more than welcome! I had no idea that anybody read that message; it was quite long and I did not get any replies. To hear that it was a significant inspiration to you as you become a monk is quite uplifiting for me. This drives home the point that one can never fully understand or appreciate the impact that we have on the rest of the world. Lurkers take note: your question could easily prompt an answer that is of interest to many people and your question could really help another person with a similar concern. Metta, Rob M :-) 26108 From: Samahita Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:06am Subject: Re: Optimizing Invitation ! Dear Dan D > Dear Bhikkhu Samahita, > This "invitation day" sounds constructive and helpful -- for bhikkhus. > Curiously, the Chinese communists tried this same ritual > It was a disaster. So is it! Many if not all things done within the fanatic mentality are disasters. Even good things turns bad! So is the results of a fanatic mind ... Samahita 26109 From: robmoult Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] for Purnomo and others Hi Purnomo (and others); If you are looking for simple, easy to digest articles about how to lead a Buddhist life, the best source that I know of is Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda. His articles have been published in many languages (including Malay and Indonesian). I suggest that you visit the following website and download one or more articles (some translations can also be downloaded here). http://www.ksridhammananda.com/ Here is a list of English language articles available for download from this website: - Are Buddhists Idol Worshippers? - Buddhism and Astrology - Buddhism and Modern Society - Buddhism and the duties of a lay Buddhist - Buddhism and The Free Thinkers - Buddhism as a Religion - Buddhism For The Future - Buddhist Attitude Towards Other Religions - Buddhist Principles for Human Dignity - Can Religion Bring Peace? - Celebration of Wesak - Day to day Buddhist Practices - Flower of Mankind - Great Virtues of The Buddha and the Dhamma - How to Choose a Religion? - How to Overcome Your Difficulties? - How To Practise Buddhism? - Human Dignity in Buddhism - Is Buddhism Practical Today? - Is it Wrong to be ambitious? - Leading a Buddhist Life - Let Peace Prevail on Earth - Life is Uncertain, Death is Certain - Moral And Ethical Conduct Of a Buddhist - Noble Living - Practical Buddhism - Problems and Responsibilities - Religion in a Multi Religious Society - Religion in a Scientific Age - Sayings of The Buddha - Sri Lanka's Contribution To Buddhism - Status of Woman in Buddhism - The Aim and Way of Life - The Buddhist concept of heaven and hell - The Buddhist Way - The Purpose of Life - What is this Religion? - Who creates problems? - Why Buddhism? - Why Religion? - Why religious tolerance? - Why we should Practice Buddhism? - You are Responsible I hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Purnomo ." wrote: > Now, I am searching a article about 'building a business the buddhist way' > or ' how do we get be a rich the Buddhist way' PS: I think that Christine is on her way to Thailand, so she might not reply so quickly. This is why I jumped in. 26110 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi RobK (& Rob M), Thanks for your additional comments. I’m having a little break from must-do chores, so I can’t resist following this a little further (in spite of other intentions;-)), especially in case I have made any mistakes or careless comments. ..... --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > I wrote to Dan and RobM about this several times. The > sammohavinodani explains this about average people so that it can be > roughly understood. It then goes on to explain that > in the ultimate sense it only depends on the kamma - not on anyones > judgement, (not even English teachers). .... Agreed. I don’t think there’s ever be any question that anyone’s judgement can be relied on (especially not the latter;-)). ..... > It is irrelavant how many sense door processes occur. While seeing > the Buddha there can be processes that take the visible object of > Buddha and others that take something else. It is not a matter of > trying to pinpoint at any moment whether there is akusala vipaka or > kusala vipaka, but that some objects if seen, heard, tasted, touched > or smelt are intrinsically undesirable. .... Agreed - IF seen, heard etc. The point I was trying to make with the fireworks (obviously not at all clearly), was that if the noises are not heard or heard just a little/infrequently, then there isn’t the same akusala vipaka to hear the undesirable sounds. .... > In the case of sound let us leave aside a 'boom boom' and take the > case of the sound produced by someone who is angry. One may be almost > deaf and hearing the shout or scream may please them, but is > absolutely akusala vipaka. The fact that the sotapassada - the > special rupa produced by kamma which is the basis for hearing - is > produced by kusala kamma is a different matter. .... Yes, the sotapassada rupas produced by kusala kamma that make it possible for the akusala vipaka to arise is an interesting diversion. We also agree that being pleased at what is heard is irrelevant. However, I think that being almost deaf or being far away from the noise is likely to be a condition for fewer moments of /less akusala vipaka to hear the undesirable sounds. This was simply the point I was trying to make. We both agree that undesirable sounds can only be heard by akusala vipaka. ..... > You say that for some pigs, some of the time, seeing the same dung is > kusala vipaka and sometimes akusala vipaka. No, not unless someone > scuptures the dung into some artistic masterpiece. The same with > smelling the dung, unless the extreta of the dung had been feeding on > perfume. .... When I wrote ‘there are so many sense door processes’, I meant that even whilst (from an outward appearance) looking at the dung, there is seeing, hearing and so on. So it depends on the experience at the time whether there is any smelling and so on. I agree we don’t need to count or calculate cittas or processes or doorways, but I do think it’s impossible to say at any moment whether (from an appearance) a particular kusala or akusala vipaka citta is arising for any pig or person as Dan would say. I am sure that some of my comments were carelessly written and I appreciate your pointing this out. RobM, I think (that as pretty average people) we can all say that this or that is a desirable/undesirable object and have a fair idea (though as someone pointed out before, when it comes to music tastes, many average people lose this fair idea;-)), but actually the agreeable/disagreeable objects can only be discerned by the vipaka cittas experiencing them. Please let me know if either of you still have other ideas. RobK, this reminds me of a discussion we had before about the blob on the page of a Dhamma text. We might say as a general rule that seeing the text is kusala vipaka experiencing the desirable visible object, but I think that only a Buddha can really be sure of this at any given moment. I think it’s an incredibly complex area and I’m very glad it’s still being discussed and any mistakes I make are being checked. Hopefully I can leave you both to discuss further. I think these discussions between us (even if we don’t agree in the end) are a very good thing;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 26111 From: monomuni Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:44am Subject: Equanimity (Upekkha) Friends: Equanimity (Upekkha): Unaffected On-looking, Neutral Indifference Mental Balance Impartiality Non-preference Non-opposition Is of 9 kinds: 1: Six-factored Equanimity when sensing: Whenever seeing an agreeable or disagreeable object with the eye; Whenever hearing an agreeable or disagreeable sound with the ear; Whenever smelling an agreeable or disagreeable smell with the nose; Whenever tasting an agreeable or disagreeable taste with the tongue; Whenever touching an agreeable or disagreeable thing with the body; Whenever thinking an agreeable or disagreeable thought with the mind; The monk freed of mental fermentation becomes neither glad nor sad, but remains just mindful & aware within equanimity. 2: Equanimity as an infinite Divine State: With a mind absorbed in equanimity he pervades the first direction with this noble indifference, then a second one, then a third one, then the fourth one, just so above, below and all around. Everywhere identifying himself with all beings, he is pervading the whole world with mind full of impartiality, with a great mind, refined & endless, all freed from hate and ill-will. 3: Equanimity as a link to Enlightenment: Dependent on relinquishment of all states, he gradually develops the 7th link to Enlightenment that is Equanimity. (M i 11) 4: Equanimity as Effort: Neither straining nor lax he regularly focuses attention & brings forward on-looking equanimity in all situations. (A i 257) 5: Equanimity regarding all Constructions: Whether the object is a mental, verbal or physical construction, He is neither attracted nor repulsed, yet remains just aware. 6: Equanimity as neutral Feeling: Equanimity is the often neglected feeling of neither physical pain nor pleasure, neither mental joy nor distress. It is disagreeable, when one is unaware of it, yet quite agreeable, when one is aware of it! 7: Equanimity by Insight: If it had not been accumulated, it would not now be mine. Whatever is not now accumulated, will never become mine in the future. What exists now, what has already come into being, all that I leave behind … !!! (M ii 264-65) 8: Equanimity as functional mental Balance: Equanimity is here in the sense of non-excess resulting in the feeling of even & equal taste of the mental states & abilities born together & associated with it! 9: Purifying Equanimity: The stilling of all interest & opposition, the cooling of all pleasure & pain, the silencing of all gladness & sadness in the unified absorption of the 4th Jhana meditation. Source: The Path of Purification. IV 156-170 Visuddhimagga I [160-1] By Buddhaghosa (5th Century) Friendship is truly GREATEST The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Bhikkhu Samahita Cypress Hut, Gangamulla Bambarella, Tawalantenna 20838. Central Province. SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... WWW: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Hard to find is a man of great wisdom: such a man is not born everywhere. Where such a wise man is born, that family thrives happily. Random Dhammapada Verse 193 26112 From: peterdac4298 Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:56am Subject: Re: Greatings from Vientiane - Lurkers take note! Hi Rob To be very honest, I have yet to read the post in its entirety. I will be doing just that latter this evening as I await my visa issue tomorrow. Once I had read your account of the way saddha affected the other faculties I became so enthused I did not have the cool to read through the remainder. Such is the kamma of this dyslexic!) But it does go to show how much good stuff us slow readers miss, especially in a group like this when brilliant posts appear on a daily basis. I am sorry to hear that there was no response to the original, it at least deserved some commendation. But then even I did not read it at the time of its original appearance. It came up as I was doing a random brows some good while latter. However, I won't let that stop my further reflection on its contents. The impact of the Dhamma on the rest of the world is an excellent topic for discussion in its own right. It is something that Bhikkhus are encouraged to reflect upon on a regular (ie daily) basis, and certainly something that the committed posters of dsg should do too. Thanks again Peter. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Peter, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "peterdac4298" > wrote: > > Rob Moult's post #23712 to Peter_V was a significant inspiration > for > > seeking a fresh approach to the question of faith, and I even made > a > > hard copy of it, thanks Rob. > > You are more than welcome! I had no idea that anybody read that > message; it was quite long and I did not get any replies. To hear > that it was a significant inspiration to you as you become a monk is > quite uplifiting for me. This drives home the point that one can > never fully understand or appreciate the impact that we have on the > rest of the world. > > Lurkers take note: your question could easily prompt an answer that > is of interest to many people and your question could really help > another person with a similar concern. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 26113 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Greatings from Vientiane - Lurkers take note! Hi PeterD (Manu & RobM), Great to read your news and best wishes. Exactly what we're all interested to hear. Thank you so much for thinking of us and all your positive feedback on the posts here. I'm very glad you reminded everyone of RobM's very detailed and inspiring post on saddha and that it was so inspiring: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m19577.html How nice if you could meet us (and several other DSGers)in Bangkok this weekend or the following one.....any chance??? (we could help with the ticket). Also, another lurking member, Manu who also has keen interest, lives in Vientiane. We recently sent him some tapes and Sukin has contact. I don't know if he's reading posts or around, but let Sukin or me know off-list if you'd like to contact him. Metta, Sarah ====== 26114 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: ... > The experience of tranquility is something I aspire to identify as > a quality distinct and different from the other "Beautiful > Universals". Any reason why that particular cetasika/quality? What about the other "Beautiful Universals", or all the unwholesome cetasikas, or citta, or ruupa? Do you see these as less worth identifying? If it's samatha you aspire to then as I've mentioned I think it would be useful to get to recognise kusala moments as they occur in your daily life at present. > Also, I still don't have a clear idea why the Buddha recommended > samma > samadhi or what is the exact relationship between tranquility and > concentration in samma samadhi. If you could give a particular passage/context that would help. As you know, in the teachings the same term can have different meanings, depending on the context. This is the case with samma samadhi. In general terms, samma samadhi means samadhi (concentration; ekaggataa cetasika) that is kusala, that is, that accompanies a kusala mind-state. Depending on the context, this may be a reference to samadhi of the level of samatha or samadhi of the level of vipassana, or both. As a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, samma samadhi means the ekaggataa cetasika that accompanies a moment of path consciousness (mundane or supramundane), that is, is always to the samadhi that accompanies moments of vipassana. I don't know if this helps. Jon 26115 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:23am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > "The quote says nothing regarding > "conventional and ultimate truths." The point I was making was that I > didn't recall > the Buddha speaking about conventional and ultimate "truths." I could > be wrong, > but will need a more pertinent quote to be shown that. :-) This is > another > one of those subtle yet important distinctions. The distinction is > between > 'language' and 'truth.' ..... Perhaps the references and comments in this old post of Robert Eddison's will help: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m5899.html Rob Edd: >I am puzzled as to just what you mean by this, since the term 'paramattha' most definitely does occur in the Suttas, though not in the sense in which it is used in the Commentaries. Are you perhaps referring to paramattha sacca (truth in the highest sense)? If so, I would agree that this term is absent in the Suttas, though I would suggest that the notion is present. That is to say, the idea that something may be true conventionally but not ultimately is inferrable from the Suttas, even though it is expressed in different terms. What the Commentaries call conventional truth (sammuti-sacca), the Suttas call 'worldly consensus' (lokasamañña), 'worldly language' (lokanirutti), 'worldly usage' (lokavohaara), or 'worldly convention' (lokapaññatti). What the Commentaries call truth in the highest sense (paramattha-sacca) is indicated in several ways in the Suttas, but most unambiguously when the Buddha prefaces a statement with "In truth and reality..." (saccato thetato). E.g. "....since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what belongs to self...." (Alagadduupama Sutta ) "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." (Yamaka Sutta)< ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 26116 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Victor, and Larry and All --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Larry, Jon, and all, > Why did the Buddha teach right concentration/samma samadhi? As a > factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, it leads to the cessation of > dukkha. > > Specifically, > > > "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the > dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the > infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell > you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html In a note to his translation of this passage (NDB, p309, n. 13), Bhikkhu Bodhi says: 'In what follows the Buddha will show the attainment of arahantship (or the state of non-returning) through a method that employs tranquillity as a basis for insight.' In other words, on his reading, the sutta is about developing insight. Regarding your comments on the extract from MN 14 below, I agree with what you say as far as it goes, but would like to add something about right concentration/samma samadhi. To be 'right/samma', the concentration/samadhi must be kusala of the level of either samatha (this would lead to 'the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states' mentioned in the text) or vipassana (leading to the 'something more peaceful than that'). So it comes back agaain to the question of what these 2 forms of mental development comprise. To my understanding, concentration developed for its own sake cannot be kusala/right/samma concentration. Jon > Let me quote from MN14 Culadukkahkkhandha Sutta* the following > passage: > > > "Mahanama, there is still a state unabanddoned by you internally, > owing to which at times states of greed, hate, and delusion invade > your mind and remain; for were that state already abandoned by you > internally you would not be living the home life, you would not be > enjoying sensual pleasures. It is because that state is > unabandoned > by you internally that you are living the home life and enjoying > sensual pleasures. > "Even though a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is > with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little > gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is > the danger in them, as long as he still does not attain to the > rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart > from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, > he may still be attracted to sensual pleasures. But when a noble > disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how > sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and > much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains > to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, > apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than > that, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasure. > > > How does one attain to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from > sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something > more peaceful than that? > > With right concentration/samma samadhi. > > Without right concentration/samma samadhi, one would still be > attracted to sensual pleasures. 26117 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:41am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Sarah and all, I would be interested to learn where in the discourses the Buddha or anyone else used the dichotomy of the so-called conventional and the so-called ultimate. Specifically, I would like to learn where in the discourses the Buddha or anyone else designated something as ultimate in contrast to something as conventional. If the idea that something may be true conventionally but not ultimately is inferrable from the Suttas, how? Where in the discourses did the Buddha or anyone else claim something as conventionally true but ultimately not true? Given that the Buddha prefaced the statement "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." with the phrase "In truth and reality," in Yamaka Sutta, did the Buddha ever say that conventionally speaking, the Tathagata is to be found [i.e. in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi TG, > [snip] > What the Commentaries call truth in the highest sense (paramattha- sacca) > is > indicated in several ways in the Suttas, but most unambiguously when the > Buddha prefaces a statement with "In truth and reality..." (saccato > thetato). > > E.g. > > "....since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what > belongs > to self...." > (Alagadduupama Sutta ) > > "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found > [i.e. > in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." > (Yamaka Sutta)< > ***** > Metta, > > Sarah 26118 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon and all, Regarding your comment to the passage from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html could you explain more about what you wanted to say with Bhikkhu Bodhi's reading? Regarding your comment To be 'right/samma', the concentration/samadhi must be kusala of the level of either samatha (this would lead to 'the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states' mentioned in the text) or vipassana (leading to the 'something more peaceful than that'). how did you get that idea? Is that idea based your reading or personal experience or personal understanding? Also, where did you get the idea that vipassana is what leads to 'something more peaceful than that'? You also said that concentration developed for its own sake cannot be kusala/right/samma concentration. I am not sure what your point is. Are you trying to define what right concentration is? I know for myself that the Buddha taught what right concentration is, and that right concentration is necessary in realizing the cessation of the dukkha. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor, and Larry and All [snip] 26119 From: Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Sukin: "So I think it is very important that the distinction is made, as you have briefly discussed elsewhere, that panna of the level of satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas and not concepts as object." Hi Sukin, Why is this important? Larry 26120 From: Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "To be 'right/samma', the concentration/samadhi must be kusala of the level of either samatha (this would lead to 'the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states' mentioned in the text) or vipassana (leading to the 'something more peaceful than that')." Hi Jon, I took this "something more peaceful than that" to refer to the higher jhanas, the ones without rapture and pleasure. I would say to be "right" concentration has to have the hindrances suppressed or at least there has to be the understanding that hindrances are unwholesome and unprofitable. I think one could make a good faith effort without being especially proficient. If a person thinks they can't attempt to suppress the pursuit of sense pleasures for even a half hour they could at least recognize and identify this attachment. That would do something. Larry 26121 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 7:41pm Subject: Re: Greatings from Vientiane - Lurkers take note! Hi Peter, Rob M, James and all, Peter wrote to Rob M: -------------------- > The impact of the Dhamma on the rest of the world is an excellent topic for discussion in its own right. It is something that Bhikkhus are encouraged to reflect upon on a regular (ie daily) basis, and certainly something that the committed posters of dsg should do too. > ---------------------------------- My thoughts keep coming back to the Muslim student James wrote about; If she were to change her religion her father would have her killed, actually killed. There is no self, no living being, who is a Buddhist or a Muslim. So there is no need for any conversion, let alone any sign of conversion from Islam to Buddhism. All that really exists is a group of momentary, mental and physical phenomena. They were caused by the momentary mental and physical phenomena that immediately preceded them. They, in turn, will condition another group of momentary mental and physical phenomena to arise immediately after them (in less than a billionth of a second). This process has continued for countless aeons and, [provided nothing is done about it], it will continue for countless aeons to come. At the level of conventional, everyday life there is no pressure, no obligation, to do anything to stop the process of phenomena. After all, since all else is illusion, what harm is being done? The point of the Buddha's teaching is to simply understand this ultimate reality in which there are no living beings and in which there is no help or harm that can be done to living beings. This reality can only be understood right now. There is no time and no need for any kind of 'Buddhist' rite or ritual. (Rite and ritual are part of the illusion.) Even formal meditation is part of the illusion. The real meditation -- the one that puts an end to suffering -- is the momentary mental phenomenon, 'panna' (right understanding). So simply understand right now, the nature of the present conditioned reality, its cause, its cessation and the Path leading to its cessation. There is no reason to do anything else -- there is no reason to do anything that would differ, in any way, from normal, everyday life (whether it be Muslim or non-Muslim). Kind regards, Ken H 26122 From: Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 8:48pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 24 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [Regarding the discriminations of attha ("meaning") and dhamma ("law")...] 24. This same meaning is shown in the Abhidhamma by the following analysis: (a) 'Knowledge about suffering is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the origin of suffering is the "discrimination of law". [Knowledge about the cessation of suffering is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the way leading to the cessation of suffering is the "discrimination of law]... (b) 'Knowledge about cause is the "discrimination of law". Knowledge about the fruit of a cause is the "discrimination of meaning"... (c) 'Knowledge about whatever things are born, become, brought to birth, produced, completed, made manifest, is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the things from which those things were born, became, were brought to birth, produced, completed, made manifest, is the "discrimination of law"... (d) 'Knowledge about ageing and death is the "discrimination meaning". Knowledge about the origin of ageing and death is the "discrimination of law". [Knowledge about the cessation of ageing and death is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the way leading to the cessation of ageing and death is the "discrimination of law". Knowledge about birth ... becoming ... clinging ... craving ... feeling ... contact ... the sixfold base ... mentality-materiality ... consciousness ... knowledge about formations is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the origin of formations is the "discrimination of law".] Knowledge about the cessation of formations is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the way leading to the cessation of formations is the "discrimination of law" ... (e) 'Here a bhikkhu knows the Dhamma (Law)--the Discourses, Songs, [Expositions, Stanzas, Exclamations, Sayings, Birth Stories, Marvels, and] Answers to Questions--this is called the "discrimination of law". He knows the meaning of whatever is said thus : "This is the meaning of this that was said; this is the meaning of this that was said"--this is called the "discrimination of meaning" ... (f) 'What states are profitable? On an occasion when profitable consciousness of the sense sphere has arisen [that is accompanied by joy and associated with knowledge, having a visible datum as its object ... or a mental datum as its object, or contingent upon whatever it may be, on that occasion there is contact ... (for elision see Dhs. 1) ... there is non-wavering]--these things are profitable. Knowledge about these things is the "discrimination of law". Knowledge about their result is the "discrimination of meaning:' ... (Vbh. 293-95). (8) ------------------- (8) This quotation has been filled out from the Vibha.nga text for clarity. 26123 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: tipitaka.org Dear Robert, I have an iMac, no windows. I am lost. Is there another web that has the Vis Tiika? Can you let me know if and when Tipitaka org comes back? I can use any presentation, because I have my own system to put it into Velthuys. Nina. op 14-10-2003 07:15 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > Tipitaka.org is currently down. Hopefully they will come back sooner > or later. If you have access to windows computer you can order the > disc 26124 From: Manu Wadhwani Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greatings from Vientiane Dear Peter, Let me introduce myself, my name is Manu Wadhwani and I live in Vientiane. I read the posts regularly and judging by the content, admire the commitment and deep understanding of the members here. Therefore it will be pleasure meeting you. Since I have no other way of contacting you, please call me at 451157 (office) or at 216214 (res). I will be more than happy to show you around. I only hope you get this message while still in Vientiane. Warmest regards, Manu 26125 From: peterdac4298 Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greatings from Vientiane Hi Manu Will reply to your personal email address, as is consistant with dsg policy. Many thanks Peter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Manu Wadhwani" wrote: > Dear Peter, > > Let me introduce myself, my name is Manu Wadhwani and I live in Vientiane. > I read the posts regularly and judging by the content, admire the commitment > and deep understanding of the members here. Therefore it will be pleasure > meeting you. > > Since I have no other way of contacting you, please call me at 451157 > (office) or at 216214 (res). I will be more than happy to show you around. > I only hope you get this message while still in Vientiane. > > Warmest regards, > Manu 26126 From: monomuni Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:30pm Subject: Views (Ditthi) Friends; The mistaken & misguiding Views: All views are wrong views. All views are based on a biased opinion. All views are rooted in preferred attractions. All views are construing an imaginary self. All views are so based on a false EGO theory. All views are thereby individuality views. All views are assuming a fixed finiteness. All views are setting up an unreal boundary. All views are based on mental clinging. All views are thereby mental chains. All views are not direct knowledge. Source: The path of Discimination II (699) Patisambhidamagga I [158-9] Essay on Views by Sariputta. BUDDHA-HOOD: Buddha-hood is like ash: Extinguished, Quenched, Cool, Still & Ultra-light !!! Bhikkhu Samahita http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Realising that this body is (as fragile) as a jar, establishing this mind (as firm) as a (fortified) city, he should attack Mara with the weapon of wisdom. He should guard his conquest and be without attachment. Random Dhammapada Verse 40 26127 From: monomuni Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:01pm Subject: Analytical Anarchism !!! Friends; Always Otherwise than the Appearance: There exist no final authority except direct Experience itself! Since it is Always otherwise than one imagine, construe or conceive it to be … Phenomena are Never as they appear! But they can be rightly perceived by means of the analytical insight of true understanding ... Phenomena appear to be constant, yet they are really not so! Phenomena appear to be pleasant, yet they are really not so! Phenomena appear to be beautiful, yet they are really not so! Phenomena appear as having either a core substance or an inherent identity, yet they do really not possess neither! This one have to come & see for oneself by means of repeated rational reflection. The effect of such penetration is diminished craving leading to reduced clinging, relinquishment & finally mental release. The taste of all of the oceanic Buddha-Dhamma is only one: That of Freedom ... !!! For the gladening of good people. Friendship is truly GREATEST The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Bhikkhu Samahita, SRI LANKA. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Monks, meditate! Do not be heedless, pursue not the pleasure of sense to sway your heart lest the passions will toss you about and you will suffer. Random Dhammapada Verse 371 26128 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greatings from Vientiane Hi Manu (& Peter, Sukin, Azita), --- Manu Wadhwani wrote: > Dear Peter, > > Let me introduce myself, my name is Manu Wadhwani and I live in > Vientiane. > I read the posts regularly and judging by the content, admire the > commitment > and deep understanding of the members here. Therefore it will be > pleasure > meeting you. .... Manu, good to hear from you again! Do write more often - even if it's just a kind comment or encouragement to others;-) Hope you guys meet for a Vientiane (Laos) DSG meeting! Pls let us know if it works out and any topics of discussion. I know others like Nina will be keen to hear. Sorry you won't be able to get to Bkk to meet us all this time - hopefully at the end of Jan when you may be able to meet Nina & RobK too. Metta, Sarah p.s Sukin - delighted to hear you'll also be joining the Myanmar trip..see you very soon. Azita, I think we attach such great importance to vedana and sanna....we'll chat more in Myanmar. ======= 26129 From: Sukin Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 3:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Larry, > Sukin: "So I think it is very important that the distinction is made, as > you have briefly discussed elsewhere, > that panna of the level of satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas > and not concepts as object." > > Hi Sukin, > > Why is this important? Ask panna! Lol. But seriously, I was thinking today how avijja asks a question (I am not referring to your question here.) and avijja gives the answer. And lobha attaches to the answer and there is clinging. I was thinking how so easily we are satisfied with answers, and the question and answer are both of the same process. So it seems that 'asking' must also be done with panna, only then will the answer have any positive effect.... Just rambling. Now to the question why it is so important that one makes the distinction between concept and reality. I compare the process to analyzing what the taste of 'sugar' might be based on the experience of sweetness from other foods. No matter how much we try to estimate the taste of sugar based on the experience of no matter how many other objects, 'doubt' will never be eliminated. And once sugar has been tasted, then there is no more doubt. In the same way, we may *think* anicca, dukkha and anatta with respect to no matter how many conceptual realities, doubt will always remain. In fact, I think I have heard that a person must understand the experience through all the doorways quite thoroughly. It is not possible to become enlightened only from say, knowing hearing, tasting, touching and not knowing anything about seeing for example. It seems that if we don't know 'seeing' as just an element, then doubt will continue to arise with regard to seeing. And this is probably why, a person born blind, can never become enlightened. And even in the above comparison with 'sugar', the confidence of 'taste' is based on sanna vipallasa and this is no condition for subduing doubt. In the case of direct experience of the tilakkhana how ever, the "sati" is very strong and firm in that the 'knowledge' acquired has a permanent effect. In attributing the tilakkhana to conceptual realities, one does not even know at that time, that 'visible object' is just an element. And this knowledge occurs well before namarupa parichedannana, and the knowledge of the tilakkhana comes even after this. So it is *impossible* to come to realize what the Buddha taught through concepts! And this being so, I think we should at least acknowledge the importance of making the distinction. Not only because 'pariyatti' is the basis for 'patipatti' and this for 'pativedha', but *not seeing the importance*, will condition the belief that the tilakkhana can be realized in non-existent concepts. And this may condition a corresponding wrong practice. But of course, *believing* in the Abhidhamma position is also no guarantee for right practice. A lot more is involved I think. Does this make any sense? Metta, Sukin. 26130 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:06am Subject: Tiika Vis. 21 Vis. text: 21. 12. In the second tetrad, the four kinds of knowledge classed as that concerned with meaning, etc., are called the "four discriminations". For this is said: 'Knowledge about meaning is the discrimination of meaning (attha-pa.tisambhidaa). Knowledge about law is the discrimination of law (dhamma-pa.tisambhidaa). Knowledge about enunciation of language dealing with meaning and law is the discrimination of language (nirutti-pa.tisambhidaa). Knowledge about kinds of knowledge is discrimination of perspicuity (pa.tibhaana-pa.tisambhidaa)' (Vbh. 293). 21. dutiyacatukke catasso pa.tisambhidaa naama atthaadiisu pabhedagataani cattaari~naa.naani. vutta~nheta.m -- ``atthe ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. dhamme~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. tatradhammaniruttaabhilaape ~naa.na.m niruttipa.tisambhidaa. ~naa.nesu ~naa.na.m pa.tibhaanapa.tisambhidaa''ti (vibha0 718). Tiika 21: words: pabheda (m); variety, classification, category sa²nkepa: abridgement abhilaapa: speech, utterance. pa.tibhaana: perspicuity, intelligence, promptitude sallakkha.na (n) discernment, consideration vivarati: analyse, explain vibhaavana (n); explanation vavattheti: analyse, define samattha: capable, skilful bheda (m): division bhindati: break, divide tibbisaya (tad+visaya): having that as object Tiika text: 21. ``atthaadiisu pabhedagataani ~naa.naanii''ti The words, the knowledges classified as that concerned with meaning and so on, refer to the following: sa"nkhepena vuttamattha.m paa.livaseneva vivaritu.m ``vutta~nheta''ntiaadi vutta.m. The words, ³For this is said, etc.² * were expressed in order to explain the meaning stated in brief by the text. tattha atthe~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaati Thus, understanding concerning meaning is discrimination of meaning. ya.m atthappabhedassa sallakkha.navibhaavanavavatthaanakara.nasamattha.m atthe pabhedagata.m~naa.na.m, aya.m atthapa.tisambhidaa naama. The knowledge classified as concerned with meaning that is capable of effecting the discernment, the explanation, the definition of the meaning category **, that is called discrimination of meaning. sesapadesupi eseva nayo. The same method applies for the remaining expressions. dhammappabhedassa hi sallakkha.navibhaavanavavatthaanakara.nasamattha.m dhamme pabhedagata.m ~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. The knowledge classified as concerned with dhamma that is capable of effecting the discernment, the explanation, the definition of the dhamma category, that is called discrimination of dhamma. niruttippabhedassa sallakkha.navibhaavanavavatthaanakara.nasamattha.m niruttaabhilaape pabhedagata.m ~naa.na.m niruttipa.tisambhidaa. The knowledge classified as concerned with enunciation of language, capable of effecting the discernment, the explanation, the definition of the language category, that is called discrimination of language. pa.tibhaanappabhedassa sallakkha.navibhaavanavavatthaanakara.nasamattha.m pa.tibhaane pabhedagata.m~naa.na.m pa.tibhaanapa.tisambhidaa. The knowledge classified as concerned with perspicuity, capable of effecting the discernment, the explanation, the definition of the perspicuity category, that is called discrimination of perspicuity. niruttipa.tibhaanappabhedaa tabbisayaana.m atthaadiina.m paccayuppannataadibhedehi bhinditvaa veditabbaa. The categories of language and perspicuity are to be known by means of meaning and so on, which have these as object, after having analysed them by the classifications of what is conditionally arisen ***. ***** English: The words, the knowledges classified as that concerned with meaning and so on, refer to the following: The words, ³For this is said, etc.² * were expressed in order to explain the meaning stated in brief by the text. Thus, understanding concerning meaning is discrimination of meaning. The knowledge classified as concerned with meaning that is capable of effecting the discernment, the explanation, the definition of the meaning category **, that is called discrimination of meaning. The same method applies for the remaining expressions. The knowledge classified as concerned with dhamma that is capable of effecting the discernment, the explanation, the definition of the dhamma category, that is called discrimination of dhamma. The knowledge classified as concerned with enunciation of language, capable of effecting the discernment, the explanation, the definition of the language category, that is called discrimination of language. The knowledge classified as concerned with perspicuity, capable of effecting the discernment, the explanation, the definition of the perspicuity category, that is called discrimination of perspicuity. The categories of language and perspicuity are to be known by means of meaning and so on, which have these as object, after having analysed them by the classifications of what is conditionally arisen ***. --------------- *For this is said: 'Knowledge about meaning is the discrimination of meaning¹, and so on for the other three categories. ** Further on it will be explained that there are five things falling under the category of meaning and five under the category of dhamma. *** What has arisen by conditions falls under the category of meaning. ****** Nina. 26131 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:06am Subject: FW: Co to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 17 B FW: Co to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 17 B tattha pa.tisallaanaati ekiibhaavato. As to the words, tattha pa.tisallaanaa, then, from solitude, this means, then, from being alone. ya.mki~nci raahulaati kasmaa? As to the words, ya.mki~nci raahulaa, whatever, Rahula (is internal, etc.), why is this said? bhagavaa aanaapaanassati.m pu.t.tho ruupakamma.t.thaana.m kathetiiti. When he asked the Blessed One about Mindfulness of Breathing, why did the Blessed One speak about the meditation subject of materiality? ruupe chandaraagappahaanattha.m. He spoke so that he (Rahula) would abandon his attachment to materiality. eva.m kirassa ahosi -- ``raahulassa attabhaava.m nissaaya chandaraago uppanno, It must have occurred to him thus: ³Since attachment has arisen in Rahula on account of his body, he.t.thaa cassa sa"nkhepena ruupakamma.t.thaana.m kathita.m, and the meditation subject on materiality was explained to him before in brief, idaanissaapi dvicattaaliisaaya aakaarehi attabhaava.m vibhajetvaa visa"nkharitvaa ta.mnissita.m chandaraaga.m I shall now also make him dissect the body in fortytwo ways and thus cause him to get rid of attachment that is dependent on it anuppattidhammata.m aapaadessaamii''ti. and to understand the truth of Dhamma.² atha aakaasadhaatu.m kasmaa vitthaaresiiti? Why did he then explain in detail the element of space? upaadaaruupadassanattha.m. In order to point out the derived material phenomena. he.t.thaa hi cattaari mahaabhuutaaneva kathitaani, na upaadaaruupa.m. Before he had spoken about the four great Elements, not about the derived physical phenomena *. tasmaa iminaa mukhena ta.m dassetu.m aakaasadhaatu.m vitthaaresi. Therefore, in order to point these out in that way, he explained in detail the element of space. apica ajjhattikena aakaasena paricchinnaruupampi paaka.ta.m hoti. He also made known the matter that is delimitated by the internal space **. ³aakaasena paricchinna.m ruupa.m yaati vibhuutata.m. He proceeds to clarify matter that is delimitated by space. tasseva.m aavibhaavattha.m, ta.m pakaasesi naayako. The Guide explained this so that it was clear to him in that way. ² ettha pana purimaasu taava catuusu dhaatuusu ya.m vattabba.m, ta.m mahaahatthipadopame vuttameva. But here what had to be said previously with regard to the four (great) elements, that was said in the ³Discourse on the great Elephant¹s Footprint². ****** English: As to the words, tattha pa.tisallaanaa, then, from solitude, this means, then, from being alone. As to the words, ya.mki~nci raahulaa, whatever, Rahula (is internal, etc.), why is this said? When he asked the Blessed One about Mindfulness of Breathing, why did the Blessed One speak about the meditation subject of materiality? He spoke so that he (Rahula) would abandon his attachment to materiality. It must have occurred to him thus: ³Since attachment has arisen in Rahula on account of his body, and the meditation subject on materiality was explained to him before in brief, I shall now also make him dissect the body in fortytwo ways and thus cause him to get rid of attachment that is dependent on it and to understand the truth of Dhamma.² Why did he then explain in detail the element of space? In order to point out the derived material phenomena. Before he had spoken about the four great Elements, not about the derived physical phenomena *. Therefore, in order to point these out in that way, he explained in detail the element of space. He also made known the matter that is delimitated by the internal space **. ³He proceeds to clarify matter that is delimitated by space. The Guide explained this so that it was clear to him in that way.² But here what had to be said previously with regard to the four (great) elements, that was said in the ³Discourse on the great Elephant¹s Footprint². ______ *The four great Elements (solidity, cohesion, heat and motion) are the principle material phenomena. All other material phenomena are derived materiality, they are dependent on the four great Elements. ** Material phenomena arise in groups or units and each unit is surrounded by infinitely tiny space so that the groups of material phenomena are delimited, clearly distinct. This is the internal space. **** 26132 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 22, 23 Hi Larry, op 11-10-2003 01:32 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "When anyone reviews that meaning, any knowledge of his, falling within > the category (pabheda) concerned with meaning, is the "discrimination of > meaning"." > Do we have a commentary on this "anyone"? It seems to contradict Vism. > XIV, 27 regarding trainers and non-trainers. N: The Pali has: for the person who considers that meaning, ta.m attha.m paccavekkhantassa. It does not say, everybody. L: Generally, here are a few speculative ideas on the 4 patisambhida: > > We might regard this as a description of the experience of an arahant > and the path of trainers. N: Yes, it is very high wisdom. We can only begin to have some notion of them intellectually, but that is all. L:As such, we could possibly divide it into > body, speech, and mind; "attha" and "dhamma" being the 'body' of that > experience, speech being highly evocative, and mind being transparent. N: I do not see it that way. You just quoted about the four truths. That makes it clearer. Meaning is the fruit of a cause and dhamma is cause. This is more fully explained in the next issues of the Tiika. Nina. 26133 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Co to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 17 B Nina Thanks for this. Another very illuminating explanation. This and your Vism tika series are much appreciated. I'm only sorry I don't have time to contribute more, but I always enjoy reading. Jon Hong Kong airport en route to Bangkok --- nina van gorkom wrote: > FW: Co to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 17 B > > tattha pa.tisallaanaati ekiibhaavato. > As to the words, tattha pa.tisallaanaa, then, from solitude, this > means, > then, from being alone. > > ya.mki~nci raahulaati kasmaa? > As to the words, ya.mki~nci raahulaa, whatever, Rahula (is > internal, etc.), > why is this said? > > bhagavaa aanaapaanassati.m pu.t.tho ruupakamma.t.thaana.m > kathetiiti. > When he asked the Blessed One about Mindfulness of Breathing, why > did the > Blessed One speak about the meditation subject of materiality? > > ruupe chandaraagappahaanattha.m. > He spoke so that he (Rahula) would abandon his attachment to > materiality. > > 26134 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:31pm Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Howard, A very short note from the airport thanks to Samsung computers: Thx for all your other comments. Just one follow-up for now: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Howard: > I have no problem with that definition, which goes as follows: > > > > náma: (lit. 'name'): 'mind', mentality. This term is generally used > as a > > collective name for the 4 mental groups (arúpino khandha), viz. > feeling > > (vedaná), perception (saññá), mental formations (sankhára) and > consciousness > > (viññána). Within the 4th link (náma-rúpa) in the formula of the > paticcasamuppáda > > (q.v.), Howard >I count thoughts/ideas/concepts as falling within the > sankharakkhandha. They are mental formations. Their alleged referents, > however, are not - they > are nothing at all. .... Can you give any further support for this, i.e thoughts/ideas/concepts being inc. in sankharakkhandha? Metta, Sarah =========== 26135 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Greatings from Vientiane - Lurkers take note! Peter Hello again from me, and thanks for dropping in. --- peterdac4298 wrote: > Hi Rob > The impact of the Dhamma on the rest of the world is an excellent > topic for > discussion in its own right. It is something that Bhikkhus are > encouraged > to reflect upon on a regular (ie daily) basis, and certainly > something that > the committed posters of dsg should do too. I wasn't quite sure what you meant by the impact of the Dhamma on the rest of the world. Would be interested to hear more. Is this something you are considering at Wat Pa? Jon 26136 From: Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 22, 23 Hi Nina, I'm having doubts about the exclusivity of patisambhida. In XIV 22 we have "the person who considers etc.", in XIV 24 (e) we have "Here a bhikkhu knows". This doesn't seem to be special knowledge or special people. It is what we have been studying all along about causes and effects. I wonder if we are misunderstanding XIV 27 (about trainers and nontrainers). Perhaps the "advanced" (aryan) quality has to do with the 'language' and 'comprehensive' discriminations. When is everyone going away? I don't want to start something we can't finish. Larry 26137 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Victor Wow! So many questions from such a short post! I'll have to be brief, since I don't have the texts with me now. --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon and all, > > Regarding your comment to the passage from > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html > > could you explain more about what you wanted to say with Bhikkhu > Bodhi's reading? Since you quoted the sutta without comment, I thought it might be useful to indicate how the sutta might be read. That is, it is not so much about the development of concentration as such (as a superficial reading might suggest), as about the development of insight. Any thoughts of your own on that? > Regarding your comment > > > To be 'right/samma', the concentration/samadhi must be kusala of > the level of either samatha (this would lead to 'the rapture and > pleasure > that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome > states' > mentioned in the text) or vipassana (leading to the 'something more > peaceful than that'). > > > how did you get that idea? Is that idea based your reading or > personal experience or personal understanding? My best reading of the passage you quoted (and the notes to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation) plus my general (intellectual) understanding of the texts as a whole. If you have a different idea, feel free to share. Also, where did you > get the idea that vipassana is what leads to 'something more > peaceful than that'? The 'peace' of insight and enlightenment is, I believe, regarded as a higher peace than the peace of jhana. > You also said that concentration developed for its own sake cannot > be kusala/right/samma concentration. > > I am not sure what your point is. Are you trying to define what > right concentration is? I was trying to say that, in my view, it would be a mistake to think that simply focussing on one of the 'meditation subjects' would be any kind of right concentration. Concentration can only be kusala if it is the concentration that arises with kusala citta. > I know for myself that the Buddha taught what right concentration > is, and that right concentration is necessary in realizing the > cessation of the dukkha. Agreed. But what is right concentration? Jon 26138 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:32pm Subject: nibbana Dear Group, A letter Htoo wrote that I think dsg will appreciate: Once I talked to a person off-line on the topic of Nibbana. I used the analogy mentioned by Swan about the turtle. Strangely, that person thought that ' There are many possible different ways to Nibbana. As the turtle reached the land, fish, sprawn, lobster, oyster, squibb and many other can reach the land.' This is totally wrong. Another thought unit of his is ' Why did the turtle come back to the water and meet the fish? I think he was thinking that Arahats come back to the old place and meet Puthujana and teach their findings about the land. Nibbana before defining it it an object of attention. It is an Arammana. It is an object. That is an object of Citta. Nama have the characteristic of bending towards objects. Nama can bend towards Nibbana. So called Nibbana is Nama Dhamma. But Nibbana cannot bend to any other Paramattha Dhamma. The above analogy is to show unreachablility or inaccessibility of Nibbana by Puthujana. Life is continuum of pieces of Paramattha Dhamma. When Nibbana is ready to be realized the Puthujana ascends up through six purification and at Guttarabhu he releases his Puthujanaship and at the very first Magga ( Sotapatti Magga ) he directly see Nibbana and he is no more Puthujana. As Puthujana never see Nibbana, he will not fully understand Nibbana and will not realize it. As he is bound to his environment he will not be liberated unless he tries delibrately with diligent effort. The way to Nibbana is one way. There is no other way. Whoever Sammasambuddhas or Pacchekabuddhas or Aggasavakas or Mahasavakas or Jhanalabhi Arahats or simple Arahats or anyone who enters Nibbana has to take that one-way tract to Nibbana. Nibbana is not a place. It is not related to time. It is devoid of Nama and Rupa. It is a state of complete peace. Peace in this mean in comparison with Samsara dwellers who are ever in shaking stirring up states. Analogy of extinguishment of fire also has this essence. Once the Samsara traveller has entered the stream ( got Sotapatti Magga ), he has tasted Nibbana and he may try to achieve an absolute peace that is to complete all stages of realization. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 26139 From: Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, One problem with reducing external objects to non-things (what you would call non-concepts, i.e. visible form, sound, smell etc.) is that these non-things are not really objects of appropration as me or mine. As such they are not upadanakkhandha. Nor are they kamma vipaka because they have no value. This seems to be a contradiction within the abhidhamma system. How do you explain it? Larry 26140 From: Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 3:40pm Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/15/03 7:34:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Howard > >I count thoughts/ideas/concepts as falling within the > >sankharakkhandha. They are mental formations. Their alleged referents, > >however, are not - they > >are nothing at all. > .... > Can you give any further support for this, i.e thoughts/ideas/concepts > being inc. in sankharakkhandha? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========================== Well, what, for example is sankappa? Is that not thought? And doesn't it fall under sankhara? For example, I have found the following at the web site http://www.enabling.org/ia/vipassana/Archive/N/Nyanatiloka/WOB/wob4nt07.htm ***************************************** Right Thought (Sammaa-sankappa) D. 22 What, now, is Right Thought? Thought free from lust (nekkhamma-sankappa). Thought free from ill-will (avyaapaada-sankappa). Thought free from cruelty (avihimsaa-sankappa). This is called Right Thought. Mundane And Supermundane Thought M. 117 Now, Right Thought, I tell you, is of two kinds: 1. Thought free from lust, from ill-will, and from cruelty-this is called `Mundane Right Thought' (lokiya sammaa-sankappa), which yields worldly fruits and brings good results. 2. But, whatsoever there is of thinking, considering, reasoning, thought, ratiocination, application-the mind being holy, being turned away from the world, and conjoined with the path, the holy path being pursued-these `verbal operations' of the mind (vacii-sankhaaraa) are called the `Supermundane Right Thought' (lokuttara-sammaa-sankappa), which is not of the world, but is supermundane, and conjoined with the path. Conjoined with Other Factors Now, in understanding wrong thought as wrong, and right thought as right, one practises Right Understanding (1st factor); and in making efforts to overcome evil thought and to arouse right thought, one practises Right Effort (6th factor); and in overcoming evil thought with attentive mind, and dwelling with attentive mind in possession of right thought, one practises Right Mindfulness (7th factor). Hence there are three things that accompany and follow upon Right Thought, namely: Right Understanding, Right Effort, and Right Mindfulness. ************************************************* There is also the following from Nyanatiloka's dictionary entry on vitakka (and some people equate vitakka with sankappa): *********************************************** > vitakka: 'thought', 'thought-conception', is one of the 'secondary' (not > constant) mental concomitants (s. Tab. II), and may be either karmically > wholesome, unwholesome or neutral. - "There are 3 karmically unwholesome (akusala) > thoughts: sensuous thought (káma-vitakka), hating thought (byápáda-v.), and > cruel thought (vihimsa-v.). There are 3 karmically wholesome (kusala) > thoughts: thought of renunciation (nekkhamma-v.), of hatelessness (avyápáda-v.), of > not harming (avihimsá-v.) " The latter three constitute 'right thought', the > 2nd link of the 8-fold Path (s. magga 2).On the 'Removal of Distracting > Thoughts' (vitakka-santhána), s. M. 20 (tr. in WHEEL 21). ********************************************* In any case, Sarah, are you saying there are no such things as thoughts? I certainly believe there are. And whatever they are, they fall under one of the five khandhas, for there are only the khandhas and nibbana, isn't that so? There is nothing else. If thoughts are not mental formations, I fail to see what in the world else they could be. They are not acts of consciousness (vi~n~nana) or feelings (vedana) or acts of recognition (sa~n~na), and they are neither rupas nor nibbana. Thus, they are mental formations (sankhara/sankhata). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26141 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Dear Victor, I am butting in case Jon has no more time, almost on his way. op 14-10-2003 19:31 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > To be 'right/samma', the concentration/samadhi must be kusala of the > level of either samatha (this would lead to 'the rapture and pleasure > that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states' > mentioned in the text) or vipassana (leading to the 'something more > peaceful than that'). > > > how did you get that idea? Is that idea based your reading or > personal experience or personal understanding? Also, where did you > get the idea that vipassana is what leads to 'something more > peaceful than that'? N: Vipassana leads to the greatest peace: the extinguishment of defilements. Also people who are inclined to jhana cannot forego the development of vipassana. By samatha defilements are temporarily subdued, and only through vipassana wrong view and all defilements can be completely eradicated. Nina. 26142 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paramattha dhammas Dear Larry, also Sukin is going away, so I butt in. op 15-10-2003 02:38 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Sukin: "So I think it is very important that the distinction is made, as > you have briefly discussed elsewhere, > that panna of the level of satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas > and not concepts as object." L: Why is this important? N: through satipatthana the three characteristics of paramattha dhammas, namely impermanence, dukkha and anatta are realized. Seeing is a paramattha dhamma. It is a long way to realize seeing as arising and falling away. First, as is often stated here, you have to know exactly what seeing is: a nama, different from visible object. An experience, it experiences what appears only through the eyes. Seeing is not thinking about what you see, and it is not a concept. It is a citta. Citta, cetasika (mental factors accompanying citta) and rupa are the paramattha dhammas appearing in our life, as Sukin also pointed out. Concepts such as person or thing are objects of thinking, but they are not citta, cetasika and rupa. They are not impermanent, that is arising and falling away in splitseconds; they are not dukkha and anatta. Does this answer your question? Nina. P.S. I just see Sukin answered and I like his post. I send this one all the same. 26143 From: Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paramattha dhammas Hi Nina, What if you are not sure whether the object you are contemplating is a concept or a reality? If it seems to be impermanent, what is the difference as far as your beliefs are concerned? Vism. XIV 24 (c) seems to say panna is concerned with persons (whatever things are born), carriages (produced), and governments (become): "`(c) 'Knowledge about whatever things are born, become, brought to birth, produced, completed, made manifest, is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the things from which those things were born, became, were brought to birth, produced, completed, made manifest, is the "discrimination of law"..." Larry 26144 From: Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:37pm Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Sarah In a message dated 10/15/2003 4:35:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Can you give any further support for this, i.e thoughts/ideas/concepts > being inc. in sankharakkhandha? > > Metta, > > Sarah > Hi Sarah I thought I'd take a shot at this through deductive logic; trying to incorporate Abhidhamma point of view... Anything that arises would be conditioned and that would include, in total, the 5 aggregates. Consciousness is bare awareness of an object and its dominant activity would not be thoughts/ideas/concept but merely awareness of them. Rupa is physicality and its dominant activity would not be thoughts/ideas/concept. Feeling is presumably too rudimentary to be the primary group associated with thoughts/ideas/concept. Perception is perhaps also too rudimentary but getting close to thoughts/ideas/concept and perhaps early stages of thoughts/ideas/concept development. (Maybe perceptions incorporate the full development?) That pretty much leaves mental formations as the aggregate most closely linkable to thoughts/ideas/concept. There is at least one Sutta where it is stated that feeling, perception, and cognizance are not things that can be separated, (but are merely separated for purposes of analysis.) (See below) If looked at in that light, thoughts/ideas/concept are aspects of all those aggregates. Also, abhidhamma indicates that feeling and perception are aspects of the mental formations aggregate anyway. In that case, its a 'no-brainer' that thoughts/ideas/concept are part of the mental formations aggregate. And since rupa and nama are interdependent, they all can be seen as supporting factors of thoughts/ideas/concept. Conceptual proliferation, thinking, imagination, thoughts, etc. are discussed often in the suttas. They are discussed as things that arise and cease based on conditions. I don't think a case that they don't exist is tenable. The only other possibility I could see is that one might consider them principally perceptions and falling primarily in that group. I could probably live with that. ;-) Sutta -- Majjhima # 43... "Feeling, perception, and consciousness, friend -- these states are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is impossible to separate each of these states from the others in order to describe the difference between them. For what one feels, that one perceives; and what one perceives, that one cognizes. That is why these states are conjoined and not disjoined, and it is impossible to separate each of these states form the others in order to describe the difference between them." (Above: 'cognizes' appears to include both the mental formations and consciousness aggregate.) I'm curious as to how you see it? TG 26145 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 0:01am Subject: Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Larry, > One problem with reducing external objects to non-things (what you would > call non-concepts, i.e. visible form, sound, smell etc.) is that these > non-things are not really objects of appropration as me or mine. As such > they are not upadanakkhandha. I think the problem is 'thinking'. It is true that we start with intellectual understanding, however this must be seen as just that. I believe that analyzing helps, but there is a big difference between 'thinking about' and even a glimpse of what it is like in actual experience. Satipatthana is not reductionism, though when we try to understand it intellectually, it might seem like it. It may be that ultimate realities are not objects of appropriation as me or myself (I am not sure though), but it seems that they are taken as 'mine' all the time. I think clinging can happen right from the experience through the five sense doors. That it is then conceptualized and clung upon is a different matter. Besides, when 'clinging' is understood, what do you think is the object if not a paramattha dhamma? > Nor are they kamma vipaka because they have no value. This seems to be a contradiction within the abhidhamma > system. How do you explain it? Ultimately *all* dhammas have no value ;-). I am following with interest Nina's postings on 'discrimination of meaning and law', though I have yet to read the latest installment. I think this may be relevant here. Seeing, hearing etc. being vipaka, may be the foundation of knowledge based on 'discrimination of meaning', while kamma may be 'discrimination of law'??! Nina, am I off track? Anyway, I don't think we have to go so far. Seeing, hearing, smelling is nama, whereas visible object, sound and smell is rupa, and this is all we need to know at this point. Without this knowledge I don't think there can be any discriminative wisdom of the level I think that is being talked about. Does this make any sense? Is there a contradiction now? Metta, Sukin. 26146 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 0:40am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Howard, Am I right in thinking you are on the verge of capitulating? :-) When you were asked to suggest which nama a concept (or a thought), could possibly be, you wrote: --------------- Well, what, for example is sankappa? Is that not thought? And doesn't it fall under sankhara? -------------- There is thought conception (sankappa, vitakka), and there is discursive thinking (vicara). These realities are different from the [illusory] thoughts they create. ------------- H: > In any case, Sarah, are you saying there are no such things as thoughts? I certainly believe there are. -------------- If Sarah wants to go gallivanting around the world, she can't complain when people answer her questions for her :-) There are only 52 cetasikas, none of which is a thought. If we are going to count thoughts, [starting with Robert's flying purple elephant], the number will be infinitely large. Perhaps that, in itself, doesn't mean they can't be real but, according to the Tipitaka, they aren't. (For what it's worth, it all seems perfectly logical to me.) --------------- H: > And whatever they are, they fall under one of the five khandhas, --------------- As I see it, the significance of the five khandhas is that they are *not* concepts. They are realities. Before the Buddha's teaching, no one knew exactly what was real and what was concept. Now they do: nibbana, citta, cetasika and rupa are real; concepts are . . . concepts. ----------------- H: > for there are only the khandhas and nibbana, isn't that so? There is nothing else. If thoughts are not mental formations, I fail to see what in the world else they could be. They are not acts of consciousness (vi~n~nana) or feelings (vedana) or acts of recognition (sa~n~na), and they are neither rupas nor nibbana. Thus, they are mental formations (sankhara/sankhata). ------------------ Or, they are concepts. (also known as illusions, mere conventional designations, a number of parts taken as a whole, pannatti.) Give up? :-) Kind regards, Ken H 26147 From: monomuni Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:08pm Subject: Great Understanding ! Friends: Great Understanding ! Bhikkhus & friends, these 4 states, when developed & made much of leads to the fruition of the state of Stream-Entry (sottapatti-phala)! What four ? Meeting, frequenting & waiting on good men. Hearing & reading the true idea of the Dhamma. Practice in accordance with this genuine Dhamma. Careful & rational Attention. These 4 states, when developed & made much of leads to the fruition of Once-Return (sakadagami-phala)! These 4 states, when developed & made much of leads to the fruition of Non-Return (sakadagami-phala)! These 4 states, when developed & made much of leads to the fruition of Arahat-ship (arahatta-phala)! Bhikkhus & friends, these 4 states, when initiated, developed, cultivated, refined & made much of leads To reaching, attaining & realizing Direct Understanding; To the state of Awakening of Understanding; To the state of Wealth of Understanding; To the state of Great Understanding; To the state of Open Understanding; To the state of Wide Understanding; To the state of Profound Understanding; To the state of Deep Understanding; To the state of Extensive Understanding; To the state of Universal Understanding; To the state of Unequalled Understanding; To the state of Quick Understanding; To the state of Instant Understanding; To the state of Acute Understanding; To the state of Light Understanding; To the state of Penetrative Understanding; To the state of Laughing Understanding ... What four ? Meeting, frequenting & waiting on good men. Hearing & reading the true idea of the Dhamma. Practice in accordance with this genuine Dhamma. Careful & rational Attention ... --oo0oo-- Source: The Path of Discrimination XXI The canonical Patisambhidamagga [ii 189] The Essay on Great Understanding. By Sariputta. See also: Samyutta Nikaya [V 410] Friendship is truly GREATEST The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Bhikkhu Samahita. SRI LANKA. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Maghava, the king of gods, attained such great supremacy over the gods through heedfulness. Heedfulness is always praised and heedlessness is always blamed. Random Dhammapada Verse 30 26148 From: monomuni Date: Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:44am Subject: The 36 conceits Friends; The 36 deep conceits of ‘I’ and ‘Mine’ leading to the Hells or an Animal Womb: Misapprehension by misinterpreting, misunderstanding by assuming, mistaking by construing the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body or mind to be ‘I’ or ‘Self’ or belonging to or be part of an ‘I’ or a ‘Me’ is a view associated with, bound up with & linked to the conceit: “I Am”. Misapprehension by misinterpreting, misunderstanding by assuming, mistaking by construing the form, sound, smell, taste, touch or thought to be ‘I’ or ‘Self’ or belonging to or be part of an ‘I’ or a ‘Me’ is a view associated with, bound up with & linked to the conceit: “I Am”. Misapprehension by misinterpreting, misunderstanding by assuming, mistaking by construing the visual, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling or mental consciousness to be ‘I’ or ‘Self’ or belonging to or be part of an ‘I’ or a ‘Self’ is a view associated with, bound up with & linked to the conceit: “I Am”. Any such view is a jungle of views, a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a clash of views, a fetter of views, a chain of views, a prison of views, a dart of views, a pitfall of views, a latent tendency to views, a knot of views, a burning fever of views, an endless speculation rooted in views, a clinging to views, a misinterpretation by views, a misapprehension by views, a misunderstanding by views, an obscuration by views, an obsession by views, a delight in views. Such wrong views as “I”, “Me”, “Ego”, “Self” & “Mine” are infectious and contaminates any individual who frequents, meets & cultivates persons of such deeply mistaken views. Such person of Wrong View, has only two destinations, at the breakup of the body: Hell or Animal Womb … !!! Why ? Because all of his or her mental actions, interests & wishes, all his or her verbal actions & all his or her bodily actions are planned, performed & completed according to that wrong & egoistic view, which has possessiveness, fear of loss, guarding, defending, painfull conflict & suffering as harmful effects. The result (vipaka) of such actions (kamma) is downfall & reapparance in the subhuman states exactly at the last conscious moment of this very life ... So Be Aware & Careful ! Avoiding all Evil, Doing only Good, & Purifying Mind. That is the Teaching Of all Buddhas. Dhammapada 183 Samahita : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ He who is purged of all stain, is well-established in morals and endowed with self-control and truthfulness, is indeed worthy of the yellow robe. Random Dhammapada Verse 10 26149 From: Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:10am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 10/16/03 3:42:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Am I right in thinking you are on the verge of > capitulating? :-) > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Simple answer: NO. More complicated answer: 1) I'm not in a battle, and 2) From the rest of your post, it is clear to me that you and I do not mean the same thing by 'thoughts'. ---------------------------------------------------- > > When you were asked to suggest which nama a concept (or a > thought), could possibly be, you wrote: > > --------------- > Well, what, for example is sankappa? Is that not thought? > And doesn't it fall under sankhara? > -------------- > > There is thought conception (sankappa, vitakka), and > there is discursive thinking (vicara). These realities > are different from the [illusory] thoughts they create. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: They are different from the illusory, nonexistent *references* intended by the thinking. The thoughts, themselves, are mental phenomena, discernible by vi~n~nana, but different from vi~n~nana. A thought is a mental event/occurrence/happening. When I speak of thoughts, I'm speaking, I suppose, of the various acts of vitakka and vicara that occur, and not their nonexistent referents. ------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------- > H: >In any case, Sarah, are you saying there are no such > things as thoughts? I certainly believe there are. > -------------- > > If Sarah wants to go gallivanting around the world, she > can't complain when people answer her questions for > her :-) > > There are only 52 cetasikas, none of which is a thought. > If we are going to count thoughts, [starting with > Robert's flying purple elephant], the number will be > infinitely large. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Robert's flying purple elephant doesn't exist. But the *thought* of it is an event that can and does arise in the mind. It is an event that just occurred after reading the phrase "Robert's flying purple elephant". The event was a kind of mental process composed of simpler events including such things as mental pictures, recollections of "Dumbo the elephant", thoughts of trunks and fanning ears etc. There are many simpler thoughts which, together, are summed up by the thought of "Robert's flying purple elephant". All of them are actual mental phenomena that arise and cease. The intended referent, the so called flying purple elephant, however, does not exist. I believe that you consider Robert's flying purple elephant to be a thought, and you then point out that this flying purple elephant isn't an actually, a paramattha dhamma. Indeed. It is not an actuality. It is not a thought, either! It is not ANYTHING!! There is no such thing. But the *thought* of it does arise in the mind and *is* an actuality. Or are you telling me that you do not ever have a thought of a flying purple elephant, or, for that matter of trees, cars, and people? Trees, cars, and people don't exist either except figuratively (i.e., in a manner of speaking), but the *thoughts* of trees, cars, and people do indeed occur, else we would never think about trees, cars, and paople, and we would never seem to experience them. The thoughts occur - it is the referents that do not actually occur. --------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps that, in itself, doesn't mean> > they can't be real but, according to the Tipitaka, they > aren't. (For what it's worth, it all seems perfectly > logical to me.) ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: First of all, I am under no obligation of accepting the standard inventory of cetasikas provided by the Abhidhamma, particularly because, as I recall, the Dhammasangani includes a hedge-clause allowing for other cetasikas than specifically enumerated. Moreover, it is not encumbant on one to identify the phenomena included in the sankharakkhandha with a subclass of the cetasikas. The whole citta-cetasika scheme never appears in the suttas. What is more, even buying that scheme, it may well be that vitakka and vicara are exactly what constitute thoughts, at least what *I* mean by thoughts. One more thing - a question: Are you another person who doesn't have thoughts?! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------- > > --------------- > H: >And whatever they are, they fall under one > of the five khandhas, > --------------- > > As I see it, the significance of the five khandhas is > that they are *not* concepts. They are realities. Before > the Buddha's teaching, no one knew exactly what was real > and what was concept. Now they do: nibbana, citta, > cetasika and rupa are real; concepts are . . . concepts. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: First of all, I will go with the five khandhas plus nibbana. I haven't adopted the Abhidhamma scheme provided by the monk-scholars; I go with what the Buddha directly taught. And the Buddha taught about thought! Please reread the material I quoted in my post in which it could hardly be clearer that the Buddha was talking about mental phenomena when he talked about thoughts. If thoughts can be affected by the three poisons (or not), if there can be right thoughts and wrong thoughts, if there can be sensuous thoughts and thoughts free from sensuality, then thoughts do occur - they are not nothing!! I believe that your thoughts are trapped, circumscribed, and limited by Abhidhammic categories to such an extent that you are missing what is right before you. Sorry, but that's how I see it. (No doubt you see me as being even more seriously in error! Fun, isn't it?? ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > H: >for there are only the khandhas and nibbana, isn't > that so? There is nothing else. If thoughts are not > mental formations, I fail to see what in the world else > they could be. They are not acts of consciousness > (vi~n~nana) or feelings (vedana) or acts of recognition > (sa~n~na), and they are neither rupas nor nibbana. Thus, > they are mental formations (sankhara/sankhata). > ------------------ > > Or, they are concepts. (also known as illusions, mere > conventional designations, a number of parts taken as a > whole, pannatti.) > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: All so called conventional objects are illusions and merely conventional designations so-to-speak. More precisely: There are no conventional objects. There are just thoughts of such and terminology that is used subject to the convention, purely fictitious, that these are existent things. When I speak of the tree in my garden, that speech is a convention, a shorthand for a complex of visual and mental phenomena, designating no actual thing "out there", but seeming to. The thought of "the tree in my garden" does, however, actually occur. If you think not, well, wait .. how could you think one way or the other, there being no thoughts at all! --------------------------------------------------------- > > Give up? :-) > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Not close! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H ============================= With (well thought out) metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26150 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 22, 23 Dear Larry, op 16-10-2003 01:42 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I'm having doubts about the exclusivity of patisambhida. In XIV 22 we > have "the person who considers etc.", in XIV 24 (e) we have "Here a > bhikkhu knows". N: This is a wellknown quotation from the sutta where the Buddha says: Here a bhikkhu knows sutta, geyya, etc. I also quoted this in my "Meanings of Dhamma." It is just an example of knowing pariyatti, the scriptures. Actually, one of the meanings of Dhamma is pariyatti. See my "Meanings of Dhamma". L: This doesn't seem to be special knowledge or special > people. It is what we have been studying all along about causes and > effects. I wonder if we are misunderstanding XIV 27 (about trainers and > nontrainers). N: about trainers and nontrainers, this shows that there are different degrees of the patisambhidas. The Buddha had the highest degree of them. For us: we just begin to grasp them intellectually, and even that is difficult. L: Perhaps the "advanced" (aryan) quality has to do with the > 'language' and 'comprehensive' discriminations. N: I think we have to take all four of them together. With the decline of the teachings there are no longer in this world arahats with the four patisambhidas. L: When is everyone going away? I don't want to start something we can't > finish. N: Already gone, but now Sarah, Jon, Christine are in Bgk first, and then on to Myanmar, I believe Monday. Until 27th. As for me, I have to go quietly, it is getting more and more difficult! Tiika 22, and then 23 is quite long. I do not think of having to finish something, but will do as usual. Only when I do not understand something, I leave dots. Also in The Dispeller I find passages I do not get. The transl in the Book of Analysis: dhamma is translated as origin and meaning (attha) is here: consequence. We have to keep in mind: dhamma: a cause; meaning: fruit or consequence of a cause. Then we shall understand the different items which fall under these. Nina. 26151 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Dear Htoo, Thank you for this post on nibbana. I find it very clear and useful. With appreciation, Nina. op 16-10-2003 02:32 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > Dear Group, > A letter Htoo wrote that I think dsg will appreciate: > Once I talked to a person off-line on the topic of Nibbana. I used > the analogy mentioned by Swan about the turtle. 26152 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paramattha dhammas Hi Larry, op 16-10-2003 07:14 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > What if you are not sure whether the object you are contemplating is a > concept or a reality? N: Then there is no panna but doubt. at such a moment we should realize doubt as only a nama, conditioned, not my doubt. Yes, this is very important, we should not overlook doubt. It is real. L:If it seems to be impermanent, what is the > difference as far as your beliefs are concerned? N: If there is panna no "seems to be". But, a long way to go! L: Vism. XIV 24 (c) seems to say panna is concerned with persons (whatever > things are born), carriages (produced), and governments (become): N: No, see the beginning:< This same meaning is shown in the Abhidhamma by the following analysis.> Not the word at the beginning of this para. Abhidhamma only deals with paramattha dhammas. L: "`(c) 'Knowledge about whatever things are born, become, brought to > birth, produced, completed, made manifest, is the "discrimination of > meaning". N: again: meaning attha: effect or result of a cause or condition. Now the pali has what is translated as : dhammaa: dhammas or realities. Makes it clearer. Do not be misled by the translation: things. L:Knowledge about the things from which those things were born, > became, were brought to birth, produced, completed, made manifest, is > the "discrimination of law"..." N: again: the cause or condition which produces or from which other dhammas are born etc. is dhamma (transl as law). It is difficult, but by repeating it now it helps and becomes clearer, don't you think? Nina. 26153 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Dear Sukin, op 16-10-2003 09:01 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > Seeing, hearing etc. being > vipaka, may be the foundation of knowledge based on 'discrimination > of meaning', while kamma may be 'discrimination of law'??! Nina, am > I off track? Seeing is vipaka, it is produced by a cause, thus, seeing falls into the category of attha, meaning or fruit, or outcome. Kamma is under the category of cause, hetu, thus, it falls under dhamma (transl as law). S: Anyway, I don't think we have to go so far. Seeing, hearing, > smelling is nama, whereas visible object, sound and smell is rupa, > and this is all we need to know at this point. Without this > knowledge I don't think there can be any discriminative wisdom of > the level I think that is being talked about. N: Very good, excellent reminder. We can only try to grasp part of these difficult texts, but we should not forget that what is first must come first. Nina. 26154 From: Anatta Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:35am Subject: The Ajahn Sumedho Project "Some of you might have the desire to become the Buddha of the age, Maitreya, radiating love throughout the world – but instead, I suggest just being an earthworm, letting go of the desire to radiate love throughout the world. Just be an earthworm who knows only two words – 'let go, let go, let go'." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AjahnSumedho 26155 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, It seems to me that we are talking about different questions. Let's go back to the original question that I asked: Why did the Buddha teach right concentration/samma samadhi? To that question, I answered: As a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, it leads to the cessation of dukkha. Now, to realize the cessation of dukkha right concentration alone is not sufficient. However, to realize the cessation of dukkha, right concentration, as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, is necessary. Specifically, as the Buddha taught, "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html I quoted that passage to illustrate that right concentration leads to the cessation of dukkha. However, to make it clear, I should have said that to realize the cessation of dukkha, right concentration is necessary. What is right concentration/samma samadhi? "And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html Regarding tranquillity/samatha and insight/vipassana, I think the following discouse illustrates their relation to clear knowing: Anguttara Nikaya II.30 Vijja-bhagiya Sutta A Share in Clear Knowing Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- "These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). "When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned. "When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned. "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-030.html Now, let's go back to the passage from MN14 Culadukkahkkhandha Sutta*: "Mahanama, there is still a state unabanddoned by you internally, owing to which at times states of greed, hate, and delusion invade your mind and remain; for were that state already abandoned by you internally you would not be living the home life, you would not be enjoying sensual pleasures. It is because that state is unabandoned by you internally that you are living the home life and enjoying sensual pleasures. "Even though a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, as long as he still does not attain to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, he may still be attracted to sensual pleasures. But when a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasure. Seeing clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them is insight. The state of calm through attaining to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that is tranquillity. Without this insight, it is impossible for one to give up sensual pleasures and the home life. However, this insight is not sufficient. Without tranquillity, one would still be attracted to sensual pleasure. Only with both insight and tranquillity can one give up sensual pleasures and not to be attracted to them. For those who are reserved about developing right concentration because of the fear to pleasure in connection with right concentration, I would quote the following: "Now, there is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html#jhana Have a good time. Peace, Victor * Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi, trans., _The Middle Length Discourses fo the Buddha: a new translation of the Majjhima Nikaya_, p. 186-7. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > Wow! So many questions from such a short post! I'll have to be [snip] 26156 From: Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paramattha dhammas Hi Nina, What paramattha dhamma is born? Death, foulness, and the breath are always contemplated as impermanent, and therefore realities, never as mere concepts. There is a mix, even in the abhidhamma, of paramattha dhammas and what you would call concepts. Larry 26157 From: Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Sukin: "I think the problem is 'thinking'. It is true that we start with intellectual understanding, however this must be seen as just that. I believe that analyzing helps, but there is a big difference between 'thinking about' and even a glimpse of what it is like in actual experience. Satipatthana is not reductionism, though when we try to understand it intellectually, it might seem like it." Hi Sukin, This I agree with. Satipatthana *can* be analytical but analysis breeds clinging to that analysis for most people. The best satipatthana is just looking at what arises without comment. Larry 26158 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:07pm Subject: 31 Planes (long message) for comments Hi All, Worlds, Planes and Spheres ========================== Buddhist cosmology divides the universe into three types of worlds, also called planes (buhmi) of existence: 1. Sensuous Worlds (kama-loka): Generally, beings in these worlds have all five physical senses. The sensuous worlds are further split into the four Woeful Planes (apayabuhmi) and Happy Destinations (sugati). Human existence is a happy destination. 2. Fine-material Worlds (rupa-loka): Generally, beings in these worlds have only the "fine" physical senses of sight and hearing; they do not have the "coarse" senses of smelling, taste or touch. 3. Immaterial Worlds (arupa-loka): Beings in these worlds have only mind, they have no physical senses. Mental states (citta) are divided into four spheres (avacara); sense- sphere (kamavacara), fine-material sphere (rupavacara), immaterial sphere (arupavacara) and supramundane (lokuttara). Beings in the sensuous worlds (kama-loka) tend to have mental states belonging to the sense sphere (kamavacara) because they are caught up in their senses. However, under special circumstances, it is possible for beings in the sense worlds to have thoughts belonging to the fine-material sphere (rupavacara), immaterial sphere (arupavacara) and supramundane (lokuttara) mental states. Similarly, beings in the fine-material worlds (rupa-loka) tend to have mental states belonging to the fine-material sphere (rupavacara) and beings in the immaterial worlds (arupa-loka) tend to have mental states belonging to the immaterial sphere (arupavacara). Fine-material sphere mental states (rupavacara citta) are associated with high levels of concentration (jhana) focusing on a physical object. Immaterial sphere mental states (arupavacara citta) are associated with jhana using a concept as an object. Supramundane (lokuttara) mental states are associated with the Noble Ones (ariyas); stream-enterers (sotapanna), once-returners (sakadagami), non-returners (anagami) and liberated ones (Arahant). The word lokuttara is derived from loka (world) and uttara (beyond). Destruction of the Worlds ========================= All things are impermanent, including worlds. Worlds may be destroyed by fire, water or wind: - When they are destroyed by fire, all of the worlds up to the three first-jhana planes are burnt out. - After being destroyed seven times consecutively by fire, the worlds will be destroyed by water on the eighth time when all of the worlds up to the three second-jhana planes will be destroyed. - After being destroyed in regular cycles seven times by fire and one time by water, the world will be destroyed by wind on the 64th time when all the world up to the three third-jhana planes will be destroyed. Duration of Lifespan in a World =============================== There are four modes of birth (see MN12): - Moisture born – smaller animals - Egg born – certain animals - Womb born – animals, peta, asura, human, earth born deva - Spontaneous birth – all beings (humans experience spontaneous birth only at the beginning of a world) The amount of time that a being spends in the four woeful planes or the duration of a human lifetime depends upon: - The strength of the productive kamma that caused the being to be reborn in that world - The influence of both supportive kamma and obstructive kamma on the productive kamma that caused the being to be reborn in that world - The arising of a destructive kamma that supplants the productive kamma that caused the being to be reborn in that world For example, Devadatta had favourable productive kamma that allowed him to be born as the cousin of the Buddha. The supportive kamma of becoming a monk would have strengthened his productive kamma while the obstructive kamma of plotting against the Buddha would have weakened his productive kamma. The destructive kamma of causing a split in the Sangha caused Devadatta to be reborn in hell. The lifetime of other beings (those in worlds above the human realm) is fixed. The lifetime in the world immediately above the human realm (Catumaharajika Heaven) is nine million years and the lifetime of the realm immediately above this realm is 36 million years. Lifetimes increase as we move up through the sensuous worlds; beings in the highest sensuous world have a lifetime of more than nine billion human years. Lifetimes of beings in the fine-material worlds and the immaterial worlds are so long that it does not make sense to express them in terms of human years, but in terms of eons. In the Suttas, the Buddha defined an "eon" as longer than the time it would take to wear away a mountain of solid granite that was seven miles tall if one were to stroke it with a silk cloth once every hundred human years. In the heavenly realms, time flows at a different rate than in the human realm. For example, in the world immediately above the human realm (Catumaharajika Heaven), one celestial day is equivalent to fifty human years. In Tavatimsa Heaven, the world immediately above Catumaharajika Heaven, one celestial day is equivalent to one hundred human years. During the seventh rainy retreat (vassa) after His enlightenment, the Buddha went to Tavatimsa Heaven to teach the Abhidhamma to an assembly of Gods. This teaching took three months of human time but was equivalent to only 3.6 minutes of time in Tavatimsa Heaven. When the senses are not operating (no sense door citta process) and there are no thoughts arising in the mind (no mind door citta process), a series of life-continuum (bhavanga) cittas arise and fall away. These bhavanga cittas are the same from the moment of birth to the moment of death. In fact, the very first citta (patisandhi citta) and the very last citta (cuti citta) are both bhavanga cittas. Only certain cittas can play the role of bhavanga cittas: - Citta 19 – unwholesome resultant (akusala vipaka) with no roots (does not include non-greed, does not include non-hatred and does not include non-delusion): plays the role of bhavanga citta for beings in the four woeful planes. These beings cannot achieve a jhana state, they cannot become sotapanna and they will always be reborn in the sensuous worlds. - Citta 27 – wholesome resultant (kusala vipaka) with no roots (does not include non-greed, does not include non-hatred and does not include non-delusion): plays the role of bhavanga citta for humans born blind, deaf, dumb, etc. and certain earth-bound Gods from Catumaharajika Heaven. These beings cannot achieve a jhana state, they cannot become sotapanna and they will always be reborn in the sensuous worlds. - Cittas 41, 42, 45, 46 – beautiful resultant (mahavipaka) with two roots (includes non-greed and non-hatred, does not include non- delusion): plays the role of bhavanga citta for certain beings in happy destinations (humans and Gods in the sense-sphere). These beings cannot achieve a jhana state, they cannot become sotapanna and they will always be reborn in the sensuous worlds. - Cittas 39, 40, 43, 44 – beautiful resultant (mahavipaka) with three roots (includes non-greed, non-hatred and non-delusion): plays the role of bhavanga citta for certain beings in happy destinations (humans and Gods in the sense-sphere). These beings are able to achieve a jhana state and they are able to become sotapanna. If they are worldlings (not yet sotapanna), they can be reborn into any world except the pure abodes. If they are a Noble One (sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami or Arahant), they can be reborn into any world except the four woeful planes or the Asatta satta realm. - Cittas 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 74, 75, 76, 77 – fine-material sphere resultant (rupavacara vipaka) and immaterial sphere resultant (arupavacara vipaka) with three roots: plays role of bhavanga citta for beings in fine-material worlds and immaterial worlds. Woeful Planes (Apayabuhmi) ========================== There are four woeful planes: - Hell (Niraya), the worst possible plane - Animal (Tiracchani Yoni) - Hungry Ghost (Peta) - Demon / Titan (Asura) After their kamma has expired, beings from the four woeful planes are reborn into one of the sensuous worlds (Kama-loka); one of the four woeful planes (again) or one of the Happy Destinations. Noble Ones (sotapanna, etc.) are never born into the woeful planes. Rebirth into one of the four woeful planes is the kammic result of one of the ten unwholesome actions: 1. Killing: Constituent factors are A living being / consciousness that there is a living being / intention of killing / effort of killing / consequent death (Note: Large animals more serious than small animals, humans more serious than animals. Virtuous being more serious than non-virtuous being.) 2. Stealing: Constituent factors are Another's property / awareness that it is so / thieving mind / effort / consequent removal (Note: Higher value objects more serious than smaller value objects. Stealing from a virtuous being more serious than stealing from a non- virtuous being.) 3. Sexual Misbehaviour: Constituent factors are the mind to enjoy the forbidden object / effort to enjoy / devices to obtain / possession (Note: Married women and women under guardianship are forbidden. Seriousness of the sin increases with the virtue of the woman (keeping precepts). 4. Lying: Constituent factors are an untrue thing / intention to deceive / corresponding effort / communication of the matter to others (Note: Seriousness of the sin depends on the amount of welfare destroyed; lying to protect oneself is less serious than lying to get another into trouble) 5. Slandering: Constituent factors are other persons to be divided / the purpose, "they will be separated" or the desire to endear oneself to another / corresponding effort / communication (Note: Seriousness of the sin depends on the virtue of the person being slandered) 6. Idle Talk: Constituent factors are inclination towards useless talk / narration of such themes (Note: seriousness of the sin depends on the frequency with which it is practiced.) 7. Rude Speech: Constituent factors are another to be abused / angry thought / abuse (Note: Seriousness of the sin depends on the virtue of the person to whom the speech is directed) 8. Covetousness: Constituent factors are another's property / bending over of oneself (Note: High value objects more serious than small value objects. Coveting from a virtuous being more serious than coveting from a non-virtuous being.) 9. Ill Will: Constituent factors are another being / thought of doing harm (Note: Seriousness of the sin depends on the virtue of the person to whom the ill will is directed) 10. Wrong View: Constituent factors are perversion of the manner in which an object should be taken / its manifestation according to the contrary view held of it (Note: Seriousness of the sin depends on the frequency with which it is practiced; temporary or permanent). Hell (Niraya) ============= Being reborn in Hell is a natural result from previous actions; bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct, reviling noble ones, wrong views and actions under the influence of wrong views. Hell beings have no happy moments; they suffer the painful results of their unwholesome kamma throughout their lives in that realm. There are eight great hells of increasing intensity of torment: 1. Satjiva ("reviver"): This is the least severe type of hell. The guardians of this hell chop and cut the hell beings with glowing weapons. As long as their evil deeds remain unexhausted, the hell beings regain their lives after the punishment is over. 2. Kalasutta ("black thread"): Hell beings are placed on a floor of heated iron, marked with a black thread and made red hot. The guardians of this hell then plane the hell beings with adzes along the markings. 3. Sanghata ("crushing"): Hell beings are constantly being crushed by huge fiery rocks coming from all four directions. 4. Roruva: Hell beings have noxious gases blown into their bodies. 5. Maha Roruva: Hell beings have flames blown into their bodies. 6. Tapana ("burner"): Hell beings are pierced by red-hot stakes and remain motionless as long as the results of their evil deeds last. 7. Maha Tapana ("great burner"): The guardians of this hell force the hell beings to climb up a burning iron mountain. Strong winds force the hell beings to fall from the mountain and be impaled on the red-hot stakes below. 8. Avici ("without intermission"): This is the most terrible type of hell. There is no space between the hell beings and the flames. Those who have committed the five heinous acts (patricide, matricide, killing an Arahant, wounding a Buddha or causing a schism in the Sangha) are destined for Avici. Each of the eight great hells is square with a door on each side. Each door from the great hell leads to five minor hells (for a total of 168): - Gutha (excrement) hell - Kukkula (ember) hell - Simpalivana (silk-cotton tree) hell - Asipattavana (sword-leafed forest) hell - Vettarani (river of caustic water) hell Each of the 32 doors leading from a great hell to the minor hells is guarded by a Yamadeva. The duty of the Yamadeva is to consider the case of each hell being and direct the guardians of the hell (Niraya- pala) to inflict the punishment. Yamadeva and Niraya-pala are from Catumaharajika Heaven; these beings sometimes enjoy the fruitions of their meritorious kamma in heaven and sometimes suffer the results of their evil deeds in hell. On very rare occasions, one of the doors on the four sides of the great hell will open and a few hell beings will be allowed to pass into the minor hells. Only from a minor hell can a being with good past kamma experience rebirth. Animal (Tiracchani Yoni) ======================== In SN XLII.3, the Buddha is asked if a brave warrior can expect rebirth in heaven. The Buddha explained that if a warrior's mind was filled with hate at the time of death, then rebirth would be in hell. If the warrior's mind were filled with wrong view at time of death, then rebirth could be in hell or in the animal realm. In many other Suttas, the Buddha stressed that wrong view resulted in rebirth in hell or as an animal. In MN 57, the Buddha explained that humans who behave as animals are destined for rebirth in the animal realm. Life as an animal is not pleasant as they are exposed to the elements. Animals live most of their lives in fear and craving food. Because of past actions, some animals suffer more and some animals suffer less. In many cases, humans are reborn as animals with a natural affinity for that which they craved as humans. For example, the Elder Tissa was reborn as a flea in his old robe and the Brahman Todeyya's was reborn as a dog in his previous household. Hungry Ghost (Peta) =================== These beings are tormented by intense hunger, thirst and other afflictions to which they can find relief. The petas have no world of their own; they live in the same world as humans, in forests, bogs, cemeteries, etc.. They remain invisible to humans except when they choose to make themselves visible or are perceived by humans who have developed the "divine eye" through meditation. There are four kinds of Peta: 1. Paradattupajivika-peta: This sort of Peta lives on the dakkhina (sacrificial gifts) of others. Buddhism encourages dakkhina or merit- making by offering food, clothing, shelter, etc., to virtuous persons such as a Bhikkhu and then dedicating the merit acquired to deceased relatives. If the deceased relatives are this type of Peta, they will appreciate the dakkhina dedicated to them and they will be reborn in a better world. Only the Peta of this sort are able to enjoy the outcome of dakkhina dedicated by their relatives. Other types of Petas are not affected by such a dedication. The dakkhina will become fruitful to the Peta only when three conditions are met: - The dakkhina or sacrifice is given to a virtuous person - The performer of the dakkhina dedicates the merit to his deceased relative - His deceased relative has been born as a Paradattupajivika-peta, the Peta knows and appreciates the dakkhina dedicated to him If any of these three conditions is lacking, the deceased relative will not be able to enjoy the outcome of the dakkhina. Nevertheless, the performer of the dakkhina will still receive the good result of his meritorious action. 2. Khuppipasika-peta: This sort of Peta suffers from hunger and thirst and will suffer as a Peta as long as his evil kamma lasts. 3. Nijjhamatanhika-peta: This Peta's suffering is caused by his own craving (tanha). Fire burns in his mouth as long as his evil kamma lasts. 4. Kalakancika-peta: This sort of Peta has a very tall body that appears to be like a dry leaf with only skin covering the skeleton. His eyes protrude like those of the crab and his mouth is extremely small. He suffers from hunger and thirst like other types of Peta. Demon / Titan (Asura) ===================== The term "asura" is applied to three types of beings: - A group of Devas from Tavatimsa Heaven led by Vepacitti - Another name for the Kalakancika-peta already described - Titan residents of the Lokantarika-niraya realm The Lokantarika-niraya realm is situated between the human world, the hell world and the heaven world. The Lokantarika-niraya realm is a dark sea of acid water surrounded by rocky mountains; no light can reach this place. The Asuras hang themselves on cliffs like bats. They are tortured by hunger and thirst as there is no food for them. While moving along the cliff they sometimes come across each other. Thinking that they have come across food, they jump upon each other and start fighting. As soon as they start fighting, they let loose their grip on the cliff and as a result they fall into the sea below and their bodies melt away just like salt melting away in water. Happy Destinations (Sugati) =========================== Generosity and abstinence from the ten unwholesome actions lead to rebirth in a happy destination. The bases for wholesome actions are: 1. Dana – giving charity or generosity 2. Sila – morality; observing precepts 3. Bhavana – meditation, both tranquility and insight 4. Appacayana – reverence to elders and holy persons 5. Veyavacca – service in wholesome deeds 6. Pattidana – transference of merit 7. Pattanumodana – rejoicing in others' merit 8. Dhamma-savana – listening to the Doctrine 9. Dhamma-desana – expounding the Doctrine 10. Ditthijjukamma – straightening one's right view Human Plane of Existence ======================== The Pali word manussa (human) literally means those who have sharp or developed minds. As the human mind is very sharp, this makes man much more capable of weighty moral and immoral action than any other class of being. The human being is capable of development of up to Buddhahood and also of serious crimes such as killing of one's parents. The human realm is a mixture of pain and pleasure, suffering and happiness. The main reason that the realm of human beings is regarded as a happy destination (sugati) is that human birth is the result of meritorious kamma. Although the human world is the lowest of all of the happy realms of existence, it possesses significant characteristics which make it the most important ream of existence: - It is the realm situated between the Woeful Planes (Apayabuhmi) and the higher realms of happiness or Devaloka. In this sense, it may be seen as the "centre" of all realms. - It is the only realm where the life of a recluse, an ethical life that leads directly to the realization of the ultimate truth, is possible. - It is where the fulfillment of the Ten Perfection (Dasa-parami) of the Buddha-to-be (Bodhisatta) is made possible. - It is the only realm where the Bodhisatta attains Buddhahood and preaches the ultimate truth to the world. Charity (dana) and virtue (sila) are the determining factors in bringing about rebirth in the realm of human beings: - One who only on a small scale performs meritorious action founded on charity (dana), only on a small scale performs meritorious action founded on virtue (sila) and does not perform meritorious action founded on mind-development (bhavana) is reborn among men of ill luck. - One who performs meritorious action founded on charity to a medium degree, performs meritorious action founded on virtue to a medium degree and does not perform meritorious action founded on mind- development is reborn among men of good luck. Being born as a human is a rare event and the Buddha encouraged us to capitalize on this extraordinary opportunity. The four woeful planes are packed with beings while the realms above the human realm are sparsely populated. There is a Buddhist legend of the "age of materiality" where the population of the world increases dramatically because many beings are reborn from the four woeful planes into the human realm. Because these beings have spent so much time in the woeful planes, they have accumulated some bad habits; they are quarrelsome, rebellious, selfish and greedy. Heaven of the Four Great Kings (Catumaharajika) =============================================== This heaven has four divisions, each ruled over by its own guardian deity and inhabited by a different class of demiGods: - East – Dhatarattha rules over gandhabbas (celestial musicians) - South – Virulhaka rules over kumbhandas (gnomic caretakers of forests, mountains and hidden treasures) - West – Virupakkha rules over nagas (dragon-like creatures) - North – Vessavana rules over yakkhas (spirits) Distinctions are made among the three types of Gods of the Catumaharajika heaven according to the nature of their residences: - Bhummattha-deva (Gods living on the ground): reside on mountains, in pagodas, in public houses like temples, etc. They do not particularly have palaces (vimanas) of their own. The lifespan of these beings is of indefinite length. - Rukkhattha-deva (Gods living in trees): some have palaces of their own on the tops of trees and others have no palaces but reside in the trees. Since their residences are in connection with trees, when those trees are chopped down they have to shift to other unoccupied ones. The lifespan of these beings is of indefinite length. - Akasattha-deva (Gods living in the sky): they have vimanas of their own. The magnificence of their palaces varies depending on the karmic results of the owners. The lifespan of these beings is of fixed length. One day and night in this realm is equivalent to 50 human years. Thirty such days and nights make up a month, twelve such months make up a year and beings of this realm live for 500 of these years (9 million human years). Heaven of the 33 Gods (Tavatimsa) ================================= According to legend, there was a group of thirty-three men who collectively dedicated their efforts to the happiness and well-being of other people. They built and repaired roads, dug wells and ponds, built rest houses at cross-roads, etc. They passed their whole life with such wholesome actions and after death they were reborn in this realm. The leader of the group (Sakka or Indra) became the ruler of this heaven. His thirty-two friends were reborn as high ranking Gods. Since the thirty-three friends were born in this realm, it is called Tavatimsa or the heaven of the Thirty-Three Gods. Gods of the higher heavens are invisible to the Gods of the lower ones but not vice versa. This is because the bodies of the Gods of the higher realms are more subtle than those of the Gods in the lower realms. The Gods of the higher heavens are visible to the Gods of the lower realms only when they want themselves to be seen by transforming their subtle bodies into grosser bodies. Gods cannot travel to realms higher than their own but they can go to a realm that is lower than their own at will. These two general characteristics, i.e. the invisibility of the higher Gods to the lower Gods and the incapability of the lower Gods to travel to the higher realms, are common to all the heavens except the Catumaharajika and the Tavatimsa heaven which are closely related. The Gods of the Catumaharajika heaven can go to Tavatimsa heaven, even though Tavatimsa is a higher realm. The Four Great Kings of Catumaharajika are among the God-retinue of Sakka. The Buddha taught the Abhidhamma in Tavatimsa Heaven in gratitude to his mother (who had died seven days after giving birth to the Buddha and then was reborn in Tusita Heaven). The Buddha chose Tavatimsa to teach the Abhidhamma because Tavatimsa is accessible to the Gods of all realms; lower as well as higher heavens. The Buddha wanted his sermon to benefit not only his mother, but also Gods of other realms who were interested in his teachings. If he chose to preach to his mother in Tusita, only the Gods of the same realm and of the higher heavens could attend his sermon but not the Gods of lower realms since Tusita is inaccessible to them. One day and night in this realm is equivalent to 100 human years. Thirty such days and nights make up a month, twelve such months make up a year and beings of this realm live for 1000 of these years (36 million human years). The three months of human time that the Buddha spent teaching Abhidhamma was equivalent to 3.6 minutes of time in Tavatimsa Heaven. Heaven of the Yama Gods (Yama) ============================== This realm is the abode of the Gods whose lives are without hardship. There is very little description of this realm in the texts, other than it is the realm above Tavatimsa Heaven. One day and night in this realm is equivalent to 200 human years. Thirty such days and nights make up a month, twelve such months make up a year and beings of this realm live for 2000 of these years (144 million human years). Heaven of the Contented Gods (Tusita) ===================================== Every Bodhisatta is born here before the human birth in which he attains Buddhahood. From this realm, the Bodhisatta is reborn as a human and becomes enlightened. One day and night in this realm is equivalent to 400 human years. Thirty such days and nights make up a month, twelve such months make up a year and beings of this realm live for 4000 of these years (576 million human years). Gods Delighting in Creation (Nimmanarati) ========================================= The Gods of this realm enjoy the objects of the senses that they themselves create. In the lower heavens, the objects of sensuous enjoyment exist by their own nature. In Nimmanarati heaven, the beings of the realm create for themselves the objects of sense and enjoy them as they like. The Nimmanarati Gods can enjoy the pleasures of life at will. One day and night in this realm is equivalent to 800 human years. Thirty such days and nights make up a month, twelve such months make up a year and beings of this realm live for 8000 of these years (equivalent to 2304 million human years). Gods Wielding Power over the Creation of Others (Paranimmitavasavatti) ====================== Unlike the gods of Nimmanarati heaven, the Paranimmitavasavatti gods themselves have nothing to do with the creation of the objects for sensuous enjoyment. Their duty is only to enjoy such ready-made objects of others' creations. It is said that their God-attendants who realize their desires do such services for them. Mara, the personification of delusion and desire lives in this realm. He has no faith in the Buddha and Buddhism. He tried many times to create obstacles for the Buddha, but he always met with failure. His power, however, surupasses that of the gods in the lower heavens. One day and night in this realm is equivalent to 1600 human years. Thirty such days and nights make up a month, twelve such months make up a year and beings of this realm live for 16000 of these years (9216 million human years). The Lower Nine Fine-Material Worlds (rupa-loka) =============================================== These are the destination of those who have developed, during their life, the first, second or third fine-material jhana and at the time of death, still have potential access to that jhana. One who develops the jhana and then loses access to it due to negligence or obsession with destructive states will not be reborn here. Beings born into these realms tend to remain in the jhana state. These beings do not have any desire to enjoy sense pleasures and do not have the faculty of smell, taste or touch. These beings are able to see and hear as they desire to witness the appearance of Buddhas and Arahants and listen to them preach. In these planes (and the planes above), all Gods are male. When a worldling reborn into these planes dies, they are reborn in another plane, not including the woeful states or the pure abodes. When a Noble One reborn into these planes dies, they are reborn in the same plane or higher (except the Asatta satta realm). Great Brahmas (Maha Brahma), Ministers of Brahma (Brahma-purohita) and Retinue of Brahma (Brahma-parisajja) ======================================== Those who have mastered the first fine-material jhana are reborn in realm of the Great Brahmas for one eon. Those who have developed the first fine-material jhana to a medium degree are reborn in the realm of Ministers of Brahma for half an eon. Those who have developed the first fine-material jhana to a minor degree are reborn in the realm of Retinue of Brahma for a third of an eon. After gaining enlightenment, the Buddha's first inclination was to remain silent. Sensing this, Sahampati from the Great Brahma realm appeared before the Buddha and implored Him to teach the Dhamma, "… as there are beings with little dust in their eyes who will understand the Dhamma". In the Great Brahma realm, there is a deity who believes that he is the all-powerful, all-seeing creator of the universe. In the Kevatta Sutta (DN11), a monk in search of the answer to a philosophical question approaches this deity. The deity takes the monk aside and scolds him, "The Gods in my retinue believe that there is nothing that I do not know. That is why I could not tell you in their presence that I did not know the answer to your question. You have acted wrongly in bypassing the Buddha. Go directly to the Buddha for your answer." Gods of Streaming Radiance (Abhassara Deva), Gods of Unbounded Radiance (Appamanabha Deva) and Gods of Limited Radiance (Parittabha Deva) ==================================================================== The beings from these planes, the radiant Gods, are usually referred to as the representatives of supreme love (piti and metta). Those who have mastered the second fine-material jhana are reborn in realm of the Gods of Streaming Radiance for eight eons. Those who have developed this jhana to a moderate degree are reborn in the realm of Gods of Unbounded Radiance for four eons. Those who have developed this jhana to a minor degree are reborn in the realm of Gods of Limited Radiance for two eons. The numbering of jhana states are defined differs in the Suttas and in the Abhidhamma. When discussing planes of existence, we use the Sutta method; the 2nd Jhana of the radiant Gods does not have initial application nor sustained application as jhana factors. Gods of Refulgent Glory (Subhakinna Deva), Gods of Unbounded Glory (Appamanasubha Deva) and Gods of Limited Glory (Parittasubha Deva) =================================================================== Those who have mastered the third fine-material jhana (fourth fine- material jhana when using the Abhidhamma system) are reborn in realm of the Gods of Refulgent Glory for sixty-four eons. Those who have developed this jhana to a moderate degree are reborn in the realm of Gods of Unbounded Glory for thirty-two eons. Those who have developed this jhana to a minor degree are reborn in the realm of Gods of Limited Glory for sixteen eons. The Seven Fine-Material Realms Associated with the Fourth Jhana =============================================================== The seven fine-material realms associated with the fourth jhana are: - Fruitful Gods (Vehapphala) - Unconscious Beings (Asatta satta) - The Pure Abodes (Suddhavasa): Peerless Gods (Akanittha), Clear- Sighted Gods (Sudassi), Beautiful Gods (Suddassa), Untroubled Gods (Atappa), Durable Gods (Aviha) The three realms associated with the first jhana (Great Brahmas, Ministers of Brahma and Retinue of Brahma) share the same space; the beings in these three planes interact with each other. The three realms associated with the second jhana share the same space. The three realms associated with the third jhana share the same space. The first two realms associated with the fourth jhana (Fruitful Gods and Unconscious Beings) share the same space and each of the five Pure Abodes has their own space. Fruitful Gods (Vehapphala) =========================== This is the plane or rebirth for those who have achieved and maintained the fourth jhana but do not desire to be reborn without a mind. One remains in this realm for 500 eons. When a worldling reborn into this plane dies, they are reborn in another plane, not including the woeful states or the pure abodes. When a Noble One reborn into these planes dies, they are reborn in the same plane or higher (except the Asatta satta realm). Unconscious Beings (Asatta satta) ================================= The Asatta satta is the particular type of rebirth for one who develops meditation with the feeling of dispassion (viraga) in perception (satta). As a result of this, if he dies when his mind is absorbed in the fourth stage of jhana, he is born as an unconscious being in the world of form. He is actually a one-aggregate being, i.e., a being who possesses only the rupa-kkhandha, with the absence of all the other four aggregates, namely, feeling (vedana), perception (satta), disposition (sankhara) and consciousness (vittana). The Asatta satta is a being without any mental activities. He remains like a motionless stone in the realm from the beginning up to the end of his life (500 eons). At the end of their time in this realm, worldlings (Noble Ones are never born here) will be reborn in a happy destination (Sugati) according to the past kamma from the existence prior to the time as an Unconscious Being. The Pure Abodes (Suddhavasa): Peerless Gods (Akanittha), Clear- Sighted Gods (Sudassi), Beautiful Gods (Suddassa), Untroubled Gods (Atappa), Durable Gods (Aviha) ============================== Only those who attain the third holy stage (Anagami; non-returner) will be reborn, after death, in these realms. After death in a Pure Abode, the Anagami will be reborn into another Pure Abode (same level or higher); Anagami born into the Akanittha realm will definitely parinibbana from this realm (no rebirth). Once born in the Pure Abodes, the Anagami will attain Arahantship and parinibbana from one of these realms. All beings reborn into this realm are Anagami with the fourth jhana but the controlling principle or the directive force (indriya), which is the predominant character of each individual, will determine the realm where he is to be reborn: - One whose directive force is saddha (faith) will be reborn in the realm of Aviha for 1000 eons - One whose directive force is viriya (energy) will be reborn is the realm of Atappa for 2000 eons - One whose directive force is sati (mindfulness) will be reborn in the realm of Sudassa for 4000 eons - One whose directive force is samadhi (concentration) will be reborn in the realm of Sudassi for 8000 eons - One whose directive force is patta (knowledge or reason) will be reborn in the realm of Akanittha for 16000 eons According to the Mahapadana Sutta, the Pure Abodes were the only planes of existence where the Buddha, in his long wandering in Samsara before attaining Buddhahood, had never been born. The Buddha thought of this one day and appeared among the gods of the Suddhavasa. Many gods of the realm came to him and told him of the important events which had occurred in the periods of many previous Buddhas, beginning from the time of the Buddha named Vipassi who enlightened the world with his teachings ninety-one eons before the present one. Immaterial Worlds (Arupa-loka): Neither Perception nor Non- perception (N'evasatta-n'asattayatana), Nothingness (Akitcattayatana), Infinite Consciousness (Vittanatcayatana) and Infinite Space (Akasanatcayatana) ================================= The last planes of existence where living beings are born according to the result of their kamma are the immaterial worlds (arupa-loka). Beings in these worlds are pure mind and have no body. Similar to the rupa-loka, the arupa-loka is closely connected with the arupa jhana. This jhana can be developed only when a person has experienced and then abandoned all the four stages of rupa jhana. There are four stages of arupa jhana and the four realms of the arupa-loka correspond to the stage of arupa jhana maintained: 1. Akasanatcayatana: Having obtained and then abandoned the fourth stage of rupa jhana, the meditator applies his mind to the infinity of space. He thereby attains the first stage of arupa jhana. 2. Vittanatcayatana: Having obtained the first stage, the meditator switches his concentration to the infinity of consciousness. He thereby attains the second stage of arupa jhana. 3. Akitcattayatana: Having obtained the second stage, the meditator switches his concentration to nothingness. He thereby attains the third stage of arupa jhana. 4. N'evasatta-n'asattayatana: Having obtained the third stage, the meditator's mind enters a state in which cognition is so extremely subtle that it cannot be said whether it is or not. At this point he is regarded as having attained the fourth stage of arupa jhana. The lifespan of Arupa-loka Gods is as follows: - Infinite Space (Akasanatcayatana): 20,000 eons - Infinite Consciousness (Vittanatcayatana): 40,000 eons - Nothingness (Akitcattayatana): 60,000 eons - Neither Perception nor Non-perception (N'evasatta-n'asattayatana): 84,000 eons Alara, the ascetic who was the first teacher abandoned by the Buddha, was reborn in the Nothingness (Akitcattayatana) realm after dying one week before the Buddha decided to teach the Dhamma. Udaka, the ascetic who was the second teacher abandoned by the Buddha, was reborn in the Neither Perception nor Non-perception (N'evasatta- n'asattayatana) realm after dying on the night before the Buddha decided to teach the Dhamma. When a worldling reborn into these planes dies, they are reborn in another plane; one of the happy destinations (sugati) or in the same plane or higher. When a Noble One reborn into these planes dies, they are reborn in the same plane or higher. To explain the concept of a mind existing without a body, the texts use an analogy of an iron bar flung into the air. For a certain period, depending on the energy with which it is flung, the bar remains in the air without any support. Because these are the "highest" realms, one might mistakenly conclude that these are the "objective" of Buddhism. In fact, beings are propelled into these realms because of the delusion that the body is the source of suffering and a desire to be without body. Beings remain in this state for an incredibly long time but they are unable to hear the Dhamma or see a Buddha, so they do not improve themselves. Once their kammic force expires, they return to samsara. References ========== Baptist, Egerton C. – "31 Planes of Existence" Bodhi, Bhikkhu – "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" Mon, Dr. Mehm Tin – "Buddha Abhidhamma – Ultimate Science" Na-Rangsi, Sunthorn – "Existence: Rebirth and Planes of Existence" Suvano Mahathera, Ven. – "31 Planes of Existence" Metta, Rob M :-) 26159 From: Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 31 Planes (long message) for comments Hi Rob, Well done. What was your source? Are worlds, planes, and spheres concepts or realities? Larry 26160 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 31 Planes (long message) for comments Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Well done. What was your source? Are worlds, planes, and spheres > concepts or realities? Principal sources are listed at the end: - Baptist, Egerton C. – "31 Planes of Existence" - Bodhi, Bhikkhu – "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" - Mon, Dr. Mehm Tin – "Buddha Abhidhamma – Ultimate Science" - Na-Rangsi, Sunthorn – "Existence: Rebirth and Planes of Existence" - Suvano Mahathera, Ven. – "31 Planes of Existence" Worlds, planes and spheres are concepts. The only four ultimate realities are citta, cetasika, rupa and Nibbana. Metta, Rob M :-) 26161 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 31 Planes (long message) for comments Hi Larry (and all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Are worlds, planes, and spheres > > concepts or realities? > > Worlds, planes and spheres are concepts. The only four ultimate > realities are citta, cetasika, rupa and Nibbana. Two monks were arguing. The first monk said, "There is no use studying rebirth. We are supposed to focus on understanding the present moment and rebirth is a concept far removed from the present moment." The second monk said, "The Buddha talked a lot about rebirth in the Suttas. The Buddha would not have paid so much attention to rebirth if it were not worth studying." Unable to resolve the issue, the monks agreed to take the question to the Abbot. The first monk presented his case to the Abbot and the Abbot said, "You are correct." The second monk presented his case to the Abbot and the Abbot said, "You are correct." The two monks complained to the Abbot, "We can't both be correct!" The Abbot replied, "That is also correct!" How do I interpret this Zen-like parable? Based on our accumulations, each of us has our own path. For some people (such as myself), Abhidhamma is very satisfying. Abhidhamma is the right path for me. Others may find meditation practice to be very satisfying. For them, meditation is the right path. Yet others find strength in rites and rituals. Faith is the right path for them. At the end of the story, when the Abbot agreed that they can't both be correct, the Abbot is saying that there is no *one* right path for everybody. I anticipate that some may reply to my 31 planes message with, "This sounds like fairy tales." Others may reply with, "This helps me to better understand some of the Buddha's comments in the Suttas." A third group may have great faith in the accuracy of these descriptions because they were taken from the Suttas (and commentaries). All three groups are correct! Metta, Rob M :-) 26162 From: Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 31 Planes (long message) for comments Rob: "Worlds, planes and spheres are concepts. The only four ultimate realities are citta, cetasika, rupa and Nibbana." Hi Rob, Then worlds are not impermanent, are they? Larry 26163 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:20pm Subject: Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, If we can go over the suttas in DSG, that would be helpful. But I think it is more important to spend time in practice, even starting with 5-10 minutes a day. In a sense, these three discourses are like how-to manuals. To know what it is talking about, one has to verify it oneself with his or her own experience in practice. It is like learning how to ride bicycle. With or without help from other, the only way to learn how to ride a bicycle is to get on a bike and try to ride it. Have a good time in Myanmar! Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > > You asked: Being mindful of what? I would rather ask: How to > > develop right mindfulness? But for both questions, I would refer > to > > Satipatthana Sutta*, Anapanasati Sutta**, and Kayagata-sati > Sutta***. [snip] 26164 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Nina, I tend to understand the phrase "something more peaceful than that" as higher meditative state more peaceful than the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states. Thank you for your comments. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Victor, > I am butting in case Jon has no more time, almost on his way. [snip] 26165 From: monomuni Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:54pm Subject: The 18 Principal Insights Friends: The 18 Principal Insights: 1: Transience is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 2: Misery is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 3: No Self is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 4: Disgust is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 5: Disillusion is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 6: Ending is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 7: Relinquishment is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 8: Decay is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 9: Vanishing is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 10: Change is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 11: The Sign-less is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 12: The Desire-less is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 13: The Emptiness is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 14: The Supreme Ideas is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 15: Direct Knowledge is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 16: The Danger is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 17: Careful Contemplation is to be directly known by repeated reflection. 18: Turning Away is to be directly known by repeated reflection. These 18 Principal Insights are to be Directly Known. Source: Path of Discrimination by Sariputta. Only the Smile of Buddhas are Eternal … Friendship is truly GREATEST The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Random Dhammapada Verse 26166 From: bodhi342 Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Hello Nina and All, Hope all goes well with you. A dsg friend forwarded your response to Htoo's letter on Nibbana. Htoo's letter refers to questions strikingly similar to those I asked him way back in February right here on dsg. Since there never was any response from Htoo, either on- or off-line, I am glad to see the subject revisited. There seem to be several changes in his current version - it could very well be that someone else came up with similar questions about nibbana. Such a coincidence would be very interesting indeed! However, should it refer to my earlier questions, for the sake of accuracy, we ought to revisit Htoo's original turtle story message, and the actual questions in response to it. I will also try to more explicitly spell out what I was trying to get at with the use of analogy. [Subtlety does not always find its mark!] Following are Htoo's message, and then my questions: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:07 am Message# 19727 Subject: (5) Nibbana As Absolute Peace Dear Dhamma Friends, It is totally impossible to describe Nibbana. It is unthinkable,unimaginable but it can surely be experienced by an individual who has enough Parami and has passed through the necessary path at least three stages. There were a turtle and a fish.They met in an ocean.They both knew well about the water they experienced.One day,the turtle reached the shore and he crept up to the land.Then he learned well about the land.When he return to the ocean met again with the fish and he told all about the land he experienced to the fish. As the fish never experienced the land all he heard from the turtle were all impossible and unthinkable and unimaginable but the land did exist and the turtle really experienced it but the fish could not understand about the land what it meant, what it really was,and so on.He asked the turtle that whether the land was wet,the land could be swun through,the land was clear enough so that the light could pass through and so on.And he could not accept what the turtle said and he assumed the land as impossible thing.Actually the fish weighted the knowledge of the land with his own knowledge of the water he was in. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:17 pm Message# 19734 Subject: Re: (5) Nibbana As Absolute Peace Dear Htoo and All, I found your excellent analogy to explain why Nibbana is indescribable, very interesting. All descriptions that try to encompass or capture the essence of the ultimate unconditioned reality necessarily fail. I would like to extend your analogy by considering the following possibilities: That turtle would 'know' the land from its own experience, and would likely go back there by the same route. That is completely natural, understandable, and indeed, expected. So is its own assumption that only it knows the way to the land. Is it possible for other turtles, or even other animals, say crocodiles, penguins etc. to also have experienced both land and ocean? And if so, could they have got on to the same land at different locations, at different times, using different means? I would encourage calm consideration of the implications of these possibilities because they have both practical application and lend themselves to the type of testing that the Buddha recommended. metta, dharam ---------------------------------------------------------------------- NB: 1. 'land' is the analogy for Nibbana / ultimate reality; 2. 'turtle' is the analogy for a teacher who has repeatedly experienced the ultimate reality; 3. 'other animals' is the analogy for other teachers who may have a different understanding of the actual path, traveled at other times in history, yet describing the same ultimate experience. 4. Nothing to suggest that nibbana was actually related to space, time or other dimensions. The primary intent of my questions was to explore the possibility of multiple paths to the same 'destination'. We should reasonably expect that same ultimate reality to be described in subtly different terms depending on the teacher experiencing and later describing, ...........in so far as description is possible at all.... A valid question sometimes asked is why do 'true believers' have such an absolute certainty that theirs is the only path to the ultimate unconditioned reality? All the more surprising because few if any have actually made the journey! Yet, there is a degree of conceit and arrogance that sustains such a (self?) view, disguised as 'confidence'. Could it be that 'true believers' have to exclude other possibilities just to gain that very confidence in the first place? metta, dharam 26167 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 31 Planes (long message) for comments Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "Worlds, planes and spheres are concepts. The only four ultimate > realities are citta, cetasika, rupa and Nibbana." > > Hi Rob, > > Then worlds are not impermanent, are they? > > Larry Concepts (such as worlds or beings) are impermanent because they are conditioned. They only exist as long as the supporting conditions exist. Nama (citta and cetasika) exists for one citta-moment. Rupa exists for 17 citta-moments. It is my understanding that there is no fixed limit for the life of a concept, but that a concept will fall away when the supporting conditions no longer exist. The only unconditioned reality is Nibbana. Nibbana is "not impermanent"; Nibbana is permanent. Of course, the citta that takes Nibbana as its object is conditioned / impermanent. Metta, Rob M :-) 26168 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 31 Planes (long message) for comments Larry (and Rob M) As Howard is fond of pointing out (helpfully), any question of the form, Are worlds this or that?, already assumes the reality of a world, in a certain sense. This reflects our view of things as being with self. It is part of our inherent make-up. It makes it hard to grasp that paramattha dhammas are all there really is. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "Worlds, planes and spheres are concepts. The only four > ultimate > realities are citta, cetasika, rupa and Nibbana." > > Hi Rob, > > Then worlds are not impermanent, are they? > > Larry 26169 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 31 Planes (long message) for comments Larry (and Rob M) As Howard is fond of pointing out (helpfully), any question of the form, Are worlds this or that?, already assumes the reality of a world, in a certain sense. This reflects our view of things as being with self. It is part of our inherent make-up. It makes it hard to grasp that paramattha dhammas are all there really is. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "Worlds, planes and spheres are concepts. The only four > ultimate > realities are citta, cetasika, rupa and Nibbana." > > Hi Rob, > > Then worlds are not impermanent, are they? > > Larry 26170 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 31 Planes (long message) for comments Larry (and Rob M) As Howard is fond of pointing out (helpfully), any question of the form, Are worlds this or that?, already assumes the reality of a world, in a certain sense. This reflects our view of things as being with self. It is part of our inherent make-up. It makes it hard to grasp that paramattha dhammas are all there really is. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "Worlds, planes and spheres are concepts. The only four > ultimate > realities are citta, cetasika, rupa and Nibbana." > > Hi Rob, > > Then worlds are not impermanent, are they? > > Larry 26171 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 31 Planes (long message) for comments Larry (and Rob M) As Howard is fond of pointing out (helpfully), any question of the form, Are worlds this or that?, already assumes the reality of a world, in a certain sense. This reflects our view of things as being with self. It is part of our inherent make-up. It makes it hard to grasp that paramattha dhammas are all there really is. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "Worlds, planes and spheres are concepts. The only four > ultimate > realities are citta, cetasika, rupa and Nibbana." > > Hi Rob, > > Then worlds are not impermanent, are they? > > Larry 26172 From: Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:10pm Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) In a message dated 10/16/2003 12:42:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Or, they are concepts. (also known as illusions, mere > conventional designations, a number of parts taken as a > whole, pannatti.) > > Give up? :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > Hi Ken H Conepts are not illusions. They are mental states that arise and cease. Being befuddled by concepts in thinking that their referent has an intrinsic nature is the illusion! Thinking that physicality, mental formations, consciousness, and nibbana are ultimate realities with their own intrinsic natures is the illusion/delusion along with any other view that sees things as having their 'own nature.' If concepts (alone) were illusions, the Buddha would not have been able to communicate without being under the spell of illusion. A distinct impossibility. TG 26173 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:18am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Howard, ------------- H: . . . > I will go with the five khandhas plus nibbana. I haven't adopted the Abhidhamma scheme provided by the monk-scholars; I go with what the Buddha directly taught. ------------- Can you really follow the suttas without help? How can you know what the Buddha meant by "the five khandhas?" When you look for help, isn't the Abhidhamma-pitika the first resort? And then the ancient commentaries? Even Bhikkhu Thanissaro uses the Abhidhamma where it suits him. If he, or any other modern-day scholar, interprets some suttas in a way contrary to the ancient texts, why should we believe him? (For the benefit of any newcomers who may be reading; it is not accepted by all dsg members that the Abhidhamma is a forgery.) -------------- H: > And the Buddha taught about thought! Please reread the material I quoted in my post --------------- 'material about sankappa (vitakka), which, according to Nyanaponika, is "the laying hold of a thought, giving it attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the consciousness to the object." ('Buddhist Dictionary') But then, Nyanaponika used the Abhidhamma and commentaries. Otherwise, we could be left with conventional understanding of thought. We might never know that the absolute realities, vitakka and vicara, as taught by the Buddha, are very different. ------------- H: > I believe that your thoughts are trapped, circumscribed, and limited by Abhidhammic categories to such an extent that you are missing what is right before you. Sorry, but that's how I see it. ------------- No need to apologise, I get a bit frustrated by the 'other side' too. Where is the confusion (point-missing), that Abhidamma categories are supposedly causing? Are Abhidhamma scholars confused people? The little bit I have learnt seems perfectly logical and consistent. ------------- H: > The thought of "the tree in my garden" does, however, actually occur. If you think not, well, wait .. how could you think one way or the other, there being no thoughts at all! ------------- No one is claiming not to have thoughts. 'A thought' is different from 'thought' (thinking). And vitakka, as found in the Pali Canon, is virtually unknowable without a lot of help. Kind regards, Ken H 26174 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] 31 Planes (long message) for comments Dear All My apologies for the multiple copies of this post. A problematic hotel computer, I'm afraid. This morning Sarah and I met up with Christine at our hotel, and this afternoon we had discussion with Ajarn Sujin at the Foundation, along with Betty and also (surprise) Jack and Oi from California. Topics discussed included, in addition to 'the ususals' (seeing and visible object of the present moment etc), kalayana mitta, inherent nature of sense-door object, mana (conceit), akusala citta vs. akusala kamma as bringing result in the form of sense-door experience, various kinds of condition esepcially pakata-upanissaya, the precepts, balancing of faculties, etc. Jack and friends have just set up a webcast facility at the Foundation with a view to broadcasting the Thai talks and later the English ones too. Take care. Jon --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Larry (and Rob M) > > As Howard is fond of pointing out (helpfully), any question of the > form, Are worlds this or that?, already assumes the reality of a > world, in a certain sense. This reflects our view of things as > being > with self. It is part of our inherent make-up. It makes it hard > to > grasp that paramattha dhammas are all there really is. > > Jon > > > 26175 From: Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 10/17/03 6:50:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > ------------- > H: . . . >I will go with the five khandhas plus nibbana. > I haven't adopted the Abhidhamma scheme provided by the > monk-scholars; I go with what the Buddha directly taught. > ------------- > > Can you really follow the suttas without help? How can you > know what the Buddha meant by "the five khandhas?" When > you look for help, isn't the Abhidhamma-pitika the first > resort? And then the ancient commentaries? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Answering specifically for myself: For the most part, I study the suttas, our best record of what the Buddha taught, and, following the Kalama Sutta, I do my best in attempting to understand - but more importantly, I make must best effort in attempting the follow the Budhha's taught practice. (Of course, at times, elements of Abhidhamma and commentarial material are useful to me - at times Mahayana "sutras" are also useful. BTW, I do understand reasonably well what the five khandhas are. The Buddha was a wonderful expositor. ---------------------------------------------------- Even Bhikkhu > > Thanissaro uses the Abhidhamma where it suits him. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, we all use Abhidhamma and whatever else we like when it "suits" us. We particularly run to parts of the Abhidhamma and suttas that seem to support our already extant preconceptions! When I, for example, pick up what might be phenomenalism in parts of Abhidhamma or in certain suttas, why they immediately become the "best"! We are nearly hopeless, Ken! ;-)) It helps, at least, for us to be aware of our doing this. This is an example of how important guarding the mind door is. --------------------------------------------------- If he, > > or any other modern-day scholar, interprets some suttas > in a way contrary to the ancient texts, why should we > believe him? > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The only basis for our coming to believe anything is its making sense to us based on our own careful inspection and the relating it to our direct experience especially as grows out of the practice. We can *consider* anything: the original writings, alleged additional original material (Abhidhamma of a particular school), ancient commentaries from a particular school, modern commentaries etc. --------------------------------------------------------- > > (For the benefit of any newcomers who may be reading; it > is not accepted by all dsg members that the Abhidhamma is > a forgery.) ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Absolutely. It is orthodox Theravadin belief that the Buddha taught all of what eventually became, over a couple hundred years, the Abhidhamma Pitaka, that he taught it to shining beings in the Tavatimsa heaven (I believe) and, on each return from that heaven realm, to his first lieutenant, Sariputta. I consider this to be a pleasant legend, created to attempt to give authority to the Abhidhamma Pitaka in much the same way as Mahayanists attempted to validate their very-late-appearing scriptures by saying that they were taught early on to nagas (serpent-like beings) who provided safekeeping for them until humans were "ready" for such "higher" teaching. ------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > H: >And the Buddha taught about thought! Please reread > the material I quoted in my post > --------------- > > 'material about sankappa (vitakka), which, according to > Nyanaponika, is "the laying hold of a thought, giving it > attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the > consciousness to the object." ('Buddhist Dictionary') > > But then, Nyanaponika used the Abhidhamma and > commentaries. Otherwise, we could be left with > conventional understanding of thought. We > might never know that the absolute realities, vitakka and > vicara, as taught by the Buddha, are very different. > > ------------- > H: >I believe that your thoughts are trapped, > circumscribed, and limited by Abhidhammic categories to > such an extent that you are missing what is right > before you. Sorry, but that's how I see it. > ------------- > > No need to apologise, I get a bit frustrated by the > 'other side' too. Where is the confusion (point-missing), > that Abhidamma categories are supposedly causing? Are > Abhidhamma scholars confused people? The little bit > I have learnt seems perfectly logical and consistent. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Just for the record, you have skipped here something else I added: " (No doubt you see me as being even more seriously in error! Fun, isn't it?? ;-))" I would like to make it clear that, though I do believe the positions I put forward, I do not *know* they are correct, and I don't insist on them. -------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------- > H: >The thought of "the tree in my garden" does, > however, actually occur. If you think not, well, wait .. > how could you think one way or the other, there being no > thoughts at all! > ------------- > > No one is claiming not to have thoughts. 'A thought' > is different from 'thought' (thinking). And vitakka, > as found in the Pali Canon, is virtually unknowable > without a lot of help. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Huh? Sorry - don't get what you are saying. ----------------------------------------------------- > > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26176 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 9:15am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Dear Ken H & Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > > Any reality arising is always due to ‘an intricate set of conditions’. For > example, we say that seeing consciousness is the result of kamma. This > means that kamma is the main condition and without it, there could be no > vipaka. But there have to be many other support conditions for that vipaka > citta to arise - eg object condition (the visible object), proximity > cond., conascence, mutuality, depenence, presence, decisive support and so > on and so on. (Kom, keep an eye on what I write too...) No trouble here!!! > > As for the inherent pleasantness/unpleasantness, as you explained to > Howard, this is inherent to the rupa. We discussed before how it’s > impossible for us to know at any time whether we are seeing a pleasant or > unpleasant visible object. Various examples were given of how we may be > fooled in this regard. (let me know if you’d like me to find the other > posts). “Saataruupa.m (‘agreeable’) is what is classed as agreeable. > [this signifies] a desirable object as proximate cause of enjoyment” > (Dispeller,16, 2286). > .... > > You are referring to the Balinese bathroom I thoughtfully > > incorporated into the family home. Why are women so > > unappreciative? > .... The text says the only surefire way to know if it is kusala or akusala vipaka is to know the difference between the two types of cittas! Of course, this is incredibly subtle (just imagine, an unskilled worldling already has a hard-time distinguishing between lobha and kusala - which share the same set of feelings, and the differences between these two are gross comparatively), and only the most differentiating wisdom can tell the differences. If you don't have one of those, then you just have to plainly guess, just like me! kom 26177 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Larry, op 17-10-2003 01:02 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > The best satipatthana is just > looking at what arises without comment. N: But it should be looking with understanding, not merely looking. There is likely to be thinking about realities more often than direct awareness, but also thinking can be realized as it is: only a conditioned nama. Nina. 26178 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paramattha dhammas Hi Larry, these are useful points for considering. op 17-10-2003 00:45 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > What paramattha dhamma is born? N: conditioned dhammas are born, produced, come into being, are originated. Thus, citta, cetasika and rupa. So long as ignorance has not been eradicated, it conditions the continuation of the cycle of birth and death. In Vis. 22, it is said, (paccayasambhuuta) is meaning (attha). In the Tiika 22 I came upon the word, "structure of conditions" (paccayaakaara). Now this refers to the Dependent Origination. I looked up Dispeller I, Ch 6, the Structure of Conditions, which deals in detail with the Dependent Origination. Under para 919 and 920 it is explained that the Wheel of Existence is profound in meaning. As you have read in Vis. 24, also the understanding of the four noble Truths are discrimination of dhamma and of meaning. The four noble Truths are deep and difficult to understand. Also the four discriminations are deep and difficult to understand. L: Death, foulness, and the breath are > always contemplated as impermanent, and therefore realities, never as > mere concepts. There is a mix, even in the abhidhamma, of paramattha > dhammas and what you would call concepts. N: I am glad you remind me of death. There are three kinds of death: conventional death, momentary death and final death of the arahat. The Buddha spoke in conventional language about birth, old age, sickness and death as dukkha, with the aim to point to the truth of paramattha dhammas. Understanding should be developed of the dhamma appearing at this moment, so that it can eventually be seen as impermanent, dukkha and non-self. I may think of death which is sure to come. At the dying moment all my illusions, hopes, stories, memories fall away with the last citta. It is good to realize this, and it can bring us to the present moment which is actually not different: we may be thinking about many stories, but each moment falls away and where are the stories we find so important? Foulness and breath are explained with the aim to bring us back to the present moment: one nama or rupa appearing at a time. Breath is only a rupa conditioned by citta, it is impermanent. In the Tipitaka, the Abhidhamma included, conventional language is used only with the aim to point to the reality of the present moment. Nina. 26179 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY CHAPTER FOUR !!!! Dear Icaro, Thank you for your diary, I like it very much. I answer now, since only the weekend you are around. But do you have some leave next week? What is the sheep road? op 12-10-2003 17:53 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > > 9. Impulsion (Nos. 9 to 15 - where kamma is produced, where > moral or immoral consciousness arises - Cf. Javana´s definition)- > Bang! > 10. Impulsion - Bang! > 11. Impulsion - Bang! > 12. Impulsion - Bang! > 13. Impulsion - Bang! > 14. Impulsion - Bang! > 15. Impulsion - Bang! N: A lively way of presenting the process of cittas. I: > Fortunately I hit all my rounds, and that´s stimulating for my > illusory ego N: Very good to see this. It is so natural. > 16. Registering Consciousness (see Tadalammana)- (gosh!!! I > am firing well, just at the target´s centre!!!!) > 17. Registering Consciousness - the doughboy at my side is > missing ALL the rounds! I am afraid he will shoot at my target...or > at ME!!!! N: I had a good laugh. I: one can get a good analogy for a shooting sequence but at > other life´s aspects such remarks must be investigated on N: Yes. It reminds me that even during one bang there are already many processes going on. Hearing in the eye-door process, like or dislike in the same eye-door rpocess, mind-door process of cittas which only experience the sound, after that again other processes through the mind-door which know the origin of the sound, and think with like or dislike of it, other cittas with coneit: I am better than my neighbour. > Conditions for Pañca-viññaa to arise : > Cakkhu 1. visual organ 2. visual object 3. light 4. attention > Sota 1. audiory organ 2. sounds 3. space 4. attention > Ghaana 1. olfactory organ 2. smells 3. air 4. attention > Jivhaa 1. gustory 2. tastes 3. water 4. attention N: The Atthasalini gives fine details. If the tongue would not be wet you would not taste anything. I: 3 mind-elements: > > 1. sense-door consciousness which is consciousness > 2. moral receiving consciousness (Kusala) > 3. immoral receiving consciousness (Akusala). N: better add kusala vipaka and akusala vipaka, they are only vipaka. Looking forward to the next issues. Nina. P.S. You just copied the Tipitaka in time, because now the Tipitaka org is off line for a while. I was too late for my Tiika!! 26180 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] 31 Planes for comments op 17-10-2003 02:07 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: Dear Rob M, Thank you very much, this is very complete. Only recently I became more interested in the Earthboud devas, because I translated the Dhamma Issue about rebirth of devas from Thai. We very so often come accross these notions in the suttas. Useful to know more details. With appreciation, Nina. > > Worlds, Planes and Spheres > ========================== 26181 From: Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paramattha dhammas Hi Nina, I disagree that cittas are born. Only babies are born. This is the correct use of these words. I agree that everything in abhidhamma points to the present moment. Larry 26182 From: Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:24pm Subject: nibbana, panna, & anusaya Hi Nina, Suppose someone asked, what is the difference between the mundane consciousness of panna (as object) and the supramundane consciousness of nibbana? Could it be that the only difference is the presense or absence of the underlying tendencies (anusaya)? Larry 26183 From: Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 31 Planes (long message) for comments Hi Rob, Sarah has gone to extraordinary lengths to explain that concepts are not conditioned and therefore not impermanent. She may be able to provide some sources when she gets back to HK. Here is one from Visuddhimagga VIII, note 68: Note 68. 'In such passages as "Dhammas that are concepts" (Dhs., p. 1;1308) even a non-entity (abhaava) is thus called a "dhamma" since it is borne (dhaariiyati) and affirmed (avadhaariiyatii) by knowledge. That kind of dhamma is excluded by his saying "Dhammas [means] individual essences". The act of becoming (bhavana), which constitutes existingness (vijjamaanataa) in the ultimate sense, is essence (bhaava); it is with essence (saha bhaavena), thus it is an individual essence (sabhaava); the meaning is that it is possible (labbhamaanaruupa) in the true sense, in the ultimate sense. For these are called "dhammas (bearers)" because they bear (dhaara.na) their own individual essences (sabhaava), and they are called "individual essences" in the sense already explained' (Pm. 282; cf. Ch. VII, n.1). L: I think the answer is that since worlds, spheres, and planes are figures of speech (from one point of view), their impermanence is also a figure of speech. Larry ------------------ Rob: "Concepts (such as worlds or beings) are impermanent because they are conditioned..." 26184 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:25pm Subject: Egypt Diary: Real Reason Hi All, As I become more settled into Cairo, I begin to reflect on the reason I came here. This may be a bit of a surprise, but I didn't come to Cairo to learn about Egyptian culture. I didn't have that much interest in Arabic culture before leaving the US and I didn't think that coming here would change much about that. I wasn't just dying to see the pyramids, the Nile, or really anything else in Egypt. It isn't a culture that interests me terribly; Asian culture is the one that interests me the most. So why did I come here? Believe it or not, I came here for the same reason that I left for Thailand to become a monk: I felt that I needed to. When I first heard about their being a job opening in Cairo, I thought to myself, "No way!" Repressive society, smelly camels, smoking shish a…count me out! But then I one day had an epiphany that Egypt was exactly the place I should go; maybe because it was the place that didn't interest me that much. I came to Egypt to get away from it all. So far my updates sound very negative about Egypt, and they are negative. Make no doubts about it, I don't like Egypt in the slightest…but I wasn't really expecting to. Why complain then? Well, call it `Growing Pains'. Even though I know that ultimately it is going to be a good experience for me, that doesn't mean I have to like it! ;-) I have the situation now in Cairo that I hoped to have by becoming a monk (until I discovered that monks aren't really monks anymore). I live alone; I have little contact with other people; I have little connection with anything in my environment, and no desire to make a connection; I have no possibility for romantic relationships (in Egypt gays are thrown in jail); and alcohol/beer is nearly impossible to find so I don't drink any. I am about as isolated and deprived as I can be without actually being a monk. It is exactly what I need. I have brought the entire Buddhist Canon with me (minus the Abhidhamma ;-) and I have begun to read it from beginning to end, very slowly. I have also begun to meditate much more frequently than before and with deeper intensity (even though I have been sick a lot). I am learning about myself in new ways and with new depth. That is the real reason I came to Cairo. 26185 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:20pm Subject: Concepts not conditioned, not impermanent Hi Sarah (and Larry), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Sarah has gone to extraordinary lengths to explain that concepts are not > conditioned and therefore not impermanent. She may be able to provide > some sources when she gets back to HK. This is interesting. Could you point me to past posts where this has been discussed? Sarah, as you are an English teacher, I know you abhor double negatives :-) Can I therefore imply that "not impermanent" means that concepts are "permanent"? Metta, Rob M :-) 26186 From: Lynn Cohen Date: Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:42pm Subject: bhavanga Hi Amara and dhamma friends, Our group in Ringwood , Victoria,Australia study the Abhihamma in Daily Life by Nina . We do have questions that we would like to "put out there" for your perusal. One of these questions concerns the bhavanga citta. We understand the bhavanga citta is vipakacitta, a result. We also understand that it is conditioned by the patisandhi citta.Does this stream of bhavanga that continues on from life (understanding that it arises and falls away in the present moment) to life hold all the karmic seeds from our past lives like a sort of reservoir of information? With Metta, Lynn 26187 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:21pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi TG (and Howard and Andrew), ------------- TG: > Concepts are not illusions. They are mental states that arise and cease. ------------ It would be good if you could flesh this out a little. Your use of 'mental states' needs to be defined. According to the definition I know, 'mental states' does not include concepts. ------------ TG: > Being befuddled by concepts in thinking that their referent has an intrinsic nature is the illusion! ------------ Again, this statement needs to be supported with evidence. From the Abhidhamma, I understand that some concepts refer to absolute realities (which do have intrinsic nature), and some concepts refer to other concepts (which don't have intrinsic nature). In either case, the concept is not a reality. Whether we have the concept of a coffee cup (not real), or the concept of a cetasika (real), the concept itself is not real. ------------- TG: > Thinking that physicality, mental formations, consciousness, and nibbana are ultimate realities with their own intrinsic natures is the illusion/delusion along with any other view that sees things as having their 'own nature.' --------------- This is a big statement. The texts we are studying explain, in great detail, the intrinsic nature (sabhava), of things that are absolutely real (paramattha dhammas). -------------- TG: > If concepts (alone) were illusions, the Buddha would not have been able to communicate without being under the spell of illusion. A distinct impossibility. --------------- You can use an illusion, a concept, without being under the spell of it. Even we worldlings can, at the intellectual level, see the illusory nature of concepts; Arahants see it perfectly. While you are waiting for Sarah to reply to your previous post, I would like to make a few comments on it: Sarah had asked: > Can you give any further support for this, i.e thoughts/ideas/concepts > being inc. in sankharakkhandha? And you wrote: ------------ TG: > I thought I'd take a shot at this through deductive logic; trying to incorporate Abhidhamma point of view... Anything that arises would be conditioned and that would include, in total, the 5 aggregates. ------------- In what followed, you included thoughts (ideas, concepts), under the heading of 'anything that arises.' That means you and Sarah were, I think, talking at cross- purposes. The crux of the distinction between concepts and realities is that the former are just figures of speech, not ultimately existent. So, obviously, they don't arise, they don't do anything. The latter are absolutely real -- they arise, persist and subside (even though only for the briefest possible moment). This is where Howard and I get a little impatient. We accuse each other of being unable to see what is right under our noses. Naturally, I am right and Howard is wrong. As you will have seen, Howard posits the existence of a thought that exists, even when its referents do not. This seems to be a round-about way of proving that concepts -- living beings, coffee cups and so on -- can be seen as anicca, dukkha and anatta. It's simply wrong. Or should I say, 'it's simply not Dhamma.' As for that sutta you quoted: "Feeling, perception, and consciousness, friend -- these states are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is impossible to separate each of these states from the others (Majjhima # 43), Dsg has discussed it at length but I've forgotten. Andrew raised it last time so he may recall the details (although he hasn't been getting much computer time lately). Kind regards, Ken H ] 26188 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:33pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Ken, I think it would be helpful if the discussion is focused on what the Buddha taught. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi TG (and Howard and Andrew), [snip] 26189 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:47pm Subject: Re: bhavanga Hi Lynn, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lynn Cohen wrote: > We understand the bhavanga citta is vipakacitta, a result. We also understand that it is conditioned by the patisandhi citta.Does this stream of bhavanga that continues on from life (understanding that it arises and falls away in the present moment) to life hold all the karmic seeds from our past lives like a sort of reservoir of information? You are correct that a bhavanga citta is a vipaka citta, it is the result of the last thought in the previous existence. Bhavaga citta is a type of citta that takes different names when it performs different functions. For example, the patisandhi (rebirth- linking) citta is actually a bhavanga (patisandhi being its function). Cuti (death) citta is another bhavanga citta (cuti being its function). It is therefore not correct to say that bhavanga cittas are conditioned by the patisandhi citta. The arising of a bhavanga citta depends on many conditions, such as the falling away of the previous citta (according to the laws of citta; citta-niyama). The concept of a reservoir of kamma was raised by a later (Mahayana) version of Abhidhamma but is not part of the Theravada tradition. Consider the following analogy; there is a fruit on a tree - what are the conditions that caused that fruit to be at that location on that tree? The fruit and its location are not 'stored' in the seed of the tree. Hope that my comments clarify rather than confuse. Metta, Rob M :-) 26190 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:57pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) ---Dear Ken For the sake of clarity and so that I can follow the discussions it might be better to use concept when meaning pannati rather then thoughts. This is because most English translations of the ultimate realities that occur when thinking such as vittaka and vicara are translated as thinking. Thus if you mean concepts say 'ideas' or 'concepts' rather than 'thoughts' which is liable to confuse ultimate reality with pannati. RobertK dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > In what followed, you included thoughts (ideas, > concepts), under the heading of 'anything that arises.' > That means you and Sarah were, I think, talking at cross- > purposes. 26191 From: Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:46pm Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) In a message dated 10/17/2003 8:22:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > In what followed, you included thoughts (ideas, > concepts), under the heading of 'anything that arises.' > That means you and Sarah were, I think, talking at cross- > purposes. The crux of the distinction between concepts > and realities is that the former are just figures of > speech, not ultimately existent. So, obviously, they > don't arise, they don't do anything. The latter are > absolutely real -- they arise, persist and subside (even > though only for the briefest possible moment). > Hi Ken H Concepts are imaginations. The imaginations do exist and they are mental states. If concepts didn't exist, how could you possibly think? It seems to me you are confusing concepts with the 'referent' of concepts. For example, the concept of 'dog' does arise and cease due to conditions. The 'referent' of that concept (an actual dog for example) does not exist at all and does not arise or cease (in that conceptual realm). The mental states that conceptualize a dog do. TG 26192 From: Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:52pm Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) In a message dated 10/17/2003 8:58:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > ---Dear Ken > For the sake of clarity and so that I can follow the discussions it > might be better to use concept when meaning pannati rather then > thoughts. This is because most English translations of the ultimate > realities that occur when thinking such as vittaka and vicara are > translated as thinking. Thus if you mean concepts say 'ideas' > or 'concepts' rather than 'thoughts' which is liable to confuse > ultimate reality with pannati. > RobertK > Hi RobertK I'm curious as to how ideas and concepts are not thoughts? TG 26193 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 0:06am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Howard, We were talking about understanding suttas without outside assistance. You wrote: ----------- > Answering specifically for myself: For the most part, I study the suttas, our best record of what the Buddha taught, and, following the Kalama Sutta, I do my best in attempting to understand - but more importantly, I make must best effort in attempting the follow the Budhha's taught practice. ------------ I should just accept this and leave well alone:-) But no, I am compelled to badger you and try to make you see things my way: 'The Buddha's taught practice' is what we should all be attempting to follow but what is it? I've done a Goenka course and I've followed dozens of meditation techniques found in books; but are they what the Buddha taught? They are the works of meditation teachers. For authenticity, they quote little bits of text taken from here and there in the Pali Canon. Why can't they point to one sutta where the Buddha teaches formal vipassana meditation? ('Formal meditation' as opposed to 'momentary, conditioned right understanding.') Let alone, vipassana meditation, why doesn't he teach jhana meditation? He describes jhana in intricate detail but, as far as I know, it is only the ancient commentators who, in the Visudhimagga, explain step by step how to get there. (They don't do the same for formal vipassana meditation; in fact, they pooh pooh the very idea.) I think the answer is simple; meditation is not the Middle Way, the practice taught by the Buddha. ----------------- H: > (Of course, at times, elements of Abhidhamma and commentarial material are useful to me - at times Mahayana "sutras" are also useful. BTW, I do understand reasonably well what the five khandhas are. The Buddha was a wonderful expositor. --------------- But, as you know only too well, I don't think you do understand what the five khandhas are; You think they include thoughts (ideas, concepts). But they don't and the Abhidhamma makes that perfectly clear. It's a huge difference; the five khandhas with concepts are infinitely different from the five khandhas without concepts. ------------- H: > Yes, we all use Abhidhamma and whatever else we like when it "suits" us. We particularly run to parts of the Abhidhamma and suttas that seem to support our already extant preconceptions! When I, for example, pick up what might be phenomenalism in parts of Abhidhamma or in certain suttas, why they immediately become the "best"! We are nearly hopeless, Ken! ;-)) It helps, at least, for us to be aware of our doing this. This is an example of how important guarding the mind door is. ----------------- No argument there. Phew! :-) ---------------- . . . . . K: > > > No one is claiming not to have thoughts. 'A thought' > is different from 'thought' (thinking). And vitakka, > as found in the Pali Canon, is virtually unknowable > without a lot of help. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Huh? Sorry - don't get what you are saying. ------------ I see what you mean, it looks like a dog's breakfast. In my opinion, you have been equating 'thought' the noun with 'thought' the verb. In Abhidhamma, a thought (the noun), is an idea, a concept (pannatti). Thought (the verb), can refer to vitakka and/or vicara which are cetasikas. Thanks for your patience. Kind regards, Ken H 26194 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 0:19am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Robert (and Howard), > For the sake of clarity and so that I can follow the discussions it > might be better to use concept when meaning pannati rather then > thoughts. Good idea. It's a pity I didn't read this before sending my lastest post to Howard. It has just occurred to me that it still didn't clear up the confusion; I got confused over what is a verb and what is a noun. Never mind. Kind regards, Ken H 26195 From: monomuni Date: Fri Oct 17, 2003 9:11pm Subject: The 12 clever Skills! Friends: The 12 Skills! There is the Skill of Establishing the Appearance of Phenomena: As Transient, thereby not confirming the deception of permanence. As Miserable, thereby not reinforcing the deceit of satisfaction. As Not-self, thereby not supporting the conceit of “I-Me-Ego-Mine”. As Insubstantial, thereby not proving the trickery of compactness. As Loss, thereby not verifying the misinterpretation of accumulation. As Change, thereby not ascertaining the delusion of durability. As Sign-less, thereby not assuring the illusion of representation. As Undesirable, thereby not enhancing the obsession of ever wanting. As Empty, thereby not boosting the apparent ownership of identity. As Knowledge, thereby not encouraging the terror of doubt. As Relinquishment, thereby not prolonging the glinging of attachment. As Ceasing, thereby not maintaining the slavery of construction. These are the 12 clever & advantageous mental skills… --oo0oo-- Source: The Path of Discrimination. Patidasambhidamagga by Sariputta. Friendship is truly GREATEST The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ One who has conquered all defilements, cannot be defeated. Such a one is The Buddha, who has attained unlimited power. Random Dhammapada Verse 179 26196 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 0:49am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) > > Hi RobertK > > I'm curious as to how ideas and concepts are not thoughts? > > TG > ================ Dear TG, The thinking process is real but the concepts that are thought about are not. This becomes clearer as the different khandhas are studied directly (insighted) . One may think of a girl one knows and during this there are concepts - the girl- and also realities. The realities include the khandha of vedana, feeling. And this has real characteristics and it arises and passes away so rapidly during what may seem a very brief 'thought'. Or there may be awareness of how lobha - attachment, part of sankhara khandha , and a reality, arises during the thinking process , or any other reality which may be present. In the Nidanavagga of the Samyutta nikaya : Opammasamyutta The Archers, The Buddha gave the example of some incredibly fast action and then said: "Bhikkus as swift as that man is, still swifter are the sun and moon.....and the vital formations [ayusankhara]perish even more swifty than that." The commentary to this (see bodhi p.819) says this is with reference to the physical life faculty which perishes even faster than that. But it is not possible to describe the breakup of the formless phenomena -mental states - (becuase they break up even faster). Thus if there is not distinguishing of concept from reality - right from the beginning- one may think about impermanence, that this or that dies, falls away etc. But this is still only thinking about impermanence and there might be no awareness of the actual realities that are truly falling away while thinking is occuring. RobertK 26197 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342" > A valid question sometimes asked is why do 'true believers' have such > an absolute certainty that theirs is the only path to the ultimate > unconditioned reality? All the more surprising because few if any > have actually made the journey! Yet, there is a degree of conceit > and arrogance that sustains such a (self?) view, disguised > as 'confidence'. > > Could it be that 'true believers' have to exclude other possibilities > just to gain that very confidence in the first place? > > metta, > dharam ========== Dear Dharam, Good to see you back, hope to see more of you. In the case of the Buddha's followers faith, saddha is a helpful component. The Buddha explained in the Mahaparinnibbana sutta that: "in this Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, is found the Noble Eightfold Path; and in it alone are also found true ascetics of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness. Devoid of true ascetics are the systems of other teachers". If the Buddha was wrong and there are other teachers who teach the path to arahantship would he be worthy of the title Buddha? Was he conceited? RobertK 26198 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 4:19am Subject: Brief report from Bangkok Dear All We are just back after spending most of the day at the Foundation. This morning we had another stimulating discussion with Ajaran Sujin. Today we were joined by Sukin as well as dsg lurkers Shakti (and her friend Sandra) and Ivan, and other regulars of the English discussion group (and the others from yesterday). Christine seemed to have got over her shock-and-horror at the thought of the discussion being webcast to the world at large (a trial of the new equipment to go into operation for the Thai discussions) and we all had a good session. After lunch, generously provided for us by Kh Duangduen, we had more discusison among ourselves as Ajarn Sujin was engaged with other visitors. Strong views were exchanged about the Vessantara Jataka ;-)) Tomorrow we have a 'rest day' in preparation for a 6:00am rendezvous at the airport for our flight to Myanmar (forst stop, Mandalay). Sarah and I are very much enjoying the ongoing discussion here. Thanks to you all for keeping things going in our absence. Jon 26199 From: Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:53am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Ken (and TG) - In a message dated 10/17/03 11:22:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > This is where Howard and I get a little impatient. We > accuse each other of being unable to see what is right > under our noses. Naturally, I am right and Howard is > wrong. As you will have seen, Howard posits the > existence of a thought that exists, even when its > referents do not. This seems to be a round-about way of > proving that concepts -- living beings, coffee cups and > so on -- can be seen as anicca, dukkha and anatta. It's > simply wrong. Or should I say, 'it's simply not Dhamma.' > ========================== I really do not know what you are talking about. Living beings, coffee cups and so on do not exist except figuratively. There are no such things in actuality. It is nonsense to say (literally and not figuratively) that "they" arise, and it is also nonsense to say that "they" do not arise. In reality, there *are* no such things. It is nonsense to literally assert anything of what does not exist, and that includes denying that "they" have certain characteristics. There *are* no such things as living beings and coffee cups, but there *are* (that is, there *do arise*) the concepts, thoughts, ideas of each of these things, which is exactly why we *seem* to experience living beings and coffee cups. Are you unaware of thoughts of coffee cups, Ken? Ken, I strongly suggest you look up in a dictionary the word 'concept'. You will see that it refers primarily to thoughts or ideas - to mental phenomena, and not to what such thoughts allegedly refer to, not to their alleged denotative meanings. When someone says "The Buddha just came to mind," they do *not* mean that the (literally nonexistent) being who is intended referent of the term 'Buddha' came to mind; they mean that a mental phenomenon occurred - they mean a *thought* arose, not "the Buddha". Speaking *figuratively*, the Buddha was a person who existed circa 2500 B.C.E., and he was not and is not a concept. There are, however, Buddha-thoughts (i.e., thoughts of the Buddha) that arise and cease all the time. The historical Buddha was a conventional reality, else all of us Buddhists are totally insane! (Which is, of course, a possibility! ;-) He was not an actuality, however. Speaking literally, there never was such a thing as the Buddha. Buddha-thoughts, however, are literal realities, and they arise in many mindstreams quite frequently. If you and others wish to use the words 'thought', 'concept', and 'idea' in a way different from that normally used by native speakers of English, a way which conflates thoughts with their intended referents, it would be better if you would come up with different words, or simply stop mixing apples and oranges. For some odd reason, it seems that you and some others on DSG are either eager to evict cognitive functions from the namic inventory, or you are determined to use language in a way that others do not. In either case, it simply creates confusion, as I see it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26200 From: Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 3:09am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 10/17/03 11:58:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > ---Dear Ken > For the sake of clarity and so that I can follow the discussions it > might be better to use concept when meaning pannati rather then > thoughts. This is because most English translations of the ultimate > realities that occur when thinking such as vittaka and vicara are > translated as thinking. Thus if you mean concepts say 'ideas' > or 'concepts' rather than 'thoughts' which is liable to confuse > ultimate reality with pannati. > RobertK > ============================== Thank you, Robert! What you are suggesting is a move in the direction of sticking with standard language use, and I applaud it. It happens that the words 'concept' and 'idea' do, very occasionally, refer to intended *referents* of thoughts rather than the thoughts themselves, and when that is so, these words are proper translations of 'pa~n~natti'. However, most of the time, 'concept' and 'idea' carry the same meaning as 'thought', and are more properly translations of 'vitakka' or 'vacara' in these cases. What is needed, it seems to me, is an English term that means "intended concept reference," but I'm not aware of such a term. If there is none such, then this suggests that the Pali word 'pa~n~natti' should be imported into English. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26201 From: Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 3:19am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Ken - Just a couple comments: In a message dated 10/18/03 3:07:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > I think the answer is simple; meditation is not the > Middle Way, the practice taught by the Buddha. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, so *don't* meditate, Ken! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------- > > H: >Yes, we all use Abhidhamma and whatever else we like > when it "suits" us. We particularly run to parts of the > Abhidhamma and suttas that seem to support our already > extant preconceptions! When I, for example, pick up what > might be phenomenalism in parts of Abhidhamma or in > certain suttas, why they immediately become the "best"! > We are nearly hopeless, Ken! ;-)) It helps, at least, > for us to be aware of our doing this. This is an example > of how important guarding the mind door is. > ----------------- > > No argument there. Phew! :-) > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------- > . . . . . > > K: >> > >No one is claiming not to have thoughts. 'A thought' > >is different from 'thought' (thinking). And vitakka, > >as found in the Pali Canon, is virtually unknowable > >without a lot of help. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Huh? Sorry - don't get what you are saying. > ------------ > > I see what you mean, it looks like a dog's breakfast. > > In my opinion, you have been equating 'thought' the noun > with 'thought' the verb. In Abhidhamma, a thought (the > noun), is an idea, a concept (pannatti). Thought (the > verb), can refer to vitakka and/or vicara which are > cetasikas. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Our language usage is noun-bound, Ken, an unfortunate fact which helps support our tendency to reify. We talk of cittas as "things", we talk of hardness as a "thing". This is all wrong speech. These are events/occurrences/happenings/ functionings, not entities, and they are all ungraspable. Thoughts are thinkings! ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26202 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 8:57am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Ken, Regarding meditation practice, one discourse that you can refer to is Majjhima Nikaya 118 Anapanasati Sutta Mindfulness of Breathing http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html I think I can understand your frustration about how to meditate. But please don't give up. Keep trying and verify your own practice with what the Buddha taught. Over time, you will gain confidence. (But it does take time!!) Again, follow what the Buddha taught in Anapanasati Sutta and keep trying. Verify your own practice with what the Buddha taught in Anapanasati Sutta, as well as what the Buddha taught on what right concentration is. Do you know how to ride a bicycle?? If you do, how did you learn it? Anyway, don't give up trying. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Howard, [snip] 26203 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Dear Dharam, How have you been. I am so glad to hear from you. I have thought of you after our correspondance, but I presumed that you must have been busy. Did you leave dsg for a while? I hope you will stay on and contribute with your input. op 17-10-2003 06:23 schreef bodhi342 op bodhi342@y...: > The primary intent of my questions was to explore the possibility of > multiple paths to the same 'destination'. We should reasonably > expect that same ultimate reality to be described in subtly different > terms depending on the teacher experiencing and later > describing, ...........in so far as description is possible at all.... > > A valid question sometimes asked is why do 'true believers' have such > an absolute certainty that theirs is the only path to the ultimate > unconditioned reality? All the more surprising because few if any > have actually made the journey! Yet, there is a degree of conceit > and arrogance that sustains such a (self?) view, disguised > as 'confidence'. N: I can understand that you wonder about this, it seems so dogmatic that there is only one way. However, the Buddha spoke in the satipatthana sutta about the one and only way. There is such and such practice, the eightfold Path and it leads to the end of defilements, to nibbana. But let everybody find out for himself whether the development of the Path is the way to get closer to the goal, very gradually. Nina. 26204 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] the usuals Dear Jonothan, op 17-10-2003 14:31 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: we had discussion with Ajarn Sujin at the Foundation, along > with Betty and also (surprise) Jack and Oi from California. N: Please my warmest regards to both of them. I regret not being there to see them also. J: Topics discussed included, in addition to 'the ususals' (seeing and > visible object of the present moment etc), kalayana mitta... N: The usuals, a short reminder, but so helpful today. Lodewijk and I had a beautiful nature hike in crisp, sunny whether, enjoying the autumn (fall) colours. I thought of "the usuals", and the fact that we hear this year in year out and that we never have enough of it. Why? We are captured by the pleasant objects through the eyes and immediately create stories about them. I had to laugh, I was doing this all the time and also thinking of your words about "the usuals". Such a good time with your reminder, it is wonderful. It is so obvious that only visible object is seen, but it is so enticing! With much appreciation, Nina. 26205 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 11:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > The text says the only surefire way to know if it is kusala or akusala > vipaka is to know the difference between the two types of cittas! Of > course, this is incredibly subtle (just imagine, an unskilled worldling > already has a hard-time distinguishing between lobha and kusala - which > share the same set of feelings, and the differences between these two are > gross comparatively), and only the most differentiating wisdom can tell the > differences. If you don't have one of those, then you just have to plainly > guess, just like me! > Hi Kom, Thanks for that. We hear a lot about how book knowledge is not enough, there has to be practice. And of course, this is true but it's hard to see how we can study Dhamma without practising it. As you say in the example you give, the Dhamma student has to know kusala vipaka citta from akusala vipaka citta. No doubt, this will entail knowing kusala kamma citta from akusala kamma citta. Then it will entail knowing kusala kamma citta accompanied by panna, from kusala kamma citta unaccompanied by panna. It's hard to imagine how the Dhamma student could investigate these things without, at some stage, wisely considering the conditions pertaining here and now. (In other words, practising Dhamma.) So we're on the right track aren't we? Kind regards, Ken H 26206 From: Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 8:23am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Howard In a message dated 10/18/2003 7:12:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > It happens that the words 'concept' and 'idea' do, very occasionally, > refer to intended *referents* of thoughts rather than the thoughts > themselves, > and when that is so, these words are proper translations of 'pa~n~natti'. > However, most of the time, 'concept' and 'idea' carry the same meaning as > 'thought', and are more properly translations of 'vitakka' or 'vacara' in > these > cases. What is needed, it seems to me, is an English term that means > "intended > concept reference," but I'm not aware of such a term. If there is none such, > then > this suggests that the Pali word 'pa~n~natti' should be imported into > English. > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard That "intended concept reference" is a nice way of distinguishing it. It seems to me that whether the term concept, idea, or thinking is used, all denote a "mental construction." Seems to me in all these cases -- concept, idea, thought, -- that there is mental activity that "images" past or present experiences. The mental activity and mental image arise and cease due to conditions and are actual occurrances. The mental image "represents" something "beyond itself" and "that thing" does not arise. Personally, I don't even consider "that thing" a concept. To me, the concept is the mental image itself and thinking is the mental activity of interlacing conceptual constructions. I'll concede that the term concept points more toward mental imagery and the term thought (might) point more toward "mental constructing activity." In either case they are both mentality; arising and ceasing due to conditions. They are empty derivitives altering due to causal conditions that are also empty derivitives. To think that a concept can mean -- "intended concept reference" is in my view a flaw in understanding what a concept is. Not sure If you'll agree. I've been using the word "referent" but your phrase "intended concept referent (or reference)" is much clearer and should be incorporated into vocabulary. I will anyway. Thanks. TG 26207 From: Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 8:56am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, TG - In a message dated 10/18/03 3:24:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > That "intended concept reference" is a nice way of distinguishing it. It > seems to me that whether the term concept, idea, or thinking is used, all > denote > a "mental construction." Seems to me in all these cases -- concept, idea, > thought, -- that there is mental activity that "images" past or present > experiences. The mental activity and mental image arise and cease due to > conditions > and are actual occurrances. The mental image "represents" something "beyond > > itself" and "that thing" does not arise. Personally, I don't even consider > "that > thing" a concept. To me, the concept is the mental image itself and > thinking > is the mental activity of interlacing conceptual constructions. > > I'll concede that the term concept points more toward mental imagery and the > > term thought (might) point more toward "mental constructing activity." In > either case they are both mentality; arising and ceasing due to conditions. > They > are empty derivitives altering due to causal conditions that are also empty > derivitives. > > To think that a concept can mean -- "intended concept reference" is in my > view a flaw in understanding what a concept is. Not sure If you'll agree. > I've > been using the word "referent" but your phrase "intended concept referent > (or > reference)" is much clearer and should be incorporated into vocabulary. I > will anyway. Thanks. > > TG ========================== We understand this matter the same way, and it seems we use language in the same way. With regard to the occasional use of the word 'concept' to actually mean concept-reference, the usage is very limited, and it involves a mistaken reading. What I have in mind are such statements as "The self is concept only" (or "The self is merely a concept") and "Trees are concept only" (or "Trees are only concepts"). These locutions are, of course, not literal, but figurative. What they really mean is that while there are concepts of self and of trees, there is no self and there are no trees, per se. Unfortunately, some folks will understand such statements literally, and then one will encounter inappropriate linguistic mixings/conflations, confusing mental phenomena with their alleged referents. A native speaker of English, it seems to me, should recognize the silliness of a statement such as "The Buddha is a concept". As I see it, this entire discussion is largely a language-usage discussion posing as a Dhamma discussion! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26208 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:51pm Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: Real Reason Friend James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > As I become more settled into Cairo, I begin to reflect on the reason > I came here. Could these be the right conditions for you to further develop your Brahmaviharas? Metta, Rob M :-) 26209 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 3:53pm Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: Real Reason --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Friend James, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > As I become more settled into Cairo, I begin to reflect on the > reason > > I came here. > > Could these be the right conditions for you to further develop your > Brahmaviharas? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Hi Rob M., I would suppose so; however my goal at the moment is not quite so advanced. At the moment, I am focusing on concentration practice and daily mindfulness with the goal of more fully understanding the First Noble Truth. I am examining how my mind creates suffering by constantly jumping, in fantasy, to the past and to the future…trying to make substantial that which is impermanent. When I am able to more fully abide in the present, those fleeting moments, then I feel the peace in my heart that is usually hidden. I am systematically examining the manifestations of suffering that have dominance in my mind in gross and subtle ways. There are layers and layers of suffering to examine, and lots of `mental escape tricks' to try to cease. When I am more established in staying in the present, I believe the Brahmaviharas (Loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity) will arise naturally. I have never had much success at meditations that are supposed to create these states in a somewhat artificial way. As soon as the meditation is over, the good feeling is gone and suffering/self-centeredness comes flooding back in. I am just doing basic breath meditation…forever going back to the basics. However, I think I know what you are driving at and I do agree with you. Cairo is filled with such poverty and unhappiness that one, especially one like myself from a prosperous nation, must develop the Brahmaviharas to some extent as a natural response to the suffering. Right now I know that there are thousands of Egyptians who are hungry and can only afford basic bread and maybe a few vegetables to eat. In the US life is like a shiny amusement park; when I get out into the rest of the world that is when I really begin to see the truth of suffering, on a global and personal scale. Metta, James 26210 From: Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:08pm Subject: Vism. XIV 25 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [Regarding the 4 discriminations, meaning, law, language, perspicuity] 25. "Knowledge about enunciation of language dealing with meaning and law" (par.21): there is the language that is individual essence, the usage that has no exceptions, (9) and deals with that meaning and that law. Any knowledge falling within the category concerned with the enunciation of that, with the speaking, with the utterance of that, concerned with the root-speech of all beings, the Magadhan language that is individual essence, in other words, the language of law (dhamma), [any knowledge that] as soon as it hears it spoken, pronounced, uttered, knows, 'This is the individual-essence language; this is not the individual-essence language'--[such knowledge] is "discrimination of language".(10) [442] One who has reached the discrimination of language knows, on hearing the words 'phasso, vedanaa'. etc., that that is the individual-essence language, and on hearing 'phassaa, vedano', etc., he knows that that is not the individual-essence language. ---------------------- (9) Byabhicaara (vyabhicaara): not in P.T.S. Dict.; normal grammarian's term for an 'exception'. (10) The idea behind the term 'individual-essence language' (sabhaavanirutti), that is to say, that there is a real name for each thing that is part of that thing's individual essence, is dealt with at DhsA. 391-92. Magadhan as 'the root speech of all beings' and the 'individual-essence language' is dealt with in greater detail at VbhA. 387. 'Phasso' and 'vedanaa' as respectively masc. and fem. nom. sing. have the correct terminations. 'Phassaa' and 'vedano' are wrong. 26211 From: monomuni Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:09am Subject: On Voidness ... Friends: On Voidness (sunnata~sunyata): What is the meaning of Voidness ? The eye, visible objects & visual consciousness are Void of a self & of what belongs to a self & void of what is lasting & void of what is not subject to change & void of what is mine, pleasant & safe. The ear, sounds & auditory consciousness are Void of a self & of what belongs to a self & void of what is lasting & void of what is not subject to change & void of what is mine, pleasant & safe. The nose, smells & olfactory consciousness are Void of a self & of what belongs to a self & void of what is lasting & void of what is not subject to change & void of what is mine, pleasant & safe. The tongue, taste & gustatory consciousness are Void of a self & of what belongs to a self & void of what is lasting & void of what is not subject to change & void of what is mine, pleasant & safe. The body, touch & tactile consciousness are Void of a self & of what belongs to a self & void of what is lasting & void of what is not subject to change & void of what is mine, pleasant & safe. The mind, thought & mental consciousness is are Void of a self & of what belongs to a self & void of what is lasting & void of what is not subject to change & void of what is mine, pleasant & safe. --- What is Characteristic Voidness ? There are two kinds of characteristics: The characteristics of the fool & the characteristics of the wise man … The characteristics of the fool is void of the characteristics of the wise man … The characteristics of the wise man is void of the characteristics of the fool… --- What is Tranquil Voidness ? Through withdrawal, the absence of sensual urge is both tranquil & void. Through goodwill, the absence of ill-will is both tranquil & void. Through effort, the absence of laziness is both tranquil & void. Through calm, the absence of agitation is both tranquil & void. Through insight, the absence of doubt is both tranquil & void. --- What is Supreme Voidness ? This state is supreme, this idea is best, this state is sublime, that is to say: The stilling of all construction, the relinquishment of all substrata of being, the exhaustion of Craving, the fading away of any Greed, Ceasing, Nibbana ! --- What is Ultimate Voidness ? Here in this very same life, one who is fully aware terminates all sensual urge, he terminates any occurrence of ill will, he terminates any occurrence of sloth, he terminates any occurrence of restlessness, he terminates any occurrence of doubt, he terminates any occurrence of distraction, he terminates any occurrence of thought, he terminates any occurrence of glad & sad-ness, he terminates any occurrence of pleasure & pain, he terminates any occurrence of movement, he terminates any occurrence of perception of objects, he terminates any occurrence of perception of space, he terminates any occurrence of perception of consciousness, he terminates any occurrence of perception of nothingness, he terminates any occurrence of perception & feeling. he terminates any occurrence of eye, ear, nose, tongue, he terminates any occurrence of body & mind without arising of new occurrence of eye, ear, nose, tongue, without arising of new occurrence of body & mind. This is the element of Nibbana without trace of being left. This is the Ultimate Voidness, which is the terminating of all occurrence in the Arahat who is fully Aware … --oo0oo-- Source: The Path of Discrimination. Patisambhidamagga: The Essay on Voidness. By Sariputta. For the Gladdening of Good People. Bhikkhu Samahita , Sri Lanka http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ As a flower beautiful and brilliant of hue, but without fragrance, even so fruitless is the well-spoken word of one who does not practise it. Random Dhammapada Verse 51 26212 From: monomuni Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 7:55pm Subject: The 4 Sources ! Friends: The 4 Sources: The Generosity of Giving. The Kindness of Speech. The Benefit of Service. The Fairness of Impartiality. That is the 4 sources of Sympathy! --oo0oo-- Anguttara Nikaya II 32 : - ] bhikkhu samahita, lovely lanka http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Though a fool, through all his life, associates with a wise man, he no more understands the Dhamma than a spoon (tastes) the flavour of soup. Random Dhammapada Verse 64 26213 From: monomuni Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 8:06pm Subject: The 5 Powers ! Friends: The 5 Powers (bala): The Power of Faith is unshakable by Scepticism. The Power of Energy is unshakable by Laziness. The Power of Awareness is unshakable by Negligence. The Power of Concentration is unshakable by Distration. The Power of Understanding is unshakable by Doubt. --oo0oo-- : - ] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ The man who is not credulous, who understands the Uncreated (Nibbana), who has cut off the links, who has put an end to occasion (of good and evil), who has eschewed all desires, he indeed, is a supreme man. Random Dhammapada Verse 97 26214 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 10:03pm Subject: Brief report from Bangkok Dear All Much excitement today as the Malaysian Prime Minister arrived at our hotel to stay, on a visit to attend the APAC conference. Generally the whole city is abuzz as Pres Bush arrived yesterday (staying at the Hyatt Erawan for those of you who're familiar with Bangkok). Security is high, with airport-type scans for body and personal belongings everytime we come back to the hotel, mirrors under the car as you enter etc. This stretch of the river, which contains hotels hosting several of the delegations (including China) is awash with anti-terror squads in high-powered inflatables, helicopters passing overhead in convoy etc. Just nama and rupa and many, many stories. Are the stories real? Jon 26215 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:13am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Howard, TG and All, I would like to butt in, but hope it won't confuse matters further. Howard: > With regard to the occasional use of the word 'concept' to actually > mean concept-reference, the usage is very limited, and it involves a mistaken > reading. What I have in mind are such statements as "The self is concept only" > (or "The self is merely a concept") and "Trees are concept only" (or "Trees are > only concepts"). These locutions are, of course, not literal, but figurative. > What they really mean is that while there are concepts of self and of trees, > there is no self and there are no trees, per se. Unfortunately, some folks > will understand such statements literally, and then one will encounter > inappropriate linguistic mixings/conflations, confusing mental phenomena with their > alleged referents. A native speaker of English, it seems to me, should recognize > the silliness of a statement such as "The Buddha is a concept". As I see it, > this entire discussion is largely a language-usage discussion posing as a Dhamma > discussion! ;-) But Howard, the fact still remains that you and TG believe that pannatti *arises and falls* no? Now I don't know how close to the truth my own idea of the process is, but I think it may be a good alternative explanation for what occurs when we think that `thinking' takes place. I do not insist upon it, for few reasons, one because I am just speculating based on my very weak understanding of Abhidhamma theory. Secondly, if I am wrong, I am afraid that it might condition wrong thoughts and wrong view. And thirdly, the very fact that there is a strong tendency to attachment and `attachment to views' being one of the nastiest, I should be careful. I do not think that thoughts occur like in films, frame by frame. Take the example what goes on with regard to that which corresponds with the objects `seen'. What goes through the eye-door is only `colour'. Immediately after seeing, because every citta is accompanied by sanna, there is an automatic process of marking and simultaneous recall of what has been experienced in the past (not necessarily of the same kind as the present one). At this point vitakka and vicara together work to take in the signs and the particulars and along with sanna, in an ongoing process, forms what we *think* we think. But I believe, that even when for example we *see* the computer screen in front of us, the process is ongoing and extremely dynamic. Because of our past reliance on concepts, both the `visual' as well as the `word' that give meaning to what we recognize as computer screen, and because of the ignorance with which we have experienced these, reinforced each time by the emotional reactions we have in relation to the experience, this computer screen in front of me will seem more *real* and *static* now. [And depending on how much faith we have in the Abhidhamma, we will in turn interpret this experience as being ultimately real or unreal. :-)] In the time that it takes for a `computer screen' to be the arammana of the citta, I believe trillions of cittas have arisen and fallen. And each of these is a matter of taking cues from past experiences and from what is being experienced through the eye-door at this moment. Even though sanna marks whatever is experienced, recalling it seems, takes time. Even if we were to close our eyes now as we are looking at the monitor, you will see that it takes time for a recognizable `monitor' to appear. And I say `recognizable', because we will never have an exact reproduction. And this is due to the fact not only because ours the citta and sanna are always vipallasa, but more importantly, the experience of the "whole" involves many discrete processes, none of which can be said to involve a `pannatti' arising and falling. But only, sanna, vitakka and vicara along with other mental factors, citta and rupa arammana. Make any sense? But I will be leaving for Myanmar with the group early tomorrow and wont be able to reply to any response until after we are back. :-) Metta, Sukin. 26216 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:19am Subject: Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Victor, > Have a good time in Myanmar! Thanks, I think I will. :-) Metta, Sukin. 26217 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Dear Nina, > > Seeing, hearing etc. being > > vipaka, may be the foundation of knowledge based on 'discrimination > > of meaning', while kamma may be 'discrimination of law'??! Nina, am > > I off track? > Seeing is vipaka, it is produced by a cause, thus, seeing falls into the > category of attha, meaning or fruit, or outcome. > Kamma is under the category of cause, hetu, thus, it falls under dhamma > (transl as law). Thank you Nina. The thought is recurring, so I think I might as well ask. The four discriminations refer to very developed panna, but I wonder if there is any corresponding low level discrimination that can arise in ordinary putthujanas? I mean, that which manifests as an `interest' in dhamma and which conditions intellectual right view? :-) Metta, Sukin. 26218 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greatings from Vientiane dear Manu, This brought many memories for me, bec as a young traveller in the 70's I was in Vientiane and lost my heart and my appendix!!!! Fell in love with a Vietnamese boy and got appendicitis [but not really related to each other]. After I returned to Bkk, I had to rest a while before I continued my travels and it was during this time that someone introduced me to the late Ven. Dhammadharo who taught me about the Dhamma, and thro him I met Achan Sujin. I also met Jonathon during that time in Bkk. One never knows where one will go in this life or the ones to follow. Now I'm back in Bkk briefly before I fly to Myanmar with many of the dsg members including Achan Sujin. May we all be well and happy, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Manu Wadhwani" wrote: > Dear Peter, > > Let me introduce myself, my name is Manu Wadhwani and I live in Vientiane. > 26219 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 2:52am Subject: Terms:Howard]) - Thanks, Howard, As Plato said: "If you would converse with me, please, first, define your terms." RobertK -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > ============================== > Thank you, Robert! What you are suggesting is a move in the direction > of sticking with standard language use, and I applaud it. > It happens that the words 'concept' and 'idea' do, very occasionally, > refer to intended *referents* of thoughts rather than the thoughts themselves, > and when that is so, these words are proper translations of 'pa~n~natti'. > However, most of the time, 'concept' and 'idea' carry the same meaning as > 'thought', and are more properly translations of 'vitakka' or 'vacara' in these > cases. What is needed, it seems to me, is an English term that means "intended > concept reference," but I'm not aware of such a term. If there is none such, then > this suggests that the Pali word 'pa~n~natti' should be imported into English. > >==] 26220 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 4:24am Subject: Re: ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY CHAPTER FOUR !!!! Dear Nina Nina:" What is the sheep road?" Heheh... only a mention about the "Sheep at the Big City" animated cartoon! ------------------------------------------------------------------- N: Very good to see this. It is so natural. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes!!!!! When you manage to achieve some degree of Samatha and Ekagatta,you find that many diary tasks become more easy to perform! I am aplying these ideas just now to get a better stand at my jogging sessions!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- > N: I had a good laugh. --------------------------------------------------------------------- That was very funny, Nina!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------- > N: Yes. It reminds me that even during one bang there are already many > processes going on. Hearing in the eye-door process, like or dislike in the > same eye-door rpocess, mind-door process of cittas which only experience the > sound, after that again other processes through the mind-door which know the > origin of the sound, and think with like or dislike of it, other cittas with > coneit: I am better than my neighbour. --------------------------------------------------------------------- When I´ve read at the first time this passage years ago, this disgusted me because I found it at first glance very "mechanical" and "artificial"... but at the shooting stand I´ve really perceived that´s the way the mind processes run out: from the initial eye-door process to its end at mind conceit "Hey! Don´t shoot at me!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------- > N:" The Atthasalini gives fine details. If the tongue would not be wet you > would not taste anything." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fortunately all Tiikas have got a easy way to classificate these mind states of consciousness, almost at the Levi´s, Waite´s and Crowley´s style ! At other side, Buddhaghosa´s comments are sometimes very hard to follow up, even in german!!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: "P.S. You just copied the Tipitaka in time, because now the Tipitaka org is > off line for a while. I was too late for my Tiika!!" -------------------------------------------------------------------- I´ve copied ALL the tipitaka.org with a software called webcopier. There are others like the Webreaper, Httptrack and so on. This week you, members of these Dhamma Study Noble Society, won´t get the new chapter of ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY, because I ought to study to class examinations about Military Law and Air Force regulations and ordnances. Our class had choosed their name and Battle cry: "Hercules" - the C-130 airplane and not the immortal Kevin Sorbo´s Character!!! (I don´t think that the Hon. Kevin Sorbo could be a special guest anyway!!!!) Metta, Ícaro 26221 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 4:25am Subject: Re: ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY CHAPTER FOUR !!!! Dear Nina Nina:" What is the sheep road?" Heheh... only a mention about the "Sheep at the Big City" animated cartoon! ------------------------------------------------------------------- N: Very good to see this. It is so natural. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes!!!!! When you manage to achieve some degree of Samatha and Ekagatta,you find that many diary tasks become more easy to perform! I am aplying these ideas just now to get a better stand at my jogging sessions!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- > N: I had a good laugh. --------------------------------------------------------------------- That was very funny, Nina!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------- > N: Yes. It reminds me that even during one bang there are already many > processes going on. Hearing in the eye-door process, like or dislike in the > same eye-door rpocess, mind-door process of cittas which only experience the > sound, after that again other processes through the mind-door which know the > origin of the sound, and think with like or dislike of it, other cittas with > coneit: I am better than my neighbour. --------------------------------------------------------------------- When I´ve read at the first time this passage years ago, this disgusted me because I found it at first glance very "mechanical" and "artificial"... but at the shooting stand I´ve really perceived that´s the way the mind processes run out: from the initial eye-door process to its end at mind conceit "Hey! Don´t shoot at me!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------- > N:" The Atthasalini gives fine details. If the tongue would not be wet you > would not taste anything." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fortunately all Tiikas have got a easy way to classificate these mind states of consciousness, almost at the Levi´s, Waite´s and Crowley´s style ! At other side, Buddhaghosa´s comments are sometimes very hard to follow up, even in german!!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: "P.S. You just copied the Tipitaka in time, because now the Tipitaka org is > off line for a while. I was too late for my Tiika!!" -------------------------------------------------------------------- I´ve copied ALL the tipitaka.org with a software called webcopier. There are others like the Webreaper, Httptrack and so on. This week you, members of these Dhamma Study Noble Society, won´t get the new chapter of ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY, because I ought to study to class examinations about Military Law and Air Force regulations and ordnances. Our class had choosed their name and Battle cry: "Hercules" - the C-130 airplane and not the immortal Kevin Sorbo´s Character!!! (I don´t think that the Hon. Kevin Sorbo could be a special guest anyway!!!!) Metta, Ícaro 26222 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 4:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Victor (and All, in a PS) Thanks for setting out your thoughts. That makes it easier to have a meaningful discussion, and I would like to respond in detail when I have a chance (I have very limited access to the internet right now). On the meaning of 'more peaceful than that', where we have a difference of interpretation, I think this can only be resolved by the commentary which, as far as I know, is not available in English. So we may have to leave this point for a future occasion! Thanks for the good wishes. Take care. Jon PS to All Christine says hi to everyone. Azita, glad to hear you're in town. Looking forward to seeing you at the airport tomorrow morning --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > It seems to me that we are talking about different questions. > > Let's go back to the original question that I asked: > > Why did the Buddha teach right concentration/samma samadhi? > > To that question, I answered: > > As a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, it leads to the cessation > of dukkha. > > Now, to realize the cessation of dukkha right concentration alone > is > not sufficient. However, to realize the cessation of dukkha, right > concentration, as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, is > necessary. > > Specifically, as the Buddha taught, > > "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the > dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the > infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell > you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html 26223 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 4:45am Subject: Re:_[dsg]_ICARO´S_DHAMMA_DIARY_CHAPTER_THREE_!!!! Dear Sarah Sarah:"I really enjoy your Dhamma Diary entries;-)" ----------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks!!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" We certainly see the concentration at these moments (kusala? akusala?. > You'll have to talk to Jon about the samatha;-)" --------------------------------------------------------------------- I have got a personal viewpoint about this: The act of concentration at this own side is really kusala. The outer manifestation of these concentration - as an external and concrete act or as a mind-phala - is akusala. Anyway, corrections are welcome! Samatha - as I see it - is always kusala! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" p.s Icaro, I'm thinking of you as I pack - also having trouble trying to > stick to the basics;-)" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Indeed! Just for now I haven´t got any time to write the next chapter of ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY - I must study all that issues and ordnances of Air Force laws and regulations!!!! Our Air Force Class had finally choosed their name and Battle Cry - "Hercules!!!" - a mention about the famous C-130 airplane and not (Unfortunately!!!) the immortal Kevin Sorbo´s character! Amd - as I´ve already posted to Nina - I don´t think that the Hon. Kevin Sorbo could be our special guest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 26224 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 5:37am Subject: Re: ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY CHAPTER FOUR !!!! Dear Norakat Norakat:" Hi icaro, > > Please don't take offence to my question but ..." --------------------------------------------------------------- No problem, Norakat! --------------------------------------------------------------- Norakat:" Why would a Buddhist put himself in the position to possibly (very > possibly), in the future, kill another being (or many, many other > beings) at the orders of a superior ???" ------------------------------------------------------------- I won´t stress this issue about imperative duties - moral ones or otherwise. Siddartha Gautama was formerly a Kshatria, a member of the Hindu Warrior Pride. No one could feel and know the hardness of a military life better than He did it: the World IS Dukkha and till the blessed day of taking the Bhikkhu´s vows, the average human being is really chained up at the Samsara wheel: killing and being killed, faint pleasures and deep suffering, etc, all these affairs are spinning around the same axle. As a soldier I only pray to never, never, never take off my gun to harm another being... and sometimes you can take out all your life as a private, sergeant or officer without do it! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Norakat:" ...mind you the motives for having to kill could be rooted in the > most unwholesome nature (if not always unwholesome), i.e. not for the > reason for self defence of a country. > > what about sila ?" ------------------------------------------------------------------- Nori, killing other beings is always akusala: for self-defence or for your country´s duty. Since you get the consciousness of having a right perception, right thoughts and perhaps the trends of right actions about these questions, you begin to catch the first glimpses of Sila. I don´t believe in Kamma Determinism: killing other being as a soldier doesn´t transfer the responsability of this act for your superior officer - it´s a personal affair between Reality and your illusory ego, and only taking the firm decision to reach the other shore - the Nibbana - will divert the Kammic consequences (if any) of hitting your life. At the last end, it´s all in your mind. Mettaya, Ícaro 26225 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavanga Dear Lynn, I appreciate the interest of your group in the Abhidhamma. Rob M answered your question and I could add a few remarks. op 17-10-2003 03:42 schreef Lynn Cohen op lynn.cohen@b...: Does this stream of bhavanga > that continues on from life (understanding that it arises and falls away in > the present moment) to life hold all the karmic seeds from our past lives like > a sort of reservoir of information? N: Some people translate bhavangacitta as subconsciousness, and then it seems as if it could remain and store experiences. As Rob M. explained this is not the case. The bhavanga-citta arises and falls away, but it keeps the continuity in the life of an individual. Our life is an unbroken series of cittas, and each citta that falls away conditions the next citta, by way of contiguity condition. The bhavangacitta arises in between processes of citta and in this way there never is a gap between cittas. Youu would die without citta. The stream of life goes on and on. Kamma committed in the past, even many lives ago, falls away, but since kamma is mental, its force is accumulated from moment to moment, from life to live. When there are the right condiitons it can produce result later on. You can also notice that what you learnt is remembered later on, and that habits formed in the past, different inclinations, condition different types of citta at the present. This occurs because there is contiguity-condiiton, each citta is succeeded by a following citta. In conventional language we speak of people who have different characters. This is actually due to differences in accumulated tendencies and inclinations. A process that goes on from moment to moment. Thus, each citta falls away but there is a connection of past to present and again from present to the future. I hope this clarifies somewhat. I am looking forward to more input from your group, Nina. 26226 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paramattha dhammas Hi Larry, op 17-10-2003 23:18 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I disagree that cittas are born. Only babies are born. This is the > correct use of these words. N: Certainly, babies are born. We say that in daily speech. But we have to study the context and see how born, jaata, is used in the Abhidhammic sense. We spoke about conventional death and momentray death of each citta. In the same way there is birth both in conventional sense, this is dukkha, as well as momentary birth of each nama and rupa, birth of the khandhas, and here we can learn to understand the deepest sense of dukkha. Let us look at the Vis. text again, 24 c: (c) 'Knowledge about whatever things are born, become, brought to birth, produced, completed, made manifest, is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the things from which those things were born, became, were brought to birth, produced, completed, made manifest, is the "discrimination of law"... N: Remember, things is the translation of dhammas. Born: jaata: in PED: born, grown, arisen, produced, become, occurred, happened. Surely the discrimination of law, dhamma, concerns paramattha dhammas, not conventional realities. This whole passage concerns paramattha dhammas. The Buddha also speaks about nibbana as that which is not-born, and surely this means: what is unconditioned. Whatever is born or arises, does so because there are the appropriate conditions. It is conditioned. L:I agree that everything in abhidhamma points > to the present moment. N: Yes, the Abhidhamma really helps us to understand our life at this very moment. Nina. 26227 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 6:50am Subject: FW: Commentary mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 18 B Commentary mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 18 B 18 B: Cross reference to the Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M 28), Part I. The Commentary to the Mahaaraahulovaada sutta states: The Commentary stated before: In the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" the four great Elements are explained in detail by Sariputta. First he teaches the four noble Truths. All kusala dhammas are included in (come together in) the four noble truths: He then explains what dukkha is, ending with: in short, the five khandhas of clinging are dukkha: . Sariputta explained in detail about the four great elements of earth, water, fire and wind. They are the basis for all the other derived material phenomena. For example, colour could not arise alone, it has to be together with these four great elements. And so it is with sound and all other material phenomena. The elements of earth (hardness or softness), fire (heat or cold) and wind (motion or pressure) can be experienced by touch, but the element of water, cohesion, can only be experienced through the mind. This sutta reminds us that there is hardness (earth) in the body, but also outside. When we touch hardness there is no difference, but we do not like to hear this. We find the body very special. Rahula was clinging so much to his body (attaabhaava), but he had to develop vipassanaa pa~n~naa, to realize that there is not the whole body; that what we take for my body are only different elements which fall away immediately. In the ³Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint² Sariputta spoke about the impermanence of outward rupas by explaining about the calamities in nature. Evenso the rupas of the body are impermanent, they fall away immediately. As we have read in the Commentary to the Mahaaraahulovaada sutta: Rahula had to develop understanding not only of materiality, ruupa, but also of mental phenomena, naama, of all five khandhas. When we take them all as a whole, there is the idea of a person. Hearing is naama, a citta that experiences sound, it is not the ruupa that is sound, it is no the ruupa that is earsense. Understanding this, not only by reflection, but by direct understanding of the characteristics of the elements as they appear one at a time must lead to detachment. Clinging to the idea of "I, mine" can decrease. As we read in the Mahaarahulovaadasutta: Nina. 26228 From: Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 3:14am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Sukin (and TG, Ken, and all) - In a message dated 10/19/03 4:13:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Hi Howard, TG and All, > > I would like to butt in, but hope it won't confuse matters further. > > Howard: > > With regard to the occasional use of the word 'concept' to > actually > >mean concept-reference, the usage is very limited, and it involves > a mistaken > >reading. What I have in mind are such statements as "The self is > concept only" > >(or "The self is merely a concept") and "Trees are concept only" > (or "Trees are > >only concepts"). These locutions are, of course, not literal, but > figurative. > >What they really mean is that while there are concepts of self and > of trees, > >there is no self and there are no trees, per se. Unfortunately, > some folks > >will understand such statements literally, and then one will > encounter > >inappropriate linguistic mixings/conflations, confusing mental > phenomena with their > >alleged referents. A native speaker of English, it seems to me, > should recognize > >the silliness of a statement such as "The Buddha is a concept". As > I see it, > >this entire discussion is largely a language-usage discussion > posing as a Dhamma > >discussion! ;-) > > But Howard, the fact still remains that you and TG believe that > pannatti *arises and falls* no? > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: But, as I see it, that depends entirely on what is meant by 'pa~n~natti'. If by that is meant certain mental phenomena, mental activities, that I (and most speakers of English, I think) call "thoughts," then, yes, I believe that they arise and fall, that is, that they do come into and go out of phenomenal existence as do sights, sounds, feelings, volitions, etc. If, on the other hand, by 'pa~n~natti' you mean things like computer screens, I do not believe they ever exist except figuratively - in a manner of speaking. It does *appear*, however, that computer screens literally exist. That delusive appearing is mental projection and reification. Having said this, there is really little else for me to say on this, with the exception that I do find the semi-detailed description you provide in the following on concept formation to be apparently quite well stated. [I'm not in a position to adequately evaluate, being neither an Abhidhammika nor a psychologist.] With metta, Howard > Now I don't know how close to the truth my own idea of the process > is, but I think it may be a good alternative explanation for what > occurs when we think that `thinking' takes place. I do not insist > upon it, for few reasons, one because I am just speculating based on > my very weak understanding of Abhidhamma theory. Secondly, if I am > wrong, I am afraid that it might condition wrong thoughts and wrong > view. And thirdly, the very fact that there is a strong tendency to > attachment and `attachment to views' being one of the nastiest, I > should be careful. > > I do not think that thoughts occur like in films, frame by frame. > Take the example what goes on with regard to that which corresponds > with the objects `seen'. What goes through the eye-door is > only `colour'. Immediately after seeing, because every citta is > accompanied by sanna, there is an automatic process of marking and > simultaneous recall of what has been experienced in the past (not > necessarily of the same kind as the present one). At this point > vitakka and vicara together work to take in the signs and the > particulars and along with sanna, in an ongoing process, forms what > we *think* we think. > But I believe, that even when for example we *see* the computer > screen in front of us, the process is ongoing and extremely dynamic. > Because of our past reliance on concepts, both the `visual' as well > as the `word' that give meaning to what we recognize as computer > screen, and because of the ignorance with which we have experienced > these, reinforced each time by the emotional reactions we have in > relation to the experience, this computer screen in front of me will > seem more *real* and *static* now. [And depending on how much faith > we have in the Abhidhamma, we will in turn interpret this experience > as being ultimately real or unreal. :-)] > In the time that it takes for a `computer screen' to be the arammana > of the citta, I believe trillions of cittas have arisen and fallen. > And each of these is a matter of taking cues from past experiences > and from what is being experienced through the eye-door at this > moment. Even though sanna marks whatever is experienced, recalling > it seems, takes time. Even if we were to close our eyes now as we > are looking at the monitor, you will see that it takes time for a > recognizable `monitor' to appear. And I say `recognizable', because > we will never have an exact reproduction. And this is due to the > fact not only because ours the citta and sanna are always vipallasa, > but more importantly, the experience of the "whole" involves many > discrete processes, none of which can be said to involve > a `pannatti' arising and falling. But only, sanna, vitakka and > vicara along with other mental factors, citta and rupa arammana. > > Make any sense? > > But I will be leaving for Myanmar with the group early tomorrow and > wont be able to reply to any response until after we are back. :-) > > Metta, > Sukin. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26229 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, No problem. Regarding the difference in interpretation in the phrase 'something more peaceful than that', let's leave it like that for now. I look forward to your response in detail. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor (and All, in a PS) [snip] 26230 From: Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paramattha dhammas Nina: "Surely the discrimination of law, dhamma, concerns paramattha dhammas, not conventional realities." Hi Nina, I disagree. It looks to me that discrimination of cause and effect (dhamma and attha) concerns both paramattha dhammas and conventional realties, or, to put it another way, basic and complex arisings. Larry 26231 From: Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 2:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 25 Hi all, It seems that the knowledge about the speaking of language concerning cause and effect ("dhamma" & "attha") is concerned with vocal intimation. In other words, elocution. In a context of reading and writing, elocution is meaningless, but in a context of speaking and listening it is very important. Here are a couple of snippets I was able to scratch together concerning elocution as taught by Chogyam Trungpa, a Tibetan master who taught elocution as an empowerment of speech: Speaking the Queen's Anglish "If you are talking to a bank manager or a lawyer, they will believe you if you speak properly. If a policeman is about to give you a speeding ticket, if you speak to him properly, he might not give you the ticket!" "Chogyam Trungpa encouraged his students to speak mindfully and discover the living essence of words. He delighted in teaching elocution, or speech training, based on the pronunciation of English as spoken at Oxford University in England." "Developing a proper relationship with speech and overcoming laziness and hesitation in the way we use language. Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, who transmitted this practice,said, "Each word that we speak should be regarded as a gem. When we speak or talk, we should regard words as tangible rather than as pure sound." Larry -------------------- ps: Nina, I think "individual-essence language" as well as Magadhan as 'the root speech of all beings' is meant to be taken figuratively but I ran into some confusion on the reality status of bodily and vocal intimation. On page 241 in CMA it says b & v intimation is unconditioned (not a paramatta dhamma) because it isn't produced directly from the 4 main causes of matter: kamma, consciousness, temperature, and nutriment. But on page 247 it says consciousness produces bodily and vocal intimation. So which is it? Is vocal intimation produced (sankhata) or unproduced (asankhata)? And how does that coordinate with "individual-essence language"? L. 26232 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 8:38pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 31 - 38 for comment Cittas in a "Thought Process" Slide Contents ============== Life-Continuum ("Subconscious"): Beautiful Resultant Citta Adverting / Eye-Consciousness / Receiving / Investigating / Determining (What We Experience): Rootless Resultant Cittas (slightly simplified) Javana (Creating Kamma): Unwholesome or Wholesome Registration (Link to Next Thought): Rootless Resultant Cittas Speaker Notes ============= Let us go through the stages of a thought process, according to the Abhidhamma. Between thought processes, the mind is in a "subconscious state". As mentioned in the previous slide, for humans, this is beautiful resultant mental state. When a visible object impinges on the eye, there are a number of mental states that arise in succession. These are rootless resultant mental states. These mental states do not create kamma, they are the result of some past kamma. Next are the javana mental states; these are the mental states that create unwholesome or wholesome kamma. The javana mental states are the active part of the thought process. This is where emotions arise. Finally, there are some registration cittas to provide continuity of the process with the next thought process. Under the Mango Tree Slide Contents ============== At the foot of a mango tree, a man is sleeping with his head covered. Wind strikes the tree. Branches sway with the wind. A fruit falls beside the sleeping man. ("Subconscious") The man awakes. The man removes his head covering. The man picks up the fruit. The man inspects the fruit. The man understands that this is a fruit with certain qualities. (What we Experience) The man eats the fruit. (Creating Kamma; action) The man notes the aftertaste. (Link to Next Thought) Speaker Notes ============= The commentary gives an analogy of how the thought process works. "Subconscious": The sleeping man is the subconscious mind. What we Experience: This is the stage when the mind takes in an object presented to it and decides what to do. Creating Kamma: This is the active portion of the thought process. Link to Next Thought: Finally the registration portion. 26233 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 8:55pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Victor, Thanks for this message. Although slow to respond, I have been thinking about it. --------------- V: > I think I can understand your frustration about how to meditate. But please don't give up. ---------------- Thanks again. Actually, being frustrated with meditation was never the issue. In fact, I used to be quite happy with it. When I first started looking for other Buddhists on the internet, I was hoping I could teach someone what I had learnt. But I found dsg and my meditation days were over. :-) ----------------- V: > Keep trying and verify your own practice with what the Buddha taught. ----------------- This is the crux of the matter. If I could quote your previous message to me in full: "I think it would be helpful if the discussion is focused on what the Buddha taught." Before we can know what the Buddha taught -- even the basic outlines -- we have to learn something we don't already know. Having chosen one school of Buddhism, we should learn what that school teaches whether we like it or not. I have chosen the Theravada school -- as found in the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries. You, it seems, reject some of those texts -- "pernicious views," you call them. I can't criticise you for that nor can I claim any moral high ground. Who knows what I would have done if, like you, I had found some of those texts untenable. In principle, however, it is best if we can faithfully study one chosen school of Buddhism regardless of our predilections and biases. After establishing exactly what that school teaches, we can make an informed decision: continue with that tradition or reject it and try another one. In any event, it would be silly to go it alone. We must be prepared to learn something we don't already know -- something that is contrary to our old, cherished opinions. If we select bits of text from here and there, according to what seems right to us, [and virtually start our own Buddhist tradition], then we will learn nothing. We will just reinforce the same, wrong views we started with. -------------- V: > Again, follow what the Buddha taught in Anapanasati Sutta and keep trying. -------------- I would like to understand the Anapanasati Sutta. From what I already understand, mindfulness of breathing is, for me, the least appropriate of all Buddhist practices. Dsg friends have pointed to textual explanations of that particular sutta. If I understand correctly, it describes the highest form of practice -- suited only to the greatest minds in the universe. Of all the Buddha's disciples who attained enlightenment, only an elite few did so by practising mindfulness of breathing. ------------ V: > Verify your own practice with what the Buddha taught in Anapanasati Sutta, as well as what the Buddha taught on what right concentration is. Do you know how to ride a bicycle?? If you do, how did you learn it? ------------ I said before that I am not taking the moral high ground; so I don't mean to sound judgemental when I talk about 'slandering the Buddha:' I think you will remember the sutta Mike quoted in which 'slandering the Buddha' was described. If a person says that a certain teaching of the Buddha does not need further explanation when, in fact, it does need further explanation, then that person slanders the Buddha. If a person says a teaching of the Buddha does need further explanation when, in fact, it does not, then that person slanders the Buddha. So what [if anything], are we to say about mindfulness of breathing? I tend to think it needs more explanation than anything else. If, anywhere in the suttas, the Buddha refers briefly to mindfulness of breathing [or to development of right concentration], then that seems definitely to be a lesson where further explanation is required. I would not promote the view that it was simple and self-explanatory, like bike riding. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 26234 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Egypt Diary: Real Reason Dear James, I really appreciate your diaries. Life was not easy, and as you wrote, you were sick several times. And that in a strange country. But you make the most of it, taking more time for reading and considering. I hope your health is better now. You write,< I really begin to see the truth of suffering, on a global and personal scale.> I like what you write here, it is good to consider the teachings on different levels. Another level:seeing dukkha also on a momentary scale. This is really difficult, a long way to go. We know merely intellectually that since each moment falls away, no matter pleasant or unpleasant, nothing is worth clinging to. But this is not enough. Nina. op 19-10-2003 00:53 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > In the US life is like a shiny amusement park; when I get out into > the rest of the world that is when I really begin to see the truth of > suffering, on a global and personal scale. 26235 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Dear Sukin, op 19-10-2003 10:30 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > The four > discriminations refer to very developed panna, but I wonder if there > is any corresponding low level discrimination that can arise in > ordinary putthujanas? I mean, that which manifests as an `interest' > in dhamma and which conditions intellectual right view? :-) N: I do not think there is a low level discrimination for us ordinary putthujanas. We can only read about them and admire and appreciate the high degree of wisdom of those who had these discriminations. Nina. P.S. Looking forward to hear your personal impressions about Myanmar. 26236 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greatings from Vientiane Dear Azita, What an interesting life story I did not know. Please, when you have returned, tell your personal impressions about Myanmar. Nina. op 19-10-2003 10:50 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > One never knows where one will go in this life or the ones to follow. > Now I'm back in Bkk briefly before I fly to Myanmar with many of the > dsg members including Achan Sujin. 26237 From: Lynn Cohen Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:24pm Subject: bhavanga Hi Nina and Rob, Thankyou both for shedding light on the bhavanga citta, it is most appreciated. I have made copies of these answers which I will read tomorrow night to our group. Now the initial contact has been made, I am sure there will be more questions! With Metta , Lynn 26238 From: connie Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 10:07pm Subject: Path of Purification Thank you, Christine ~ The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational Foundation 11F, 55Hang Chow South Road Sec 1, Taipei, Taiwan, ROC (http://www.budaedu.org overseas@b...) sent me a copy of The Path of Purification! I trust you all are having great discussions. A few of us went up to the Tibetan retreat center near here today and helped one of the monks hang a series of pictures of Jataka tales, and I wondered if the V one was there, but didn't ask. peace, connie 26239 From: Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 6:41pm Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Ken (and Victor) - In a message dated 10/20/03 12:09:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Victor, > > Thanks for this message. Although slow to respond, I > have been thinking about it. > > --------------- > V: >I think I can understand your frustration about how > to meditate. But please don't give up. > ---------------- > > Thanks again. Actually, being frustrated with meditation > was never the issue. In fact, I used to be quite happy > with it. When I first started looking for other Buddhists > on the internet, I was hoping I could teach someone what I > had learnt. > > But I found dsg and my meditation days were over. :-) > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Shhh, Ken! Someone might be listening! (Are you sure you want to really come right out and declare that? ;-) --------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > V: >Keep trying and verify your own practice with what > the Buddha taught. > ----------------- > > This is the crux of the matter. If I could quote your > previous message to me in full: > > "I think it would be helpful if the discussion is > focused on what the Buddha taught." > > > Before we can know what the Buddha taught -- even the > basic outlines -- we have to learn something we don't > already know. Having chosen one school of Buddhism, we > should learn what that school teaches whether we like it > or not. I have chosen the Theravada school -- as found > in the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries. > > You, it seems, reject some of those texts -- "pernicious > views," you call them. I can't criticise you for that > nor can I claim any moral high ground. Who knows what I > would have done if, like you, I had found some of those > texts untenable. > > In principle, however, it is best if we can faithfully > study one chosen school of Buddhism regardless of our > predilections and biases. After establishing exactly > what that school teaches, we can make an informed > decision: continue with that tradition or reject it and > try another one. > > In any event, it would be silly to go it alone. We must > be prepared to learn something we don't already know -- > something that is contrary to our old, cherished > opinions. If we select bits of text from here and there, > according to what seems right to us, [and virtually start > our own Buddhist tradition], then we will learn nothing. > We will just reinforce the same, wrong views we started > with. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, do you remember the story of the man impaled by the arrow??? You might consider rereading it! Also, it might be useful to recall that extremes are not always beneficial. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > V: >Again, follow what the Buddha taught in Anapanasati > Sutta and keep trying. > -------------- > > I would like to understand the Anapanasati Sutta. From > what I already understand, mindfulness of breathing is, > for me, the least appropriate of all Buddhist practices. > > Dsg friends have pointed to textual explanations of that > particular sutta. If I understand correctly, it > describes the highest form of practice -- suited only to > the greatest minds in the universe. Of all the Buddha's > disciples who attained enlightenment, only an elite few > did so by practising mindfulness of breathing. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: How ironic, then, that the Anapanasati Sutta and the Satipatthana Sutta are probably the two most important suttas to the greatest number of Buddhists throughout the world. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------ > V: >Verify your own practice with what the Buddha taught > in Anapanasati Sutta, as well as what the Buddha taught > on what right concentration is. > > Do you know how to ride a bicycle?? If you do, how did > you learn it? > ------------ > > I said before that I am not taking the moral high ground; > so I don't mean to sound judgemental when I talk about > 'slandering the Buddha:' I think you will remember the > sutta Mike quoted in which 'slandering the Buddha' was > described. If a person says that a certain teaching of > the Buddha does not need further explanation when, in > fact, it does need further explanation, then that person > slanders the Buddha. If a person says a teaching of the > Buddha does need further explanation when, in fact, it > does not, then that person slanders the Buddha. > > So what [if anything], are we to say about mindfulness of > breathing? I tend to think it needs more explanation > than anything else. If, anywhere in the suttas, the > Buddha refers briefly to mindfulness of breathing [or to > development of right concentration], then that seems > definitely to be a lesson where further explanation is > required. I would not promote the view that it was > simple and self-explanatory, like bike riding. :-) > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: One thing the Buddha certainly did was to recommend meditation to his followers, again and again and again. And what he recommended to them most of all, was samatha meditation, a form of meditation well known, easy to practice at least in its most basic form, and it was the primary sort of formal meditative cultivation of the mind he gave. The commentaries, which seem to impress you considerably, go into much detail on subjects for samatha meditation, including the breath, BTW. In the Majhima Nikaya, the Buddha encourages his followers repeatedly to practice seated meditation and to master the jhanas. He makes it clear that this makes the mind a malleable, fit tool, for investigation of dhammas. Why should one of the things most often praised and recommended by the Buddha be avoided like the plague? (Just a rhetorical question, Ken. ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26240 From: Manu Wadhwani Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 10:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: new member Dear Rob: I appreciate your posts very much. They are concise, to the point and easy to understand. You wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "robmoult" To: Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 5:33 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: new member > ====== > > Yes, unfortunately, butchers do accumulate bad kamma throughout > their lives. > > However, it is more serious if they are ignorant of the 'wrong' in > what they do. To illustrate this point, consider who gets burned > more seriously when touching a hot iron rod; he who knows in advance > that it is hot or he who has no idea that it is hot. > > I understand that the above example is from Milindapa~nha. I have always been uncomfortable with it. Normally, a person who knows that he is committing wrong should bear greater responsibility as compared to a person who does not know that he is committing any wrong. The above example seems to suggest that a lay Buddhist would accumulate less bad kamma when he drinks alcohol as compared to someone else just because the lay Buddhist knows in advance that it is wrong to drink. Always looking forward to read your posts. Warmest regards, Manu 26241 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 0:33am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Ken, No problem. Even with your reply, I would still encourage you not to give up meditating. I would still encourage you to keep practicing. I wonder why you gave up meditating if you were happy about it. To me, you did not sound you were happy about it in your last message. I choose to learn what the Buddha taught, and I find that the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka in the Pali Canon of the Theravada Tradition preserve the record of the Buddha's teaching. It is the Buddha's teaching that I choose to learn, not the teaching of a particular Buddhist school or tradition. Regarding the Theravada Buddhism, I respect it as a tradition in preserving the record of the Buddha's teaching. Regarding mindfulness of breathing, I would not say that it is the least appropriate of all Buddhist practices. In fact, I understand that this is what the Buddha said regarding mindfulness of breathing: "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html I don't see that the view "mindfulness of breathing is the least appropriate of all Buddhist practices", as well as the rationale for that view, can be inferred from what the Buddha said in the passage above. I don't see that both the view and its rationale can be inferred from what the Buddha taught in general. However, even if I don't have that view as you do, at least we can both agree with what the Buddha said in the passage above. So I encourage you to follow what the Buddha taught in Anapanasati Sutta and verify your practice with the Buddha's teaching. I don't see that encouragement is a slander to the Buddha in anyway. Regarding riding bicycle, I wanted to remind you that a lot of learning, whether learning a simple or complex skill, is achieved through trying and practicing. One could say that one of the skills in riding a bicycle is keeping balance while moving. How exactly should one keep balance while moving? That skill, or the sense of balance, is an experiential knowledge that can only be acquired by actually getting on a bicycle and trying. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Thanks for this message. Although slow to respond, I > have been thinking about it. [snip] 26242 From: robmoult Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 0:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: new member Hi Manu, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Manu Wadhwani" wrote: > > Yes, unfortunately, butchers do accumulate bad kamma throughout > > their lives. > > > > However, it is more serious if they are ignorant of the 'wrong' in > > what they do. To illustrate this point, consider who gets burned > > more seriously when touching a hot iron rod; he who knows in advance > > that it is hot or he who has no idea that it is hot. > > > > > I understand that the above example is from Milindapa~nha. I have always > been uncomfortable with it. Normally, a person who knows that he is > committing wrong should bear greater responsibility as compared to a person > who does not know that he is committing any wrong. > > The above example seems to suggest that a lay Buddhist would accumulate less > bad kamma when he drinks alcohol as compared to someone else just because > the lay Buddhist knows in advance that it is wrong to drink. Understanding Buddhist Ethics requires a slight shift in perspective. Modern society measures quality of actions predominantly by the impact they have on our surroundings. With kamma, we focus on the effect of actions on ourselves (agents of actions). According to Buddhism, the "quality" (good / bad) of an action depends on roots; bad things are rooted in greed, aversion and delusion. Good things are rooted in their non-greed, non-aversion and wisdom. The kammic weight or "seriousness" of an action depends on the level of volition / intention. Imagine a lay Buddhist who knows that it is wrong to kill animals and who knows why it is wrong to kill animals. If, for whatever reason, this person kills animals, they are more likely to do so with relatively weak volition / intention. This will have a weak result. Imagine another person who does not know that it is wrong to kill animals. When this person kills animals, it is possible that they do so with strong volition. This will have a strong result. I have changed the example from "drinking alcohol" to "killing animals" because it is easier to link this to the underlying roots. According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, "The fifth precept differs from the preceding four in that the others directly involve a man's relation to his fellow beings while this precept ostensibly deals solely with a person's relation to himself -- to his own body and mind. Thus whereas the first four precepts clearly belong to the moral sphere, a question may arise whether this precept is really ethical in character or merely hygienic. The answer is that it is ethical, for the reason that what a person does to his own body and mind can have a decisive effect on his relations to his fellow men. Taking intoxicants can influence the ways in which a man interacts with others, leading to the violation of all five precepts. Under the influence of intoxicants a man who might otherwise be restrained can lose self-control, become heedless, and engage in killing, stealing, adultery, and lying. Abstinence from intoxicants is prescribed on the grounds that it is essential to the self-protection of the individual and for establishing the well-being of family and society. The precept thus prevents the misfortunes that result from the use of intoxicants: loss of wealth, quarrels and crimes, bodily disease, loss of reputation, shameless conduct, negligence, and madness." Hope this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 26243 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 2:20am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Thanks for this message. Although slow to respond, I > have been thinking about it. > > --------------- > V: > I think I can understand your frustration about how > to meditate. But please don't give up. > ---------------- > > Thanks again. Actually, being frustrated with meditation > was never the issue. In fact, I used to be quite happy > with it. When I first started looking for other Buddhists > on the internet, I was hoping I could teach someone what I > had learnt. > > But I found dsg and my meditation days were over. :-) Hi Ken, I think that both Howard and Victor have given you excellent responses to your doubts about meditation (if Howard ever forms a cult, I think I would be the first to join! I love his posts! ;-), but I just wanted to add a little something else that neither one of them mention. Having doubts about the practice of mindfulness of breathing is quite natural and expected; it is one of the five hindrances that the Buddha taught would occur with all meditation practitioners. This is a tendency of the mind to try to stop the practice in any way possible because it wants to defend the ego. However, when this doubt arises one should continue the practice, as Victor suggests, until the doubt subsides. Like everything, it will subside. I also have had serious doubts about the effectiveness of meditation, and my ability to practice it properly, but then I remember that my mind is just telling me that it is impossible and ineffective so that I will stop. The wrong thing to do when you encounter these doubts is to seek out other people with the same doubts and form a `meditation doubting group'. Talk about enabling! If you choose not to meditate, okay; that is your choice. I would just suggest that you be aware of the true reason you have made that choice rather than to blame the practice. Metta, James 26244 From: bodhi342 Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Hello RobertK, Thanks for your response, and good to be exchanging ideas with you again. Let me be totally clear: my questions are about exclusivity rather than faith. Allowing for other possible courses does not have to impact on one's own faith about a particular course to be followed. Are you not somewhat disturbed when some find it necessary to negate the faith of others, just to shore up their own? What is the foundation of such a 'confidence' that requires the demolishing of others? The questions were NOT about the Buddha or others in the past. We can only speculate about so much that is 'known' about historical teachers. What information they had or did not have, how they evaluated it, against what background etc. If we are truly honest, we would categorize much of that under belief, until it is verifiable. Our focus here should be on the categorical assertions of present day 'true believers'. We have a much better idea about the information now available to most people. To be able to reject other claims of having realized the ultimate reality by slightly different paths, there should be more than just a pedantic reading of hearsay. Have these 'defenders' beome omniscient soon after stepping on a chosen path? Your quote from the Mahaparinnibbana sutta addresses people on the path to becoming arahats, but not specifically about nibbana itself: > The Buddha explained in the Mahaparinnibbana sutta that: "in this > Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, is found the Noble Eightfold Path; > and in it alone are also found true ascetics of the first, second, > third, and fourth degrees of saintliness. Devoid of true ascetics > are the systems of other teachers". Do we clearly understand the parameters of these assertions? IF following the Noble Eightfold Path is taken to define where one could find the 'true ascetics', then of course one could not find 'true ascetics', so defined, elsewhere. Other teachers would, by definition, be devoid of such 'true ascetics'. QED? Also, what other teachers are being referred to? Those in the locale that the Buddha was familiar with? The rest of the world? At that time, in the past, in the future? Let's say that the Sherpas who lived during the seventeenth century C.E. knew of no others who had climbed to mountaintops for the 'ultimate view'. Are they correct? Yes, but only within the parameters of the Sherpa's own knowledge. Therefore no need to ascribe arrogance or conceit. If however, 400 years later, a present day Sherpa, with knowledge of other claims of mountain climbing elsewhere, persists in this view, then what are we to make of him/her? Is it unreasonable to consider arrogance and conceit to explain such an atavistic view? > If the Buddha was wrong and there are other teachers who teach the > path to arahantship would he be worthy of the title Buddha? Was he > conceited? Yes, he definitely would be worthy of the title Buddha - since that is based on his own rare qualities, not whether others may have also found their own paths. As I said, this is not about faith in the Buddha's path, but about rejecting the possibility of other paths at this time. I have addressed the second question in the paras above, and respectfully decline the offer either to sidetrack or blaspheme ;-) We have to be careful not to accept invalid assumptions taken as dogma. When the edicts about how women should be treated were discussed a few months ago, many agreed that we had to view those teachings according to the prevailing standards of those times, and they do not apply to the present. Surely, we should exercise similar good judgment about other issues that may have to be looked at in a different light, given information not available then, but available now to open minds everywhere. There are wise exhortations 'not to compare' on dsg, yet when it comes to this topic there is a strange silence - a tacit agreement with exclusivity? Everyone is entitled their own haven of certitude. What they are (hopefully) not entitled to is to deny the existence of other havens when no thorough exploration has been made up and down the philosophical/experiential coast. To explicitly or implicitly condone such self-centered, unsubstantiated views, is possibly a dangerous support along the path to bigotry. At least this seems to be the case with some other faiths, each of which may suggest that they are indeed the only true path. Elevating our chosen path does not necessarily require consigning all others to the dustbin. Tacitly accepting this type of conceit is also not altogether blameless. metta, dharam 26245 From: bodhi342 Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 7:22am Subject: Re: nibbana Dear Nina, Thanks for your kind words - it is good to be conversing with you again. I appreciate your diplomatic, patient and gentle approach to the problem of path exclusivity. As I wrote to RobertK, we may have to be very careful about the parameters and context of teachings as time goes by. This is not to argue that they are faulty, but rather to be open to the possibility that they were specifically tailored to the prevailing situation, and post-hoc extrapolation is as risky in this, as in other matters. From the little I know of the Buddha, I believe he would have encouraged a clear-eyed appraisal of the facts that are available, instead of dogmatic obedience. Perhaps he himself sensed the probability that his own words would be progressively misunderstood as time went by. Not because they are untrue, but because the ability of later learners to understand the context becomes progressively compromised. Also, because other factors become apparent as time goes by. Neither of these invalidate his exquisite insights. However, they make it all the more important to recognize those instances of conceit mistaken as faith when they occur now. metta, dharam 26246 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:16am Subject: Tiika Vis. 22 Vis. 22: 22. Herein, "meaning" (attha) is briefly a term for the fruit of a cause (hetu). For in accordance with the cause it is served, arrived at, reached, therefore it is called 'meaning' (or 'purpose'). But in particular the five things, namely, (i) anything conditionally produced, [441] (ii) nibbana, (iii) the meaning of what is spoken, (iv) (kamma-) result, and (v) functional (consciousness), should be understood as "meaning". When anyone reviews that meaning, any knowledge of his, falling within the category (pabheda) concerned with meaning, is the "discrimination of meaning". 22. tattha atthoti sa"nkhepato hetuphalasseta.m adhivacana.m. hetuphala.m hi yasmaa hetuanusaarena ariyati adhigamiyati sampaapu.niyati, tasmaa atthoti vuccati. pabhedato pana ya.m ki~nci paccayasambhuuta.m, nibbaana.m, bhaasitattho, vipaako, kiriyaati ime pa~nca dhammaa atthoti veditabbaa. ta.m attha.m paccavekkhantassa tasmi.m atthe pabhedagata.m ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. Tiika 22: words: sampaapaka: leading to anusaarena: in accordance with dahati: necessitate vidahati: contrive, arrange nibbattati; to arise, to be rpoduced nibbattaka: producing bhaajaniya: division nibbacana: word derivation. sampaapunati: to reach, to attain adigacchati: to attain saadhara.na: general. common. bhaasita: spoken avabodhati: perceive, pay attention to Tiika22. nibbaanampi sampaapakahetuanusaarena ariiyati, adhigammatiiti attho. Also nibbana, in accordance with the cause leading to it, is , as is said, served, reached, and thus, it is meaning. ``ya.m ki~nci paccayasambhuuta''nti etena saccahetudhammapaccayaakaaravaaresu aagataani dukkhaadiini gahitaani. As to the expression, ³anything conditionally produced², this means: it refers to the sections of truth, of cause, of dhamma, of the structure of conditions *, and is taken as dukkha and so on. saccapaccayaakaaravaaresu nibbaana.m, pariyattivaare bhaasitattho, Nibbana refers to the section of truth, and to the structure of conditions, the meaning of what is spoken refers to the section of competency in the scriptures (pariyatti) ** , abhidhammabhaajaniiye vipaako, kiriyaa caati eva.m paa.liya.m vuttaana.m eva vasena pa~nca atthaa veditabbaa. Result and functional consciousness refer to the Abhidhamma division, and because of what is thus said in the text, five categories which are meaning should be known. dahatiiti vidahati, nibbattakahetuaadiina.m saadhaara.nameta.m nibbacana.m. As to the word necessitates, this means, it arranges, by a cause that produces (result)and so on ***, and this (nibbattakahetu, producing cause) is a common word derivation. tadattha.m pana vibhaavetu.m ``pavatteti vaa sampaapu.nitu.m vaa detii''ti vutta.m. It was said, ³It makes occur, or it allows it to be reached², in order to explain this meaning. (tesu purimo attho maggavajjesu da.t.thabbo. ) ............. bhaasitampi hi avabodhanavasena attha.m pavatteti, maggo pana nibbaana.m paapetiiti (tasmi.m pacchimo attho.) Also what is spoken makes the meaning occur because of understanding it, and the Path causes nibbana to be reached........ nibbaana.m hi pattabbo attho, bhaasitattho ~naapetabbo attho, itaro nibbattetabbo atthoti eva.m tividho hoti. Nibbana is meaning that should be attained, the meaning of what is spoken is meaning that must be made known, as to the other meaning, that must be produced and in this way meaning is threefold. ****** English: Also nibbana, in accordance with the cause leading to it, is , as is said, served, As to the expression, ³anything conditionally produced², this means: it refers to the sections of truth, of cause, of dhamma, of the structure of conditions *, and is taken as dukkha and so on. Nibbana refers to the section of truth, and to the structure of conditions, the meaning of what is spoken refers to the section of competency in the scriptures (pariyatti) **, Result and functional consciousness refer to the Abhidhamma division, and because of what is thus said in the text, five categories which are meaning should be known. As to the word necessitates, this means, it arranges, by a cause that produces (result)and so on ***, and this (nibbattakahetu, producing cause) is a common word derivation. It was said, ³It makes occur, or it allows it to be reached², in order to explain this meaning. ............. Also what is spoken makes the meaning occur because of understanding it, and the Path causes nibbana to be reached........ Nibbana is meaning that should be attained, the meaning of what is spoken is meaning that must be made known, as to the other meaning, that must be produced and in this way meaning is threefold. _____________ * Meaning, attha, is the outcome or result of a condition. Nibbana is to be reached by means of a condition, thus it falls under meaning, attha. As to the truth section, the truth of dukkha is the result of the truth of origin, which is craving. Thus it falls under the category of meaning, attha. ** The meaning of what is spoken is the effect to be reached by means of the condition called ³what is spoken². The condition is the competency in the scriptures, as is explained in the ³Dispeller of Delusion², Ch 15, Category section, §1966. Now we see that discriminative understanding of language can be understood ³by means of meaning and so on, which have these as object² as said in Tiika 21. Thus, by means of attha, meaning, outcome or result, and dhamma, cause, we also understand better what is said about language that is uttered. *** This is said about dhamma, law, in Vis. 23. ****** 26247 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paramattha dhammas Dear Larry, op 19-10-2003 22:28 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > It looks to me that discrimination of cause and effect > (dhamma and attha) concerns both paramattha dhammas and conventional > realties, or, to put it another way, basic and complex arisings. N: I believe that cause and effect in conventional sense can be understood without learning the dhamma. When I look at the Vis 21 and at the Tiika I see five items and these refer to paramattha dhammas. Vis 21 has: < But in particular the five things, namely, (i) anything conditionally produced,(ii) nibbana, (iii) the meaning of what is spoken, (iv) (kamma-) result, and (v) functional (consciousness), should be understood as "meaning".> But I agree that what is spoken (cause) and meaning that is understood (meaning or outcome) is more complex. When I studied before the meanings of dhamma and learnt that even pannatti is dhamma, I was at first surprised. Now it is clearer. That what makes known, which is one meaning of pannatti, is cause, *dhamma*, and what is known is *meaning* in this sense. We also learn that the four discriminations are for non-trainers, arahats, and trainers, ariyans who are not arahat. Thus, it is not understanding of cause and effect that is common to us ordinary people. Nina. 26248 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 11:56am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi Ken, > -----Original Message----- > From: kenhowardau [mailto:kenhowardau@y...] > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 11:19 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" > wrote: > > > Thanks for that. We hear a lot about how book knowledge > is not enough, there has to be practice. And of course, > this is true but it's hard to see how we can study Dhamma > without practising it. As you say in the example you > give, the Dhamma student has to know kusala vipaka citta > from akusala vipaka citta. No doubt, this will entail > knowing kusala kamma citta from akusala kamma citta. > Then it will entail knowing kusala kamma citta > accompanied by panna, from kusala kamma citta > unaccompanied by panna. That's why it is important to know our own limit. We may hear about the different dhammas in very intricate details, but we need to realize that not all those can be known to us. It's possible at least for me to learn more and more about the differences between lobha and kusala, but it is not unexpected that the differences between vipaka, and process cittas, may never be directly known in this life (or the next!). > > It's hard to imagine how the Dhamma student could > investigate these things without, at some stage, wisely > considering the conditions pertaining here and now. (In > other words, practising Dhamma.) So we're on the right > track aren't we? > The question I ask is that is there an improvement of the knowledge that at this very moment, this is dhamma, which is not ours, not us, not within us? How about thinking? We are so used to think that "I" think (and that what I think must be right!), but is it really "I" who thinks? kom 26249 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 1:23pm Subject: "let the Dharma take care of the rest" Rodney Smith taught: Practice the phrase, “Just surrender to the Dharma,” when a difficulty arises in your life or practice. Your job is to be mindful and know what is happening, let the Dharma take care of the rest. See if inspiration and confidence come from repeating this phrase. http://www.seattleinsight.org/faculties_faith.htm "let the Dharma take care of the rest" - does this include creative thinking and problem-solving? Is this what the discussion on non-self means? Thanks / Antony. 26250 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 3:24pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Howard, ----------- KH: > > But I found dsg and my meditation days were over. :-) --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Shhh, Ken! Someone might be listening! (Are you sure you want to really come right out and declare that? ;-) ------------ :-) One of the dsg people who have taught me all I know is Robert K -- he meditates regularly. If it's a natural part of daily life, then it doesn't require silabbata- paramasa (belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual). In my case, the novelty of not having to meditate still hasn't worn off. If I was a kid on a bicycle, I'd be shouting, "Look Mum, no hands!" :-) ------------- H: > Ken, do you remember the story of the man impaled by the arrow??? You might consider rereading it! ----------------- In my own way, I AM getting on with the practice: I'm not waiting for 'meditation hour' and I'm not waiting to direct my mind to an object. I understand that dhammas are to be known here and now. ----------------- H: > How ironic, then, that the Anapanasati Sutta and the Satipatthana Sutta are probably the two most important suttas to the greatest number of Buddhists throughout the world. --------------- Ironic and sad but don't let it get you down :-) The Buddha's teaching is to be heard and understood. The fact that millions use it to boost their illusory egos is regrettable but just another symptom of conditionality. Conditionality is everywhere in all things -- it is to be understood. ------------- H: > One thing the Buddha certainly did was to recommend meditation to his followers Why should one of the things most often praised and recommended by the Buddha be avoided like the plague? (Just a rhetorical question, Ken. ;-) ------------- Rhetorical because you know the answer as well as I do? :-) Just for the record: There is no self. Wondrous things like jhana will occur if the conditions for wondrous things are present. Ignorance will occur if the conditions for ignorance are present. Conditions can be understood [thanks to the Buddha], but they can't be controlled. Kind regards, Ken H 26251 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 3:40pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Victor, ------------- V: > I wonder why you gave up meditating if you were happy about it. To me, you did not sound you were happy about it in your last message. -------------- We have a habit of misunderstanding each other. The meditation I practised brought almost instant happiness. It was a form of self-hypnosis couched in Buddhist terms. I can still do it if I want to; even without the Buddhist terms. But I'm more than content to know that reality is a group of fleeting, worthless, impersonal phenomena. Learning this was the best thing that ever happened to me. --------------- . . . . V: > Regarding mindfulness of breathing, I would not say that it is the least appropriate of all Buddhist practices. --------------- Nor would I. Nor did I. I said that, as I understand it, mindfulness of breathing is the least appropriate practice for me. I said that, as I understand it, mindfulness of breathing is the most highly esteemed of Buddhist practices; suited to the most highly esteemed individuals. There can be vipassana development without any jhana development; there can be jhana development followed by vipassana; there can be vipassana development followed by jhana; or there can be both jhana and vipassana developed in tandem. I think this last one involves mindfulness of breathing (not sure). As Jon has pointed out, it is a matter of understanding these four ways, not a matter of choosing one or the other. -------------- . . . . V: > However, even if I don't have that view as you do, at least we can both agree with what the Buddha said in the passage above. So I encourage you to follow what the Buddha taught in Anapanasati Sutta and verify your practice with the Buddha's teaching. I don't see that encouragement is a slander to the Buddha in anyway. -------------- Point taken and appreciated, thank you. --------------- V: > Regarding riding bicycle, I wanted to remind you that a lot of learning, whether learning a simple or complex skill, is achieved through trying and practicing. One could say that one of the skills in riding a bicycle is keeping balance while moving. How exactly should one keep balance while moving? That skill, or the sense of balance, is an experiential knowledge that can only be acquired by actually getting on a bicycle and trying. --------------- The accomplished bike rider still has the idea of a self who can ride a bike. The only way to learn not-self is to practice, here and now, without the idea of self. This is not an easy thing to do: the Middle Way is difficult to see. Trying makes it harder and not-trying makes it harder. Kind regards, Ken H 26252 From: Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 4:06pm Subject: Vism XIV, 26 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [Regarding the 4 discriminations: meaning, law, language, perspicuity] 26. "Knowledge about kinds of knowledge" (par.21): when a man is reviewing and makes any of the foregoing kinds of knowledge the object [of his knowledge], then any knowledge in him that has knowledge as its object is "discrimination of perspicuity", and so is any knowledge about these aforesaid kinds of knowledge, which is concerned with details of their individual domains, functions, and so on. 26253 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 4:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "let the Dharma take care of the rest" Hi Antony, ----- Original Message ----- From: Antony Woods To: Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 1:23 PM Subject: [dsg] "let the Dharma take care of the rest" > Practice the phrase, "Just surrender to the > Dharma," when a difficulty arises in your life or practice. Your > job > is to be mindful and know what is happening, let the Dharma take > care of the rest. See if inspiration and confidence come from > repeating this phrase. Without going into 'Your job', may I ask what you reckon he means by 'the Dharma'? Do you reckon he means the four noble truths? If so, do they seem to you to be able to 'take care' of anything? I don't mean these as rhetorical questions--just curious. mike p.s. I wonder if this resonates for you with any specific teaching in the paali tipi.taka? I can see where certain generalities might be inferred, but any particulars? I do recall various words translated as 'surrender' but can't, off the top of my head, remember the Buddha suggesting this as, e.g., the fourth noble truth (i.e. the way to the end of suffering). 26254 From: Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 26 Hi all, The definition of perspicuity is clarity, intelligence, etc. As described here patibhana (perspicuity) seems to be a synonym for ~naa.na (knowledge). The intimation might arise that this knowledge is not unlike scholastic knowledge. Larry ----------------------- 26. "Knowledge about kinds of knowledge" (par.21): when a man is reviewing and makes any of the foregoing kinds of knowledge the object [of his knowledge], then any knowledge in him that has knowledge as its object is "discrimination of perspicuity", and so is any knowledge about these aforesaid kinds of knowledge, which is concerned with details of their individual domains, functions, and so on. 26255 From: Manu Wadhwani Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 5:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: new member Dear Rob: > > Hope this helps. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > It does make things clearer. Thank you & warmest regards Manu 26256 From: antony272b2 Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 7:29pm Subject: Re: "let the Dharma take care of the rest" Dear Mike, there is a saying "the Dhamma upholds those who uphold the Dhamma" but I couldn't find a scriptural reference. I am interested in learning the meaning of Smith's teaching. It seemed to give a sense of relief when I read it. There is Dhamma-niyama: 5. Dhammaniyama: the natural law governing the relationship and interdependence of all things: the way all things arise, exist and then cease. All conditions are subject to change, are in a state of affliction and are not self: this is the Norm. The first four niyama are contained within, or based on, the fifth one, Dhammaniyama, the Law of Dhamma, or the Law of Nature. It may be questioned why Dhammaniyama, being as it were the totality, is also included within the subdivisions. This is because this fourfold categorization does not cover the entire extent of Dhammaniyama. http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma1.htm This quote might help: The Two Meanings of Dhamma (also by Bhikkhu Payutto) For many people, the term "Buddhist economics" may evoke the image of an ideal society where all economic activity - buying and selling, production and consumption - adheres to strict ethical standards. But such an idealized image, attractive as it may sound, does not convey the full depth of the Buddha's teachings. The Buddha's teachings point to //Dhamma//, or truth. In Buddhism the term Dhamma is used to convey different levels of truth, both relative truths and ultimate truth. Those truths regarding ethical behaviour - both on a personal day-to-day basis and in society - are called //cariyadhamma//. These are the truths related to matters of good and evil. Dhamma in its larger sense is //saccadhamma//, truth, or //sabhavadhamma//, reality: it includes all things as they are and the laws by which they function. In this sense, Dhamma is used to describe the entire stream of causes and conditions, the process by which all things exist and function. Unlike the narrower scope of //cariyadhamma//, which refers to isolated ethical considerations, //sabhavadhamma// points to nature of reality itself, which is beyond concerns of good and evil. In this all-encompassing sense, Dhamma expresses the totality of natural conditions, that which the various branches of science seek to describe. Thus, the Buddha's teachings give us more than just ethical guidelines for a virtuous life. His teachings offer a grand insight into the nature of reality. Given the twofold meaning of the term Dhamma, it follows that an economics inspired by the Dhamma would be both attuned to the grand sphere of causes and conditions and, at the same time, guided by the specific ethical teachings based on natural reality. In other words, Buddhist economists would not only consider the ethical values of economic activity, but also strive to understand reality and direct economic activity to be in harmony with "the way things are." Ultimately, economics cannot be separated from Dhamma, because all the activities we associate with economics emerge from the Dhamma. Economics is just one part of a vast interconnected whole, subject to the same natural laws by which all things function. Dhamma describes the workings of this whole, the basic truth of all things, including economics. If economics is ignorant of the Dhamma - of the complex and dynamic process of causes-and-effects that constitutes reality - then it will be hard pressed to solve problems, much less produce the benefits to which it aims. http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/econ1.htm --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Antony, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Antony Woods > To: > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 1:23 PM > Subject: [dsg] "let the Dharma take care of the rest" > > > > Practice the phrase, "Just surrender to the > > Dharma," when a difficulty arises in your life or practice. > Your job is to be mindful and know what is happening, let the Dharma > take care of the rest. See if inspiration and confidence come from > repeating this phrase. > > Without going into 'Your job', may I ask what you reckon he means by 'the > Dharma'? Do you reckon he means the four noble truths? If so, do they seem > to you to be able to 'take care' of anything? I don't mean these as > rhetorical questions--just curious. > > mike > > p.s. I wonder if this resonates for you with any specific teaching in the > paali tipi.taka? I can see where certain generalities might be inferred, > but any particulars? I do recall various words translated as 'surrender' > but can't, off the top of my head, remember the Buddha suggesting this as, > e.g., the fourth noble truth (i.e. the way to the end of suffering). 26257 From: Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 3:33pm Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 10/20/03 6:26:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Why should one of the things most often praised and > recommended by the Buddha be avoided like the plague? > (Just a rhetorical question, Ken. ;-) > ------------- > > Rhetorical because you know the answer as well as I do? > :-) Just for the record: There is no self. Wondrous > things like jhana will occur if the conditions for > wondrous things are present. Ignorance will occur if the > conditions for ignorance are present. Conditions can be > understood [thanks to the Buddha], but they can't be > controlled. > =========================== I have entered jhanic states in the past, because I meditated appropriately - I set up the needed conditions. [Warning! Warning! "I did this and I did that" is figurative speech and is understood to be such.] Had I not so meditated, had the conditions not been established, there would have been no results. I'm engaged in samatha meditation once again and am slowly making progress once again. It is a mistake, I believe, to take no-control and no-self, to mean that nothing can be accomplished. Nothing can be accomplished if the needed steps are not taken. The Buddha didn't tell his followers to refrain from cultivation of the jhanas, there being "no control". He told them just the opposite. And he was nobody's fool. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26258 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 8:39pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Ken, Thank you for your reply and for sharing your meditation experience. Self-hypnosis is certainly not mindfulness of breathing. I wonder how mindfulness of breathing is the least appropriate for you. I also wonder how you see that mindfulness of breathing is suited to the most highly esteemed individuals. I don't see how those ideas can be inferred from what the Buddha taught. But I believe that you must have a rationale for seeing that way. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 26259 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 9:10pm Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 19 B Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 19 B Cross reference to the ³Discourse on the great Elephant¹s Footprint², Part II. As is explained in the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M 28): < Ta~n-ce aavuso bhikku.m, pare akkosanti paribhaasanti rosenti vihesenti, so eva.m pajaanaati: So then if others abuse and scold and curse and threaten a bhikkhu, he understands thus, Upannaa kho me aya.m sotasamphassajaa dukkhaa vedanaa, "This painful feeling born of ear-contact has arisen in me. saa ca kho pa.ticca no appa.ticca, ki.m pa.ticca: phassa.m pa.ticca. That is dependent, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact." So: phasso anicco ti passati, vedanaa aniccaa ti passati, sa~n~naa aniccaa ti passati, sa"nkhaaraa aniccaa ti passati, vi~n~naana.m aniccanti passati.> Then he sees that contact is impermanent..." the same for feeling, sa~n~naa, san"khaarakkhandha and vi~n~naa.na. (translation of Wheel 101) We then read: < Tassa dhaataaramma.na.m-eva citta.m pakkhandati pasiidati santi.t.thati adhimuccati> And his mind enters into that very object (taking it just as an impersonal) element, and acquires confidence, steadiness and decision (herein). > Knowing that what we see or hear are just conditioned elements reminds us of the true Dhamma. If equanimity does not persist in the bhikkhu, he should arouse a sense of urgency (sa.mvega.m aapajjati) as is stated in the sutta. A sense of urgency to develop right understanding at this very moment. We are bound to be distressed about an unpleasant experience or a loss, but when we begin to develop pa~n~naa we can gradually learn from such an experience. Sometimes, when there are conditions, we may even be glad and full of confidence in the Triple Gem, as we also read in this sutta: < Tassa ce aavuso bhikkhuno eva.m Buddha.m anussarato eva.m Dhamma.m anussarato eva.m Sa"nga.m anussarato But if, when a bhikkhu recollects the enlightened One, the Teaching and the Community, upekhaa kusalanissitaa sa.n.thaati, so tena attamano hoti... equanimity with the beneficial (kusala dhamma) as its support, becomes established in him, then he is satisfied.> Sariputta also spoke here about the Buddha's Discourse on the "Parable of the Saw": "Even if bandits brutally severed limb from limb with a two-handled saw, he who entertained hate in his heart on that account would not be one who carried out my teaching." Sariputta explained the conditions for seeing, for the other sense-cognitions and for the experiences through the mind-door, and he explained that the five khandhas have arisen because of conditions. He referred to the Dependent Origination, and he explained that clinging to the five khandhas is the cause of dukkha, whereas the eradication of clinging is the cessation of dukkha. ****** Nina. 26260 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 0:46am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi James, I am a lost cause. I really have no inclination to take up meditation again. Fortunately, my disposition is entirely consistent with what I understand of the Buddha's teaching; That is, with the development of bare insight. If you can convince me otherwise, please do so but it will have to be by referring to the Pali Canon. It would be wrong to rely on strength of convictions: cold hard facts please. ------------- J: > The wrong thing to do when you encounter these doubts is to seek out other people with the same doubts and form a `meditation doubting group'. Talk about enabling! ----------------- I hope you are not referring to anyone we know. :-) Discussing the Dhamma as found in the Pali Canon can involve treading on toes. Some people will be hurt and insulted -- especially if the discussion is inept. But if some people come to Buddhism for the wrong reasons -- because they are in love with meditation, for example -- then they should know that. ----------------- J: > If you choose not to meditate, okay; that is your choice. I would just suggest that you be aware of the true reason you have made that choice rather than to blame the practice. ----------------- In my case, the true reason is not doubt about formal meditation, it is confidence in momentary, conditioned, right understanding (panna). Kind regards, Ken H 26261 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 4:56am Subject: Re: "let the Dharma take care of the rest" --- Dear Antony and mike, I think this teaching: "Practice the phrase, "Just surrender to the > > > Dharma," when a difficulty arises in your life or practice. > > Your job is to be mindful and know what is happening, let the Dharma > > take care of the rest. " can be taken on many levels. Because all there is is Dhamma. If it is happening this way - whatever way that is - it is because those are the dhammas that are conditioned at this moment. Thinking about the situation is often being caught up in concepts, but insight into the present moment is a refuge that doesn`t depend on external conditions. 'Surrender' sounds a bit corny but I think is actually not too bad a term for the moments when there is a little understanding. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: > Dear Mike, > > there is a saying "the Dhamma upholds those who uphold the Dhamma" > but I couldn't find a scriptural reference. > 26262 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:44am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi James, > > I am a lost cause. I really have no inclination to take > up meditation again. Fortunately, my disposition is > entirely consistent with what I understand of the > Buddha's teaching; That is, with the development of bare > insight. If you can convince me otherwise, please do so > but it will have to be by referring to the Pali Canon. > It would be wrong to rely on strength of convictions: > cold hard facts please. > Hi Ken H., I don't think that anyone is a lost cause; we all have the potentiality for change. However, I am not really trying to convince you to meditate. I don't believe in proselytizing. As I wrote, you can do whatever you choose to do. I am merely writing for the sake of the contention. You wrote that you want "cold hard facts", well, here are the cold hard facts as I know them: the Noble Eightfold Path doesn't contain just Right View and Right Understanding (Panna, by your definition), it also contains Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. They all must be developed, as taught by the Buddha. Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration cannot be developed without meditation practice: Jhana, samatha, or vipassana. This is again what the Buddha taught (Further clarified by Ananda). Mindfulness and Concentration are not natural states of the mind in samsara. The confused mind in the state of samsara cannot enlighten itself by will power alone or by having Right View and Right Understanding alone (which I don't believe the Abhidhamma qualifies, but for the sake of argument let's assume it does). This is as simple and factual as I can make it. Actually, I would like for you to tell me the cold hard facts as to why meditation isn't necessary for fulfillment of the Four Noble Truths. What is your reasoning? What are the facts and support from the Pali Canon? Are there posts in the archives or something that lay out the groundwork for this whole school of thought? I have been reading the posts of Jon, Sarah, you and others that speak against meditation practice and I still don't get it. There isn't anything written that is specific enough to pin down as a reason, as I see it. Could you explain exactly what it is that you do that is supposed to end dukkha? In other words, how are you (or your life) different from anyone else who doesn't know the dhamma? What are you doing that is going to end the round of samsara for yourself (non- self)? Metta, James 26263 From: Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 3:13am Subject: Supports for Investigation of Dhammas [Re: Nibbana a Nama? ...] Hi, Ken (and James)- In a message dated 10/21/03 3:47:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi James, > > I am a lost cause. I really have no inclination to take > up meditation again. Fortunately, my disposition is > entirely consistent with what I understand of the > Buddha's teaching; That is, with the development of bare > insight. If you can convince me otherwise, please do so > but it will have to be by referring to the Pali Canon. > It would be wrong to rely on strength of convictions: > cold hard facts please. > > ------------- > J: >The wrong thing to do when you encounter these > doubts is to seek out other people with the same doubts > and form a `meditation doubting group'. Talk about > enabling! > ----------------- > > I hope you are not referring to anyone we know. :-) > Discussing the Dhamma as found in the Pali Canon can > involve treading on toes. Some people will be hurt and > insulted -- especially if the discussion is inept. But > if some people come to Buddhism for the wrong reasons -- > because they are in love with meditation, for example -- > then they should know that. > > ----------------- > J: >If you choose not to meditate, okay; that is your > choice. I would just suggest that you be aware of the > true reason you have made that choice rather than to > blame the practice. > ----------------- > > In my case, the true reason is not doubt about formal > meditation, it is confidence in momentary, conditioned, > right understanding (panna). > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================ I would like to make a couple comments on what you write here, Ken. A practice of attention to whatever arises in the namarupic stream at "regular times," particularly involving the observation of the tilakkhana in all arising and ceasing dhammas, is most certainly a central and important part of the Buddha's path, and it constitutes an important element of what he taught in the Satipatthana Sutta. I do believe, however, that without several extremely important supports, this will be a practice that only operates at a superficial and relatively ineffective level. To be effective, it must be accompanied by very strong concentration and unrelenting mindfulness. This is not normally the case. An essential means of support, as, of course, you well know, is sila, because a mind that is unruffled by akusala behavior, is a mind that has a degree of basic calm and happiness, and is less inclined to distraction. Conversely, immoral nehavior disturbs the mind and makes it an unfit tool. Sila, of course, is something we all pursue, not just because it is useful, but because it is "right". A classical, overall means of support, obviously, is the entire regulated life of a monk/nun, which fosters all the needed factors. This is the optimal environment for Buddhist practice, but has not been adopted by us, though there may be some monks who are members of DSG - I just don't know. An important means of support repeatedly emphasized by the Buddha, is attaining, or, better, mastering, jhanic states, which keeps discontent, including desires and aversions, at bay, making the mind a more fit tool for investigation of dhammas. This is a classical support recommended repeatedly by the Buddha. Another type of support, particularly emphasized by modern Buddhist meditation teachers, is investigation of dhammas from the state of "neighborhood concentration" attained by directly engaging in such investigation in a context of "restricted input" such as in walking meditation with attention centered on leg and foot motions and positions, or sitting meditation with attention centered on, though not restricted to, a primary area of observation such as the breath or bodily sensations, with such a limiting of scope serving to intensify concentration and mindfulness, and serving to make less likely the getting caught up (or "swept away") in thought and losing mindfulness. This third sort of approach is usually refered to as insight meditation/vipassana meditation/mindfulness practice in current teaching, and it is a kind of a middle-way approach between unsupported attending to what arises during "ordinary times" and the more focussed jhana-cultivation practice. Also falling under such an approach would be, I believe, such practices as the "just sitting" or "silent illumination" practices of Zen/Ch'an. I can attest to all of these means of support as being effective. What is a near-impossible task, however, unless one has unusual accumulations that have arisen from herculean efforts and long practice in past lives, is, as I see it, the attempt to see things as they are during "ordinary times" without support. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26264 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:57am Subject: FW: Hi from Mynmar -----Original Message----- From: sinsk@m... [mailto:sinsk@m...] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 7:29 AM To: dsg Subject: Hi from Mynmar Dear all, Hello from us all. Sarah asked me to post on dsg to let you guys know that we cannot access dsg/yahoo group from Mynmar. We wish you all can be here. With metta, Sarah, Jon, Sukin, Christine, Betty, & Num Bagan, Mynmar ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through MU-Webmail: webmail.mahidol 26265 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:06am Subject: Re: "let the Dharma take care of the rest": To Antony, Mike, and Robert K Dear Antony, Mike, Robert K and all How are you? Antony wrote and asked: "There is a saying "the Dhamma upholds those who uphold the Dhamma" but I couldn't find a scriptural reference. ---- What is the meaning of this expression?" I think the saying Antony mentioned might be a loose translation of the following Theragaathaa verse. "Dhammo have rakkhati dhammacaarim, dhammo suci.n.no sukhamaavahati. "Merit indeed protects the practitioner of merit, The well-accumulated merit brings happiness." Section 303, Theragaathaa. AS for the meaning of the above expression, the commentary explains along these lines. Dhammo means the worldly and transworldly meritorious actions. Those meritorious actions will protect us from miserable experiences and rebirths. And well-accumulated merit will also guarantee us good experiences and rebirths as well as nibbaana ultimately. I hope the above information helps. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: Dear Mike, > there is a saying "the Dhamma upholds those who uphold the Dhamma" > but I couldn't find a scriptural reference. > 26266 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "let the Dharma take care of the rest" Dear Anthony, You give interesting points for considering. Dhammaniyama is a subject that interests me very much. op 21-10-2003 04:29 schreef antony272b2 op antony272b@h...: Rodney Smith taught: Practice the phrase, “Just surrender to the Dharma, when a difficulty arises in your life or practice. Your job is to be mindful and know what is happening, let the Dharma take care of the rest. See if inspiration and confidence come from repeating this phrase."let the Dharma take care of the rest" - does this include creative thinking and problem-solving? Is this what the discussion on non-self means? > I am interested in learning the meaning of Smith's teaching. It > seemed to give a sense of relief when I read it. > > There is Dhamma-niyama: > 5. Dhammaniyama: the natural law governing the relationship and > interdependence of all things: the way all things arise, exist and > then > cease. All conditions are subject to change, are in a state of > affliction > and are not self: this is the Norm. . N: I made a study of the meanings of dhamma (about 18 meanings) and one of these is Dhammaniyama. I repost (it is in the archives of dsg): You found it a relief to read, "let the Dharma take care of the rest". There can be a relief, but this should be balanced with a sense of urgency to develop understanding of realities, no matter what appears. To give some examples. We may be depressed by the unpleasant worldly conditions of loss, dishonour, blame, bodily sickness. But it helps to know that these are conditioned, dhamma niyaama. There can be more understanding that whatever arises has its appropriate conditions. We may be overwhelmed by strong lobha and strong dosa. These realities are conditioned, we had such inclinations in the past. But no matter what arises, it is fit to be object of understanding. Then the Dhamma takes care of the rest in the right way. We are not leaning back in laziness. If we have right understanding of dhammaniyaama it makes the development of vipassana very natural. No forcing. All akusala has to be known anyway, because what is not understood is taken for self. Ken H just wrote: Good to remember, and take action! Rodney wrote: Mindfulness is not just knowing what is happening, we have to be more precise, and this is what Mike was also suggesting. The question is: mindfulness of what? Nina. 26267 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 26 Hi Larry, I have to look at the Tiika, but I am only at 22. What do you mean by scholastic knowledge ? The four discriminations are not theory for the enlightenend ones. Nina. op 21-10-2003 02:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi all, > > The definition of perspicuity is clarity, intelligence, etc. As > described here patibhana (perspicuity) seems to be a synonym for ~naa.na > (knowledge). The intimation might arise that this knowledge is not > unlike scholastic knowledge. 26268 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Dear Jon and Victor, Jon, you mentioned that we should look at the Co, and I did. Victor, I looked up sutta and commentary, which I have in Thai. See below. op 19-10-2003 13:28 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: Victor: Now, to realize the cessation of dukkha right concentration alone >> is >> not sufficient. However, to realize the cessation of dukkha, right >> concentration, as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, is >> necessary. >> >> Specifically, as the Buddha taught, >> >> "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the >> first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the >> dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the >> infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell >> you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the >> dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. >> >> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html N: the ending of the mental fermentations, the canker destruction, refers to the arahat. The sutta states (PTS) about the monk who enters the first jhana: Co states: these dhammas (te dhamme): the five khandhas of rupa, etc....Aniccato: as impermanent, because of the state of: there is and then there is not.> N: What a good definition of impermanence! Seeing arises, and then it is gone, there is and then there is not. Lobha arises, and then it is gone, there is and then there is not. The Co elaborates on the sutta words: a hurt, and affliction, etc. By being anatta: because it is beyond control, not in anyone's power. Co: We read in the sutta: N: Victor, this is what Jon meant: the greatest peace. Co< The bhikkhu is established in the first jhana, develops strong insight and attains arahatship.> The Co then explains more about the three characteristics and about vipassana that has the three characteristics as object. It states that he should overcome attachment to samatha and to vipassana. Then he can attain arahatship. The Co then speaks about rupajhana and arupajhana. Thus we see, also those who were jhanalabhi, skilled in jhana, had to develop insight so that they could reach arahatship. This sutta deals with the highly gifted person who could develop rupajhana, arupajhana, attain arahatship and attain cessation of perception and feeling, nirodha samapatti. Nina. 26269 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:47am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Ken, I think James has given you a cogent explanation in accordance with the what the Buddha taught. Here I would like to refer to some passages from the Pali Canon, in which the Buddha exhorted bhikkhus to meditate. 371. Meditate, O monk! Do not be heedless. Let not your mind whirl on sensual pleasures. Heedless, do not swallow a red-hot iron ball, lest you cry when burning, "O this is painful!" 372. There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks insight, and no insight for him who lacks meditative concentration. He in whom are found both meditative concentration and insight, indeed, is close to Nibbana. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp1/25.html An alternative translation: 371. Meditate, O bhikkhu, and be not heedless. Let not your mind whirl in the strand of sensuality. Do not swallow a metal ball, being heedless, While burning; do not lament, "This is woe." 372. There is no meditative absorption for one who lacks insight; There is no insight for one who is not meditating. In whom there is meditative absorption and insight, Truly, he is in Nibbana's presence. * Here is another passage: "Thus, monk, I have taught about the monk engrossed in mastery over learning, about one engrossed in teaching, about one engrossed in recitation, about one engrossed in pondering, and about one who lives by the Dhamma. Whatever should be done by a compassionate teacher who, out of compassion, seeks the welfare of his disciples, that I have done for you. These are the roots of trees, O monk, these are empty huts. Meditate, monk, do not be negligent lest you regret it later. This is our instruction to you." ** An alternative translation: "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html I hope you will find these passages helpful. Peace, Victor * Carter, R. John and Palihawadana, Mahinda, trans. The Dhammapada. New York: Oxford University Press, 1987. ** Nyanaponika, Thera and Bodhi, Bhikkhu, trans. Numerical Discourses of the Buddha; an anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya. Walnut Creek, CA: AltaMira Press, 1999. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi James, [snip] 26270 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 0:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Hi Nina, Thank you for looking up the sutta and commentary. I would not disagree with you. It is just that we have different interpretations about what it means by the phrase "or to something more peaceful than that" from the passage: "Mahanama, there is still a state unabandoned by you internally, owing to which at times states of greed, hate, and delusion invade your mind and remain; for were that state already abandoned by you internally you would not be living the home life, you would not be enjoying sensual pleasures. It is because that state is unabandoned by you internally that you are living the home life and enjoying sensual pleasures. "Even though a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, as long as he still does not attain to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, he may still be attracted to sensual pleasures. But when a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasures. * Let's put aside the differences in our interpretations for now. I believe that both of us would agree that when a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasures. Peace, Victor * Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi, trans., _The Middle Length Discourses fo the Buddha: a new translation of the Majjhima Nikaya_, p. 186-7. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon and Victor, > Jon, you mentioned that we should look at the Co, and I did. > Victor, I looked up sutta and commentary, which I have in Thai. See below. [snip] 26271 From: Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 26 Nina: "What do you mean by scholastic knowledge ?" Hi Nina, Not theory. Just knowledge of knowledge like a teacher, scholar. I believe a bhanaka is a reciter of suttas. If this bhanaka really knew his stuff he would have discriminating knowledge of knowledge (patisambhida patibhana), scholastic knowledge. Larry 26272 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Dear Dharam, I think you make some good points. Probably the best step to take would be if you write about any other teachings or religions that you find equal to the teaching of the Buddha in wisdom etc. Otherwise it is speculation that there are such teachers. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342" wrote: > Hello RobertK, > > Thanks for your response, and good to be exchanging ideas with you > again. > > 26273 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:44pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Howard (James and Victor), ------------- H: > I have entered jhanic states in the past, because I meditated appropriately - I set up the needed conditions. ------------- Here is a good example of what I was saying to James about treading on toes: How, without being impertinent, can I say that you have not entered jhanic states? (At least, that you have not in this lifetime -- and probably not in this current 'turn of the wheel' -- entered jhanic states.) Obviously, you have had astounding, indescribable, experiences and your meditation teachers have certified them as jhana but you and our teachers can be wrong. I have just looked in CMA for a paragraph I read there some time ago but have been unable to locate since. As I remember it [and I could be wrong], it describes access concentration: (I think access is a level reached prior to jhana concentration; jhana being a much higher level.) This access concentration manifests in truly amazing ways; including levitation. The body of the meditator actually floats above the ground. And this is before jhana! (There's a lot on jhana in UP's, of course.) I doubt very much there is an accomplished jhana practitioner living on earth today. In the Buddha's era, there were many, many people living alone literally at the bases of trees in abandoned cemeteries or remote forests. Their lives were totally devoted to jhana development. When they died and were reborn, they continued where they had left off -- such was the power of their training. Of those who seriously embarked on this course of training, only one in a thousand (I think those are the figures), succeeded in developing access concentration. In turn, only one in a thousand of these developed the first jhana; and so on to the eighth jhana. So it's a really, really rare and powerful concentration; unlike anything known on earth today (IMHO). ----------------- H: > [Warning! Warning! "I did this and I did that" is figurative speech and is understood to be such.] ----------------- Good, I'll hold you to that. :-) --------------- H: > Had I not so meditated, had the conditions not been established, there would have been no results. --------------- I think we can all agree on that (as figurative speech). ----------------- . . . . H: > It is a mistake, I believe, to take no-control and no-self, to mean that nothing can be accomplished. ----------------- Agreed: that would, in the absolute (non-figurative), sense, be wrong view (miccha-ditthi). (In the conventional world though, who can say what is true and what is false? Strong arguments can be made for and against any proposition. But I digress.) --------------- H: > Nothing can be accomplished if the needed steps are not taken. --------------- Yes, figuratively speaking, we must get on a bicycle [repeatedly], before we can ride it properly: We must live a thousand consecutive lifetimes at the bases of trees before we can experience jhana. BUT, figuratively speaking, does the same apply to vipassana? There are no bases of trees needed there (even kings and merchants have developed vipassana). Figuratively speaking, the steps are: hear the true Dhamma from a reliable source, consider it, discuss it and actually know rupa as rupa, nama as nama, with deeper and deeper levels of insight. These are the only required 'steps' before eventually, [after who knows how many lifetimes], reaching the Eightfold Path. -------------- H: > The Buddha didn't tell his followers to refrain from cultivation of the jhanas, there being "no control". He told them just the opposite. -------------- Yes, if a person is suited to jhana, he should practise jhana: if he is suited to being a merchant, he should be a merchant: no out-of-the-ordinary steps are needed for vipassana. Even so, those steps are not carried out by virtue of control over reaity; it just seems that way. ---------------- H: > And he was nobody's fool. --------------- The Buddha knew and taught absolute realty. I think you and I agree on this but not so Victor and maybe not James. Leaving aside the figurative speech, there are just the five khandhas that arise, persist and cease all in this present, fleeting moment. Nowhere, are there good friends, monks, kings or merchants -- there are no trees and no lifetimes spent seated at the bases of them. Kind regards, Ken H 26274 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:03pm Subject: Re: _[dsg]_ICARO´S_BIRTHDAY Dear Icaro, Many happy returns, and may your understanding of dhamma in daily life grow. Sarah cannot answer you now, she is in Myanmar. op 19-10-2003 13:45 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > The act of concentration at this own side is really kusala. > The outer manifestation of these concentration - as an external > and concrete act or as a mind-phala - is akusala. Anyway, corrections > are welcome! > Samatha - as I see it - is always kusala! N: There is concentration with each citta as you know. I would not separate citta from outward manifestation. The citta with concentration, kusala or akusala can motivate actions. Samatha bhavana is always kusala, it is mental development. I: Just for now I haven´t got any time to write the next chapter of > ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY - - "Hercules!!!" - a mention about the famous C-130 airplane and > not (Unfortunately!!!) the immortal Kevin Sorbo´s character! N: This is probably a cartoon? ;-) Never heard of it. I do not look at cartoons, my brother does. I understood you have some time off at home, and I hope you have a nice and also a fruitful day, Nina. 26275 From: Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 5:07pm Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Ken - Okay, Ken, as I said before: "So, don't meditate!" ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/21/03 11:46:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard (James and Victor), > > ------------- > H: >I have entered jhanic states in the past, because I > meditated appropriately - I set up the needed conditions. > ------------- > > Here is a good example of what I was saying to James > about treading on toes: How, without being impertinent, > can I say that you have not entered jhanic states? (At > least, that you have not in this lifetime -- and probably > not in this current 'turn of the wheel' -- entered jhanic > states.) Obviously, you have had astounding, > indescribable, experiences and your meditation teachers > have certified them as jhana but you and our teachers can > be wrong. > > I have just looked in CMA for a paragraph I read there > some time ago but have been unable to locate since. As I > remember it [and I could be wrong], it describes access > concentration: (I think access is a level reached prior > to jhana concentration; jhana being a much higher level.) > This access concentration manifests in truly amazing > ways; including levitation. The body of the meditator > actually floats above the ground. And this is before > jhana! (There's a lot on jhana in UP's, of course.) > > I doubt very much there is an accomplished jhana > practitioner living on earth today. In the Buddha's era, > there were many, many people living alone literally at > the bases of trees in abandoned cemeteries or remote > forests. Their lives were totally devoted to jhana > development. When they died and were reborn, they > continued where they had left off -- such was the power > of their training. Of those who seriously embarked on > this course of training, only one in a thousand (I think > those are the figures), succeeded in developing access > concentration. In turn, only one in a thousand of these > developed the first jhana; and so on to the eighth jhana. > > So it's a really, really rare and powerful concentration; > unlike anything known on earth today (IMHO). > > ----------------- > H: >[Warning! Warning! "I did this and I > did that" is figurative speech and is understood to be > such.] > ----------------- > > Good, I'll hold you to that. > :-) > > --------------- > H: >Had I not so meditated, had the conditions not been > established, there would have been no results. > --------------- > > I think we can all agree on that (as figurative speech). > > ----------------- > . . . . > H: >It is a mistake, I believe, to take no-control and > no-self, to mean that nothing can be accomplished. > ----------------- > > Agreed: that would, in the absolute (non-figurative), > sense, be wrong view (miccha-ditthi). > > (In the conventional world though, who can say what is > true and what is false? Strong arguments can be made for > and against any proposition. But I digress.) > > --------------- > H: >Nothing can be accomplished if the needed steps are > not taken. > --------------- > > Yes, figuratively speaking, we must get on a bicycle > [repeatedly], before we can ride it properly: We must > live a thousand consecutive lifetimes at the bases of > trees before we can experience jhana. > > BUT, figuratively speaking, does the same apply to > vipassana? There are no bases of trees needed there > (even kings and merchants have developed vipassana). > Figuratively speaking, the steps are: hear the true > Dhamma from a reliable source, consider it, discuss it > and actually know rupa as rupa, nama as nama, with deeper > and deeper levels of insight. These are the only > required 'steps' before eventually, [after who knows how > many lifetimes], reaching the Eightfold Path. > > -------------- > H: >The Buddha didn't tell his followers to refrain from > cultivation of the jhanas, there being "no control". He > told them just the opposite. > -------------- > > Yes, if a person is suited to jhana, he should practise > jhana: if he is suited to being a merchant, he should be > a merchant: no out-of-the-ordinary steps are needed for > vipassana. Even so, those steps are not carried out by > virtue of control over reaity; it just seems that way. > > ---------------- > H: >And he was nobody's fool. > --------------- > > The Buddha knew and taught absolute realty. I think you > and I agree on this but not so Victor and maybe not > James. Leaving aside the figurative speech, there are > just the five khandhas that arise, persist and cease all > in this present, fleeting moment. Nowhere, are there > good friends, monks, kings or merchants -- there are no > trees and no lifetimes spent seated at the bases of them. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26276 From: robmoult Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:12pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Consciousness (Citta) & Mental Factors (Cetasikas) Slide Contents ============== Unwholesome Cittas (Between 15 and 22 cetasikas) - Ethically Variable Cetasikas - Unwholesome Cetasikas Wholesome Cittas (Between 31 and 38 cetasikas) - Ethically Variable Cetasikas - Wholesome Cetasikas Rootless Cittas (Between 7 and 12 cetasikas) - Ethically Variable Cetasikas Speaker Notes ============= One of the definitions of citta mentioned earlier was, "the means by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an object. The accompanying mental factors are the cetasikas; the second type of ultimate reality. Cittas never arise without cetasikas and cetasikas depend upon citta to get access to an object. Cittas are pure awareness; it is the accompanying cetasikas that determine if the citta is unwholesome, wholesome or neutral. The Abhidhamma lists three classes of cetasikas: - Ethically variable: can be unwholesome, wholesome or neutral - Unwholesome: always bad - Wholesome: always good Ethically Variable Cetasikas Slide Contents ============== In all cittas: - Contact / Sense Impression - Feeling / Sensation - Perception / Recognition - Volition / Intention / Will - One-pointedness / Concentration - Life Faculty / Vitality - Attention / Advertence / Reflection In some cittas: - Initial Application / Applied Thinking - Sustained Application / Discursive Thinking - Determination / Decision - Energy / Effort / Exertion - Enthusiasm / Zest / Rapture / Interest - Desire / Zeal / Wish Speaker Notes ============= This is the list of the 13 mental factors which are unwholesome when they arise in unwholesome cittas, wholesome when they arise in unwholesome cittas and neutral when they arise in a neutral citta. In the seeing-consciousness citta, each cetasika has a task to perform as follows: - Contact connects with the visible object - Feeling experiences the "taste" of the visible object - Perception marks and remembers the visible object - Volition coordinates the tasks of the accompanying mental factors - One-pointedness focuses on the visible object - Life faculty sustains the citta and accompanying mental factors until they fall away - Attention drives the citta and the accompanying mental factors towards the visible object 26277 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 0:58am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > The Buddha knew and taught absolute realty. I think you > and I agree on this but not so Victor and maybe not > James. Hi Ken, For the record, I believe that the Buddha knew absolute reality but he didn't teach it. The Buddha only taught suffering and the end to suffering...that was it. Why would he attempt to teach absolute reality to humans who are mired in ignorance? It would be an impossible task. The Abhidhamma, not taught by the Buddha, attempts this impossible task and fails, in my opinion. Metta, James ps. Everything you have to say about the Jhanas is not supported by the suttas, it comes from secondary texts. The Buddha was the absolute authority and only what he taught should be considered. Secondly, let's just say that it does take an incredibly long time to develop jhana, so what? That is more reason for you to stop complaining about it and begin practicing! You are wasting time! 26278 From: Sugiarto Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 0:24am Subject: Just to say Hello to All Member... Namo Buddhaya... Let's me introduces myself first, My Name is Sugiarto Limawan , Male, 26th years Old, lived in Jakarta- Indonesia. I interesting with "Dhamma Study Group" mailing list to find out about Buddhist , I still a member of Local Buddhist's Mailing list, such as: Mahasati, SamaggiJaya and others . I know DSG from someone ,who are member of one buddhits's mailing list. NB: I'm sorry , if my english so bad , because i'm not expert in english. Mettacittena, S.L 26279 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:53am Subject: Re: Just to say Hello to All Member... Hi Sugiarto, Selamat Datang! (My wife is Indonesian and I lived in Jakarta 15 years ago). The best way to get involved in the group is to ask a question or make a comment on somebody else's post. I think you will find the group here to be quite friendly. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sugiarto" wrote: > Namo Buddhaya... > > Let's me introduces myself first, > My Name is Sugiarto Limawan , Male, 26th years Old, lived in Jakarta- > Indonesia. > > I interesting with "Dhamma Study Group" mailing list to find out about > Buddhist , I still a member of Local Buddhist's Mailing list, such as: > Mahasati, SamaggiJaya and others . > > I know DSG from someone ,who are member of one buddhits's mailing list. > > NB: I'm sorry , if my english so bad , because i'm not expert in english. > > Mettacittena, > S.L 26280 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:25pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi James and Howard, I am behind in my 'messages to reply to' but, judging from your latest posts, I may have said too much already. Since the following reply is ready to go, I may as well post it. James, Thanks for those cold hard facts, as you see them. You say the 'Noble Eightfold Path' is one. Is this just some warm and fuzzy description of just another religion? For example, is Right Speech the same sort of thing the local church minister would encourage from his parishioners? Or, is it a definite, concrete thing with finite, inherent characteristics? How is the meditation you refer to worth bothering with? There are so many weird and wonderful stories of yogis and what they are supposed to have done -- I'm really not interested in any of that. Show me in concrete terms what formal meditation is and how it fundamentally changes anything that is real. ------------------ J: > Actually, I would like for you to tell me the cold hard facts as to why meditation isn't necessary for fulfillment of the Four Noble Truths. ---------------- I have to prove a negative? I would rather say that there is dukkha, the cause of dukkha, the end of dukkha and the path leading to the end of dukkha. Each of these four truths is a cold hard fact; an absolute reality (paramattha dhamma). None of them is a concept. Someone with no knowledge of the Dhamma might say, "Dukkha means suffering; Jesus offered salvation for all who suffered; he taught the same sort of thing." That would be fundamentally and demonstrably wrong. ------------------ J: > What is your reasoning? What are the facts and support from the Pali Canon? Are there posts in the archives or something that lay out the groundwork for this whole school of thought? --------------- I don't know where to begin. It would be better if you would point to a specific part of the teaching and say, "This is proof (or evidence), that formal meditation is the way taught by the Buddha." (There is a post like that from Victor that I haven't replied to yet.) -------------- J: > I have been reading the posts of Jon, Sarah, you and others that speak against meditation practice and I still don't get it. There isn't anything written that is specific enough to pin down as a reason, as I see it. -------------- That is a problem, I agree. These things have been comprehensively explained from many angles. By people who have studied deeply, that is; not so much by me, a raw, non-academically minded beginner. You still say they speak against meditation; I haven't seen them do that. (I may have said a few clumsy, disparaging words but who cares what I say? :-) ) If you haven't grasped their arguments by now -- regardless of whether you agree with them -- then why not? I hope you are not feigning naivete as a debating tactic :-) ? -------------- J: > Could you explain exactly what it is that you do that is supposed to end dukkha? -------------- I know you won't like my answer but I'd like to give it anyway: There is dukkha, its cause, its end and the path. Who mentioned anything about doing something? That sounds unnecessarily cryptic and smug but it's a hard question to answer. -------------- J: > In other words, how are you (or your life) different from anyone else who doesn't know the dhamma? What are you doing that is going to end the round of samsara for yourself (non-self)? --------------- Non-self is the crux of the matter. Do you believe in it? If there is no self, then what is there? If there is no self, then why worry, why bother? Worry and bother are symptoms of ignorance -- ignorance of there being just the four noble truths. If there were just dukkha, its cause, its end and the path, there would be no problem. But we know 'self' and so we think we have to do something. We don't have the option of not doing something while there is this 'self' who is doing the not-doing. First and foremost, let's understand the four noble truths. Kind regards, Ken H 26281 From: Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:05pm Subject: Vism. XIV 27 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 27. And these four kinds of discrimination can be placed in two categories: the plane of the trainer and the plane of the non-trainer. Herein, those of the chief disciples come into the category of the non-trainer' plane. Those of the Elder Aananda, the householder Citta, the layman Dhammika, the householder Upaali, the laywoman Khujjuttaraa, etc., come into the category of the trainer's plane. 26282 From: Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 27 Hi all, Here is the definition for trainer and non-trainer from Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary": sekha: a 'noble learner', a disciple in higher training, i.e. one who pursues the 3 kinds of training (sikkhá, q.v.), is one of those 7 kinds of noble disciples who have reached one of the 4 supermundane paths or the 3 lower fruitions (s. ariya-puggala), while the one possessed of the 4th fruition, or Arahatta-phala, is called 'one beyond training' (asekha, lit. 'no more learner'). The worldling (puthujjana, q.v.) is called 'neither a noble learner, nor perfected in learning' (n'eva-sekha-násekha). Cf. Pug. 23-25. Larry 26283 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:06pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Victor, ----------- V: > I think James has given you a cogent explanation in accordance with the what the Buddha taught. Here I would like to refer to some passages from the Pali Canon, in which the Buddha exhorted bhikkhus to meditate. 371. Meditate, O monk! Do not be heedless. Let not your mind whirl on sensual pleasures. Heedless, do not swallow a red-hot iron ball, lest you cry when burning, "O this is painful!" --------------- As usual, without expert help, I don't know who this sutta was addressed to. Remember, some monks were jhana meditators, some were not. The majority of arahants were not. At least, they weren't prior to attaining enlightenment. That is why they said "We have attained by wisdom alone." If he was talking to jhana meditators, he may have been saying "suppress the hindrances;" that is, after all, what they do. But, jhana was practised before the Buddha's sasana; it, in itself, is not the Middle Way. So the Buddha's conventional-sounding instructions to jhana meditators must be understood in terms of the Middle Way. Just as the Buddha advised meditators to suppress the hindrances, he also advised merchants to be fair and honest; housewives to respect their parents-in-law; just about every category of human being was advised in what, superficially, sounded like the same sensible advice anyone might have given. However, the conventional- sounding advice must always be understood in terms of satipatthana -- something only a Buddha can teach. -------------- V: > 372. There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks insight, and no insight for him who lacks meditative concentration. He in whom are found both meditative concentration and insight, indeed, is close to Nibbana. ------------------ Again, I don't know who this sutta was addressed to. Judging from that extract it could have applied to anyone -- even to me. There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks insight. (OK, so I'll get insight and then I can have meditative concentration.) and no insight for him who lacks meditative concentration. (!!!) Is this a catch 22? No, it is not a catch 22 because the Buddha taught a Middle Way, a way beyond the limits of logic. In the absolute reality that the Buddha discovered and taught, there are only the fleeting mental and physical phenomena of this present moment. If one of those phenomena is insight (right understanding, samma-ditthi, panna), then another of those phenomena will be right concentration (samma-samadhi). Right understanding must exist before there can be right concentration: Even though they arise together, right understanding comes first. This is explained in the laws of conditionality (Paccaya). But those laws also explain how, by another condition, right understanding depends on the co-arising of right concentration. In this way, they can only arise together, in the same moment of consciousness. ----------------- V: > Here is another passage: "Thus, monk, I have taught about the monk engrossed in mastery over learning, about one engrossed in teaching, about one engrossed in recitation, about one engrossed in pondering, and about one who lives by the Dhamma. Whatever should be done by a compassionate teacher who, out of compassion, seeks the welfare of his disciples, that I have done for you. These are the roots of trees, O monk, these are empty huts. Meditate, monk, do not be negligent lest you regret it later. This is our instruction to you." ** --------------- Thanks, this looks like a good source for the steps needed for vipassana, namely: hear, discuss, memorise, consider and "live by" the Dhamma. (I assume that last one means practise satipathana.) Then he adds "These are the roots of trees, O monk, these are empty huts." Was he literally pointing to trees and huts? Or was he saying 'hearing, discussing, memorising, considering and practising satipathana, THESE ARE the roots of trees and empty huts'? The alternative translation you provide says, "Over there are the empty huts." Needless to say, I prefer "these are" but, without expert help, I am only guessing. For vipassana (the teaching of the Buddha), the prerequisite steps are hearing, discussing, remembering, considering, and practising the Dhamma. THESE ARE the Buddhist equivalents of the prerequisite steps for conventional wisdom (jhana) (e.g., dressing in rags, living alone in remote, deserted huts or at the roots of trees.) He may have been pointing to actual huts and trees; for an elite few, both vipassana and jhana were developed, either one at a time or, most rarely, both together. The rest of the quote was, "Meditate, monk, do not be negligent lest you regret it later. This is our instruction to you." I don't know; could this, as you would say, refer to jhana or could it refer to vipassana (the momentary arising of right understanding and right concentration)? Or both? :-) It depends on who he was taking to. Kind regards, Ken H 26284 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sugiarto, apa kabar . Dear Sugiarto, Apa kabar. Welcome to this list. I am always very glad to see Indonesian members, because I lived in Jakarta before. Our moderators are now in Myanmar, but they are back next week and they will give you good tips for beginners on this list. Your English is fine, and we are looking forward if you have remarks and questions. Are you a member of a local Buddhist group? Someone of the very active Bogor group is a member of this list. Looking forward to your input, Nina. op 22-10-2003 09:24 schreef Sugiarto op sugiarto@o...: > Namo Buddhaya... > > Let's me introduces myself first, > My Name is Sugiarto Limawan , Male, 26th years Old, lived in Jakarta- > Indonesia. 26285 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 10:16pm Subject: Meditate oh bhikkhu , Dhammapada 371(Ken and Victor) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > ----------- > Victor: > I think James has given you a cogent explanation in > accordance with the what the Buddha taught. > > Here I would like to refer to some passages from the Pali > Canon, in which the Buddha exhorted bhikkhus to meditate. > > >> 371. Meditate, O monk! Do not be heedless. Let not your > mind whirl on sensual pleasures. Heedless, do not swallow > a red-hot iron ball, lest you cry when burning, "O this >> is painful!" > --------------- > >KEN: As usual, without expert help, I don't know who this > sutta was addressed to. Remember, some monks were jhana > meditators, some were not. The majority of arahants were > not. At least, they weren't prior to attaining > enlightenment. That is why they said "We have attained by > wisdom alone." > > . > > The rest of the quote was, "Meditate, monk, do not be > negligent lest you regret it later. This is our > instruction to you." I don't know; could this, as you > would say, refer to jhana or could it refer to vipassana > (the momentary arising of right understanding and right > concentration)? Or both? :-) It depends on who he was > taking to. > >______ Dear Ken and Victor, I have posted the commentary to this a few times over the last 3 years.When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to know that there are two types. The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." The Atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"endquote Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the actual characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala. THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote Note that some of the first type of jhaya/jhana (the 40 objects for samatha) require a seated position, especially anapanasati. But some of this type of can be developed, at least to some degree, in any position, anytime, such as meditation on death. The second type of jhaya/jhana is that leading out of samsara and that takes the aggregates, paramattha dhammas as object. It can be developed anytime, anyplace. RobertK 26286 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:08am Subject: Re: Meditate oh bhikkhu , Dhammapada 371(Ken and Victor) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Ken and Victor, > I have posted the commentary to this a few times over the last 3 > years.When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to > know that there are two types. > The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." The > Atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of > meditative absorptions" > And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of > meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and > meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" > The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 > note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments > (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on > one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or > Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight > wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the > three characteristics'"endquote > > > Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the > actual > characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to > the vipassana nanas and magga and phala. > THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says > "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of > ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the > mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, > without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider > the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of > the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the > pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that > the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the > causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the > cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote > > Note that some of the first type of jhaya/jhana (the 40 objects for > samatha) require a seated position, especially anapanasati. But some > of this type of can be developed, at least to some degree, in any > position, anytime, such as meditation on death. > The second type of jhaya/jhana is that leading out of samsara and > that takes the aggregates, paramattha dhammas as object. It can be > developed anytime, anyplace. > RobertK Robert K, ab•sorp•tion( b-sôrp sh n, -zôrp -) n. The act or process of absorbing or the condition of being absorbed. A state of mental concentration. Reflecting \Re*flect"ing\, a. Given to reflection or serious consideration. How can it be concluded that "meditative absorptions" might include simply `reflecting' on nama and rupa? They are two entirely different things. It appears that this sutta quote has been filtered through an interpretation by the commentaries and then that commentary has been further filtered through your interpretation…until the end result you present hardly resembles the original source. Metta, James 26287 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:33am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi James and Howard, > > I am behind in my 'messages to reply to' but, judging > from your latest posts, I may have said too much already. > Since the following reply is ready to go, I may as well > post it. > > James, > > Thanks for those cold hard facts, as you see them. You > say the 'Noble Eightfold Path' is one. Is this just some > warm and fuzzy description of just another religion? For > example, is Right Speech the same sort of thing the local > church minister would encourage from his parishioners? > Or, is it a definite, concrete thing with finite, > inherent characteristics? > Hi Ken, Okay, now I think I have a better understanding of your position (and the position of others). I probably understand you better because you are more frank (no I wasn't faking not understanding). This is how I see it (also being frank): You don't consider the Eightfold Path really all that special. Your thinking is like, "Ho hum, who cares?" After all, it isn't really that different from the moral codes of other religions so it must have been directed by the Buddha to those of `wee brains'. Now, when you look at the Abhidhamma and its declaration that all namas/rupas have the characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and non-self, Wow! That is something you can really sink your teeth into! That must be what the Buddha meant for those of `big brains'. Now, since everything has no-self, there isn't anyone or anything that can DO anything. Furthermore, since meditation is definitely doing something, that isn't a practice done by those Buddhists with the `big brains'; that is a practice only performed by those Buddhists with the `wee brains'… who don't understand that there is no-self to meditate anyway. Ken, with this kind of mind-set there is nothing I can say to you. Everything I say will be suspect because I am one of those Buddhists with a `wee brain'. But to those of you who are reading this post who don't have such a mind-set I say: Non-self is an ultimate truth that shouldn't be applied to conventional reality. Just because we ultimately have no self that doesn't mean we don't have to go to work, buy groceries, clean our bodies, and clean our minds (meditate). All of those things must still be done. When there is the final unbinding (parinibbana), then those things can be abandoned. Metta, James 26288 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:05am Subject: Egypt Diary: "I Hate Israel" Hi All, Today there was a Halloween celebration at my school. The classes were shortened and all of the students gathered outside of the school to listen to music and participate in different activities. It is designed to be a fun-filled day for all. It appeared to me that all of the students were enjoying themselves and having a good time; but something happened that somewhat darkened the festivities for me. There was a microphone that one of the Arabic teachers took out into the crowd as a certain song began. One of the senior boys took the microphone and started to sing along with this particular song, to a cheering audience of children. This boy even got on the shoulders of another boy and was singing to the audience with his arms flailing in the air to the beat. All of the children were smiling and singing along to the song, so I could see that they all knew it and that it must be very popular. It had a rather simple rhyme scheme and I could hear the word "Israel" repeated several times throughout the song. I asked one of the Arabic teachers nearby what the boy was singing and she told me, "I hate Israel". I just couldn't believe it! I saw the Principal and asked him if he knew what this song meant; he replied that he didn't know. When I told him the meaning of the song he rolled his eyes and walked away from me like he didn't want to hear. Earlier in the festivities the Principal had stopped a song, in English, because it contained bad language; but this time he didn't do anything. The crowd was whipped up into a frenzy of hating Israel and the Principal just decided to dance along with all of the students. Now, I might be missing something, but I see nothing to dance about and celebrate when it comes to hate. It made me sick to my stomach to see such a display. Obviously, all of the Arabic teachers thought that this song was perfectly acceptable for children to sing and the American principal didn't think anything of it. When is this hating of Israel going to stop in the Middle East? Is it good to teach children to hate anybody? I am saddened and disgusted by what I saw today, and I really don't know who to blame. The Israel/Middle East situation is so gnarled and confusing that I don't know what to think about it: I don't have an opinion, really. But I do know, no matter what, hate is never an appropriate response. Metta, James 26289 From: teoh chee keam Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:51am Subject: Nibbana A Nama? Hi Ken, Howard & all, Let's not be passive. Whoever sow a good seed cultivate a good harvest. I, myself a meditator never discourage anyone not to meditate or persuade anyone to do so, against his freewill. So as not to develop akusala kamma due to the undesireable action even we have good intention towards the deliverance of other puthujjana. If one understand the Dhamma well, one will meditate without being forced to do so, neither setting a goal nor expecting the state of achievement. Because only through meditation, one can investigate the Dhamma as invited by the Buddha (ehipassiko), not to follow a blind faith as emphasized in the Kalama Sutta & reach the final destination (Nibbana). Its up to us to decide & design our future. Our inclination or declination is due to our understanding of the Dhamma, especially the Noble Eight Fold Path. metta, Vijita Teoh 26290 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Hi Victor, Jhana does not eradicate attachment to sensepleasures, it is only temporary peace. Thus, not the highest peace. The monk is not all the time in jhana, he emerges, to take care of his daily routine. The latent tendencies that are not eradicated condiiton the arising of attachment, aversion and delusion. These are the real disturbers of inner peace. We read in the Brahmajaalasutta (D, 1)about heretics who thought that entering the first jhana and following jhanas was the highest nibbana. (B.B. transl p. 86). They believed in a self doing so. Also before the Buddha's time jhana was developed. The Budha's teachers before his enlightenment, Alara and Uddaka, did so. The Buddha gave the development of jhana a deeper dimension: jhana should not be taken for self. Also jhanacitta has the three characteristics of dukkha, impermanence and non-self. Insight has to be developed in order to realize them. That is why he said in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Nines, 36, Musing, that the monk who enters the first jhana should realize: Five khandhas: The five khandhas should be understood as they really are, this leads to the end of dukkha. A gimcrack, a rather strong expression. It is not my interpretation, it is in the sutta. In many suttas the Buddha said, jhana alone is not enough. The right jhana is very difficult, before one realizes it one clings to my jhana or one clings to the peace of jhana, and then it is already the wrong jhana. The wrong jhana may manifest itself as the right one, no end to delusion. Also to Sariputta the Buddha said, jhana should not be taken for self, "I am developing jhana". You also refer to the text: here are the roots of the trees, meditate. We discussed the word meditate with Jim and Sarah before: Pali jhaayati: two meanings: on the meditation subjects of kasinas, etc. and on the three characteristics. It can also be translated as: contemplate. If one translates it as practise jhana it renders only one aspect. Jhaana, sskr dhyaana: to burn or to contemplate. Burning away of defilements and contemplating the meditation subjects or the three characteristics of dhammas. Nina. op 21-10-2003 21:27 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > Let's put aside the differences in our interpretations for now. I > believe that both of us would agree that when a noble > disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how > sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and > much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains to > the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, > apart from unwholesome states, then he is no longer attracted to > sensual pleasures. 26291 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:48am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Ken, Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I understand that you have doubt about what the Buddha said in those quotes, and that is ok. I would still encourage you to meditate; however, I understand that to meditate or not is your choice that I can not force upon you. I believe that both of us have the goal to realize the cessation of dukkha. I believe that both of us can agree that to realize the cessation of dukkha, right concentration, along with other factors in the Noble Eightfold Path, is necessary. To develop right concentration, I would encourage you to meditate, in particular, to take up the practice of mindfulness of breathing, as the Buddha taught in Majjhima Nikaya 118 Anapanasati Sutta Mindfulness of Breathing http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html If you think that the mindfulness of breathing is the least appropriate for you, you might find the practice of brahmavihara more suitable to you: Anguttara Nikaya VIII.63 Sankhitta Sutta In Brief http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-063.html I hope you find these discourses helpful for your meditation practice in developing right concentration. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, 26292 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 11:27am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi James, Thanks for the reminder, going to groceries, also that is conditioned. Reminds me of the satipatthanasutta: when walking standing, etc. Only elements, but we forget, we are indeed slow wits. It is still, I am going to the groceries. We have to lead our normal daily life, but some understanding can be developed while going along. Why are we going? So many conditions are involved. Why do we live? Because there is still ignorance and clinging. Nina. op 23-10-2003 11:33 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > But to those of you who are reading this post who > don't have such a mind-set I say: Non-self is an ultimate truth that > shouldn't be applied to conventional reality. Just because we > ultimately have no self that doesn't mean we don't have to go to > work, buy groceries, clean our bodies, and clean our minds > (meditate). All of those things must still be done. When there is > the final unbinding (parinibbana), then those things can be abandoned. 26293 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Hi Nina, Thank you for your reply. Let's go back the point where our exchange on this thread started: we have different interpretations about the phrase "or to something more peaceful than that" from the passage "Mahanama, there is still a state unabandoned by you internally, owing to which at times states of greed, hate, and delusion invade your mind and remain; for were that state already abandoned by you internally you would not be living the home life, you would not be enjoying sensual pleasures. It is because that state is unabandoned by you internally that you are living the home life and enjoying sensual pleasures. "Even though a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, as long as he still does not attain to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, he may still be attracted to sensual pleasures. But when a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasures. * I suggested that we put aside the differences in our interpretations for now. Given what the Buddha said in the passage above, I would suggest that let's reach an accord in understanding that when a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasures. Peace, Victor * Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi, trans., _The Middle Length Discourses fo the Buddha: a new translation of the Majjhima Nikaya_, p. 186-7. 26294 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:50pm Subject: Re: Meditate oh bhikkhu , Dhammapada 371(Ken and Victor) Hi Robert, Thank you for this post. Although you made a few references to the commentary, I don't see how your ideas can be inferred from what the Buddha taught. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: [snip] > Dear Ken and Victor, [snip] 26295 From: Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 11:36am Subject: Femininity and Masculinity Faculties Hi all - A couple items to be found in Abhidhamma, femininity and masculinity, are among the things that some "modern folks" (like me ;-) tend to look askance at. In this regard, for any folks who find these notions questionable, I think the following CNN article might be of interest: http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/10/20/sexuality.brain.reut/index.html My god! Soon they'll be finding a life faculty (jivitindriya) also!! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26296 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:50pm Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: "I Hate Israel" Hi James and all, The situation in the Middle East, particularly the relation between Israelis and Palestinian people, and the situation in Iraq, is in a state of misery. Hatred breeds more hatred, and violence, state or otherwise, begets more violence. I believe that situation will improve if more people, from political and religious leaders to ordinary citizens, come to this realization as expressed in the following verse from Dhammapada: 5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp1/01.html This is a message that you can bring to your students. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi All, [snip] 26297 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:45pm Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: "I Hate Israel" Friend James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Today there was a Halloween celebration at my school. The classes > were shortened and all of the students gathered outside of the school > to listen to music and participate in different activities. It is > designed to be a fun-filled day for all. It appeared to me that all > of the students were enjoying themselves and having a good time; but > something happened that somewhat darkened the festivities for me. > > There was a microphone that one of the Arabic teachers took out into > the crowd as a certain song began. One of the senior boys took the > microphone and started to sing along with this particular song, to a > cheering audience of children. This boy even got on the shoulders of > another boy and was singing to the audience with his arms flailing in > the air to the beat. All of the children were smiling and singing > along to the song, so I could see that they all knew it and that it > must be very popular. It had a rather simple rhyme scheme and I > could hear the word "Israel" repeated several times throughout the > song. I asked one of the Arabic teachers nearby what the boy was > singing and she told me, "I hate Israel". I just couldn't believe it! > > I saw the Principal and asked him if he knew what this song meant; he > replied that he didn't know. When I told him the meaning of the song > he rolled his eyes and walked away from me like he didn't want to > hear. Earlier in the festivities the Principal had stopped a song, in > English, because it contained bad language; but this time he didn't > do anything. The crowd was whipped up into a frenzy of hating Israel > and the Principal just decided to dance along with all of the > students. Now, I might be missing something, but I see nothing to > dance about and celebrate when it comes to hate. It made me sick to > my stomach to see such a display. > > Obviously, all of the Arabic teachers thought that this song was > perfectly acceptable for children to sing and the American principal > didn't think anything of it. When is this hating of Israel going to > stop in the Middle East? Is it good to teach children to hate > anybody? I am saddened and disgusted by what I saw today, and I > really don't know who to blame. The Israel/Middle East situation is > so gnarled and confusing that I don't know what to think about it: I > don't have an opinion, really. But I do know, no matter what, hate > is never an appropriate response. Twenty five years ago, I was living in Canada and my girlfriend was Egyptian. At one time, a friend of the family was visiting from Cairo. The friend was charming and intelligent (multiple degrees). She was an editor for the Al-Haram, a popular Arabic newspaper. While the friend was visiting, we went as a group to see a movie, "Chariots of Fire". As we returned home from the movie, I commented that it was an excellent film (I think it won the Oscar for best film that year). The visitor from Cairo sneered, "Jewish propoganda!" I then realized that the protagonist (an underprividged runner trying to make it to the Olympics) was Jewish. I realized that, in spite of her "intellgience", she did not have much "wisdom". She was very much a creature of her accumulaitons. Consider the Buddha immediately after His enlightenment. When He surveyed the world, I am sure that He understood the magnitude of the task in front of Him (even worse than the current Middle East situation). The Mahmabrahma reminded him that there were beings with less dust in their eyes and the Buddha went forth to teach the Dhamma. James, perhaps you can reflect on what you have seen as indicative of how deep accumulations are; rather than reflect with dosa, this reflection might be able to galvanize your own commitment to move against the stream of your own accumulations to deepen your own practice. Metta, Rob M :-) 26298 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:45pm Subject: Re: Nibbana A Nama? Hi Vijita Teoh, You wrote: --------------- Let's not be passive. Whoever sow a good seed cultivate a good harvest. I, myself a meditator never discourage anyone not to meditate or persuade anyone to do so, against his freewill. --------------- Agreed. Even when we are trying to discuss Dhamma, we can fall into the trap of making accusions and attributing blame. But unwholesome speech only makes matters worse; if we think someone has wrong understanding then there is all the more reason for right speech. ----------------- VT: > So as not to develop akusala kamma due to the undesireable action even we have good intention towards the deliverance of other puthujjana. If one understand the Dhamma well, one will meditate without being forced to do so, neither setting a goal nor expecting the state of achievement. ----------------- Yes, that would be one result of right understanding. ----------------- VT: > Because only through meditation, one can investigate the Dhamma as invited by the Buddha (ehipassiko), not to follow a blind faith as emphasized in the Kalama Sutta & reach the final destination (Nibbana). ------------------ Actually, the only meditation I am interested in is the momentary, conditioned arising of wholesome consciousness (kusala-citta), accompanied by the mental factor, right understanding (panna). This requires a lot of wholesome conditions but, as I understand it, not necessarily any 'formal' meditation. ------------------ V: > Its up to us to decide & design our future. Our inclination or declination is due to our understanding of the Dhamma, especially the Noble Eight Fold Path. ---------------- Agreed. Thank you. Kind regards, Ken H 26299 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:49pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi James, We seem to be understanding each other a little better - - except in some areas such as 'comparative brain sizes:' ----------- J: > Now, when you look at the Abhidhamma That must be what the Buddha meant for those of `big brains'. Furthermore, since meditation is definitely doing something, that isn't a practice done by those Buddhists with the `big brains'; that is a practice only performed by those Buddhists with the `wee brains' ------------- You have missed the point about brain sizes as it has been made here on dsg. As I understand the explanations, Abhidhamma is required for the slow witted. Only the quick witted can go straight on to the Suttanta. That doesn't relate to any difference between you and me. As I understand the point, we are both 'slow witted.' The fact that we appreciate the importance of the suttas, must mean that we are not entirely slow witted. However, we are not so quick as to hear them once and attain enlightenment. In fact, we continually misunderstand them. And we needn't think that meditation will fix that. Concentration with wrong understanding only produces concentrated wrong understanding. We have to face the fact that, as slow-witted types, we need the painstakingly precise language of the Abhidhamma to explain the often imprecise (conventional), language of the suttas. Kind regards, Ken H 26300 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:54pm Subject: Re: Meditate oh bhikkhu , Dhammapada 371(Ken and Victor) Hi Robert, Thank you for injecting some facts into the discussion. Keep posting that quote and, in another three years, I might remember it. :-) As I have just mentioned to James, I need a lot of Abhidhamma; Even what you have written here in straightforward language, was not, at first, straightforward enough for me: RK: > "The second type of jhaya/jhana is that leading out of samsara and that takes the aggregates, paramattha dhammas as object. It can be developed anytime, anyplace." That temporarily led me to the interpretation that there was a living being who could develop jhaya and that there really were such things as places and times. It's crazy I know but, for my slow wits, every little thing has to be spelt out in painful detail. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 26301 From: Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Egypt Diary: "I Hate Israel" Hi, Rob & James - I was so impressed by your letter, James, expressing your heartfelt abhorrence of anger and hatred, and, Rob - what a wonderful, compassionate, and useful reply. You both impress me so much; you take a lead in being among the many here who make me proud to be a subscriber to DSG. With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/23/03 9:47:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Friend James, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > >Today there was a Halloween celebration at my school. The classes > >were shortened and all of the students gathered outside of the > school > >to listen to music and participate in different activities. It is > >designed to be a fun-filled day for all. It appeared to me that > all > >of the students were enjoying themselves and having a good time; > but > >something happened that somewhat darkened the festivities for me. > > > >There was a microphone that one of the Arabic teachers took out > into > >the crowd as a certain song began. One of the senior boys took > the > >microphone and started to sing along with this particular song, to > a > >cheering audience of children. This boy even got on the shoulders > of > >another boy and was singing to the audience with his arms flailing > in > >the air to the beat. All of the children were smiling and singing > >along to the song, so I could see that they all knew it and that > it > >must be very popular. It had a rather simple rhyme scheme and I > >could hear the word "Israel" repeated several times throughout the > >song. I asked one of the Arabic teachers nearby what the boy was > >singing and she told me, "I hate Israel". I just couldn't believe > it! > > > >I saw the Principal and asked him if he knew what this song meant; > he > >replied that he didn't know. When I told him the meaning of the > song > >he rolled his eyes and walked away from me like he didn't want to > >hear. Earlier in the festivities the Principal had stopped a song, > in > >English, because it contained bad language; but this time he > didn't > >do anything. The crowd was whipped up into a frenzy of hating > Israel > >and the Principal just decided to dance along with all of the > >students. Now, I might be missing something, but I see nothing to > >dance about and celebrate when it comes to hate. It made me sick > to > >my stomach to see such a display. > > > >Obviously, all of the Arabic teachers thought that this song was > >perfectly acceptable for children to sing and the American > principal > >didn't think anything of it. When is this hating of Israel going > to > >stop in the Middle East? Is it good to teach children to hate > >anybody? I am saddened and disgusted by what I saw today, and I > >really don't know who to blame. The Israel/Middle East situation > is > >so gnarled and confusing that I don't know what to think about it: > I > >don't have an opinion, really. But I do know, no matter what, > hate > >is never an appropriate response. > > > Twenty five years ago, I was living in Canada and my girlfriend was > Egyptian. At one time, a friend of the family was visiting from > Cairo. The friend was charming and intelligent (multiple degrees). > She was an editor for the Al-Haram, a popular Arabic newspaper. > While the friend was visiting, we went as a group to see a > movie, "Chariots of Fire". As we returned home from the movie, I > commented that it was an excellent film (I think it won the Oscar > for best film that year). The visitor from Cairo sneered, "Jewish > propoganda!" I then realized that the protagonist (an underprividged > runner trying to make it to the Olympics) was Jewish. I realized > that, in spite of her "intellgience", she did not have > much "wisdom". She was very much a creature of her accumulaitons. > > Consider the Buddha immediately after His enlightenment. When He > surveyed the world, I am sure that He understood the magnitude of > the task in front of Him (even worse than the current Middle East > situation). The Mahmabrahma reminded him that there were beings with > less dust in their eyes and the Buddha went forth to teach the > Dhamma. > > James, perhaps you can reflect on what you have seen as indicative > of how deep accumulations are; rather than reflect with dosa, this > reflection might be able to galvanize your own commitment to move > against the stream of your own accumulations to deepen your own > practice. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26302 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:10am Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: "I Hate Israel" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Friend James, > Twenty five years ago, I was living in Canada and my girlfriend was > Egyptian. At one time, a friend of the family was visiting from > Cairo. The friend was charming and intelligent (multiple degrees). > She was an editor for the Al-Haram, a popular Arabic newspaper. > While the friend was visiting, we went as a group to see a > movie, "Chariots of Fire". As we returned home from the movie, I > commented that it was an excellent film (I think it won the Oscar > for best film that year). The visitor from Cairo sneered, "Jewish > propoganda!" I then realized that the protagonist (an underprividged > runner trying to make it to the Olympics) was Jewish. I realized > that, in spite of her "intellgience", she did not have > much "wisdom". She was very much a creature of her accumulaitons. > > Consider the Buddha immediately after His enlightenment. When He > surveyed the world, I am sure that He understood the magnitude of > the task in front of Him (even worse than the current Middle East > situation). The Mahmabrahma reminded him that there were beings with > less dust in their eyes and the Buddha went forth to teach the > Dhamma. > > James, perhaps you can reflect on what you have seen as indicative > of how deep accumulations are; rather than reflect with dosa, this > reflection might be able to galvanize your own commitment to move > against the stream of your own accumulations to deepen your own > practice. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Hi Rob (and Victor), I am not so sure that what I witnessed was the manifestation of accumulations; I saw it as the manifestation of conditioning. These children weren't born to hate Israel, they have been taught this horrible thinking. I am not sure what `dosa' means but I am going to assume from the context that it isn't good…maybe it means `aversion'? My reaction to what I saw was quick and immediate, and not long lasting. At first I felt strong aversion, which I think was a natural reaction. These are students in my school and I feel a sense of responsibility for them. When I see them dancing and joyfully singing about hating Israel, I feel like I am failing them…and maybe I am…maybe we all are. My next reaction after the aversion was a resolve to do something about this hate. As Victor suggests, it is my responsibility to try to teach my students that hate isn't appropriate. We have been discussing inequality among men and women around the world (another big problem in the Middle East) in my classes, now I am going to begin to insert discussions about anti- semitism whenever possible. I won't be able to change all of Egypt, or even all of my students, but I hope to make some small difference toward developing good wherever I can; perhaps in this way I can, as you suggest, 'deepen' my practice. Metta, James 26303 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Egypt Diary: "I Hate Israel" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob & James - > > I was so impressed by your letter, James, expressing your heartfelt > abhorrence of anger and hatred, and, Rob - what a wonderful, compassionate, and > useful reply. You both impress me so much; you take a lead in being among the > many here who make me proud to be a subscriber to DSG. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, Thank you for the kind words, but if anyone deserves them most I think it would be you. Metta, James 26304 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:23am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi James, > > We seem to be understanding each other a little better - > - except in some areas such as 'comparative brain sizes:' > ----------- > J: > Now, when you look at the Abhidhamma That > must be what the Buddha meant for those of `big brains'. > Furthermore, since meditation is definitely doing > something, that isn't a practice done by those Buddhists > with the `big brains'; that is a practice only performed > by those Buddhists with the `wee brains' > ------------- > > You have missed the point about brain sizes as it has > been made here on dsg. As I understand the explanations, > Abhidhamma is required for the slow witted. Only the > quick witted can go straight on to the Suttanta. That > doesn't relate to any difference between you and me. As > I understand the point, we are both 'slow witted.' Hi Ken, I was being kinda tongue-in-cheek with the `brain size' comparison in order to make a point. Now I am confused again about the `official' position. You state that the Abhidhamma is for the slow witted and the suttas are for the quick witted. This runs contrary to many posts I have read here. I have read Nina, Sarah, Jon, and others write about how only those with the right accumulations and the right level of `Panna' (wisdom) will be attracted to the Abhidhamma, and I was pretty sure that they weren't speaking in the negative. Even the title "Abhidhamma" means "Higher Dhamma"; `Higher' usually means above or greater. How does this correlate with what you are saying? Metta, James 26305 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:21am Subject: Compassion Hi All, Modern society focuses on the external, so it is natural to feel compassion toward one who is physically sick or destitute. One who understands the Dhamma focuses on the internal; they feel compassion toward all beings as all beings are bound to samsara and subject to the first noble truth (dukkha). The Visuddhimagga suggests that one can arouse compassion toward a person, even though they may be happy. This is done by imagining a criminal being led to execution. As this criminal is paraded through the streets, people feel sorry for the criminal and offer him good food as he passes by. The criminal may be momentarily happy enjoying the good food, but the people in the street feel compassion as they know his fate. We can consider that, with each day passing, we are all one day closer to our death. Though they may be momentarily happy, evil-doers are destined for an unfortunate rebirth and deserve our compassion. Consider the poor children of the Middle East. Each day, they are being taught to hate. As Buddhists, we know what fate lies in store for those who hate. These children are wasting this precious human existence. Though they may be momentarily happy, they are deserving of our compassion. Compassion has as its near enemy "grief, based on the homelife". This means dosa (aversion) based on worldly events. The nature of compassion is that it is accompanied by a pleasant or neutral feeling, never an unpleasant feeling. Karuna, Rob M :-) 26306 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:54am Subject: Re: Femininity and Masculinity Faculties Dear Howard How are you? Thank you for the CNN link with the article. So femininity and masculinity are pre-hormonal workings of the genes in embryonic brain! With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi all - A couple items to be found in Abhidhamma, femininity and masculinity, are among the things that some "modern folks" (like me ;-) tend to look askance at. In this regard, for any folks who find these notions questionable, I think the following CNN article might be of interest: http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/10/20/sexuality.brain.reut/index.html My god! Soon they'll be finding a life faculty (jivitindriya) also!! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26307 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:55am Subject: Re: Femininity and Masculinity Faculties Dear Howard How are you? Thank you for the CNN link with the article. So femininity and masculinity are pre-hormonal workings of the genes in embryonic brain! With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi all - A couple items to be found in Abhidhamma, femininity and masculinity, are among the things that some "modern folks" (like me ;-) tend to look askance at. In this regard, for any folks who find these notions questionable, I think the following CNN article might be of interest: http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/10/20/sexuality.brain.reut/index.html My god! Soon they'll be finding a life faculty (jivitindriya) also!! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26308 From: Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Compassion Hi, Rob - In a message dated 10/24/03 8:22:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi All, > > Modern society focuses on the external, so it is natural to feel > compassion toward one who is physically sick or destitute. One who > understands the Dhamma focuses on the internal; they feel compassion > toward all beings as all beings are bound to samsara and subject to > the first noble truth (dukkha). > > The Visuddhimagga suggests that one can arouse compassion toward a > person, even though they may be happy. This is done by imagining a > criminal being led to execution. As this criminal is paraded through > the streets, people feel sorry for the criminal and offer him good > food as he passes by. The criminal may be momentarily happy enjoying > the good food, but the people in the street feel compassion as they > know his fate. We can consider that, with each day passing, we are > all one day closer to our death. Though they may be momentarily > happy, evil-doers are destined for an unfortunate rebirth and > deserve our compassion. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, this could be useful imagining, so long as one doesn't include in that imagined scenario the recollection of those onlookers not offering succor, but jeering the condemned and cheering at their being taken off for destruction, something readily seen throughout the world including, unfortunately, the good old U.S. of A. in some news editorials and in some church and synagogue and mosque sermons. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Consider the poor children of the Middle East. Each day, they are > being taught to hate. As Buddhists, we know what fate lies in store > for those who hate. These children are wasting this precious human > existence. Though they may be momentarily happy, they are deserving > of our compassion. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. Indeed. The felt hatred is, itself, already a form of extreme suffering,and it leads to further terrible consequences. Unfortunately, when and if hatred leads to the point that parents are willing to let their children blow themselves up "for the cause" and take other lives with them, many, many of which are innocent lives as regards the current situation, there is enormous need for good people to react with compassion, and without hate, though also simultaneously to actively take all appropriate precautions to protect the innocent. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Compassion has as its near enemy "grief, based on the homelife". > This means dosa (aversion) based on worldly events. The nature of > compassion is that it is accompanied by a pleasant or neutral > feeling, never an unpleasant feeling. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Might that be "far enemy"? My impression was that the near enemy of compassion is pity. ------------------------------------------------------- > > Karuna, > Rob M :-) > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26309 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:03am Subject: Yahoo Is Playing Up! Re: Femininity and masculinity Thread Dear Dhamma friends I just replied to Howard's thread Femininity and masculinity thread. Even though I posted my reply only once, my reply post appeared twice! I also got Page Expire message. After refreshing the page as instructed, I saw my reply post appearing twice. With regards, Suan 26310 From: Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:10am Subject: Solar Flares (Re: [dsg] Yahoo Is Playing Up! ) Hi, Suan - In a message dated 10/24/03 9:04:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > > Dear Dhamma friends > > I just replied to Howard's thread Femininity and masculinity thread. > > Even though I posted my reply only once, my reply post appeared twice! > > I also got Page Expire message. After refreshing the page as > instructed, I saw my reply post appearing twice. > > With regards, > > Suan > =========================== I just read that there are some solar flares that may affect cell-phone and other communications today (Friday). Perhaps this includes an impact on the internet. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26311 From: monomuni Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 8:28pm Subject: Thornless ... Friends: Delight in Seclusion: For one delighting in seclusion, delight in society is a thorn. For one devoted to reflection on disgust, the sign of beauty is a thorn. For one controlling the senses, the seeing of shows is a thorn. For one living the Noble Life, association with women is a thorn. For the 1st meditative Jhana absorption, Noise is a thorn. For the 2nd meditative Jhana absorption, Thought is a thorn. For the 3rd meditative Jhana absorption, Joy is a thorn. For the 4th meditative Jhana absorption, Breathing is a thorn. For the attainment of Cessation, Perception & Feeling is a thorn. Greed is a Thorn. Hate is a Thorn. Confusion is a Thorn. Be Thornless, Bhikkhus & Friends. Abide freed from Thorns. Thornless are the Arahats. Freed from Thorns are the Arahats. --oo0oo-- Source: Anguttara Nikaya V 135 Friendship is truly GREATEST ... For Gladdening of Good People !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Whosoever rejects the words of the noble, righteous Arahants, such a fool, because of his false views, brings forth on his head ruin and destruction, like the banana-tree which dies when it has borne fruit. Random Dhammapada Verse 164 26312 From: monomuni Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 4:05am Subject: Exactly at that Moment! Friends: The Breath Meditator knows his exact moment of Death: An elder brother at Mihintale Monastery, here on Sri Lanka, once went, after having recited the Vinaya code on a full-moon night, to his hut followed by a number of bhikkhus. There, standing on the terrace path, looking at the moonlight, he considered his span of life & then asked the brothers: ‘In how many ways have you previously seen brothers attain complete quenching ?’ Some answered: ‘Previously we have seen brothers reach perfect extinction sitting cross-legged in their seats.’ Others answered: ‘Previously we have seen brothers be fully released by burning up without smoke nor ash, while sitting elevated in the air.’ The elder then answered: Then, I will show you complete liberation, while walking to & fro ! He then drew a line across the sand of the terrace path and said: ‘I will go to the other end & return. When I reach this line, exactly then & right there, will I achieve supreme Nibbana.’ So saying did he walk down & turned around. At the exact moment his foot touched the line, he realized absolute freedom ... Yeah! --oo0oo-- Source: The Path of Purification. The Classic Meditation Manual: VisuddhiMagga by Buddhaghosa. The 'Explainer' of the 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=771100 Friendship is truly GREATEST ... For Gladdening of Good People !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Whosoever in this world is overcome by this base craving, this clinging (to sense objects), his sorrows grow like Birana grass after rain. Random Dhammapada Verse 335 26313 From: monomuni Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 3:02am Subject: Queen Maya’s Dream! Friends: Queen Maya’s Dream of the White Elephant: The day Queen May conceived the Buddha, she had taken part in a 7 day festival. On the 7th day she rose quite early, bathed in perfumed water, adorned herself with best jewelry, enjoyed a delicious meal & gave great alms spending 400.000! Then she withdraw to her ornamented bedchamber, set her mind firmly on the 8 Uposatha vows & there on the royal couch she fell asleep & dreamt the following Dream: She experienced, that the four Guardian Deities lifted her up, bed & all & carried her to the Himalayas, where they sat her down on a plateau of red arsenic under a mighty Sal tree. Then their concubines came & took her to lake Anottata, bathed her gently, anointed her with divine perfume, dressed her in heavenly clothing & adorned her with celestial flowers. Then they took her to the nearby silver mountain with the golden cave. There they left her on a divine couch with her head facing East. The Boddhisatta appearing as a Magnificent & Majestic White Elephant, carrying a White Lotus in his trunk, then trumpeted triumphantly from the nearby golden mountain. Approaching from the North, he went respectfully around his mother's bed thrice. Then it appeared as though he entered his mother's womb through an opening on the right side. Thus did he take conception under the asterism of Asalha. The Buddha much later explained to Sariputta: There are four kinds of people: Those who enter, stay & leave the womb unaware of it. Those who enter the womb knowing it, but stay and leave unaware. Those who enter & stay in the womb knowing it, yet leave unaware. Those who enter, stay & leave the womb knowing it, fully aware of it! --oo0oo-- Source: Jataka Nidana. Friendship is truly GREATEST ... For Gladdening of Good People !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ He who has passed beyong this quagmire, this difficult path, the ocean of life (samsara), and delusion, who has crossed and gone beyond, who is meditative, free from craving and doubts, who clinging to naught, has attained Nibbana, - him I call a Brahmana. Random Dhammapada Verse 414 26314 From: nordwest Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: "I Hate Israel" Dear James, I lived 32 years, thefirst half of my life, In Austria / Europe. I've been several times to Israel and many other countries in Europe and lived there a short time with the people, not as a tourist. Europe is very different from the USA, because of it's ancient culture. America's ancient culture, the Natives, has been suppressed or even wiped out, but in Europe it's still all over the place intermingeling in thousand ways in everyday life. Preoccupations were created over hundreds of years and are passed on from partens to childs. Every cultural group had a war there with any other land in the world. In the medieval times in Austria and Germany there was a civil war that endured 30 years! The farmers were fighting against the landlords with primitve farmer's tools instead of weapons, we can still see this in European museums. First the Nordic people terrorized the seas, than the Roman Empire invaded Europe, than there were the Christian wars to convert the Middle East, than the Turkish invaded mid-Europe, in the Middle East the Egyptians and the others always gave Israelis a hrad time, and then the first and second world war not long ago, where Millions of Jewhish (Israelis) were slaughtered. And so in Europe if you talk to people, they are still aware that war could happen any time. Unlike the USA, the wars happend - similiar like 9/11 all on homeground. Many Europeans are very proud of former historic events, and considering what price each cultural group, each land, has payed over the last 2000 years, it's no wonder that some strange behaviors developed... and preoccupations, great many! Europeans are very sceptical towards other people in general, and especially towards other cultures, they'd rather stick to their kind. Too much great cultures had been torn apart by wars. People in central Europe are daily reminded in everydays life by ruins, old castles etc. that life is perishable, nothing lasts. Unfortunately they draw the wrong conclusions out of this, they get nearsighted and clng even more to life and to traditions and old stories about hate and ignorance. Gassho, Thomas buddhatrue wrote: Hi All, Today there was a Halloween celebration at my school. The classes were shortened and all of the students gathered outside of the school ... The Israel/Middle East situation is so gnarled and confusing that I don't know what to think about it: I don't have an opinion, really. But I do know, no matter what, hate is never an appropriate response. 26315 From: monomuni Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:34am Subject: Deepavali Day ! Friends; Today is Deepavali Day: An ancient Hindu festival of Light, Peace & Goodwill! May we all rejoice! --oo0oo-- When one with a mind of Goodwill, kindly understands the entire world, just above so below and all across, unlimited, vast, immense & everywhere: Just as a mother even with her own life protects her only child, so let one cultivate infinite sympathy towards all living beings... Thus the one who both day and night cultivates joyous harmlessness, sharing amity with all that breathes, such one finds enmity with none ... J 37 & S I 208 --oo0oo-- May all the infinite number of sentient beings, without even any single hidden exception, in all 31 forms of individual existence, residing in the 3 realms, of inconceivable number, extending in space infinitely in all 10 directions, enduring eternally through all past, present & future time, to an absolutely complete, infinite and endless degree, develop Goodwill and beam Friendship towards all Beings ... --oo0oo-- Friendliness (Metta) is the ninth perfection (parami) Come on now friends! This One is the ninth one to adopt, practice, develop, refine & perfect resolutely: As water cleans & cools both the evil & the good, refresh both the friend & enemy equally with Friendly Goodwill, then a Buddha's knowledge shall be yours! Jataka Nidana --oo0oo-- Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ If no wound there be in one's hand, one may carry poison in it. Poison does not affect one who has no wound. There is no ill for him who does no wrong. Random Dhammapada Verse 124 26316 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Compassion Hi Howard, > > > > Compassion has as its near enemy "grief, based on the homelife". > > This means dosa (aversion) based on worldly events. The nature of > > compassion is that it is accompanied by a pleasant or neutral > > feeling, never an unpleasant feeling. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Might that be "far enemy"? My impression was that the near enemy of > compassion is pity. > ------------------------------------------------------- Each of the Four Sublime States has a "far enemy" and a "near enemy". The far enemy is easy to identify as it is an opposite. The "near enemy" is much more dangerous as it "masquerades as a friend" and can easily be mistaken for a sublime state. Metta ===== The far enemy of metta is ill will. The near enemy of metta is selfish affection, attachment. We should find out whether we want to be kind only to people who we particularly like, or whether we are kind to whomever we meet, because we are truly concerned for his welfare. From our own experience we can learn to see the difference between loving kindness and selfish affection. When there is loving kindness we do not think of our own enjoyment in someone's company. Karuna ====== The far enemy of karuna is cruelty. The near enemy of karuna is aversion (based on worldly events). When we see someone else who is in miserable circumstances, there tend to be moments of compassion when we wish to help to allay his suffering and there can also be moments of aversion about his suffering. Howard, if you would define "pity" as "aversion to another's suffering", then we are saying the same thing. Mudita ====== The far enemy of mudita is aversion (boredom). The near enemy of mudita is joy based on the home life, as both share in seeing success. When we say to someone else: "What a beautiful garden you have", there may be moments of sympathetic joy, sincere approval of his good fortune, but there may also be moments with attachment to pleasant objects. Upekkha ======= The far enemies of upekkha are greed and resentment. The near enemy of upekkha is ignorance. One may think that there is equanimity when, in fact, we are simply ignoring. The Buddha (AN V.161) gave the following five methods for removing annoyance with other people: 1. Loving-kindness can be maintained towards a person. 2. Compassion can be maintained towards a person. 3. Equanimity can be maintained towards a person. 4. The forgetting and ignoring of a person can be practiced. 5. Ownership of deeds in a person can be concentrated upon, "This good person is owner of his deeds, heir to his deeds, his deeds are the womb from which he is born, his deeds are his kin for whom he is responsible, his deeds are his refuge, he is heir to his deeds, be they good or bad." The commentary (Anguttara Atthakatha) notes that mudita is not mentioned because it is difficult to practice mudita with those who annoy us. It is interesting that the Buddha included point #4 as a point separate from equanimity (and might be interpreted as the near enemy of equanimity). It is also interesting that point #5 is in fact, the contemplation used to develop the state of equanimity. Metta, Rob M :-) 26317 From: bodhi342 Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Dear RobertK, > I think you make some good points. Thanks. I was hoping we would actually discuss contemporary attitudes of students, but it looks like you prefer to revert to the Teachers themselves: > Probably the best step to take would be if you write about any > other teachings or religions that you find equal to the teaching of > the Buddha in wisdom etc. To paraphrase: Who can even measure up to the wisdom of my own teacher? Presumably, the only 'acceptable' response would be: "No one else possibly could"! After all, how many devout followers of a Guide would be comfortable even considering the possibility of co-equals, let alone superiors; especially when dismissing all else as inferior, is so appealing to the ego? How many even on dsg? However, the same question can be asked by a Christian about Jesus; a Jew about Moses; a Muslim about Muhammad; a Taoist about Lao Tan; and so on. In fact, it could be asked about each of the teachers who we know of ever speaking about realizing the ultimate reality. We can easily guess the answers that almost all these students would insist on. Yet a survey of the whole scene reveals a problem - the answers are all different, depending on their particular biases. Therefore, who is qualified to make this judgment? The potential judge would need these minimum qualifications: 1. Absence of any bias; 2. Complete first-hand knowledge of the paths being compared by having traveled faithfully on each (more valid than intellectual assumptions based on centuries old hearsay in many cases); 3. Having realized the ultimate reality i.e. having reached the destination by those paths. Do you know of anyone so qualified to compare any two, let alone make a global judgment? I do not. Without offending anyone, we should also consider excluding the master teachers themselves. Why? Because it is exceedingly unlikely any of them has such qualifications. Most concentrated on their own path, a precious few considered the validity of other paths. What chance has the average spiritual explorer today of making a sound discriminant judgment? > Otherwise it is speculation that there are such teachers. Of course there has never been, nor is likely to be, anyone such as the Buddha...... or Jesus, or Lao Tan, etc. They are as unique, as the individual mountain guides expert in their own paths up to the ultimate view at the peak. Choose according to your taste, but no need to reject the existence or expertise of the others you have not chosen. The same applies to the path - easier, faster, safer, wiser - all illusory details along the way, irrelevant once you have reached the destination. It is the destination, NOT the path, NOR the guide, that is of the ultimate importance. If we focus on that, we may become much less attached to the path, the guide, or ourselves. They then become what they always were - practical necessities for the journey - nothing more, nothing less. We should clearly see defense of one's own path and guide, and denial of others, as based on attachment - something warned against by almost all the enduring teachings that we know of today. My only intention is to warn against the well-disguised hurdle of contemporary conceit along the path - any path, with any guide - always to the same destination. metta, dharam 26318 From: Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Compassion Hi, Rob - In a message dated 10/24/03 10:50:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Karuna > ====== > The far enemy of karuna is cruelty. The near enemy of karuna is > aversion (based on worldly events). When we see someone else who is > in miserable circumstances, there tend to be moments of compassion > when we wish to help to allay his suffering and there can also be > moments of aversion about his suffering. Howard, if you would > define "pity" as "aversion to another's suffering", then we are > saying the same thing. > ========================= Yes, I understand pity as a kind of compassion defiled by both aversion and a sense of separation from the object of that pity (and even, at times, carrying an element of contempt) rather than loving identification. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26319 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 10:44am Subject: New Photos of Myanmar Hi All, We have all just arrived back from Myanmar. It was a great trip. Happy to be able to access dsg again. I have uploaded some photos from our trip. Hope you will all enjoy viewing them. Metta, Sukin. 26320 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 11:12am Subject: Tiika Vis. 23 Tiika Vis. 23. Relevant text Vis. 23 23. "Law" (dhamma) is briefly a term for a condition (paccaya). For since a condition necessitates (dahati) whatever it may be, makes it occur or allows it to happen, it is therefore called 'law' (dhamma). But in particular the five things, namely,(i) any cause that produces fruit, (ii) the noble path, (iii) what is spoken, (iv) what is profitable, and (v) what is unprofitable, should be understood as "law". When anyone reviews that law, any knowledge of his, falling within the category concerned with the law, is the "discrimination of law". 23. dhammotipi sa"nkhepato paccayasseta.m adhivacana.m. paccayo hi yasmaa ta.m ta.m dahati pavatteti vaa sampaapu.nitu.m vaa deti, pabhedato pana yo koci phalanibbattako hetu, ariyamaggo, bhaasita.m, tasmaa kusala.m, akusalanti ime pa~nca dhammaa dhammoti veditabbaa. ta.m dhamma.m paccavekkhantassa tasmi.m dhamme pabhedagata.m~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. Tiika 23. word: nibbattati: to produce text: ``yo koci phalanibbattako hetuu''ti etena saccahetudhammapaccayaakaaravaaresu aagataani samudayaadiini gahitaani, As to the expression, any cause that produces fruit, this means: it refers to the sections of truth, of cause, of dhamma, of the structure of conditions, and is taken as the origin of dukkha and so on. saccapaccayaakaaravaaresu maggo, pariyattivaare bhaasita.m, The Path refers the sections of truth and of the structure of conditions, what is spoken refers the section on competency in the scriptures, abhidhammabhaajaniiye kusalaakusalanti eva.m paa.liya.m vuttaana.m eva vasena pa~nca dhammaa veditabbaa. As to profitable and unprofitable, this refers to the Abhidhamma division, and thus, because of what is said in the texts, five things should be understood as dhamma. tattha maggo sampaapako, bhaasita.m ~naapako, itara.m nibbattakoti eva.m tividho hetu veditabbo. Here the Path is leading to (nibbana), what is spoken makes known, and as to the other dhamma, it produces, and thus cause should be known as threefold.... ****** English: As to the expression, any cause that produces fruit, this means: it refers to the sections of truth, of cause, of dhamma, of the structure of conditions, and is taken as the origin of dukkha and so on. The Path refers the sections of truth and of the structure of conditions, what is spoken refers the section on competency in the scriptures, as to profitable and unprofitable, this refers to the Abhidhamma division, and thus, because of what is said in the texts, five things should be understood as dhamma. Here the Path is leading to (nibbana), what is spoken makes known, and as to the other dhamma, it produces, and thus cause should be known as threefold.... ******* (second part of Tiika 23 untranslated). Nina. 26321 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 1:30pm Subject: slow-witted Hi all, I've seen some people characterize themselves and others as slow- witted in their posts. I would suggest not to do that because: 1. If one is not slow-witted but calls and/or characterizes oneself as slow-witted, then that would be an utterance of a falsehood in one's part. 2. If one is really slow-witted, then sooner or later others who are not slow-witted will recognize it. There is no need for the slow- witted one to raise the banner. 3. If other is not slow-witted, then calling and/or characterizing other as slow-witted would be an utterance of falsehood. 4. If other is really slow-witted, then sooner or later others who are not slow-witted will recognize it. There is no need to for one to point it out. In general, I tend to see that it is not necessary in dhamma discussion to call/characterize oneself and others as slow- witted/stupid, whether one and others are really slow-witted/stupid or not. Peace, Victor 26322 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:19pm Subject: Re: slow-witted --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > I've seen some people characterize themselves and others as slow- > witted in their posts. I would suggest not to do that because: Hi Victor, I think that when it comes to recognizing/understanding dhamma, the characterization of `slow-witted' doesn't equal `stupid', as you suggest. A person can have a very high IQ and still not understand the dhamma…we were discussing a completely different matter from comparative intelligence. Therefore, your reasoning doesn't apply. Metta, James 26323 From: Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] slow-witted Hi, Victor - I like both your logic and your humor! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/24/03 4:34:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi all, > > I've seen some people characterize themselves and others as slow- > witted in their posts. I would suggest not to do that because: > > 1. If one is not slow-witted but calls and/or characterizes oneself > as slow-witted, then that would be an utterance of a falsehood in > one's part. > > 2. If one is really slow-witted, then sooner or later others who are > not slow-witted will recognize it. There is no need for the slow- > witted one to raise the banner. > > 3. If other is not slow-witted, then calling and/or characterizing > other as slow-witted would be an utterance of falsehood. > > 4. If other is really slow-witted, then sooner or later others who > are not slow-witted will recognize it. There is no need to for one > to point it out. > > In general, I tend to see that it is not necessary in dhamma > discussion to call/characterize oneself and others as slow- > witted/stupid, whether one and others are really slow-witted/stupid > or not. > > Peace, > Victor > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26324 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:26pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 39-40 for comment Consciousness (Citta) & Mental Factors (Cetasikas) Slide Contents ============== Unwholesome Cittas (Between 15 and 22 cetasikas) - Ethically Variable Cetasikas - Unwholesome Cetasikas Wholesome Cittas (Between 31 and 38 cetasikas) - Ethically Variable Cetasikas - Wholesome Cetasikas Rootless Cittas (Between 7 and 12 cetasikas) - Ethically Variable Cetasikas Speaker Notes ============= One of the definitions of citta mentioned earlier was, "the means by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an object. The accompanying mental factors are the cetasikas; the second type of ultimate reality. Cittas never arise without cetasikas and cetasikas depend upon citta to get access to an object. Cittas are pure awareness; it is the accompanying cetasikas that determine if the citta is unwholesome, wholesome or neutral. The Abhidhamma lists three classes of cetasikas: - Ethically variable: can be unwholesome, wholesome or neutral - Unwholesome: always bad - Wholesome: always good Ethically Variable Cetasikas Slide Contents ============== In all cittas: - Contact / Sense Impression - Feeling / Sensation - Perception / Recognition - Volition / Intention / Will - One-pointedness / Concentration - Life Faculty / Vitality - Attention / Advertence / Reflection In some cittas: - Initial Application / Applied Thinking - Sustained Application / Discursive Thinking - Determination / Decision - Energy / Effort / Exertion - Enthusiasm / Zest / Rapture / Interest - Desire / Zeal / Wish Speaker Notes ============= This is the list of the 13 mental factors which are unwholesome when they arise in unwholesome cittas, wholesome when they arise in unwholesome cittas and neutral when they arise in a neutral citta. In the seeing-consciousness citta, each cetasika has a task to perform as follows: - Contact connects with the visible object - Feeling experiences the "taste" of the visible object - Perception marks and remembers the visible object - Volition coordinates the tasks of the accompanying mental factors - One-pointedness focuses on the visible object - Life faculty sustains the citta and accompanying mental factors until they fall away - Attention drives the citta and the accompanying mental factors towards the visible object 26325 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Dear Victor, Now we are back where Jon left off. Meanwhile, I do not have B.B. translation, and could you give the location please? I read about Mahanama in Gradual Sayings. Nina. op 23-10-2003 22:34 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: Let's go back the point where our > exchange on this thread started: we have different interpretations > about the phrase "or to something more peaceful than that" from the > passage > 26326 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 10:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Hi Nina, Here is the link to another translation of MN.14 Cuuladukkhakkhandha Sutta: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/014-culadukkhakkhanda-sutta-e1.htm I also read about Mahanama in Anguttara Nikaya. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-013.html The Buddha's instruction to Mahanama would be very helpful to one's practice. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Victor, [snip] 26327 From: nordwest Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: slow-witted I would like to mention, that for me Victor posting was a very important reminder, that even "social humbleness" can be an evil deed, if it is not based on reality, but a mere lie. At least, this was how I understood it. Gassho, Thomas buddhatrue wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > I've seen some people characterize themselves and others as slow- > witted in their posts. I would suggest not to do that because: Hi Victor, I think that when it comes to recognizing/understanding dhamma, the characterization of `slow-witted' doesn't equal `stupid', as you suggest. A person can have a very high IQ and still not understand the dhamma…we were discussing a completely different matter from comparative intelligence. Therefore, your reasoning doesn't apply. Metta, James 26328 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Femininity and Masculinity Faculties Dear Howard, I did not read the article, but Suan gave a summary. I have a few remarks. op 24-10-2003 14:55 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Thank you for the CNN link with the article. > > So femininity and masculinity are pre-hormonal workings of the genes > in embryonic brain! N: the embryo at the first moment of life does not have brains as far as I know, but I do not know about medical science. Besides, I am not inclined to emphasize the notion of brain so much, as is mostly done by Western scientists. The Abhidhamma teaches that at the first moment of life of a human there arise three groups of ten rupas (dasakas): one with the heartbase, one with bodysense and one with sex. But these are infinitesimally tiny. The Abhidhamma does not have science as its goal. The goal is knowing dhammas as they are. We may cling to our sex, but in fact it is only a rupa. This rupa conditions our posture, way of walking, interests, it has a great influence on our life. It is beneficial to know that there are conditioning factors for everything in action, speech and thought. Nina. 26329 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] slow-witted Dear Victor, I join in with Howard ;-)) But now more seriously. As you can read in the suttas, some people at the Buddha's time could attain immediately, after a few words (Assaji, Sariputta). Some needed to hear more, some listened but did not attain. Now we are further away from the teachings, and the teachings decline. I think of the "Peg", quoted by Rob K: Samyutta Nikaya IX (20)7 p708 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation <...In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works -- the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples -- are recited. ... In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- will come about. > We are in the cycle of birth and death because of ignorance. Ignorance of dukkha and the other three noble Truths. We know that it may take aeons before ignorance is eradicated. When someone says that he is slow-witted he may say this with different types of citta. It is akusala citta when he says it with conceit, a feeling of: I am less than others. It can also be said with understanding of the hard facts of life. I am grateful for any kind of reminder because I know that I am forgetful of realities. James helped me when speaking of going to the grocery. When I walked back from the grocery the other day I thought of James and then I reflected on the Dhamma. And as James said, being slow-witted does not have anything to to with the degree of intelligence one has. We can think of the novice who could not remember one stanza, but after rubbing the cloth the Buddha gave him he was reminded of the dirt of defilements and attained arahatship. Nina. op 25-10-2003 01:21 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Hi, Victor - > > I like both your logic and your humor! ;-)) > 26330 From: Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 10:55am Subject: Vism. XIV 28, 29, 30, 31 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [Regarding the two planes (trainer and non-trainer) of the four kinds of discrimination] 28. And though they come into the categories of the two planes thus, they are nevertheless distinguishable in five aspects, that is to say, as achievement, mastery of scriptures, hearing, questioning, and prior effort. Herein, "achievement" is the reaching of Arahantship. "Mastery of scriptures" is mastery of the Buddha's word. "Hearing" is learning the Dhamma carefully and attentively. "Questioning" is discussion of knotty passages and explanatory passages in the texts, commentaries, and so on. "Prior effort" is devotion to insight in the dispensation of former Buddhas, up to the vicinity of [the stages of] conformity and change-of-lineage by one who has practiced [the duty of] going [with the meditation subject on alms round] and coming back [with it]. (11) 29. Others have said: 'A prior effort, and great knowledge, [knowledge of] dialects, of scriptures, and questioning, and then achievement, and likewise waiting on a teacher, success in friends--these are conditions productive of discriminations'. 30. Herein, "prior effort" is the same as already stated. "Great learning" is skill in some science or sphere of craft. "Dialects" means skill in the hundred-and-one tongues, particularly in that of Magadha. "Scriptures" means mastery of the Buddha's word, even if only of the Chapter of Similes. (12) "Questioning" is questioning about defining the meaning of even a single stanza. "Achievement" is stream-entry ... or Arahantship. "Waiting on a teacher" is living with very learned intelligent teachers. "Success in friends" is acquisition of friends such as that. [443] Herein, Buddhas and Paccekabuddhas reach discriminations through prior effort and through achievement. Disciples do so through all these means. And there is no special way of developing a meditation subject in order to attain discriminations. But in trainers the attaining of the discriminations comes about next upon the liberation consisting in trainers' fruition, and in non-trainers it does so next upon the liberation consisting in non-trainers' fruition. For the discriminations come to success in noble ones only through the noble fruition as the ten powers do in Perfect Ones. So these were the discriminations referred to when it was said above 'It is of four kinds ... as the four discriminations' (par. 8). --------------------- (11) The expression "gatapaccaagatikabhaava" refers to the practice of 'carrying the meditation subject to and from the alms round', which is described at MA.i,257 in detail. The same expression is also used of a certain kind of refuse-rag (see Ch. II, par.17). (12) 'The "Chapter of Similes" is the Chapter of Twin Verses in the Dhammapada (Dh.1-20), they say. Others say it is the Book of Pairs in the First Fifty (M. Suttas 31-40)' (Pm. 436). 26331 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 11:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: slow-witted --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: > I would like to mention, that for me Victor posting was a very important reminder, that even "social humbleness" can be an evil deed, if it is not based on reality, but a mere lie. At least, this was how I understood it. > > Gassho, > Thomas > > buddhatrue wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I've seen some people characterize themselves and others as slow- > > witted in their posts. I would suggest not to do that because: > > > Hi Victor, > > I think that when it comes to recognizing/understanding dhamma, the > characterization of `slow-witted' doesn't equal `stupid', as you > suggest. A person can have a very high IQ and still not understand > the dhamma…we were discussing a completely different matter from > comparative intelligence. Therefore, your reasoning doesn't apply. > > Metta, James Hi Thomas, I believe that you and Victor are really making too much of this. Take for example this information about the Taiwanese from the Internet: It is considered very impolite to boast in Taiwan. Always make sure to compliment people on anything that is worth noting. Conversely, when receiving a compliment, you are expected to play down your attributes and prowess. When someone compliments your language ability, for example, have a standard response ready ("I really should study more," or "It could be a lot better."). http://www.jobmonkey.com/teaching/asia/html/customs_of_tawain.html Now, are you suggesting that all of the Taiwanese are committing an `evil deed' when they do this? Isn't that a bit of hyperbole? I see this a social custom and I don't believe it falls under the category of lying. Metta, James 26332 From: Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 7:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Femininity and Masculinity Faculties Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/25/03 1:08:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Howard, > I did not read the article, but Suan gave a summary. I have a few remarks. > op 24-10-2003 14:55 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > >Thank you for the CNN link with the article. > > > >So femininity and masculinity are pre-hormonal workings of the genes > >in embryonic brain! > N: the embryo at the first moment of life does not have brains as far as I > know, but I do not know about medical science. Besides, I am not inclined to > emphasize the notion of brain so much, as is mostly done by Western > scientists. > The Abhidhamma teaches that at the first moment of life of a human there > arise three groups of ten rupas (dasakas): one with the heartbase, one with > bodysense and one with sex. But these are infinitesimally tiny. The > Abhidhamma does not have science as its goal. The goal is knowing dhammas as > they are. We may cling to our sex, but in fact it is only a rupa. This rupa > conditions our posture, way of walking, interests, it has a great influence > on our life. It is beneficial to know that there are conditioning factors > for everything in action, speech and thought. > Nina. > =========================== Of course - just conditioning factors, just physical and mental inclinations, all modifiable, conditioned, and not-self. As far as the embryo is concerned, there is not much of a brain at least at the very early stages, but there are the genes, and it is 54 genes dealt with in the study that seem to be carriers/determiners/conditioners for femininity/masculinity. It seems clear to me that when there is so-called embodied existence, the bodily elements, in particular the genes, serve as vehicle for carrying at least some of the accumulations, and that was my point. Moreso, my point was that a notion of "gender tendency" in a namarupic stream, while possibly bothersome to some liberal/libertarian minded folks (me included - libertarian) gets a bit of modern-science support here. Obviously, given our anicca-view of things, the Buddhist "non-inherency" view, there is really no reason to be troubled by mere inclinations. In Buddhist writings, while beings tend to be born again and again as the same sex, there are also changes in sex in some lifetimes. Nothing, including femininity/masculinity, is fixed. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26333 From: Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 28, 29, 30, 31 ""Prior effort" is devotion to insight in the dispensation of former Buddhas, up to the vicinity of [the stages of] conformity and change-of-lineage by one who has practiced [the duty of] going [with the meditation subject on alms round] and coming back [with it]." Hi Nina, I think this sentence is decisive in stating that the 4 discriminations are developed before a path moment. "For the discriminations come to success in noble ones only through the noble fruition as the ten powers do in Perfect Ones." L: And this sentence seems to indicate that the discriminations are a kind of auxiliary fruition of at least some cessation (nibbana). To combine these two we might say we don't really know what we are talking about until we have realized egolessness up to at least the first stage (sotapanna). Furthermore, I would say all these discriminations are abilities or skills in analyzing abstract, conceptual, path related, knowledge. How do you see it? Larry 26334 From: Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 0:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi Rob, Re: "One of the definitions of citta mentioned earlier was, "the means by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an object. The accompanying mental factors are the cetasikas; the second type of ultimate reality. Cittas never arise without cetasikas and cetasikas depend upon citta to get access to an object. Cittas are pure awareness; it is the accompanying cetasikas that determine if the citta is unwholesome, wholesome or neutral." L: It's been bothering me to say "cittas are pure awareness". Does abhidhamma really characterize citta that way? If not, what do you mean by it? Also you say cetasikas determine the ethical status of cittas. I thought cetasikas were subordinate to cittas; plus "determine" is a big word with many dimensions. What do you mean here? Larry 26335 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 4:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Re: "One of the definitions of citta mentioned earlier was, "the means > by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an object. The > accompanying mental factors are the cetasikas; the second type of > ultimate reality. Cittas never arise without cetasikas and cetasikas > depend upon citta to get access to an object. Cittas are pure awareness; > it is the accompanying cetasikas that determine if the citta is > unwholesome, wholesome or neutral." > > L: It's been bothering me to say "cittas are pure awareness". Does > abhidhamma really characterize citta that way? If not, what do you mean > by it? Also you say cetasikas determine the ethical status of cittas. I > thought cetasikas were subordinate to cittas; plus "determine" is a big > word with many dimensions. What do you mean here? I suspect that the problem that we are having here is one of semantics. Each English word comes with a set of "baggage" and to properly represent a Pali term, it is rarely adequate to select one English word. For example, the cetasika piti has been translated as "enthusiasm", "zest", "rapture", "interest" and "joy". Each of these translations reflect a different aspect of piti. You are bothered by the phrase, "cittas are pure awareness". In this context, "pure" implies "without any other function such as feeling, attention, etc.". Rather than "pure awareness", I might say, "simple awareness", "raw awareness" or even "primordial awareness". Instead of "awareness", I could substitute "consciousness", "cognition" or even "knowing". A citta never arises without a set of cetasikas. Each of these cetasikas has a function to perform (a role to play). One could say that the citta is the "leader" or "forerunner" of the cetasikas as the function of the citta is to allow the cetasikas to access the object. I don't think that the concept of "subordinate" really fits here. The function of the cetasika "cetana" is to coordinate the activities of the other cetasikas; that does't mean that the other cetasikas are subordinate to "cetana". The ethical status of a citta is determined by the presence or absence of "roots"; the presence of lobha / dosa / moha makes the citta unwholesome, the presence of alobha / adosa / panna makes the citta wholesome. The absence of roots (i.e. no lobha / dosa / moha / alobha / adosa / panna) makes the citta without an ethical status. For example, the eye-consciousness citta (seeing) is without roots and has no ethical status. If I rewrote the sentence without the word "determining", it might be, "the ethical status (unwholesome / wholesome / neutral) of the citta is based on the presence or absence of root cetasikas (lobha / dosa / moha / alobha / adosa / panna)." Metta, Rob M :-) 26336 From: Ross Barlow Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:45pm Subject: new member intro Hello, everyone. I am new to this list and know that I can learn much from all of you. I am looking forward to reading what you folks have to say. I will probably not post much, except for occasional questions. I will mainly look, lurk, and learn. I am a 53 year old high school teacher (history and philosophy) from northwestern Pennsylvania. My first introduction to Buddhism was an encounter with Beatnik Zen in my youth in the 1960s, which has always fit well with my love of mountaineering and being in wild places. I have, in recent years, been interested more and more in the Theravadin tradition, which is having a tremendous impact on my life. Thanks to Howard for telling me of this group. With metta, -Ross Barlow. http://free-market.net/members/s/Strato.html Climbing Meditation, high on the West Face of Seneca Rocks. 26337 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 6:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] new member intro Ross Welcome to the list, and thanks for telling us something about yourself. I would be interested to hear more about your studies of Theravadin Buddhism and how it has had an impact on your life, when you feel comfortable about doing so. Please feel free to come in at any time on the list. Jon --- Ross Barlow wrote: > Hello, everyone. > > I am new to this list and know that I can learn much from all of > you. I am looking forward to reading what you folks have to say. > I will probably not post much, except for occasional questions. I > will mainly look, lurk, and learn. > > I am a 53 year old high school teacher (history and philosophy) > from > northwestern Pennsylvania. My first introduction to Buddhism was > an encounter with Beatnik Zen in my youth in the 1960s, which has > always > fit well with my love of mountaineering and being in wild places. > I have, in recent years, been interested more and more in the > Theravadin tradition, which is having a tremendous impact on my life. > > Thanks to Howard for telling me of this group. > > With metta, > > -Ross Barlow. > http://free-market.net/members/s/Strato.html > Climbing Meditation, high on the West Face of Seneca Rocks. 26338 From: Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 7:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi Rob, My qualm concerning "pure awareness" is that that characterization isn't really found in CMA or Visuddhimagga. It gives the impression that all consciousness is the same and is only differentiated by cetasikas or sense objects. What about root consciousnesses and the other 89 or 121 kinds of consciousness? I don't think cetasikas are usually classified as roots and to say that cetasikas determine the consciousness is like saying clothes make the man or the king's retinue determines the king. It is the man who makes the clothes and the king who determines the retinue. Larry 26339 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 9:36pm Subject: Buddhists Conceited ? (Dharam) Dear Dharam, If I could just paraphrase your points. These are that some Buddhist believe that the Buddha was the only fully enlightened teacher. That this belief, although disguised as confidence, is actually conceit. And in fact there are other teachers who teach/taught a complete path to enlightenment: Just as there is not one path up a mountain but many/several. I think conceit is a very common element, mental factor (dhamma, dhatu, cetasika) and so it is not in doubt that most of us 'buddhists' feel conceited about all manner of things including the 'fact' that we are folliwng a fully enlightened one. However the teaching stress over and over that any attachment, incluidng to the Buddha or Dhamma is not wisdom and is actually harmful. Thus potentially one can learn to see this danger. Also one may have the view that all or many religions are essentially teaching the same thing and still have conceit about this view. Or one could believe that no religions have such teachings and be conceited about that idea. Or one could say that they neither believe nor not believe that all/some/one teaching has a path to enlightenment. Thus it is always the moment, what element is arising now, that awareness can know as it is. Only in this way can the actual chracteristic of each different element be known. If conceit is seen in the presnt moment its ugly nature can be seen. RobertK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342" wrote: > Dear RobertK, > > > I think you make some good points. > > Thanks. I was hoping we would actually discuss contemporary > attitudes of students, but it looks like you prefer to revert to the > Teachers themselves: > > > Probably the best step to take would be if you write about any > > other teachings or religions that you find equal to the teaching of > > the Buddha in wisdom etc. > > To paraphrase: Who can even measure up to the wisdom of my own > teacher? > > Presumably, the only 'acceptable' response would be: "No one else > possibly could"! After all, how many devout followers of a Guide > would be comfortable even considering the possibility of co- equals, > let alone superiors; especially when dismissing all else as > inferior, is so appealing to the ego? How many even on dsg? > > However, the same question can be asked by a Christian about Jesus; a > Jew about Moses; a Muslim about Muhammad; a Taoist about Lao Tan; and > so on. In fact, it could be asked about each of the teachers who > we know of ever speaking about realizing the ultimate reality. We > can easily guess the answers that almost all these students would > insist on. Yet a survey of the whole scene reveals a problem - the > answers are all different, depending on their particular biases. > > Therefore, who is qualified to make this judgment? The potential > judge would need these minimum qualifications: > > 1. Absence of any bias; > > 2. Complete first-hand knowledge of the paths being compared by having > traveled faithfully on each (more valid than intellectual > assumptions based on centuries old hearsay in many cases); > > 3. Having realized the ultimate reality i.e. having reached the > destination by those paths. > > Do you know of anyone so qualified to compare any two, let alone make > a global judgment? I do not. > > Without offending anyone, we should also consider excluding the master > teachers themselves. Why? Because it is exceedingly unlikely > any of them has such qualifications. Most concentrated on their own > path, a precious few considered the validity of other paths. What > chance has the average spiritual explorer today of making a sound > discriminant judgment? > > > Otherwise it is speculation that there are such teachers. > > Of course there has never been, nor is likely to be, anyone such as > the Buddha...... or Jesus, or Lao Tan, etc. They are as unique, as > the individual mountain guides expert in their own paths up to the > ultimate view at the peak. Choose according to your taste, but no > need to reject the existence or expertise of the others you have not > chosen. The same applies to the path - easier, faster, safer, > wiser - all illusory details along the way, irrelevant once you have > reached the destination. > > It is the destination, NOT the path, NOR the guide, that is of the > ultimate importance. If we focus on that, we may become much less > attached to the path, the guide, or ourselves. They then become > what they always were - practical necessities for the journey - > nothing more, nothing less. > > We should clearly see defense of one's own path and guide, and denial > of others, as based on attachment - something warned against by > almost all the enduring teachings that we know of today. > > My only intention is to warn against the well-disguised hurdle of > contemporary conceit along the path - any path, with any guide - > always to the same destination. > > metta, > dharam 26340 From: Nanapalo Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Just to say Hello to All Member... dear Sugiarto, greatly appreciate your contribution in the lists. may you ever grow in the Dhamma. selamat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sugiarto" To: "Dhamma Study Group" Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 2:24 PM Subject: [dsg] Just to say Hello to All Member... > Namo Buddhaya... > > Let's me introduces myself first, > My Name is Sugiarto Limawan , Male, 26th years Old, lived in Jakarta- > Indonesia. > > I interesting with "Dhamma Study Group" mailing list to find out about > Buddhist , I still a member of Local Buddhist's Mailing list, such as: > Mahasati, SamaggiJaya and others . > > I know DSG from someone ,who are member of one buddhits's mailing list. > > NB: I'm sorry , if my english so bad , because i'm not expert in english. > > Mettacittena, > S.L 26341 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 10:35pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > My qualm concerning "pure awareness" is that that characterization isn't > really found in CMA or Visuddhimagga. It gives the impression that all > consciousness is the same and is only differentiated by cetasikas or > sense objects. What about root consciousnesses and the other 89 or 121 > kinds of consciousness? Citta is one entity, divided into 89 or 121 types (see CMA p265). Unfortunately, they use the term "citta" to describe both the entity and the types and this can generate confusion. > I don't think cetasikas are usually classified > as roots and to say that cetasikas determine the consciousness is like > saying clothes make the man or the king's retinue determines the king. > It is the man who makes the clothes and the king who determines the > retinue. Roots are the cetasikas lobha / dosa / moha / alobha / adosa / panna. A citta with roots is a type of citta with one or more of these cetasikas. Sorry for the short answer; I am just about to get on a plane and don't have time to go into more details. Metta, Rob M :-) 26342 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 10:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Dear Victor, Thank you. I do not have the Co to this sutta, but my PTS made a note to the passage "or something better than that": MA II 63 points out that This note is to another sutta, but it can be applied here. The end is very interesting: the King who has not lasting happiness, and the Buddha who experiences nothing but happiness. The Co note: the happiness of attaining the fruits (of the Way). This is fruition attainment, phaalasamaapatti. What Co notes are given by B.B.? Also to the first one. Nina. op 25-10-2003 07:58 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > Hi Nina, > > Here is the link to another translation of MN.14 Cuuladukkhakkhandha > Sutta: > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- > Nikaya/Majjhima1/014-culadukkhakkhanda-sutta-e1.htm > > I also read about Mahanama in Anguttara Nikaya. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-013.html > > The Buddha's instruction to Mahanama would be very helpful to one's > practice. > > Peace, > Victor > 26343 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 11:07pm Subject: Myanmar dear Nina and others, Missed you , Nina. If there is not the development of right understanding at this present moment, then the eradication of kilesa can never occur. Only this presently arising dhamma can be known directly, by r.u., otherwise ir is just thinking, about the past, about the future. Myanmar is just a story, cannot be touched, seen, heard, smelt or tasted as any reality. Where is Myanmar in the visible object; when seeing arises and experiences visible object, no Bagan, no Shwedagon. Golden pagodas, amazing sunsets, piles of stinking rubbish are merely objects of thinking. No right understanding at those moments. We took as many opportunities as we coulld to have dhamma discussions with Aachan. Sarah made me smile as she marked each "shopping" slot on the itinary as opportunity for d.d as a few of us weren't into shopping, including Aachan. Quest. about mana and wrong view and how closely related they seem to be. A.S. would answer 'is there mana n0w? if there is, then it can be known, otherwise just thinking about it'. A very tightly packed schedule had us visiting many, many places [lots of chedis]. I stayed at the hotel one day to relax and I thought about 'thinking' and how 'messy' the world of concepts is. So the moment of Sati must be a very 'clear' , a moment of clarity about what this present moment really, really is - .no confusion at t hat moment. patience, courage and good cheer. Azita ps I think the development of R.U takes a long, long time. But it must start somewhere, so if not now, when? it has to be now. 26344 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 11:12pm Subject: On the road to Mandalay, pigs and compassion Dear group, Sukin - just looked at the photos - thanks. Azita is showing me the intricacies of internet cafes ... I remember hearing my father singing "On the Road to Mandalay - where the flying fishes play - and the moon comes up like thunder - Out of China cross the bay". That song, and memories of Rudyard Kiplings' writings were flavours of my childhood. What a surprise to find that Mandalay is absolutely nowhere near the coast! Standing on the balcony of the Marriott in Bkk brough a visitor to me - not a monkey as in Sri Lanka, but a blue budgerigah with a yellow head. It flew to the balcony I was standing on - tried to land on the railing next to me, fell to the floor. It escaped as I tried to cup it in my hands. The next day around the pool, some German tourists stopped in front of me, staring just past my left shoulder. This time, a green budgie was sitting on the back of the lounge seat next to me. Interesting (and silly) how the mind tries to invest occurrences with meaning ... I thought, "Australian birds coming to an Australian woman in a foreign land ... is it a sign I should call home?" So, I did ... and it wasn't. :-) The Animal Plane is the only other plane of existence that we can see. A trip to Thailand for me always contains lots of reflections on animals. It is usually only 10 hours from dropping Rusty to the safety of the Boarding Kennels, to seeing the Soi Dogs of Bangkok. This time there were very few Soi Dogs - on the Thai TV News we saw the dog catchers running with butterfly nets, capturing frightened animals. We were assured they were merely being taken to north Thailand to be released out of the view of the APEC delegates. (!) In Myanmar there are dogs in the Temple grounds and they mostly stay without hindrance, but many look unwell and have skin diseases and sores. It is one thing to think of the precept about non-harming - I wondered about how "not saving" is related. I understand that to be born an animal is vipaka from past kamma committed, and how scary to be born not able to hear and understand the Dhamma. (except for the bats and the flea RobK once told me about - but a tiny few out of billions.) And I thought about future rebirths and how the Teachings tell us that the chance of a human rebirth is so rare as to be almost infinitesimal. I thought of how we view humans as more valuable than animals. We stopped outside a small silk making factory in Mandalay, and people were inspecting the process and buying the fabric. I wandered out to the footpath. A large sow and five piglets were snuffling round in a rubbish heap a few feet away. (I thought about the bacon many had eaten for breakfast.) I'm struggling to understand that compassion is only a brief mind moment, and that the rest is just thinking as the others tell me. Is Compassion really of any use without action? metta and karuna, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 26345 From: bodhi2500 Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 0:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Hello Nina,Victor and all Nina wrote: > What Co notes are given by B.B.? Also to the first one. > Nina. From Culadukkhakkhandha Sutta MN14 "Even though a Noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification,much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, as long as he still does not attain to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures,apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, he may still be attracted to sensual pleasures." B.B notes> The "rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures" are the rapture and pleasure pertaining to the first and second jhanas; the states "more peaceful than that" are the higher jhanas. From this passage it seems that a disciple may attain even to the second path and fruit without possessing mundane jhana. Com.> A~n~na.m vaa tato santataranti tato jhaanadvayato santatara.m a~n~na.m uparijhaanadvaya~nceva maggadvaya~nca. A little later in the sutta the "or to something more peaceful than that" passage occurs again, the com. to that is > A~n~na.m vaa tato santataranti idha upari jhaanadvaya.m ceva cattaaro ca maggaa adhippetaa. Hopefully someone can offer a translation to the com. passages.. Steve 26346 From: monomuni Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 1:46am Subject: The 2 Nirvanas! Friends: The 2 dimensions of Nirvana: There is Nibbana here & now in this very life: We call it 'sa-upadi-sesa-nibbana' i.e. Nibbana with the substrates of becoming, still remaining: Then there is final Nibbana, with no substrates of being nor becoming left: an-upadi-sesa-nibbana: Buddha explained it thus: ______________________________________________________________ The 2 aspects of Nibbana: 'This was said by the Blessed One: "Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left & the Nibbana-element with no remains left. "What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahat, one whose mental fermentations is eliminated, who have fulfilled the Noble life, who has done all what was to be done, who has laid down the burden, attained the goal, who has destroyed the bondages of being, who is completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense abilities remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable, and feels both pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, aversion, and confusion in him, that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left. "Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue remaining? Here a bhikkhu is an arahat, one whose mental fermentations is eliminated, who have fulfilled the Noble life, who has done all what was to be done, who has laid down the burden, attained the goal, who has destroyed the bondages of being, who is completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will grow cool right there & cease. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left. "These, bhikkhus, are the two Dimensions of Nibbana." These two Nibbana-elements were thus made known by the Seeing One, confident & detached: The first is the element with substrates of being remaining, realized here and now, but with re-becoming destroyed. The other, having no residue left for the future, is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease. Having understood this unconstructed state, released in mind, with the cord to becoming eliminated, They attain to the sublime essence of all states. Delighting in the ceasing & calming of craving, those steady ones have left all being & becoming.' Source; Thus Was it Said: Itivuttaka II.17; Iti 38 ______________________________________________________________ Final Nibbana: So have I heard: At a certain occasion when the Blessed One was instructing, arousing, inspiring, explaining & gladdening a group of Bhikkhus with a Dhamma talk on Nibbana, then, these Bhikkhus listened, fully attentive, well motivated, mentally absorbed into what they heard, then appreciating the value of this circumstance, the Blessed One, exclaimed: There is, Bhikkhus, that state, that sphere, that realm, that dimension: where there is neither earth, water, fire nor any air, where there is neither solidity, fluidity, heat nor any movement, where there is neither extension, cohesion, vibration nor any diffusion, where there is neither any space, nor any consciousness, where there is not even void empty nothingness, where there is neither perception nor non-perception, where there is neither any here nor there, nor in between nor beyond , where there is neither any sun, moon nor any universe at all !!! There, Bhikkhus, one cannot point out any coming, nor any going, nor any remaining, nor any duration, nor any beginning & much less any ending. Neither is there any activity, movement nor fix stability, nor any basis or substrate of any conditioning medium whatsoever. This - just this – is the End of Suffering. Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 1 ______________________________________________________________ Subtle Nibbana: So have I heard: On that very same occasion of instructing Bhikkhus on the nature of Nibbana, the Blessed One exclaimed: Hard it is to see the unconstructed, the undistorted. This independent state is not easily realized. Craving is cut for the One, who so knows, since he sees. that there is nothing to cling to … Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 2 ______________________________________________________________ Traceless Nibbana: So have I heard: On that same occasion, the Blessed One, furthermore exclaimed: There is, Bhikkhus, what is unborn, unbecome, uncreated & unconstructed. If, Bhikkhus, there was not this unborn, unbecome, uncreated & unconstructed state, no escape from what is born, become, created & constructed could be realized. But since there is what is unborn, unbecome, uncreated & unconstructed, the escape from this born, become, created & constructed state can therefore be declared & realized. Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 3 ______________________________________________________________ Forceless Nibbana: So have I heard: Finally on that same occasion, teaching on the nature of Nibbana the Blessed One exclaimed: In any dependence there is bound to be instability. In Independence there cannot be any instability. When there is no liable instability, no feeble wavering, there is a quiet calm, stillness, serenity & peace. When there is such solid tranquility, then there is no tendency to drift, no attraction, no mental push or pull, nor strain of appeal or repulsion. When there is no attraction, no drift, no bending, then there is no movement, no development, no coming nor going. No starting nor ending. When there is no coming nor going, then neither is there any ceasing nor reappearing. Neither ceasing nor reappearing, there is no here nor there nor beyond nor in between. This – just this – is the End of Suffering. Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 4 ______________________________________________________________ The Meditator: So have I heard: When seeing Ven. Mahamoggallana sitting absorbed in meditation, cross-legged, straight upright & internally aware of the body, the Blessed One, inspired & welcoming the opening of this event, exclaimed: Aware of the body, perceiving it’s internal forms, in complete control of the contacts of the 6 senses, such Bhikkhu, ever composed in absorption, may directly, by himself, come to touch & taste Nibbana. Udana – Inspiration: III - 5 ______________________________________________________________ Elementally Beyond So have I heard: When the Blessed One, on repeated requests from Bahiya instructed him in what were Venerable Bahiya’s last minutes of life, the result was that he, Venerable Bahiya - the bark-clothed ascetic - attained final Nibbana! This direct, clear-cut, exact yet quite subtle admonition was so simply expounded: In the seen is merely the process of seeing. In the heard is merely the process of hearing. In the sensed is merely the process of sensing. In the thought is merely the process of thinking. So knowing, you will not be connected nor obsessed ‘with that’. So disconnected you will not be absorbed ‘in or within that’. So neither ‘with that’ nor ‘in that’ you Are Not! ‘by that’ sensation. # When there is no ‘you’ inferred or conjectured by that sensation, then ‘you’ are neither ‘here’, ‘there’,‘beyond’ nor ‘in between' ... On realizing the importance of this event the Blessed One exclaimed: Where neither solidity, fluidity, heat or diffusion find footing, there no sun, moon nor star shines. There is neither any light yet nor is there any darkness. When the Noble, through stilling of all construction, through quieting of all mental formation, directly experiences this, then is he freed from both form & formlessness, then is he released from both pleasure & pain …’ Udana – Inspiration: I – 10 Comment #: A gold-nugget of an instruction! Brevity is clarity! There is no-one who senses, even though sensing occurs! Seeing is just a selfless event of contact between eye, object & visual consciousness. No ‘person’ or ‘onlooker’ is involved there! No subject or ‘I’ is created, just because there is an object, or just because there occurs the process of seeing … The fact that there is an image projected, does per se imply, in or by itself, that any-one actually is ‘looking in’ or ‘is behind’ the camera ... ‘By that’ perception no ‘perceiver’ is thereby present, created or engaged! So the ‘personal entity’ we assume, suppose, deduce, expect & believe to enjoy the experience is merely a mental construct, an idea, a concept & not a reality … The passive impersonal process of sensing, perception & experiencing cannot thereby be ‘instrumental’ for neither creating nor inferring any ‘being in existence’. The fact of this fundamental ‘selflessness’ is far the most essential core of the Buddha-Dhamma. Outmost important to grasp yet subtle, counterintuitive & thereby difficult & somewhat ‘nasty’ to comprehend. Keep trying, since this central NO-SELF exists (anatta) teaching is the opener, the releaser & very freer of any mind! Being hopelessly in love with an imagined idea of ‘I’ is both fatal, tragic & sardonically comic … ;-) Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] Friendship is truly GREATEST; For Gladdening of Good People. Goodwill Motivates Noble Life! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct Easy subscription by sending an email to: Buddha-Direct-subscribe@yahoogroups.com -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Cut off your affection as though it were an autumn lily, with the hand. Cultivate the very path of peace. Nibbana has been expounded by the Auspicious One. Random Dhammapada Verse 285 26347 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Photos of Myanmar Sukin and All Many thanks for posting these pics, which I am looking forward to viewing as soon as I get home tomorrow (Monday, around 12 noon Hong kong time). Somewhat sadly, Sarah and I are coming to the end of a wonderful 10 days in Myanmar and here in Bangkok. I can't quite accept at the moment that by this time tomorrow I will not only be back in Hong Kong but will have just about finished an afternoon's work! Our thanks to all the English speaking members of the tour group for great discussion and good companionship on the trip -- Sukin, Betty, Num, Christine, Azita, Jack (and wife Oi), Shakti and Sandra (potential newbie), and also to Kom and O (from Calif), Ivan and Ell for the time here in Bangkok. Many thanks also to all of you who posted while we were away. Checking the list from time to time and reading through printouts of all the posts along the way (despite very limited internet access in Myanmar)has been one of the highlights for Sarah and I. Many good points to consider. Myanmar is a very nice country to visit, despite the bad press it gets, and I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone considering a visit. Have to go now. Sarah and I are looking forward to getting back to discussion with you all soon. Jon --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > Hi All, > > We have all just arrived back from Myanmar. > It was a great trip. > Happy to be able to access dsg again. > I have uploaded some photos from our trip. > Hope you will all enjoy viewing them. > > Metta, > > Sukin. 26348 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:47am Subject: onyx Deer and compassionate lion Dear Group, Just watching a documentary on Japanese Tv set in Africa. They had some nice footage where a lost deer was taken in by a lion! The baby deer got separated from its mother and a female lion looked after it for 3 days. The deer even tried to feed from the lion but couldn't get milk. Still the lion protected it from rain by putting it in a bush and covering it with its own body. In the end the lion was asleep and the mother deer came along and found her offspring. When the lion woke up it seemed concerned about where the baby deer had gone. RobertK 26349 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:30am Subject: Re: new member intro Hi Ross, Welcome to the group. I remember when I was on d-l group you sent me a photo of you way up in the mountains. It would look nice in the photo files I think. Robert K (kirkpatrick) In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ross Barlow wrote: > Hello, everyone. > > I am new to this list and know that I can learn much from all of > you. I am looking forward to reading what you folks have to say. I > will probably not post much, except for occasional questions. I will > mainly look, lurk, and learn. > Rocks. 26350 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 8:10am Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 20 B Commentary Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 20 B. Relevant passage of the sutta: ``katamaa ca, raahula, aakaasadhaatu? aakaasadhaatu siyaa ajjhattikaa, siyaa baahiraa. "And what, Rahula, is the space element? The space element may be internal or external. katamaa ca, raahula, ajjhattikaa aakaasadhaatu? ya.m ajjhatta.m paccatta.m aakaasa.m aakaasagata.m upaadinna.m, And what, Rahula, is the internal space element? That, internally, and individually, is space, empty, and clung to, seyyathida.m -- ka.n.nacchidda.m naasacchidda.m² namely: the orifice of the ear, nose, mouth.² Ya.m ajjhatta.m paccatta.m aakaasa.m aakaasagata.m upaadinna.m, That, internally, and individually, is space, spacious, and clung to, seyyathida.m - ka.n.nacchidda.m naasacchidda.m mukhadvaara.m, namely: the orifice of the ear, nostril, mouth, yena ca asitapiitakhaayitasaayita.m ajjhoharati, whereby (food that) is consumed having being tasted, drunk and eaten is swallowed, yattha ca asitapiitakhaayitasaayita.m santi.t.thati, where (food that) is consumed having being tasted, drunk and eaten is stored, yena ca asitapiitakhaayitasaayita.m adhobhaaga.m nikkhamati.. and whereby (food) being tasted, chewed, drunk and eaten passes out of the body lower down. Commentary text: aakaasadhaatuya.m aakaasagatanti aakaasabhaava.m gata.m. With regard to the element of space, the expression, ³connected with space² means: having the characteristic of emptiness. upaadinnanti aadinna.m gahita.m paraama.t.tha.m, sariira.t.thakanti attho. As to the expression, clung to, this means, clung to, grasped and misapprehended. The meaning is that it refers to the bodily frame *. ka.n.nacchiddanti ma.msalohitaadiihi asamphu.t.thaka.n.navivara.m. As to the expression, cavity in the ear, this means, an opening in the ear, not touched by flesh and blood, etc. naasacchiddaadiisupi eseva nayo. With regard to cavity in the nose etc. this is also according to the same system of teaching. yena caati yena chiddena. As to the words ³and that by which² , this means: by which cavity. ajjhoharatiiti anto paveseti, As to the words, ³he swallows², this means, he makes it go inside. jivhaabandhanato hi yaava udarapa.talaa manussaana.m vidatthicatura"ngula.m chidda.t.thaana.m hoti. From the base of the tongue as far as the mucous membrane of the intestines of humans there is a hollow tract of one cube and four fingers length. ta.m sandhaayeta.m vutta.m. Now, this is said in this connection. yattha caati yasmi.m okaase. As to the words, ³And where², this means: at whichever occasion. santi.t.thatiiti pati.t.thaati. As to the expression, it remains, this means: it is established. manussaana~nhi mahanta.m pa.taparissaavanamatta~nca udarapa.tala.m naama hoti. What is like a large filter for humans is called intestines. ta.m sandhaayeta.m vutta.m. Now, this is said in this connection. adhobhaaga.m nikkhamatiiti yena he.t.thaa nikkhamati. As to the words, it comes out at the lower part, this means: where it comes out underneath. dvatti.msahatthamatta.m ekaviisatiyaa .thaanesu va"nka.m anta.m naama hoti. Here, the intestines have been referred to that are thirtytwo cubits (a cubit being half a yard) in length and coiled in twentyone places **. ta.m sandhaayeta.m vutta.m. Now, this is said in this connection. ya.m vaa pana~n~nampiiti As to the words, or whatever else, iminaa sukhumasukhuma.m cammama.msaadiantaragata~nceva lomakuupabhaavena ca .thita.m aakaasa.m dasseti. this means: by this he explains the very subtle space situated between the inner skin and flesh and so on, which is like skin pores ***. sesametthaapi pathaviidhaatuaadiisu vuttanayeneva veditabba.m. Here, the other words should be understood in the same way as what is said with reference to the element of earth and so on ****. ***** English: With regard to the element of space, the expression, ³connected with space² means: having the characteristic of emptiness. As to the expression, clung to, this means, clung to, grasped and misapprehended. The meaning is that it refers to the bodily frame *. As to the expression, cavity in the ear, this means, an opening in the ear, not touched by flesh and blood, etc. With regard to cavity in the nose etc. this is also according to the same system of teaching. As to the words ³and that by which² , this means: by which cavity. As to the words, ³he swallows², this means, he makes it go inside. From the base of the tongue as far as the mucous membrane of the intestines of humans there is a hollow tract of one cube and four fingers length. Now, this is said in this connection. As to the words, ³And where², this means: at whichever occasion. As to the expression, it remains, this means: it is established. What is like a large filter for humans is called intestines. Now, this is said in this connection. As to the words, it comes out at the lower part, this means: where it comes out underneath. Here, the intestines have been referred to that are thirtytwo cubits (a cubit being half a yard) in length and coiled in twentyone places **. Now, this is said in this connection. As to the words, or whatever else, this means: by this he explains the very subtle space situated between the inner skin and flesh and so on, which is like skin pores ***. Here, the other words should be understood in the same way as what is said with reference to the element of earth and so on ****. ____________ * The subcommentary states: clung to by carving (tanhaa) and wrong view (di.t.thi) **See also Visuddhimagga VIII, 118-120, for the intestines, etc. *** The Visuddhimagga VI, 89, states that there are ninety-nine thousand pores. **** The subcommentary refers to the ³Discourse on the Elephant¹s Footprint². ***** Nina. 26351 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi Larry, I can add. Indeed citta is the chief in knowing an object, it is accompanied by different kinds of cetasikas. Rob indicated the roots, wholesome and unwholesome, and these are like the root of a tree: the base. They condition citta to be wholesome or unwholesome. Besides there are many other types of cetasikas, wholesome, unwholesome or neither. Pure awareness: Citta just cognizes an object, that is its task. Awareness is not used here in the sense of sati. Cetasikas assist the citta each in their own way to know the object. Does this help? Nina. op 26-10-2003 06:35 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: >> Hi Rob, >> >> My qualm concerning "pure awareness" is that that characterization > isn't >> really found in CMA or Visuddhimagga. 26352 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] new member intro Hi Ross, welcome to the list, and could you just start with one question? Then the contact is established. Looking forward, Nina. op 25-10-2003 21:45 schreef Ross Barlow op rbarlow@p...: > I > will probably not post much, except for occasional questions. I will > mainly look, lurk, and learn. 26353 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Just to say Hello to All Member... Dear Selamat, delighted to hear from you. I know you have little time, but I hope Sugiarto can tell us about the discussions you all have in your group, best wishes from Nina. op 25-10-2003 21:55 schreef Nanapalo op nana_palo@c...: > dear Sugiarto, > greatly appreciate your contribution in the lists. > may you ever grow in the Dhamma. > > selamat 26354 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: slow-witted Hi James. Interesting. It makes me think of Japan. When praising a house or food, they would answer, it is bad, . And in China they speak about themselves as . Nina. op 25-10-2003 19:12 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Conversely, > when receiving a compliment, you are expected to play down your > attributes and prowess. 26355 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Hi Nina and Steve, Thank you both for providing the references. My understanding regarding the phrase "or to something more peaceful than that" largely agrees with Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes: The "rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures" are the rapture and pleasure pertaining to the first and second jhanas; the states "more peaceful than that" are the higher jhanas. as provided by Steve. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Victor, [snip] 26356 From: Larry Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Pure awareness: Citta just cognizes an object, that is its task. >Awareness is not used here in the sense of sati. Cetasikas assist >the citta each in their own way to know the object. Hi Nina and Rob, This completely changes my view of consciousness. I thought greed rooted consciousness was a particular kind of consciousness rather than a generic consciousness with a particular cetasika. This view of consciousness as being all the same is very compatible with the Vedanta. Surprising! Larry 26357 From: Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 7:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi, Larry (and Nina and Rob) - In a message dated 10/26/03 2:12:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > >Pure awareness: Citta just cognizes an object, that is its task. > >Awareness is not used here in the sense of sati. Cetasikas assist > >the citta each in their own way to know the object. > > Hi Nina and Rob, > > This completely changes my view of consciousness. I thought greed > rooted consciousness was a particular kind of consciousness rather > than a generic consciousness with a particular cetasika. This view of > consciousness as being all the same is very compatible with the > Vedanta. Surprising! > > Larry > =========================== Is your car painted green the same as "that" car painted red? The function is the same, but not the color. In a sense, do not the cetasikas and object of an act of awareness constitute the "coloration" of that act of awareness. The citta, its cetasikas, and its object are inseparable and co-conditioning. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26358 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar trip Dear Sarah, Jon and friends, welcome back all of you. We really missed you. Delighted to hear the discussions were so good and to hear who were present. Kom, I did not know you were in Bgk, do tell us more about the discussions. And also Kh O, how nice you were there. Azita, thank you very much for your post and good reminders, and Christine for the post about animals and compassion. Yes, whenever there is an opportunity let us take action. We live in the world. There should not be in our life a contradiction of ultimate and conventional realities! We should find a balance. Nina. op 26-10-2003 10:50 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Somewhat sadly, Sarah and I are coming to the end of a wonderful 10 > days in Myanmar and here in Bangkok. .. > Our thanks to all the English speaking members of the tour group for > great discussion and good companionship on the trip -- Sukin, Betty, > Num, Christine, Azita, Jack (and wife Oi), Shakti and Sandra > (potential newbie), and also to Kom and O (from Calif), Ivan and Ell > for the time here in Bangkok. 26359 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Dear Steve, Thank you very much. I have to take time to study, and see below for transl, Nina. op 26-10-2003 08:55 schreef bodhi2500 op seisen_@h...: > B.B notes> > > The "rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures" are > the rapture and pleasure pertaining to the first and second jhanas; > the states "more peaceful than that" are the higher jhanas. From this > passage it seems that a disciple may attain even to the second path > and fruit without possessing mundane jhana. > > Com.> > > A~n~na.m vaa tato santataranti tato jhaanadvayato santatara.m > a~n~na.m uparijhaanadvaya~nceva maggadvaya~nca. >As to the expression something else more peaceful than that, this means: more peaceful than the two (stages of) jhaana are the two higher jhanas and the two Paths. > > A little later in the sutta the "or to something more peaceful than > that" passage occurs again, the com. to that is > > > A~n~na.m vaa tato santataranti idha upari jhaanadvaya.m ceva cattaaro > ca maggaa adhippetaa. >As to the expression something more peaceful than that, this means: here are meant the two higher jhanas and the four Paths. Nina. 26360 From: Jerdjun Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 7:41am Subject: A new member profile. Hi, I am new to the group. I live in Fresno, California. My husband, Sutee, and I own a Thai resteurant in Fresno, and we have been studing with Ajan Sujin for 5 years, but my knowledge about damma is very little. Not much for me to say because I am shy, and I want to keep a low profile. Jerdjun. 26361 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member profile. Hi, Jerdjun Very pleased you have joined us (Yin dee maak, na krup). I am writing this from Don Muang airport, on our way back home after a delightful trip to Myanmar with Ajarn Sujin and others (including some from Fresno and elsewhere on the West Coast). I'm sure you will feel at home here. Please consider sharing your dhamma knowledge with others on the list (shyness is not allowed as an excuse on this list!). Jon --- Jerdjun wrote: > Hi, I am new to the group. I live in Fresno, California. My > husband, > Sutee, and I own a Thai resteurant in Fresno, and we have been > studing with Ajan Sujin for 5 years, but my knowledge about damma > is > very little. Not much for me to say because I am shy, and I want to > keep a low profile. > Jerdjun. 26362 From: Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi Howard, If all consciousness is the same and there is no moment without consciousness, how do we know consciousness is impermanent? If we say, theoretically the change in cetasika or object signifies a change in consciousness, what does change in consciousness mean if the consciousness is the same? Larry 26363 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Victor (and Nina, Steve and all) I agree with this. It is a reference to higher levels of samatha. I think Bh Bodhi's note must come from the commentary, although for some reason he does not attribute it as such. Good to have sorted this out. However, I have somewhat lost our original thread, and will need to go back and pick it up again. Thanks to Steve and Nina for following this through. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Nina and Steve, > > Thank you both for providing the references. My understanding > regarding the phrase "or to something more peaceful than that" > largely agrees with Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes: > > The "rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures" > are > the rapture and pleasure pertaining to the first and second jhanas; > the states "more peaceful than that" are the higher jhanas. > > as provided by Steve. 26364 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: ... > Is your car painted green the same as "that" car painted > red? The > function is the same, but not the color. In a sense, do not the > cetasikas and > object of an act of awareness constitute the "coloration" of that > act of > awareness. The citta, its cetasikas, and its object are inseparable > and co-conditioning. I'm not sure about 'inseparable'. Does this not tend to 'reify' the citta/cetasika combination and its object? While the 2 are mutually dependent at the very moment that the object is experienced, each still has its own individual characteristic. As I understand it, at a moment of, say, seeing, awareness could be aware of the seeing or of the visible object, but not of a 'composite' of seeing-and-visible object. As to conditioning, there are many conditions applying at a given 'dhamma' at a given moment, and not all of these concern the relationship between the moment of consciousness and its object. It helps to know of the other kinds of conditions at play also ;-)). Jon 26365 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Victor I think I've managed to find the point where we left off ;-)). --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Larry, Jon, and all, > > Perhaps the way to have a clear idea why the Buddha recommended > right concentration/samma samadhi or what is the exact relationship > between tranquility and concentration in samma samadhi is to > develop right concentration/samma samadhi itself. Well, yes, but we first need to know what RC of the Noble Eightfold Path is and how it fits inot the scheme of things. Let's remember that not every instance of mundane samatha is RC of the Noble Eightfold Path. > Why did the Buddha teach right concentration/samma samadhi? As a > factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, it leads to the cessation of > dukkha. Yes, but (again!) it is the NEP itself that leads to the cessation of suffering, not the individual path factors taken in isolation, as I understand it. > Specifically, > > > "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the > dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the > infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell > you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html This is so for the person who develops insight based on samatha. According to the comments I quoted before, it should not be read as meaning that mundane samatha is the same thing as RC as a factor of the NEP. > Let me quote from MN14 Culadukkahkkhandha Sutta* the following > passage: I see now that Nina is planning to look at the commentary material provided by Steve, so I will wait until I have seen that before giving my comments on this passage. Time to board our flight anyway. Talk to you again later. Jon > > "Mahanama, there is still a state unabanddoned by you internally, > owing to which at times states of greed, hate, and delusion invade > your mind and remain; for were that state already abandoned by you > internally you would not be living the home life, you would not be > enjoying sensual pleasures. It is because that state is > unabandoned > by you internally that you are living the home life and enjoying > sensual pleasures. > "Even though a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is > with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little > gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is > the danger in them, as long as he still does not attain to the > rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart > from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, > he > may still be attracted to sensual pleasures. But when a noble > disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how > sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and > much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains > to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, > apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than > that, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasure. > 26366 From: abbott_hk Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar trip Dear Nina & All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, Jon and friends, > welcome back all of you. We really missed you. > Delighted to hear the discussions were so good and to hear who were present. .... Not quite back - I'm on on a Thai computer at the airport and fumbling around with the keys as I have so meany pleasant thoughts about the trip and friends....'whispering lobha' as K. Sujin quietly reminded us all many times as we asked questions about the details, find ways for wholesome states to develop quicker or showed concern about unwholesome states....'whispering lobha' as we looked at tables of food, sunsets, stupas, markets or swimming pools(in my case)....'whispering lobha' as we excitedly discussed dhamma on buses, in airports, over meals together and with K.Sujin whenever we could arrange it.... 'whispering lobha' as I met Kom for the first time over breakfast yesterday at our hotel and other friends like Shakti & Sandra for the first time..... more 'whispering lobha' (in truth it was often screaming lobha) to spend time with old friends again, chat and laugh a lot together too..., but it was a really super group... and now more 'whispering lobha' as I catch up with you all on list, in between the great appreciation for all the super dhamma-packed posts and friendly comments...Ken H, James & All (too many to mention) - many thanks;-). This is likely to get zapped anytime, so will catch up more after settling back into Hong Kong life....another world from the quiet, undeveloped, seemingly unpolulated beautiful Myanmar countryside with nothing but stupas on the horizon.... and of course, 'whispering lobha' as I tell these stories with just occasional awareness of thinking as the reality in between the seeing, hearing and so on. At these precious moments of awareness, there's no dream or illusion and then the 'whispering lobha' follows again..... Asavas(intoxicants)fermenting and oozing out at every opportunity. So I understand in the Vism context (discussed before with Nina and Larry and now with KS), a moment of understanding and then lobha attaching to it. Elsewhere, understanding comprehending the 'whispering lobha' and other asavas for what they are - conditioned dhammas, anatta and quite beyond any control. Boarding call - another set of stories;-) Any 'whispering lobha' now? Any awareness or understanding? Metta, Sarah p.s Kom, Betty, Christine, Azita, Jack, O and others have all left this morning for Chengmai and the north today...more opportunities for awareness and understanding....and 'whipsering lobha'....Shakti has gone sounth and 'whispering lobha' hopes she'll add her report with the Manjushri sword reminders;-);-) ================================================================= 26367 From: Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi, Larry - In a message dated 10/26/03 7:12:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > If all consciousness is the same and there is no moment without > consciousness, how do we know consciousness is impermanent? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that if all consciousness were the same, then there would be just one eternal act of awareness, at least until the nibbana of those I think of as annihilationists! ;-)). I, however, don't think of all cittas as the same. Actually that's not quite properly stated. As I've said before, I don't consider cittas as entities at all, nor as separable, self-existent functions. I believe that the psychological reality is that of a sequence of acts of consciousness (actually, phassa) which consist of three aspects: knowing (vi~n~nana), known (arammana), and sense door activation (dvara), and together with each act of consciousness there co-occur concomitant features and operations (cetasika). There is no knowing except via a sense door activation, and there is no knowing without a known; there is no known without a knowing, and there is no known except via a sense door activation; and, there is no sense-door activation except in the context of, and as medium for, the knowing of some known. In addition, there are no concomitants (cetasikas) except as associated with an act of consciousness (phassa). We may analytically separate out the active sense door, the knowing, the known from each other, but they, in fact, do not occur except together, as aspects of an act of consciousness. Likewise for the cetasikas. Whenever there is a change in any aspect of an act of conscious, it is no longer the same act of consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > If we say, theoretically the change in cetasika or object signifies a > change in consciousness, what does change in consciousness mean if the > consciousness is the same? > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Assume, for a moment, my perspective that the primary occurrence is the act of consciousness, with knowing, known, sense door, and concomitants being distinguishable but inseparable aspects of it. Now suppose there are two different acts of consciousness, act A and act B. Could the knowing aspect of A be identical with the knowing aspect of B? How could they be the same? If you own two cars, car A and car B, both colored red. Can the red paint of car A be the very same red paint as is on car B? Of course not. The function is the same, but the context is different. Corresponding aspects of different occurrences may *correspond*, but they are not the same. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > ============================ With metta, Howard P.S. I wonder, Larry, whether this issue has any bearing on our Buddhist practice, and whether the answer is properly one way or the other what difference that makes with regard to our being one iota closer to liberation. (Actually, I, of course, don't really wonder about this at all. I'm quite certain that that this has no bearing whatsoever on our practice or our progress! /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26368 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, We had some exchange after that point, before you left for Bangkok and Myanmar. Please refer to this message http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26155 It is good that we have come to an accord in understanding that something in the phrase "or to something more peaceful than that" pertains to higher jhanas or higher level of samatha, but not insight/vipassana. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor [snip] 26369 From: Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Howard: "P.S. I wonder, Larry, whether this issue has any bearing on our Buddhist practice, and whether the answer is properly one way or the other what difference that makes with regard to our being one iota closer to liberation. (Actually, I, of course, don't really wonder about this at all. I'm quite certain that that this has no bearing whatsoever on our practice or our progress!" Hi Howard, Actually it has great bearing on our understanding. I have been thinking about the sutta in which someone proposes that consciousness is self. [Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the sutta.] The Buddha gets very animated about this and practically accuses the fellow of heresy. If all consciousness is the same, how do we know experientially that consciousness is impermanent and therefore not self? I had thought the Buddha's solution was that each kind of consciousness is different IN ITSELF. Apparently, this is a wrong interpretation. Every consciousness is different only in its concomitants. I guess we have to take it on faith that consciousness and its concomitants are experientially indistinguishable. I think there may be some yogins who disagree with this. Larry ps: If consciousness and its concomitants are experientially indistinguishable, why do we conceptually distinguish them? Why not eliminate consciousness as a khandha? L. 26370 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 7:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar trip Hi - To all on or back from Myanmar trip, Enjoying all the pictures and posts/reports from Myanmar. Welcome back or safe trip home ! Metta, nori 26371 From: Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 2:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/26/03 7:30:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ... > > Is your car painted green the same as "that" car painted > >red? The > >function is the same, but not the color. In a sense, do not the > >cetasikas and > >object of an act of awareness constitute the "coloration" of that > >act of > >awareness. The citta, its cetasikas, and its object are inseparable > >and co-conditioning. > > I'm not sure about 'inseparable'. Does this not tend to 'reify' the > citta/cetasika combination and its object? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't think so at all. An act of consciousness is a knowing of an object via an activated sense door. Neither the knowing, nor the known, nor the sense-door activation occur other than as aspects of an act of consciousness. But the act of consciousness, itself, is an event, an occurrence, arising only in dependence on its aspects of knowing, known, and sensory doorway, and in dependence on the coming together of earlier conditions, including sankhara, and, before that, avijja. So it is completely a fleeting, conditioned event, dependent on other equally empty phenomena. ------------------------------------------------------- While the 2 are mutually> > dependent at the very moment that the object is experienced, each > still has its own individual characteristic. As I understand it, at > a moment of, say, seeing, awareness could be aware of the seeing or > of the visible object, but not of a 'composite' of seeing-and-visible > object. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: A moment of seeing is an act of consciousness which is the knowing of a visible object via the eye door. There is no knowing of the entire act of seeing at that time, for that would involve a double object. But after the moment of seeing, there could follow an awareness of that just-passed moment of seeing. BTW, Jon, I'll ask you also: Do you find this discussion helping move you towards enlightenment? Or is it just a kind of psychological theorizing we are engaging in? (I think the latter!) ------------------------------------------------------- > > As to conditioning, there are many conditions applying at a given > 'dhamma' at a given moment, and not all of these concern the > relationship between the moment of consciousness and its object. It > helps to know of the other kinds of conditions at play also ;-)). > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Helps for what? ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26372 From: Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 2:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi, Larry - In a message dated 10/26/03 8:52:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Howard: "P.S. I wonder, Larry, whether this issue has any bearing on our > Buddhist practice, and whether the answer is properly one way or the > other what difference that makes with regard to our being one iota > closer to liberation. (Actually, I, of course, don't really wonder about > this at all. I'm quite certain that that this has no bearing whatsoever > on our practice or our progress!" > > Hi Howard, > > Actually it has great bearing on our understanding. I have been thinking > about the sutta in which someone proposes that consciousness is self. > [Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the sutta.] The Buddha gets > very animated about this and practically accuses the fellow of heresy. > If all consciousness is the same, how do we know experientially that > consciousness is impermanent and therefore not self? I had thought the > Buddha's solution was that each kind of consciousness is different IN > ITSELF. Apparently, this is a wrong interpretation. Every consciousness > is different only in its concomitants. I guess we have to take it on > faith that consciousness and its concomitants are experientially > indistinguishable. I think there may be some yogins who disagree with > this. > > Larry > > ps: If consciousness and its concomitants are experientially > indistinguishable, why do we conceptually distinguish them? Why not > eliminate consciousness as a khandha? L. > > ============================== They are distinguishable, but not separable. It's rather like the inside and outside of a box, Larry. Of the box, it's inside, and it's outside, the box is the primary with inside and outside being aspects of it, and all three are distinguishable, but interdependent and inseparable. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26373 From: Julie, Steve and Kevin Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:58pm Subject: re:"abhidhamma in daily life" Hi Nina and dsg group, I've just been reading "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" and have a question regarding ch. 21 - Samatha. What meditation subject have you found most successful in the development of calm? I see that focusing on the breath, which is what I have been concentrating on, is one of the most difficult. I was surprised to read this because it seems that mindfulness of breathing is the most commonly practiced meditative object, or am I wrong in this understanding. Bye for now Julie (officially de-lurked!- Oh the relief!) 26374 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Dear Dharam, (and Robert and Nina), I have finally caught up with this thread and am ready to butt in. ;- ) Robert, thanks so much for your reminder about conceit. I am inspired to see that you can be so objective about it. When someone says that I am conceited, that itself usually conditions many moments of conceit; self-consciousness. One of the reasons I think, is that the word `conceit' in normal everyday use carries with it a sense of moral judgment and it causes in me a reaction. But `mana' is more common than we know and exists on many levels. It is good to know however, that conceit is only fully eradicated at the level of arahattaship. We do not then have unrealistic expectations. In Myanmar, the topic on mana came up a few times, and one of the things we were reminded about was that it manifested on subtle levels, ones we would never recognize had a wise friend not pointed it out to us. For example, when we make a judgement about say, someone's clothing or even a wall painting, the implication is that `*we* could have done better!' But I guess this will go on for aeons in the future since the kilesas are still so thick, so no need to think too much about this. The point is to continue be reminded about these things without any need to "do" anything to reduce them. That endeavour would be self- defeating. Dharam, I found Nina's response to you excellent and to the point, when she said; > N: I can understand that you wonder about this, it seems so dogmatic that there is only one way. However, the Buddha spoke in the satipatthana sutta about the one and only way. There is such and such practice, the eightfold Path and it leads to the end of defilements, to nibbana. But let everybody find out for himself whether the development of the Path is the way to get closer to the goal, very gradually.< But perhaps the impression is only from the standpoint of being an `insider'. I find myself to be gradually drawn away from the tendency to suggest other people to `test it out for themselves', considering the fact that they may have no inclination to do so. Besides, we very much stress here, the connection between pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha, so in a sense it is only if someone sees it for himself `intellectually' the validity and truth of the Buddha's teachings, will there be any condition for the `practice' to take place. In which case saying `test it out' will be more a reminder than an advice. Also though you consider `conceit' a major obstacle to understanding and receptivity of other's thoughts, I personally think `attachment to views' to be particularly nasty. This does not point to any doubt in me, with regard to the Teachings themselves, but the fact that I tend to `throw my views at the other person'. Anyway this too can be known. But we *can* discuss and try to sort out our thoughts, and because `reasoning' appeals to most humans regardless of faith, doing so can bring all concerned some good, I think. So Dharam, when Robert asked you if there were any teachers who you considered as teaching the same thing as the Buddha, what I understood was that he wanted to discuss if indeed what they taught could lead to the same goal. It is not enough for me to *state* that they all point to the same goal, there is absolutely no reason for me to believe this to be the case. What are your own reasons to believe so? Also is your believing so the cause for then `disregarding' the means to achieving it, and coming to the following conclusion? >Dharam: It is the destination, NOT the path, NOR the guide, that is of the ultimate importance. If we focus on that, we may become much less attached to the path, the guide, or ourselves. They then become what they always were - practical necessities for the journey - nothing more, nothing less.< I think this is a big mistake. It conditions irrationality and blind faith, though it may sound like open-mindedness. Open-mindedness requires more than a `belief' that all paths are equally valid. It is mindfulness and wisdom of the arising reality in this very moment. Truthfulness is *knowing* what really is going on. Attachment to `path', `guide' and `self' is definitely not good, but to conclude that "They then become what they always were - practical necessities for the journey - nothing more, nothing less", is I believe a form of conceit conditioned by "wrong understanding" of the way things are. *This* I believe is a greater obstacle. To downplay the role of the teachings and consequently the teacher as being only "practical necessities" is to risk falling prey to one's own ignorance and tendency to clinging and conceit. So as Robert has pointed out, `self' can rule anywhere, anytime, both here and there. I think it wiser to consider causes, and not to think too much about results, except in their relation to the cause. Otherwise results are just projections, whereas causes can be known here and now. We first read about them and understand them intellectually, and then there may be conditions to actually see how they manifest and possibility of what they lead to. However, at no time is it necessary to dwell upon the result, it will only condition an `attachment to self'. Realities arise and fall in an instant, only `ideas' about them can be held on to, and these are not real. Dharam, in my own case, it is considering causes and not results, which is the basis of my confidence in the Buddha's wisdom. Were it the `goal' that my mind fixed upon, with this level of understanding, I would more likely end up blindly seeking `shortcuts' and be impressed by any Lao, Shankara or Jesus. And had I not come across the Buddha's teachings, I would most probably be saying the same thing as you are saying today, and not only would I be `worshiping' one of these people, I would have tried to study as much as I can from all of them. But I am glad today, that I do not have to carry such a burden. :-) The Buddha's teaching point to the reality of this moment which none of us can deny without falling into contradiction. The basis for confidence arises from just "not looking away". Other teachings demand blind faith. They posit as real, that which is unverifiable. This is so *unfair* to the believer (Sorry to be so frank here). You will probably have seen that even here amongst so called Buddhists, there is stressing the importance of distinguishing between concept and reality. Even the concept of `meditation' can be an obstacle to direct understanding of realities. There is no world beyond this moment, but none of us is enlightened to see this as "fact". But how much we accept this `intellectually' is I believe the mark of understanding of the way things are. The more we believe in the existence of things unverifiable and ignore the realities that arise here and now in this moment; the more we are fixed on the results, regardless, and ignore the cause, I think we risk being drawn further into wrong thinking and wrong practices. Hope you are not offended by my frankness, blame it on conditions one of which is `lack of firm understanding'. ;-) Metta, Sukin. Ps: I never consider myself a Buddhist, except conventionally, and that too only to show the other person my priorities. I think, again only conventionally, that it requires more than my present level of understanding to be firm in taking "refuge" in the Triple Gem. However, I would like to think that anyone is a true Buddhist when he is treading the Middle Way, which is the moment of Satipatthana. In which case, one could say that being a Buddhist is just one moment of arising and falling away. With this attitude, there is no room for `fundamentalism' as far as Buddha's teachings are concerned. Fundamentalism exists only when one is stuck on `belief'. ;-) 26375 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:22am Subject: Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Julie, Steve and Kevin" wrote: > Hi Nina and dsg group, > > I've just been reading "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" and have a question > regarding ch. 21 - Samatha. What meditation subject have you found most > successful in the development of calm? I see that focusing on the breath, > which is what I have been concentrating on, is one of the most difficult. I > was surprised to read this because it seems that mindfulness of breathing is > the most commonly practiced meditative object, or am I wrong in this > understanding. > > Bye for now > Julie > (officially de-lurked!- Oh the relief!) Hi Julie, I think that it is misleading to say that the breath is the most difficult object for meditation, for everyone. For some people it is going to be very difficult and for others it isn't going to be as difficult…we are all different. Not only that, at different times in your life the difficulty/non-difficulty of the breath as a meditation object is going to change…because we don't stay the same. For example, when I first started to meditate, some 20 odd years ago, I used the breath as my focus of meditation. It worked very well for me then. However, now I don't use the breath as much for deeper meditation, I use the element of fire (a candle), mindfulness of death, and the recollection of peace. My disposition has changed and so has my meditation. I have become more intellectual about the dhamma than in the past so these different meditations suit me more. If I had kept beginner's mind (oh, wonderful beginner's mind!) the breath would be sufficient…now it isn't, at least for me. These are just some suggestions. Use them as you see fit. If you would like to read more about the different objects of meditation and their appropriateness for different temperaments, you can at this link: http://www.palikanon.com/english/the_jhanas/jhanas02.htm Hope this helps you some. Metta, James Ps. Glad to see you come out of lurking! I love those posts without Pali! ;-) 26376 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 5:01am Subject: Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" < , some 20 odd years ago, I > used the breath as my focus of meditation. Oops, I just re-did the math and this should read 'some 15 odd years ago'...I'm not that old. ;-) (but soon enough...). Metta, James 26377 From: Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] re:"abhidhamma in daily life" Hi, Julie - In a message dated 10/27/03 3:11:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, julie_and_steve@b... writes: > What meditation subject have you found most > successful in the development of calm? ============================ I think that James' reply to the effect that what is most suitable is an individual matter is quite correct. For development in the direction of the jhanas, I have done "okay" with the breath, but much better using a mentally recited sound [manta (Pali) /mantra (Sanskrit)]. A mantra works well for me, because I have an affinity for sound. (I'm musically inclined, and, for example, I always, automatically, center my language learning around the sound-system more than the syntax.] If, on the other hand, you are visually inclined, you might try fire or light, or make a colored (or white) disk (kasina) to use as visual meditation object. On the other hand, some people do well using so-called metta meditation for this purpose. Some experimentation (and introspection) may be in order. Should you choose to use the breath, the way it is used for development of calm is a bit different from how it is used for cultivation of insight. For development of calm, attend not so much to the detailed aspects of the breath, but rather to the overall in-out flowing of the breath, allowing oneself to so-to-speak be carried along by the breath as one would be carried along by a current in a very buoyant stream, and let the mind become aware of and enjoy the pleasant bodily feelings that develop during the meditation, at some point even switching your attention over to that pleasure. (But don't look for or anticipate anything in particular happening - just keep on with the attention.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26378 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 6:24am Subject: Re: nibbana: To Sukin Dear Sukin, Dharam, Robert-s, Nina, Mike and all How are you? Sukin, I found your post to be well thought through. And your hesitance to consider yourself to be a Buddhist is also found to be an understatement. I would call anyone who likes the idea of turning away from Samsaara a Buddhist. All forms of theists, be they Vedists / Vedantists (including Vedantic Buddhists), Judaists, Christians or Muslims, could not dare to go beyond personhood (God as the Last Person), thereby remaining stuck in Samsaara. You seem to be courageous enough to stand on existential impermanence, appearing and disappearing on the spot with no room left for self or personhood. This type of courage can be found only in the followers of Gotama the Buddha. With regards, Suan PS... Thank you for the photos from Myanmar trip http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Dear Dharam, (and Robert and Nina), > > I have finally caught up with this thread and am ready to butt in. ;- > ) 26379 From: bodhi342 Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:04am Subject: Re: Nibbana Dear RobertK, We are mainly in agreement. I also believe the Buddha was a unique and Fully Enlightened Teacher. His path to Nibbana is a remarkable gift given to mankind. It is that other qualification that some insist on adding - "Only" - where the pitfall of conceit may be manifesting. Conceit indeed seems to be a very common mental factor, and we humans usually shy away from identifying it in ourselves, except at the most mundane and pain-free levels. We develop sophisticated defences to avoid honest examination. Community or collective, conceit is an equal opportunity affliction - not sparing any particular group. This is not specific to Buddhists, and I am not aware of any other group free of it. It is closely related to the identity confusion of superior/inferior self, and its extensions. Completely agree with what you wrote: "However the teaching stress over and over that any attachment, including to the Buddha or Dhamma is not wisdom and is actually harmful. Thus potentially one can learn to see this danger." We seem to be agreed that either exclusive views ('only my own religion leads'), or rejectionist ones ('no religions lead') about a path to enlightenment ......... can be manifestations of conceit. How do you think allowing for "all or many religions are essentially teaching the same thing" - is also a manifestation of conceit? Is it not a tolerant alternative, a middle option, allowing for possibilities that we cannot fairly evaluate, and therefore justifiably reject. Could it be that others speak about the same ultimate reality, in similar but slightly different terms? Can we justify rejection based on our limited understanding of the differences, yet wilfully ignore the striking similarities? Essentially, can we justify such emotional rejection, when it is not necessary for us to vigorously pursue our own path? "Thus it is always the moment, what element is arising now, that awareness can know as it is. Only in this way can the actual characteristic of each different element be known. If conceit is seen in the present moment its ugly nature can be seen." Yes. It is clinging to contemporary conceit - in this moment or generally present - that we have to clearly identify, understand and hopefully relinquish. Thanks for a stimulating conversation, RobertK. metta, dharam 26380 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar trip, whispering lobha Dear Sarah and all, delighted with the airport letters of both of you. I can imagine you both sitting at the computers. And as Azita said, you marked shopping time for dhamma time. I could imagine this! As usual a very good opportunity. Kom and other Chengmai going friends, have compassion on me, and tell me about where you went and what you discussed with whom! Kom, could you find out about the difficult phrase: thy aw? But I post the issue on sotapannas anyway, with dots. The main thing is to know that there are conditions for different types of sotapanna. In the Dhamma there is room for all types of people with different kinds of accumulations. The panna of the sotapanna who has seven rebirths is not as strong as the panna of sotapannas with six or only one rebirth. I find it helpful to know that a sotapanna can cling to all the pleasant things, cling to life in the cycle, but panna goes across all such moments and in the end he attains arahatship. We read in the Dispeller of Delusion: Thus, even a sotapanna may live in negligence. I am impressed, we see that wisdom works its way. Panna can become a power, bala, it can arise in the midst of negligence and attachment. It shows that vipassana is very natural. But of course, once the person who became a sotapanna had to begin. It teaches us, though, not to try to change our natural inclinations, but rather, to understand them. This is very comforting, we do not need to despair. <...even if he lives in all negligence, his insight knowledge comes to ripen> we read. There were also conditions for courage and energy. All the perfections have been accumulated. There are many intricate conditions working in our lives, and this explains why there are periods of slackness, doubt, despair, and also moments of courage and energy for the development of panna. It is important to understand that all those moments are conditioned. But good friends are very important for the development of panna. That is why such a trip as to Myanmar boosts one's confidence. Nina. P.S. Sarah, you need to settle down first, I hope your knee is better. Later on I would like to hear more details of the discussions, please. op 27-10-2003 01:51 schreef abbott_hk op abbott_hk@y...: > p.s Kom, Betty, Christine, Azita, Jack, O and others have all left > this morning for Chengmai and the north today... 26381 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member profile. Hi Jerdjun, Welcome to this list. Do tell us more about your study with A. Sujin, were you in Bgk? And do you belong to Jack's group in Fresno? What are your discussions like? In India I met a doctor from Fresno and his wife who is from the Philipines and a catholic. But he left the group, I think. You must know Kh O and her husband too, I think. Hoping to hear from you, Nina. op 26-10-2003 15:41 schreef Jerdjun op sutee110@y...: I live in Fresno, California. My husband, > Sutee, and I own a Thai resteurant in Fresno, and we have been > studing with Ajan Sujin for 5 years... > 26382 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:05am Subject: Tiika texts Dear Larry, I wait a little about my reaction to your letter, so engrossed with the natural root language. Connie is so kind to help me now with the following Tiika texts, and she is also doing them in the Velthuys spelling. The Tipitaka org stopped, you know. I also downloaded from the files the Vis text in Pali Jim gave us. I went to another web with iMac tool and then they give you half the Abh (enormous), but no Co. The tool worked after I had some trouble but my computer did not like so much stuff. Nina. 26383 From: robmoult Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > This view of > consciousness as being all the same is very compatible with the > Vedanta. Surprising! I have heard the term "Vedanta" a few times but don't know what it is. Please educate me. Thanks. Metta, Rob M :-) 26384 From: robmoult Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:56pm Subject: Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life" Hi Julie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Julie, Steve and Kevin" wrote: > What meditation subject have you found most > successful in the development of calm? I see that focusing on the breath, > which is what I have been concentrating on, is one of the most difficult. James and Howard have given some excellent points. Each of us has our own accumulations and as James points out, these can change over time. Another approach to choosing a mediation object is to note the defilement that gives you the most trouble. If you have a problem with desire, you might try meditating on impermanence. If you have a problem with ill will, metta meditation may be your answer. If you are often overcome by dullness or drowsiness, you may need an "active" object such as light or walking meditation. Breathing is suggested for those who suffer from restless and worry (most beginners fall into this class). If the "defilement du jour" is doubt, then study and reflection rather than meditation may be useful at this stage. Hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 26385 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 5:52pm Subject: Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life" Hi Julie, As I see it, every meditation practice taught by the Buddha is beneficial. I have not found in the discourses that the Buddha claimed one meditation practice is easier or more difficult than the other. I don't think that whether mindfulness of breathing is difficult or not is really an issue in the actual practice. I think what is more important is if one perseveres in practicing, be it mindfulness of breathing, Brahmavihara, or other meditation practice taught by the Buddha. I see that success, or rather, progress in meditation comes from practicing. If you practice and develop the mindfulness of breathing, you will benefit from your practice. Likewise for Brahmavihara or any other meditation practice taught by the Buddha. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Julie, Steve and Kevin" wrote: > Hi Nina and dsg group, [snip] 26386 From: Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 6:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi Rob, Here's a link re. "pure awareness" in the Vedanta tradition: http://www.self-realization.com/self.htm Larry ------------------ Rob: Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: This view of consciousness as being all the same is very compatible with the Vedanta. Surprising! I have heard the term "Vedanta" a few times but don't know what it is. Please educate me. Thanks. Metta, Rob M :-) 26387 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:56pm Subject: Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life" Hi Julie, Congratulations on your de-lurking. You haven't actually said why you want to meditate. Has anything in "ADL" given you the impression it is necessary for practising the Buddha's teaching, satipatthana? Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Julie, Steve and Kevin" wrote: > Hi Nina and dsg group, > > I've just been reading "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" and have a question > regarding ch. 21 - Samatha. What meditation subject have you found most > successful in the development of calm? I see that focusing on the breath, > which is what I have been concentrating on, is one of the most difficult. I > was surprised to read this because it seems that mindfulness of breathing is > the most commonly practiced meditative object, or am I wrong in this > understanding. > > Bye for now > Julie > (officially de-lurked!- Oh the relief!) 26388 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 0:48am Subject: Mana (conceit) and photo album Hi Dharam, Good to read your posts again and careful considerations;-) --- bodhi342 wrote: > Dear RobertK, > Conceit indeed seems to be a very common mental factor, and we humans > usually shy away from identifying it in ourselves, except at the most > mundane and pain-free levels. We develop sophisticated defences to > avoid honest examination. .... You make many good points and as you remind us here, no one sees the mana arising most the time (even Buddhists;-)). Unless we're arahants, 'no matter how much metta there is, there's still mana' as we were reminded on the trip. We also discussed how 'trying to know it' is not the same as understanding its quality when it arises at any time - looking at our finger nails or a picture (as Sukin mentioned), living alone without any comparing necessarily at all. Layers and layers of mana that are never known unless wisdom and awareness develops. We may think we can detect it easily in others, but this is just thinking about it and usually we have no idea about the mana arising when we think about it even now. K.Sujin mentioned its 'harsh' nature and I'm just reflecting on this. Thank you again for your comments and useful discussions with Robert, Nina and Sukin. Metta, Sarah p.s Sukin, thx for sharing your pics w/their witty captions;-)- we'll probably leave them there for a couple of weeks for everyone to see and then reluctantly have to start some culling in the album as we're almost at our limit. Newbies, to view pics of members, go to: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst Pls add a pic to the album of members (James, Kom or Chris will help if you have technical probs). Ross, I look f/w to your climbing meditation pic too;-) Derek, thanks for sharing yours. ========================================== 26389 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 0:59am Subject: The lesser evil? Dear Manu, --- Manu Wadhwani wrote: > The above example seems to suggest that a lay Buddhist would accumulate > less > bad kamma when he drinks alcohol as compared to someone else just > because > the lay Buddhist knows in advance that it is wrong to drink. ..... I’m always glad to see you posting and I understand what you’re saying. These are all good points. Actually, there many not be any bad kamma at this moment of drinking alcohol. Cittas (consciousness) are so complicated and other factors such as wise reflection, restraint and shame of wrong-doing may be key factors. Complete ignorance and wrong view about the nature and possible effects of kilesa (defilements) are most dangerous, I think. Metta, Sarah p.s Hoping you and anyone else will be able to join us in Bangkok end Jun/Beg Feb ========= 26390 From: Julie, Steve and Kevin Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 0:57am Subject: RE: [dsg] :"abhidhamma in daily life" - Ken Hi Ken, Ken wrote: Congratulations on your de-lurking. You haven't actually said why you want to meditate. Has anything in "ADL" given you the impression it is necessary for practising the Buddha's teaching, satipatthana? Julie: I'm still pretty new at this game and haven't really explored whether or not meditation is a necessary component of practising Buddhism. I've been following the discussion regarding this on dsg with interest. See Ya Julie 26391 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana A Nama? Hi Vijita (Teoh), I think this was your first message and appreciate your reminders about not having expectations or trying to persuade anyone in any particular course of action/non-action. --- teoh chee keam wrote: > Hi Ken, Howard & all, > > Let's not be passive. Whoever sow a good seed cultivate a > good harvest. I, myself a meditator never discourage anyone not to > meditate or persuade anyone to do so, against his freewill. So as not to > develop akusala kamma due to the undesireable action even we have good > intention towards the deliverance of other puthujjana. .... I think there are many definitions of meditation used here;-) I hope you and Ken H and others will continue your discussions. I'd be glad if you would tell us a little more about yourself and your understanding. Where do you live? (Malaysia??). I see you're very familiar with the Pali terms. You and other new members may also find it helpful to use the back-up posts on escribe for searches and threads: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Also, a very small percentage of posts from the archives have been put under subject headings at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah ====== 26392 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member profile. Hi Jerdjun, Thankyou also for intrducing yourself - like Jon, I enjoyed meeting friends from California (old and new) on our trip to Burma... I'm sure you're being very modest and look forward to any contributions you care to share with us;-) --- Jerdjun wrote: > Hi, I am new to the group. I live in Fresno, California. My husband, > Sutee, and I own a Thai resteurant in Fresno, and we have been > studing with Ajan Sujin for 5 years, but my knowledge about damma is > very little. Not much for me to say because I am shy, and I want to keep ..... Also, Lynn, thanks for introducing yourself and group in Victoria and for your qus on ADL. Look forward to reading more discussion between you, Nina and others. I hope I have this right when I say Julie is from Melbourne too. Jon's from Adelaide and we lived there briefly before Hong Kong. ..... And Sugiarto, thanks for your intro as well. Your English is fine and we look forward to hearing from you. Hope all's peaceful in Jakarta these days. There are quite a few members from Jakarta and elsewhere in Indonesia now. ..... For any newbies who are new to the list and new to the dhamma (not any of the above, I'm sure), you may find it useful to look at subjects 'New to the list and New to the Dhamma' and 'Abhidhamma -beginners' in U.P>: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Also there is a very simple Pali glossary at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms This Pali dictionary may also be helpful: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html Metta, Sarah ====== 26393 From: Sugiarto Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:50am Subject: MARA... ???? Hi, This my first questions for DSG . Very simple but confuse me to explaning to whom asking. Who is MARA ? Someone told me that He's an Evil's God / Satan , someone told me that It's our Evil's Mind. What the exactly he is ? And Please give me the references, what suttas that can explains who / what it is? NB: Apologize for my english . Correct me if i have mistakes. Mettacittena, S.L 26394 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] new member intro Hi Ross, --- Ross Barlow wrote: > Hello, everyone. > > I am new to this list and know that I can learn much from all of > you. I am looking forward to reading what you folks have to say. I > will probably not post much, except for occasional questions. I will > mainly look, lurk, and learn. ... Thanks so much for your detailed intro....hope you look, lurk, learn and post too;-) I'm sure you have plenty to contribute. .... > I am a 53 year old high school teacher (history and philosophy) from > northwestern Pennsylvania. My first introduction to Buddhism was an > encounter with Beatnik Zen in my youth in the 1960s, which has always > fit well with my love of mountaineering and being in wild places. I > have, in recent years, been interested more and more in the Theravadin > tradition, which is having a tremendous impact on my life. > > Thanks to Howard for telling me of this group. .... Thanks to Howard too;-) I've just looked at your link and varied interests and quotes. Now I know you'll have plenty to add here. Nice pic. Looking forward to hearing more about the impact of the Theravadin tradition on your life if you can add a little more detail and about mountain climbing meditation too. We love hiking, as do Nina and her husband, RobertK as well..... unfortunately I keep getting injured and end up with hobbling meditation instead;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Larry, I forget now, do you live in Penn too? =============================================== 26395 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: slow-witted Hi Thomas, --- nordwest wrote: > I would like to mention, that for me Victor posting was a very important > reminder, that even "social humbleness" can be an evil deed, if it is > not based on reality, but a mere lie. At least, this was how I > understood it. ..... Welcome to DSG from me too. Where do you live (or did I miss it?)? It's an interesting point you mention here - I think it very much depends on the intention and this can easily be misunderstood by different cultures. I usually appreciate self-deprecating comments or modesty as indications of not attaching importance to compliments or clinging to self. I think we just have to understand our own mental states when they arise in this regard. As you suggest, there can be false modesty, another kind of conceit as well. Look forward to more of your contributions and comments. Metta, Sarah ======= 26396 From: Julie, Steve and Kevin Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:09am Subject: RE: [dsg] :"abhidhamma in daily life" Thanks everyone for your fantastic responses. Much appreciated!!!! See ya Julie 26397 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] MARA... ???? Hi Sugiarto, --- Sugiarto wrote: > Hi, > This my first questions for DSG . > Very simple but confuse me to explaning to whom asking. > Who is MARA ? > Someone told me that He's an Evil's God / Satan , > someone told me that It's our Evil's Mind. > What the exactly he is ? And Please give me the references, what suttas > that can explains who / what it is? ... Very good questions. I've always found the subject of Mara difficult too. I think you'll find it useful to read the following posts by Nina, Bhikkhu Bodhi and Christine. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16439 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16799 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17371 .... > NB: Apologize for my english . Correct me if i have mistakes. ... Not at all. No need to apologize - we all make plenty of mistakes (even us native speakers of English;-( ). Let us know if you have further comments or questions when you've looked at these posts. Others may have further contributions to make as well. Metta, Sarah ====== 26398 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar trip --- norakat147 wrote: > Hi - To all on or back from Myanmar trip, > > Enjoying all the pictures and posts/reports from Myanmar. > > Welcome back or safe trip home ! > > > Metta, > > nori Thanks, Nori. It's good to be back! Jon 26399 From: monomuni Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 4:55am Subject: Awareness (Sati) Friends: Awareness of What ? Awareness is the prime advantage! Awareness is the chief of good states! But Awareness of What ? Friends, there are these 4 Foundations of Awareness! What four ? First, the Clever One, remains reflecting on the Body … as just an assembly; a formed cluster of mere matter! One considers this form, to be a construction liable to ageing. One understands, comprehends & fully realizes That: This ‘bio-robot’ is neither lasting, nor to be kept as owned. This ‘painted flesh doll’ is often afflicted, in pain & inevitably dies. These material qualities is neither ‘I-nor-Me’ nor ‘Mine-nor-Self’. In this way the Clever One puts away any obsession & fear rooted in this Body and thus remains just calm yet alert, fully aware & clearly conscious … Secondly, the Intelligent One, remains reflecting on the Feeling … as just a mere passing mental response to contact, born of contact. One considers pleasure, pain & indifference to be momentary mental constructs, liable to immediate fading & instantaneous vanishing. One understands, comprehends & fully realizes That: This shifting gladness & sadness is neither lasting, nor to be kept as owned. These always changing emotions therefore always are frustrating. These affective mental labels are neither ‘I-nor-Me-nor-Mine-nor-Self’. In this way the Intelligent One sets aside any attraction & repulsion rooted in these feelings & thus remains just calm yet alert, fully aware & clearly conscious … Thirdly, the Wise One, remains reflecting on the Mind … as mere ever changing, jumping, variable & labile Moods. One considers all mentality to be a formed construction liable to abrupt disappearance. One understands, comprehends & fully realizes That: This Mind is nothing but a series of momentary mental qualities, neither lasting, nor to be kept as owned, endowed with or possessed of. This Mind, mentality or moods therefore also all are dissatisfactory. This momentary Mind neither are ‘I-nor-Me-nor-Mine-nor-any-Self’... In this way the Wise One reduces any greed & hate rooted in this Mind & thus remains just calm yet alert, fully aware & clearly conscious … Finally, the Noble One, remains reflecting on all phenomena as just changing mental states, mental representations, imaging … One considers all phenomena; both physical & mental, both material & immaterial, both internal & external, both present & future to be mere mental projections, mere mental imprints, mere experience, created by conditions, flickering, fluctuating & passing by, liable to immediate decay … One understands, comprehends & fully realizes That: All phenomena, all states of this world are indeed transient & neither lasting nor to be kept as owned … All phenomena, all states of this world are disappointing & painful. All phenomena, definitely, neither are any ‘I-nor-Me-nor-Mine-nor-Self’. In this way the Noble one eliminates any desire & disgust rooted in this entire World & thus remains just calm yet alert, fully aware & clearly conscious … The 7 Milestones: Such one realizes that body, feeling, mind & all phenomena are indeed transient & not lasting … Such one realizes that body, feeling, mind & all phenomena are indeed painful & not pleasant … Such one realizes that body, feeling, mind & all phenomena are indeed impersonal & not a ‘Self’ nor a ‘Soul’ nor ‘I-Me-Ego-Mine’ … Gradually such one becomes first bored, then disgusted & do not enjoy. Gradually such one becomes disillusioned & do not inflame any lust. Gradually such one ceases activities & do initiate or take up new ones. Gradually such one let go & does not cling to anything of this world... While reflecting on transience, one eliminates the deceptive perception of permanence … While reflecting on misery, one eliminates the deceptive perception of pleasure … While reflecting on impersonality, one eliminates the deceptive perception of identity … While disgusted, one eliminates the addiction connected with delight … While ceasing, one eliminates the agitation connected with initiation … While letting go, one eliminates the bondage connected with clinging … While thus relinquishing any form, feeling, mentality & phenomena, Such Noble One is utterly, irreversibly & perfectly Freed !!! ... This, only this, is the deathlessness of Nibbana ... Yeah !!! --oo0oo-- Source: Samyutta Nikaya V 75 Patisambhidamagga XXVIII Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] Friendship is truly GREATEST; For Gladdening of Good People. Goodwill Motivates all Noble Life! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct Easy subscription by sending an email to: Buddha-Direct-subscribe@yahoogroups.com -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Should a person perform a meritorious action, he should do it again and again; he should find pleasure therein: blissful is the accumulation of merit. Random Dhammapada Verse 118 26400 From: Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 0:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life" Hi again, Julie - In a message dated 10/28/03 12:57:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Julie, > > Congratulations on your de-lurking. > You haven't actually said why you want to meditate. Has > anything in "ADL" given you the impression it is necessary > for practising the Buddha's teaching, satipatthana? > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================= I'm just writing, Julie, to make you aware that a number of members of this list, Ken H among them, believe that meditating is avoidable, or even best avoided! As you may realize from other responses you've received, that is not the opinion of all the members, a number of us believing that meditation is a basic and essential part of the Buddha's teaching. What is certain is that within the world-wide community of Buddhism, this latter, pro-meditation perspective, is the norm, certainly in point-of-view, if not always in practice. With metta, and encouragement to meditate, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26401 From: Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] new member intro Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/28/03 5:23:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes to Ross: > We love hiking, as do Nina and her > husband, RobertK as well. =========================== Ahh, the ambiguity of language! Lodewijk must have been surprised by this information!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26402 From: Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:10am Subject: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi, all - I draw your attention to the following material from the Satipatthana Sutta. The very first of these items is formal sitting meditation, and the subsequent ones begin with "Furthermore": ____________________________________ "And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? [1] "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns that he is making a long turn, or when making a short turn discerns that he is making a short turn; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short... He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication, and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. [2] "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. [3] "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. [4] "Furthermore...just as if a sack with openings at both ends were full of various kinds of grain -- wheat, rice, mung beans, kidney beans, sesame seeds, husked rice -- and a man with good eyesight, pouring it out, were to reflect, 'This is wheat. This is rice. These are mung beans. These are kidney beans. These are sesame seeds. This is husked rice,' in the same way, monks, a monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.' "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. [5] "Furthermore...just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body -- however it stands, however it is disposed -- in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.' "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. [6] "Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground -- one day, two days, three days dead -- bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'... "Or again, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground, picked at by crows, vultures, & hawks, by dogs, hyenas, & various other creatures... a skeleton smeared with flesh & blood, connected with tendons... a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood, connected with tendons... a skeleton without flesh or blood, connected with tendons... bones detached from their tendons, scattered in all directions -- here a hand bone, there a foot bone, here a shin bone, there a thigh bone, here a hip bone, there a back bone, here a rib, there a chest bone, here a shoulder bone, there a neck bone, here a jaw bone, there a tooth, here a skull... the bones whitened, somewhat like the color of shells... piled up, more than a year old... decomposed into a powder: He applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.' "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26403 From: Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 4:04am Subject: More of the Buddha's Recommendations to Meditate Hi, all - [From http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn053.html] "And how is the disciple of the noble ones devoted to wakefulness? There is the case where a monk during the day, sitting & pacing back & forth, cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. During the first watch of the night [dusk to 10 p.m.], sitting & pacing back & forth, he cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. During the second watch of the night [10 p.m. to 2 a.m.], reclining on his right side, he takes up the lion's posture, one foot placed on top of the other, mindful, alert, with his mind set on getting up [either as soon as he awakens or at a particular time]. During the last watch of the night [2 a.m. to dawn], sitting & pacing back & forth, he cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. This is how the monk is devoted to wakefulness. (Howard's note:What do you suppose is meant by "sitting & pacing back & forth"? ;-) ***************************************************************************** [From http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-030.html] "'This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one whose mind is uncentered.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. 'This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one whose mind is uncentered.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. ************************************************************ [From http://www.accesstoinsight.org/cgi/search/search.pl?Realm=&Match=0& Terms=jhanas&maxhits=10&Rank=21] Too much, all worthwhile, to quote here. All I shall quote is the multiply repeated advice towards formal meditation that is the following: Herein, Ananda, a monk having gone to the forest or to the foot of a tree or to an empty house (lonely place) contemplates thus: ******************************************************** [And, finally, from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn12.html] (Abandoning the Hindrances)"Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness & alertness, and this noble contentment, he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a wilderness, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a forest grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. "Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will & anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will & anger. Abandoning sloth & drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth & drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness & anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness & anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty. "Suppose that a man, taking a loan, invests it in his business affairs. His business affairs succeed. He repays his old debts and there is extra left over for maintaining his wife. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, taking a loan, I invested it in my business affairs. Now my business affairs have succeeded. I have repaid my old debts and there is extra left over for maintaining my wife.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "Now suppose that a man falls sick -- in pain & seriously ill. He does not enjoy his meals, and there is no strength in his body. As time passes, he eventually recovers from that sickness. He enjoys his meals and there is strength in his body. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was sick... Now I am recovered from that sickness. I enjoy my meals and there is strength in my body.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "Now suppose that a man is bound in prison. As time passes, he eventually is released from that bondage, safe & sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was bound in prison. Now I am released from that bondage, safe & sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "Now suppose that a man is a slave, subject to others, not subject to himself, unable to go where he likes. As time passes, he eventually is released from that slavery, subject to himself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where he likes. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was a slave... Now I am released from that slavery, subject to myself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where I like.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "Now suppose that a man, carrying money & goods, is traveling by a road through desolate country. As time passes, he eventually emerges from that desolate country, safe & sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, carrying money & goods, I was traveling by a road through desolate country. Now I have emerged from that desolate country, safe & sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "In the same way, when these five hindrances are not abandoned in himself, the monk regards it as a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country. But when these five hindrances are abandoned in himself, he regards it as unindebtedness, good health, release from prison, freedom, a place of security. Seeing that they have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated. (The Four Jhanas)"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again & again with water, so that his ball of bath powder -- saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within & without -- would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. When a disciple of a teacher attains this sort of grand distinction, Lohicca, that is a teacher not worthy of criticism in the world, and if anyone were to criticize this sort of teacher, the criticism would be false, unfactual, unrighteous, & blameworthy. "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure. Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies supplying abundant showers time & again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate & pervade, suffuse & fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born of composure. When a disciple of a teacher attains this sort of grand distinction, Lohicca, that is a teacher not worthy of criticism in the world, and if anyone were to criticize this sort of teacher, the criticism would be false, unfactual, unrighteous, & blameworthy. "And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born & growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated & pervaded, suffused & filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture. When a disciple of a teacher attains this sort of grand distinction, Lohicca, that is a teacher not worthy of criticism in the world, and if anyone were to criticize this sort of teacher, the criticism would be false, unfactual, unrighteous, & blameworthy. "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. When a disciple of a teacher attains this sort of grand distinction, Lohicca, that is a teacher not worthy of criticism in the world, and if anyone were to criticize this sort of teacher, the criticism would be false, unfactual, unrighteous, & blameworthy. (Insight Knowledge)"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, & bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge & vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, & dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' Just as if there were a beautiful beryl gem of the purest water -- eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its aspects, and going through the middle of it was a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread -- and a man with good eyesight, taking it in his hand, were to reflect on it thus: 'This is a beautiful beryl gem of the purest water, eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its aspects. And this, going through the middle of it, is a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread.' In the same way -- with his mind thus concentrated, purified, & bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability -- the monk directs & inclines it to knowledge & vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, & dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' When a disciple of a teacher attains this sort of grand distinction, Lohicca, that is a teacher not worthy of criticism in the world, and if anyone were to criticize this sort of teacher, the criticism would be false, unfactual, unrighteous, & blameworthy. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26404 From: bodhi342 Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Dear Sukin and Sarah, Good to see you back, and apparently refreshed. I returned to respond to a message from Htoo, posted by RobertK, answered by Nina, forwarded by a friend. A little bit of forgotten unfinished business from February. I don't know if you had a chance to follow the thread all the way back, but there are some simple questions about Nibbana, that ought to be addressed. At least if we are interested in exploring the issue of exclusivity. I sense reluctance to do so, and an impulse to to divert to more familiar territory. Let me know if this is truly the case - you know I do not have an axe to grind. ;-) [Conceit is an assumption about the mental factor that insists on exclusivity, and is more of a side-issue.] metta, dharam 26405 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. Hi Julie. Are the three of you reading together ADL ? I appreciate your interest, questions always welcome. op 27-10-2003 08:58 schreef Julie, Steve and Kevin op julie_and_steve@b...: > regarding ch. 21 - Samatha. What meditation subject have you found most > successful in the development of calm? I see that focusing on the breath, > which is what I have been concentrating on, is one of the most difficult. I > was surprised to read this because it seems that mindfulness of breathing is > the most commonly practiced meditative object, or am I wrong in this > understanding. N: You will see that I quote the Visuddhimagga, an encyclopedia written by the great Commentator Buddhaghosa. I am interested to study the Tipitaka and the ancient commentaries. Modern teachers have different ideas, but these are not my field of interest. The Visuddhimagga warns not to take breath lightly, it shows how subtle this subject is. It is a rupa conditioned by citta and it appears as hard, soft, hot, cold, motion or pressure, at the nosetip or upperlip. What type of citta conditions it? Great understanding and mindfulness are necessary, it states. Understanding: this arises with kusala citta. Cittas change so rapidly, then lobha, then kusala citta. These different moments have to be known, otherwise one develops lobha instead of panna. When we read in the suttas that the Buddha spoke about mindfulness of breathing, we have to study: to whom is this sutta addressed? To monks who had the potentials for arahatship? Some people believe that Buddhaghosa manipulated the scriptures, that he was wrong. But we can see for ourselves how conscientiously he describes all the meditation subjects. They are helpful, good for reflection. He would not gain anything by changing the teachings or by downplaying samatha. The Buddha's teachings are in the suttas, but we may overlook important points. Just like the other day: it is good Victor gave us the text: something more peaceful than that, and Steve gave the Co: also the four Paths are more peaceful: quote: And actually, the highest calm is in the sutta, but we have to read on to the end. Buddhaghosa merely elaborates on what is in the sutta, but sometimes the sutta is very compact. Samatha is taught also by other teachers, but the development of insight is specifically the Buddha's teaching. It is all in the suttas, and Buddhaghosa helps us not to overlook this, in reminding us all the time of the five aggregates, the elements, the sensefields. Coming back to meditation. There are subjects suitable for every occasion, any time, any place: the Triple Gem, metta, death, foulness of the body. Reflection on these can arise spontaneously, without trying to make it arise. I am becoming older, friends who are my age go, one after the other. We receive many announcements of death and then it is not difficult to reflect on death which is sure to come. The Buddha gave, as I said before, an extra dimension: death is not different from the passing away of citta at each moment. Whenever we read the satipatthana sutta we should keep in mind that all these meditations should bring us back to the development of understanding of the present moment. I find this the most important. I do not think of having success in development of calm, calm depends on the occasion, on the citta at a given moment. As Rob M pointed out, people have different accumulations. If someone likes to have a quiet time, for example in the early morning, he follows his accumulated inclinations. It is helpful if he also realizes that these are conditioned moments. This will help him not to cling to such moments or to cling to the idea of . Nina. 26406 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:00am Subject: Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part I Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part I The Rebirths of the Sotåpanna Introduction [1] There are four stages of enlightenment: the stage of the streamwinner, sotåpanna, of the once-returner, sakadågåmí, of the non-returner, anågåmí, and of the arahat. Defilements are successively eradicated at these four stages of enlightenment. The arahat has eradicated all defilements and thus, there are no more conditions for rebirth. The ariyans of the preceding stages will have to be reborn. The sotåpanna will not be reborn more than seven times, and this is the subject of this Issue. ****** Issue of Analysis: Will the streamwinner, sotåpanna, not be reborn more than seven times, or more than that? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: The Sotåpanna will not be reborn more than seven times. The sources which support this conclusion: 1. The ³Saddhammappakåsiní², Commentary to the ³Path of Discrimination², Patìsambhidåmagga, Commentary to Treatise II, on Views, 706. 2. The ³Dispeller of Delusion², Commentary to the ³Book of Analysis², Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge, Decads, 2162. 3. The ³Pañcappakaranatthakathå², Commentary to the fourth Book of the Abhidhamma, the ³Puggalapaññatti², ³Human Types², Ch I, by One, 39, ³single-seeded², ekabíjin. 4.The ³Sumangalavilåsiní², Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², Commentary to the ³Questions of Sakka² (II, no 21). The explanation of the reason for this conclusion: Several texts of the Commentaries explain about the kinds of rebirth of the sotåpanna. 1. We read in the ³Saddhammappakåsiní², Commentary to the ³Path of Discrimination² about three types of sotåpanna: 1. The sotåpanna who is reborn seven times at most, sattakkhattuparama. 2. The sotåpanna who goes from clan to clan, kolankola. 3. The sotåpanna with a single seed, ekabíjin. We read: ³As to the words, of the person who is reborn seven times at most (sattakkhattuparamassa), this means that seven times is the most, and that he will not assume an eighth rebirth after he became this person. Thus he is a sotåpanna who is reborn seven times at most, sattakkhattuparama. As to the words, of the goer from clan to clan (kolankolassa), this means that he is not born in a lower clan, but only in a wealthy family so that he can realize the fruition of the sotåpanna. This is the sotåpanna who goes from clan to clan, kolankola. As to the words, with a single seed, ekabíjin, it is said that seed means the seed of the khandhas. This sotåpanna has only one seed of the khandhas [2]. He only has this one life and thus he is called ³single seeded². He has to assume one personality only, he germinates only once. The Buddha created these different names for these sotåpannas. The person who is called ³seven times at most², sattakkhattuparama, has reached just this status. The person who is called ³who goes from clan to clan², kolankola, has reached just this status. The person who is called ³with a single seed², ekabíjin, has reached just this status. These are the names the Buddha gave to those persons. Truly, the Buddha knew what status such and such people would reach and thus he created the appropriate names for them. It is true that the sotåpanna whose understanding is weak will be reborn seven times, and he is called, ³who will be reborn seven times at most². The sotapanna whose understanding is of medium degree will not be reborn after the sixth existence, and he is called ³who goes from clan to clan². The sotåpanna who has strong understanding will only be reborn once, and he is called ³single seeded². The fact that sotåpannas have different degrees of understanding, weak, medium and strong, is determined by conditions stemming from the past. These three kinds of sotåpanna have been referred to as having rebirth in the sensuous planes. However, many of them were reborn also in the planes of rúpa brahmas and arúpa brahmas [3].² It can be concluded that the sotåpanna does not have an eighth rebirth. He will not be reborn more than seven times, no matter whether he is reborn in the sensuous plane or in the planes of the rúpa brahmas or arúpa brahmas. Footnotes: 1. I wrote this introduction. 2. The khandhas arising and falling away during one single existence. 3. Rebirth in these planes is the result of rúpa-jhåna, material jhåna, and arúpa-jhåna, immaterial jhåna. Nina. 26407 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:13am Subject: Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Howard and all, I just wanted to point out and emphasize to everyone that awareness of feelings/(bodily sensations), and mind contents/objects/ideas should be tried to be held all throughout the day as much as possible. ... Since it is throughout the day that that moments of suffering are experienced and less likely in sitting meditation. When moments of suffering are experienced during the day, I think it is valuable to stop and take time to reflect and contemplate upon - What was the cause of that suffering, that unpleasent bodily sensation? When moments of suffering are experienced during the day, I think it is valuable to stop and take time to reflect upon - What were the sequence of thoughts/mind contents that led up to these moments of suffering, unpleasent bodily sensations? Many times these things will go by unrecognized unless an effort is made at that moment to discern it. In the opening section of the Maha Satipatthana suttana - "And how, bhikkus, does a brother so continue to consider the body?..." It follows in that paragraph: "Parimukham satim upatthapati" which means literally: "set up his memory in face of (the object of his thought)" -(Pali text society translation) It is most valuable that a log be kept of events in memory of what you are observing i.e. bodily sensations and mind contents, for they must be recalled for contemplation. This is evident in the sutta line: "...mindfulness hereof becomes established, far enough for the purposes of knowledge and of self collectedness." - Pali text society "Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance." - Thanissaro Bhikkhu. There will be memory as long as there is awareness. The stronger the awareness the stronger the memory. while the Satipatthana does begin specifically with the instruction for breathing meditation: "having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise..." It is obvious from the rest of the Sutta that awareness of bodily sensation and mind contents should be held all day as much as can be done. We must also keep in mind that the most important goal in Satipatthana is to eliminate all of your suffering. While some may have very lofty goals of seeing the ultimate reality of nature, ability to see past lives, and other supernatural powers, we must not lose sight of what the main purpose of this practice is for. The practice, is done, in order recognize and to discern the source of your suffering, and then to eliminate it. I imagine, and do witness, that many people before even completing the task of recognizing and eliminating all of their suffering, grasp at the more "loftier" goals of discerning the ultimate reality of our existence. May all beings be happy, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > I draw your attention to the following material from the Satipatthana ---snip--- > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26408 From: Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi, Nori - In a message dated 10/28/03 1:18:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, nori_public@a... writes: > > Hi Howard and all, > > I just wanted to point out and emphasize to everyone that awareness > of feelings/(bodily sensations), and mind contents/objects/ideas > should be tried to be held all throughout the day as much as possible. > > ============================== I agree with you. In fact, my current practice consists basically of the following: Guarding the senses, ongoing mindfulness "at regular times", and sitting samatha meditation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26409 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Larry's place Hi Sarah, I think Larry lives in Montana, must be very good for trekking, Nina. op 28-10-2003 11:22 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > p.s Larry, I forget now, do you live in Penn too? 26410 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:03pm Subject: Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Julie. > Are the three of you reading together ADL ? I appreciate your interest, > questions always welcome. > op 27-10-2003 08:58 schreef Julie, Steve and Kevin op > julie_and_steve@b...: > > > regarding ch. 21 - Samatha. What meditation subject have you found most > > successful in the development of calm? I see that focusing on the breath, > > which is what I have been concentrating on, is one of the most difficult. I > > was surprised to read this because it seems that mindfulness of breathing is > > the most commonly practiced meditative object, or am I wrong in this > > understanding. > N: You will see that I quote the Visuddhimagga, an encyclopedia written by > the great Commentator Buddhaghosa. I am interested to study the Tipitaka and > the ancient commentaries. Modern teachers have different ideas, but these > are not my field of interest. > The Visuddhimagga warns not to take breath lightly, it shows how subtle this > subject is. It is a rupa conditioned by citta and it appears as hard, soft, > hot, cold, motion or pressure, at the nosetip or upperlip. What type of > citta conditions it? Great understanding and mindfulness are necessary, it > states. Understanding: this arises with kusala citta. Cittas change so > rapidly, then lobha, then kusala citta. These different moments have to be > known, otherwise one develops lobha instead of panna. > When we read in the suttas that the Buddha spoke about mindfulness of > breathing, we have to study: to whom is this sutta addressed? To monks who > had the potentials for arahatship? > Some people believe that Buddhaghosa manipulated the scriptures, that he was > wrong. But we can see for ourselves how conscientiously he describes all the > meditation subjects. They are helpful, good for reflection. He would not > gain anything by changing the teachings or by downplaying samatha. > Hi Nina, Though you don't mention me by name, I probably fall into this category of people you are describing. For the record, I don't believe that Buddhaghosa manipulated the commentaries in regard to the meditation subjects. This should be apparent because I provided a link to Julie that describes his translated commentary in detail. I believe it is original and un-manipulated, as well as extremely useful. Just wanted to point this out. However, it doesn't state that the breath is the most difficult of the meditation subjects, as far as I know. Yes, the breath is subtle and the mind can play tricks, but that goes for the other meditation subjects as well. Where exactly does the commentary state that it is the most difficult? I am very curious about this because I have seen this idea scattered throughout different posts in this group and I am not sure where it came from. Metta, James 26411 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:14pm Subject: Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi Howard and all, > > I just wanted to point out and emphasize to everyone that awareness > of feelings/(bodily sensations), and mind contents/objects/ideas > should be tried to be held all throughout the day as much as possible. > > ... Since it is throughout the day that that moments of suffering are > experienced and less likely in sitting meditation. Hi Nori, I agree with your other points but not this one. Suffering is a constant of the human condition and is experienced at all times, even during sitting meditation. Actually, I would state that it is especially experienced during sitting meditation; that is why sitting meditation is so difficult and unappealing to most people. I believe that you are thinking of the suffering that comes from the vicissitudes of life, the gross manifestations of suffering, but that isn't where the true problem lies. The problem lies with the Root of Suffering, the subtle and constant suffering stemming from mind moments, and that suffering is usually only seen in the midst of meditation (for the wordling, that is). Metta, James 26412 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > I agree with you. In fact, my current practice consists basically of > the following: Guarding the senses, ongoing mindfulness "at regular times", and > sitting samatha meditation. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, If it isn't too personal, would you mind describing somewhat how you go about 'guarding the senses'? I have come across this phrase quite often in sutta translations and I don't think I understand what it means. I can understand guarding the mind and its reactions to the senses, but I don't understand guarding the senses. Metta, James 26413 From: Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Larry's place Hi Nina & Sarah, I live in Boulder Colorado. It's good for trekking but I don't go farther than the nearest donut shop. Larry ----------------- Nina: Hi Sarah, I think Larry lives in Montana, must be very good for trekking, Nina. op 28-10-2003 11:22 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: p.s Larry, I forget now, do you live in Penn too? 26414 From: Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi, James - In a message dated 10/28/03 6:48:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > If it isn't too personal, would you mind describing somewhat how you > go about 'guarding the senses'? I have come across this phrase quite > often in sutta translations and I don't think I understand what it > means. I can understand guarding the mind and its reactions to the > senses, but I don't understand guarding the senses. > > Metta, James > ============================= I understand guarding the senses to actually be a guarding of the mind. Most of the time, when there is contact via the sense doors but mindfulness is weak and one is not vigilant, one reacts with aversion/craving/confusion depending on the vedanic flavor of the object, but with heightened mindfulness and vigilance (with an eye towards seeing what's coming and reacting usefully or not at all), akusala reacting can be avoided, or at least cut short if already begun. By such mindful vigilance one can often head off harmful states that have not yet occured, terminate harmful states that have begun, foster useful states not yet arisen, and sustain and further useful states that have already begun. This is my understanding of guarding the senses. Unfortunately, my practice of guarding the senses is more often along the lines of closing the barn door after the horse has escaped - that is, at best cutting short the akusala response rather than forestalling it, but at other times I can do better than this. What I do find is that the more often and regularly I *think* about maintaining mindfulness and vigilance, the more consistently this then occurs, the more consistently I *remember* to guard the senses. The repeated thinking about doing this, reiterating in the mind the *intention* to be vigilant, seems to foster its occurrence. (This reminds me a bit of cultivating lucid dreaming. The more one *thinks* about it and *intends* to do it, the more easily does it occur.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26415 From: Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:49pm Subject: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi again, James - I had defined guarding the senses as basically a combination of mindfulness with vigilance. To clarify, what I'm talking about is a mindful vigilance to avoid being swept away by the current of experience, much as a sentinal at the gates of a city is watchful for attacks to which the city may be vulnerable. I hope this captures the sense I'm trying to convey. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26416 From: nordwest Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 7:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... May be this quote helps: If you want to know the One, do not reject the data of the six senses. If they are not rejected they are the same as Enlightenment. 3rd Patriarch of China > Teaching: Have Faith In Your Mind http://www.shakumasu.com/ upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, James - ... I understand guarding the senses to actually be a guarding of the mind. Most of the time, when there is contact via the sense doors but mindfulness is weak and one is not vigilant, one reacts with aversion/craving/confusion depending on the vedanic flavor of the object, but with heightened mindfulness and vigilance (with an eye towards seeing what's coming and reacting usefully or not at all), akusala reacting can be avoided, or at least cut short if already begun. By such mindful vigilance one can often head off harmful states that have not yet occured, terminate harmful states that have begun, foster useful states not yet arisen, and sustain and further useful states that have already begun. This is my understanding of guarding the senses. 26417 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Hi Dharam, Sarah, and All, > Good to see you back, and apparently refreshed. I returned to > respond to a message from Htoo, posted by RobertK, answered by Nina, > forwarded by a friend. A little bit of forgotten unfinished business > from February. As Azita says, Myanmar is just a memory, the same realities here as there. Hope this time Dharam, you do not have to leave and no business is left unfinished. ;-) > I don't know if you had a chance to follow the thread all the way > back, but there are some simple questions about Nibbana, that ought > to be addressed. At least if we are interested in exploring the > issue of exclusivity. I sense reluctance to do so, and an impulse to > to divert to more familiar territory. Let me know if this is truly > the case - you know I do not have an axe to grind. ;-) If you are willing, then I have no reluctance at all to discuss anything, as long as we can all be reasonable. And if there is a territory, it is `clear reasoning' that I am happy to be in. I do not like to think about Nibbana for the reason that I can't even get a glimpse of what it might be, since all I know is what goes on through the five senses and the `conditioned thinking' always limited by the memory of these same five sense door experiences. Even to say that it is `not' this, `not' that, the mind still analyzes and makes deductions, and I believe that there is so much room for clinging to one conclusion or the other. I am happy to take it on faith and some logical reasoning just this much; that Nibbana is the object of Lokuttara citta. And between Magga and Phala cittas, the former is just one citta moment for each of the stages of enlightenment. And this is all that is needed for final release from Samsara. It is not important to dwell on the peace of Nibbana as `fruit' (phala), so there is absolutely no reason for me to contemplate about it. But I do believe that as one comes to know more and more the nature of conditioned realities, automatically, one gets an increasingly better understanding of what the `unconditioned' Nibbana might be, i.e. when there are conditions for such a reflection. But I am far from any direct understanding of these realities, so better not to think too much about that which I have no idea about! ;-) In fact, early on when I was still quite new to Abhidhamma, I asked K. Sujin, Sarah was also there, and if I remember right, she also was curious to know, that can't panna develop just by accumulation to the point of enlightenment, without needing to experience Nibbana? Her answer was short, but what I vaguely understood then, was that for the `conditioned' to be known perfectly, it must be known in relation to the `unconditioned'. The implication of this as I see it, one is that it requires increasing familiarity of conditioned realities, from gross `particular' characteristics of each nama and rupa, to the direct apprehension of the universal characteristic of anicca, dukkha and anatta. The other is that "knowing" the unconditioned Nibbana, means that one *must* know these same conditioned realities perfectly. Contemplating a bit about it, Nibbana is not a state of mind, nor is it anything that can give rise to any thought about being here or there or all around or nowhere. There is no observer/observed duality nor is there a "oneness", a sense of `unity' (to me this sounds like the ultimate conceit). It is not some state of mind that one `prefers' to dwell in, as against everyday conditioned realties. It *can't* be the object of desire, though misunderstanding it, one *does* seek a concept of something which goes by the same name, and this is just one's mental projection. And within the scope of mental projections with wisdom (not of the vipassana kind) or without, many *do* things with the aim of reaching certain states of mind and experiences. Those with the wisdom, who see the harm in unwholesome mental states and the benefit of wholesome ones, have different views about the ultimate goal, some even use the same label- Nirvana, as Buddha did. However, not knowing about conditionality and anatta, their understanding is quite if not completely different from what the Buddha taught. Depending on accumulations and temperament, some will seek `Godhead', `Tao', `cessation of form', `cessation of mind', `infinity of space', `neither perception nor non perception' etc. However all these only result in suppression and sublimation of unwholesome states of mind and if the `meditations' do progress successfully; they result in the most sublime states of mind. But they do not lead to complete eradication of defilements, and as Nina and Victor were discussing recently, this is far inferior to the peace of Nibbana, as in the case of *complete* eradication. Actually, the goal of all other religions is just *different* from the Buddha's teachings!! What the Buddha taught, was about the Four Noble Truths, which when viewed from different angles can be identified in terms of `conditionality/unconditioned', `nama, rupa (/Nibbana)', `5 khandhas/ Nibbana', `Dhatu', `Ayatana' or even `dependent origination / transcendental dependent origination'. No other religion teaches this. Why? Because they have *not* seen the "Truth"! Some will even claim to aim at `getting out of the cycle of birth and death', however, only the right cause can bring about the right result. And not understanding the conditioned realities of the present moment is *not* the right cause to attenuate and finally eradicate defilements, such that at some point Nibbana will then be experienced and "doubt" will finally cease. Having said the above, I must say that I do greatly admire *all* the wise men of the past, especially those who have independently (conventionally and comparatively speaking), come upon the understanding that they have, and more so, the sincere determination to not allow unwholesome tendencies to rule their lives. As I said before, when I first reflected on the life of the Buddha's contemporaries, especially his teachers, I was greatly impressed by their accumulations of wisdom. However, with the sanna of the Buddha's Teachings, I can't be bothered with anything else. And I don't understand why some Buddhists would like to for example, practice jhana. Having the accumulations for it is one point, I think a person who does have it, must as I understand it, be so sensitive to `lobha', that he would feel completely uncomfortable living the modern life. And though he may know about anatta and conditionality which would then cause him not to deliberately seek better conditions; I think he should then also see more value in satipatthana as capable of being developed only "naturally". And if he `did' see any real value in the Buddha's teachings, he will see that it is `vipassana panna' and not `samatha panna' which is more worthy of accumulation. Besides, after reading the other day, Rob M's description of `Planes of Existence', knowing that one can be *stuck* on some Brahma plane for a time that it takes even several Buddha's to come and go, risking being reborn as one, implies a really BAD choice, I think ;-). > [Conceit is an assumption about the mental factor that insists on > exclusivity, and is more of a side-issue.] Though my own understanding is not much to feel any good about, and there are many conditions for doubt and uncertainty, there is no other teachings I would give any priority to. I hope you now get a better picture and see why `exclusivity' is the result. That it is not so much, `*my* Teacher and Teachings', but more `*Teachings* and Teacher' as against `other Teachings' and consequently the `other Teachers'. In other words, I am inclined to say that it is more about `reasoning' (and some experience), than `assumption' or `identification'. But of course, this does not mean that `mana' does not come in, in fact it can even be more so. :-) Metta, Sukin. 26418 From: Julie, Steve and Kevin Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 0:03am Subject: RE: [dsg] re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. Nina wrote: Are the three of you reading together ADL (Julie, Steve and Kevin)? I appreciate your interest, questions always welcome. Julie: Thank you for your detailed response. I have much to reflect on. As for Steve and Kevin, they are my husband and 3 year old. Steve has just decided to read "Buddhism in Daily Life" I think as a means of deciphering what on earth I'm talking about! I've actually just joined Lynn's group in Melbourne. They are responsible for introducing me to this new language of 'namas' and 'rupas' and I'm afraid I am a lost cause being completely and utterly fascinated. Bye Julie 26419 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 0:56am Subject: Myanmar2 - self-view & tapes Dear Nina, I’ll try to add a little more on the the first qu you asked me to raise on the trip. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > As to points of discussion in Myanmar, intellectually we can understand > that > sakkaya-ditthi and other ditthis are extremely subtle. We can also cling > to > "me" just with lobha, no wrong view or conceit. It would be helpful to > hear > more about it. ..... There was so much discussion on this topic. (If anyone is interested to listen, I think the tapes will be very helpful. I’ve just listened to the first couple which are very clear. To get copies, pls send an email to K.Supatsorn at the Foundation, specifying whether you prefer cassette or MP3 and giving the dates (i.e 17th-25th Oct inc). "Supassorn Jindathai" These include ‘official’ tapes made at the Foundation and on the last day of the trip and ‘unofficial’ tapes made by Jon on the trip. Let me or Sukin know off-list if there are any problems. Costs including postage have already been covered, but pls mention DSG or my name and be patient as K.Supatsorn and others are very busy!) Just a few notes from my jottings on mana(conceit) and sakkaya ditthi (self-view) to add to comments Sukin and I have given already on mana. I hope others will add more: K.Sujin: “Develop the mind and you’ll find out everything, like theory and exercise...” On self-view, “When awareness is aware, it’s there. When there is awareness, the characteristic is there - no need to think too much - just develop understanding, otherwise it’s like we’ve understood the reality already.” “.....More and more subtle (degrees), eg heat through the body. Understanding develops - develop and let go of everything - even the heat. Very subtle, taking whatever appears as me.” In other words, there can be awareness and understanding of heat and then taking it for self immediately afterwards or just attachment - it depends. She also mentioned that sakkaya ditthi was the ‘lightest’ view. She said that other views were the same, but the content was different, eg ‘computers’ and ‘things’. When there is self-view, there are bound to be other wrong views. Metta, Sarah ====== > Sarah: > quite sure that at the higher stages of insight any lingering > > sakkaya-ditthi and other ditthi are extremely subtle. Even now, > amongst > > grosser forms, I am sure there are many subtle variants that we have > > little idea about. Quite possibly, too, that many so called conceits > (or > > sense-of-self’ cittas), may with more wisdom turn out to be one form > of > > ditthi or other. They follow each other so very closely, I find.> 26420 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:56am Subject: Myanmar3 - Nirutti Patisambhida & Pali Dear Nina (& Larry), > Q 2: about the four discriminations: > Very high degrees of panna, some mundane, some lokuttara as the Tiika > says. > We cannot even try to grasp what they are, and when reading texts we > meet > many difficulties. Such as nirutti, language. <...> ..... I asked more on this difficult qu and also on points from the texts about Magadha or Pali as being the speech of Ariyans, ‘the individual essence’ language and references to children and animals speaking Pali. This is what I made notes on, repeated here in parrot fashion;-): Realities are represented by words. The meaning is understood when the word is heard. It depends on accumulations (for those with patisambhidas (discriminative knowledges) whether there may be more of one of the 4 knowledges. Just as not all arahants have equal understanding, not all those with patisambhidas have equal discriminative knowledges. Pali is the ‘individual essence language’ just for the one who speaks Pali or reads it already. It doesn’t mean the sotapanna or other ariyans have to speak or learn the language. Without nirutti patisambhida (discriminative knowledge of language), one cannot really undestand the words represented in the dictionary. For us, we hear a word such as feeling or vedana and we cannot really understand what it means. For those with this knowledge, the word conditions understanding. Because the texts were written in Pali, therefore for those reading them, it is the essential language, conditioning knowledge of reality and understanding of the meaning. We are born at this time, so we can’t know what happened in old times (eg examples of animals speaking etc). It’s not necessary to study Pali. It depends on the understanding, not the language. Patisambhidas don’t depend on Pali. All ariyans, even the sotapanna has attha patisambhida (discriminative knowledge of result) - knowledge of no self and of conditions. It is the same path leading to enlightenment as to the patisambhidas. It just depends on accumulations as to whether the patisambhidas will be fully developed. All ariyans have patisambhida knowledges, all are trainers, but to different degrees and they are only fully developed and realized by some arahants only. Panna (understanding) directly knows reality as it is, it ‘disciminates’. ***** More on Pali study - a conversation between K.Sujin and myself: KS: The point of studying is to understand realities, otherwise what you think you know by words in this life in this language, next life is in a different language and so you forget everything. S: What about Pali being the real Buddha-vacana... KS: What’s the objective in studying it? S: Different people have different objectives. Some people feel they can only understand the Teachings by studying in Pali. By reading and studying the Pali, the meaning will be deeper.. KS: Only for those who already know realities. For example, Pali may have been your language in your last life, now you’ve forgotten it. You might have recited lots of Pali suttas and abhidhamma, now there is no understanding of Pali. There can be understanding, no matter what language. S: We should be grateful that the Teachings have come down to us in Pali because this is the way they’ve kept their authenticity. We should be grateful for those who’ve learnt Pali to transmit and translate... KS; ... to understand reality correctly. Otherwise there’s no point just to remember sounds of Pali and meanings of the words. S: So one just studies or learns as much as is helpful to condition more understanding of reality. KS: Yes. S: What about more study or translation work to help others have access to the Teachings.. KS: to understand reality clearer and better. ..... Later she added that for those who have good understanding, studying Pali is useful but for those who study Pali without understanding, they just follow their wrong views. Metta, Sarah ==== 26421 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Hi Dharam, --- bodhi342 wrote: > I don't know if you had a chance to follow the thread all the way > back, but there are some simple questions about Nibbana, that ought > to be addressed. ... I assure you that all the posts were being passed around the bus in Myanmar;-) .... At least if we are interested in exploring the > issue of exclusivity. I sense reluctance to do so, and an impulse to > to divert to more familiar territory. Let me know if this is truly > the case - you know I do not have an axe to grind. ;-) ..... Perhaps we can all agree that there is only ever the present moment and present reality that can be known. No nibbana now, but seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, conceit and other namas and rupas arising and falling away. These can be known and tested out - common to all, nothing exclusive and no special labels needed;-) Any objections? Metta, Sarah ===== 26422 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Larry's place Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina & Sarah, > > I live in Boulder Colorado. It's good for trekking but I don't go > farther than the nearest donut shop. > > Larry > ----------------- .... Donut meditations;-) Boulder, Colorado became famous when that little child beauty queen was murdered I think. I remember now, I made this association before. .... > Nina: Hi Sarah, > I think Larry lives in Montana, > must be very good for trekking, ..... Sanna vipallasa (perversion of perception). We say this, but actually sanna vipallasa arrives with each moment of akusala citta(unwholesome consciousness). I think that was Dan in his Montana cabin and also Shakti lives in Montana- sounds beautiful. Metta, Sarah ====== 26423 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi James & Nori, --- buddhatrue wrote: > I agree with your other points but not this one. Suffering is a > constant of the human condition and is experienced at all times, even > during sitting meditation. .... As you imply, suffering in its ultimate sense is one of the three characteristics of all realities because of their impermanent nature. This is regardless of whether there is any understanding of it or of the realities or not. ..... --- norakat147 wrote: > I just wanted to point out and emphasize to everyone that awareness > of feelings/(bodily sensations), and mind contents/objects/ideas > should be tried to be held all throughout the day as much as possible. ... Held by whom or what, I wonder?? .... > ... Since it is throughout the day that that moments of suffering are > experienced and less likely in sitting meditation. > > When moments of suffering are experienced during the day, I think it > is valuable to stop and take time to reflect and contemplate upon - > What was the cause of that suffering, that unpleasent bodily > sensation? ..... Would this be thinking or awareness?? Good to see both your posts. Nori, we discussed a little more on accumulations, natural decisive support condition and sappaya sampajanna (right comprehension of suitability) on the trip....I’ll try to add more tomorrow. Metta, Sarah ===== 26424 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:28am Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, James - > > I had defined guarding the senses as basically a combination of > mindfulness with vigilance. To clarify, what I'm talking about is a > mindful > vigilance to avoid being swept away by the current of experience, much > as a sentinal > at the gates of a city is watchful for attacks to which the city may be > vulnerable. I hope this captures the sense I'm trying to convey. ..... So doesn't guarding the senses refer to mindfulness of seeing and visible object, hearing and sound and so on for the other sense doors so that at those moments, these namas and rupas are not followed by clinging to the details and ideas about these? As you suggest, at those moments of mindfulness, there is vigilance already. No self to do anything! I like the analogy of the sentinal at the city gates. Good to read your discussions with Ken H in our absence;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 26425 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - ============================= > I understand guarding the senses to actually be a guarding of the > mind. Most of the time, when there is contact via the sense doors but mindfulness > is weak and one is not vigilant, one reacts with aversion/craving/confusion Hi Howard, Thanks for this input. I think the mistake I make is that I take this phrase too literally. I see "guarding the senses" and I imagine that one is supposed to somehow carefully control what objects come in contact with the senses, from the environment. I could imagine how a monk might do this, by limiting contact with the outside world, but I wasn't sure how a layperson was supposed to do this. If you interpret this to mean an internal process, then I guess it does makes it more feasible for the layperson. Metta, James 26426 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James & Nori, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > I agree with your other points but not this one. Suffering is a > > constant of the human condition and is experienced at all times, even > > during sitting meditation. > .... > As you imply, suffering in its ultimate sense is one of the three > characteristics of all realities because of their impermanent nature. This > is regardless of whether there is any understanding of it or of the > realities or not. > ..... Hi Sarah, No, I don't think I imply that at all. I wrote that suffering is a constant of the human condition, not of all realities. I don't believe that a chair, for example, suffers. Remember, I don't accept the Abhidhamma with its theories of rupa. Metta, James 26427 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > No, I don't think I imply that at all. I wrote that suffering is a > constant of the human condition, not of all realities. .... It must have been wishful thinking on my part;-) .... I don't > believe that a chair, for example, suffers. ..... Does anyone? .... >Remember, I don't accept > the Abhidhamma with its theories of rupa. .... Right! Metta, Sarah ====== 26428 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 4:10am Subject: Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Howard, --------------- H: > I draw your attention to the following material from the Satipatthana Sutta. The very first of these items is formal sitting meditation, and the subsequent ones begin with "Furthermore": ----------------- I'm not sure of the point you are making, could you elaborate? As you know, this sutta has been extensively discussed on dsg; I'd like to make a few comments based on what I have learnt so far: ------------- SS: > "And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? [1] "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness ------------- Is it necessary to go into the wilderness and practise mindfulness of breathing in order to remain focused on the body in and of itself? Or is this simply the description of one case in which it happens (i.e., the case of the most accomplished of all jhana meditators). -------------- SS: > [2] "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. . Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. --------------- So it is not only when practising anapanasati that right mindfulness of the body can occur. Can we say the Buddha *prescribed* anapanasati as a means of bringing satipatthana into being? If he did prescribe it, did he also prescribe walking, standing and sitting (and every other disposition of the body)? ---------------- SS: > [3] "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. ------------------- Apart from sleep, is there any bodily activity in daily life during which a monk cannot make himself fully alert? ------------------ SS: > [4] "Furthermore...just as if a sack with openings at both ends were full of various kinds of grain -- wheat, rice, mung beans, kidney beans, sesame seeds, husked rice -- and a man with good eyesight, pouring it out, were to reflect, 'This is wheat. . . . . This is husked rice,' in the same way, monks, a monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, ------------------ Is there any part of the body that cannot be seen, with right mindfulness, as mere rupa? ----------------- SS: > [5] "Furthermore...just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body -- however it stands, however it is disposed -- in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.' ------------------ Whatever we know as the body is always, in absolute reality, just the elements. ------------------- SS: > [6] Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground -- one day, two days, three days dead -- bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'... ---------------------- The absolutely real characteristics of rupa -- anicca, dukkha and anatta -- can be seen as vividly as can the conventionally real characteristics of a stinking corpse -- impermanence, loathsomeness and the absence of an abiding self. Is that how you understand the sutta? How does this extract signify what you have called, "The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta" Kind regards, Ken H 26429 From: shakti Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:08am Subject: Myanmar Dear Friends, It has been over 25 years since I first visited Burma, now known as Myanmar and it has changed dramatically since then. The jet age has certainly turned the once isolated, exotic country into a popular vacation destination. Burma in many ways is still like the Burma that I remembered from years ago. Both men and women still wear the traditional longyi and slippers, smoke their aromatic cheroot cigars and women continue to paint their faces with thanaka paste as a form of beautification. And even though new crisp bank notes (previously very old and very dirty) are everywhere there remains an active black market. No trip to Burma would be complete without going to Rangoon (now Yangon) to visit the famous Shwedagon Pagoda, where eight hairs of the Buddha are enshrined. One sees the pagoda long before arriving at it's steps, as the pagoda is 327 feet high and towers above most of Rangoon. The top of the pagoda is capped with thousands of diamonds and other precious stones, the cap stone being a 76 carat diamond. It is covered with more than 60 tons of pure gold. The main pagoda is surrounded by 72 smaller temples or chedis, most of them too crowned by golden pagodas. Words can't describe the incredible awe that it evoked in me. It was absolutely majestic and even seemed other worldly somehow. The gold and diamonds were dazzling and with the setting sun seemed to be on fire. Walking around the pagoda was spectacular. Devout Buddhist stopped to pay their respect at many of the Buddha statues, to make offerings of incense, flowers, candles and money. The deep sound of bells and gongs added to the other worldly atmosphere. At one point some from our group of 108, sat with Khun Sujin in one of the temples for dhamma discussion. The trip was an amazing experience, it was a rich mix of visiting pagodas or chedis, experiencing the beauty of Burma's lush landscape and having the opportunity to discuss dhamma with Khun Sujin and other friends. Special thanks to all of those english speaking dhamma friends, Sarah, Betty, Jon, Christine, Azita, Sukin, Sandra, Jack, Noi and Num, who shared so freely of their experiences and gave support and encouragement as I struggled at times to understand dhamma. I feel very grateful to have had the opportunity to have had dhamma discussions everyday with Ajahn Sujin. I especially appreciated her kindness and marveled at her immense patience, as we asked question after question. She was extremely generous with her time and her willingness to share her deep understanding with us. I was amazed at how she listened to the 'stories' that we would tell, then would cut to the heart of the issues that we raised. She gave us constant reminders that 'now' can only be experienced 'now.' The following are a few quotes of Khun Sujin that relate to different questions that were raised. If in anyway I have misquoted her please forgive me and let me know. Please forgive me for not going into the questions, but hopefully her words will be of help to you anyways. If anyone is interested in hearing more about the discussions perhaps you could email or call the foundation for copies of the tapes. Thank you Jon for making those tapes. "Any reality that one takes for self is wrong view." "Panna sees attachment as attachment and not self." "Whispering lobha" "If not now? When?" "Ignorance is the darkest darkness." "Life is one process to another to another." "Anything which is real is dhamma." "Before giving advice consider if the person wants advice." "What do you mean by meditation?" "Is meditation the understanding of nama and rupa?" "What about meditation? Just throw it away. Would you like to keep it?" "Seeing is real, it is not I, it is conditioned." "At moment of seeing and clinging to visible object, at that moment is there clinging to self?" With metta, Shakti 26430 From: Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:46am Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/29/03 5:29:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi again, James - > > > > I had defined guarding the senses as basically a combination of > >mindfulness with vigilance. To clarify, what I'm talking about is a > >mindful > >vigilance to avoid being swept away by the current of experience, much > >as a sentinal > >at the gates of a city is watchful for attacks to which the city may be > >vulnerable. I hope this captures the sense I'm trying to convey. > ..... > So doesn't guarding the senses refer to mindfulness of seeing and visible > object, hearing and sound and so on for the other sense doors so that at > those moments, these namas and rupas are not followed by clinging to the > details and ideas about these? > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Simple mindfulness is most of it. But that doesn't quite fully describe the matter. There must be an ongoing, repeated intention to be aware and not allow being swept away. This is where the vigilance seems to come in. Intention, intention, and yet more intention is important in this. The thing is: At the moment a sight, sound, odor, taste, bodily sensation, or mind-door object enters awareness, it it *too late* to first exercise mindfulness and reactive "control" - it will be automatic (already determined) at that point. There must be prior heightened attention and intention (with high energy - viriya), a sharp readiness, and this must occur repeatedly, so that when it is time for appropriate response and avoiding of harmful response, the necessary conditions are already in place. ------------------------------------------------------ As you suggest, at those moments of> > mindfulness, there is vigilance already. No self to do anything! > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Never a self to do anything - not at the moment of arising at a sense door, nor in advance of that. No self doing anything at all, but the doing occurring none the less. ----------------------------------------------------- I like> > the analogy of the sentinal at the city gates. > > Good to read your discussions with Ken H in our absence;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26431 From: Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi, James - In a message dated 10/29/03 6:12:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for this input. I think the mistake I make is that I take > this phrase too literally. I see "guarding the senses" and I imagine > that one is supposed to somehow carefully control what objects come > in contact with the senses, from the environment. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, this would be very limited in possibility of carrying out - one could close ones's eyes, shut one's ears. It reminds me of the three monkeys: See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil! ;-)) This, of course, is a practice that could *easily* involve and worsen aversion. On the other hand, the aspect of guarding the mind which involves fostering useful states and not proliferating and concocting harmful ones is important. When the mind is running towards lustful thoughts, for example, there are moments at which it is possible to increase or decrease the momentum, to turn towards or to turn away - there is choice, and it is important then to *remember* the Dhamma, and act accordingly. ------------------------------------------------------ I could imagine > how a monk might do this, by limiting contact with the > outside world, > but I wasn't sure how a layperson was supposed to do this. If you > interpret this to mean an internal process, then I guess it does > makes it more feasible for the layperson. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I think it is always prudent to externally minimize putting oneself in harm's way, but the essential practice is internal. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, James > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26432 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:02am Subject: Re: The Centrality of ...) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Howard: > Yes. Simple mindfulness is most of it. But that doesn't quite fully > describe the matter. There must be an ongoing, repeated intention to be aware > and not allow being swept away. This is where the vigilance seems to come in. > Intention, intention, and yet more intention is important in this. ================== Dear Howard, A few questions: What is simple mindfulness? Why do you say intention is the main factor? Could someone who hasn't heard deep Dhamma expreince the 'simple mindfulness' you mention? Say I suggested to someone that they focus calmly and carefully on the breath, or feelings; would that be mindfulness that the Buddha meant? RobertK 26433 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:33am Subject: Re: Myanmar Dear Shakti, I still haven't made it to Burma. Such a great country, where the Abhidhamma and Tipitaka is still cherished. Thanks very much for the quotes from A. Sujin. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti > The following are a few quotes of Khun Sujin that relate to different questions that were raised. If in anyway I have misquoted her please forgive me and let me know. Please forgive me for not going into the questions, but hopefully her words will be of help to you anyways. If anyone is interested in hearing more about the discussions perhaps you could email or call the foundation for copies of the tapes. Thank you Jon for making those tapes. > > "Any reality that one takes for self is wrong view." > "Panna sees attachment as attachment and not self." > "Whispering lobha" > "If not now? When?" > "Ignorance is the darkest darkness." > "Life is one process to another to another." > "Anything which is real is dhamma." > "Before giving advice consider if the person wants advice." > "What do you mean by meditation?" > "Is meditation the understanding of nama and rupa?" > ====- We might want to know dhamma. But instead of knowing the reality at that moment of wanting (tanha, i.e wanting itself), perhaps we look for something else that we think we must do first. And this is because of the idea that dhammas last , that there is something lasting (for a second or split second, or longer) . Or one has doubt about Dhamma or about what the path really is. So instead of knowing doubt and seeing its conditioned nature, one might turn away from doubt and try to force it away; take up what seems to be a clearcut method that convinces one they are on the right path. And so things get complicated. Robert K 26434 From: bodhi342 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:14am Subject: Re: nibbana Hi Sarah, > I assure you that all the posts were being passed around the bus in > Myanmar;-) > Perhaps we can all agree that there is only ever the present moment > and present reality that can be known. No nibbana now, but seeing, > hearing, thinking, feeling, conceit and other namas and rupas > arising and falling away. These can be known and tested out - > common to all, nothing exclusive and no special labels needed;-) > Any objections? > Metta, > Sarah This topic seems to cause the arising of irritation and impatience -- presumably just in the present moment of course! How can there be any objection to everyone returning to familiar territory? No need to consider anything else now. In any case these are just concepts. :) metta, dharam 26435 From: Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi, Ken - I will reply to a few points, in context: In a message dated 10/29/03 7:14:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --------------- > H: >I draw your attention to the following material from > the Satipatthana Sutta. The very first of these items is > formal sitting meditation, and the subsequent ones begin > with "Furthermore": > ----------------- > > I'm not sure of the point you are making, could you > elaborate? As you know, this sutta has been extensively > discussed on dsg; I'd like to make a few comments based on > what I have learnt so far: > > ------------- > SS: >"And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & > of itself? [1] "There is the case where a monk -- having > gone to the wilderness > ------------- > > Is it necessary to go into the wilderness and practise > mindfulness of breathing in order to remain focused on > the body in and of itself? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: No. but this is what is called for here, and it is the *first* thing mentioned. the point is not that of wilderness or cave, but of seclusion. My point also, was that the very first thing mentioned was a formal sitting meditation. (I suggest you also examine the material quoted in my follow-up post.) ------------------------------------------------- Or is this simply the> > description of one case in which it happens (i.e., the > case of the most accomplished of all jhana meditators). ------------------------------------------------- Howard: No. There is no basis for this. -------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > SS: >[2] "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns > that he is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is > standing. When sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. . > Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns > it. > --------------- > > So it is not only when practising anapanasati that right > mindfulness of the body can occur. Can we say the Buddha > *prescribed* anapanasati as a means of bringing > satipatthana into being? If he did prescribe it, did he > also prescribe walking, standing and sitting (and every > other disposition of the body)? > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: He prescribed mindfulness of the body in all modes. I have not claimed and do not claim that only formal, sitting maditation was called for. But it is primary. It was then, and it has been throughout the history of Buddhism. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------- > SS: >[3] "Furthermore, when going forward &returning, he > makes himself fully alert; when looking toward &looking > away... when bending &extending his limbs... when > carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe &his bowl... > when eating, drinking, chewing, &savoring... when > urinating &defecating... when walking, standing, > sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, &remaining > silent, he makes himself fully alert. > ------------------- > > Apart from sleep, is there any bodily activity in daily > life during which a monk cannot make himself fully alert? > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Fully?? Well that depends on the training one has put oneself through!! Nothing comes from nothing, nothing ever will! (Nice lyric, I think. ;-) --------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------ > SS: >[4] "Furthermore...just as if a sack with openings > at both ends were full of various kinds of grain -- > wheat, rice, mung beans, kidney beans, sesame seeds, > husked rice -- and a man with good eyesight, pouring it > out, were to reflect, 'This is wheat. . . . . This is > husked rice,' in the same way, monks, a monk reflects on > this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the > crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of > various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are > head hairs, body hairs, > ------------------ > > Is there any part of the body that cannot be seen, with > right mindfulness, as mere rupa? > > ----------------- > SS: >[5] "Furthermore...just as a skilled butcher or his > apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a > crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk > contemplates this very body -- however it stands, however > it is disposed -- in terms of properties: 'In this body > there is the earth property, the liquid property, the > fire property, &the wind property.' > ------------------ > > Whatever we know as the body is always, in absolute > reality, just the elements. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm. Good theory. Nice to read about. Much better to directly know! -------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------- > SS: >[6] Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast > away in a charnel ground -- one day, two days, three days > dead -- bloated, livid, &festering, he applies it to this > very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is > its future, such its unavoidable fate'... > ---------------------- > > The absolutely real characteristics of rupa -- anicca, > dukkha and anatta -- can be seen as vividly as can the > conventionally real characteristics of a stinking corpse > -- impermanence, loathsomeness and the absence of an > abiding self. > > Is that how you understand the sutta? How does this > extract signify what you have called, "The Centrality of > Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta" > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26436 From: Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 10/29/03 10:07:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > >Howard: > > Yes. Simple mindfulness is most of it. But that doesn't > quite fully > >describe the matter. There must be an ongoing, repeated intention > to be aware > >and not allow being swept away. This is where the vigilance seems > to come in. > >Intention, intention, and yet more intention is important in this. > ================== > Dear Howard, > A few questions: > What is simple mindfulness? > Why do you say intention is the main factor? > Could someone who hasn't heard deep Dhamma expreince the 'simple > mindfulness' you mention? > Say I suggested to someone that they focus calmly and carefully on > the breath, or feelings; would that be mindfulness that the Buddha > meant? > RobertK > > =============================== Well, in my complete post and my other posts on this topic, I've made myself about as clear as I think I can. The repeated acts of intention are preparatory and cultivational. Robert, instead of questioning me further on this matter I would love to hear your opinions on it. Even better, I would be very interested in hearing of your real-life experience with guarding the senses and its relation to what you have read on the subject. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26437 From: bodhi342 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Hi Sukin, "As Azita says, Myanmar is just a memory, the same realities here as there. Hope this time Dharam, you do not have to leave and no business is left unfinished. ;-)" Azita is absolutely correct - the same attitudes, motivations, instincts etc. are here as anywhere else. That should have been expected, and is now verified. It is the same sky. We can try to partition it and call it our own special, particular bright area. Others may do the same, calling it their own. That bright area is now our new reality. Therefore, how dare any outsider contemplating that same sky, try to suggest a coherence, or even that dirty word - 'unity'? What a silly notion? What a dangerous one? What a conceited one? Thanks to you and others, I have come to understand, there is no more unfinished business for me here. metta, dharam 26438 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:21am Subject: Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part II Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part II 2. The ³Dispeller of Delusion², Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge, Decads, 2162, explains about the remaining rebirths of each class of sotåpannas, and in particular about the sotåpanna who is attached to life in the process of existence (vatta, the cycle of birth and death). We read: ³For the Master, after judging with the Buddha¹s judgement, after defining with omniscient knowledge that: ŒThis person has the greatest understanding of all and keen insight and he will grasp Arahatship after producing one existence more only,¹ created the name ŒOne with a single seed¹ (ekabíjin); [knowing] that: ŒThis person will grasp Arahatship after producing a second, a third, a fourth, a fifth, a sixth existence,¹ he created the name ŒOne who goes from clan to clan¹ (kolankola); [knowing] that: ŒThis person will grasp Arahatship after producing the seventh existence,¹ he created the name Œseven times at most¹ (sattakkhattuparama). But there is no person who is certain of seven existences. But the Noble Disciple attains complete extinction before the eight existence in whatever way his understanding is slow. He only goes to a seventh existence, even if he enjoys the process [of existence] as much as Sakka. In the seventh existence, even if he lives in all negligence, his insight knowledge comes to ripen. Feeling revulsion for even the smallest object, he arrives at peace.² 3. The ³Pañcappakaranatthakathå², Commentary to the ³Puggalapaññatti², ³Human Types², Ch I, by One, 39, ³single-seeded², ekabíjin, explains about the sotåpanna who enjoys the cycle of birth and death: ³Some sotåpannas are inclined to life in the cycle, they enjoy the process of existence and they traverse different lives. The following people had this inclination: Anåthapindika the layfollower Visåkhå Cúlaratha deva Mahåratha deva Anekavanna deva Sakka, King of the devas Någadatta deva All these people had attachment to life in the cycle of birth and death. They were born in the six classes of deva worlds, beginning with the lowest class, and they purified their minds in those deva worlds. They were established in plane of akanittha [4] and then attained parinibbåna. ... The sotåpannas who were reborn in the human world and were there reborn again, were reborn not more than seven times and then attained arahatship. The sotåpannas who were reborn in the deva worlds were there reborn again, but they were reborn not more than seven times and then attained arahatship. ......² The ³Sumangalavilåsinií², Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², Commentary to the ³Questions of Sakka² (II, no 21), gives an additional explanation about the rebirth of Sakka, the King of Devas: ³It is said that when he departed from his existence as Sakka, he was going upwards in the stream of life to the plane of akaniììha, because he had attained to the stage of anågåmí. First he was born in the Aviha plane [5] and finally he was born as brahma of the akaniììha plane.² We see from the texts that even the sotåpanna who was attached to life in the cycle, such as King Sakka, would only be reborn seven times. Therefore, sotåpannas will not be reborn more than seven times, no matter whether they are reborn only in the human world, or only in the deva planes, or in both kinds of planes. Or even if they are reborn in the devaplane until they attain the stage of the anågåmí and are then reborn in five classes of the Pure Abodes and attain arahatship in the akanittha plane, they will not be reborn more than seven times. Footnotes 4. Non-returners, anågåmís, can be reborn in the ³Pure Abodes², suddhåvåsa, which are five heavens of the fine-material world. The highest of these is the akanittha plane. 5. The lowest class of the ³Pure Abodes². ******** Nina. (end of this series, will be sent later on to Zolag web) 26439 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 28, 29, 30, 31 Hi Larry, op 25-10-2003 19:48 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > ""Prior effort" is devotion to insight in the dispensation of former > Buddhas, up to the vicinity of [the stages of] conformity and > change-of-lineage by one who has practiced [the duty of] going [with the > meditation subject on alms round] and coming back [with it]." > I think this sentence is decisive in stating that the 4 discriminations > are developed before a path moment. N I just read the opposite: They come after the fruitions. Your above quoted text is about prior effort. meditation subject on alms round] and coming back [with it]> I like this text and have read about the monk who goes to the cedi and pays respect. It makes meditation very daily. It can apply to a samatha object and to insight, I think both. L: "For the discriminations come to success in noble ones only through the > noble fruition as the ten powers do in Perfect Ones." N: Yes. > L: we might say we don't really know what we are talking > about until we have realized egolessness up to at least the first stage > (sotapanna). N: I think they are above our heads. L:Furthermore, I would say all these discriminations are > abilities or skills in analyzing abstract, conceptual, path related, > knowledge. How do you see it? N: I do not see them in this way, it must be a very high degree of panna no longer realized now in this world. I am almost through with Tiika texts Conni gave me. They are very many pages, and I have to make a choice, cannot translate them all. I need advice from Sarah too. Nina. 26440 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. Dear James, op 28-10-2003 23:03 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > Though you don't mention me by name, I probably fall into this > category of people you are describing. For the record, I don't > believe that Buddhaghosa manipulated the commentaries in regard to > the meditation subjects. This should be apparent because I provided > a link to Julie that describes his translated commentary in detail. > I believe it is original and un-manipulated, as well as extremely > useful. Just wanted to point this out. N: I really appreciate your interest. In fact several teachers, monks, even members of our Pali list have a negative view of Buddhaghosa. J: However, it doesn't state that the breath is the most difficult of > the meditation subjects, as far as I know. Yes, the breath is subtle > and the mind can play tricks, but that goes for the other meditation > subjects as well. Where exactly does the commentary state that it is > the most difficult? N: In the "Path of Purity" by Buddhaghosa. It is explained that we should not take it lightly. The same "Path of Purity" also explains how difficult access concentration and jhana are. I quote what I wrote before: You asked Howard about restraint of the senses. Here is a sutta: Middle Length Sayings 38: < Whenever the monk perceives a form with the eye, a sound with the ear, an odour with the nose, a taste with the tongue, an impression with the body, an object with the mind, he neither adheres to the whole, nor to its parts. and he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things, greed and sorrow would arise, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses.> Thus, when you see colour immediately negative reactions may follow, after seeing, and then we are going on thinking about them, through the mind-door. There are many levels of this restraint. It is one among the monk's morality he has to observe. It can be observed on the level of all kinds of good deeds, the level of morality of laymen, tranquil meditation and on the level of vipassana. The arahat has perfect equanimity because of perfect restraint. As Howard rightly remarked, it is difficult, usually harm is done already. He reminds himself and this helps. I think the sutta words are a very good reminder as well. I find the following sutta helpful. ³Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M 28, translation of Wheel 101). We read : The same is said about feeling, perception , aggregate of formations or activities and consciousness. We then read: ³And his mind enters into that very object (taking it just as an impersonal) element, and acquires confidence, steadiness and decision (herein)². He developed understanding of the five aggregates and learnt to see them as impersonal elements. That is the way. The Buddha in many suttas spoke about colour and the other sense objects as they are experienced through the senses and the mind-door. If we take them all together: O, that terrible neighbour, that terrible country. If the neighbour speaks sharply, we can understand that hearing only hears sound. Are we cross with sound? I wrote before about the Elephant's Footprint: I thought of you the other day. Ramadhan has started and before dawn moslims eat. Here they let homeless people share with their meal. Another side of Islam. I appreciate your efforts with the students. Lodewijk says, one should go out of one's way and one additional step. Nobody asks for it but it is decisive, he said. His principal guideline in personal diplomacy. Openmindedness for the other party, interest in their culture, religion. There are many Islamic studies on our universities. So, we can apply the teachings on all levels. Nina. 26441 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Larry's place Hi Larry, do not eat donuts. Nina. op 29-10-2003 01:22 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > I live in Boulder Colorado. It's good for trekking but I don't go > farther than the nearest donut shop. 26442 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re: a practical sutta for laymen. Dear Howard, op 28-10-2003 14:59 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I'm just writing, Julie, to make you aware that a number of members of > this list, Ken H among them, believe that meditating is avoidable, or even > best avoided! As you may realize from other responses you've received, that is > not the opinion of all the members, a number of us believing that meditation > is > a basic and essential part of the Buddha's teaching. What is certain is that > within the world-wide community of Buddhism, this latter, pro-meditation > perspective, is the norm, certainly in point-of-view, if not always in > practice. N:I understand that you point this out. As I wrote before, in the Dhamma there is a place for all kinds of accumulations. The same is true for dsg, fortunately. We do not always agree, but respect the other's viewpoint. Sometimes misunderstandings arise: people may think that there is an anti meditation club here ;-)) Another point you rightly stressed some time ago was: about living in the world of ultimate realities and in the world of conventional realities. Forgive me if I misunderstand you, but you rightly indicated that one can go too far in saying, there are only nama and rupa, or, this is only thinking. In a way this is true, but, our life in the world concerns also conventional realities. Lodewijk also said that we have to be careful in our explanations. I shall now quote a sutta the Buddha spoke to laypersons where we find a perfect balance. Thanks for all the suttas on jhanas, I do not deny that what the Buddha said to monks can be applied to laypeople. But here in this sutta the Buddha does not speak about jhana. He did not say, everybody must develop concentration and jhana. It is the sutta on Longknee, the Koliyan (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Eights, Ch VI, § 4.). I use the transl of Wheel no 14. The Buddha speaks about four conditions for worldly progress: accomplishment of persistent effort, he earns his living by trading, farming, etc. He is able to carry out and allocate duties. The accomplishment of watchfulness: he looks well after his possessions. Good friendship: he associates with those of faith, virtue, charity and wisdom. Balanced livelihood: he leads a balanced life, not extragavant nor miserly, . The Co refers to the Sigalovadasutta (Dialogues of the Buddha) where it is said that a layman divides his income in four portions: one for his wants, two on his business and one he keeps for times of need. Then there are four conditions for spiritual progress: accomplishment of faith, of virtue, of charity and of wisdom. The arising and cessation of the five aggregates: this can be achieved by developing precise understanding of each presently arising nama and rupa, through insight. Here, to laymen, the Buddha did not say: use jhana as a basis for insight, or, here are the roots of trees. And how full of practical advice is this sutta. I like the stress on right friendship. Nina. 26443 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:25am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part II ---Dear Nina, I wondered about the tense in these sentences: In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > The ³Sumangalavilåsinií², Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², > Commentary to the ³Questions of Sakka² (II, no 21), gives an additional > explanation about the rebirth of Sakka, the King of Devas: > > ³It is said that when he departed from his existence as Sakka, he was going > upwards in the stream of life to the plane of akaniììha, because he had > attained to the stage of anågåmí. First he was born in the Aviha plane [5] > and finally he was born as brahma of the akaniììha plane.² > ============== I thought that sakka would still be sakka because of the longlife in the deva world and wouldn't be born in other worlds till the future. with respect RobertK 26444 From: Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re: a practical sutta for laymen. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/29/03 1:24:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > N:I understand that you point this out. As I wrote before, in the Dhamma > there is a place for all kinds of accumulations. The same is true for dsg, > fortunately. We do not always agree, but respect the other's viewpoint. > ================================ Indeed. Respect for the other's viewpoint, and, even more, respect for the other's good will and basic goodness. With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26445 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 0:18pm Subject: Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James, > op 28-10-2003 23:03 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > > > Though you don't mention me by name, I probably fall into this > > category of people you are describing. For the record, I don't > > believe that Buddhaghosa manipulated the commentaries in regard to > > the meditation subjects. This should be apparent because I provided > > a link to Julie that describes his translated commentary in detail. > > I believe it is original and un-manipulated, as well as extremely > > useful. Just wanted to point this out. > N: I really appreciate your interest. In fact several teachers, monks, even > members of our Pali list have a negative view of Buddhaghosa. Dear Nina, Well, I didn't know that others felt the same way that I do about Buddhaghosa. I haven't encountered any in this group and thought I might be the odd man out. After all, I base most of my opinion on the extra sensory perceptions I receive while reading his writings: those writings that disturb me I sense they have been fabricated or manipulated, those writings that give me a feeling of peace I sense they are original. Not the most scholarly approach I know but it works for me. Yes, taking the breath as a meditation object shouldn't be taken lightly. I have no disagreement about that. Moreover, I still believe its level of difficulty is going to be dependent on the individual. Thank you for the additional sutta quotes about guarding the senses; they are beautiful. I believe that this is one aspect of the teaching that many of us take for granted, assume we know what it means, but we don't really. How can you know what it means to do something when you can't really do it, or can do it only rarely? I still don't think I completely know what it means because I am not proficient at it. (I wonder, how can you do this if you are often times overwhelmed by ESP input? I don't believe the Buddha spoke to this.) Metta, James 26446 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi James and all, A chair does not suffer, nor do birth and death. But birth is dukkha, and so is death. Every thing, phenomenon, incident, event, relation, et cetera in the world is dukkha. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: [snip] > Hi Sarah, > > No, I don't think I imply that at all. I wrote that suffering is a > constant of the human condition, not of all realities. I don't > believe that a chair, for example, suffers. Remember, I don't accept > the Abhidhamma with its theories of rupa. > > Metta, James 26447 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi James and all, > > A chair does not suffer, nor do birth and death. But birth is > dukkha, and so is death. Every thing, phenomenon, incident, event, > relation, et cetera in the world is dukkha. > > Peace, > Victor Hi Victor, Here is what the Buddha had to say about suffering (dukkha): "Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha." Now, if you notice, everything that the Buddha describes as being dukkha is associated with human beings (and other living entities). He doesn't mention anything about non-living things, like chairs, being dukkha. Suffering is only a quality to being alive, not to absolute reality. Metta, James 26448 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) - Cultivative speech and posts From: "rjkjp1" > > Dear Howard, > > A few questions: > > What is simple mindfulness? > > Why do you say intention is the main factor? > > Could someone who hasn't heard deep Dhamma expreince the 'simple > > mindfulness' you mention? > > Say I suggested to someone that they focus calmly and carefully on > > the breath, or feelings; would that be mindfulness that the Buddha > > meant? > > RobertK > > ... > Robert, instead of questioning me further on this matter I would love > to hear your opinions on it. Even better, I would be very interested in > hearing of your real-life experience with guarding the senses and its relation to > what you have read on the subject. > > With metta, > Howard > ---- From: "kenhowardau" I'm not sure of the point you are making, could you elaborate? As you know, this sutta has been extensively discussed on dsg ---- I must agree with Howard. Instead of questioning posts and statements people make, it would be much more beneficial for everybody if all of the statements and posts people made were contributing. e.g. ... is that your opinion? ... well this is my opinion. Questioning statements people make without offering new information benefits nobody. Even if it leads one to contemplate the subject, its a waste of time compared to just offering their view. ---- Also, I believe making posts on subjects that were already discussed are good since there are many of us here who are new here. If everyone is discussing advanced subjects and there is not enough on the basics then that would not be good for newcomers and beginners. peace, nori 26449 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Sarah, First, welcome back from Myanmar. Looks like you guys had a fun trip. > --- norakat147 wrote: > > I just wanted to point out and emphasize to everyone that awareness > > of feelings/(bodily sensations), and mind contents/objects/ideas > > should be tried to be held all throughout the day as much as possible. > ... > Held by whom or what, I wonder?? Very often you and others point out to me or remind me about Anatta (not-self), but I must admit that these replies are not helpful to me since I have yet to experience it. I read it in the Suttas and everyone talks about it but it is not my truth till I experience and understand this. For now, here "I" sit, ME, encapsulated in this skin. My mind/cognition however... I'm not too sure about. If however, you can elucidate Anatta in any way for me, I would be greatful. I have read the Suttas on the reasoning of - feelings, etc. arising and passing and so therefore not-self but I don't quite understand it. ---- > .... > > ... Since it is throughout the day that that moments of suffering are > > experienced and less likely in sitting meditation. > > > > When moments of suffering are experienced during the day, I think it > > is valuable to stop and take time to reflect and contemplate upon - > > What was the cause of that suffering, that unpleasent bodily > > sensation? > ..... > Would this be thinking or awareness?? > When moments of bodily sensations/feelings are felt, pleasent, unpleasant, or neither pleasant or unpleasant ... this is awareness. When one takes the moment to contemplate, recollect the events ... then this would be thinking as instructed by the blessed one. ---- > Good to see both your posts. Nori, we discussed a little more on > accumulations, natural decisive support condition and sappaya sampajanna > (right comprehension of suitability) on the trip....I'll try to add more > tomorrow. Looking forward to reading them. Still working on downloading the picture ... been busy, also I don't seem to like any of my pics, will try to find one thats not so corny ;) metta, nori 26450 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:45pm Subject: Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > I agree with your other points but not this one. Suffering is a > constant of the human condition and is experienced at all times, even > during sitting meditation. I agree with you on that, but like you have said later in your post the gross manifestations are experienced very often throughout the day; these, I think you will agree, should be recognized by continuous awareness upon the body throughout the day. This I think is very important to emphasize especially for those starting out on Satipatthana who have so many gross manifestations, they cannot even begin to concentrate on the more subtle ones, or the mechanism in itself during sitting meditation. > The problem lies with the Root of > Suffering, the subtle and constant suffering stemming from mind > moments, and that suffering is usually only seen in the midst of > meditation (for the wordling, that is). Agreed, but like I said above. peace, nori 26451 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:01pm Subject: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi all, Somebody wrote: > At the moment a sight, sound, odor, taste, bodily sensation, or mind-door > object enters awareness, it it *too late* to first exercise mindfulness and > reactive "control" - it will be automatic (already determined) at that point. There > must be prior heightened attention and intention (with high energy - viriya), > a sharp readiness, and this must occur repeatedly, so that when it is time > for appropriate response and avoiding of harmful response, the necessary > conditions are already in place. I don't understand why here and in the Suttas, they speak as though much of our suffering takes place when objects enter our awareness through the sense doors (and then clinging to them)? Like if I'm walking down the street, see a beautiful woman, car, house or pastries in the window and all of a sudden I'm suffering because I desire or crave the object. Or I feel a beautiful woman, car, house or taste pastries in the window and all of a sudden I'm suffering because I cling to the object. I think most suffering (in our modern world) stems from having unfulfilled dreams and desires of living a certain kind of life, career, etc. Having a certain social life, friends, money, etc. How do we guard our senses against desires like these ??? peace and metta, nori 26452 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi James, People uses chairs and sit on them. Yet a chair, like our body, is inconstant, subject to change. Sooner or later, it breaks and disintegrates. It is dukkha. However, usually people don't grieve, lament, suffer, or get angry over a broken chair. Why not? Because they are not passionate about it. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: [snip] > > Metta, James 26453 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Nori, Body is not self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Mind is not self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Body and mind is not self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi Sarah, [snip] 26454 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi victor, Like I said, I have read it, now how do I witness this ? peace, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > Body is not self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right > discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not > my self." > > Mind is not self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right > discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not > my self." > > Body and mind is not self. It is to be seen as it actually is with > right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is > not my self." > > Peace, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" > wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > [snip] 26455 From: Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:29pm Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi, Nori - In a message dated 10/29/03 10:03:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, nori_public@a... writes: > > Hi all, > > Somebody wrote: > > >At the moment a sight, sound, odor, taste, bodily sensation, or > mind-door > >object enters awareness, it it *too late* to first exercise > mindfulness and > >reactive "control" - it will be automatic (already determined) at > that point. There > >must be prior heightened attention and intention (with high energy - > viriya), > >a sharp readiness, and this must occur repeatedly, so that when it > is time > >for appropriate response and avoiding of harmful response, the > necessary > >conditions are already in place. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The "somebody" was me. ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- > > > I don't understand why here and in the Suttas, they speak as though > much of our suffering takes place when objects enter our awareness > through the sense doors (and then clinging to them)? > > Like if I'm walking down the street, see a beautiful woman, car, > house or pastries in the window and all of a sudden I'm suffering > because I desire or crave the object. Or I feel a beautiful woman, > car, house or taste pastries in the window and all of a sudden I'm > suffering because I cling to the object. > > I think most suffering (in our modern world) stems from having > unfulfilled dreams and desires of living a certain kind of life, > career, etc. Having a certain social life, friends, money, etc. > > How do we guard our senses against desires like these ??? > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Suffering is mental pain due to craving and aversion. That craving or aversion always arises as a reaction to a sense-door object. But don't forget that one of the most important sense doors is the mind door! Just as we can be vigilant with regard to not reacting with craving or aversion to what arises through the five physical sense doors, by letting go, by averting attention, and by not concocting further, this can be done as well with regard to mind-door objects such as thoughts, emotions, imaginings, memories etc. When we sense, due to heightened energy and watchfulness that a memory of a loss, for example, is about to arise, we can note that it is just an unpleasant memory, and let it go rather than ruminate, and cogitate, and replay it again and again with constantly increasing detail and resulting distress. ------------------------------------------------------- > > > peace and metta, > > nori > > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26456 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Nori, How do you witness what? I want to make sure if I understand your question. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi victor, > > Like I said, I have read it, now how do I witness this ? > > > peace, > nori [snip] 26457 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar2 - self-view & tapes Dear Sarah, thank you very much, also about patisambhidas and Pali, very good. I jotted down dates of tapes and ask for them when in Bgk. I do not understand , see below. Nina. op 29-10-2003 09:56 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > She also mentioned that sakkaya ditthi was the lightest’ view. She said > that other views were the same, but the content was different, eg > computers’ and things’. When there is self-view, there are bound to be > other wrong views. 26458 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar Dear Shakti, Thank you very much for your report, I was delighted to read it. I think we are going to meet in Bgk next year, looking forward, Nina. op 29-10-2003 15:08 schreef shakti op deannajohnsonusa@y...: > > It has been over 25 years since I first visited Burma, 26459 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:07pm Subject: FW: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094] Dear Sarah, this was a topic here: doing evil with ignorance of akusala. See below for just English. ---------- Van: John Kelly Beantwoord: Pali@yahoogroups.com Datum: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:27:20 -0800 (PST) Aan: Pali Onderwerp: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094] Pali - Every few days - [B094] Gair/Karunatillake - Chapter 5 ? Further Readings Ex. 3. (Part 1 of 2) Raajaa aaha: ?Bhante Naagasena, yo jaananto paapakamma.m karoti, yo ajaananto paapakamma.m karoti, kassa bahutara.m apu~n~nan?ti? The king said: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one who does evil unknowingly?? Thero aaha ?yo kho, mahaaraaja, ajaananto paapakamma.m karoti, tassa bahutara.m apu~n~nan?ti. The elder replied: "Indeed, great king, for him who does evil not knowing is the greater demerit?. ?Tena hi, bhante Naagasena, yo amhaaka.m raajaputto vaa raajamahaamatto vaa ajaananto paapakamma.m karoti, ta.m maya.m digu.na.m da.n.demaa?ti. "In that case, venerable Nagasena, he who is our prince or king?s chief minister who not knowing does evil, we would doubly punish him?. English: The king said: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one who does evil unknowingly?? The elder replied: "Indeed, great king, for him who does evil not knowing is the greater demerit?. "In that case, venerable Nagasena, he who is our prince or king?s chief minister who not knowing does evil, we would doubly punish him. 26460 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. Dear Julie, Do tell us more about Lynn's group. If Steve has remarks about BDL, everybody here will welcome his input. Nina. op 29-10-2003 09:03 schreef Julie, Steve and Kevin op julie_and_steve@b...: > I've actually just joined Lynn's group in > Melbourne. They are responsible for introducing me to this new language of > 'namas' and 'rupas' and I'm afraid I am a lost cause being completely and > utterly fascinated. 26461 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:25pm Subject: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi Nori, I agree with your observation. I see the desires that you mentioned as craving/tanha, particularly in terms of "May I be like this", "May I be otherwise", "I will be like this", "I will be otherwise", or other craving-verbalizations as enumerated by the Buddha in Anguttara Nikaya IV.199 Tanha Sutta Craving http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-199.html Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi all, [snip] > I think most suffering (in our modern world) stems from having > unfulfilled dreams and desires of living a certain kind of life, > career, etc. Having a certain social life, friends, money, etc. > > How do we guard our senses against desires like these ??? > > > peace and metta, > > nori 26462 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 11:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) - Cultivative speech and posts Hi Nori, N: > Instead of questioning posts and statements > people make, it would be much more beneficial for everybody if all of the statements and posts people made were contributing. > > e.g. ... is that your opinion? ... well this is my opinion. > > > Questioning statements people make without offering new information > benefits nobody. Even if it leads one to contemplate the subject, its a waste of time compared to just offering their view. ------------------ It's hard to argue with that. However, the thought often occurs to me; "Well I said that once on dsg, [or I saw that once on dsg], and nobody corrected it so, presumably, it was right; or were people just being polite?" In other words, it is inconvenient in the long run if, for whatever reason, the group lets wrong interpretations of the Dhamma go unquestioned. According to our home page, we are: "A discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition." (end quote) If a statement is made here without being challenged, there must be an assumption that we consider it to be consistent with those ancient texts. Admittedly, where someone repeatedly makes a wrong statement, it doesn't have to be corrected every time. But if we allow readers to assume inconsistent statements are actually consistent, then we are doing them a disservice. (Just my opinion.) -------------------- N: > Also, I believe making posts on subjects that were already discussed > are good since there are many of us here who are new here. If everyone is discussing advanced subjects and there is not enough on the basics then that would not be good for newcomers and beginners. -------------------- Another very good point -- no argument there :-) Kind regards, Ken H 26463 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 0:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... -- --->Howard: > > Yes. Simple mindfulness is most of it. But that doesn't > quite fully > >describe the matter. There must be an ongoing, repeated intention > to be aware > >and not allow being swept away. This is where the vigilance seems > to come in. > >Intention, intention, and yet more intention is important in this. > ================== > "rjkjp1" Dear Howard, > A few questions: > What is simple mindfulness? > Why do you say intention is the main factor? ............ =============================== Howard: Well, in my complete post and my other posts on this topic, I've made myself about as clear as I think I can. The repeated acts of intention are preparatory and cultivational. Robert, instead of questioning me further on this matter I would love to hear your opinions on it. Even better, I would be very interested in hearing of your real-life experience with guarding the senses and its relation to what you have read on the subject. ================-.> w: "norakat147" people make, it would be much more beneficial for everybody if all of > the statements and posts people made were contributing. > Questioning statements people make without offering new information > benefits nobody. Even if it leads one to contemplate the subject, its > a waste of time compared to just offering their view. ================================================= Dear Nori and Howard, Sorry to be wasting the time of the group. Sometimes I like to be sure of the terms that are being used. For example what does mindfulness really mean in terms of the path out of samsara? We might have differing ideas about that and so I wanted Howard to explain a bit more. It is like Plato said: "If you would converse with me, please, first, define your terms." I find without these clarifications communication is limited. And so this letter might be off the point, possibly even adding to the waste. Each of us has very different accumulations and I think what one gets out of any sutta depends on what aspects of the teachings impress us most. For instance, Howard, you find that formal sitting meditation is central to the teachings. What I feel is unique in the teaching of the Buddha and the one that strikes to my heart is that on anatta, not self. Samyutta Nikaya IX (20)7 "Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves." The commentary (p708 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation) notes that this means deep teachings such as those dealing with emptiness (sunnatapatisamyutta), explaining mere phenomena devoid of a being (sattasunnata-dhammamattam eva pakasaka) And the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347) The great chapter Dhammadina: 5oo rich merchants came to see the Buddha . They asked how they should live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train themselves thus: "as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerned with the void [about anatta] from time to time we will spend our days learning them. That is how you must spend your days." And so this interest in anatta means that when I read the suttas more and more this aspect appears. The suttas and commentaries often talk about guarding the senses. And Howard you pointed out this can be done by having the intention to avoid having desire or aversion to what is sensed and even to avoid sense objects as much as possible. One ideally could stay in a forest living at the foot of a tree and concentrate on the breath and in this way limit the sense contacts. This is one way of guarding the senses. The way that interests me is, as I indicated above, influenced by my prediliction towards investigating anatta. Take the Majjhima Nikaya 138 Uddesavibhanga sutta. The Buddha said (p1074 bodhi)"Bhikkhus a bhikkhu should examine things in such a way that while he is examining them his consciousness is not distracted and scattered externally nor stuck internally.If his consciousness is not distracted and scattered externally nor stuck internally and if by not clinging he does not become agitated, then for him there is no origination of suffering or birth, ageing and death in the future." The monks asked MahaKaccana to explain this in detail. And Mahakaccana explained this with regard to the six senses and to the five khandhas. "here when a bhikkhu has seen a form with the eye,if his consciousness follows after the sign of formis tied by the fetter of gratification in the sign of the form , then his consciousness is called `distracted and scattered externally'. Let me explain by example in daily life. We see a nice car or pretty woman. Immediately there is desire (assuming we like pretty woman or nice cars - if not subsitute your favourite thing)of some degree. In fact there was simply a moment of visible object . What happened next was that minddoor processes formed up concepts rooted in lobha (desire). If it is not seen as it is then the processes rooted in lobha can continue on and on. Maybe the car is out of sight now but we are caught up in thought: "how can I get the money to buy that" A black one would be nice", maybe I could do some overtime at work", "I wonder if my girlfriend would like it"..it could last for days! Very natural that this happens but insight into the processes cuts through and shows what is really present: i.e citta and cetisaka, paramattha dhammas. This insight breaks up the 'story', the whole, into what is really there, which is only evanescent elements: "when the resolution of the compact is effected by resolution into elements (dhatus ie. paramattha dhammas), the characteristic of not-self become apparent in its true nature: Visuddhimagga xx15 Very gradually this insighting into reality becomes more and more habitual until: "perception of not-self becomes anchored (anattasanna santhathi): ..reckoned as the perception of not-self as follows, viz 'All dhammas are not self' on account of their being devoid of esssence, on account of their proceeding uncontrolled, on account of their being other, on account of their being vacant, on account of their being void and empty, becomes anchored in the heart, becomes established extremely firmly" endquote from The Udanatthakatha (translation masefield p595) Back to the sutta: Mahakaccana then explains what the Buddha meant by "agitation due to clinging" (upadaya paritassana). " Here the "uninstructed worldling" (assutava puthujjana), who regards his five aggregates as self. When his form, or feeling, or perception, or volitional formations, or consciousness undergoes change and deterioration, his mind becomes preoccupied with the change, and he becomes anxious, distressed, and concerned. Thus there is agitation due to clinging. But the instructed noble disciple does not regard the five aggregates as his self. Therefore, when the aggregates undergo change and transformation, his mind is not preoccupied with the change and he dwells free from anxiety, agitation, and concern."" http://www.abhidhamma.org/maha_kaccana.htm#ch5 To gradually wear away self view. This is the way of freedom from anxiety. If there is developing understanding of anatta then I think there is less and less concern about whether consciousness and other mental factors are deteriorating or improving, rather the interest is with what the khandhas are right now. And so the present moment becomes clearer because there is true patience with whatever is occurring. Maybe we don't like to accept that there is no one who can control. We might think we can become sotapanna if we put in much effort trying to guard against any desire or aversion. But all dhammas are conditioned and such efforts may be conditioned by self view that obscures that all dhammas are so evanescent, it might lead to the wrong path. Anguttara Nikaya Book of the tens XI (iii) 103 Wrongness From wrong view proceeds wrong thinking.....From wrong effort proceeds wrong mindfulness; from that wrong concentration. From wrong concentration proceeds wrong knowledge. From wrong knowledge proceeds wrong release...... Because this wrong view is tied up with tanha(desire) it will entangle more and more. Instead of calmly and patiently investigating the characteristic of the present moment one will always be looking for something better and this will condition wrong concentration. If it goes far enough then wrong release will finally occur and one will happily conclude they are now sotapanna. In my early years in Dhamma there was so much wrong effort. Trying to see anatta with the idea that dhammas (consciouness, feeling, sanna....) can be made to do this or that! Pure self view, conditioning wrong effort and wrong concentration. RobertK 26464 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar Hi Shakti, Hope you and your husband are having a good time in Phuket - it was really great having you on the trip with your keen iterest in Dhamma and non-stop energy for discussion as the rest of us dropped in exhaustion;-) Thank’s so much for sharing your comments here as well - I learnt more detail as I read your post too;-): --- shakti wrote: > > No trip to Burma would be complete without going to Rangoon (now Yangon) > to visit the famous Shwedagon Pagoda, where eight hairs of the Buddha > are enshrined. One sees the pagoda long before arriving at it's steps, > as the pagoda is 327 feet high and towers above most of Rangoon. The top > of the pagoda is capped with thousands of diamonds and other precious > stones, the cap stone being a 76 carat diamond. It is covered with > more than 60 tons of pure gold. The main pagoda is surrounded by 72 > smaller temples or chedis, most of them too crowned by golden pagodas. .... As we walked around, you asked me a question about the distribution of the relics after the Buddha’s parinibbana. Here is a brief account from the end of the Parinibbana Sutta: ***** http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn16a.html transl by Thanissaro bhikkhu >When this was said, Dona the brahman addressed the groups & factions, Listen, good sirs, to a word from me. Our Awakened One taught forbearance. It's not good that there should be combat over the relics of the highest one. Let's unite in concord, on friendly terms, and make eight shares. Let there be burial mounds in the various directions, many people made confident in the One with Eyes. "In that case, brahman, you yourself divide the Blessed One's bone-relics into eight equal shares." Responding, "As you say, good sirs," to the groups & factions, Dona the brahman divided the Blessed One's bone-relics into eight equal shares and then said to the groups & factions, "Good sirs, give me this urn. I will build a burial mound and hold a ceremony for the urn." They gave him the urn. Then the Moriyans of Pipphalivana heard, "The Blessed One, they say, has been totally unbound in Kusinara." So they sent an envoy to the Kusinara Mallans: "The Blessed One was a noble warrior. We, too, are noble warriors. We deserve a share of the Blessed One's bone-relics. We, too, will build a burial mound and hold a ceremony for them." "There is no [remaining] share of the Blessed One's bone-relics. They have been divided. Take the embers from here." They took the embers from there. Then King Ajatasattu Vedehiputta of Magadha built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the Blessed One's relics in Rajagaha. The Licchavis of Vesali built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the Blessed One's relics in Vesali. The Sakyans of Kapilavattu built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the Blessed One's relics in Kapilavattu. The Buliyans of Allakappa built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the Blessed One's relics in Allakappa. The Koliyans of Ramagama built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the Blessed One's relics in Ramagama. The brahman of Vettha Island built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the Blessed One's relics on Vettha Island. The Pava Mallans built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the Blessed One's relics in Pava. The Kusinara Mallans built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the Blessed One's relics in Kusinara. Dona the brahman built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the urn. The Moriyans of Pipphalivana built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the embers in Pipphalivana. Thus there were eight burial mounds for the bone-relics, a ninth for the urn, and a tenth for the embers. That is how it was in the past. > ***** > The trip was an amazing experience, it was a rich mix of visiting > pagodas or chedis, experiencing the beauty of Burma's lush landscape and > having the opportunity to discuss dhamma with Khun Sujin and other > friends. .... I’m sure we all appreciated your enthusiasm and good questions on so many different topics. .... > I feel very grateful to have had the opportunity to have had dhamma > discussions everyday with Ajahn Sujin. I especially appreciated her > kindness and marveled at her immense patience, as we asked question > after question. She was extremely generous with her time and her > willingness to share her deep understanding with us. I was amazed at > how she listened to the 'stories' that we would tell, then would cut to > the heart of the issues that we raised. ..... This was where you used the analogy of the Manjushri sword, cutting off the trails of papanca (proliferations) and cutting to the heart of the matter as you describe;-) .... >She gave us constant reminders > that 'now' can only be experienced 'now.' > > The following are a few quotes of Khun Sujin that relate to different > questions that were raised. ..... I mentioned my notes from my first trip with K.Sujin in Sri Lanka consisted of a set of brief quotes and you showed interest. They are on Zolag http://www.zolag.co.uk/ I was going to copy them here, but just checking, I see there are over a hundred! At Zolag, scroll down to ‘phrases’ and share any you like. In those days, a trip lasted several weeks and our group consisted of four! Nina wrote ‘Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka’ (which you may have picked up at the Foundation) about that trip. I like this reminder you quote about awareness: > "If not now? When?" Metta, Sarah p.s I think the dates Nina and other friends will be in Bkk are 29thJan-1stFeb and also the following weekend. It would be great if you can join us again, perhaps w/your husband? ====== 26465 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Nori, --- norakat147 wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > First, welcome back from Myanmar. Looks like you guys had a fun trip. ... Thanks, Nori. Good to be talking to you again. I always like your qus. .... > Very often you and others point out to me or remind me about Anatta > (not-self), but I must admit that these replies are not helpful to me > since I have yet to experience it. I read it in the Suttas and > everyone talks about it but it is not my truth till I experience and > understand this. For now, here "I" sit, ME, encapsulated in this > skin. My mind/cognition however... I'm not too sure about. .... I think you’re making good points and this is exactly as it is. In other words, without more development of understanding there is the illusion of ME and “I” sitting here all the time as you describe. Better that we acknowledge it and as I wrote yesterday, there are so many subtle shades of self-view and other wrong views all the time. .... >If > however, you can elucidate Anatta in any way for me, I would be > greatful. I have read the Suttas on the reasoning of - feelings, etc. > arising and passing and so therefore not-self but I don't quite > understand it. .... So we accept that there is an illusion of self at this moment, but intellectually at least, we can begin to appreciate that it is an illusion. Is the ‘self’ seen, heard, smelt, tasted, touched or thought about? It can only be thought about. In other words, it’s an idea, a concept that is construed on account of what is experienced and what is experiencing (i.e seeing, hearing and so on) through the sense doors. At a moment of right understanding and awareness, it’s clear there is only a nama or rupa such as seeing or visible object, feeling or attachment appearing. No self at all at these moments. If there is an idea of a “ME” or “SELF” ‘holding’ awareness or directing or controlling it, again it’s an idea only. Awareness, like all mental factors is conditioned to arise according to complex conditions. No self to do anything. I hope this helps. You may like to read more detail in some of the posts under ‘anatta’ and ‘anatta and control’ in U.P. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Christine also asked many qus on this topic on the trip - she may be able to add more when she returns. Metta, Sarah ====== 26466 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar2 - self-view & tapes Dear Nina, Thanks for your feedback. --- nina van gorkom wrote > I do not > understand , see below. .... S:> > She also mentioned that sakkaya ditthi was the lightest’ view. She > said > > that other views were the same, but the content was different, eg > > computers’ and things’. When there is self-view, there are bound to > be > > other wrong views. ... As I wrote it, I also made a note to myself to follow up on this next time I’m in Bkk as it’s not clear to me either. This is speculative. I understood by ‘lightest’ that it meant self-view has to be known and eradicated before other deeper views could be (but as we know they are all eradicated at the same time, though gradually worn away with each moment of satipatthana). There are bound to be ideas of other people and things while there is no understanding that what is taken for self is in fact a combination of namas and rupas or 5 khandhas or dhatus or ayatanas. I hadn’t heard the reference to ‘lightest’ before and of course, I may have even heard wrong. I don’t have all the tapes yet, but will listen out for it too. Metta, Sarah ===== 26467 From: nordwest Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:50pm Subject: The great whiner in my head Dear sangha, recently I read that mind would be a "compare" mechanism. So I tried to be aware of this function and guess what, this can be really great fun! You should try this, just do anything simple, like going for a late-evening walk in your neighborhood. And watch what your mind does, when there is a little wind it says " I'm cold." When the wind stops, then it says for example "Is it save walking in the dark alone?", or ten again thewind comes, "I'm cold." or "I'm tired." or "tomorrow will be lots of work, go home sleep." - Whatever it says, it is great fun to listen to it. I had a big laugh several times, about this stupid mind of mine...very healthy laughs. :) The mind is such a WHINER, if it would be a person we would most likely have said long ago, "Namo Buddha! Please stop the whining. Gimme a break!" But because we identify with it, thinking wrongly that we ARE this mind, we let it continue with this whining. But we all know, we are not this mind, nor this body. So we have to teach this annoying whiner in our head to already SHUT UP! Nothing is ever good enough for this mind. Even if everything is just great it for sure finds something that is faulty...is it sunny, it's too hot... is it rainy, it's too wet... is it a average day, it's to boring... is it a busy day, it's too hectic. haha! Try this observation yourself, enjoy the great WHINING, and have a laugh about your mind too. :0) Yours in the Dharma, Thomas 26468 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:59am Subject: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Dear Nina & All, There are 24 conditions which ‘cause’ namas and rupas to arise at this moment. These are elaborated in detail in the last book of the Abhidhamma, the Patthana. During our trip, K.Sujin was referring a lot to one of these conditions, or rather a sub-category of one of these conditions, namely pakatuupanissaya paccaya (decisive support condition). Nina writes a detailed and helpful introduction to the conditions which can be found at: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Pakatuupanissaya paccaya is a very broad condition and K.Sujin was saying that everything is included in it including all other conditions and even concepts. Mike was asking before what she meant when she refers so often to ‘accumulations’ and when I asked her for a Pali term, she said ‘pakatuupanissaya’. So accumulations includes everything ‘including concepts and rupas’conditioning at this moment. Who knows the accumulations of each person and how anyone will respond at any moment? By pakatuupanissaya, accumulations can be traced back over aeons and aeons. Anything can be a condition as a result. For example, strong emotions may be a condition for awareness for one person or lobha(attachment) for another. All we can do is to encourage others to understand the teachings and ‘to understand one’s own world’. We cannot know the others. While we speculate about perceived conceit, attachment or irritation in others, the accumulated thinking or speculation at this moment can be known. There was some discussion before between Nina and I about concepts as pakatuupanissaya paccaya and what this meant when we talk about the weather or a friend, for example as condition. K.Sujin explained that the concepts represent a detailed account of realities. This reminds me of the descriptions in the Satipatthana Sutta commentary which explain what is meant by ‘going forward’, ‘eating’ and so on. Whatever we read represents realities. By ‘weather’ is meant the heat or cold or other experiences felt as a result of this condition. We use ‘weather’ as a kind of shorthand for an otherwise long detailed account of realities. By accumulations as we sat under the air-conditioning, some felt cold and others felt hot. Kamma can only bring its results, ie the kusala and akusala vipaka to experience the desirable or undesirable objects by pakatuupanissaya paccaya, formed up over those aeons. All ‘roots’ (i.e lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha), and all other cetasikas are included in this condition too. As I mentioned to Nori, there was also brief mention of sappaya sampajanna (clear comprehension of suitability)for the arising of satipatthana in this context. Again, as I understand, when we read about the ‘good friend’ or ‘suitable place’, for example, it is the sound or visible object and so on represented by ‘friend’ or ‘place’ at that moment which by accumulations conditions satipatthana. As K.Sujin stressed, there is ‘no need to think about sappaya sampajanna for an arahant’ as all kilesa (defilements) have been eradicated. As I write, I realise there is more to explore here. Given the complexity of accumulations we cannot say whether it is kusala or akusala vipaka at any particular moment. No one can judge and rupas arise and fall away so fast, even though each rupa must have the characteristic of ‘pleasant’ or ‘unpleasant’. ‘Who knows?’ K.Sujin would respond when scenarios were described. Just as Kom wrote: >The text says the only surefire way to know if its is kusala or akusala vipaka is to know the difference between the two types of cittas! Of course, this is incredibly subtle (just imagine, an unskilled wordling lready has a hard-time distinguishing between lobha and kusala - which share the same set of feelings, and the differences between these two are gross comparatively), and only the most differentiating wisdom can tell the differences.< We can generalise and say it’s akusala vipaka to hear angry words, but cannot say more. ‘No one can judge’. Again we can only generalise to see that as a rule kusala vipaka is followed by attachment and akusala vipaka by aversion. ‘That’s all!’ There are different accumulations from past lifetimes and aeons by pakatupanissaya paccaya so that the same air will feel hot to one and cold to another or the same food will taste sweet to one person and salty for another. What is ‘sappaya (suitable)’ will be different. Rupas conditioned by kusala cittas, such as the rupas which make up the Buddha’s body must be intrinsically pleasant, but it depends on the cittas as to what is seen at any moment. We can only generalise about seeing the Buddha or conversely seeing dung. In truth there’s no self, no pig and only thinking. It’s not developing understanding when we speculate or try to pinpoint as I was reminded. Jon gave the example of the story in a Thai paper a long time ago about two boys on a railway line who were playing and didn’t hear the train or whistles or angry voices and were killed. K.Sujin reminded us that there’s no need to think of two boys or people or anything. Just moments of kusala and akusala vipaka, followed by kusala and akusala cittas. Discussions on this general topic continued by various people over several days, perhaps giving an indication of the complexity (or of the accumulated moha (ignorance) on our part!). Thanks to RobM and RobertK for their help in prompting so much discussion;-) Finally, RobM discussed more details before on various conditions very helpfully (27th July), but K.Sujin stressed we cannot refer to kamma as ‘natural decisive support condition for the vipaka it creates’. They are completely different conditions, but kamma cannot bring its result without pakatuupanissaya paccaya. In other words, there are many other factors at work which affect whether a result arises. On the other hand, pakatuupanissaya paccaya doesn’t need kamma to condition a reality. This is important for understanding how lobha(attachment) now, for example, may condition lobha in the future but not necessarily bring about a result by kamma. If all lobha brought about results by kamma condition, these would not be distinct conditions as K.Sujin explained to me. She also stressed the importance of understanding the 3 rounds of kamma vatta, vipaka vattha and kilesa vatta again. Lobha is always included in kilesa vatta but not in kamma vatta unless it is kamma patha. Comments welcome! Metta, Sarah ===== 26469 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:35am Subject: corny pics;) Hi Nori, --- norakat147 wrote: > > Still working on downloading the picture ... been busy, also I don't > seem to like any of my pics, will try to find one thats not so > corny ;) .... Some of us don't get a say as Chris would add - Sukin clicks and pronto, there we are for the world to see;) Any corny pic will be great Nori, and anyone else too. I'm sure James will be happy to give any assistance if required.... Thx in advance. Metta, Sarah ====== 26470 From: Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi, Robert - Thank you for the detailed reply. In a message dated 10/30/03 4:03:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes in part: > > The suttas and commentaries often talk about guarding the senses. > And Howard you pointed out this can be done by having the intention > to avoid having desire or aversion to what is sensed and even to > avoid sense objects as much as possible. One ideally could stay in a > forest living at the foot of a tree and concentrate on the breath > and in this way limit the sense contacts. > This is one way of guarding the senses. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't recommend attempting to avoid sense objects. If you will recall, I likened that to the three monkeys: Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil," with ears, eyes, and mouths covered by their hands! When sitting for samatha bhavana, of course, and even at times for formal vipassana bhavana, it is useful to reduce the complexity of input, but that is different from viewing guarding the senses as closing the senses. Guarding the senses consists of an internal vigilance to not let the mind be swept away by experience. --------------------------------------------------------- > > The way that interests me is, as I indicated above, influenced by my > prediliction towards investigating anatta. > > Take the Majjhima Nikaya 138 Uddesavibhanga sutta. > The Buddha said (p1074 bodhi)"Bhikkhus a bhikkhu should examine > things in such a way that while he is examining them his > consciousness is not distracted and scattered externally nor stuck > internally.If his consciousness is not distracted and scattered > externally nor stuck internally and if by not clinging he does not > become agitated, then for him there is no origination of suffering > or birth, ageing and death in the future." > > The monks asked MahaKaccana to explain this in detail. And > Mahakaccana explained this with regard to the six senses and to the > five khandhas. "here when a bhikkhu has seen a form with the eye,if > his consciousness follows after the sign of form is tied by the > fetter of gratification in the sign of the form , then his > consciousness is called `distracted and scattered externally'. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. This is good. --------------------------------------------------- > > Let me explain by example in daily life. We see a nice car or > pretty woman. > Immediately there is desire (assuming we like pretty woman or nice > cars - if not subsitute your favourite thing)of some degree. In fact > there was simply a moment of visible object . What happened next was > that minddoor processes formed up concepts rooted in lobha (desire). > If it is not seen as it is then the processes rooted in lobha can > continue on and on. Maybe the car is out of sight now but we are > caught up in thought: "how can I get the money to buy > that" A black one would be nice", maybe I could do some overtime at > work", "I wonder if my girlfriend would like it"..it could last for > days! Very natural that this happens but insight into the processes > cuts through and shows what is really present: i.e citta and > cetisaka, paramattha dhammas. > > This insight breaks up the 'story', the whole, into what is really > there, > which is only evanescent elements: > "when the > resolution of the compact is effected by resolution into elements > (dhatus ie. paramattha dhammas), the characteristic of not-self > become apparent in its true > nature: Visuddhimagga xx15 > > Very gradually this insighting into reality becomes more and more > habitual until: > > "perception of not-self becomes anchored (anattasanna > santhathi): ..reckoned as the perception of not-self as follows, > viz 'All dhammas are not self' on account of their being devoid of > esssence, on account of their proceeding uncontrolled, on account of > their being other, on account of their being vacant, on account of > their being void and empty, becomes anchored in the heart, becomes > established extremely firmly" endquote from The Udanatthakatha > (translation masefield p595) > =============================== Yes, I'm happy with this, Robert. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26471 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:13am Subject: Natural Decisive Support Condition Hi Sarah, Nina, Rob K and all, The Abhidhammaatthasangaha groups the 24 conditions as follows: - Mind as a condition for mind (6 modes - proximity, etc.) - Mind as a condition for mind/matter (5 modes) 1. Root condition (ethics - defines what is good / bad) 2. Kamma condition 2a. Conascent: cetana coordinating other cetasikas 2b. Asynchronous (temporal gap): conditioning state is past wholesome / unwholesome volition, conditioned state is resultant cittas with their cetasikas and kamma-produced rupa (both at rebirth linking and during course of existence) 3. Vipaka condition (makes vipaka cittas / cetasikas passive, not active) 4. Jhana condition 5. Path condition - Mind as a condition for matter (1 mode - postnascence) - Matter as a condition for mind (1 mode - prenascence) - Mind/matter as a condition for mind/matter (9 modes) - Concepts and mind/matter as a condition for mind (2 modes) 1. Object condition 2. Decisive Support Condition 2a. Object decisive support condition 2b. Proximity decisive support condition 2c. Natural decisive support condition / pakatupanissaya (aka accumulations) The conditioning states for natural decisive support (i.e. that which causes natural decisive support to condition something) are: - Strong past 89 cittas - Strong past 52 cetasikas - Strong past 28 rupas - Some strong past concepts The conditioned states for natural decisive support (i.e. what gets conditioned by natural decisive support) are: - Later 89 cittas with their 52 cetasikas I view the citta process as fundamental to the operation of the mind. In the past, I had always viewed natural decisive support as playing a role only in the determining or mind door adverting citta. My logic was that this is the point at which the citta-stream diverts to: - liking (leading to lobha-mula javana) - disliking (leading to dosa-mula javana) - ignoring (leading to moha-mula javana) - seeing things as they truly are / wise attention (leading to kusala) The diversion had to be conditioned by something (wasn't kamma as the determining / mind door adverting citta are kiriya). I had assumed that it was accumulations (past strong concepts, nama, rupa) and the mode of conditioning was natural decisive support. Here are my questions / problems / concerns: 1. How can natural decisive support be a conditioning factor for all 89 cittas; I can understand how it conditions the one citta that plays the role of determining / mind door adverting, but how can natural decisive support condition all of the other cittas as well? 2. Based on my understanding, natural decisive support is the keystone for morality and development; if this is true, why is it not central to the Suttas (even under the name of accumulations)? Metta, Rob M :-) 26472 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:29am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > In a message dated 10/30/03 4:03:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, > rjkjp1@y... writes in part: > > The suttas and commentaries often talk about guarding the senses. > > And Howard you pointed out this can be done by having the intention > > to avoid having desire or aversion to what is sensed and even to > > avoid sense objects as much as possible. One ideally could stay in a > > forest living at the foot of a tree and concentrate on the breath > > and in this way limit the sense contacts. > > This is one way of guarding the senses. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I don't recommend attempting to avoid sense objects. If you will > recall, I likened that to the three monkeys: Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no > evil," with ears, eyes, and mouths covered by their hands! > When sitting for samatha bhavana, of course, and even at times for > formal vipassana bhavana, it is useful to reduce the complexity of input, but > that is different from viewing guarding the senses as closing the senses. > Guarding the senses consists of an internal vigilance to not let the mind be swept > away by experience. > --------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, Thanks for clarifying this, I sometimes skim a post and miss a key point. I think one of the things that is easy to confuse in Dhamma is the difference between samatha and vipassana. And because so many monks in the old days were skilled in both, the suttas often address and elucidate the path of the samathayanika who uses mundane jhana as the basis for insight. Thus he must live in seclusion and become skilled in all levels of jhana. However, there is another lesser but still valid path of the one who develops insight alone. And this one may or may not live in seclusion. He may or may not also develop some degree of samatha. So when we read the suttas we need to realize that some of them are addressed to monks with extraordinary levels of parami like Mahakassapa. And I think we are trying to do something beyond our capacity if we try to equal their way. RobertK 26473 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi Robert and Howard, I believe that it is not unreasonable to say there are people who choose to develop both tranquillity and insight, there are people who choose to develop only insight, and there are people choose to develop only tranquillity. And I believe that how to put the Buddha's teaching into practice is a personal decision that can not be forced upon. Robert, you mentioned that there is another lesser but still valid path of the one who develops insight alone. I would ask, a valid path to what? What does this path lead to? I am not sure what you mean by "we are trying to do something beyond our capacity if we try to equal their way". Do you mean that if we are to develop tranquillity, we are trying to do something beyond our capacity? If so, where did you get that idea? I don't see how developing tranquillity means tryng to do something beyond our capacity. I don't see how this connection can be inferred from what the Buddha taught. Again, I believe that how to put the Buddha's teaching into practice is a personal choice and that personal choice cannot be forced upon. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: [snip] > Dear Howard, [snip] 26474 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part II Dear Robert, thank you for bringing this up, you are correct. I looked in Pali proper names. I shall send the correction. I have trouble with the tenses. In Pali Pr Names (p. 960) it is said that he was reborn as young Sakka, and would tread the Path of anagamis. Was he already an anagami, or still a sotapanna? I think a sotapanna. Please look at my correction. I compared Pali and Thai. The rebirth in Akanittha is a future. I tried to avoid pitfalls. Sometimes you can read it in different ways. Many thanks, Nina. op 29-10-2003 19:25 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: >>> The ³Sumangalavilåsinií², Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the > Buddha², >> Commentary to the ³Questions of Sakka² (II, no 21), gives an > additional >> explanation about the rebirth of Sakka, the King of Devas: >> >> ³It is said that when he departed from his existence as Sakka, he > was going >> upwards in the stream of life to the plane of akaniììha, because > he had >> attained to the stage of anågåmí. First he was born in the Aviha > plane [5] >> and finally he was born as brahma of the akanittha plane.² >> > ============== > I thought that sakka would still be sakka because of the longlife in > the deva world and wouldn't be born in other worlds till the future. > with respect > RobertK 26475 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:15am Subject: FW: [dsg] Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part II, correction Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part II The ³Sumangalavilåsinií², Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², Commentary to the ³Questions of Sakka² (II, no 21), gives an additional explanation about the rebirth of Sakka, the King of Devas: ³It is said that after departing from this existence as Sakka, he will go upwards in the stream of life to the plane of akaniììha, because of his attainment to the stage of anågåmí. After his birth in the Aviha plane and so on he will finally be born as a brahma of the akanittha plane.² [5] Footnote 5: "Going upwards in the stream of life" means, treading the Path of anagami. Aviha is the lowest class of the ³Pure Abodes². 26476 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re: guarding the senses Dear James, op 29-10-2003 21:18 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Thank you for the additional sutta quotes about guarding the senses; > they are beautiful. I believe that this is one aspect of the > teaching that many of us take for granted, assume we know what it > means, but we don't really. How can you know what it means to do > something when you can't really do it, or can do it only rarely? I > still don't think I completely know what it means because I am not > proficient at it. N: Neither am I!! It is good to reflect more on it, indeed we take it too much fro granted. If there is no seeing or hearing how can we think about this terrible neighbour? Thus, the sutta refers to the senses and the mind. You used to think formerly: < I see "guarding the senses" and I imagine that one is supposed to somehow carefully control what objects come in contact with the senses, from the environment>. Here is a sutta about someone in the Buddha's time who taught that it would be better not to see or hear. Middle Length Sayings no 152, Discourse on the Development of the Sense organs. We read that Uttara said to the Buddha that Parasariya teaches the development of the sense organs thus: <"As to this, good Gotama, one should not see material shapes with the eye, one should not hear sounds with the ear.." "This being so, Uttara, then according to what Parasariya the brahman says a blind man must have his sense-organ developed, a deaf man must have his sense-organ developed. For a blind man does not see material shape with the eye, nor does a deaf man hear sound with the ear."...> The Buddha then explained to Ananda: The Buddha then explains by way of similes how fast the stopping is of what is liked and disliked. Like and dislike are very fast, before we know it is too late. But then comprehending is stressed in this sutta. The sutta deals with understanding that conditions equanimity. Also the factor understanding is very fast. But it is understanding that has been developed. J: (I wonder, how can you do this if you are often > times overwhelmed by ESP input? I don't believe the Buddha spoke to > this.) N: what is ESP input ? O, I saw that you spoke about extra sensory perceptions. But I am not familiar with this term. Some intuition? I hope Howard will add a drop more. Nina. 26477 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Dear Howard, op 30-10-2003 04:29 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > When we sense, > due to heightened energy and watchfulness that a memory of a loss, for > example, is about to arise, we can note that it is just an unpleasant memory, > and > let it go rather than ruminate, and cogitate, and replay it again and again > with > constantly increasing detail and resulting distress. N: Yes this happens very often, you describe it rightly. But even such tendency (most unwelcome) to replay it has conditions, it is fit to be object of mindfulness. It is just one of our accumulated inclinations, and it is beneficial to realize this. Nina. 26478 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:15am Subject: Tiika Vis 24 Relevant text Vis. 24: 24. This same meaning is shown in the Abhidhamma by the following analysis: (a) 'Knowledge about suffering is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the origin of suffering is the "discrimination of law". [Knowledge about the cessation of suffering is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the way leading to the cessation of suffering is the "discrimination of law]... (b) 'Knowledge about cause is the "discrimination of law". .... etc. Pali: ayameva hi attho abhidhamme -- ``dukkhe ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. dukkhasamudaye ~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. hetumhi ~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa.... Tiika 24: 24. ayameva hi atthoti yvaaya.m atthadhammaana.m pa~ncadhaa vibhajanavasena attho vutto, As to the expression, the same meaning (is shown in the Abhidhamma), the meaning which is stated by way of the fivefold classification of the things which are ³meaning² (or fruit), ayameva abhidhamme vibhajitvaa dassitoti sambandho. after having classified this according to the Abhidhamma, the connection is thus shown. *** English: As to the expression, the same meaning (is shown in the Abhidhamma), the meaning which is stated by way of the fivefold classification of the things which are ³meaning² (or fruit), after having classified this according to the Abhidhamma, the connection is thus shown. **** Nina. 26479 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:15am Subject: myanmar Dear Sarah, I have been reflecting on this: N: Even understanding of heat and then taking it for self. Very subtle, hard to notice this. Mostly it may be unnoticed and that gets me. Nina. 26480 From: Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi, Victor - I agree with what you say in the following. In particular, whether or not the jhanas are beyond one's reach is certainly an individual matter. I have had a taste of jhanas, and that with relatively little samatha bhavana (just a few months of twice/day 20-minute sittings with a mantra). I resumed the mantra meditation recently, and I do find that I can "get into it" rather quickly - so I intend to continue with it. Some folks may not do very well with focussed meditation, but better with formal "insight meditation" combining cultivation of calm and insight, and yet others may do best with simply staying mindful at "regular times". There may even be a few who have the accumulations to succeed at such ongoing mindfulness practice without any further support (except for the calm induced by observing sila), and they are certainly in a wonderful position. I am not one of these. I need the support of samatha meditation, and, fortunately, I seem to have a knack for it. With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/30/03 12:38:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Robert and Howard, > > I believe that it is not unreasonable to say there are people who > choose to develop both tranquillity and insight, there are people > who choose to develop only insight, and there are people choose to > develop only tranquillity. And I believe that how to put the > Buddha's teaching into practice is a personal decision that can not > be forced upon. > > Robert, you mentioned that there is another lesser but still valid > path of the one who develops insight alone. I would ask, a valid > path to what? What does this path lead to? > > I am not sure what you mean by "we are trying to do something beyond > our capacity if we try to equal their way". Do you mean that if we > are to develop tranquillity, we are trying to do something beyond > our capacity? If so, where did you get that idea? > > I don't see how developing tranquillity means tryng to do something > beyond our capacity. I don't see how this connection can be > inferred from what the Buddha taught. > > Again, I believe that how to put the Buddha's teaching into practice > is a personal choice and that personal choice cannot be forced upon. > > Peace, > Victor > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26481 From: Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:29am Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/30/03 1:16:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > >When we sense, > >due to heightened energy and watchfulness that a memory of a loss, for > >example, is about to arise, we can note that it is just an unpleasant > memory, > >and > >let it go rather than ruminate, and cogitate, and replay it again and again > >with > >constantly increasing detail and resulting distress. > N: Yes this happens very often, you describe it rightly. But even such > tendency (most unwelcome) to replay it has conditions, it is fit to be > object of mindfulness. It is just one of our accumulated inclinations, and > it is beneficial to realize this. > ======================== I concur completely. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26482 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 0:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: re: guarding the senses --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James, > N: what is ESP input ? O, I saw that you spoke about extra sensory > perceptions. But I am not familiar with this term. Some intuition? > I hope Howard will add a drop more. > Nina. Hi Nina, You have never heard or read the term "Extra Sensory Perception", ESP? That is very surprising. Yes, it contains intuition, but can involve many other `extra' perceptions as well; they are perceptions in addition to sight, hearing, taste, touch, and smell. The Buddha spoke of it in some suttas. Don't worry about it anyway, my question was rhetorical. Metta, James 26483 From: Larry Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 4:23pm Subject: Vism. XIV 32, 33 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 32. (v) How is it [understanding] developed? Now the things classed as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are the "soil" of this understanding, and the [first] two purifications, namely, purification of virtue and purification of consciousness, are its "roots", while the five purifications, namely, purification of view, purification by overcoming doubt, purification by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path, purification by knowledge and vision of the way, and purification by knowledge and vision, are the "trunk". Consequently, one who is perfecting these should first fortify his knowledge by learning and questioning about these things that are the 'soil' after he has perfected the two purifications that are the 'roots', then he can develop the five purifications that are the 'trunk'. This is in brief. The detail is as follows. [B. DESCRIPTION OF THE FIVE AGGREGATES] 33. When it was said above 'the things classed as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are the 'soil', the "aggregates" here are the five aggregates, that is to say, the materiality aggregate, the feeling aggregate, the perception aggregate, the formations aggregate, and the consciousness aggregate. 26484 From: Larry Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 4:45pm Subject: Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi all, FYI, "purification of consciousness" is development of right concentration as outlined in the second section of the Visuddhimagga. The five purifications (view, overcoming doubt, knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path, knowledge and vision of the way, and knowledge and vision) are analyzed in this section of Vism. on 'understanding' (pa~n~na). So the idea is to first "perfect" virtue and concentration, then learn and question about the aggregates etc., and finally develop the five purifications that are concerned with understanding the aggregates etc. We will work on all three levels. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 32. (v) How is it [understanding] developed? Now the things classed > as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent > origination, etc., are the "soil" of this understanding, and the > [first] two purifications, namely, purification of virtue and > purification of consciousness, are its "roots", while the five > purifications, namely, purification of view, purification by > overcoming doubt, purification by knowledge and vision of what is the > path and what is not the path, purification by knowledge and vision > of the way, and purification by knowledge and vision, are the "trunk". > Consequently, one who is perfecting these should first fortify his > knowledge by learning and questioning about these things that are > the 'soil' after he has perfected the two purifications that are > the 'roots', then he can develop the five purifications that are > the 'trunk'. This is in brief. The detail is as follows. > 26485 From: Lynn Cohen Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 6:44pm Subject: guarding the senses Hi everyone, I have been very interested in the discussion on guarding the senses. Just this past week or more there has been regular arising of a past memory which is extremely painful (strong feeling within the body) I am able(sometimes) to remain mindfully with this memory until it disapates. The question is, if I am mindful enough to sense its arising ( although they mostly sneak up on me! ) would it not be more beneficial to cut it off at the knees so to speak rather than allow it each time to run its full course, or would that be a type of rejection which would give rise to further painful memory { of the same flavour} later on? I am very grateful for the chance to participate with this group. With Metta,Lynn 26486 From: Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] guarding the senses Hi, Lynn - In a message dated 10/30/03 9:50:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, lynn.cohen@b... writes: > Hi everyone, I have been very interested in the discussion on guarding the > senses. Just this past week or more there has been regular arising of a past > memory which is extremely painful (strong feeling within the body) I am > able(sometimes) to remain mindfully with this memory until it disapates. The > question is, if I am mindful enough to sense its arising ( although they mostly > sneak up on me! ) would it not be more beneficial to cut it off at the knees > so to speak rather than allow it each time to run its full course, or would > that be a type of rejection which would give rise to further painful memory { > of the same flavour} later on? > I am very grateful for the chance to participate with this group. With > Metta,Lynn ========================== I'm no expert on this at all, so you should take my opinion with a very small grain of salt. I think you should probably experiment with it. I think that to the extent that you can face the memory without your painful reaction being overwhelming, you might try to permit the experiencing of it with as much equanimity as you can muster, and then let it go. By repeatedly encountering it with increasing equanimity it seems to me that its hold on you may be lessened. But if your reaction to it is very strong, then I would say you need to tread carefully, sometimes seeing the memory coming and turning the mind away - not giving it entry, but other times allowing a slight "taste" of it. I think this is a subtle internal process that you have to work carefully and gently with, sometimes stepping back,and sometimes moving forward, but always dealing with it knowingly and intentionally. Good luck with this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26487 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:53pm Subject: Re: guarding the senses Hi Lynn, I used to have heartache/pain in the chest that came with the emotional pain in my childhood and younger years. This is how I see it: I would say that because the issue is not completely resolved, when the memory comes back, it comes with painful feeling. To resolve the issue associated with that memory, what happened in the past needs to be understood with the principle of kamma/action.* Memory comes back from time to time. If the issue is resolved, it is just the memory that comes back without the painful feeling. Peace, Victor * Anguttara Nikaya V.57 Upajjhatthana Sutta Subjects for Contemplation http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-057.html "'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'... "[This is a fact that] one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained... "Now, based on what line of reasoning should one often reflect... that 'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'? There are beings who conduct themselves in a bad way in body... in speech... and in mind. But when they often reflect on that fact, that bad conduct in body, speech, and mind will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker... "A disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one who is owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator; who -- whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. To the extent that there are beings -- past and future, passing away and re-arising -- all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and live dependent on their actions. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed." 26488 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi Howard, I think that is great! Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - [snip] 26489 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Dear Nori, Craving is the second noble Truth, the origin of dukkha. You get what you want but it will change, or you will lose it, or you become older and cannot enjoy things anymore, too sick. This is more obvious suffering. The deepest suffering is the arisinf and falling at each moment of the five khandhas, the arising: The khandhas arise at birth. and have to continue in the cycle of birth and death. As Rob K quotes from the Majjhima Nikaya 138 Uddesavibhanga sutta: Mahakaccana then explains what the Buddha meant by "agitation due to clinging" (upadaya paritassana). <" Here the "uninstructed worldling" (assutava puthujjana), who regards his five aggregates as self. When his form, or feeling, or perception, or volitional formations, or consciousness undergoes change and deterioration, his mind becomes preoccupied with the change, and he becomes anxious, distressed, and concerned. Thus there is agitation due to clinging. But the instructed noble disciple does not regard the five aggregates as his self. Therefore, when the aggregates undergo change and transformation, his mind is not preoccupied with the change and he dwells free from anxiety, agitation, and concern.""> op 30-10-2003 04:01 schreef norakat147 op nori_public@a...: > Like if I'm walking down the street, see a beautiful woman, car, > house or pastries in the window and all of a sudden I'm suffering > because I desire or crave the object. Or I feel a beautiful woman, > car, house or taste pastries in the window and all of a sudden I'm > suffering because I cling to the object. > > I think most suffering (in our modern world) stems from having > unfulfilled dreams and desires of living a certain kind of life, > career, etc. Having a certain social life, friends, money, etc. > > How do we guard our senses against desires like these ??? 26490 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Dear Sarah, Thank you for your report. I find this one, see below, very important. I think about the long discussions here about concept and reality, but this goes to the heart of the matter. Nina. op 30-10-2003 12:59 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > There was some discussion before between Nina and I about concepts as > pakatuupanissaya paccaya and what this meant when we talk about the > weather or a friend, for example as condition. K.Sujin explained that the > concepts represent a detailed account of realities. This reminds me of the > descriptions in the Satipatthana Sutta commentary which explain what is > meant by going forward’, eating’ and so on. Whatever we read represents > realities. By weather’ is meant the heat or cold or other experiences > felt as a result of this condition. We use weather’ as a kind of > shorthand for an otherwise long detailed account of realities. 26491 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Hi Dharam, I hope you are reading this post, if you aren't still subscribed, your friend as before, will forward it to you. But of course I must ask you not to take anything personally, nor consider it as hopeless any dogmatism that I might show. This time, you should give some explanation about any particular belief that you think leads to `liberation' and the reasons why you think they do, instead of me having to make a general comment of what they might be. You probably think that I am fixed in my views and because the Abhidhamma being a self-contained system, that this may be what makes it hard for me to accept other possible paths. This may be so, but even to decide what else to look into, it must first appeal intellectually. And so far, nothing you or anyone else has said has caused this intellectual appeal. In fact just the other day when Larry gave a link in response to Rob M's query about Vedanta, I decided to read a bit, because I admire Larry's intelligence, so there must be something to it. But no, Shankara didn't impress me at all. As I said to you before, I see some limitation with deductive reasoning, i.e. if the premise is wrong, then the conclusion would also be wrong. And I think most of us have a high tendency to cling to conclusions especially those that have come about by `sound' reasoning. And even though, Abhidhamma impresses upon me as being precise and straight to the point, there is still much room for lobha to influence one's understanding. This is why I think it is absolutely important that we constantly engage in discussions, especially with those who are more experienced; this is the only way to straighten one's views. And what do wise friends constantly remind us about? The realities which arise "now", the characteristics of these realities which we read about, can be known directly. So far I have got only vague impressions of some realities, and I rely all the time on `thinking' about them. Sometimes, I do feel a bit disappointed with myself that there is no `right effort', and at those times wrong view and lobha quickly come in and there is an attempt to `catch' realities. But this is also quickly recognized now, and seen as `conditioned'. That the understanding is still very weak, and that more pariyatti is needed. However, at the same time, I also get the impression that this `intellectual understanding' is none other but `panna' cetasika, the same when fully developed, understands the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Also I see `detachment' as being a common factor accompanying all levels of panna. So Dharam, you mention that none of us have "directly" experienced the ultimate goal; that this should give us reason to doubt about the exclusivity of Satipatthana as being the only way that leads to final liberation. So far, according to my understanding, I see no reason to believe this to be the case. You will have to convince me! Do you agree that the worthy goal is `wisdom accompanied by detachment'? I see this as possibly happening only in this moment, not in some projected goal, a consequence of holding on to some belief and performing some ritualistic practice. But perhaps you have other ideas as to why one should seek Truth or Liberation!? Now I would like to comment on part of your post. > It is the same sky. We can try to partition it and call it our own > special, particular bright area. Others may do the same, calling it > their own. That bright area is now our new reality. > > Therefore, how dare any outsider contemplating that same sky, try to > suggest a coherence, or even that dirty word - 'unity'? What a silly > notion? What a dangerous one? What a conceited one? You mentioned in your post to Robert, that you think that none of us is in the position to judge the validity or not of other paths. You suggested also that even the Buddha could not truly assess the value of other paths, since he would be limited in terms of having `tasted' just `his' particular way. When I first joined this group, someone asked K. Sujin about Buddha's ability with regard to worldly feats. "Would he be able to master the piano by just looking at someone play?" someone asked. K. Sujin answered, "Why not?" It took me a few minutes to comprehend this, but ultimately I had to agree. It may sound to you like superstition, an irrational confidence in one's teacher's wisdom and ability, one that is almost like a theist's belief in the omniscience of God. But it wasn't so, I did comprehend I think reasonably, that the Buddha was so clear minded and had absolutely no obstacles, that he could understand and do perfectly what he put his mind on to. It is easy to believe that he would be able to compose multilevel fugues that would absolutely baffle and put to shame even Bach himself. But even when it came to `physical' ability, I think there would be no hindrances and he would play the piano such that Liszt and Rachmaninoff would both feel shy. ;-) But all this is trivial, what the Buddha accomplished in terms of knowledge and understanding was so great that we cannot imagine what it could be like. We assess another's ability in terms of what *we* know and possibly can know. I too do that all the time! But I believe that Buddha was omniscient. And I think he knew in and out, all other possible views (perhaps this is what is talked about in the Brahmajala Sutta? I have not read it.). This I believe was a result in part, of his perfecting the Paramis. Through all his existence as the Bodhisattva, he had experience thoroughly all view points. …….Speculating a bit here. So Dharam, it is not about `insider / outsider', I don't think I am that petty. ;-) Like I said before, it *has* to appeal intellectually. And btw, I have read and been impressed by other religions and philosophies in the past, and I truly believe that there is so much inherent tendency to `wrong view', such that under conditions I would revert back to being impressed by them. But today, they don't and though this is based only on intellectual understanding, it would in the minimum, require sound reasoning to cause me to believe your proposition. So please give me one. When I mentioned in my last post about `unity with the All' being `ultimate conceit', I hope you don't understand this to be in the sense that it is commonly used, namely, excessive pride. I understand that people of other religions do just that to reduce this same pride and sense of `self', and I think in this sense it is quite effective. However, I was referring to mana as we know it, in the sense of `Identification'. Hope you will continue to take part in the discussions here. Look forward to your response. Metta, Sukin. 26492 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:27am Subject: Hello! Dear Kom, I hope you would still remember me. I am Janice! It is great talking to you again. I have a few questions about Buddhism. 1:Was the Kamma a person when it was still alive? 2:Is he really related to the Buddhism? 3:Does the Buiddha talk to you when you pray to him? Metta, Janice Chung (12 years old) 26493 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:30am Subject: Buddhism Dear James, I hope you are keeping well. I have not been typing to you as I went to camp and I had a holiday so I did not go to any classes. Well, I have a few questions. 1: About how many times do Buddhists pray a day? (I mean average) 2:Does every Buddhist have a prayer book with them or do they have to remember it? 3: Are there any bad spirits in Buddhism? That's all! Metta, Janice 26494 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:35am Subject: Also Buddhism James: Hey there! Thanks for your last letter. Like you said, I have trouble going on with my teachers, so can you give me some advice? Thanks very much. Philip Chui (I wrote lots of other questions about Buddhism to you, but the letter got lost when I sent it two weeks ago). 26495 From: Julie, Steve and Kevin Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 3:48am Subject: RE: [dsg] re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. Hi Nina, When I get a chance, I'll ask Lynn if she wouldn't mind filling you in about the group. Lynn is one of the main stalwarts of the group and would be much more able to answer. Have a fantastic weekend. See You Julie Do tell us more about Lynn's group. If Steve has remarks about BDL, everybody here will welcome his input. 26496 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Natural Decisive Support Condition Hi RobM & All, I greatly appreciate the extra detail you add and Your points and questions are always very helpful for me to consider further. I often raise points from your posts when I’m in Bkk too. Really hope you can join us for a day or so in January and anyone else as well. Also, on the bus in Myanmar, we all appreciated your post on planes of existence and the ones on compassion and the brahma viharas. On our last morning in Bkk, we discussed more about compassion with Christine & Azita over breakfast and how easy it is to avoid facting up to or knowing the present reality which may so easily be a ‘near enemy’. .... -- robmoult wrote: > 2c. Natural decisive support condition / pakatupanissaya > (aka accumulations) > > The conditioning states for natural decisive support (i.e. that > which causes natural decisive support to condition something) are: > - Strong past 89 cittas > - Strong past 52 cetasikas > - Strong past 28 rupas > - Some strong past concepts > > The conditioned states for natural decisive support (i.e. what gets > conditioned by natural decisive support) are: > - Later 89 cittas with their 52 cetasikas .... Some people may wonder how it helps to understand more about this condition. I think it helps to understand how any state or even rupa or concept in the past or now can act as condition for the citta and cetasikas at this moment. Nothing is by chance, but these states are conditioned in complex ways and knowing this can help us have more confidence and understanding of anatta. ..... > I view the citta process as fundamental to the operation of the > mind. In the past, I had always viewed natural decisive support as > playing a role only in the determining or mind door adverting citta. > My logic was that this is the point at which the citta-stream > diverts to: > - liking (leading to lobha-mula javana) > - disliking (leading to dosa-mula javana) > - ignoring (leading to moha-mula javana) > - seeing things as they truly are / wise attention (leading to > kusala) > > The diversion had to be conditioned by something (wasn't kamma as > the determining / mind door adverting citta are kiriya). I had > assumed that it was accumulations (past strong concepts, nama, rupa) > and the mode of conditioning was natural decisive support. ..... This is true, but also for all other cittas and cetasikas too. Even for vipaka cittas. .... > Here are my questions / problems / concerns: > 1. How can natural decisive support be a conditioning factor for all > 89 cittas; I can understand how it conditions the one citta that > plays the role of determining / mind door adverting, but how can > natural decisive support condition all of the other cittas as well? .... Take seeing consciousnes which of course is vipaka citta (result of kamma). Why does kamma bring its result at a particular time and manner? What determines whether kusala or akusala kamma will bring a result whilst sitting under the air-conditioner or eating the same food? Without natural decisive support condition assisting and conditioning there couldn’t be any result. Who can determine at any moment what result will be experienced or what cittas will follow? Even if attachment follows in the javana process, what determines the strength or intensity of the mental states and so on? The rupas experienced, the concepts thought about, the mind-states experienced from aeon to aeon can all determine the present cittas and cetasikas as I understand. ..... > 2. Based on my understanding, natural decisive support is the > keystone for morality and development; if this is true, why is it > not central to the Suttas (even under the name of accumulations)? .... Good Qu. I think it is central to the Suttas, but addressed in different terminology. For example, what would be the purpose of reading about ‘guarding the senses’ or developing other wholesome states if they were not ‘accumulated’ and developed. When we read about the khandhas or ayatanas, we’re reading about anatta and the conditioned nature of realities. Indeed the second stage of insight is understanding about this. I think this is the point about reading the Teachings as a description of conditioned realities rather than as a set of rules to follow with an idea of ‘self’ that can do anything. It just depends how the suttas are read and interpreted. I hope others like Nina, Robert or especially **Mike** will add comments about this qu as I’m a bit tired now after teaching and beginning to ramble. I was also planning to write out a few notes about balancing faculties etc, following up on one of your posts, but it’ll have to wait. Look forward to any further comments of yours as usual. Metta, Sarah ====== 26497 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] guarding the senses Hi Lynn, I liked Victor’s post with reminders and quote about reflecting on kamma. --- Lynn Cohen wrote: > Hi everyone, I have been very interested in the discussion on guarding > the senses. Just this past week or more there has been regular arising > of a past memory which is extremely painful (strong feeling within the > body) I am able(sometimes) to remain mindfully with this memory until it > disapates. The question is, if I am mindful enough to sense its arising > ( although they mostly sneak up on me! ) would it not be more beneficial > to cut it off at the knees so to speak rather than allow it each time to > run its full course, or would that be a type of rejection which would > give rise to further painful memory { of the same flavour} later on? .... I discussed a very similar topic with a friend in Bkk (not a member here) who had had a very difficult experience. We discussed how we tend to be caught up with our own experiences and be unaware that everyone has painful experiences of one kind or other, if not in this life, then certainly in the last or next. What seems so difficult and disturbing at the time, may be a mere ‘blip’ over a course of many lifetimes. Sometimes we may have the idea that by thinking and thinking, some issues can be resolved, but this is never so. Painful memories and experiences can only be ‘resolved’ by developing awareness and understanding of the present reality whether it be thinking, unpleasant feeling, seeing or hearing. We can never know or understand all the complex conditions which led to certain ‘events’ or realities in the past (or the present for that matter). Better to just let them go (but of course, without any idea of ‘self’ that can ‘let go’), rather than cling to past memories, even the unpleasant ones. As we’ve discussed so many times, the past has gone, the future not yet come - only the present namas and rupas can be known. ..... > I am very grateful for the chance to participate with this group. ...... Very glad you’ve joined us too and for your helpful question. Metta, Sarah ===== 26498 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... --- dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Robert and Howard, > > I believe that it is not unreasonable to say there are people who > choose to develop both tranquillity and insight, there are people > who choose to develop only insight, and there are people choose to > develop only tranquillity. And I believe that how to put the > Buddha's teaching into practice is a personal decision that can not > be forced upon. =========== Dear Victor, Yes, I certainly agree with this. However it is more complex than simply choosing to be one type or the other. =========== > > Robert, you mentioned that there is another lesser but still valid > path of the one who develops insight alone. I would ask, a valid > path to what? What does this path lead to? > > I am not sure what you mean by "we are trying to do something beyond > our capacity if we try to equal their way". Do you mean that if we > are to develop tranquillity, we are trying to do something beyond > our capacity? If so, where did you get that idea? > > ===================== In the Netti-pakarana (587) "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava vipassanam upadassati. Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties. Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We at this time- so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya and we need many details. Only the very wise ones with great accumulations could master jhana and use it as the base for insight. Nevertheless all types of kusala - of which samatha is one of the highest- should be developed as all kusala assists insight. RobertK From Ledi sayadaw http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/individu.htm Four Classes of Individuals who encounter the Sasana (According to the Buddha as stated in the 'Puggala Pannatti' and the 'Anguttara Nikaya') ((1) A Ugghatitannu : an individual who encounters a Buddha in person, and who is capable of attaining the Holy Paths and the Holy Fruits through the mere hearing of a short concise discourse. (2) A Vipancitannu: an individual who encounters a Buddha in person, but who is capable of attaining the Paths and the Fruits only when the short discourse is expounded to him at some length. At the present day, only the following Neyya and Padaparama classes of individuals remain. 26499 From: shakti Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Photos of Myanmar Dear Sukin, Thanks for posting the photos. For some reason I can't seem to access them from the computers at the cyber cafes that I have tried. I'll be back home in approx. one week and look forward to seeing them then. Thanks for taking the time to post them. With mett, Shakti Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: Hi All, We have all just arrived back from Myanmar. It was a great trip. Happy to be able to access dsg again. I have uploaded some photos from our trip. Hope you will all enjoy viewing them. Metta, Sukin. 26500 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:01am Subject: Re: guarding the senses --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lynn Cohen wrote: > Hi everyone, I have been very interested in the discussion on guarding the senses. Just this past week or more there has been regular arising of a past memory which is extremely painful (strong feeling within the body) I am able(sometimes) to remain mindfully with this memory until it disapates. The question is, if I am mindful enough to sense its arising ( although they mostly sneak up on me! ) would it not be more beneficial to cut it off at the knees so to speak rather than allow it each time to run its full course, or would that be a type of rejection which would give rise to further painful memory { of the same flavour} later on? > I am very grateful for the chance to participate with this group. With Metta,Lynn Dear Lynn, I think what Victor said was good. I quoted the Majjhima 138 yesterday: " Here the "uninstructed worldling" (assutava puthujjana), who regards his five aggregates as self. When his form, or feeling, or perception, or volitional formations, or consciousness undergoes change and deterioration, his mind becomes preoccupied with the change, and he becomes anxious, distressed, and concerned. Thus there is agitation due to clinging. But the instructed noble disciple does not regard the five aggregates as his self. Therefore, when the aggregates undergo change and transformation, his mind is not preoccupied with the change and he dwells free from anxiety, agitation, and concern."" I think memories, or the feelings that go with them have no hold over us when they are seen as not self. And that will also improve the confidence in Dhamma. Nothing is too extreme or too hard when it is not taken as mine or me. RobertK RobertK 26501 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi Robert, Thank you for your reply. It seems to me that you got the idea from the commentary, not from what the Buddha taught as recorded in the Pali Canon. Let me refer to this discourse in which the Buddha clearly talked about what one should do regarding attaining internal tranquillity of awareness and insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 Samadhi Sutta Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-094.html No where in this discourse, or in any other discourse that I've come across indicates that the Buddha taught insight and tranquillity discriminatively based on one's faculties such that he taught insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: [snip] 26502 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Dear Larry, when we read this we may believe that a certain order is meant. First purification of morality, then purification of consciousness (samatha), then purification of view. There cannot be any purification when one clings to the wrong view of self. We should look at morality as described by the Visuddhimagga: Ch I, 42, under 17 b, the guarding of the sensedoors. It refers to the M. no 27" he is possessed of this ariyan control of the senseorgans. Ariyan: not of the ordinary person. The highest way is through vipassana. Then the Vis. speaks about proper resort of the bhikkhu, proper resort as anchoring, Ch I, 51: the four foundations of mindfulness. In the same ch on morality the Vis. describes all levels of morality, including jhanas and insight: I, 140, he abandons the perception of permanence through the contemplation of impermanence. Thus, we should not have an idea of this first, then that. There are many levels of morality and concentration. No question of any purity (visuddhi) without satipatthana, without vipassana. Nina. op 31-10-2003 01:45 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > FYI, "purification of consciousness" is development of right > concentration as outlined in the second section of the Visuddhimagga. > The five purifications (view, overcoming doubt, knowledge and vision > of what is the path and what is not the path, knowledge and vision of > the way, and knowledge and vision) are analyzed in this section of > Vism. on 'understanding' (pa~n~na). So the idea is to first "perfect" > virtue and concentration, then learn and question about the > aggregates etc., and finally develop the five purifications that are > concerned with understanding the aggregates etc. We will work on all > three levels. 26503 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] guarding the senses, memories Dear Lynn, I like the sutta that Victor quoted very much. <"A disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one who is owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator; who -- whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. To the extent that there are beings -- past and future, passing away and re-arising -- all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and live dependent on their actions. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed."> It reminds us of the suffering, dukkha, of being in the cycle. But the Path leads out of the cycle. In this sutta it is not only kamma that should be daily reflected upon, also old age, disease, death, separation from what is dear. The fact that such painful memories arise is due to accumulated inclinations, it is conditioned and beyond control. It is conditioned by past experiences. The more we try to push it away, the more importance we attach to it, and then the more we become entangled. It is only one moment and then gone. We thinkabout it on and on but also such moments pass. We think that these moments last, but there is seeing and hearing again. When there is seeing or hearing there cannot be thinking at the same time. If we reflect more on the momentary characteristic of our experiences it can help us to attach less importance to them, be it only on the intellectual level. As Robert said in his post: end quote. The development of understanding conditions patience with whatever occurs. Remember: it is just conditioned. This verse in the Visuddhimagga I find such a consolation: VIII, 39, explaining that The world full of people, full of worries about the stories we think of, it dissolves with the consciousness which thinks. Worries of the past have gone, now there are new worries, worry about your worry, and that goes also. Nina. op 31-10-2003 03:44 schreef Lynn Cohen op lynn.cohen@b...: Just this past week or more there has been regular arising of a past > memory which is extremely painful (strong feeling within the body) I am > able(sometimes) to remain mindfully with this memory until it disapates. The > question is, if I am mindful enough to sense its arising ( although they > mostly sneak up on me! ) would it not be more beneficial to cut it off at the > knees so to speak rather than allow it each time to run its full course, or > would that be a type of rejection which would give rise to further painful > memory { of the same flavour} later on? 26504 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:06am Subject: more on natural language, Tiika Vis. Dear Larry and friends, We read about Magadha being the natural language. I think it is good to repost Sarah's conversation with A. Sujin about this difficult subject. End quote. This is for me a key sentence:< For those with this knowledge, the word conditions understanding.> Thus, they hear the Pali word for feeling, vedana, and they have a very deep understanding of what feeling is, its anattaness, its being conditioned by which conditions, its place in the Dependent origination, etc. They know Pali already. Not the learning of a language, but understanding should be emphasized, the whole chapter is about understanding. Nina. 26505 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:06am Subject: Tiika Vis. 25 Relevant text Vis: Vis. 25. "Knowledge about enunciation of language dealing with meaning and law" (par.21): there is the language that is individual essence, the usage that has no exceptions, and deals with that meaning and that law. Any knowledge falling within the category concerned with the enunciation of that, with the speaking, with the utterance of that, concerned with the root-speech of all beings, the Magadhan language that is individual essence, in other words, the language of law (dhamma), [any knowledge that] as soon as it hears it spoken, pronounced, uttered, knows, 'This is the individual-essence language; this is not the individual-essence language'--[such knowledge] is "discrimination of language". [442] One who has reached the discrimination of language knows, on hearing the words 'phasso, vedanaa'. etc., that that is the individual-essence language, and on hearing 'phassaa, vedano', etc., he knows that that is not the individual-essence language. ---------------------- 25. tatradhammaniruttaabhilaape ~naa.nanti tasmi.m atthe ca dhamme ca yaa sabhaavanirutti abyabhicaarii vohaaro. tadabhilaape tassa bhaasane udiira.ne ta.m bhaasita.m lapita.m udiirita.m sutvaava aya.m sabhaavanirutti, aya.m na sabhaavaniruttiiti eva.m tassaa dhammaniruttisa~n~nitaaya sabhaavaniruttiyaa maagadhikaaya sabbasattaana.m muulabhaasaaya pabhedagata.m ~naa.na.m niruttipa.tisambhidaa. niruttipa.tisambhidaappatto hi phasso vedanaati evamaadivacana.m sutvaava aya.m sabhaavaniruttiiti jaanaati. phassaa vedanoti evamaadika.m pana aya.m na sabhaavaniruttiiti. ***** Tiika 25: words: avipariita: unequivocal byabhicaara : exception abhilaapa: expression. vohaara: common usage pa.tiniyata: fixed sambandha (m): connection pakaara (m): method Tiika 25 (first part ): 25. ``dhammaniruttaabhilaape''ti ettha dhamma-saddo sabhaavavaacakoti katvaa aaha``sabhaavaniruttii''ti, avipariitaniruttiiti attho. As to the expression, enunciation of language dealing with dhamma, here .... he said: the natural language, language that is unequivocal, is the meaning. tenaaha ``abyabhicaarii vohaaro''ti, tassa tassa atthassa bodhane pa.tiniyatasambandho saddavohaaroti attho. Therefore he said, ³common usage, which is normal, without exceptions², concerning the understanding of such and such meaning, there is a fixed connection, thus, a common usage of words, is the meaning. tadabhilaapeti tassa sabhaavaniruttisa~n~nitassa abyabhicaarivohaarassa abhilaapane. As to the expression, (any knowledge falling within the category) concerned with the enunciation of that, this means, concerned with the enunciation of that so called natural language, of that normal, common speech. saa panaaya.m sabhaavanirutti maagadhabhaasaa. atthato naamapa~n~nattiiti aacariyaa. This natural language is the Magadha Language. As to the meaning of this, the teachers say that it is a name. phassoti ca sabhaavanirutti, phassa.m phassaati na sabhaavaniruttiiti dassitovaayamattho. The word phasso, contact, is natural language, but phassa.m and phassaa are not, this is the meaning that is shown. na ca avacana.m eva.mpakaara.m atthi. And in this manner there is not the wrong word. tasmaa vacanabhuutaaya eva tassaa sabhaavaniruttiyaa abhilaape uccaara.neti attho da.t.thabbo. Therefore, the meaning of ³utterance² should be seen as the enunciation of this natural language by the constitution of speech. ta.m sabhaavaniruttisadda.m aaramma.na.m katvaa paccavekkhantassa tasmi.m sabhaavaniruttaabhilaape pabhedagata.m ~naa.na.m niruttipa.tisambhidaa, When one is reviewing that expression of natural language by making the sound of it the object, the knowledge that falls under the category of the utterance of natural language is the discrimination of language. ``evamaya.m niruttipa.tisambhidaa saddaaramma.naa naama jaataa, na pa~n~nattiaaramma.naa''ti (vibha0 a.t.tha0 718) Thus it is said, ³this discrimination of language comes to have sounds as its object, not a concept.² ca a.t.thakathaaya.m vuttattaa niruttisaddaaramma.naaya sotavi~n~naa.naviithiyaa parato manodvaare niruttipa.tisambhidaa pavattatiiti vadanti. And the sayings of the commentaries state that the discrimination of language occurs with the sound of language as object in the ear-door process and afterwards in the mind-door process. ``niruttipa.tisambhidaa paccuppannaaramma.naa''ti (vibha0 749) ca vacanasadda.m gahetvaa pacchaa jaanana.m sandhaaya vuttanti. As to the expression (in the Book of Analysis): ³The discrimination of language has a present object², it is said in this connection that after having grasped the sound of speech there is understanding. ****** English: As to the expression, enunciation of language dealing with dhamma, here .... he said: the natural language, language that is unequivocal, is the meaning. Therefore he said, ³common usage, which is normal, without exceptions², concerning the understanding of such and such meaning, there is a fixed connection, thus, a common usage of words, is the meaning. As to the expression, (any knowledge falling within the category) concerned with the enunciation of that, this means, concerned with the enunciation of that so called natural language, of that normal, common speech. This natural language is the Magadha Language. As to the meaning of this, the teachers say that it is a name. The word phasso, contact, is natural language, but and are not, this is the meaning that is shown. And in this manner there is not the wrong word. Therefore, the meaning of ³utterance² should be seen as the enunciation of this natural language by the constitution of speech. When one is reviewing that expression of natural language by making the sound of it the object, the knowledge that falls under the category of the utterance of natural language is the discrimination of language. Thus it is said, ³this discrimination of language comes to have sounds as its object, not a concept.² And the sayings of the commentaries state that the discrimination of language occurs with the sound of language as object in the ear-door process and afterwards in the mind-door process. As to the expression (in the Book of Analysis): ³The discrimination of language has a present object², it is said in this connection that after having grasped the sound of speech there is understanding. ****** (last part of section 25 untranslated) Nina. 26506 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:29am Subject: Re: Also Buddhism --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > James: > > Hey there! Thanks for your last letter. Like you said, > I have trouble going on with my teachers, so can you > give me some advice? Thanks very much. > > Philip Chui > > (I wrote lots of other questions about Buddhism to > you, but the letter got lost when I sent it two weeks ago). Hi Star Kid Philip!, Thanks for writing again. I hope you are doing well. Sorry that your other letter to me got lost, maybe you can send it again later. So, you want some advice about how to get along better with your teachers. Philip, I sense that you are a very gifted and precocious child. I also sense that you are very socially mature for your age. In other words, you have a good understanding of people and the reasons behind why they do things, more advanced than your fellow students. Unfortunately, being this way also makes you very sensitive to criticism, criticism in any form. For example, if your teacher tells you that you should write a little neater, you start to feel that maybe she doesn't like you as much as before; if she doesn't agree with an answer that you give in class, you start to feel bad about yourself like you have really failed. Sometimes these feelings make you angry and sometimes they make you sad. I sense that you really want to be liked and appreciated by everyone, but you think that things don't usually go that way. So, to make up for this you act out in class, disrupt the lesson as much as possible, don't listen to the teacher, say unacceptable things so that you get attention from your friends, sometimes tell your friends that the teacher is stupid, etc. You do anything you can do so that it seems like you don't care what the teacher thinks about you, when deep down inside that is what you care about the most. Unfortunately, your bad behavior will cause the teacher to criticize you more which just makes you act out more. It will continue like this until you do something to stop it. The good thing is that you see this as a problem now and you do want to stop it. Philip, to get along better with your teachers you are going to have to try to develop two things that the Buddha taught: awareness and compassion. You need to be aware that you are very sensitive to criticism and to notice how it makes you feel when you are criticized, especially by your teachers. When you feel these strong reactions to criticism you need to remind yourself that they are too strong, and notice them until they go away. Don't blame the teacher or blame yourself for the feeling, just notice the feeling until it goes away. As time goes by, you will be able to accept criticism easier without such strong feelings. The second thing you need to develop is compassion, compassion for yourself and for your teachers. Philip, try not to be so hard on yourself or on your teachers. Your teachers really do want to help and teach you, that is why they became teachers, but you need to let them teach and help you. To do their job they have to tell you when you do something wrong; remember that it isn't personal to you. Finally, accept yourself for yourself and allow yourself to make mistakes without feeling bad about them. Nobody is perfect and you don't have to expect yourself to be perfect. I hope this helps you Philip. No one told me these things about you, I can just sense them. If I am wrong about you, okay; but I know for sure that I am not wrong about how you need to be nice to your teachers. Take care and study hard in school. Metta, James 26507 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:59am Subject: Re: Buddhism --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear James, > I hope you are keeping well. I have not been > typing to you as I went to camp and I had a holiday so > I did not go to any classes. Well, I have a few > questions. > > 1: About how many times do Buddhists pray a day? > (I mean average) > 2:Does every Buddhist have a prayer book with > them or do they have to remember it? > 3: Are there any bad spirits in Buddhism? > That's all! > Metta, > Janice >Hi Star Kid Janice! Thank you for the well wishes, I am keeping well. I hope you are keeping well also. It is okay that you haven't written to me for a while. I hope that you enjoyed camp and your holiday. Janice, it is hard for me to answer your questions about praying and prayer books because there are a lot of different kinds of Buddhists in the world. Some pray and have prayer books and some don't. I am not the type of Buddhist who prays and has a prayer book so I don't know a whole lot of details about those Buddhists who do. I couldn't tell you how many times they pray and if they memorize prayers. However, I do know that Buddhist monks, in every type of Buddhism I can think of, do have certain prayers, called chants, and they do have them memorized. At my temple they did them twice a day, in the morning and in the evening, and they lasted for half an hour. They were in another language, Pali, which the monks had to learn in special schools for monks. When I was at the temple during those times I would also chant with the monks (they had books I could follow) and I would do that for the entire half hour, on my knees…it was very painful! ;-) Yes, there are bad spirits in Buddhism. Before the Buddha was enlightened, and when he would stay in the woods alone at night, he would become terrified of every little sound he would hear. But he learned to overcome his fear by observing it until it went away. He also told his monks to not to attempt to meditate in any place that was haunted. After he was enlightened, one bad spirit named Mara would come to visit him and his monks. Buddhists don't believe in souls, like Christians, but they do believe in non-material entities, some of them bad, which can move from one dimension to another. But they can't hurt you physically, they can just scare you if you let them. Know them as just silly spirits and they will go away. Hope this answers your questions. Take care and study hard in school. Metta, James 26508 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Nori --- norakat147 wrote: > Hi James, ... > I agree with you on that, but like you have said later in your post > the gross manifestations are experienced very often throughout the > day; these, I think you will agree, should be recognized by > continuous awareness upon the body throughout the day. This I think > is very important to emphasize especially for those starting out on > Satipatthana who have so many gross manifestations, they cannot > even > begin to concentrate on the more subtle ones, or the mechanism in > itself during sitting meditation. As a fellow beginner when it comes to satipatthana, and I like your frank approach and I agree that there is so much that goes on that is not the object of awareness. However, as it has been explained to me, the immediate goal is not *continuous* awareness or anything like it, but *any* awareness as long as it is true (correct) awareness. For this we need to know in some detail what awareness is, what it's object can be, what brings about its arising and how it can be known or recongnised if it arises. Jon 26509 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:58pm Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Nori --- norakat147 wrote: > Hi all, ... > I don't understand why here and in the Suttas, they speak as though > much of our suffering takes place when objects enter our awareness > through the sense doors (and then clinging to them)? > > Like if I'm walking down the street, see a beautiful woman, car, > house or pastries in the window and all of a sudden I'm suffering > because I desire or crave the object. Or I feel a beautiful woman, > car, house or taste pastries in the window and all of a sudden I'm > suffering because I cling to the object. > > I think most suffering (in our modern world) stems from having > unfulfilled dreams and desires of living a certain kind of life, > career, etc. Having a certain social life, friends, money, etc. > > How do we guard our senses against desires like these ??? A good question. But first, we should understand that *all* dhammas are suffering in the ultimate sense, since this term 'suffering' refers not only to the fact that our wishes cannot be realised but also to the fundamental nature of all dhammas and of existence as we know it. Thus it is not just the 'desirable objects' and our 'sense desires' that are the 'culprits' here. These sense desires (attachments) are deeply ingrained in us (mostly they are latent and not apparent) and cannot be 'dealt with' by awareness at the beginning level. We are going to have to learn to live with them for some time yet! However, the immediate task remains the development of awareness as you identified in your earlier post. Jon 26510 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Dear Victor, I wouldn't like to comment on this sutta as I don't have the commentary to it. What we agree on is that there are differences in accumulations of beings. I am content that the commentaries are right in their explanations of the different capacity of beings, and that insight is what should be stressed at these times. If one has right understanding of what samatha entails then if that is developed too, then wonderful. RobertK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Thank you for your reply. It seems to me that you got the idea from > the commentary, not from what the Buddha taught as recorded in the > Pali Canon. > > Let me refer to this discourse in which the Buddha clearly talked > about what one should do regarding attaining internal tranquillity > of awareness and insight into phenomena through heightened > discernment. > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 > Samadhi Sutta > Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-094.html > > No where in this discourse, or in any other discourse that I've come > across indicates that the Buddha taught insight and tranquillity > discriminatively based on one's faculties such that he taught > insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties. > > Your comments are appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor 26511 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Photos of Myanmar dear sukin, thanks forthe photos of Myanmar, they are great. Currently awaiting plane for Australia. The northern trip was good. More on that later, sorry missed you at breakfast at Marriot with Chris and Betty, conditions rule OK. Hope all goes well, and thank you again for being a kalayanamita. Patience [have learnt a little more about patience since my trip], courage and good cheer, Azita. ps hello Shakti -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > Dear Sukin, > > Thanks for posting the photos. > > 26512 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi Robert, Thank you for your reply. I don't think I have been discussing with you whether there are differences in accumulations of beings. So I don't think it is true to say that what we agree on is that there are differences in accumulations of beings. Regarding what the Buddha taught in Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 Samadhi Sutta Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-094.html if you have any doubt about the Buddha's teaching in the discourse, or if there is anything about what the Buddha said in the discourse that you don't understand or agree with, we can discuss it further. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Victor, [snip] 26513 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Photos of Myanmar Hi Azita and Shakti, I am glad you appreciate the photos, though I would have prefered to retouch them in a photo editing program first. Thankyou for your company during the trip, and Shakti, I loved your summary. :-) And like Sarah, I was quite inspired by your enthusiasm for and understanding of K. Sujin's words. Please do take a more active part on the list, I am quite certain that you will make positive contribution. Look forward to seeing both of you and everyone else again in the future. BTW, I am sorry to report that the Keang Krajan trip has been cancelled. :-(( But we will be having discussions at the foundation anyway, and Jon, Sarah, Nina and Lodevijk will be here. So hope you can make it. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > dear sukin, > > thanks forthe photos of Myanmar, they are great. > > Currently awaiting plane for Australia. The northern trip was > good. More on that later, sorry missed you at breakfast at Marriot > with Chris and Betty, conditions rule OK. > > Hope all goes well, and thank you again for being a kalayanamita. > > Patience [have learnt a little more about patience since my > trip], courage and good cheer, > > Azita. > > ps hello Shakti > > > -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti > wrote: > > Dear Sukin, > > > > Thanks for posting the photos. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > 26514 From: Lynn Cohen Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. Hi Nina, I am Lynn from the abhidhamma group of which Julie is a member. We started off just running meditation evenings after our teacher ( a monk) went back to Sri Lanka. He had given us some instruction on Abhidhamma. After we found your teachings on line we were so enthusiastic we decided to keep going! We eventually opened the class to new members( of which Julie is one) At the moment we are studying Abhidhamma in Daily Life. We meet every Tuesday evening for study and discussion.With Metta, Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. > Dear Julie, > Do tell us more about Lynn's group. If Steve has remarks about BDL, > everybody here will welcome his input. > Nina. > op 29-10-2003 09:03 schreef Julie, Steve and Kevin op > julie_and_steve@b...: > > > I've actually just joined Lynn's group in > > Melbourne. They are responsible for introducing me to this new language of > > 'namas' and 'rupas' and I'm afraid I am a lost cause being completely and > > utterly fascinated. > 26515 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:57pm Subject: Luck?...Kamma? Dear James, I'm still thinking about the words "luck" and "kamma".I mean why do people think four-leaf clovers are lucky? Did the Buddha think four-leaf clovers were lucky? I was wondering, did you read my letter on the 11th of October, because I didn't see any reply . But it doesn't matter if you're busy. Metta, Sandy. 26516 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 1:17am Subject: Re: According to the Buddha, there isn't such thing as luck! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thankyou for the reply. > So if the Buddha does not believe in luck, did the > Buddha do things that are good and not bad? > Why do people have to do good things to want good > things to happen to themselves? Is this one of the > teachings from the Buddha? > > Yes, I did know that King Tut is actually a boy > king! Did you take any photos of his treasures? > And what treasures did he have? > > Metta, > Sandy Hi Star Kid Sandy! Sorry I didn't reply to this letter earlier. I think I read it and intended to answer it and then it got buried in some other posts and it slipped my mind. I think that someone else in this group, a man named Michael, wrote to me some questions about the pyramids and I lost that post also. I don't have a fast Internet connection here in Cairo so I can't go through pages and pages of posts when I lose track…unless I am told exactly where to go. I hope that anyone will forgive me if I haven't replied to his/her post. Okay, now to answer your questions: Yes, the Buddha only did things that were good; he didn't do things that were bad. This can't be said about most religious leaders, many of them sometimes do bad things, and so it is quite significant that for forty years the Buddha never had a weak or selfish moment. People have to do good things to get good results, that is the law of karma. Yes, this is something that the Buddha taught. But it really isn't as complicated as it sounds, the Buddha made it easy to understand. He taught that each person should do at least five things to have a happy life and good karma: 1. Don't lie; 2. Don't Steal; 3. Don't kill; 4. Don't drink alcohol or take drugs; 5. Don't commit adultery. Sounds pretty simple doesn't it? Well, these five things are what most people are not able to follow. The world would be a perfect place if everyone followed these five rules. I didn't take any photos of King Tut because I had a new digital camera with me and I didn't know how to turn off the flash! Hehehe They don't allow flash photography in the museum. I may go back again soon, it is getting cooler outside (and the museum is predominately not air conditioned, ugh!), and take some photos. Now I know how to turn off the flash! ;-). He had all kinds of treasures: gold and jewel necklaces, g&j rings, g&j waist wraps, gold finger and toe coverings, gold shoes, etc. Too many things to list. His sarcophagus was also gold and jewel encrusted. Egypt used to be a very rich land, now it is very poor. Just goes to show how things change. Take care and study hard in school. Metta, James 26517 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 1:25am Subject: Re: Luck?...Kamma? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > I'm still thinking about the words "luck" and > "kamma".I mean why do people think four-leaf clovers > are lucky? > Did the Buddha think four-leaf clovers were lucky? > I was wondering, did you read my letter on the 11th of > October, because I didn't see any reply . But it > doesn't matter if you're busy. > > Metta, Sandy. Hi Star Kid Sandy! I replied to your other letter, so now I will reply to this one. I think that people believe that four-leaf clovers are lucky because they are rare. It takes some looking around to find one (though with genetic engineering I believe that they have figured out how to grow them by the hundreds...cheaters! ;-). No, the Buddha didn't think that four-leaf clovers where lucky. Actually, I doubt that he even saw a four-leaf clover because he lived in India and they don't grow there. They only grow is wet climates like Ireland and Scotland (and other wet parts of the world); India is predominately dry for most of the year and then gets a lot of rain once a year. But either way, he didn't believe that any sort of object could be lucky. Take care. Metta, James 26518 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: ...An act of consciousness is a knowing of an object via an activated sense door. .Neither the knowing, nor the known, nor the sense-door activation occur other than as aspects of an act of consciousness. But the act of consciousness, itself, is an event, an occurrence, arising only in dependence on its aspects of knowing, known, and sensory doorway, and in dependence on the coming together of earlier conditions, including sankhara, and, before that, avijja. So it is completely a fleeting, conditioned event, dependent on other equally empty phenomena. ... A moment of seeing is an act of consciousness which is the knowing of a visible object via the eye door. There is no knowing of the entire act of seeing at that time, for that would involve a double object. But after the moment of seeing, there could follow an awareness of that just-passed moment of seeing. BTW, Jon, I'll ask you also: Do you find this discussion helping move you towards enlightenment? Or is it just a kind of psychological theorizing we are engaging in? (I think the latter!) ----------------------------------------------------- Jon: You ask whether I think discussion about moments of consciousness can be helpful in developing the path. I believe the answer is clearly Yes. On my reading of the teachings, a proper intellectual grasp of awareness and insight, of the conditions for their development, and the phenomena that can be their object (and also what cannot be their object) is a necessary prerequisite for awareness and understanding at a more direct level to arise. This cannot be gained without reading, listening, inquiry, discussion and reflection, all done repeatedly. There is frequent mention in the suttas of the importance of meeting the right friend, hearing the teachings, listening to one's teacher, considering what has been heard, etc. These are all references to acquiring understanding at the intellectual level. Without this it's too easy to simply follow one's own idea about the way things are, and this could be an obstacle to the development of the path. I notice you mention a number of times in this and your previous post an 'act of consciousness', and you give as an example 'a moment of seeing ... which is the knowing of a visible object via the eye door'. You describe the consciousness and object of that moment as 'inseparable', and you say this act of consciousness/act of seeing can be the object of awareness (I hope I have understood you correctly). According to my reading of the teachings, there is no fundamental phenomenon of 'act of seeing' and, accordingly, since it is the fundamental phenomena that are the object of awareness, there could never be awareness of such a thing. Awareness could have as object either the seeing consciousness or the visible-object, but not the composite of 'act of seeing'. In terms of the tipitaka and ancient commentaries (as I read them), 'act of seeing' would be a concept, i.e., not something having its own characteristic, like the seeing consciousness and visible-object that are the fundamental phenomena of that moment and are potentially capable of being objects of awareness. I think that to regard a concept as having a characteristic of its own, as being on a par with the fundamental phenomena that arise at that moment, can fairly be described as a form of reification, but you will no doubt disagree with this characterisation ;-)). I hope I have not misunderstood your reference to 'act of seeing/act of consciousness'. My apologies if I have -- is it something taken from the texts? Jon 26519 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowledge about conditions Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > [Jon:] > As to conditioning, there are many conditions applying at a given > 'dhamma' at a given moment, and not all of these concern the > relationship between the moment of consciousness and its object. It > helps to know of the other kinds of conditions at play also ;-)). > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Helps for what? ;-)) Jon: Helps to give a better picture of the conditioned nature of the present moment and the fundamental phenomena of which that moment is comprised. In general terms, a better understanding of the conditioned nature to things helps to attenuate the idea of self. In the particular example of the 'act of seeing' discussed earlier, we learn that in the case of the seeing consciousness and the visible-object each of these phenomena is at that moment conditioned by (multiple) factors other than the other phenomenon. These other conditioning factors would include, for example, in the case of the seeing consciousness, kamma and in the case of the visible-object, temperature, and so many others also. Knowing this, we are less likely to think in terms of any coming together to form an 'act of seeing', a composite entity the component aspects of which are inseparable. If the individual phenomena are themselves simply conditioned phenomena they cannot 'form' into something. Jon 26520 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 6:23am Subject: Karuna (compassion) for comment Hi All, Karuna arises when one perceives helplessness in those overwhelmed by suffering. When karuna arises, the mind cannot bear others' suffering and wants to remove that suffering. Karuna is the opposite of cruelty. Most people are insensitive to the suffering around them as their main focus is on themselves. This self-centredness makes the heart stiff. A stiff heart inhibits the practice that leads to positive results. Karuna takes the paralyzing heaviness away from the heart and strengthens us to be better able to face suffering when it befalls us. The motives of loving-kindness and compassion are different. When we visit a sick person, we may offer them flowers and wish them well; these are moments of loving-kindness (metta - treating others as friends). When we notice their suffering, moments of compassion (karuna - wishing to allay their suffering) may arise. Compassion is supported by the other three divine abodes: - Loving-kindness guards compassion against selecting and falling into partiality or aversion against the excluded side. - Sympathetic joy stops compassion from being overwhelmed by the sight of suffering; it relieves the tension of mind and keeps compassion away from melancholic brooding without purpose. Sympathetic joy develops compassion into active sympathy. - Equanimity guards compassion from being caught up in uncontrolled emotion and thereby guides compassion's focus. Aversion is the "near enemy" of compassion; it displaces compassion through stealth. When we visit a sick person we may have moments of compassion where we wish that the person's suffering be reduced. The next moment, we may be thinking of the person's sickness with aversion or fear. The following moment, we may be thinking about aversion about the injustice of the situation. Feelings of injustice leading to aversion can arise when we feel that we are not in control of a situation. When the unwholesome thoughts rooted in aversion arise, they pushed aside the wholesome thought of compassion. The way to differentiate between thoughts of compassion and thoughts rooted in aversion is to examine the accompanying feeling. Thoughts rooted in aversion will be accompanied by unpleasant mental feeling. Thoughts of compassion are accompanied by either pleasant or neutral mental feeling. When thoughts of compassion are translated into action, we act to reduce another's suffering; perhaps we give a medicine to a sick person or adjust their pillow to make them more comfortable. There is almost always something that one can do for another person, even if it is simply "being there" for them. These actions are done with a pleasant or neutral feeling. The compassion of the wise man does not render him a victim of suffering. His thoughts, words and deeds are full of pity. But his heart does not waver; unchanged it remains, serene and calm. How else would he be able to help? Out of compassion, the Buddha often visited the sick and encouraged monks to follow his example to attend to both the physical and mental needs of the sick. The Buddha encouraged monks to instruct, rouse, gladden and satisfy the sick with Dhamma-talk. When householders give a monk a gift, no matter whether it is "mean or choice", the monk should accept it out of compassion, in order to help the householders to accumulate wholesomeness. Modern society focuses on the external, so it is natural to feel compassion toward one who is physically sick or destitute. One who understands the Dhamma focuses on the internal; they feel compassion toward all beings as all beings are bound to saµsara and subject to the first noble truth (dukkha). We should develop the skill of compassion before trying to realize the first noble truth; otherwise, we may be overwhelmed. Compassion means having our hearts engaged, not overwhelmed or broken. The Visuddhimagga explains how one can arouse compassion toward a person even though that person may be happy. This is done by imagining a criminal being led to execution. As this criminal is paraded through the streets, people feel sorry for the criminal and offer him good food as he passes by. The criminal may be momentarily happy enjoying the good food, but the people in the street feel compassion as they know his fate. We can consider that, with each day passing, we are all one day closer to our death. Though they may be momentarily happy, evil-doers are destined for an unfortunate rebirth and deserve our compassion. Lost in delusion, people jump from one state of suffering to another, not knowing the real cause and not knowing how to escape. This insight into the general law of suffering supports a foundation of compassion. Understanding kamma and vipaka can condition compassion when we are treated unjustly. When we consider that the other person will receive the results of his own deeds, compassion can arise instead of anger. When somebody speaks harshly to us, we can consider with compassion the unpleasant feelings which caused them to react so negatively and we can also consider the future negative impact on them of their current negative feelings. Karuna has the quality of delaying one's happiness. For example, at the time of the Dipankara Buddha, Sumedha the Hermit realized that if he were to become a monk that he would become an Arahant in that life. Sumedha the Hermit also realized that his spiritual faculties (faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom) were very strong. Out of compassion for mankind, Sumedha the Hermit decided not to become an Arahant but rather he decided to develop the ten perfections (paramis) so that he could be reborn as a Buddha and spread the Dhamma in a future life. Sumedha the Hermit committed himself to countless rebirths and suffering and he eventually became our Lord Buddha. Once He achieved enlightenment, the Buddha could have spent the rest of His life enjoying Nibbana, but out of compassion, the Buddha embarked on a long and difficult life of teaching. It is the Buddha's greatest deed of compassion to teach Dhamma since in this way beings' greatest suffering, their being in the cycle of birth and death, can be overcome. It is due to the Buddha's great compassion that we today can develop the way leading to the end of suffering. At the moment of compassion there is calm. Compassion can be developed as a meditation subject of samatha by those who have accumulations to do so. The Visuddhimagga describes how compassion as one of the divine abidings is to be developed as meditation subject leading to the attainment of jhana. Compassion is developed for the purpose of purification from cruelty. When jhana is attained, compassion can be extended to all beings, and then it has become unlimited. When used as a meditation object, karuna should be developed initially towards persons who are in great distress; it is easy to feel compassion for such a person. One develops karuna by focusing on the phrase, "May be free for misery." Next one can proceed as in the development of metta; self, teacher, friend, neutral person, difficult person, all living beings, etc. Progress through meditating on the classes of beings at your own pace. One can even radiate karuna to a person who is committing evil deeds; we know the fate in store for such a person. Radiating compassion to one who is causing suffering creates a new type of relationship. Acknowledging suffering is the first stage; the second, more difficult stage, is opening your heart to suffering. Opening to suffering should be done slowly, otherwise our sense of purpose may be shattered by aversion, the near enemy of compassion. If one feels oneself moving from the trembling of the heart, which is normal for karuna, to feelings of aversion, then return the focus to the breath. There are six kinds of knowledge that can only be achieved by a Buddha and not Arahants: 1. Knowledge of the great compassion induced by ecstatic meditation (Mahakarunasamapatti-nana): this is the great compassion for beings in the heart of a Buddha who fully understands the conditions to which beings are subjected 2. All knowing wisdom 3. Wisdom that dispels all obstructions in the way of "all knowing wisdom" 4. Understanding the "depth of knowledge" of other beings 5. Understanding the accumulations of other beings 6. Power to create the double miracle (simultaneously create flame from one part of the body and water from another part) From our study of Abhidhamma, we see that when conditions arise, the cetasika karuna can arise in any of the sense sphere wholesome cittas and in any of the sense sphere functional cittas. Karuna cannot arise in sense sphere resultant cittas because the object of karuna is always a living person. Karuna can accompany the cittas of the fine material sphere up to the fourth jhana. Karuna does not appear in other cittas. References ========== Nyanaponika Thera, Ven. – "The Four Sublime States" Salzberg, Susan – "Loving Kindness, The Revolutionary Art of Hapiness" Sayadaw, Ven. Mahasi – "Brahmavihara Dhamma" Sujiva, Ven. – "Divine Abodes" van Gorkom, Nina – "Cetasikas" Comments? Metta (and karuna), Rob M :-) 26521 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 7:08am Subject: Re: Karuna (compassion) for comment Excellent work, RobM! RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > Karuna arises when one perceives helplessness in those overwhelmed > by suffering. When karuna arises, the mind cannot bear others' > suffering and wants to remove that suffering. Karuna is the opposite > of cruelty. > 26522 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma A Sujin: "Whatever we read represents realities. By weather' is meant the heat or cold or other experiences felt as a result of this condition. We use weather' as a kind of shorthand for an otherwise long detailed account of realities." Hi Nina, This is exactly as I see it also, i.e.: carriages, persons, and governments are realities insofar as the words "carriages, "persons" and "governments" point to the rise and fall of the complex manifestation of khandhas. I am hopeful that we are all (including Howard and Sarah in agreement on this point. The only issue now is to figure out a distinction between this use of concept and the use as exemplified by "mathematics". Or do we want to say mathematics is a shorthand for the rise and fall of realities (mostly? rupa). Larry 26523 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Natural Decisive Support Condition Dear Sarah, not a set of rules to be followed. I was reflecting on the purification of sila, of citta and of understanding, and thought of the text which seems to suggest first this, then that. But, how would that be possible, since it depends entirely on many conditions whether there is now a moment of developing sila, or calm or understanding. Your remark below makes this very clear. Very starnge to sit down and say to yourself: now first sila, etc. Nina. op 31-10-2003 14:24 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: For example, what would be the purpose of reading about guarding the senses’ or developing other wholesome states if they were not accumulated’ and developed. > When we read about the khandhas or > ayatanas, we’re reading about anatta and the conditioned nature of > realities. Indeed the second stage of insight is understanding about this. > I think this is the point about reading the Teachings as a description of > conditioned realities rather than as a set of rules to follow with an idea > of self’ that can do anything. It just depends how the suttas are read > and interpreted. 26524 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 0:30pm Subject: Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 > 33. When it was said above 'the things classed as aggregates, bases, > elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are > the 'soil', the "aggregates" here are the five aggregates, that is to > say, the materiality aggregate, the feeling aggregate, the perception > aggregate, the formations aggregate, and the consciousness aggregate. Hi all, Here is something on the etymology of "khandha" from Mathieu Boivert's "The Five Khandhas: Understanding Theravada Psychology and Soteriology": The term "khandha" (or its Sanskrit equivalent, "skandha") was already used in pre-Buddhist and pre-Upanisadic literature. One of the oldest Indian treatises on semantics and etymology, the "Nirukta", holds that the general meaning of "skandha" in the Veda is restricted to "the branches of a tree" since they "are attached to the tree." It is interesting to note that the word "trunk," which stands for the union of all branches of the tree, is one of the connotations of the Pali term "khandha" as well. The author of the "Nirukta" also alludes to a secondary meaning, viz. "shoulder," which is derived from the same root ("skandh" = "to be attached"), and is used in this peculiar sense because the shoulder "is attached to the body." We find a similar usage in the Pali canon: the "Samyuttanikaya" and the "Visuddhimagga" use the word "khandha" to designate shoulder. Some later pre-Buddhist texts, such as the "Chandogya Upanisad," use the word "skandha" in the sense of "branches" referring to the three branches of duty: trayo dharmaskandhah yajnah adhyayanam danam. In contrast, the "Maitri Upanisad" uses the term "skandha" in the sense of a "mass" of smoke. A similar usage of the word is found in the Pali canon: the sutta also use the word "khandha" to refer to a "mass" of fire and of water (aggikkandha and udakkhandha). This usage is wide spread in the Pali literature, for we find constant references to the "mass of suffering" (dukkhakkhandha). The word "khandha" is also used in Theravada literature to refer to the concept of "division," in the sense of a variety of constituent groups. The "Dighanikaya," for example, alludes to four "khandha"" morality (sila), concentration (samadhi), wisdom (panna),and release (vimutti). The same source mentions another association of three khandha which corresponds to the previous grouping less release. In both pre-Buddhist and Buddhist literature, the number of meanings associated with the term "khandha" is striking. However, the most important usage of the term in Pali canonical literature is in the sense of pancakkhandha, "the five aggregates." The importance of this meaning is evidenced by the fact that Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" provides only the definition referring to the five aggregates. It also must be stressed that this particular definition of the term is non-existent in currently available pre-Buddhist literature, whether Upanisadic or Vedic. Larry: Boivert goes on to make the case that the meaning of pancakkhanda is the Buddha's innovation, with somewhat "primitive" Upanisadic parallels. I think an important point for our purposes is that the five khandhas arise in experience as a group but the individual form, feeling etc. arise in experience as individuals, rather than as a group (of feeling, for example). I don't think we should attach too much philosophical importance to this word "individual". The underlying idea is the elusive, impermanent nature of experience, the "whole" of which can be analyzed into these five phenomena. Larry 26525 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 0:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Natural Decisive Support Condition Nina: "Very strange to sit down and say to yourself: now first sila, etc." Hi Nina, I think the idea is that sila, samadhi, and panna arise in a certain order over a considerable time. If you start out with the purification of knowledge and vision it is because you have perfected the other purifications in a previous life. For purposes of teaching children you should start with virtue, not profound insight into anatta. But I agree, once the basics have been understood and experienced, we develop all three more or less together. Larry 26526 From: Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 4:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Jon: "Awareness could have as object either the seeing consciousness or the visible-object, but not the composite of 'act of seeing'." Hi Jon, I agree that is what the abhidhamma says but does it say what is the consciousness of seeing consciousness without an object? What is the consciousness of consciousness alone? Larry 26527 From: Sarah Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 8:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Larry, Just to clarify, the quote you gave below was mine, not A Sijin’s. Sorry for any confusion. I use quotes and try to make it clear when I’m using someone’s exact words. I make very few if any notes during a discussion, so I’m very much reporting my own understanding and impressions (always subject to change;-)), unless, like with the brief quoted conversation about Pali, I’m quoting directly from a tape. --- Larry wrote: > A Sujin: "Whatever we read represents realities. By weather' is > meant the heat or cold or other experiences felt as a result of this > condition. We use ‘weather' as a kind of shorthand for an > otherwise long detailed account of realities." .... This is what I wrote: Sarah: >There was some discussion before between Nina and I about concepts as pakatuupanissaya paccaya and what this meant when we talk about the weather or a friend, for example as condition. K.Sujin explained that the concepts represent a detailed account of realities. This reminds me of the descriptions in the Satipatthana Sutta commentary which explain what is meant by ‘going forward’, ‘eating’ and so on. Whatever we read represents realities. By ‘weather’ is meant the heat or cold or other experiences felt as a result of this condition. We use ‘weather’ as a kind of shorthand for an otherwise long detailed account of realities.< Metta, Sarah ======= 26528 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 8:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta hi victor, How do I witness/experience/realize anatta (not self)? Like in a Buddhist parable I have read somewhere Buddha said something like '... Just as a Goldsmith tests his gold by examining it, bending it, melting it, etc. ... so you should test my words.' ...well something like that. peace, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > How do you witness what? I want to make sure if I understand your > question. > > Peace, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" > wrote: > > Hi victor, > > > > Like I said, I have read it, now how do I witness this ? > > > > > > peace, > > nori > [snip] 26529 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 8:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "Awareness could have as object either the seeing > consciousness or > the visible-object, but not the composite of 'act of seeing'." > > Hi Jon, > > I agree that is what the abhidhamma says... Yes, and also the suttas. In numerous suttas the Buddha lists out the fundamental phenomena ('dhammas') that constitute this 'world', namely: - seeing consciousness, visible-object, eye-base, contact between these 3, the feeling arising from their contact, etc; - hearing consciousness, sound, ear-base, contact between these 3, the feeling arising from their contact, etc; and so on for the other sense-doors and the mind-door. Or they are given in terms of the 5 khandhas or the dhatus -- these are just the same dhammas 'cut' another way. > ... but does it say what is the > consciousness of seeing consciousness without an object? What is > the consciousness of consciousness alone? An important point. From our studies we know that there can be no consciousness without an object. But even though both the consciousness and its object are arising contemporaneously, each has its own distinctive characteristic (as well as certain characteristics in common), and whole the point seems to be that this distinctive characteristic can be directly experienced by developed awareness, and is in no sense dependent on the distinctive characteristic of any other contemporaneously arising dhamma(s). Does this make sense? Jon 26530 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 8:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) - Cultivative speech and posts --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > In other words, it is inconvenient in the long run if, > for whatever reason, the group lets wrong interpretations > of the Dhamma go unquestioned. ... > If a > statement is made here without being challenged, there > must be an assumption that we consider it to be > consistent with those ancient texts. ...But if we allow readers > to assume inconsistent statements are actually > consistent, then we are doing them a disservice. > (Just my opinion.) > > Kind regards, > Ken H I agree with you completely. Let us not allow wrong interpretations of Dhamma remain without correction. I only suggest that instead of using the strategy of questioning the statement or objects in the statement, without offering an alternative, to immediately offer the new (what is believed to be the) correct opinion in response; to lay it out plainly on the table so that all may learn from the response. peace and metta, nori 26531 From: Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Jon: "Does this make sense?" Hi Jon, Yes, it makes perfect sense. Can you describe the consciousness of consciousness? Larry 26532 From: Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Sarah: "Just to clarify, the quote you gave below was mine, not A Sujin's." Hi Sarah, I have every confidence that you reported A. Sujin's intimation correctly. Good job! Larry 26533 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry I believe I still owe you a reply on this pre-Myanmar post ;-)). --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "Is the experience of tranquillity something you aspire to?" > > Hi Jon, > > The experience of tranquility is something I aspire to identify as > a quality distinct and different from the other "Beautiful > Universals". The Buddha taught the importance of being able to identify the distinct quality of *all* dhammas without limitation or distinction. And whatever the dhamma, the same applies -- it can be known to developed awareness as and when it (i.e., the dhamma) arises, and not otherwise. Similarly, when it comes to the *further development* of those dhammas that lead out of samsara (i.e., awareness and insight), or that are a support for the development of those dhammas (i.e., other levels of kusala, including samatha), these can be developed only as and when they arise and there is awareness accompanied by panna of one level or another. So the immediate task is to know better the presently arising dhammas, including the 'boring' ones of this moment of seeing or hardness, etc, for they are all grist to the mill of awareness/insight (or, as your latest Vism extract puts it, soil for the development of insight). For this reason, I believe it would be a mistake to aspire to the development of samatha to the exclusion of the development of satipatthana. Does this make sense? > Also, I still don't have a clear idea why the Buddha recommended > samma > samadhi or what is the exact relationship between tranquility and > concentration in samma samadhi. To my understanding, samma samadhi as used in the texts means either of the following: A. In general terms, it refers to concentration that is kusala, that is, that accompanies a kusala mind-state. Depending on the context, this could be a reference to samadhi of the level of sila, of samatha, or of vipassana (or of all 3). B. As a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, it means the ekaggataa cetasika that accompanies a moment of path consciousness (mundane or supramundane). A moment of path consciousness is a moment of vipassana/insight. At such moments the various appropriate path factors (including samma samadhi) arise together. As a path factor, samma samadhi does not occur without its fellow path factors arising also. So I would say that the Buddha explained the importance of samma samadhi, rather than that he recommended it, although he did of course recommend the development of all levels of kusala including samatha. Jon 26534 From: Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 11:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, From CMA: "The twofold tranquility has the characteristic of the quieting down of disturbances (daratha) in the mental body and consciousness, respectively. Its function is to crush such disturbances. It is manifested as peacefulness and coolness. Its proximate cause is the mental body and consciousness. It should be regarded as opposed to such defilements as restlessness and worry, which create distress." L: First, it seems to me that a disturbance in consciousness can only be a cetasika, not consciousness itself. So what is tranquility of consciousness? Secondly, crushing disturbances seems to go along with suppression of the hindrances. Perhaps we could say the main difference between tranquility and the one pointed cetasika is that we could be one pointed about worry. In jhana both tranquility and one pointedness manifest as peace. Peace is the goal, so that is the reason for cultivating concentration (or at least tranquility). Jhana is impermanent, so that is the reason for cultivating insight. Insight is always accompanied by some degree of tranquility. Agreed? Larry 26535 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 0:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "Does this make sense?" > > Hi Jon, > > Yes, it makes perfect sense. Can you describe the consciousness of > consciousness? Sorry, I'm not with you. What do you mean by 'the consciousness of consciousness'? Jon 26536 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 0:58am Subject: Question for RobK on Anatta ...Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting M "rjkjp1" : > Dear Nori and Howard, > Sorry to be wasting the time of the group. Sometimes I like > to be sure of the terms that are being used. ... I find without these > clarifications communication is limited. Hi Robert, I might have misinterpreted the 'tone' of your post. Indeed there is no communication unless we agree upon the same symbols and ideas attached to them. However questions stated only to imply that a statement is of wrong opinion without offering a new opinion is a waste of time. You however are not a waste of time; I have learned much from your posts. Might I ask you a question on anatta: RobK: ... > viz 'All dhammas are not self' on account of their being devoid of > esssence, on account of their proceeding uncontrolled, on account of > their being other, on account of their being vacant, on account of > their being void and empty, ..." endquote from The Udanatthakatha > (translation masefield p595) Am I to understand that the Buddha believes that everything we do, all the decisions we make, the thoughts that we think, the feelings we feel, are all due to "uncontrolled" cause-and-effect from pre- existing conditions? ...And since all things proceed on their due course "uncontrolled" by cause and effect from preceding conditions, there is anatta (not- self)? peace & metta, nori 26537 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 3:47am Subject: Question for RobK on Anatta ...Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting M dear Nori, Thanks for your kind comments. I reply about your question: In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: >> Might I ask you a question on anatta: > > RobK: > ... > > viz 'All dhammas are not self' on account of their being devoid of > > esssence, on account of their proceeding uncontrolled, on account of > > their being other, on account of their being vacant, on account of > > their being void and empty, ..." endquote from The Udanatthakatha > > (translation masefield p595) > > Am I to understand that the Buddha believes that everything we do, > all the decisions we make, the thoughts that we think, the feelings > we feel, are all due to "uncontrolled" cause-and-effect from pre- > existing conditions? ================================ We can't say it is all from prexisting conditions because there are present conditions too. This is thoroughly detailed in the Patthana of the Abhidhamma, which Nina van gorkom has written a very good book about. ============== > ...And since all things proceed on their due course "uncontrolled" by > cause and effect from preceding conditions, there is anatta (not- > self)? ================= They proceed uncontrolled by anyone and entirely due to conditions from past AND present. Another excellent book is by ven. Narada of Burma and can be obtained from PTS: 'guide to Conditional Relations'. I think anyone who can grasp these matters will understand anatta well intellectually and have a basis for furtehr progress. I much appreciate any interest in anatta. RobertK 26538 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > From CMA: "The twofold tranquility has the characteristic of the > quieting down of disturbances (daratha) in the mental body and > consciousness, respectively. Its function is to crush such > disturbances. > It is manifested as peacefulness and coolness. Its proximate cause > is the mental body and consciousness. It should be regarded as > opposed to such defilements as restlessness and worry, which > create distress." > > L: First, it seems to me that a disturbance in consciousness can > only be > a cetasika, not consciousness itself. So what is tranquility of > consciousness? Your quote from CMA [Ch II par. 5] is from the section dealing with sobhana cetasikas (wholesome mental factors). There are 2 tranquillity cetasikas, one is tranquillity of citta/consciousness, and the other is tranquillity of cetasika/mental factor. There is a very useful explanation of these mental factors in Nina's 'Cetasikas' at the beginning of Ch 31 (available on RobK's website at http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html or in the e-books section of Zolag at http://www.zolag.co.uk/). You might it useful to read. > Secondly, crushing disturbances seems to go along with suppression > of the hindrances. Perhaps we could say the main difference between > tranquility and the one pointed cetasika is that we could be one > pointed about worry. Yes, one-pointedness can be kusala or akusala, and it is the kusala version that is to be developed. (I'm not sure exactly what 'disturbances' means here.) As I understand it, it is not one-pointedness per se that is the path to jhaana; it is the development of kusala of the kind that is samatha, with which there comes the kusala one-pointedness that is necessary to achieve jhaana. > ... In jhana both tranquility and one pointedness manifest > as peace. Peace is the goal, so that is the reason for cultivating > concentration (or at least tranquility). Jhana is impermanent, so > that is the reason for cultivating insight. Insight is always > accompanied by some degree of tranquility. Agreed? Yes, but remember that 'peace' comes in different kinds ;-)). The goal of jhana is the peace/tranquillity of the total but temporary suspension of impressions through the sense-doors and the temporary suppression of kilesa. However, this should be contrasted with the peace of enlightenment, by which the underlying latent tendencies for akusala are permanently eradicated. This of course is a higher kind of peace. The jhaana practitioner sees the danger in the akusala that is conditioned by sense-door impressions; but in developing jhaana he/she does nothing to eradicate or even attenuate the latent tendencies for akusala, which are the real 'culprits' of the piece. Only by the development of insight (vipassana) to the stages of enlightenment can these be eradicated. Different paths, leading to different goals. Jon 26539 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 25 Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Thus it is said, ‘this discrimination of language comes to have sounds > as > its object, not a concept.’ > And the sayings of the commentaries state that the discrimination of > language occurs with the sound of language as object in the ear-door > process > and afterwards in the mind-door process. > As to the expression (in the Book of Analysis): ‘The discrimination of > language has a present object’, it is said in this connection that after > having grasped the sound of speech there is understanding. ..... It always comes down to the development of panna and understanding of present realities according to the degree of panna developed. I appreciate your additional notes very much. .... > ****** > (last part of section 25 untranslated) .... You mentioned in another post that you were waiting for me or something - I think that like here, you can select the parts which are of most interest and relevance. Even if there are dots or parts we need to clarify later, it’s OK. It’s very interesting to see what the Tika adds like here. Metta, Sarah ====== 26540 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 5:26am Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 41-43 for comment Ethically Variable Cetasikas in Daily Life Slide Contents ============== Citta + Eye + Form -> Contact Contact -> Feeling Feeling -> Perception (Naming) Perception (Naming) -> Thinks About (Memory) Thanks About (Memory) -> Mental Proliferation Small circle (nucleus) = Ultimate Reality Big Circle (surrounding small circle) = What we think is real Area between small circle and big circle = Mental Proliferation Quotation from Honeyball Sutta (Mn18) Naturally arising phenomena --------------------------- Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling. One's reaction to naturally arising phenomena --------------------------------------------- What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. Impact of one's reaction ------------------------ With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye. Speaker Notes ============= The list of mental factors used in the Abhidhamma were taken from the Suttas. Here is an example from the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18), which gives some insight into how the mind works. The first part of this extract lists the purely objective natural reaction occurring as part of the seeing process. The next part of this extract shows how, based on feeling, one reacts to the natural process of seeing. We can see that the Sutta uses many of the terms found in the Abhidhamma. The final part of this extract gives the impact of our reaction. What this Sutta tells us is that what we think is real is in fact 99% added by our own selves. Seeing things as they truly are means to understand what is an ultimate reality and what has been added onto it by our own habits and accumulations. To draw an analogy, seeing things as they truly are means to see a TV screen as coloured dots and not to be deluded by "images" on the screen. 26541 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Victor Thanks for pointing me to the place we left off, and apologies for the delay in replying. You suggest starting again. I think that's a good idea ;-)). I too have a suggestion. I think we should keep the discussion to manageable-sized chunks. So please don't think I'm avoiding any of your points or sutta quotes if I don’t cover everything in a single post ;-)) You start by asking the question, 'Why did the Buddha teach right concentration/samma samadhi?' I think the short answer is that the Buddha taught everything that needs to be known about the path leading to enlightenment. One of the most important of these is the 8 factors of which the Noble Eightfold Path is comprised. Samma samadhi is 1 of these. To my understanding, these path factors are the factors that accompany a moment of path consciousness. They are not factors to be developed separately and individually and that somehow coalesce when they have reached a certain degree. I wont cite from the commentaries here, since I understand that you don’t accept the commentarial material. Instead I'll ask whether in your view what I have just said is inconsistent with anything found in the suttas. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > It seems to me that we are talking about different questions. > > Let's go back to the original question that I asked: > > Why did the Buddha teach right concentration/samma samadhi? > > To that question, I answered: > > As a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, it leads to the cessation > of dukkha. > > Now, to realize the cessation of dukkha right concentration alone > is > not sufficient. However, to realize the cessation of dukkha, right > concentration, as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, is > necessary. 26542 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Dear Victor, Thank you for the sutta you gave to Rob K. You are right, the Buddha taught here calm and insight. Some additional remarks from the commentary. The first person has calm, but not insight. Now, as to the question, Co: the three characterstics are taught: dukkha, impermanence, non-self. N: thus, the Buddha teaches him vipassana, to see all conditioned dhammas as dukkha, impermanent and not self. As to the end of the sutta, it is said that the Buddha taught here calm and insight that are mundane as well as supermundane. My remark: The supermundane citta cannot arise without having developed also vipassana. In this sutta the Buddha exhorted the monks to develop both. The monk has more potentialities to do this, is in a better position, because of his lifestyle. Monks and laypeople are different, lead different kinds of lives, although I do not deny that also some layfollowers could develop samatha. I would like to study suttas the Buddha spoke to layfollowers. I quoted already the sutta on Longknee, the Koliyan (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Eights, Ch VI, § 4.) This is about the accomplishment of faith, the accomplishment of virtue, the accomplishment of charity, the accomplishment of wisdom. I like the Upali sutta, M I, 56. Here the Buddha gave a gradual discourse to the householder Upali: We read that Upali attained enlightenment. He had the pure, dustless eye of Dhamma. The Co explains: this is used for the three Paths, but in this case for the state of sotapanna. Then Upali said that he was very busy and had to go. This phrase is often used when laypeople take leave. I like the ending, also busy laypeople can attain enlightenment. He did not stop and sit down to ponder more on the enlightenment he had just attained. It is so natural, occurring in daily life. Very much down to earth. And also before he attained enlightenment the Buddha did not tell him to sit and concentrate first. Imagine, Upali had just experienced the highest good, and then went about his business. it shows that nibbana and the supermundane cittas cannot be objects of clinging. The supermundane cittas are merely conditioned realities. Thus, Samatha is a high degree of kusala, but not for everyone. I feel more affiliated with busy laypeople, and therefore I am more inclined to quote sutttas like the above one. In other suttas also we read that the Buddha gave a . Nina. op 31-10-2003 18:26 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 > Samadhi Sutta > Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-094.html 26543 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Also Buddhism Dear James, appreciating your letter to Philip, written with so much metta and compassion, Nina. op 31-10-2003 20:29 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: So, to make up for this You do anything you can do so that it seems > like you don't care what the teacher thinks about you, when deep down > inside that is what you care about the most. Unfortunately, your bad > behavior will cause the teacher to criticize you more which just > makes you act out more. 26544 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. Dear Lynn, op 01-11-2003 08:29 schreef Lynn Cohen op lynn.cohen@b...: , I am Lynn from the abhidhamma group of which Julie is a member. We > started off just running meditation evenings after our teacher ( a monk) > went back to Sri Lanka. He had given us some instruction on Abhidhamma. We meet every > Tuesday evening for study and discussion. N: I appreciate your and your group's interest very much. Wonderful you meet once a week. Here in dsg people would also be interested to hear about your discussions. Any discussion on Abhidhamma is always useful, Nina. 26545 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] concept a shorthand for a long detailed account of realities op 01-11-2003 16:52 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > A Sujin: "Whatever we read represents realities. By weather' is > meant the heat or cold or other experiences felt as a result of this > condition. We use weather' as a kind of shorthand for an > otherwise long detailed account of realities." L: This is exactly as I see it also, i.e.: carriages, persons, and > governments are realities insofar as the words "carriages, "persons" > and "governments" point to the rise and fall of the complex > manifestation of khandhas. N: I would turn this around: the khandhas are not as complex as carriages, persons. Insight is developed of nama and rupa, so that their rise and fall eventually can be realized. L: The only issue now is to > figure out a distinction between this use of concept and the use as > exemplified by "mathematics". Or do we want to say mathematics is a > shorthand for the rise and fall of realities (mostly? rupa). N: I am not a mathematicus, perhaps Howard can answer this. I do not see any relation here. Nina. 26546 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 8:02am Subject: The First Buddha Discourse Dear Dhamma Friends, The Buddha first preached The Dhamma called '' Dhammacekkapa '' or wheel of Dhamma to His first five disciples called Kondanna, Vappa, Baddiya, Mahanama, and Assaji in the deer park called '' Isipatana '' on the full moonday of 4th month of Buddha calendar or on the 60th day of Buddhahood as Brahma King '' Sahampati '' requested. Ananda retold his first-hand knowledge of The Buddha first discourse as he heard through his own ears from the live Buddha. Ananda answered this discourse to Mahakassapa and attenders of the first Sangha Council ( Sanghayana ). Once , Bhagava, when He was in the deer park ' Isipatana ' in Varanasi, said to His first five disciples at the foot of Bodhi-tree ( Banyan ): '' O Monks! Those who have been ordained have to avoid two extreme things which are extremely bad in terms of Way for liberation. The first is called ' Kamasukhallikanuyogo ' which arises along with sensural pleasure as boosted by Chandha Raga and Tanha. '' '' And the second is called 'Attakilamathanuyogo ' which arises along with self tortures such as sleeping on thorns, non-justifiable avoiding eating of enough food for health etc. These two extremes are to be avoided if one intends for liberation.'' '' After avoiding these two extremes, you have to hold the middle path called ' Ariyo Atthingiko Maggo ' or Noble Eightfold Path or Eight-factored Path. Following this path will already exclude two extremes. This path comprises Samma Ditthi, Samma Sankappa, Samma Vaca, Samma Kammanta, Samma Ajiva, Samma Vayama, Samma Sati, and Samma Samadhi. All these 8 factors are Magganga or parts of the path.'' '' Jati, Jara, Vyadhi, Marana, accompanying with hatred ones, departing from beloved ones, not obtaining what one wants, five Upadanakkhandha or 5 clingings are all Dukkha. Realising all these as Dukkha is the first Ariya's Sacca called Dukkha Ariya's Sacca.'' ''Kama Tanha or sensual desire, Bhava Tanha or desire for eternal life and Vibhava Tanha or desire of complete ceasation of all after death are all the cause of Dukkha and this Tanha or Samudaya becomes the second Ariya's Sacca which has to be eradicated.'' '' There is a state that completely ... free of all forms of Dukkha, ...devoid of any Dukkha ...exists as ceasation of all Dukkha ...releases all attachment and clinging ...totally deserts all Tanha hooked things ...escapes from all forms of Dukkha ...stays absolutely detached to anything. That state is called Nibbana. This state of ceasation becomes the third Ariya's Sacca. '' ' Ariya Atthingiko Maggo ' or Noble Eightfold Path or Eight-factored Path is called Majjimapatipada or the middle path, which refrains from two extremes of Kamasukhallikanuyogo or staying with sensual pleasure and Attakilamathanuyogo or staying self torturing.This path is called Dukkha Nirodha Gamini Patipada or simply 'suffering ceasing path practice '. This Noble Eightfold Path becomes the fourth Ariya's Sacca.'' Tathagata continued.. '' O Monks! I have got eye-sight ( Cakkhu ) into these matters, knowledge ( Nana ) of these matters,realization ( Panna ) of these matters at their full length, penetrative wisdom ( Vijja ) to these matters, and a bright light that strikes away all darkness that hides these Sacca.'' '' O monks! I have got the wisdom that can reveal complete picture of Dukkha, this is Dukkha, this Dukkha has this dimension, it is not more than this dimension and it is not less than this dimension and I have got the wisdom that figures out any Dukkha.'' '' Such things which I have never known before now come to me as I have got eye-sight, knowledge, realization at full length, penetrative wisdom and the bright light casting on Sacca.'' '' O Monks! Tanha is the source of Dukkha. There are three kinds called Kama Tanha, Bhava Tanha and Vibhava Tanha. As there are six senses, there are 18 Tanha. Ijjatta ( inside ) and Bahiddha ( outside ) make 36 Tanha. There are three temporal existances of present past and future so there are 108 Tanha. I have realized all these Tanha. As I have realized I have eradicated Ditthi and Vicikiccha through Sotapatti Magga, eradicated Kama Raga through Anagami Magga and Rupa and Arupa Tanha through Arahatta Magga. I have eradicated the second Sacca Samudaya which is the cause of sufferings.'' '' O Monks! The state called Nibbana is devoid of all forms of Dukkha. I have seen it with my mind-eye. Nibbana can be ' Sa-Upadisesa ' that is when alive being realization of that state and ' Anupadisesa ' that is total extinguishment of all fire of Dukkha which comes next to death.'' '' Nibbana can be called ' Sunnata Nibbana ', or ' Animitta Nibbana ' or ' Appanihita Nibbana '. These three are states and they arise from how Ariyas see the Dhamma on their path. If they view with Anatta Sanna ( recognition as Anatta ), Nibbana becomes Sunnata Nibbana. If see with Anicca Sanna ( recognition as Anicca ), Nibbana is Animitta Nibbana and if with Dukkha, it becomes Appanihita Nibbana.'' '' O Monks! I have realized the ceasation of all Dukkha through Magga Nana, Phala Nana, Paccavakkhana Nana. This state of ceasation of all Dukkha or Nibbana becomes the third Ariya's Sacca.'' '' O Monks! The fourth Sacca is Dukkha Nirodha Gamini Patipada Ariya's Sacca. It is Noble eightfold Path or Ariya Atthingiko Maggo. This path is to be maintained in the state of increasing amount and make abundant and proliferate and to be practised.'' '' O Monks! As long as I have not seen all these Sacca, I have not admitted that I have seen these. When I have realized all, I admit that I have realized all these Dhamma through Arahatta Magga Nana and Sabbannuta Nana. My this very life is the last life in Samsara and I definitely will not have any more rebirth.'' The first five disciples all liked the first discourse and they wailed Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! aloud. Kondanna became Sotapam immediately after the discourse and he asked for monkhood under The Buddha Sasana or teachings. The Buddha allowed him and called him '' Come on Bhikkhu '' and Kondanna became the very first member of Sangha in The Buddha Sasana. After the discourse, earth Deva wailed that '' Gotama The Buddha has preached Dhammacakkappa, which no other Satta can never ever ever can do so. This wailing spread to Catu Maharaja Deva realm, Tavatimsa Deva realm, Yama Deva realm, Tusita Deva realm, Nimmanarati Deva realm, Paranimmitavassavati Deva realm and Brahma realms. The Buddha announced that Kondanna realized Ariya Sacca through Sotapatti Magga. Since then Kondanna became '' Annasi Kondanna ''. The 1st waning day was the day for Vappa, the 2nd for Baddiya, the 3rd for Mahanama and the 4th for Assaji that they all each became Sotapams on their specific days. The Buddha preached the second discourse '' Anattalakkhana Sutta '' on the 5th waning day of the 4th month of Buddha calendar. All five disciples became Arahats at the end of the second discourse. The first five disciples were all Arahats so did next hundreds and thousands of ordained disciples all these sattas constituted Sangha group. May you all be able to realize Four Ariya's Noble Truths in this very life. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing Moderator_JourneyToNibbana Yahoo Group 26547 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 11:01am Subject: Meaning in life Hello All, Got back from Thailand/Myanmar yesterday and am trying to catch up on three weeks posts - you are such a talkative lot! (among others, I appreciate RobM's Karuna post and one by RobK on aspects of anatta - I'll need to read them again a couple of times but will likely have a question or so). A few things seemed to come up again and again in the Myanmar and Thailand discussions for me - anatta as always, and vipaka. Ajahn Sujins' "In the seeing, there is just seeing" made a big impact - which led onto more 'proliferating' thoughts caused, I think, because I'm searching for a 'meaning' in life - if I can't have the 'stories', where did the meaning go? Just namas and rupas seem so boring without "me" in there co-ordinating, assessing, and trying to direct all the experiences. The best alternative to the repetitive pointlessness of existence would seem to be liberation - though surely *I* should have a nobler motive? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26548 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 11:11am Subject: Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi all, Here are some notes by B. Bodhi and the SN commentary (Spk) on SN XII 95 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-095.html This sutta examines the khandhas using the similes of foam, bubble, mirage, plantain trunk, and magical illusion: B. Bodhi: In the context of early Buddhist thought these similes have to be handled with care. They are not intended to suggest an illusionist view of the world but to show that our conceptions of the world, and of our own existence, are largely distorted by the process of cognition. Just as the mirage and magical illusion are based on real existents--the sand of the desert, the magician's appurtenances-- so these false conceptions arise from a base that objectively exists, namely, the five aggregates; but when seen through a mind subject to conceptual distortion, the aggregates appear in a way that deviates from their actual nature. Instead of being seen as transient and selfless, they appear as substantial and as a self. BB: Spk explains at length how form (i.e., the body) is like a lump of foam (phe.napi.n.da). I give merely the highlights: as a lump of foam lacks any substance (saara), so form lacks any substance that is permanent, stable, a self; as the lump of foam is full of holes and fissures and the abode of many creatures, so too form; as the lump of foam, after expanding, breaks up, so does form, which is pulverized in the mouth of death... Spk: A bubble (bubbu.la) is feeble and cannot be grasped, for it breaks up as soon as it is seized; so too feeling is feeble and cannot be grasped as permanent and stable. As a bubble arises and ceases in a drop of water and does not last long, so too with feeling: 100,000 ko.tis of feelings arise and cease in the time of a fingersnap (one ko.ti = 10 million). As a bubble arises in dependence on conditions, so feeling arises in dependence on a sense base, an object, the defilements, and contact. Spk: Perception is like a mirage (mariicikaa) in the sense that it is insubstantial, for one cannot grasp a mirage to drink or bathe or fill a pitcher. As a mirage deceives the multitude, so does perception, which entices people with the idea that the colourful object is beautiful, pleasurable, and permanent. Spk: As a plantain trunk (kadalikkhandha) is an assemblage of many sheaths, each with its own characteristic, so the aggregate of volitional formations is an assemblage of many phenomena, each with its own characteristic. Spk: Consciousness is like a magical illusion (maayaa) in the sense that it is insubstantial and cannot be grasped. Consciousness is even more transient and fleeting than a magical illusion. For it gives the impression that a person comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind, but the mind is different in each of these activities. Consciousness deceives the multitude like a magical illusion. Larry: Perhaps we could say consciousness gives the impression that a person comes and goes with the same mind because of the unchanging nature of consciousness itself, while what changes is the object of consciousness and the mental body (feeling, perception, volitional formations). It is interesting that of the three "modes of knowing" (perception, consciousness, understanding) understanding falls in the volitional formations category which is illustrated by the plantain trunk which is an assemblage of many phenomena. Understanding understands precisely this, that experience is an assemblage of many phenomena, each with its own characteristic. Larry 26549 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 11:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Nori, Now I understand your question. Being inconstant, dukkha, not self is a characteristic of the conditioned, be it physical object, form, body, feeling, emotion, consciousness, will, idea, concept, thought, event, phenomenon, relation, et cetera. Now, let me ask this question: Who or what else can realize the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless for you except you your self? Can the conditioned realize the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless? No, it can't. How can what is inconstant, subject to change, dukkha realize the cessation of dukkha if it itself is dukkha? Only you can realize the cessation of dukkha for your self, nothing and no one else can. Let me ask this question: Is what is inconstant, subject to change, dukkha fit to be seen thus: "This is mine. This I am. This is my self."? No, what is inconstant, subject to change, dukkha is not fit to be seen thus: "This is mine. This I am. This is my self." What is inconstant, subject to change, dukkha is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Peace, Victor [snip] 26550 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 0:06pm Subject: Re: Meaning in life Hi Christine, Welcome back. I am not sure what you mean by "meaning in life". Do you mean a goal to realize? If so, is what is to be realized the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless? As I see it, what is to be realized is the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless. What the Buddha taught in this discourse touches me: Samyutta Nikaya XV.3 Assu Sutta Tears http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn15-003.html At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time -- crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing -- or the water in the four great oceans?" "As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time -- crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing -- not the water in the four great oceans." "Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me. "This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time -- crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing -- not the water in the four great oceans. "Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time -- crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing -- are greater than the water in the four great oceans. "Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time -- crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing -- are greater than the water in the four great oceans. "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello All, [snip] 26551 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 0:39pm Subject: Re: Meaning in life Hi Victor, "Meaning in Life" is what I feel is lost when looking at life as paramattha dhammas and not the stories that we live in. I spend most of my life lost in the stories of self. The Assu Sutta is a great sutta, thanks for posting it - 'inconstruable beginning' and 'wandering on' - these phrases are so evocative of weariness, misery and aloneness. How fooled we are by grasping at only the happiness and sadnesses of this brief little life, and how conceited are all our self-centred little plans. If we could only realise we can't avoid experiencinge everything unaccountable, unceasing times, it would lose its attraction. (perhaps). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Welcome back. > > I am not sure what you mean by "meaning in life". Do you mean a > goal to realize? If so, is what is to be realized the cessation of > dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless? As I see it, what is to be > realized is the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless. > > What the Buddha taught in this discourse touches me: > > Samyutta Nikaya XV.3 > Assu Sutta > Tears > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn15-003.html > 26552 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 0:44pm Subject: kamma and vipaka Dear All, On the trip some of us found kamma and vipaka coming to attention more than usual. In discussion with dhamma friends, I was told vipaka is just a moment, not the whole story. Maybe vipaka is all the moments that make up the story, a million vipakas quite unrelated, and it is *self* that does the weaving of it into a narrative - my story, this is happening to me? If a part of each moment is vipaka (result), that would mean that everything that comes in through each of the sense doors is vipaka (result). (The length of samsara backwards and forwards for this to be so is a little overwhelming, don't you think?) I have two stories, find the vipaka: 1. "Don't trust your friends at dinner-time" One evening, I tasted a dish that I thought included a square piece of red dessert jelly. It tasted a little strong, a little savoury, a little strange. I mentioned this to K. Betty who had been interestedly watching. She said (with a smile) - 'it's coagulated pigs' blood'. Azita was most helpful then, covering the choking sounds, by having a nurses' discussion about the use of pigs' arteries in heart surgery. (No Azita! not helpful!) (experiencing the taste, wondering, enquiring, hearing the answer --> feeling aversion, feeling aversion, feeling aversion) 2. "Don't mess with Thai ladies when they're armed with mobile phones" The group visited an Orchid growing centre. After looking at the beautiful flowering plants, I thought I would buy some orchid jewellery. The sales assistant converted the Thai Baht to $US and I paid (not being terribly familiar with either currency, but having $US left over from Myanmar). We continued on our way on the winding mountain roads of Chiangmai in our ten seater vans. Talking over our purchases later, the ladies discovered I had spent $82.00 instead of $22.00 (but what can you expect from a farang the expressions said. Thank heavens I was one of *their* farangs!). There were seven determined Thai ladies on my bus - and that means (at least) seven mobile phones. Within ten minutes, due to a concerted team effort, the Orchid Centre had been contacted, the situation 'discussed', a meeting arranged, the bus diverted, and a refund accomplished. It was a genuine mistake - both the sales assistant and I were equally unfamiliar with the currency and the calculator functions. (happy, enjoying visit and satisfied with purchase. Show and Tell. Noting expressions, hearing about overpayment, unhappy. Very strong aversion. Embarrassment. Hope. Relief. Gratitude. happy, enjoying visit and satisfied with purchase again.) I understand, after reading discussion considering, that 'feeling' is a condition for 'craving', and craving is viewed as the root of the Round, - what can be done about 'feeling' which just seems to flare up? It was also said that the point of learning about Dhamma is to get in a positon not to create new kamma and vipaka, to lessen the strength of the kilesas (defilements). How do you do that when there is no 'we' to have a choice? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26553 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 1:19pm Subject: Re: Meaning in life --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Welcome back. > > I am not sure what you mean by "meaning in life". Do you mean a > goal to realize? If so, is what is to be realized the cessation of > dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless? As I see it, what is to be > realized is the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless. > > What the Buddha taught in this discourse touches me: > > Samyutta Nikaya XV.3 > Assu Sutta > Tears > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn15-003.html Hi Victor, That sutta is very touching to me also. It is melancholic to consider the eons of suffering we have all encountered. However, I would not say that ending this suffering is `the meaning' to everyone's lives; at least not in the way I understand Christine to be using that phrase. Some people are meant to "realize the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless" in this very lifetime, and some people are not. Actually, I would posit that the meaning of one's life is to realize one's karma. For example, a friend of mine here in Cairo went to see a therapist to do a `past life regression' session. She told me about it because she knows that I am Buddhist and thus believe in rebirth. Through this session, by recalling a past life that strongly influenced her current life, she felt that she had found greater meaning in this life. I could sense that she was quite sincere and credulous. The Buddha was able to see the whole picture, not only his past lives but the past lives of all those he put his mind to; we are not so lucky. The majority of us only exist in this current life with no knowledge of past lives. To use an analogy, it is like we only know one chapter of a book that has many chapters, and finding meaning is figuring out how that one chapter fits in with the rest. If this knowledge leads to the end of the book, great; however, if it leads to another chapter that eventually leads to the end of the book, that is great also. The problem is when a chapter (a certain karmic stream) is repeated again and again, through countless eons, because the lessons are never learned. That is definitely where following the Eightfold Path can help. The Buddha mainly addressed monks who were in their final chapter; we have to remember that not everyone (including ourselves) is at that point yet. I am not suggesting that anyone do `past life regression' sessions since I really don't know much about them. However, I would suggest that if one wants to learn about past lives, do what the Buddha taught in that regard: Meditate (Jhanic/Concentration). Metta, James 26554 From: nordwest Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 1:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meaning in life Isn't the meaning of human life to attain enlightenment and escape the suffering to help others to attain the same thing? Gassho, Thomas buddhatrue wrote: ... Hi Victor, That sutta is very touching to me also. It is melancholic to consider the eons of suffering we have all encountered. However, I would not say that ending this suffering is `the meaning' to everyone's lives; at least not in the way I understand Christine to be using that phrase. Some people are meant to "realize the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless" in this very lifetime, and some people are not. Actually, I would posit that the meaning of one's life is to realize one's karma.... 26555 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 2:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Meaning in life --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: > Isn't the meaning of human life to attain enlightenment and escape the suffering to help others to attain the same thing? > > Gassho, > Thomas Hi Thomas, Hmmm....you make it sound kinda simple. Since you haven't attained enlightenment yet does that mean that your life has no meaning? You are looking at the final goal, I was addressing getting to that goal. Metta, James 26556 From: Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 4:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Jon: '"Sorry, I'm not with you. What do you mean by 'the consciousness of consciousness'?" Hi Jon, Consciousness as object of consciousness, distinguished from its object and accompanying cetasikas. I believe consciousness is the same regardless of object, cetasikas, sphere, plane and possibly (?) function. Am I understanding this correctly? When consciousness (A) is the object of consciousness (B) is the object of A included with A as object of B? Or would that make two objects? If the object of A is not included, then can you describe this consciousness of consciousness? Doesn't this mean the object consciousness is arising without an object itself? If consciousness can't be distinguished from its object how do we know they are two, not one? Let me know if you want more of this spaghetti. Larry 26557 From: Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, It occured to me that the tranquility of consciousness cetasika may relate to the objects of consciousness, establishing a bias in favor of objects more condusive to tranquility. Hence the 40 meditation objects. If I am undersanding consciousess correctly, consciousness itself is never in need of tranquilizing. Larry 26558 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 4:43pm Subject: Worrying about others (and oneself) Dear Group, There was discussion on the trip about children, parents, relatives, partners etc. who are not interested in Buddadhamma in this rare and precious human life, and much wondering about how to 'encourage' them to take an interest. Often I feel that if only I could present the Dhamma skillfully enough they would be convinced. Others talked of accumulations, conditions, vipaka - and of how even many who heard the Buddha remained untouched by the truth about reality. Can you imagine such a wasted chance? Don't we each occasionally think that if only we were born 2600 years ago, and could speak to a living Buddha in a common language, there would be no more doubts, the way to enlightenment would be assured? After all, it's only the distance in time and having to rely on translations that prevents insight from arising, isn't it? :-) In Yangon one night, the English group decided not to go out to dinner and cultural presentation with the others, and to have a Dhamma discussion with K. Sujin in her rooms. Just as we began, there was a knock on the door, and a Myanmar family, having heard K. Sujin was there, seized the opportunity to see and hear her. They were made welcome and one man wanted to know what he could do for his mother who was at that moment unconscious and dying in hospital - it seemed he had had to choose between being at the bedside and coming to see Tan Ajahn. I was thinking of things such as 'sound' being the last faculty to fade, maybe loving words or recordings of dhamma or chanting would help, maybe even gentle massage. Tan Ajahn simply said that the best thing he could do was to be a good son. I was a little puzzled by this, still am. At other times, there was discussion about things we have done in the past (this life or others) before and since we knew the Dhamma, and whether kamma and vipaka must run their course - some wondered how it could ever end - so many flickering moments of kamma and vipaka ceaselessly happening every instant, having result, engendering new kamma, result, more reaction on and on. But then ... there was Angulimala who went from multiple murderer (999 victims?) to Sotapana and on through the stages of holiness to Arahat in one life. I'm sure it would be very fair if it happened to *me* - but 999 murders and not even a jail term? I wonder what the families of the victims thought? Is panna so powerful that it can wipe out or ameliorate kammic debts? Something would have to be - if we had to experience the result of every thought word and deed there could be no liberation. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26559 From: Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 0:30pm Subject: Bouncing Messages Hi, all - I've been notified that list messages from th Yahoo groups to which I belong have been bouncing. There are a number of messages that have bounced, some of which may have been targeted at me. If I have not replied to any messages sent to me, this is the reason. I replied to the bouncing notification,which is supposed to fix things. We'll see. Hey! Maybe Yahoo is telling me I should meditate more and post less. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26560 From: upasaka_howard Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 6:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Jon - I'm replying from the web site. I'm hoping that the bouncing will stop soon, but meanwhile I'll read & respond to messages this way. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > ... > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > ...An act of consciousness is a knowing of an object via an > activated sense door. .Neither the knowing, nor the known, nor the > sense-door activation occur other than as aspects of an act of > consciousness. But the act of consciousness, itself, is an event, an > occurrence, arising only in dependence on its aspects of knowing, > known, and sensory doorway, and in dependence on the coming together > of earlier conditions, including sankhara, and, before that, avijja. > So it is completely a fleeting, conditioned event, dependent on other > equally empty phenomena. > ... > A moment of seeing is an act of consciousness which is the knowing of > a visible object via the eye door. There is no knowing of the entire > act of seeing at that time, for that would involve a double object. > But after the moment of seeing, there could follow an awareness of > that just-passed moment of seeing. > BTW, Jon, I'll ask you also: Do you find this discussion > helping move you towards enlightenment? Or is it just a kind of > psychological theorizing we are engaging in? (I think the latter!) > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Jon: > You ask whether I think discussion about moments of consciousness can > be helpful in developing the path. > > I believe the answer is clearly Yes. On my reading of the teachings, > a proper intellectual grasp of awareness and insight, of the > conditions for their development, and the phenomena that can be their > object (and also what cannot be their object) is a necessary > prerequisite for awareness and understanding at a more direct level > to arise. This cannot be gained without reading, listening, inquiry, > discussion and reflection, all done repeatedly. > > There is frequent mention in the suttas of the importance of meeting > the right friend, hearing the teachings, listening to one's teacher, > considering what has been heard, etc. These are all references to > acquiring understanding at the intellectual level. > > Without this it's too easy to simply follow one's own idea about the > way things are, and this could be an obstacle to the development of > the path. > > I notice you mention a number of times in this and your previous post > an 'act of consciousness', and you give as an example 'a moment of > seeing ... which is the knowing of a visible object via the eye > door'. You describe the consciousness and object of that moment as > 'inseparable', and you say this act of consciousness/act of seeing > can be the object of awareness (I hope I have understood you > correctly). > > According to my reading of the teachings, there is no fundamental > phenomenon of 'act of seeing' and, accordingly, since it is the > fundamental phenomena that are the object of awareness, there could > never be awareness of such a thing. Awareness could have as object > either the seeing consciousness or the visible-object, but not the > composite of 'act of seeing'. > > In terms of the tipitaka and ancient commentaries (as I read them), > 'act of seeing' would be a concept, i.e., not something having its > own characteristic, like the seeing consciousness and visible-object > that are the fundamental phenomena of that moment and are potentially > capable of being objects of awareness. ------------------------------ Howard: As I mentioned in a previous post, by an 'act of consciousness' I mean "contact," and nothing more or less. In the suttas, the Buddha defines contact to be exactly the coming together of sense object, sense door, and sense consciousness. This is what the Buddha meant by 'phassa'. If phassa is concept-only, then phassa is just a useful fiction, not a truly occuring event, or at least not a fundamental one. However, I don't consider it to be concept-only. I understand such an event to be fundamental. Moreover, none of its three aspects occur without the others, which is exactly what I mean by their being "inseparable." The Buddha *did* define 'contact' in the suttas to be the coming together of sense object, sense door, and sense consciousness. If the Abhidhamma sees it differently, then the Abhidhamma takes exception to the Buddha's position. I'll go with the Buddha. ------------------------------- I think that to regard a > concept as having a characteristic of its own, as being on a par with > the fundamental phenomena that arise at that moment, can fairly be > described as a form of reification, but you will no doubt disagree > with this characterisation ;-)). -------------------------------- Howard: I have never experienced objectless consciousness. Have you, Jon? I've never known an unexperienced object of consciousness. Have you? In fact, is there such a thing as a sense-door activation, a sense object, or a sense consciousness ever occurrng except as an aspect of an act of consciousness (phassa/contact)? I don't believe so. As far as reification is concerned, *whatever* we dream has its own being, whether a fundamental event or a complex one, is locus for reification. But when we realize that there are no self-existent things at all, but only fleeting, interdependent, events or conditions, then we are not engaged in reification. -------------------------------- > > I hope I have not misunderstood your reference to 'act of seeing/act > of consciousness'. My apologies if I have -- is it something taken > from the texts? ------------------------------ Howard: Well, if you understand me to mean phassa, then you understand me correctly. ----------------------------- > > Jon > > =========================== With metta, Howard > 26561 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 6:27pm Subject: Re: Meaning in life Hi Christine, No problem. The discourse strikes a chord and speaks to me in a way that puts life in perspective. Indeed long have we thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 26562 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 7:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Victor, What is the self? Is it eternal? Is it the creation of a god? Did the Buddha know about it? If he did know about it, why didn't he mention it? Ken H > Now, let me ask this question: > > Who or what else can realize the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, > the deathless for you except you your self? > > Can the conditioned realize the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, > the deathless? > > No, it can't. > > How can what is inconstant, subject to change, dukkha realize the > cessation of dukkha if it itself is dukkha? > > Only you can realize the cessation of dukkha for your self, nothing > and no one else can. > > Let me ask this question: > > Is what is inconstant, subject to change, dukkha fit to be seen > thus: "This is mine. This I am. This is my self."? > > No, what is inconstant, subject to change, dukkha is not fit to be > seen thus: "This is mine. This I am. This is my self." > > What is inconstant, subject to change, dukkha is to be seen as it > actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I > am not. This is not my self." > > Peace, > Victor 26563 From: Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 3:04pm Subject: Testing - Empty Message 26564 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 8:13pm Subject: Re: Meaning in life Hi James, I appreciate the book analogy. I also would not say that ending this dukkha/suffering is `the meaning' to everyone's lives. If finding meaning in life is understood as achieving degree of happiness, satisfaction, or realization in life, then meaning of life can mean differently to different people. Some might find the meaning in life in making money and accumulating wealth. Some might find the meaning in life in wielding political power over others. Some might find the meaning of life in creative activity. Some might find the meaning of life in accumulating and specializing in certain field of knowledge. Some might find meaning of life in communicating with higher divine being. Some might find meaning in life in providing service helping others.....the list goes on. However, any of the pursuits listed above does not lead to the deathless, the unbinding. If one does not have the goal of realizing the unbinding, either in this very life or in the future, one would just wander in the round of rebirth indefinitely. Not everyone is at the same point in their development to realize the cessation of dukkha. However, for everyone on the path to the realization of the deathless, the aspiration to the realize the unbinding is necessary. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 26565 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 8:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Ken, I would suggest abandoning the line of inquiry in your message. This line of inquiry is unskillful, connected with speculative reasoning, not connected with what the Buddha taught. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Victor, [snip] 26566 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Karuna (compassion) for comment Dear Rob M, Thank you very much, many good thoughts about compassion. One remark, see below. op 01-11-2003 15:23 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > We should develop the skill of > compassion before trying to realize the first noble truth; > otherwise, we may be overwhelmed. Compassion means having our hearts > engaged, not overwhelmed or broken. N: It all depends on conditions what will be developed at which moment, I do not think of a certain order. When understanding of nama and rupa is being developed, eventually dukkha and the other noble Truths will be realized. And also: it will be known more clearly when there is compassion and when aversion. When there is right understanding we will not be overwhelmed, or if we are, these moments will be known. At the moment of panna there is no aversion. Nina. 26567 From: nordwest Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 5:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meaning in life Then the way is the goal. Isn't it? :) Enlightenment comes in layers, little by little normally. This flash-enlightening of Zen stories is really a rare one. I think, we are all a little bit enlightened, but not complete perfectly. Gassho, Thomas buddhatrue wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: > Isn't the meaning of human life to attain enlightenment and escape the suffering to help others to attain the same thing? > > Gassho, > Thomas Hi Thomas, Hmmm....you make it sound kinda simple. Since you haven't attained enlightenment yet does that mean that your life has no meaning? You are looking at the final goal, I was addressing getting to that goal. Metta, James 26568 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 10:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and vipaka Hi Christine, I’m sure others like us are glad to see you back on list;-) --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > On the trip some of us found kamma and vipaka coming to attention > more than usual. In discussion with dhamma friends, > I was told vipaka is just a moment, not the whole story. ..... Right. Let’s face facts and accept that sometimes it’s quite a relief to understand (at least in theory) that some of our accumulated tendencies are anatta and not *ME* that is responsible..... I think one lesson we could learn is that you could do with a *treasurer* nearby who understands the real value of various coins and currencies, whilst I could do with a *bodyguard* who looks out for pitfalls as I cheerily expound on ‘awareness at anytime’. ..... C: > I have two stories, find the vipaka: > 1. "Don't trust your friends at dinner-time" > One evening, I tasted a dish that I thought included a square piece > of red dessert jelly. .... Loved this first story, but will pass to the second which relates to the ‘regal’ accumulations in need of a treasurer;-) ..... C: >Talking over our > purchases later, the ladies discovered I had spent $82.00 instead of > $22.00 (but what can you expect from a farang the expressions said. > Thank heavens I was one of *their* farangs!). ..... Now, Chris, when you’ve hinted to me on several occasions that your adult children don’t really trust you and your purse alone in Asia, I’ve tried to be sympathetic. When you told me about the poor taxi driver who moved you from one hotel to another and then had to face hotel security systems to find you to get paid, I put it down to delayed jet-lag. Skipping one or two other little stories (maybe we can hold the ‘bag’ responsible for the little panic in Mandalay) and just touching on the strange idea that Shakti and Sukin got when they felt they needed to watch you carefully as you bought a Buddha in Pagan.....I think I’m beginning to get the picture;-) Still, who or what are these accumulations to talk? There’s embarrassment just at the thought of them;-( Azita rang from the airport in Hong Kong on Saturday nite as we were listening to Santana live through our living-room window. She kindly asked how my leg was doing, having seen it sticking out at awkward angles all over Myanmar in recovery mode. What I couldn’t face telling her on the phone (or DSG last week for that matter), was that after checking the list, the first thing I did on return from Thailand was to wander out to the nearby shopping mall and relieved at no longer having to look out for broken Thai and Burmese pavements, I underestimated the lingering weakness in the left leg as I took a step down. CRACK, I fell and twisted my right ankle. Back to bandages and sticks, having to be ‘rescued’, having to face students with another leg suspended.... Still, I needn’t have worried about the latter - Starkid Philip and his friends were too busy showing off their bruises and cuts from Camp, determined they were far worse than mine. I was happy to be ‘out-done’;-) So now, I’m getting good value from Dr Ma as he treats my rt arm, left leg and rt ankle at the same time. No orchid jewellery or Buddha bargains, but the dollars I didn’t spend are rapidly being taken care of in these all-in-one fix-it sessions. ..... > I understand, after reading discussion considering, that 'feeling' is > a condition for 'craving', and craving is viewed as the root of the > Round, - what can be done about 'feeling' which just seems to flare > up? .... Feeling just feels - pleasant, unpleasant or neutral - for an instant and then gone. .... >It was also said that the point of learning about Dhamma is to > get in a positon not to create new kamma and vipaka, to lessen the > strength of the kilesas (defilements). .... I think the point is to undestand and accept with detachment, whatever is conditioned at this moment. We might like to get in this ‘position’ you mention or ‘to lessen the strength of the kilesas’, but this is wishing (lobha whispering) again, usually with an idea of ‘self’ that can do something;-( .... >How do you do that when there > is no 'we' to have a choice? .... ‘You’ and ‘We’ don’t;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Look forward to more of your colourful accounts, Chris - I can see the others had a lot of fun as you politely tasted your ‘jelly’;-) ====== 26569 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Worrying about others (and oneself) Hi Christine (& Htoo), I’ll try not to be too frivolous this time - --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > C: > There was discussion on the trip about children, parents, relatives, > partners etc. who are not interested in Buddadhamma in this rare and > precious human life, and much wondering about how to 'encourage' > them to take an interest. Often I feel that if only I could present > the Dhamma skillfully enough they would be convinced. <..> .... Doesn’t this bring us back to ‘whispering lobha’ again - wishing we might understand more, wishing our dear ones might take interest, wishing our elderly parents might at least have kusala cittas (wholesome consciousness) at the ends of their lives....? .... I liked the reminder Htoo gave about the various kinds of attachment or craving (tanha) as elaborated both in the suttas and Abhidhamma (not quite sure whether this is a translation of a sutta or an elaboration of part of the Dhammacakkapavattana sutta, Htoo??): Htoo: >'' O Monks! Tanha is the source of Dukkha. There are three kinds called Kama Tanha, Bhava Tanha and Vibhava Tanha. As there are six senses, there are 18 Tanha. Ijjatta ( inside ) and Bahiddha ( outside ) make 36 Tanha. There are three temporal existances of present past and future so there are 108 Tanha. I have realized all these Tanha. As I have realized I have eradicated Ditthi and Vicikiccha through Sotapatti Magga, eradicated Kama Raga through Anagami Magga and Rupa and Arupa Tanha through Arahatta Magga. I have eradicated the second Sacca Samudaya which is the cause of sufferings.''< ..... C: > In Yangon one night, the English group decided not to go out to > dinner and cultural presentation with the others, and to have a > Dhamma discussion with K. Sujin in her rooms. Just as we began, > there was a knock on the door, and a Myanmar family, having heard K. > Sujin was there, seized the opportunity to see and hear her. They > were made welcome and one man wanted to know what he could do for his > mother who was at that moment unconscious and dying in hospital - it > seemed he had had to choose between being at the bedside and coming > to see Tan Ajahn. I was thinking of things such as 'sound' being > the last faculty to fade, maybe loving words or recordings of dhamma > or chanting would help, maybe even gentle massage. Tan Ajahn simply > said that the best thing he could do was to be a good son. I was a > little puzzled by this, still am. .... You were kindly trying to help the man and I could see your surprise as K.Sujin ‘cut’ the story and gentle suggestions in the following discussion. What I understood her to mean is that we know our parents better than anyone else and so we know at the time what they’d like and how to make them comfortable. It depends on many factors what is appropriate and we can all do our best accordingly. I remember being in the hosptial with A.Sujin when her own father was dying and watched her stroking him, supervising nurses, camping in the room and occasionally discussing dhamma with other visitors. When Jon’s mother was dying recently, her main concern was to have her three sons present and her Christian pastor recite Christian prayers to her. Whilst we can share experiences and advice, the best help and friendship we can give each other is by giving reminders about the present realities. This is why, I think, K.Sujin made brief comments about ‘being a good son’, suggesting the son do as he needed to do and spent the rest of the precious opportunity in encouraging an understanding of present namas and rupas - understanding more about the four noble truths, about practice and development of understanding at the present moment and so on. Whilst it might seem ‘heartless’ or lacking in compassion to discuss realities at such a time, I think this is what the family wished to hear and why they had come to listen rather than spend all their time in the hospital. I’m not sure if this makes sense. ..... <...> > Is panna so powerful that it can wipe out or ameliorate kammic > debts? .... More whispering lobha? So often we are concerned about results of kamma and what will happen to *ME*, forgetting there is no me and attachment to results won’t help at all. ... >Something would have to be - if we had to experience the > result of every thought word and deed there could be no liberation. .... Just speculations, I think, instead of developing understanding at this moment;-) Look forward to any further comments or discussion topics with more whispering lobha again (even if you disagree with anything here). As you said to me, we don’t have to agree with A.Sujin or anyone else on any topic. We can read and consider the teachings and find out for ourselves what is right. Metta, Sarah p.s Htoo and Suan, we thought of you both and any other Burmese members whilst travelling in your home country. ===== 26570 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 11:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Karuna (compassion) for comment Dear RobM. Like the others, I think you gave many excellent reminders about karuna (compassion). However, I marked a longer list of comments for further consideration to add to Nina’s point. I hope it doesn't seem petty to add them: 1. Yes, we read in the Vism about the function of compassion as ‘not bearing others’ suffering’. I don’t know the Pali for ‘bearing’, but we need to consider the meaning as so easily we might read it to suggest a ‘can’t stand’ or other kind of aversion. 2. You mention karuna ‘strengthens us to be better able to face suffering’. Interesting. Do you have a reference. Expectations creep in again as I read this. 3. The role of the other brahma viharas - eg ‘sympathetic joy develops compassion into active sympathy’ and ‘relieves the tension of mind and keeps compassion away from melancholic brooding’ etc. These comments don’t seem right to me as they seem to be mixing different mental factors. 4.Wishing for the person’s suffering to be reduced - of course can be with compassion, but usually with attachment I find. So differentiating wholesome and unwholesome mental states by feelings is not very satisfactory. I agree that we can say that when there is unpleasant feeling it cannot be compassion. ‘His thoughts, words and deeds are full of pity’. Again only panna will know whether there is any compassion at such a time. Same with ‘trembling of the heart’. For me, at such times, it would not be an indication of compassion which is light and free of trembles, I think. 5. Delaying happiness. Difficult. I think it’s one thing to refer to Sumedha, a Bodhisatta, for whom there were conditions to develop the parami and become enlightened. Another thing to suggest that there can be any choice, control or delay of certain states for us at this moment. Again, we have to read all the texts in the light of anatta and no free-choice;-) 6. I see we’re back to ‘radiating’ karuna and karuna meditation. We had some ‘radiating’ and zapping discussions on the trip - I’d like Shakti to add more when she has a chance. So easily, I think, an idea of self, selection or wish to develp wholesome states such as compassion, creeps in. No detachment at these times. I hope I haven’t given too many comments. Metta, Sarah p.s I liked slides 41-43 ================ 26571 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 0:23am Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi Victor (& Nori), After I included the extract from Htoo’s post, I remembered you gave a link to the following very helpful sutta about craving which also elaborates on the 108 kinds as enumerated in the various texts: --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > I see the desires that you mentioned as craving/tanha, particularly > in terms of "May I be like this", "May I be otherwise", "I will be > like this", "I will be otherwise", or other craving-verbalizations > as enumerated by the Buddha in > Anguttara Nikaya IV.199 > Tanha Sutta > Craving > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-199.html .... "Monks, I will teach you craving: the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds,.....” The PTS translation mentions the Pali words for ensnares and so on as describing a fisherman’s circular cast-net....... Yes, caught by tanha at every turn. The true cause of suffering including the ‘eighteen thoughts which are haunted by craving concerning the inner self” such as those you refer to. Thank you for this. I think, as Jon would say, we had some unfinished business from before our trip, but hopefully KenH or others took good care of it for me;-) If not, I’d be glad if you’d raise any points again. I was glad to read all your helpful posts and sutta quotes in our absence. Metta, Sarah ===== 26572 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bouncing Messages Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hey! Maybe Yahoo is telling me I should meditate more and post > less. ... Oh, no - I’m sure Yahoo likes your messages.....If you need any help, let Jon or I know - we can always f/w your messages for the time being if needed. In Myanmar we had to find a devious way to read posts given the ban on Yahoo there - we used Betty’s non-yahoo list which gets posts in digest form and printed out from there after wading through all her accumulated spam;-) Betty, remember to let us know if you need help in starting another account too. Howard, we were also having a discussion about thinking, thoughts and concepts before the trip. I think it was all clarified and as Robert K said, better not to confuse pa~n~natti (concepts) with mental factors such as vitakka, sometimes translated as thought. The latter,cetesikas (mental factors), are certainly included in sankhara khandha, but not the former. Pls let me know if there was anything else to clarify. I appreciated your posts and these were important points. Metta, Sarah p.s How’s your mother-in-law? As K.Sujin would say, you know what to do best. Meanwhile any understanding developed can help a lot. ============================================ 26573 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re: guarding the senses Hi James, I also appreciated your posts to Philip and the other children. I mentioned to a friend in Thailand that you were considering visiting Hong Kong and she wondered if you might consider visiting Bangkok when others are there as well. ..... --- buddhatrue wrote: > You have never heard or read the term "Extra Sensory Perception", > ESP? That is very surprising. Yes, it contains intuition, but can > involve many other `extra' perceptions as well; they are perceptions > in addition to sight, hearing, taste, touch, and smell. The Buddha > spoke of it in some suttas. ..... I'd be interested in looking at any sutta you have in mind on this subject. I know your original qu was rhetorical, so never mind if you'd prefer not. Metta, Sarah ====== 26574 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:13am Subject: What did Buddha accomplish? What did Buddha accomplish? What does an arahant accomplish? What is the goal of Buddhism? Thanks / Antony. 26575 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:19am Subject: Pigs eating dung Hello Sukin, Sarah, Jon, Azita, Shakti, Sandra, and All, Sukin :-) - I was thinking over when we went to the Kuthodaw Temple where the Tipitaka is carved on 729 marble slabs, each in its separate Jedi, arranged in rows according 'Baskets'. I remember sitting with you, Sarah, Azita, Shakti and Sandra - Jon had gone to the Thai discussions - we were tired (and one of us was a little grumpy), as we continued a discussion on inherently undesirable objects. I think it had something to do with pigs eating dung and finding nothing objectionable in it, whereas a human probably would. And that the desireableness or otherwise lay not in the object itself but in the perception of the eater. I think you (?) mentioned perversion of perception. [or am I right off the track?] Anyway, I remember you and I had widely differing views, and that you went to the Thai discussion and posited a question on this topic to K. Sujin. I think the gist of K. Sujins' reply was that we were both a little bit right, but the truth lay in the middle. Can you, or anyone, recall this topic in any more detail than I can? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26576 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:30am Subject: delayed reply to TG Hi TG, I think I also owe you a reply, but am having trouble finding some pre-trip mail and also remembering what I replied to already;-) I know you raised a section from part of MN43, Mahaavedalla Sutta, Q& A, particularly the part about 'conjoined states'. I wrote about this before in a discussion with Frank: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m16856.html Briefly, as universal factors, feeling and perception always arise with a citta, but this doesn’t mean their characteristics can’t be known separately when they appear. When a citta arises, together with its accompanying mental factors, it experiences or cognizes a nama, a rupa or a concept. The cittas, the mental factors, the rupas are real and arise and fall away. The concepts (pa~n~natti) do not. I think Htoo set this out very clearly in an earlier post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m21450.html You raised other points and I’d be glad if you’d repost any that I haven’t addressed or which still suggest to you that concepts should be included in sankhara khandha. (As I just mentioned to Howard, ‘thoughts’ can often refer to the mental factors of vitakka and vicara rather than to concepts in translations. Also, the way Thanissaro uses ‘ideas’ can be very misleading too imho, not always referring to concepts by any means.) Metta, Sarah p.s As RobM would say, pls let me know anyone else if there are posts waiting for replies as I'm slowly catching up;-) ===== 26577 From: sue Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] guarding the senses Sarah wrote "Sometimes we may have the idea that by thinking and thinking, some issues can be resolved, but this is never so. Painful memories and experiences can only be ‘resolved’ by developing awareness and understanding of the present reality whether it be thinking, unpleasant feeling, seeing or hearing. We can never know or understand all the complex conditions which led to certain ‘events’ or realities in the past (or the present for that matter). Better to just let them go (but of course, without any idea of ‘self’ that can ‘let go’), rather than cling to past memories, even the unpleasant ones. As we’ve discussed so many times, the past has gone, the future not yet come - only the present namas and rupas can be known. " Although the above words are very wise, I have a difficulty with one particular memory. My son committed suicide at the age of 28. I do think of him every day even though it is painful. In addition, I light candles and say prayers for him on each anniversary of the day he died. I will do the same this year on 9th November. I realise that this is a form of attachment on my part and one should try to free oneself from attachments, but this seems impossible for me in this case. Any comments anyone may have would be much appreciated. Metta Sue 26578 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] guarding the senses Dear Sue, This is the sort of event where you might feel like blaming yourself: could you have brought him up better etc. etc. But the Buddha said that all beings are owners of their kamma, heirs to their kamma. Parents are people who introduce chidren to the world but it is still up to the child to live their own life. All of us here must have committed suicide during many lives because of the length of samasara. Even some beings who were close to becoming arahant did so in the Buddha's time. I think it is fine to light candles in memory of your son. Memories are not meant to be suppressed but rather seen as they are. The memory of your son is only that, a concept. At the time of thinking of him there are many realities, such as feeling, or lobha, attachment. As Victor said over time you can notice how the feelings arising at the time of taking son as object change. In the first few months they were no doubt very painful, later they become merely unplessant and one day they will neutral. One might even have plesant feeling if at the same time there is insight into the difference between concept and reality. It will really be like that. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sue wrote: > Sarah wrote > "Som > matter). Better to just let them go (but of course, without any idea of > `self' that can `let go'), rather than cling to past memories, even the > unpleasant ones. As we've discussed so many times, the past has gone, > the > future not yet come - only the present namas and rupas can be known. " > > Although the above words are very wise, I have a difficulty with one particular memory. My son committed suicide at the age of 28. I do think of him every day even though it is painful. In addition, I light candles and say prayers for him on each anniversary of the day he died. > > I will do the same this year on 9th November. I realise that this is a form of attachment on my part and one should try to free oneself from attachments, but this seems impossible for me in this case. > > Any comments anyone may have would be much appreciated. > > Metta > > 26579 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 5:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] guarding the senses Dear Sue, I only have time to add a little now, I hope others will add more. --- sue wrote: > Although the above words are very wise, I have a difficulty with one > particular memory. My son committed suicide at the age of 28. I do > think of him every day even though it is painful. In addition, I light > candles and say prayers for him on each anniversary of the day he died. .... Thank you for sharing this with us. I know it won’t have been easy. If it’s any comfort to know, there are other members here who have lost familiy members in the same way - one a sister and one a daughter as I recall. You are bound to think about him. My father died in unhappy circumstances and I’d wake up in tears night after night by conditions, having terrible nightmares. But they passed. Others have lost partners or spouses too. ..... > I will do the same this year on 9th November. I realise that this is a > form of attachment on my part and one should try to free oneself from > attachments, but this seems impossible for me in this case. > > Any comments anyone may have would be much appreciated. .... I don’t think you need to set yourself any ‘rule’. If you like to spend his anniversary in this way, I think you should. The aim is not ‘to try to free oneself from attachments’, but to understand attachment and other phenomena when they arise, no matter how we grieve or spend our time. I can understand it may be comforting for you to have a little ceremony in this way. I found it comforting to visit my father’s grave a couple of years or so ago and speak out some appreciation for his good qualities which I’d not been able to do when he passed away. As I mentioned to another friend, over aeons in samsara, this tragic event is just a taste of the deep grief we have experenced so many, many times. It doesn’t necessarily help at the time, but in the end, the only way to overcome such grief is by understanding all realities as conditioned and not-self. I’ll think of you on the 9th, Sue. Please don’t think that you should be free of attachments. We’re only beginners on the path....Thank you again for sharing. Please add more if it's helpful. Metta, Sarah ====== 26580 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Worrying about others (and oneself) Dear Sarah, Jon, Chris, Sukin, Azita, Betty and all the tour group members on the Myanmar Trip How are you? And welcome back. Sarah wrote: "Htoo and Suan, we thought of you both and any other Burmese members whilst travelling in your home country." Thank you for your kind thoughts while I envied you all. I have been outside Myanmar more than two decades. I still haven't planned for a visit to it. I could have one month visa, but, if I do visit at all, I would like to have a visa with a longer permit. I even made inquiry recently at the Myanmar Embassy about the possibility of applying for Myanmar citizenship without losing my Aussi citizenship. I was told that dual citizenship was unavailable for the time being. So I am looking forward to hearing more news trickling down from the visitors to Myanmar like you and others. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine (& Htoo), > > I'll try not to be too frivolous this time - Htoo and Suan, we thought of you both and any other Burmese members whilst travelling in your home country. ===== 26581 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 5:48am Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi Sarah and Howard Could we just put a simple word for this - Right Effort with Right Mindfulness Kind rgds Ken O --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > In a message dated 10/29/03 5:29:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, > sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi again, James - > > > > > > I had defined guarding the senses as basically a combination > of > > >mindfulness with vigilance. To clarify, what I'm talking about > is a > > >mindful > > >vigilance to avoid being swept away by the current of > experience, much > > >as a sentinal > > >at the gates of a city is watchful for attacks to which the city > may be > > >vulnerable. I hope this captures the sense I'm trying to convey. > > ..... > > So doesn't guarding the senses refer to mindfulness of seeing and > visible > > object, hearing and sound and so on for the other sense doors so > that at > > those moments, these namas and rupas are not followed by clinging > to the > > details and ideas about these? > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes. Simple mindfulness is most of it. But that doesn't > quite fully > describe the matter. There must be an ongoing, repeated intention > to be aware > and not allow being swept away. This is where the vigilance seems > to come in. > Intention, intention, and yet more intention is important in this. > The thing is: > At the moment a sight, sound, odor, taste, bodily sensation, or > mind-door > object enters awareness, it it *too late* to first exercise > mindfulness and > reactive "control" - it will be automatic (already determined) at > that point. There > must be prior heightened attention and intention (with high energy > - viriya), > a sharp readiness, and this must occur repeatedly, so that when it > is time > for appropriate response and avoiding of harmful response, the > necessary > conditions are already in place. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > As you suggest, at those moments of> > > mindfulness, there is vigilance already. No self to do anything! > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Never a self to do anything - not at the moment of arising > at a sense > door, nor in advance of that. No self doing anything at all, but > the doing > occurring none the less. > ----------------------------------------------------- > I like> > > the analogy of the sentinal at the city gates. > > > > Good to read your discussions with Ken H in our absence;-) > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > > =============================== > With metta, > Howard > 26582 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 6:40am Subject: Re: guarding the senses Dear Sue, Sarah, Robert K and all How are you? Sue, I agree with what Sarah and Robert wrote on the issue. I will add something for you to try out if it works to reduce the pain in memory of your son's death. The mind has two modes roughly. One is the processing mode while the other is the resting mode. Please pay your attention to the resting mode for our purpose under consideration. The resting mode of the mind occurs between its processing modes in waking periods. The resting mode also occurs in deep sleep, in coma, in rebirth and in dying. Put it another way, the deep sleep, the coma, the rebirth and the death are the resting modes of the mind. The implication of the above statement is that, from the perspective of the Buddha's teachings on the nature of mind, we die whenever the resting modes of the mind occur - while awake or while asleep. You may find it difficult to detect the resting modes of the mind while awake. So please direct your attention to your nightly deep sleep - the unavoidable fact of life. The deep sleep and the death are the same type of mind as far as the Buddha's teachings on the nature of mind are concerned. By contemplating our own regular temporary death while awake and while asleep, our attitude towards commonly-understood death will change. This change of attitude towards death will become handy in managing your grief in memory of the death of your son. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sue wrote: > Sarah wrote > "Sometimes we may have the idea that by thinking and thinking, some > issues > can be resolved, but this is never so. Painful memories and experiences > > > I will do the same this year on 9th November. I realise that this is a form of attachment on my part and one should try to free oneself from attachments, but this seems impossible for me in this case. > > Any comments anyone may have would be much appreciated. > > Metta > > Sue > --------------------------------- > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger > > 26583 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 6:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi Victor The sutta did not mention how does one attain internal tranquility. Could you kindly quote reference to this attain of internal tranquility? Is it meditation? If it is, could you substantiate this claim with other suttas. Kind rgds Ken O > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > > > Thank you for your reply. It seems to me that you got the idea > from > > the commentary, not from what the Buddha taught as recorded in > the > > Pali Canon. > > > > Let me refer to this discourse in which the Buddha clearly talked > > > about what one should do regarding attaining internal > tranquillity > > of awareness and insight into phenomena through heightened > > discernment. > > > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 > > Samadhi Sutta > > Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-094.html > > > > No where in this discourse, or in any other discourse that I've > come > > across indicates that the Buddha taught insight and tranquillity > > discriminatively based on one's faculties such that he taught > > insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties. > > > > Your comments are appreciated. > > > > Peace, > > Victor > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" > > wrote: > > [snip] 26584 From: Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bouncing Messages Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/3/03 4:04:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Hey! Maybe Yahoo is telling me I should meditate more and post > >less. > ... > Oh, no - I’m sure Yahoo likes your messages.....If you need any help, let > Jon or I know - we can always f/w your messages for the time being if > needed. In Myanmar we had to find a devious way to read posts given the > ban on Yahoo there - we used Betty’s non-yahoo list which gets posts in > digest form and printed out from there after wading through all her > accumulated spam;-) Betty, remember to let us know if you need help in > starting another account too. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Sarah. The problem has now been apparently corrected. ---------------------------------------------- > > Howard, we were also having a discussion about thinking, thoughts and > concepts before the trip. I think it was all clarified and as Robert K > said, better not to confuse pa~n~natti (concepts) with mental factors such > as vitakka, sometimes translated as thought. The latter,cetesikas (mental > factors), are certainly included in sankhara khandha, but not the former. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. I don't conflate the two. By 'concepts' and 'thoughts' and 'ideas' I do mean certain cetasikas, and by pa~n~natti, I mean their intended referents, never actually arising or ceasing, even in the case of something such as the pa~n~natti called 'hardness', an imagined, but not-actually-observed substitute for observed hardness. ------------------------------------------------------- > > Pls let me know if there was anything else to clarify. I appreciated your > posts and these were important points. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s How’s your mother-in-law? As K.Sujin would say, you know what to do > best. Meanwhile any understanding developed can help a lot. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It remains critical, with little hope. There is the slim posibility of a new medication, if received in time, doing something. We'll see. It's a tough time .. sleeping with the phone on, waiting for a not very good call. Constant reminders of the Buddha's teachings help. ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26585 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] guarding the senses Hi Sue Mine is slightly different - my sister commit siucide also and she is very close to me. It take a long time to grief over it. To me I was quite traumatised by this event. You have practise Buddhism to overcome grief and I encourage you to continue to exhort yourself doing it. To me there is no another better antidote of solving the suffering of the dissociation of a love one. I have to admit it is extremely hard to do. But don't give up, exhort yourself and one day you will overcome it. Have faith in the teachings and just be mindful of this painful feeling as it comes. Mindful of feelings as impermanent, as clinging object leading to more suffering. It has help me overcome a few grief I have experience in my life. Honestly, in some ways I have still griefing but now as I look back, it is manageable. No matter what, as I said again, exhort yourself, if fall down, come up again and again. I believe one day you will win. One day you will look back this incident as a passing moment of your life, more importantly as a source of strength in your understanding of the way. Kind rgds Ken O --- sue wrote: > Sarah wrote > "Sometimes we may have the idea that by thinking and thinking, some > > issues > can be resolved, but this is never so. Painful memories and > experiences > can only be ‘resolved’ by developing awareness and understanding of > the > present reality whether it be thinking, unpleasant feeling, seeing > or > hearing. We can never know or understand all the complex conditions > > which > led to certain ‘events’ or realities in the past (or the present > for > that > matter). Better to just let them go (but of course, without any > idea of > ‘self’ that can ‘let go’), rather than cling to past memories, even > the > unpleasant ones. As we’ve discussed so many times, the past has > gone, > the > future not yet come - only the present namas and rupas can be > known. " > > Although the above words are very wise, I have a difficulty with > one particular memory. My son committed suicide at the age of 28. > I do think of him every day even though it is painful. In > addition, I light candles and say prayers for him on each > anniversary of the day he died. > > I will do the same this year on 9th November. I realise that this > is a form of attachment on my part and one should try to free > oneself from attachments, but this seems impossible for me in this > case. > > Any comments anyone may have would be much appreciated. > > Metta > > Sue > > 26586 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 7:43am Subject: Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > On the trip some of us found kamma and vipaka coming to attention > more than usual. In discussion with dhamma friends, > I was told vipaka is just a moment, not the whole story. Maybe > vipaka is all the moments that make up the story, a million vipakas > quite unrelated, and it is *self* that does the weaving of it into a > narrative - my story, this is happening to me? > If a part of each moment is vipaka (result), that would mean that > everything that comes in through each of the sense doors is vipaka > (result). (The length of samsara backwards and forwards for this to > be so is a little overwhelming, don't you think?) ===== I agree with the sentiment that vipaka is "just a moment", not the "whole story". Vipaka is the maturing of some past seed (a seed planted by a past volitional action). However, if we consider that in each citta process there are seven javana cittas producing kamma (one will only mature in this existence, one will only mature in the subsequent existence, the remaining five can mature any time after the subsequent existence), it is clear that past seeds build up as we travel through samsara. After so many existences, there are an uncountable number of past seeds ready to mature at any instant. Which one matures at this particular instant? There are many other factors which act as conditions. The 24 conditions of the Patthana cover mind as a condition for mind, mind as a condition for mind/matter, mind as a condition for matter, matter as a condition for mind, concepts/mind/matter as a condition for mind and mind/matter as a condition for mind/matter. Please note that the 24 conditions do not cover matter as a condition for matter; these would include all the laws of physics/chemistry/biology, etc. The Buddha intentionally excluded these from his "radar screen" because his stated purpose was to talk of things conducive to the holy life and things leading to Nibbana. The Buddha also made it clear that the detailed workings of kamma were an "unknowable". So far, I have only talked about the "front end" of the citta process; that which happens to us. This is where vipaka plays a role. The determining citta in the sense door citta process or mind door adverting citta in the mind door citta process is the point at which the flow of the mind is controlled to a kusala / akusala direction. This citta is functional citta, not a vipaka citta. The determinination of the direction of flow of the mind is conditioned largely by accumulations (this is why I consider accumulations to be so important - they are what steers the mental process). Of course, once the determining citta / mind door adverting citta sets the direction, the javana cittas arise and create future kamma. In brief, vipaka is not all of the moments; vipaka is one of the many conditions which cause what happens to us to arise. Our reactions and our emotions are not vipaka, they are javana. ===== > > I have two stories, find the vipaka: > 1. "Don't trust your friends at dinner-time" > One evening, I tasted a dish that I thought included a square piece > of red dessert jelly. It tasted a little strong, a little savoury, a > little strange. I mentioned this to K. Betty who had been > interestedly watching. She said (with a smile) - 'it's coagulated > pigs' blood'. Azita was most helpful then, covering the choking > sounds, by having a nurses' discussion about the use of pigs' > arteries in heart surgery. (No Azita! not helpful!) > (experiencing the taste, wondering, enquiring, hearing the answer - -> > feeling aversion, feeling aversion, feeling aversion) ===== In a simplistic fashion (I am not going to even try to understand the detailed working of kamma), you chose to go on that trip (that was an action). The result of that action of deciding to go was that you were with the group at that dinner. There were a number of other actions that you took as well that also conditioned you being at that dinner. You being at that dinner was vipaka of those decisions. Your eye was drawn to the "square piece of red desert jelly"; this may have been natural decisive support condition (i.e. accumulation) at work. You were hungry; this is another condition at work that would not be included in the patthana. All of these conditions (vipaka - being at the dinner, natural decisive support - attracted to red desert jelly, hungry) caused you to put the stuff in your mouth. There was attachment to taste followed by a craving to classify the taste. These cravings were condition for you to ask what it was (speech intimation). When the reply came, you organized the sounds into words; you then passed a judgement on the concept (i.e. yuck!) and mental proliferation took over. You (or others) could easily pick apart my analysis and come up with another equally plausable explanation; the main message remains the same - lots of conditions interacting in a complex manner. The objective of this analysis is not to determine the specific set of conditions at work (this is virtually impossible), but to understand that everything is arising because of conditions, not because of a "self". I am going to skip the second scenario that could be analyzed in a similar fashion. ===== > I understand, after reading discussion considering, that 'feeling' is > a condition for 'craving', and craving is viewed as the root of the > Round, - what can be done about 'feeling' which just seems to flare > up? ===== "Feeling" arises at all moments; but we need to specific about what is meant by "feeling". This is the cetasika vedana; it can be one of five types: - Pleasant bodily feeling - Unpleasant bodily feeling - Pleasant mental feeling - Unpleasant mental feeling - Indifferent mental feeling One cannot eliminate "feeling". According to dependent origination, feeling causes craving (tanha) to arise. But tanha needs more than just feeling to arise, it also needs ignorance and accumulations. When you say "feeling which just seems to flare up", I think you are talking about emotions (javana), not "feeling" in an Abhidhamma sense. The best remedy to this is mindfulness; wise attention, seeing things as they truly are. When we view beings as simply heirs to their kamma, we can avoid approval / resentment and cultivate equanimity. ===== > It was also said that the point of learning about Dhamma is to > get in a positon not to create new kamma and vipaka, to lessen the > strength of the kilesas (defilements). How do you do that when there > is no 'we' to have a choice? ===== Excellent question. There is clearly a "choice" made at every instant; there are multiple possible paths for our mind to flow, but our mind flows along one specific path, so a "choice is made". There is no "self" to make a choice, but choice is made according to natural laws. Here is an analogy; imagine that a ball is placed on the top of a pile of gravel. We release the ball and because of the law of gravity, the ball makes its way down the pile of gravel. At each moment, there is a choice as to which way the ball will proceed. At a micro-level, we know that the path of the ball is determined by the laws of physics (there is no God guiding the ball's path). How do we influence the path of the ball to go in a selected direction? The best way would be to form a small gully in the gravel. This gully corresponds to our accumulations. The ball still moves according to the laws of nature, but our gully is increasing the chance that the ball will end up where we want it. If habits are nurtured, accumulations and affinities are formed and this is how we "steer our mental processes". It will happen automatically and naturally. Assuming that we spend time radiating metta (or doing some other forms of meditation), every morning, this will create gullies and will cause us to be happier / more likely to see things as they truly are. BTW, a recent experiment at UofWisconsin recently illustrated this phenomena; meditation training had a measurable long term and positive impact on the brain functions, even weeks after the meditation classes were stopped. Metta, Rob M :-) 26587 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 7:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Karuna (compassion) for comment Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > We should develop the skill of > > compassion before trying to realize the first noble truth; > > otherwise, we may be overwhelmed. Compassion means having our hearts > > engaged, not overwhelmed or broken. > N: It all depends on conditions what will be developed at which moment, I do > not think of a certain order. When understanding of nama and rupa is being > developed, eventually dukkha and the other noble Truths will be realized. > And also: it will be known more clearly when there is compassion and when > aversion. When there is right understanding we will not be overwhelmed, or > if we are, these moments will be known. At the moment of panna there is no > aversion. This piece was an amalgamation of may different authors, so there were some "Nina comments" (you may have recognized some of them), there were some "Susan Salzberg comments", there were some "Mahasi Sayadaw comments" etc. There were also a few "Rob comments" as I tried to create some linkages. Not surprisingly, the sentence that you took exception to was a "Rob comment" :-) I see your point that we each have our own accumulations and there is no ONE correct order. I am going to weaken the sentence with, "Many people feel the need to ..." so that it does not sound so absolute. Metta, Rob M :-) 26588 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 8:30am Subject: Re: What did Buddha accomplish? Dear Anthony, Answer for question one : As Bodhisatta when He was Hermit Sumeda, He did have enough Parami to get through the Samsara. But as boundless Karuna arose, He decided to endeavour to fulfil 30 Paramattha Parami so that He finally became Sammasambuddha. In His last life He attained Arahatta Magga along with Sabbannuta Nana at His 35. He had been preaching Dhamma until He did Parinibbana. He helped out countless Sattas from their Samsara. Even though He did Parinibbana The Dhamma still exists as His disciples and Sangha maintain it to the purest form. As long as The Dhamma preached by The Buddha is there, His accomplishment will be still going on. Answer to the second question : An Arahat accomplishes eradicating all defilements at Arahatta Magga. So he no more has Akusala Cetasikas. All he is doing is based on Avyakata Hetuka Dhamma. This means that all his actions are Kamma- less. Answer to the third question : The goal of Buddhists is to get through Samsara. This means that to attain Arahatta Magga. This again means that to experience a state called Nibbana when they are still alive and to be in the state of Nibbana when their body cease to function any more. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > What did Buddha accomplish? > What does an arahant accomplish? > What is the goal of Buddhism? > > Thanks / Antony. > 26589 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 8:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Karuna (compassion) for comment Hi Sarah, Welcome back! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > 1. Yes, we read in the Vism about the function of compassion as `not > bearing others' suffering'. I don't know the Pali for `bearing', but we > need to consider the meaning as so easily we might read it to suggest a > `can't stand' or other kind of aversion. ===== I thought about the phrase, "not bearing" and I felt it was the best alternative; suggests "trembling heart" and is not too suggestive of aversion. Do you have an alternative phrase? ===== > 2. You mention karuna `strengthens us to be better able to face > suffering'. Interesting. Do you have a reference. Expectations creep in > again as I read this. ===== I think that this was a Susan Salzberg quote. I think I will change it to "see suffering as it truly is". Of course, this type of mindfulness will help us cope when suffering arises in us or others. ===== > 3. The role of the other brahma viharas - eg `sympathetic joy develops > compassion into active sympathy' and `relieves the tension of mind and > keeps compassion away from melancholic brooding' etc. These comments don't > seem right to me as they seem to be mixing different mental factors. ===== This is taken from Ven. Nyanaponika Thera. Obviously, one cannot have the four brahamaviharas in the same citta. However, the point here is that balancing your practice so that there are accumulations for all four is a good idea. The same is true of the spiritual faculties; one must develop all five (faith, energy, concentration, mindfulness and wisdom) so that the accumulations become mutually- supporting. ===== > > 4.Wishing for the person's suffering to be reduced - of course can be with > compassion, but usually with attachment I find. ===== I see "wishing for a person's suffering to be reduced" as the definition of compassion. "It would be better for me if they got better..." is definitely lobha-mula, but if the thought is clearly with the other person as object, "I want their suffering to be reduced...", then it is compassion. ===== > So differentiating > wholesome and unwholesome mental states by feelings is not very > satisfactory. I agree that we can say that when there is unpleasant > feeling it cannot be compassion. `His thoughts, words and deeds are full > of pity'. Again only panna will know whether there is any compassion at > such a time. ===== I am suggesting using feelings to determine compassion or not so that one can avoid being fooled by the near enemy, aversion. From my experience, aversion tends to push compassion aside a lot more easily than lobha-mula cittas do. When I recognize lobha-mula cittas at times that I feel it is appropriate to have compassion, I feel like a hypocrite - "Here they are suffering, and all I can think about is myself!" On the other hand, when I should be feeling compassion, righteous indignation about "how unfair it is" often creeps in and stays around for a while (mentally proliferates). ===== > Same with `trembling of the heart'. For me, at such times, it > would not be an indication of compassion which is light and free of > trembles, I think. > > 5. Delaying happiness. Difficult. I think it's one thing to refer to > Sumedha, a Bodhisatta, for whom there were conditions to develop the > parami and become enlightened. Another thing to suggest that there can be > any choice, control or delay of certain states for us at this moment. > Again, we have to read all the texts in the light of anatta and no > free-choice;-) Mahasi Sayadaw uses "trebling of the heart" as part of the definition of compassion. Mahasi Sayadaw uses "delaying of hapiness" (kam sukham rundhatiti = karuna) as a definition of compassion. ===== > 6. I see we're back to `radiating' karuna and karuna meditation. We had > some `radiating' and zapping discussions on the trip - I'd like Shakti to > add more when she has a chance. So easily, I think, an idea of self, > selection or wish to develp wholesome states such as compassion, creeps > in. No detachment at these times. ===== My view on radiating is that the benefit goes to the being doing the radiating, not the being that is radiated to. The benefit is the developing an accumulation through nuturing a habit. Metta, Rob M :-) 26590 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 9:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Chrisitine, Isn't practising the way and reading suttas is "choice". So how could we say that there is no choice at all. However, in fact it is the kusala condition or our need to attain nibbana or the fear of suffering condition our urge to do this "choice" in the first place. Just like the choice to eat more good food, is conditioned by akusala conditions. All are just condition "conditioning" our next condition. Sounds mechanic and also sounds like we have no control - scary idea isn't it. It isn't. In fact this is very helpful bc kusala conditions will condition more kusala ones. Isn't it nice :) Kind rgds Ken O > > ===== > > > It was also said that the point of learning about Dhamma is to > > get in a positon not to create new kamma and vipaka, to lessen > the > > strength of the kilesas (defilements). How do you do that when > there > > is no 'we' to have a choice? > > ===== > > Excellent question. There is clearly a "choice" made at every > instant; there are multiple possible paths for our mind to flow, > but > our mind flows along one specific path, so a "choice is made". > There > is no "self" to make a choice, but choice is made according to > natural laws. Here is an analogy; imagine that a ball is placed on > the top of a pile of gravel. We release the ball and because of the > > law of gravity, the ball makes its way down the pile of gravel. At > each moment, there is a choice as to which way the ball will > proceed. At a micro-level, we know that the path of the ball is > determined by the laws of physics (there is no God guiding the > ball's path). > > How do we influence the path of the ball to go in a selected > direction? The best way would be to form a small gully in the > gravel. This gully corresponds to our accumulations. The ball still > > moves according to the laws of nature, but our gully is increasing > the chance that the ball will end up where we want it. > > If habits are nurtured, accumulations and affinities are formed and > > this is how we "steer our mental processes". It will happen > automatically and naturally. Assuming that we spend time radiating > metta (or doing some other forms of meditation), every morning, > this > will create gullies and will cause us to be happier / more likely > to > see things as they truly are. BTW, a recent experiment at > UofWisconsin recently illustrated this phenomena; meditation > training had a measurable long term and positive impact on the > brain > functions, even weeks after the meditation classes were stopped. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 26591 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi Larry, op 02-11-2003 20:11 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Perhaps we could say consciousness gives the impression that a > person comes and goes with the same mind because of the unchanging > nature of consciousness itself, while what changes is the object of > consciousness and the mental body (feeling, perception, volitional > formations). N: Also citta changes each moment, seeing is not the same as the following citta, another vipakacitta, receiving-consciousness which receives the visible object. Nina. 26592 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 11:12am Subject: Re: re: guarding the senses Hi Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > I also appreciated your posts to Philip and the other children. I > mentioned to a friend in Thailand that you were considering visiting Hong > Kong and she wondered if you might consider visiting Bangkok when others > are there as well. James: Could be, actually I am seriously considering moving to Thailand to teach after a year here in Cairo. A year in Cairo is probably enough for anyone! ;-). Taiwan is a strong possibility also. Either way I could easily travel to Bangkok and Hong Kong. I am finding that traveling anywhere other than the Middle East from Cairo is problematic and expensive. Don't count on me coming to Hong Kong this year. From what I am reading, it sounds like your get- togethers in Bangkok are a real hoot! I may not agree with everything you discuss, but I like a good adventure! ;-) > ..... > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > You have never heard or read the term "Extra Sensory Perception", > > ESP? That is very surprising. Yes, it contains intuition, but can > > involve many other `extra' perceptions as well; they are perceptions > > in addition to sight, hearing, taste, touch, and smell. The Buddha > > spoke of it in some suttas. > ..... > I'd be interested in looking at any sutta you have in mind on this > subject. I know your original qu was rhetorical, so never mind if you'd > prefer not. James: It doesn't matter what I prefer, you can look at whatever sutta you want. You don't need to ask my permission ;-))). Seriously, I don't have just one sutta in mind, there are several suttas about this subject scattered throughout the Sutta Pitaka. I am surprised that you and Nina are not familiar with them. Granted, those who are more oriented toward discussions of nama/rupa AKA `Present Realities' are not going to be interested in such suttas. Frankly, they detail matters that turn the Abhidhamma on its ear. However, as a good starter for you, you can read this article about the monk Maha-Moggallana: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel263.html Maha-Moggallana, a contemporary of the Buddha, had more psychic powers than anyone else in the sangha. He had the powers of: telepathy, clair-audience, clairvoyance, second sight, visions, astral travel, and telekinesis. I am not going to discuss what psychic abilities I have because it isn't important (I have written to you about them off-list so you are aware anyway). The only reason I brought this subject up is because having psychic ability makes the whole process of `guarding the senses' that much more difficult. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Metta, James 26593 From: Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:07pm Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/3/2003 8:48:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Sarah and Howard > > Could we just put a simple word for this - Right Effort > with Right > Mindfulness > > Kind rgds > Ken O ========================== Not bad, Ken. :-) If that's not all of it, it's certainly most of it! With metta, Howard 26594 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Victor, ----------- V: > I would suggest abandoning the line of inquiry in your message. -------------- The line of inquiry "is there a self; is there not a self" is abandoned when it becomes redundant. When we accept there is only nama and rupa (the five khandhas and nibbana), we are no longer caught up in questions of self. However, you, Victor, have not accepted (not even at the intellectual level), that there is only nama and rupa. You have accepted that nama and rupa are not self but you believe self is something else. So, in your case, this line of inquiry remains entirely valid. ------------------ V: > This line of inquiry is unskillful, connected with speculative reasoning, not connected with what the Buddha taught. ------------------ The Buddha taught that, while we worldlings are caught up in ideas of self, it is inevitable we will ask, "Is there a self; is there not a self." It is a sign of wrong view but it is not wrong view itself. That is to say, the elimination of wrong view is not brought about by the ritualistic avoidance of a line of inquiry. The Suttanta, the Abhidhamma, the Vinaya and the Commentaries -- taken separately or together -- make it perfectly clear that there is no self: There is no reality apart from the conditioned five khandhas and the unconditioned nibbana; all of which are anatta (not- self). To find this truth less painful and, ultimately, marvellous, simply study the absolute realities that were taught by the Buddha. Kind regards, Ken H > Hi Ken, > > I would suggest abandoning the line of inquiry in your message. > This line of inquiry is unskillful, connected with speculative > reasoning, not connected with what the Buddha taught. > > Peace, > Victor > > 26595 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] guarding the senses Hello Sue, (and KenO), Thank you for telling us of the completed suicide of your son. It is a hard thing to mention, and shows your growing trust in us. To have a child no matter what the age, who has suicided, is a very lonely grief to bear. They are supposed to outlive us, aren't they? Sometimes to hear from others who have experienced similar, though never identical, losses is a great comfort. Thank you KenO for speaking of the almost unspeakable pain you both deal with on a daily basis. As you are talking of anniversaries, I see that you have been enduring for some time now. That is a testament to your courage, strength and fortitude. Do whatever it takes to get through - there is no politically correct Buddhist way to deal with it. It is not possible to stop remembering. Lighting candles is something the human spirit recognises and gains comfort from at a deep level. It is a respectful and loving thing to do. I'm sure you will be aware of the various organisations who can be of support through the years, and of the literature available for reading and reflection. I mention a couple, in case anyone is unfamiliar with them. support: http://www.compassionatefriends.org/ literature: http://www.centering.org/ When you are able, now and then, here and there, read and reflect a little on the Buddha's words on attachment, separation and death. Sometimes they will seem too harsh, reality is often that way. But over time they will come to be seen as kinder and truer than the way of the world. There are many suttas - here are a few where the Buddha explains that attachment to loved ones is a cause of sorrow http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn42-011.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud8-08.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn087.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud2-07.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/therigatha/thig06. html#1 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sue > > Although the above words are very wise, I have a difficulty with one particular memory. My son committed suicide at the age of 28. I do think of him every day even though it is painful. In addition, I light candles and say prayers for him on each anniversary of the day he died. > > I will do the same this year on 9th November. I realise that this is a form of attachment on my part and one should try to free oneself from attachments, but this seems impossible for me in this case. > > Any comments anyone may have would be much appreciated. > > Metta > > Sue 26596 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 2:28pm Subject: Re: guarding the senses Although the above words are very wise, I have a difficulty with one particular memory. My son committed suicide at the age of 28. I do think of him every day even though it is painful. In addition, I light candles and say prayers for him on each anniversary of the day he died. > > I will do the same this year on 9th November. I realise that this is a form of attachment on my part and one should try to free oneself from attachments, but this seems impossible for me in this case. > > Any comments anyone may have would be much appreciated. > > Metta > > Sue Hi Sue, I could imagine that this is very tough for you; thank you for sharing. A part of you would like to stop lighting the candles and saying the prayers because that means that you have accomplished detachment, and with detachment will come an ending to the pain you feel. But another part of you doesn't want to stop because you feel it is your duty as a mother to forever mourn the loss of your child. I would imagine that you have many conflicting emotions. I think that everyone has given you some good advice. I don't think that I can really add much. However, I might suggest that you watch the movie, "Monster's Ball". When I read your post that movie came to my mind. Though on the surface the movie is about interracial relationships, I think the real theme is about two people who have to move forward with their lives after they both lose a child (one to suicide). Warning: it is a gritty and realistic movie, but it might prove to be something of a catharsis for you. Metta, James 26597 From: Larry Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 2:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi Jon and Howard, Howard, I think Jon and I are having a similar conversation about the nature of consciousness/experience. In other, non-Theravada traditions consciousness is likened to a crystal that takes on the characteristics of whatever it touches. A crystal on a piece of red cloth is colored red. In the same way, consciousness OF red is red consciousness and consciousness WITH anger is angry consciousness. This way of understanding consciousness makes sense to me and it seems to make sense out of the 121 kinds of consciousness, which otherwise are not different kinds of consciousness but different combinations of cetasikas and rupas. Using this model of the crystal I would call this consciousness subjectivity. The question remains, how to account for objectivity? Perhaps we could say the two cetasikas "view" (ditthi) and "mindfulness" each somehow engineer a point of view. We could call this experiential point of view objectivity. Obviously there are differences between the objectivity of view and the objectivity of mindfulness. Most notably, the "point of view" of view seems like self while the "point of view" of mindfulness doesn't. This way of understanding objectivity would also give a real, experiential manifestation to view instead of being merely opinion and belief (concept). I don't know if it is significant but this model would also mean that objectivity is a kind of subjectivity. Consciousness WITH mindfulness is mindful consciousness and the same for view. Comments? I'm particularly interested in how to account for the experience of objectivity, both wholesome and unwholesome, and whether you think this simile of the crystal will fly in Theravada. Larry 26598 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 3:04pm Subject: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration hi all, I know there is probably no chance of intelectualizing this in words but I'll throw it out there anyway. If there is no-self (soul), then what transmigrates? (I have a feeling I asked this before, if so, sorry.) one, nori 26599 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:06pm Subject: Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hi Nori, Where did you get the idea that there is no soul? The Buddha did not teach whether there is soul or not. Thinking along the line of "there is soul" or "there is no soul" is speculative, not connected with the Dhamma. Similar question such as "if there is no self, who gets reborn?" also starts with the assumption not connected with the Buddha's teaching. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hi all, > > I know there is probably no chance of intelectualizing this in words > but I'll throw it out there anyway. > > If there is no-self (soul), then what transmigrates? > > (I have a feeling I asked this before, if so, sorry.) > > > one, > nori 26600 From: Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi Nina, I'm not clear on this issue. In a previous discussion you and Rob explained that consciousness is just pure consciousness. I took this to mean that there is no difference between consciousness of light or consciousness of sound or consciousness with ignorance or consciousness with wisdom as far as the consciousness itself is concerned. Could you explain again what you mean by pure consciousness or pure awareness? If you don't think the sameness of consciousness accounts for the impression that the consciousness khandha gives that "a person comes and goes with the same mind", then how does consciousness give this impression? Larry ----------------------- Nina: Hi Larry, op 02-11-2003 20:11 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: Perhaps we could say consciousness gives the impression that a person comes and goes with the same mind because of the unchanging nature of consciousness itself, while what changes is the object of consciousness and the mental body (feeling, perception, volitional formations). N: Also citta changes each moment, seeing is not the same as the following citta, another vipakacitta, receiving-consciousness which receives the visible object. Nina. 26601 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have hi all, I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on having a wife and family? (uh-oh, shouldn't ask this on a Buddhist discussion group, right?) --- There is an old saying in America: "It is better to have loved, then to never have loved at all." ...but the Buddhist saying goes more like: "Beware of love, for love will bring you grief. It will bring fear of losing your love. It will bring one day separation from what is dear." --- cats- I remember in my parents home when our last cat died, we were very sad. We were really sad for a few days; kinda sad for weeks, but then we all eventually got over it. For we all knew that all things will one day die, even us. I think even most non-Buddhists (like my parents) are smart enough to figure that one out. However even though we were sad for a few weeks or more, it made our lives more full, fun, less lonely, entertaining and just happier overall. We (my family) had a total of three cats come and go (die, that is) lasting a span of 35 years and I think we made each others lives very fulfilling. While overall their deaths might have caused a few months of suffering in total, they brought a sort of fulfillment and happiness lasting a span of close to 35 years. When my parents last cat died my father was so sad he said "no more cats, this is the last cat." They had no cat for about a month or so and looked very sad the whole time, the house was quiet and seemed to be missing something. One day on my own accord, brought home a baby from a stray cat my friend had give birth in his home. It started jumping around all over the place and brought some light back into my parents faces. It still lives with my parents now (although now its big and fat) and continues to bring some sort of fulfillment and happiness into their lives. family- My friend has a grandmother living in his home with his family, she is 92. I asked my friend if she was happy and lived a happy life. He said that she seems very happy and likes playing with her grand kids. Her husband is long dead and I think some of her kids had died, but overall she seems happy. When I think about things like this, I wonder as a currently single person which is better? On one hand, having wife and family: it is sad when people die, or when good things go sour (but we eventually get over it). It is also suffering not to be completely free, and yes, a hullabaloo is not conducive to realizing the subtle aspects of life and reality. ...But on the other hand, I could really imagine myself, as I do today, trying to get over my suffering from recurring loneliness and emptiness. When people die, you may suffer for a duration: weeks, months, a few years. ... however suffering from lonliness and emptiness may last many, many years, far outweighing the suffering from loss and death. May all beings be happy, nori --------------- addendum below -------------------- Stories of transmigration and the deathless state are only stories to me, not truth. Until I see/witness such evidence they will remain stories and not truth. What if we all just die and thats it? - and we go nowhere ? Am I to sacrifice living the happiest life I could (which I suspect is with wife and family), and instead live without one, in order to try to attain something that I don't even know exists? --- also: Question / comment regarding: Samyutta Nikaya XV.3 Assu Sutta Tears (posted below) I wonder, if moments of happiness can produce tangible matter such as tears, or if moments of neither happy or neither sad can produce tears, or if moments of slightly sad or slightly happy can produce tears, how many oceans can we make ? Not all of life is full of tears. In fact for some or most people, moments of tearful sorrow is only a small fraction of their lives compared to the other states I mention above. --- "As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time -- crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing -- not the water in the four great oceans." "Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me. "This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time -- crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing -- not the water in the four great oceans." 26602 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hi Victor, Anatta has been realised, it has been seen, it has been witnessed and so is not speculation. Transmigration has been seen, it has been witnessed and so is not speculation. ... at least for those who have realized it. How is then the question "If there is no-self then, who transmigrates?" a speculative question? ... However I must say, it is probably speculative for (I suspect) all of us, since I doubt anybody among us has truly realised this for himself through observation (not reading it or intelluctualization). I think only an arhant or somebody close to one can realize this? I was just wondering what kind of replies the question would recieve. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > Where did you get the idea that there is no soul? The Buddha did > not teach whether there is soul or not. Thinking along the line > of "there is soul" or "there is no soul" is speculative, not > connected with the Dhamma. > > Similar question such as "if there is no self, who gets reborn?" > also starts with the assumption not connected with the Buddha's > teaching. > > Peace, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" > wrote: > > hi all, > > > > I know there is probably no chance of intelectualizing this in > words > > but I'll throw it out there anyway. > > > > If there is no-self (soul), then what transmigrates? > > > > (I have a feeling I asked this before, if so, sorry.) > > > > > > one, > > nori 26603 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:43pm Subject: Re: guarding the senses Hi Robert and all, Robert, where did you get the idea that I said "you can notice how the feeling arising at the time of taking son object change."? I think it would be a good practice to quote what someone did say, with reference if helpful, in order to avoid putting words in other's mouth, intentionally or unintentionally. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Sue, [snip] > attachment. As Victor said over time you can notice how the feelings > arising at the time of taking son as object change. In the first [snip] 26604 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:45pm Subject: Chiangmai / Pai Hello everyone, Probably the most important thing that I learnt from these trips to Asia this time is how 'yark mark' -thai for 'very difficult', the development of right understanding really is. As r.u. can only develop when it arises & 'one' cannot make it arise [not even monumental trying will do it, thats just clinging again], no more than we can control the object which seeing sees. The clinging to wanting more r.u. is really a hindrance, therefore 'allow' whatever appears thro. whatever doorway to be object of awareness. Even the word 'allow' is not so suitable - to me, it still has connotation of 'someone allowing something to happen'. R.U. can only arise when conditions are right. Phenomena are arising and falling away all the time, and it is just this phenomena that we take for self. We cannot control hearing [nama], cannot control what is heard [rupa], cannot control clinging to the hearing or to the sound heard, cannot control the arising of r.u., cannot change the characteristic of avija, of not knowing reality as it really is. The arising of r.u. must be as natural as the arising of seeing, hearing, liking, disliking. It cannot be any other way. Listen to the teachings, consider what is heard and study the present reality with r.u. - naturally. Yark mark, jing jing. The clinging to wanting r.u. is very, very subtle - I like Tan Achan's 'whispering lobha'. I think the desire for r.u. can also be very gross. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 26605 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 5:08pm Subject: Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hi Nori, The view "there is no self" is not what the Buddha taught. The Buddha did not teach the view "there is a self", nor did he teach the view "there is no self." Both views are not connected with the Buddha's teaching. Please do investigate further what the Buddha taught as recorded in the discourses and see if the Buddha taught either of these two views. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi Victor, 26606 From: nordwest Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration I wonder, what is the definition of "soul", I didn't come upon it in the buddhist glossary. IF I would use it, it would maybe be for the term "the self" ... or .. " the buddha-nature"? I'm not sure, actually I have never come upon it in any teaching. Looks like for some reason pepole are avoiding it, and I would like to know the reason, if you can tell me, thanks. Thomas yu_zhonghao wrote: Hi Nori, Where did you get the idea that there is no soul? The Buddha did not teach whether there is soul or not. Thinking along the line of "there is soul" or "there is no soul" is speculative, not connected with the Dhamma. Similar question such as "if there is no self, who gets reborn?" also starts with the assumption not connected with the Buddha's teaching. Peace, Victor 26607 From: nordwest Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Chiangmai / Pai Thank you, yes, patience is the greatest teacher. Buddha alos said, "The greatest prayer is patience." Yours in the Dharma, Thomas gazita2002 wrote: Hello everyone, Probably the most important thing that I learnt from these trips to Asia this time is how 'yark mark' -thai for 'very difficult', the development of right understanding really is. ... Yark mark, jing jing. The clinging to wanting r.u. is very, very subtle - I like Tan Achan's 'whispering lobha'. I think the desire for r.u. can also be very gross. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 26608 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 5:35pm Subject: Re: guarding the senses In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Robert and all, > > Robert, where did you get the idea that I said "you can notice how > the feeling arising at the time of taking son object change."? > > I think it would be a good practice to quote what someone did say, > with reference if helpful, in order to avoid putting words in > other's mouth, intentionally or unintentionally. > > Peace, > Victor > >Dear Victor, I got the idea from what you said earlier on this thread. Because it was a paraphrase I didnt put it in quotes. What you said was: --- "I would say that because the issue is not completely resolved, when the memory comes back, it comes with painful feeling. If the issue is resolved, it is just the memory that comes back without the painful feeling." Robertk 26609 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 6:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hi Thomas, They refer to the word "Atman" every now & then in some of the suttas. It is a vedic/hindu term which I believe is close to the definition of the english word "soul". metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: > I wonder, what is the definition of "soul", I didn't come upon it in the buddhist glossary. IF I would use it, it would maybe be for the term "the self" ... or .. " the buddha-nature"? I'm not sure, actually I have never come upon it in any teaching. Looks like for some reason pepole are avoiding it, and I would like to know the reason, if you can tell me, thanks. > > Thomas 26610 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 6:11pm Subject: Re: Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have Hi Nori, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on having a wife and > family? (uh-oh, shouldn't ask this on a Buddhist discussion group, > right?) It all depends on our accumulations and other conditions. For some people, conditions and accumulations support them becoming a monk. For other people, conditions and accumulations support them being a lay person. Yet for other people, conditions and accumulations support them being a Christian / Muslim / Hindu / etc. Recently, I wanted to help reprint a book written by a local monk. I was told that we would have to get permission from the monk and there would be a delay because the monk had disrobed a year or so ago and was now getting married. I was reminded that there is no stigma associated with a monk disrobing. In fact, there was a man at the time of the Buddha who became a monk and disrobed seven times, always to return to his wife. After the seventh time, the man awoke early in the morning, saw his wife without make-up and that was the condition for him to return to monkhood for good :-) Modern society focuses on the external, whereas the Dhamma focuses on the internal. If I were to renounce, I would be worried about the welfare of my wife and kids. This would be unwholesome. As a layperson, I can support my family and I can also study and teach the Dhamma at the local temple. This is wholesome. Better a good layperson than a bad monk. One can certainly progress "on the fast track" as a monk, without the distractions of family and other attachments. Perhaps my spiritual development as a layperson at this time will create suitable accumulations for me to become a monk in some future life (I've got countless yet to go). Friend Nori, my advice to you is to commit yourself to studying the Dhamma and, more importantly, practicing the Dhamma in your daily life. In the Bhumija Sutta (Mn 126), the Buddha made it clear that good results come from proper practice, not from good intentions. Study and practice the Dhamma; that is what you need to do, either as a layperson or as a monk. If your conditions and accumultions support your renouncing, then I encourage it out of compassion; it will support the lessening of your suffering. If your conditions and accumulations do not support your renouncing (mine do not), then that is okay as well. ===== > I remember in my parents home when our last cat died, we were very > sad. We were really sad for a few days; kinda sad for weeks, but then > we all eventually got over it. For we all knew that all things will > one day die, even us. I think even most non-Buddhists (like my > parents) are smart enough to figure that one out. > > However even though we were sad for a few weeks or more, it made our > lives more full, fun, less lonely, entertaining and just happier > overall. We (my family) had a total of three cats come and go (die, > that is) lasting a span of 35 years and I think we made each others > lives very fulfilling. While overall their deaths might have caused a > few months of suffering in total, they brought a sort of fulfillment > and happiness lasting a span of close to 35 years. > > When my parents last cat died my father was so sad he said "no more > cats, this is the last cat." They had no cat for about a month or so > and looked very sad the whole time, the house was quiet and seemed to > be missing something. One day on my own accord, brought home a baby > from a stray cat my friend had give birth in his home. It started > jumping around all over the place and brought some light back into my > parents faces. It still lives with my parents now (although now its > big and fat) and continues to bring some sort of fulfillment and > happiness into their lives. ===== The Buddha had one set of rules for monks and another set for laypeople. The rules for monks (the Vinaya) go into lots of detail about daily activities. For example, according to the Vinaya, monks are not allowed to cook for themselves. If a monk cooks for himself, then the monk would naturally prepare food that he likes and this could easily be a condition for attachment and craving. Many of the Vinaya rules are like this; "best practices to avoid conditions supporting attachment and craving". I'm not sure, but I suspect that there is a Vinaya rule against keeping pets, because of the attachment that this fosters. On the other hand, the rules for laypeople are simple and clear: - avoid killing - avoid stealing - avoid sexual misconduct - avoid lying - avoid intoxicants These five precepts are ethical laws, not spiritual practices. If, as a layperson, you want to move from eithical laws to spiritual practices (i.e. during new moon, full moon, or special occasions) then you can take the eight precepts: - avoid killing - avoid stealing - avoid incelibacy - avoid lying - avoid intoxicants - avoid eating after mid-day - avoid garlands, going to dances or shows - avoid sleeping on a high bed As you can see, even as a layperson undertaking the eight precepts for spiritual development, there is no problem with taking delight in cats or other pets. In fact, seeing a cat live and die in your own house can be a condition for an appreciation of anicca and dukkha (even if you are not Buddhist). ===== > family- > My friend has a grandmother living in his home with his family, she > is 92. I asked my friend if she was happy and lived a happy life. He > said that she seems very happy and likes playing with her grand kids. > Her husband is long dead and I think some of her kids had died, but > overall she seems happy. > > When I think about things like this, I wonder as a currently single > person which is better? ===== It depends on accumulations and conditions. Perhaps you will meet the right life partner and this will be a condition for you to marry. Perhaps you will not meet a life partner and should remain single. Single, married, monk or layperson, what is important is that you study and apply the Dhamma. Metta, Rob M :-) 26611 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 6:47pm Subject: Oops! Correction - Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - to have or no Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have: Oops!, made a boo boo on my last post. correction: --- There is an old saying in America: "It is better to have loved and lost, then to never have loved at all." --- I think thats how it goes. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hi all, > > I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on having a wife and > family? (uh-oh, shouldn't ask this on a Buddhist discussion group, > right?) > > --- > > There is an old saying in America: > "It is better to have loved, then to never have loved at all." > > ...but the Buddhist saying goes more like: > "Beware of love, for love will bring you grief. It will bring fear of > losing your love. It will bring one day separation from what is dear." > > --- > > cats- > I remember in my parents home when our last cat died, we were very > sad. We were really sad for a few days; kinda sad for weeks, but then > we all eventually got over it. For we all knew that all things will > one day die, even us. I think even most non-Buddhists (like my > parents) are smart enough to figure that one out. > > However ... snip! 26612 From: connie Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 6:59pm Subject: Re: kamma and vipaka Hi, Ken O I like to think that all kusala leads to more kusala, but as Nina's Conditions states: If we do not develop satipatthana with the purpose of eradicating akusala, the kusala we perform can, without our noticing it, be a natural decisive support-condition for akusala citta. ... ...Akusala can also be a natural decisive support-condition for kusala. Because of aversion towards akusala vipaka or attachment to kusala vipaka one may perform good deeds. More reminders that most of our lives involve more akusala than kusala and that things aren't as simple as they seem. peace, connie Ken O: All are just condition "conditioning" our next condition. Sounds mechanic and also sounds like we have no control - scary idea isn't it. It isn't. In fact this is very helpful bc kusala conditions will condition more kusala ones. Isn't it nice :) 26613 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 7:28pm Subject: Re: guarding the senses Hi Robert, Thank you for providing the quote. I would say that your paraphrase misrepresented what I said in "I would say that because the issue is not completely resolved, when the memory comes back, it comes with painful feeling. If the issue is resolved, it is just the memory that comes back without the painful feeling." Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: [snip] > I got the idea from what you said earlier on this thread. Because it > was a paraphrase I didnt put it in quotes. What you said was: --- "I > would say that because the issue is not completely resolved, when > the memory comes back, it comes with painful feeling. If the issue > is resolved, it is just > the memory that comes back without the painful feeling." > Robertk 26614 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 7:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hi Nori, Let's me ask this question: How do you know that the Buddha used the word "atta"/"self" in his teaching as a vedic/hindu term? Please do investigate further how the word "atta"/"self" is used in the Buddha's teaching as recorded in the discourses. A possible starting point: Dhammapada XII Self http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp/12.html Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi Thomas, [snip] 26615 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 8:11pm Subject: Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hello Nori, Great question! I often ask questions two or three times, and have been known to completely forget something members have patiently and painstakingly explained to me previously - don't worry about it. :-) Look on it as a public service to the lurkers - and the rest of us who need to hear things explained over and over again. Bhikkhu Bodhi has succinctly stated the Buddhist teachings on dukkha (unsatisfactoriness/suffering), anicca (impermanence) and anatta (not- self) at: http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/trilogy.htm It is also worth reading the definition of Anatta under "A" in Ven. Nyanatiloka's "Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines" http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm You may find benefit in reading the Useful Posts (4th from the top in the Files Section). Look under the headings of: Anatta (not self); and, Anatta - no control?; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hi all, > > I know there is probably no chance of intelectualizing this in words > but I'll throw it out there anyway. > > If there is no-self (soul), then what transmigrates? > > (I have a feeling I asked this before, if so, sorry.) > > > one, > nori 26616 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 8:16pm Subject: Re: What did Buddha accomplish? Hello Antony, You may find these links of assistance: Qualities of Ariya Persons http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/ariyas4.htm From Puthujjana to Buddha http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/ariyacht.htm Ariyas (Noble Persons) http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/mtinmon4.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > What did Buddha accomplish? > What does an arahant accomplish? > What is the goal of Buddhism? > > Thanks / Antony. > 26617 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 8:40pm Subject: Re: What did Buddha accomplish? Hi Antony, I will answer the first question as I understand it: 1. What did Buddha accomplish? The Buddha is fully accomplished with ten Tathagata's powers and four kinds of intrepidity.* Peace, Victor * Majjhima Nikaya 12 Maha-sihanada Sutta The Great Discourse on the Lion's Roar http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn012.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > What did Buddha accomplish? > What does an arahant accomplish? > What is the goal of Buddhism? > > Thanks / Antony. 26618 From: nordwest Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 6:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the monk's wife - To have or not to have I knew, there must be a deeper meaning behind becoming a monk!! ;0) LOL , there was a man at the time of the Buddha who became a monk and disrobed seven times, always to return to his wife. After the seventh time, the man awoke early in the morning, saw his wife without make-up and that was the condition for him to return to monkhood for good :-) 26619 From: nordwest Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have I like to think, that all beings have been our parents before. Like this, noone is single. In my eyes, "single" is more a term related to sex. - If we can give love not only for a few ones, but radiate our love unconditional, then we will swim in waves of love through life. Family is nice, and friends, and lovers ... but we come alone, and depart alone. In general, if love is not about attachment, its a blessing. If its arrachment, its suffering. Many suffer when seeing beings depart to the next life and rejoice, when someone is born. What is the difference? Attachment and attitude. Yours in the Dharma, Thomas norakat147 wrote:hi all, I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on having a wife and family? (uh-oh, shouldn't ask this on a Buddhist discussion group, right?) --- 26620 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 9:36pm Subject: Re: kamma and vipaka Hello RobM, and all, Thank you for your post - (I still haven't read back to your karuna post, but I see you have had lots of discussion and suggestions already). I'm so glad that you and others take the time and have the patience to assist those of us with a little more dust in our eyes.:) I found this post to be clear and understandable, the simile of the ball rolling down the pile of gravel is helpful - and it's interesting what you say about radiating metta nad accumulations, and the experimental data otained at the UofW. (not radiating metta to self, of course :-)). Just one question at the moment - Wouldn't emotion be covered under Pleasant or Unpleasant mental feeling? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" 26621 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Karuna (compassion) for comment Hi RobM, Thanks for your further comments. --- robmoult wrote: > I thought about the phrase, "not bearing" and I felt it was the best > alternative; suggests "trembling heart" and is not too suggestive of > aversion. Do you have an alternative phrase? ..... I think you can use it, but preferably within the quote from the texts which is obviously a literal translation. (??maybe dhara - bearing, holding - perhaps Steve or Derek or someone else could check). My inclination would be to quote more from the texts than other writings. See a few below. Trembling heart...... I’ve done a bit of reverse checking and have found a reference in CMA. B.Bodhi in his Guide to #9, ch9 writes; “Compassion (karu.naa) is that which makes the heart quiver when others are subject to suffering. It is the wish to remove the suffering of others, and it is opposed to cruelty.” I’m curious to know where the ‘tembling heart’ or ‘heart quiver’ comes from in the texts. In the commentary to the Abhidammatthasangaha (PTS) which the Guide is based on, it doesn’t mention it, but merely says “Compassion has the characteristic of desiring the removal of the suffering of others.” As we know, when there is compassion, there is calm and absence of agitation and so on, so I’d need to see another reference to be convinced;-) ..... > I see "wishing for a person's suffering to be reduced" as the > definition of compassion. "It would be better for me if they got > better..." is definitely lobha-mula, but if the thought is clearly > with the other person as object, "I want their suffering to be > reduced...", then it is compassion. .... I have no problem with the definition. Practically, though, I think attachment slips in all the time. Isn’t the wish so often because it’s my child, my wife, my friend, wishing them less suffering? Not ‘bearing’ or ‘wishing’ to see the suffering of dear ones and so on. Only sati and panna can know at any moment. ..... > I am suggesting using feelings to determine compassion or not so > that one can avoid being fooled by the near enemy, aversion. From my > experience, aversion tends to push compassion aside a lot more > easily than lobha-mula cittas do. When I recognize lobha-mula cittas > at times that I feel it is appropriate to have compassion, I feel > like a hypocrite - "Here they are suffering, and all I can think > about is myself!" .... It may easily be thinking of the others with attachment too, I think, as I just said. I’m not at all sure that the characteristic of compassion or other states can ever be known, merely by ‘using feelings’, though I do agree about unpleasant feelings, aversion and the near enemy here. ..... >On the other hand, when I should be feeling > compassion, righteous indignation about "how unfair it is" often > creeps in and stays around for a while (mentally proliferates). .... And there can be attachment with these states as well..Clinging to the indignation and view, being fooled again, I think as you suggest. .... > Mahasi Sayadaw uses "trebling of the heart" as part of the > definition of compassion. Mahasi Sayadaw uses "delaying of hapiness" > (kam sukham rundhatiti = karuna) as a definition of compassion. > > ===== I’ve skipped your comments about ‘balancing’ brahma viharas and Nyanaponika’s comments for now;-) OK, I’ve found the reference for you for ‘trembling heart;-) Vism 1X, 92: “paradukkhe sati saadhuuna.m hadaya-kampana.m karoti” Nanamoli’s transl: “When there is suffering in others it causes (karoti) good people’s hearts to be moved (kampana), thus it is karu.naa.” Looking at the Stede, Rhys Davids dictionary, with reference to the Sutta Nipata commentary on ‘The Rhinoceros Horn: “SnA 128 (on SN73) explains karuna as “ahita-dukkh-aapanaya-kaamataa”, the desire of removing bane and sorrow (from one’s fellow-men), whilst metta is explained as “hita-sukh-uupanaya-kaamataa,” the diesire of bringing (to one’s fellow-men) that which is welfare and good. Many more definitions given with references. .... > My view on radiating is that the benefit goes to the being doing the > radiating, not the being that is radiated to. The benefit is the > developing an accumulation through nuturing a habit. .... I understand. I think this may come from the exalted state of compassion for all beings (“karuna sahagaena cetasaa”, i.e extending in all directions). Like we discussed on the metta sutta and its commentary, this refers to highly developed (jhana level) brahma viharas as samatha objects, I think. Vism continuing from the reference I gave above; “or alternatively, it combats (ki.naati) others’ suffering, attacks and demolishes it, thus it is compassion. Or alternatively, it is scattered (kiriyati) upon those who suffer, it is extended to them by pervasion, thus it is compassion (karu.naa). <..> 94 “Compassion is characterised as promoting the aspect of allaying suffering. (paradukkhaasahana-rasaa). Its function resides in not bearing others’ suffering ....” Plenty more to consider.... Metta, Sarah p.s Newbies: I forget to mention that thanks to RobM’s painstaking work, we have the entire archives for DSG in easy to scroll through word documents (all yahoo blurb and ads removed). This is particularly useful for those who travel, have limited internet access, wish to use these for searches or for reading through the archives like a novel. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ ===================================== 26622 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 2:05am Subject: Myanmar5: Equalizing/Balancing/Coupling of Faculties Dear RobM, Nina & All, This is a difficult topic for me. RobM gave a good summary of what we find in the texts in his post on saddha (confidence). As usual, he encouraged me to investigate further;-): http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m19577.html RobM: >Saddha is one of the "controlling faculties" that exercise leadership over the accompanied mental states. Other controlling faculties include wisdom, energy, concentration and mindfulness. There must be a balance of the controlling faculties: - Too much saddha and too little wisdom leads to blind faith - Too little saddha and too much wisdom leads to cunning - Too much saddha and too little energy leads to no exertion - Too little saddha and too much energy leads to no resolve - Too much saddha and too little concentration makes one easily distracted - Too little saddha and too much concentration inhibits absorption (jhana) - Too much saddha and too little mindfulness does not provide a foundation - Too little saddha and too much mindfulness does not allow comprehension< =============== Support from texts is easy to find. For example, in the commentary and sub-commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta (SS), which we went through on DSG, we read (p.139 Soma transl): “He who is very strong in faith and feeble in wisdom becomes a person who believes in foolish people who have no virtue, persons who are not trustworthy. He who has very strong wisdom and feeble faith gets crafty-minded, and is like a drug-produced disease that cannot be cured. Such a person thinks that wholesome karma arises with just the intention to do good. Going along the wrong way, by a species of thought beyond the limits of reason, and doing neither almsgiving nor other similar good deeds, he is born in a state of woe. By the equipollence of faith and wisdom one believes only in those like the Buddha who are worthy of trust because there is a reason for trusting them........” Many other examples are given in the text for the other states. ***** My question, which I raised in Bangkok, was how there can be too much confidence or too much wisdom, for example. Also, surely saddha cannot develop without wisdom and so often if there are thoughts about ‘balancing faculties’, it is with an idea of self or selection again. There were further questions too. We had several discussions and many examples were given. Just like in this example above from the Tika to the SS, people may think they know more than they really do,’beyond the limits of reason’, having studied a lot from the Abhidhamma or other texts or being able to recite in Pali, for example, but with little saddha or sati. It may be panna, but at an intellectual level only, so that there are bound to still be lots of doubts and wavering an no real insight. Conversely, someone may prostrate before a Buddha image many times a day and have a lot of saddha, but very little understanding of the teachings. The saddha is genuine, but there can be lots of wrong understanding in between, leading to the following of foolish people etc as mentioned in the Tika. A.Sujin mentioned that at moments of satipatthana, the faculties are balanced already, not just at noble path moments as I’d understood. Presumably this is why we read about the examples in the Tika to the SS. When there is no satipatthana, they are unbalanced. Samatha/samadhi and vipassana are a ‘coupling’. This doesn’t refer to jhana level samadhi and vipassana. There are many levels of samadhi and sati. At vipassana nana, samatha and vipassana appear together and show the characteristics of namas and rupas at that moment. ..... In SN, Mahaavagga,45 Maggasa.myutta,4 (The Brahmin)Bodhi transl we read about the ‘divine vehicle in this Dhamma and Discipline’, ie the Noble Eightfold Path, ‘the unsurpassed victory in battle’: “Its qualities of faith and wisdom Are always yoked evenly together. Shame is its pole, mind its yoke-tie, mindfulness the watchful charioteer. The chariot’s ornament is virtue, Its axle jhana*, energy its wheels; Equanmimity keeps the burden balanced, Desirelessness serves as upholstery. Good will, harmlessness, and seclusion: These are the chariot’s weaponry, Forbearance its armour and shield, As it rolls towards security from bondage. This divine vehicle unsurpassed Originates from within oneself. The wise depart from the world in it, Inevitably winning the victory.” ***** * “BB:jhaanakkho. Spk: ‘The axle made of jhaana by way of the five jhana factors accompanying insight’. The five jhana factors are thought, examination, rapture, happiness, and one pointedness of mind. Though when fully mature they bring the mind to the first jhana, these factors are also present, though less prominently, in the concentration that accompanies insight meditation.” ***** I also intented to quote from a post Nina wrote before on coupling/balancing from the Patisambhidamagga passages which had partly prompted my qus. As this post is already long , I’ll give the link and a textual quote after signing off without saying more. It’s not an easy topic and I’ll be glad to hear any further comments. As usual it helps to remember these are conditioned states and anatta - no self to direct or balance;-) Metta, Sarah http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9254.html Nina: >Now going to the Patisambidhamagga, English p. 291, using Larry's quote: -------------- At the time of developing the eight mundane attainments the serenity power is in excess, while at the time of developing the contemplations of impermanence, etc., the insight power is in excess. But at the noble path moment they occur coupled together in the sense that neither one exceeds the other. So there is coupling of the powers in the case of each one of these four kinds of knowledge, according as it is said 'When he emerges from the defilements associated with agitation, and from the aggregates, his mental unification, non-distraction, concentration, has cessation as its domain. When he emerges from the defilements associated with ignorance and from the aggregates, his insight in the sense of contemplation has cessation as its domain. So serenity and insight have a single nature in the sense of emergence, they are coupled together, and neither exceeds the other. Hence it was said: He develops serenity and insight coupled together in the sense of emergence' ========== 26623 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094] Dear Nina, Thank you for f/w this passage again with the Pali. I know RobM has posted it before and some people find it difficult to accept that wrong deeds performed 'unknowingly' carry a stiffer penalty, so to speak. I gave a few speculative reasons of my own and tried without success to find more detail and explanation in other texts. I wonder if you or anyone else has more detail or explanation on this as it tends to recur. Metta, Sarah ===== --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Raajaa aaha: ?Bhante Naagasena, yo jaananto > paapakamma.m karoti, yo ajaananto paapakamma.m karoti, > kassa bahutara.m apu~n~nan?ti? > The king said: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the > greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one > who does evil unknowingly?? > > Thero aaha ?yo kho, mahaaraaja, ajaananto paapakamma.m > karoti, tassa bahutara.m apu~n~nan?ti. > The elder replied: "Indeed, great king, for him who > does evil not knowing is the greater demerit?. 26624 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 3:58am Subject: Re: Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > I'm not sure, but I suspect that > there is a Vinaya rule against keeping pets, because of the > attachment that this fosters. Hi Rob M, Just a small point of clarification, there aren't any Vinaya rules against keeping pets. Monks and nuns can feed and care for animals. I know for example that in Thailand several stray and abandoned dogs stay on temple grounds because the monks will feed them. At my temple in Arizona there are several dogs and cats which the monks feed and care for. Some dogs have been there so long they even have their own doghouses! ;-) There is a cute story concerning dogs and monks. The famous meditation monk Ajahn Chah decided one day that he didn't like having stray dogs running all over the temple grounds so he ordered that all the dogs be put outside of the gates and the gates closed. Sometime after locking the dogs out, he noticed that the squirrels around the temple became lazy and over-confident. He then ordered that the gates be re-opened and the dogs allowed back inside: he wanted to keep everyone and everything at his temple on their toes! ;-) I think the point is that having a pet doesn't necessarily lead to attachment. It will be up to each person as to how they treat and view that pet. Metta, James 26625 From: Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 11:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Larry - I insert one comment in the middle of your post. In a message dated 11/3/03 5:53:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Jon and Howard, > > Howard, I think Jon and I are having a similar conversation about the > nature of consciousness/experience. In other, non-Theravada > traditions consciousness is likened to a crystal that takes on the > characteristics of whatever it touches. A crystal on a piece of red > cloth is colored red. In the same way, consciousness OF red is red > consciousness and consciousness WITH anger is angry consciousness. > This way of understanding consciousness makes sense to me and it > seems to make sense out of the 121 kinds of consciousness, which > otherwise are not different kinds of consciousness but different > combinations of cetasikas and rupas. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I find this model to be enticing, because it is aesthetically pleasing, but probably more so because it plays into my very-much-remaining *sense* of self and thingness. However, I don't believe in this model. This model suggests to me a "consciousness substance" a bit like a liquid, like a vanilla ice cream, into which various add-ons such as cookies, fudge sauce, marshmallow sauce, and so on, are mixed. This is not the way I think about matters. I think, instead, of a series of impersonal cognitive *events*. Each occurrence consists of the knowing of an object in the context of a sense-door activation. The knowing aspect of the event is what we call vi~n~nana, the known aspect is aramanna, the doorway is dvara, and the cooccurrence is phassa. Whether one such event "flows" into the next or whether the process is better described discretely is something I don't know, but is, I think, less important than the event-nature of what is happening as opposed to a substance-nature or thing-nature. At the same time as there is a contact event, other related functions are operative, the so called cetasikas. But it is all a matter of events / functions / operations. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Using this model of the crystal I would call this consciousness > subjectivity. The question remains, how to account for objectivity? > Perhaps we could say the two cetasikas "view" (ditthi) > and "mindfulness" each somehow engineer a point of view. We could > call this experiential point of view objectivity. Obviously there are > differences between the objectivity of view and the objectivity of > mindfulness. Most notably, the "point of view" of view seems like > self while the "point of view" of mindfulness doesn't. This way of > understanding objectivity would also give a real, experiential > manifestation to view instead of being merely opinion and belief > (concept). > > I don't know if it is significant but this model would also mean that > objectivity is a kind of subjectivity. Consciousness WITH mindfulness > is mindful consciousness and the same for view. Comments? I'm > particularly interested in how to account for the experience of > objectivity, both wholesome and unwholesome, and whether you think > this simile of the crystal will fly in Theravada. > > Larry > > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26626 From: Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 11:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hi, Nori - In a message dated 11/3/03 6:09:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, nori_public@a... writes: > hi all, > > I know there is probably no chance of intelectualizing this in words > but I'll throw it out there anyway. > > If there is no-self (soul), then what transmigrates? > > (I have a feeling I asked this before, if so, sorry.) > > > one, > nori > ============================== When there is a line of billiard balls, and you quickly strike the first of these with the cue ball, the cue ball stops and the last ball in the line moves. Was the motion of the last ball the very "same" motion that the cue ball had? Did "that" motion transmigrate? Or ... is it the case that the movement of the cue ball was condition for the subsequent movement of the last ball in the line? Was the moving a "thing" that was "passed on"? Or is it simply a matter of the occurrence and cessation of one event serving as condition for the occurrence of a subsequent of a subsequent event. The Buddhist choice in each case is, I believe, the second. It is the same for rebirth. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26627 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > > I'm not sure, but I suspect that > > there is a Vinaya rule against keeping pets, because of the > > attachment that this fosters. > > Just a small point of clarification, there aren't any Vinaya rules > against keeping pets. Monks and nuns can feed and care for animals. > I know for example that in Thailand several stray and abandoned dogs > stay on temple grounds because the monks will feed them. At my > temple in Arizona there are several dogs and cats which the monks > feed and care for. Some dogs have been there so long they even have > their own doghouses! ;-) > > I think the point is that having a pet doesn't necessarily lead to > attachment. It will be up to each person as to how they treat and > view that pet. Thanks James, come to think of it, most of the temples that I have visited have animals around. Metta, Rob M :-) 26628 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 5:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Nori It is true that anything from kusala can be akusala in just nanoseconds and we know that dhamma is very deep but that I think should not discourage us. With sati, we with keep akusala in check and with exhortion and resolve we keep producing good kusalas. Choose if you have to and I wonder which side you like to be in (kusala or akusala), just remember to put on your safety belts (satipatthana) :). Never and never be discourage just bc there are more akusala, Buddha himself also begin just like us aeons and aeons ago. Kind rgds Ken O --- connie wrote: > Hi, Ken O > > I like to think that all kusala leads to more kusala, but as Nina's > Conditions states: > > If we do not develop satipatthana with the purpose of eradicating > akusala, the kusala we perform can, without our noticing it, be a > natural decisive support-condition for akusala citta. ... > ...Akusala can also be a natural decisive support-condition for > kusala. > Because of aversion towards akusala vipaka or attachment to kusala > vipaka one may perform good deeds. > > More reminders that most of our lives involve more akusala than > kusala > and that things aren't as simple as they seem. > > peace, > connie 26629 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 5:32am Subject: Help required from Bkk contingent of DSG Hi All, Next Thursday (Nov 13th), I will have an afternoon free in Bangkok and I would like to visit Khun Sujin (I haven't met her yet). Can one of the Bangkok DSG members let me know if Khun Sujin is available at that time. I can take a cab to meet Khun Sujin, but I will need a handphone number of a DSG member who can explain in Thai how to get to where Khun Sujin is. Please respond to my email address. Metta, Rob M :-) 26630 From: Molly Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 6:24am Subject: dhamma urgency to do good the dhamma has an urgency because of the knowledge it contains. it knows everything and it urges us to act according to the laws of cause and effect above all else. Logic is the master of the universe, nothing else. kamma is no unacceptable concept to be feared. it is our only friend. it shines like a beacon in the night of ignorance and folly!!! dhamma friends dhamma friends. the delusion of I is the string which holds together the khanda, the experiences of rupa and nama (sense door consciousness, feeling, evaluating, reacting... again rupa-nama... again rupa-nama... and on and on until we break the chain of personality belief, wallowing in self pity is our last aversion strong hold which we must abandon for the light of anatta. blessed be the dhamma and the saints who keep the dhamma wheel turning for our benefit. the real saints and sages always urge us to do good for the benefit of all beings as the dhamma is clear and leaves no doubts. http://www.webcom.com/imcuk/ledi/MANUAL10.html 26631 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 10:18am Subject: FW: Co to the Raahulovaadasutta 21 B Co to the Raahulovaadasutta 21 B Relevant Sutta passage: ``pathaviisama.m, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti. Apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, Rahula, For, Rahula, agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen when you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, will not persistently overwhelm the mind. Commentary: 119. idaanissa taadibhaavalakkha.na.m aacikkhanto pathaviisamantiaadimaaha. Now he said to him, when explaining the characteristic of such nature (of the highest qualification), ³like the earth² and so on. i.t.thaani.t.thesu hi arajjanto adussanto taadii naama hoti. Someone who is not attached nor has aversion with regard to the desirable and the undesirable is called ³of such nature². manaapaamanaapaati ettha a.t.tha lobhasahagatacittasampayuttaa manaapaa naama, With regard to the words agreeable and disagreeable, here the eight types of consciousness accompanied by attachment are called agreeable, dve domanassacittasampayuttaa amanaapaa naama. and two types of consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling are called disagreeable *. citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassantiiti ete phassaa uppajjitvaa With reference to the expression, they do not persistently obsess the mind, this means, when these impressions have arisen, tava citta.m antomu.t.thigata.m karonto viya pariyaadaaya gahetvaa .thaatu.m na sakkhissanti. they cannot persistently overwhelm your mind when you have mastered them by putting them as it were inside a clenched fist. ``aha.m sobhaami,mayha.m va.n.naayatana.m pasanna''nti With regard to thoughts such as, ³I am beautiful, my appearance is splendid², puna attabhaava.m nissaaya chandaraago nuppajjissati. attachment that is dependent on the body does not arise again. guuthagatantiaadiisu guuthameva guuthagata.m. eva.m sabbattha. As to the expression, ordure and so on, it is truly excrement, filthy in all respects. English text: Now he said, when explaining the characteristic of such nature (of the highest qualification), ³like the earth² and so on. not being attached nor having aversion with regard to the desirable and the undesirable is ³suchness². With regard to the words agreeable and disagreeable, here the eight types of consciousness accompanied by attachment are agreeable, and two types of consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling are disagreeable *. With reference to the expression, they do not persistently obsess the mind, this means, when these impressions have arisen, they cannot persistently overwhelm your mind when you have mastered them, by putting them as it were inside a clenched fist. With regard to thoughts such as, ³I am beautiful, my appearance is splendid², attachment that is dependent on the body does not arise again. As to the expression, ordure and so on, it is truly excrement, filthy in all respects. __________ * note: There are eight (a.t.tha) akusala cittas rooted in lobha: four with pleasant feeling, four with indifferent feeling, four with wrong view (di.t.thi), four without wrong view, four not induced or spontaneous(asa²nkhaarika) and four induced (sasa²nkhaarika) There are two akusala cittas rooted in dosa: domanassacittasampayuttaa: consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling (that is: citta rooted in aversion or hate). One of them is not induced (asa²nkhaarika) and one is induced (sasa²nkhaarika). ***** Nina 26632 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: loss Dear Sue, Sue: I have a difficulty > with one particular memory. My son committed suicide at the age of > 28. I do think of him every day even though it is painful. In > addition, I light candles and say prayers for him on each anniversary > of the day he died. >> >> I will do the same this year on 9th November. I realise that this > is a form of attachment on my part and one should try to free oneself > from attachments, but this seems impossible for me in this case. James: I think that everyone has given you some good advice. I don't think > that I can really add much. Nina: I agree with James. I was touched very much by all the compassionate words of advice of those who had similar experiences. I also think of the sutta quoted by Victor: Such a loss happened not only in this life, but in countless former lives. So long as we are in the cycle of birth and death it will happen again and again. The person who is departed is gone but there are conditions for a new life, rebirth again. It is not the same person, but there is a connection: the life that is gone conditions the new life. There are still five khandhas arising and falling away. I find this a consoling thought: we can do something for departed ones. Dana, generosity is not only the giving away of material things, but there can be a mental gift: when you appreciate someone else's kusala and express your appreciation, it is a kind of dana, anumodana dana. When you give other people, be they alive or departed, the opportunity to appreciate your kusala, there is again another kind of dana. it is sometimes called extension of merit, but this term is misleading. You cannot actually transfer your kusala, but you can help others to have kusala citta as well. In the "Minor Readings" of the Khuddaka Nikaya, and its Commentary, the Illuistrator of ultimate Meaning, Ch VII, "Without the Walls Discourse", we read that King Bimbisara offered a meal to the Buddha but neglected to offer his kusala for the benefit of departed relatives who were in the ghost plane. Afterwards he remembered. We read in the sutta that the Buddha said: In Thailand we express our intention to help also departed ones by offering up our kusala after a Dhamma session. We all say aloud a beautiful text. We did the same at the holy places in India. One can say to oneself the names of dear departed ones. This could be a helpful thought for you when you light candles. At the moment of kusala citta there is no room for sorrow. Sorrow will arise again, but it can be alternated with kusala citta. Nina. 26633 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Chiangmai / Pai Dear Azita and Thomas, I liked Azita's report and reminder about patience. op 04-11-2003 01:59 schreef nordwest op tnordwest@y...: > Thank you, yes, patience is the greatest teacher. Buddha also said, "The > greatest prayer is patience." N: We cannot pray for it, it is much more difficult, Thomas. Dhammapada: vs 184: Forbearing patience is the hishest ascetism. It can and should be trained. It is one of the perfections the Bodhisatta accumulated. But when something in a day is the last drop I fail miserably, I fail the test. Nina. 26634 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 1:23pm Subject: Re: Myanmar5: Equalizing/Balancing/Coupling of Faculties Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > ***** > My question, which I raised in Bangkok, was how there can be too much > confidence or too much wisdom, for example. Also, surely saddha cannot > develop without wisdom and so often if there are thoughts about `balancing > faculties', it is with an idea of self or selection again. ===== Perhaps the answer links back to the Myanmar4 post, accumulations. Every time we do something, it strengthens an accumulation and this accumulation (together with other accumulations) automatically directs and controls the mental flow. For example, if one tends to have many, many moments that are strong in saddha, then this will create a very strong accumulation towards faith. If there are very few other moments that are strong in panna, then the accumulation towards panna will be weak. When such a person (strong saddha accumulation, weak panna accumulation) faces a situation, the strong saddha accumulation may "highjack" the mental process and lead it toward an approach described at a macro-level as "blind faith". Of course, every kusala citta includes the cetasika saddha. However, this does not imply that every kusala action has an equal impact on the accumulation of saddha. Moments that are "strong in saddha" (deepen the accumulation of saddha) are separate from the moments that are "strong in panna" (deepen the accumulation of panna). My interpretation of the texts on Equalizing/Balancing/Coupling of Faculties is that one must have a balanced approach to developing accumulations so that the response to all situations is balanced. At the micro (citta) level, we have the cetasika tatramajjhattata (literally "remaining here and there in the middle"), which arises in every kusala citta. This is the balance of citta and cetasikas. Tatramajjhattata allows an object to be viewed with impartiality. It affects the balance of the citta and the cetasikas it arises together with, so that there is neither deficiency nor excess of any one among them. At the macro (accumulations) level, we have the need to balance accumulations; I gave the example of the need to balance the spiritual faculties, but as explained by Nyanaponika, accumulations of the brahmaviharas also need to be balanced. Sarah, I tend to see accumulations as central to many aspects of the Dhamma and I continue to be nervous that this subject does not appear to be given prominence in the texts. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 26635 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 1:36pm Subject: Re: dhamma urgency to do good Hi Molly, Welcome to DSG :-) Your post below is excellent. Normally, netiquette obliges that we trim posts in our replies, but I have left yours intact with the hope that more people might read it. Look forward to more posts from you (its great when somebody "delurks"). Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Molly" wrote: > the dhamma has an urgency because of the knowledge it contains. it > knows everything and it urges us to act according to the laws of > cause and effect above all else. Logic is the master of the universe, > nothing else. kamma is no unacceptable concept to be feared. it is > our only friend. it shines like a beacon in the night of ignorance > and folly!!! dhamma friends dhamma friends. the delusion of I is the > string which holds together the khanda, the experiences of rupa and > nama (sense door consciousness, feeling, evaluating, reacting... > again rupa-nama... again rupa-nama... and on and on until we break > the chain of personality belief, wallowing in self pity is our last > aversion strong hold which we must abandon for the light of anatta. > blessed be the dhamma and the saints who keep the dhamma wheel > turning for our benefit. > the real saints and sages always urge us to do good for the benefit > of all beings as the dhamma is clear and leaves no doubts. > > http://www.webcom.com/imcuk/ledi/MANUAL10.html 26636 From: connie Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 1:50pm Subject: Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Sarah and All, S: 'pakatuupanissaya'. So accumulations includes everything 'including concepts and rupas' conditioning at this moment. Who knows the accumulations of each person and how anyone will respond at any moment? By pakatuupanissaya, accumulations can be traced back over aeons and aeons. Anything can be a condition as a result. C: Anything but kiriya can be vipaka? I think I'm trying to fit pieces into the wrong holes... trying to relate 'pakatuupanissaya' to both "effortless quiet", whatever that means, and Jon's "(ben puu) mii-pokati charoen (satipatthaan)" [(one who) develops (satipatthana) naturally/habitually] because I like the sound of them and haven't come up with a good definition for "effortless quiet". Ben puu mii-pokati charoen papa~nca could be my new mantra as I go about tying more loose ends into my tangled skein. Vsm XVII, 89: (14) A resultant state that, by effortless quiet, assists effortless quiet [in other states] is a kamma-result condition. In the course of an existence it is a condition for states originated by it, and at rebirth-linking for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed, and in both cases for the associated states, according as it is said 'One resultant indeterminate aggregate is a condition, as kamma-result condition, for three aggregates and for the kinds of materialtiy originated by consciousness...At the moment of rebirth linking one resultant indeterminate aggregate [is a condition...] for three aggregates...Three aggregates [are a condition...] for one aggregate...Two aggregates are a condition, as kamma-result condition, for two aggregates and for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed. Aggregates are a condition as kamma-result condition, for the physical basis' (P.tn 1.173). Nina's Conditions: As to vipaka-condition, citta and its accompanying cetasikas which are vipaka condition one another by being vipaka. The realities involved in vipaka-condition are phenomena which are conascent, arising at the same time. We read in the Visuddhimagga (XVII,89) that they assist one another "by effortless quiet". They are merely vipaka, they have no other activity. The nature of vipakacitta is altogether different from the nature of kusala citta and akusala citta which are active in the wholesome way or in the unwholesome way. Vipakacitta and its accompanying cetasikas also condition one another by way of conascence-condition and by way of mutuality-condition (see Ch 5). Throughout life kamma produces vipakacittas arising in processes of cittas which experience pleasant or unpleasant objects. Seeing, for example, is vipakacitta which experiences a pleasant or unpleasant visible object through the eyesense. It merely sees, it does not know whether the object is pleasant or unpleasant. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas condition one another by way of vipaka-condition, they assist one another in "effortless quiet". The succeeding receiving-consciousness, sampaticchana-citta , is also vipakacitta, and this is succeeded by another vipakacitta, the investigating-consciousness, santirana-citta. This is succeeded by the determining-consciousness, the votthapana-citta, which is a kiriyacitta. After that the javana-cittas arise which are, in the case of non-arahats, kusala cittas or akusala cittas. When the object is pleasant, lobha-mula-cittas are likely to arise and when the object is unpleasant, dosa-mula-cittas are likely to arise. There are seven javana-cittas arising, succeeding one another. C: Do you think all three kinds of upanissaya (decisive support or strong dependence)-paccaya are/function 'by way of accumulations'? (The 3 being decisive support of: object - arammanupanissaya, proximity - anantarupanissaya and natural condition - pakutapanissaya). I've always thought of accumulations as mental, but can't we also say it's the case that with something like aging (mii-pokati charoen!), we're talking about accumulated (effects of the) fire element... Khanda (nama and rupa) = aggregate = accumulations. I hope, btw, that the fires in your limbs are subsiding and you're experiencing more of the air element, with wise attention, of course. peace, connie 26637 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 2:19pm Subject: Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > S: > 'pakatuupanissaya'. So accumulations includes everything 'including > concepts and rupas' conditioning at this moment. Who knows the > accumulations of each person and how anyone will respond at any moment? > By pakatuupanissaya, accumulations can be traced back over aeons and > aeons. Anything can be a condition as a result. > > C: > Anything but kiriya can be vipaka? ===== R: Sorry, Connie, I don't think that this is a correct interpretation. Natural decisive support condition (pakatuupanissaya) aka accumulations, works as a condition for every citta: - At time of rebirth (patisandhikala), accumulations are one of the conditions that allow the bhavanga citta to arise - During the course of existence (pavattikala), accumulations are one of the conditions that allow the arising of all other cittas; accumulations impact which objects enter the sense door (vipaka), accumulations impact the determining citta (kiriya) that "chooses" between kusala and akusala javana, accumulations also condition the type of javana citta that arises. The conditioned state for accumulations is only citta, the conditioning states can be concepts, past 89 cittas with their associated 52 cetasikas or even the 28 types of rupa. It seems that anything can be a condioning state for accumulations; the only requirement is that it is "strong" and "past". ===== > C: > Do you think all three kinds of upanissaya (decisive support or strong > dependence)-paccaya are/function 'by way of accumulations'? (The 3 being > decisive support of: object - arammanupanissaya, proximity - > anantarupanissaya and natural condition - pakutapanissaya). ===== R: My understanding is that only the third (natural decisive support) functions by way of accumulations. Object decisive support condition is the same as object predominance condition and proximity decisive support is the same as proximity condition. ===== > I've always > thought of accumulations as mental, but can't we also say it's the case > that with something like aging (mii-pokati charoen!), we're talking > about accumulated (effects of the) fire element... > Khanda (nama and rupa) = aggregate = accumulations. ===== R: The conditioned states of natural decisive support condition are always mental, however the conditioning states include strong past concepts, cittas, cetasikas and rupas. Metta, Rob M :-) 26638 From: Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 4:02pm Subject: Vism. XIV 34, 35, 36 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [THE MATERIALITY AGGREGATE] 34. Herein, all kinds of states whatsoever that have the characteristic of 'being molested' (ruppana) by cold, etc., taken all together should be understood as the materiality (ruupa) aggregate. 1. That is of one kind with the characteristic of 'being molested'. 2. It is also of two kinds when classed as (a) primary entity (bhuuta) and (b) derived [by clinging] (upaadaaya). 35. Herein (a) "primary materiality" is of four kinds as the earth element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, 87, 93); but as to the proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444] 36. (b) "Derived materiality" is of twenty-four kinds as eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, visible datum, sound, odour, flavour (13), feminity faculty, masculinity faculty, life faculty, heart-basis; bodily intimation,verbal intimation; space element; lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, ageing of matter, impermanence of matter, and physical nutriment. ------------------------- (13) 'Tangible data are omitted from this list because, not being derived matter, they are included in the primaries' (Pm.442). They are described as consisting of three of the four primaries, excluding the water (cohesion) element. 'What is the materiality of the great primaries? It is the tangible-data base and the water-element' (Dhs.663). For the whole list see Dhs. 596, in which (N.B) the heart-base does not appear. See also note 32 Ch. XV, n.15. 26639 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 5:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration hi victor, Not "Atta", but "Atman". They are completely different words. Atman is a vedic/B. Gita/ hindu term. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > Let's me ask this question: > > How do you know that the Buddha used the word "atta"/"self" in his > teaching as a vedic/hindu term? > > Please do investigate further how the word "atta"/"self" is used in > the Buddha's teaching as recorded in the discourses. > > A possible starting point: > > Dhammapada XII > Self > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp/12.html > > Peace, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" > wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > [snip] 26640 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 6:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hi Nori, Then I would ask this question: How do you know the Buddha used the word "atman", a vedic/B.Gita/hindu term, if the Buddha used it in his teaching at all? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hi victor, > > Not "Atta", but "Atman". They are completely different words. > > Atman is a vedic/B. Gita/ hindu term. > > metta, > nori 26641 From: Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi Howard, I don't exactly follow your reasoning here but I suspect you are edging into madhyamaka. If so, as you know, there is no response to that. What can I say? Larry ------------------------ Howard: "I find this model to be enticing, because it is aesthetically pleasing, but probably more so because it plays into my very-much-remaining *sense* of self and thingness. However, I don't believe in this model. This model suggests to me a "consciousness substance" a bit like a liquid, like a vanilla ice cream, into which various add-ons such as cookies, fudge sauce, marshmallow sauce, and so on, are mixed. This is not the way I think about matters. I think, instead, of a series of impersonal cognitive *events*. Each occurrence consists of the knowing of an object in the context of a sense-door activation. The knowing aspect of the event is what we call vi~n~nana, the known aspect is aramanna, the doorway is dvara, and the cooccurrence is phassa. Whether one such event "flows" into the next or whether the process is better described discretely is something I don't know, but is, I think, less important than the event-nature of what is happening as opposed to a substance-nature or thing-nature. At the same time as there is a contact event, other related functions are operative, the so called cetasikas. But it is all a matter of events / functions / operations." 26642 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 6:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hiya Victor and Nori, Victor - I didn't know you were interested in the etymology and meaning of words This could open up a whole new rich field of quote and counter-quote {But would there be room in the archives, one wonders?} But I feel nothing comes close to the Pali Text Societys' Pali- English Dictionary - if you are really interested and can decipher it, you can search and locate where in the Pali Canon the terms were used.(from the fourth line down). http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Attan (p. 22) (m.) & atta (the latter is the form used in compn.) [Vedic atman, not to Gr. a)\nemos = Lat. animus, but to Gr. a)tmo/s steam, Ohg. atum breath, Ags. aepm]. -- I. Inflection. (1) of attan-- (n. stem); the foll. cases are the most freq.: acc. attanan D I.13, 185; S I.24; Sn 132, 451. -- gen. dat. attano Sn 334, 592 etc., also as abl. A III.337 (attano ca parato ca as regards himself and others). -- instr. abl. attana S I.24; Sn 132, 451; DhA II.75; PvA 15, 214 etc. On use of attana see below III.1 C. -- loc. attani S V.177; A I.149 (attani metri causa); II.52 (anattani); III.181; M I.138; Sn 666, 756, 784; Vbh 376 (an°). -- (2) of atta-- (a--stem) we find the foll. cases: acc. attan Dh 379. -- instr. attena S IV.54. -- abl. attato S I.188; Ps I.143; II.48; Vbh 336. nnMeanings. 1. The soul as postulated in the animistic theories held in N India in the 6th and 7th cent. B. C. It is described in the Upanishads as a small creature, in shape like a man, dwelling in ordinary times in the heart. It escapes from the body in sleep or trance; when it returns to the body life and motion reappear. It escapes from the body at death, then continues to carry on an everlasting life of its own. For numerous other details see Rh. D. Theory of Soul in the Upanishads J R A S 1899. Bt. India 251--255. Buddhism repudiated all such theories, thus differing from other religions. Sixteen such theories about the soul D I.31. Seven other theories D I.34. Three others D I.186/7. A "soul" according to general belief was some thing permanent, unchangeable, not affected by sorrow S IV.54 = Kvu 67; Vin I.14; M I.138. See also M I.233; III.265, 271; S II.17, 109; III.135; A I.284; II.164, 171; V.188; S IV.400. Cp. atuman, tuma, puggala, jiva, satta, pana and nama--rupa. nn2. Oneself, himself, yourself. Nom. atta, very rare. S I.71, 169; III.120; A I.57, 149 (you yourself know whether that is true or false. Cp. Manu VIII.84. Here atta comes very near to the European idea of conscience. But conscience as a unity or entity is not accepted by Buddhism) Sn 284; Dh 166, 380; Miln 54 (the image, outward appearance, of oneself). Acc. attanan S I.44 (would not give for himself, as a slave) A I.89; Sn 709. Acc. attan Dh 379. Abl. attato as oneself S I.188; Ps I.143; II.48; Vbh 336. Loc. attani A I.149; III.181; Sn 666, 784. Instr. attana S I.57 = Dh 66; S I.75; II.68; A I.53; III.211; IV.405; Dh 165. On one's own account, spontaneously S IV.307; V.354; A I.297; II.99, 218; III.81; J I.156; PvA 15, 20. In composition with numerals attadutiya himself and one other D II.147; °catuttha with himself as fourth M I.393; A III.36; ° pancama Dpvs VIII.2; °sattama J I.233; °atthama VvA 149 (as atta-- natthama Vv 3413), & °atthamaka Miln 291. nnanatta (n. and predicative adj.) not a soul, without a soul. Most freq. in combn. with dukkha & anicca -- (1) as noun: S III.141 (° anupassin); IV.49; V.345 (°sannin); A II.52 = Ps II.80 (anattani anatta; opp. to anattani atta, the opinion of the micchaditthigata satta); Dh 279; Ps II.37, 45 sq. (°anupassana), 106 (yan aniccan ca dukkhan ca tan anatta); DhA III. 406 (°lakkhana). -- (2) as adj. (pred.): S IV.152 sq.; S IV.166; S IV.130 sq., 148 sq.; Vin I.13 = S III.66 = Nd2 680 Q 1; S III.20 sq.; 178 sq., 196 sq.; sabbe dhamma anatta Vin V.86; S III.133; IV.28, 401. nn--attha one's own profit or interest Sn 75; Nd2 23; J IV.56, 96; otherwise as atta--d--attha, e. g. Sn 284. --atthiya looking after one's own needs Th 1, 1097. --adhipaka master of oneself, self-- mastered A I.150. --adhipateyya selfdependence, self--reliance, independence A I.147. --adhina independent D I.72. --anuditthi speculation about souls S III.185; IV.148; A III.447; Sn 1119; Ps I.143; Vbh 368; MilnQ 146. --anuyogin one who concentrates his attention on himself Dh 209; DhA III.275. --anuvada blaming oneself A II.121; Vbh 376. --unna self--humiliation Vbh 353 (+ att--avanna). -- uddesa relation to oneself Vin III.149 (= attano atthaya), also °ika ibid. 144. --kata self--made S I.134 (opp. para°). --kama love of self A II.21; adj. a lover of "soul", one who cares for his own soul S I.75. --kara individual self, fixed individuality, oneself (cp. ahankara) D I.53 (opp. para°); A III 337 (id.) DA I.160; as nt. at J V.401 in the sense of service (self--doing", slavery) (attakarani karonti bhattusu). --kilamatha self--mortification D III.113; S IV.330; V.421; M III.230. --garahin self--censuring Sn 778. --gutta selfguarded Dh 379. --gutti watchfulness as regards one's self, self-- care A II.72. --ghanna self--destruction Dh 164. --ja proceeding from oneself Dh 161 (papa). --nu knowing oneself A IV.113, cp. D III.252. - -(n)tapa self--mortifying, self--vexing D III.232 = A II.205 (opp. paran°); M I.341, 411; II.159; Pug 55, 56. --danda see atta1. --danta selfrestrained, self--controlled Dh 104, 322. --ditthi speculation concerning the nature of the soul Nd1 107; SnA 523, 527. --dipa relying on oneself, independent, founded on oneself (+ attasarana, opp. anna°) D II.100 = III.42; S V.154; Sn 501 (= attano gune eva attano dipan katva SnA 416). --paccakkha only in instr. °ena by or with his own presence, i. e. himself J V.119. --paccakkhika eye-- witness J V.119. --paccatthika hostile to oneself Vin II.94, 96. -- patilabha acquisition of a personality D I.195 (tayo: olarika, manomaya, arupa). --paritapana self--chastisement, mortification D III.232 = A II.205; M I.341; PvA 18, 30. --paritta charm (protection) for oneself Vin II.110. --paribhava disrespect for one's own person Vbh 353. --bhava one's own nature (1) person, personality, individuality, living creature; form, appearance [cp. Dhs trsl. LXXI and BSk. atmabhava body Divy 70, 73 (°pratilambha), 230; Sp. Av. Ś I.162 (pratilambha), 167, 171] Vin II.238 (living beings, forms); S V.442 (bodily appearance); A I.279 (olarika a substantial creature); II.17 (creature); DhA II.64, 69 (appearance); SnA 132 (personality). -- (2) life, rebirth A I.134 sq.; III.412; [p. 23] DhA II.68; PvA 8, 15, 166 (atita °a former lives). °n pavatteti to lead a life, to live PvA 29, 181. Thus in cpd. patilabha assumption of an existence, becoming reborn as an individual Vin II.185; III.105; D III.231; M III.46; S II.255, 272, 283; III.144; A II.159, 188; III.122 sq. -- (3) character, quality of heart Sn 388 (= citta SnA 374); J I.61. --rupa "of the form of self", self--like only in instr. °ena as adv. by oneself, on one's own account, for the sake of oneself S IV.97; A II.120. --vadha self--destruction S II.241; A II.73. --vada theory of (a persistent) soul D III.230; M I.66; D II.58; S II.3, 245 sq.; III.103, 165, 203; IV.1 sq., 43 sq., 153 sq.; Ps I.156 sq.; Vbh 136, 375. For var. points of an "attavadic" doctrine see Index to Sanyutta Nikaya. --vyabadha personal harm or distress self--suffering, one's own disaster (opp. para°) M I 369; S IV.339 = A I.157; A II.179. --vetana supporting oneself, earning one's own living Sn 24. --sancetana self--perception, self-- consciousness (opp. para°) D III.231; A II.159. --sambhava originating from one's self S I.70; A IV.312; Dh 161 (papa); Th 1, 260. --sambhuta arisen from oneself Sn 272. --sammapanidhi thorough pursuit or development of one's personality A II.32; Sn 260, cp. KhA 132. --sarana see °dipa. --sukha happiness of oneself, self--success Dpvs I.66, cp. II.11. --hita personal welfare one's own good (opp. para°) D III.233; A II.95 sq. --hetu for one's own sake, out of self-- consideration Sn 122; Dh 328. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > Then I would ask this question: > > How do you know the Buddha used the word "atman", a > vedic/B.Gita/hindu term, if the Buddha used it in his teaching at > all? > > Peace, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" > wrote: > > hi victor, > > > > Not "Atta", but "Atman". They are completely different words. > > > > Atman is a vedic/B. Gita/ hindu term. > > > > metta, > > nori 26643 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 8:24pm Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Christine and All, I was hoping someone else would respond to this. ;-) I am not sure that I retain the understanding I had then. Btw, when K. Sujin gave the reply to my enquiry, only Jon was smart enough to detect the fact that I had heard only what I wanted to hear. A lesson which reminded me of the fact that often the Teachings will be interpreted in a way best suited to our preconceptions. Jon questioned and reminded me of Howard's oft used concept of `reification'. What I now understand about this matter is the following: 1. Rupa does have intrinsic qualities of agreeable / disagreeable. 2. Rupa arises and falls in an instant, lasting only as much as 17 citta moments. 3. Vipaka citta being either kusala or akusala is impossible to know. 4. Even if it were determined precisely on seeing `pig's dung' that it is akusala vipaka, and touching it is kusala vipaka, this says nothing about "pig's dung" in and of itself. As `pig's dung' is concept only, whereas the rupas of `softness' and `visible object' are real, but they last only 17 citta moments. Nothing about the experience should give rise to a general idea about `pig's dung' as being agreeable or not, through any particular doorway. As I understand it now, the commentaries mention these examples only to give a general idea with regard to and compare with our normal day- to- day perception of mistaking kusala and akusala reactions for vipaka and for using these to judge the intrinsic worth or not of `things'. In conclusion, there is never a reason to judge the value of anything beyond a particular moment of rise and fall. And considering that moments of vipaka fall away long before we know it, it is useless to even think too much about it, except in terms of general understanding of the way things are, theoretically. To talk about things as though they exist objectively out there not only in the past and in the future, but also in the present, is to reify, and this goes against the true spirit of studying Abhidhamma, I think. Hope I have not been totally off-track, if Sarah or anyone would like to correct me, please do. At least, I am certain that others can add and make this matter more clear. Do you Christine, have anything to add? Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Sukin, Sarah, Jon, Azita, Shakti, Sandra, and All, > > Sukin :-) - I was thinking over when we went to the Kuthodaw Temple > where the Tipitaka is carved on 729 marble slabs, each in its > separate Jedi, arranged in rows according 'Baskets'. I remember 26644 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hello Sukin and All, Sukin - thank you for replying, you could have pretended not to notice. :-) I don't know if you are off-track or not, what you write is helpful for me to mull over - and someone else may help us (if they aren't all pretending not to notice us, that is ;-)). With regard to your 4 points: 1) I disagree. The taste and smell of pig dung would most likely be unpleasant to a human (depending on how 'fresh' it was, I rather like the smell of composted cow manure :-)) - but it may not be unpleasant to the pig, most dung beetles would find it appetising, that goes for earth-worms too, and my dog Rusty would find it a extremely attractive body lotion and afternoon tea snack. Not inherently/intrinsically unpleasant - depends on species and perception. If objects are inherently pleasant or unpleasant, this should be able to be known. Is 'inherent' different to 'intrinsic'? Couldn't we make ANY statement, and add the rider that even though it is true (the bible told me so?) it is impossible to know, ascertain or prove one way or the other? Just take it on blind faith. 2) I don't really know, but it is a refinement of what I understand, and I'm prepared to accept it. 3) I don't understand. Why is it so? Who/what decides? 4) I don't understand - in which case, how can anything be inherently/intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant. Am I winning or losing yet? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Christine and All, > > I was hoping someone else would respond to this. ;-) > I am not sure that I retain the understanding I had then. Btw, when > K. Sujin gave the reply to my enquiry, only Jon was smart enough to > detect the fact that I had heard only what I wanted to hear. A > lesson which reminded me of the fact that often the Teachings will > be interpreted in a way best suited to our preconceptions. > Jon questioned and reminded me of Howard's oft used concept > of `reification'. > What I now understand about this matter is the following: > > 1. Rupa does have intrinsic qualities of agreeable / disagreeable. > 2. Rupa arises and falls in an instant, lasting only as much as > 17 citta moments. > 3. Vipaka citta being either kusala or akusala is impossible to > know. > 4. Even if it were determined precisely on seeing `pig's dung' that > it is akusala vipaka, and touching it is kusala vipaka, this says > nothing about "pig's dung" in and of itself. As `pig's dung' is > concept only, whereas the rupas of `softness' and `visible object' > are real, but they last only 17 citta moments. Nothing about the > experience should give rise to a general idea about `pig's dung' as > being agreeable or not, through any particular doorway. > As I understand it now, the commentaries mention these examples only > to give a general idea with regard to and compare with our normal > day- to- day perception of mistaking kusala and akusala reactions > for vipaka and for using these to judge the intrinsic worth or not > of `things'. > > In conclusion, there is never a reason to judge the value of > anything beyond a particular moment of rise and fall. And > considering that moments of vipaka fall away long before we know it, > it is useless to even think too much about it, except in terms of > general understanding of the way things are, theoretically. To talk > about things as though they exist objectively out there not only in > the past and in the future, but also in the present, is to reify, > and this goes against the true spirit of studying Abhidhamma, I > think. > > Hope I have not been totally off-track, if Sarah or anyone would > like to correct me, please do. At least, I am certain that others > can add and make this matter more clear. Do you Christine, have > anything to add? > > Metta, > > Sukin. 26645 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Sukin (& Chrisine), --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: Sukin:> I was hoping someone else would respond to this. ;-) .... I admit that pigs and dung is not a favourite topic of mine. As I said to Victor, why not lilies instead;-) Btw, I wasn’t following your discussion with Chris on the trip about it, but I don’t think it matters at all who’s right --it’s only mana (conceit) that cares after all-- and how many times we change our tune;-) .... Sukin:>A > lesson which reminded me of the fact that often the Teachings will > be interpreted in a way best suited to our preconceptions. .... This is true and I remember how we discussed another time how we all hear different things, interpret differently and give different summaries of discussions accordingly;-) Accumulations! ..... I think all your comments are very good and clear. In summary, only an omniscient Buddha would know whether the object experienced now through the senses is inherently desirable or not. All we can say is that kusala vipaka experiences desirable/pleasant objects and akusala vipaka experiences undesirable/unpleasant objects. Examples of pig and dung and so on are given as general examples only. Thinking and speculating or trying to further calculate whether the rupa experienced now is desirable or not is won’t help understanding develop. (Chris, I also touched on this topic in one of my earlier Myanmar summaries). I’ll leave you both to continue this discussion now and look for some lilies or more desirable objects;-) Metta, Sarah p.s It reminds me a little of a qu I raised about prompted and unprompted vipaka cittas. It’s true that results of prompted (sasa’nkhaarika) kammas are prompted vipaka cittas and results of unprompted (asa’nkhaarika) kammas are unprompted vipaka cittas, but as it can never be known which kind of vipaka cittas they are, there’s no use speculating about it. ==================== Sukin:> 1. Rupa does have intrinsic qualities of agreeable / disagreeable. > 2. Rupa arises and falls in an instant, lasting only as much as > 17 citta moments. > 3. Vipaka citta being either kusala or akusala is impossible to > know. > 4. Even if it were determined precisely on seeing `pig's dung' that > it is akusala vipaka, and touching it is kusala vipaka, this says > nothing about "pig's dung" in and of itself. As `pig's dung' is > concept only, whereas the rupas of `softness' and `visible object' > are real, but they last only 17 citta moments. Nothing about the > experience should give rise to a general idea about `pig's dung' as > being agreeable or not, through any particular doorway. > As I understand it now, the commentaries mention these examples only > to give a general idea with regard to and compare with our normal > day- to- day perception of mistaking kusala and akusala reactions > for vipaka and for using these to judge the intrinsic worth or not > of `things'. 26646 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 2:41am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Sukin, Christine, Sarah, Howard and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > I was hoping someone else would respond to this. ;-) > I am not sure that I retain the understanding I had then. Btw, when > K. Sujin gave the reply to my enquiry, only Jon was smart enough to > detect the fact that I had heard only what I wanted to hear. A > lesson which reminded me of the fact that often the Teachings will > be interpreted in a way best suited to our preconceptions. > Jon questioned and reminded me of Howard's oft used concept > of `reification'. > What I now understand about this matter is the following: > > 1. Rupa does have intrinsic qualities of agreeable / disagreeable. > 2. Rupa arises and falls in an instant, lasting only as much as > 17 citta moments. > 3. Vipaka citta being either kusala or akusala is impossible to > know. > 4. Even if it were determined precisely on seeing `pig's dung' that > it is akusala vipaka, and touching it is kusala vipaka, this says > nothing about "pig's dung" in and of itself. As `pig's dung' is > concept only, whereas the rupas of `softness' and `visible object' > are real, but they last only 17 citta moments. Nothing about the > experience should give rise to a general idea about `pig's dung' as > being agreeable or not, through any particular doorway. > As I understand it now, the commentaries mention these examples only > to give a general idea with regard to and compare with our normal > day- to- day perception of mistaking kusala and akusala reactions > for vipaka and for using these to judge the intrinsic worth or not > of `things'. > > In conclusion, there is never a reason to judge the value of > anything beyond a particular moment of rise and fall. And > considering that moments of vipaka fall away long before we know it, > it is useless to even think too much about it, except in terms of > general understanding of the way things are, theoretically. To talk > about things as though they exist objectively out there not only in > the past and in the future, but also in the present, is to reify, > and this goes against the true spirit of studying Abhidhamma, I > think. > > Hope I have not been totally off-track, if Sarah or anyone would > like to correct me, please do. At least, I am certain that others > can add and make this matter more clear. Do you Christine, have > anything to add? I guess I have to take responsibility for the way this thread has gone. On October 9th (message 25947), I first raised the question of inherent characteristics of rupa. The following day, I followed up with a lengthy quote from Sammohavinodani (The Dispeller of Delusion) on the subject that included the example of dung-eating pigs (message 25968). There ensued a lively discussion between Howard, Sarah and I on this issue. Sukin, your four points listed above perfectly match my understanding. My understanding is also that if you are attracted to an object that is inherently undesireable, then this is defined as a "perversion of perception" (it words the opposite way as well). Metta, Rob M :-) 26647 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi RobM, It’s great to read your posts which show your interest in accumulations and conditions - all heping us to understand anatta further;-) Your post to Christine contained so much excellent detail, but as you usual there are a few points I’d like to discuss further;-) --- robmoult wrote: <...> >After so many existences, there are an > uncountable number of past seeds ready to mature at any instant. > Which one matures at this particular instant? There are many other > factors which act as conditions. The 24 conditions of the Patthana > cover mind as a condition for mind, mind as a condition for > mind/matter, mind as a condition for matter, matter as a condition > for mind, concepts/mind/matter as a condition for mind and > mind/matter as a condition for mind/matter. .... Nicely summarised. .... >Please note that the 24 > conditions do not cover matter as a condition for matter; ... I was somewhat puzzled by this before and was sure I must be being dense about something. As I understand, the 24 conditions cover all the ways that realities are conditioned. As we know, rupas are produced by kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature and rupas in a kalapa are a condition for each other. I think Nissaya Paccaya (dependence condition) is significant here. It is by this condition that the 4 great elements (solidity, cohesion, heat and motion) condition each other and condition the derived rupas. eg U Narada p32 under Nissaya Paccaya: “The great primary, hardness, as base, is related to the remaining three great primaries. This is conascence-dependence condition which has the nature of base....” VismX1, 109 discusses how the 4 great elements condition one another etc too. (Also see Nina’s books on Rupas and Conditions). Also by Ahara Paccaya (nutriment condition), nutritive essence (ojaa) sustains the rupas of the body. It’s present in food and is necessary for new rupas to be produced. In fact it’s present in all groups of rupas as one of the 8 ‘inseperable rupas’, both in the body and outside. The external ojaa is an essential support for the ojaa in the rupas in the body to produce new rupas. Also by presence condition (atthi paccaya) physical life faculty is related to kamma produced rupas, always present in these groups.. I’m sure we could find other examples. I’m curious about whether I’ve missed something or where your comment comes from. <...> >The Buddha also made it clear that > the detailed workings of kamma were an "unknowable". ... Good point! <...> > In brief, vipaka is not all of the moments; vipaka is one of the > many conditions which cause what happens to us to arise. Our > reactions and our emotions are not vipaka, they are javana. .... Yes, I think this needs stressing. Usually what we refer to as ‘emotions’ are many, many moments of thinking accompanied by various kilesa (defilements) I think. .... <...> > You were hungry; this is another condition at work that would not be > included in the patthana. .... I think the various rupas experienced through the body-sense (i.e heat, motion, solidity), the thinking about food and hunger, the accompanying mental states, are all included in the conditions which accumulated and brought about various results or conditioned states. ..... > > All of these conditions (vipaka - being at the dinner, natural > decisive support - attracted to red desert jelly, hungry) caused you > to put the stuff in your mouth. There was attachment to taste > followed by a craving to classify the taste. These cravings were > condition for you to ask what it was (speech intimation). > > When the reply came, you organized the sounds into words; you then > passed a judgement on the concept (i.e. yuck!) and mental > proliferation took over. > > You (or others) could easily pick apart my analysis and come up with > another equally plausable explanation; the main message remains the > same - lots of conditions interacting in a complex manner. > > The objective of this analysis is not to determine the specific set > of conditions at work (this is virtually impossible), but to > understand that everything is arising because of conditions, not > because of a "self". .... I think it’s a very helpful summary and example and an excellent conclusion. It reminds me of the description in the sub-commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta (Soma transl p.91) which starts: “Within there is no eater called a self. As stated already, by the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity, only, there is the receiving of food in the bowl; by the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity, only, there is the descent of the hand into the bowl;.......” Again it’s not the details that are important but the development of understanding of namas and rupas as not self. I also like your analogy of the ball in the gravel ...... > If habits are nurtured, accumulations and affinities are formed and > this is how we "steer our mental processes". It will happen > automatically and naturally. Assuming that we spend time radiating > metta (or doing some other forms of meditation), every morning, this > will create gullies and will cause us to be happier / more likely to > see things as they truly are. ..... .....I’m just wondering if there’s a little loop-hole or safety-net here, though;-) A whispering wish perhaps......but I think we have to let it be for now. (Also, I have my misgivings about conclusions from the meditation experiments, but that's for another day for sure;-)). Rob, there was so much I really appreciated in your post. Pls take any comments or queeries I raise as an indication of this appreciation for your contributions here and your sincere interest in Abhidhamma. Metta, Sarah ====== p.s Christine reminded me of the on-line PTS dictionary which I usually forget about as it seemed very limited when I first looked at it. More detail and references for karuna can be found here (hope the link works): http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ddsa/getobject_?HTML.a.0:4860./projects/artfl0/databases/dicos/philologic/pali/IMAGE/ 26648 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Connie (& RobM), Good to see your post and interest in this tricky topic. I'm very grateful to Rob for replying to your post. I think there may have been some confusion: S: > > Anything can be a condition as a result. > > > > C: > > Anything but kiriya can be vipaka? > > ===== Perhaps you took 'as a result' to be referring to vipaka when it really just meant 'therefore';-) I think all Rob's comments and explanations were very clear and useful - I have a few more comments to make on 'balancing' and pakatupanissaya and accumulations, another reply to RobM and maybe on this but I'm out of time for now.... Thanks again for helping and clarifying, Rob. Connie, we'll be very glad if you chip in on these topics more often - thx for the Thai reminders too;-) Metta, Sarah p.s I hope you manage to meet A.Sujin next week - I think it'll just depend whether she's in Bkk or Kaeng Krajan on that day. Keep us posted! ========================== 26649 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 0:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/4/03 9:26:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I don't exactly follow your reasoning here but I suspect you are edging > into madhyamaka. If so, as you know, there is no response to that. What > can I say? > > Larry > ============================ Funny, I somehow feel that my position is closer to Theravada and yours to Mahayana, or at least a sort of Vedantized Mahayana. Well, at least we each know that Mahayana (whatever that actually is) is BAAAD, right?? ;-)) With naughty, heterodox metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26650 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi again, Larry - In a message dated 11/5/03 8:15:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... just wrote: > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 11/4/03 9:26:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... > > writes: > > >Hi Howard, > > > >I don't exactly follow your reasoning here but I suspect you are edging > >into madhyamaka. If so, as you know, there is no response to that. What > >can I say? > > > >Larry > > > ============================ > Funny, I somehow feel that my position is closer to Theravada and > yours to Mahayana, or at least a sort of Vedantized Mahayana. > > =================================== I just reread your original post to see why I thought you were approving a non-Theravadin position. You, yourself, described it as non-Theravadin. What you had written was the following: > In other, non-Theravada > traditions consciousness is likened to a crystal that takes on the > characteristics of whatever it touches. A crystal on a piece of red > cloth is colored red. In the same way, consciousness OF red is red > consciousness and consciousness WITH anger is angry consciousness. > This way of understanding consciousness makes sense to me and it > seems to make sense out of the 121 kinds of consciousness, which > otherwise are not different kinds of consciousness but different > combinations of cetasikas and rupas. My point was that this non-theravadin position - and truly, the source alone neither makes it good nor bad - likens consciousness not to a stream or sequence of events, but more to an continually present liquid in which other things float through, or a persisting background movie screen on which images play. I see that as a substantialist view with conciousness as "self". As I see it, the liquid is missing, the screen is missing - in Zen terms, if you like, there is no mirror and no mirror-stand, nothing to polish. What we take for the screen is merely superimposed concept. With orthodox, approved metta ;-)), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26651 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have Hi Thomas & All, I liked this reminder in one of your posts: --- nordwest wrote: >Family > is nice, and friends, and lovers ... but we come alone, and depart > alone. .... It reminded me that on our recent trip we discussed how it's always 'crowded' when there is no awareness, but when there is awareness, there's no crowd, no self, no people at all. This is the meaning of 'viveka' (detachment, seclusion) and living alone. We can go to a secluded place, but if there's no understanding of realities, there won't be any development of awareness or wisdom. We also discussed how when there's thinking about another 'place' or 'time' or 'lifestyle', it can be like an excuse to delay the understanding of the present moment and there's no awareness at these times. We were reminded to 'develop understanding and (then) you don't have to think much about place and situation'. I look forward to more of your comments. Metta, Sarah p.s Thomas & Molly, would you kindly make it clear who you are addressing in your posts - even if it's 'All'. Everyone, pls remember to trim posts too;-) ================================== 26652 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Ignorance I. Dear Sarah, Long ago A. Sujin said to me: the akusala is worse when there is more ignorance. That made me think. We had discussions on the Pali list. I can post my conversation with a Brasilian friend, Michael. Rob K and others also took part . op 04-11-2003 11:13 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: >> The king said: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the >> greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one >> who does evil unknowingly?? >> The elder replied: "Indeed, great king, for him who >> does evil not knowing is the greater demerit. > I wonder if you or anyone else has > more detail or explanation on this as it tends to recur. Nina quotes: op 01-11-2003 17:45 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > > On the surface this seems like a very easy question but in fact it is very > complex. ..... the answer to your question is no, someone who has not heard the > Dhamma and commits an akusala deed is in a better position than someone who > knows the Dhamma.... N: It is complex. Let us go to the roots of all akusala. There are three akusala hetus or roots which are the foundation of akusala citta. I do not know the Portuguese word for root, in French it is racine. The three are: lobha (greed) dosa (aversion or hate) and moha (ignorance or delusion). Another word for moha is avijjaa. There are akusala cittas rooted in moha and lobha, rooted in moha and dosa and rooted in moha alone. But all akusala cittas have moha as their root. Dhammapada vs 251: <...there is no net like delusion>, and in the Ch on taints, vs. 243:... We become entangled in ignorance, it is like a net. Ignorance is not knowing realities as they are, not knowing what is kusala, what is akusala, not knowing the four noble Truths. It is like blindness, like darkness. There are different intensities, degrees of the akusala hetus. When the degree of moha is stronger, there is a higher degree of akusala. The akusala hetu that arises together with the citta conditions the accompanying mental factors (cetasikas) and the citta. It motivates different degrees of unwholesome deeds. I could recommend the Wheel, no 251-253, by Ven. Nyanaponika: "the Roots of Good and Evil ". M: we should remember > that the workings of kamma can be very complex and just as a reminder look > at the Lonaphala Sutta (AN III.99). N: Yes, only a Buddha thoroughly penetrates the workings of kamma and result. This sutta is very complex, but does not contradict the fact that more ignorance conditions the akusala to be more intense. Decisive here is leading the holy life. The Buddha teaches here about being in the cycle and going out of the cycle, the commentary states. M: Now the question becomes really complex when you throw in the skilful > means’ so highly praised in the Mahayana tradition. And using a skilful > means interpretation of a certain deed, what apparently would be an akusala > deed could be regarded as kusala. And this really opens the door for any > actions to be interpreted anyway you want and to atribute any kamma > consequences you want. N: Then there is more and more ignorance, as I see it. Metta is always kusala, violence is always akusala. Nobody in the world can change akusala into kusala. Nina. (will be continued) 26653 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 10:00am Subject: FW: Subco to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 22B Subco to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 22B Subcommentary (by Dhammapaala): Commentary passage relevant to the Subcommentary: idaanissa taadibhaavalakkha.na.m aacikkhanto pathaviisamantiaadimaaha. Now he said, when explaining the characteristic of such nature (of the highest qualification), ³like the earth² and so on. i.t.thaani.t.thesu hi arajjanto adussanto taadii naama hoti. not being attached nor having aversion with regard to the desirable and the undesirable is called ³suchness². Text Subcommentary: 119. taadibhaavo naama ni.t.thitakiccassa hoti, aya~nca vipassana.m anuyu~njati, Someone who has completed the task is called ³of such nature², and he practises insight; atha kimattha.m taadibhaavataa vuttaati? and then, for what purpose was the nature of suchness spoken of? pathaviisamataadilakkha.naacikkha.naahi vipassanaaya sukhappavattiattha.m. The explanation of the characteristic of (development) like the earth and so on has as purpose a happy course of insight. tenaaha ``i.t.thaani.t.thesuu''tiaadi. Therefore he says, ³with regard to the desirable and the undesirable² and so on. gahetvaati kusalappavattiyaa okaasadaanavasena pariggahetvaa. As to the expression, after he has mastered them, this means, after he has thoroughly comprehended them, because of the opportunity that was given for a skilful course of action. **** English: Someone who has completed the task is called ³of such nature², and he practises insight; and then, for what purpose was the nature of suchness spoken of? The explanation of the characteristic of (development) like the earth and so on has as purpose a happy course of insight. Therefore he says, ³with regard to the desirable and the undesirable² and so on. As to the words, after he has mastered them, this means, after he has thoroughly comprehended them, because of the opportunity that was given for a skilful course of action. ******* Nina. 26654 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Chiangmai / Pai Dear Azita, What you say here is very important. Where did you go in the North, and were there special groups of people you met? Special temples? I would like to hear more details, also about the discussions. Nina. op 04-11-2003 01:45 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > The arising of r.u. must be as natural as the arising of seeing, > hearing, liking, disliking. It cannot be any other way... The clinging to wanting r.u. is very, very > subtle - I like Tan Achan's 'whispering lobha'. I think the desire > for r.u. can also be very gross. 26655 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi Larry, op 04-11-2003 01:16 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > In a previous discussion you and Rob > explained that consciousness is just pure consciousness. I took this to > mean that there is no difference between consciousness of light or > consciousness of sound or consciousness with ignorance or consciousness > with wisdom as far as the consciousness itself is concerned. Could you > explain again what you mean by pure consciousness or pure awareness? N: This is said only in order to differentiate citta from cetasikas. But cetasikas conditon the citta. Seeing is different from hearing, they have different objects. But citta's task is cognizing an object. L If you don't think the sameness of consciousness accounts for the > impression that the consciousness khandha gives that "a person comes and > goes with the same mind", then how does consciousness give this > impression? N: I do not understand this qu. But when you believe there is the same mind, it is wrong view. And we are under this impression, aren't we? Nina 26656 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 10:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hi Christine, Etymology and meaning of words in and of itself can be interesting; however, regarding the matter of the usage of the word "atta"/"self", my concern is primarily on what the Buddha taught and understanding it as it is. Thank you for providing the definitions of the word "self", which provides many references regarding the word in the discourses. It would be helpful to look into how the word "atta"/"self" is used in the discourses, without getting into construing or delineating what self is. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hiya Victor and Nori, [snip] 26657 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi, Nina & Larry - In a message dated 11/5/03 1:09:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Larry, > op 04-11-2003 01:16 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > In a previous discussion you and Rob > >explained that consciousness is just pure consciousness. I took this to > >mean that there is no difference between consciousness of light or > >consciousness of sound or consciousness with ignorance or consciousness > >with wisdom as far as the consciousness itself is concerned. Could you > >explain again what you mean by pure consciousness or pure awareness? > N: This is said only in order to differentiate citta from cetasikas. But > cetasikas conditon the citta. > Seeing is different from hearing, they have different objects. But citta's > task is cognizing an object. > L If you don't think the sameness of consciousness accounts for the > >impression that the consciousness khandha gives that "a person comes and > >goes with the same mind", then how does consciousness give this > >impression? > N: I do not understand this qu. But when you believe there is the same mind, > it is wrong view. And we are under this impression, aren't we? > Nina > =============================== This discussion is exactly the sort of thing that motivates my understanding of a contact as primary and of vi~n~nana, aramanna, and dvara as co-occurring aspects of that event. Seeing is visual contact - it is consciousness of visual object via the eye door. There is no seeing until the co-occurence of consciousness, visual object (as object of that consciousness), and eye-door activation (as medium for that seeing). Seeing is different from hearing because visual object and eye door are different from (heard) sound and ear door. And the consciousness aspect of a seeing is different from the consciousness aspect of a hearing, but only because these conscousnesses do not occur in isolation as independent phenomena but each as an aspect of a contact-event, and thus in relation to that event and to its other two aspects. If these consciousnesses were viewed, each, as independent, primary phenomena, then given their always being nothing but the function of being aware, one could properly say,as Larry does, that they are "the same". But they, in fact, never occur on their own. They only occur as aspects of seeings, hearings, tastings, feelings, or cognizings, all of which are contacts. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26658 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 0:04pm Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hello RobM, Sukin, Sarah, RobK and all, RobM - thanks for pointing me to your post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/25947 and the discussion that followed on. I hadn't read them before - tend to skip some of the more esoteric discussions. Sorry to say I still don't see that any object can be inherently/intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant. Nor that the standard measure should be what any particular species prefers. Is it possible that people are ignoring what they actually experience in daily life, and what they can deduce from it by ordinary commonsense, while trying to force experiences to fit whatever the commentaries say? Anyway - I expect there isn't anymore that can be said - maybe I should just concentrate on the suttas, ordinary language, ordinary stories? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Sukin, Christine, Sarah, Howard and All, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" > wrote: > > I was hoping someone else would respond to this. ;-) > > I am not sure that I retain the understanding I had then. Btw, > when > > K. Sujin gave the reply to my enquiry, only Jon was smart enough > to > > detect the fact that I had heard only what I wanted to hear. A > > lesson which reminded me of the fact that often the Teachings will > > be interpreted in a way best suited to our preconceptions. > > Jon questioned and reminded me of Howard's oft used concept > > of `reification'. > > What I now understand about this matter is the following: > > > > 1. Rupa does have intrinsic qualities of agreeable / disagreeable. > > 2. Rupa arises and falls in an instant, lasting only as much as > > 17 citta moments. > > 3. Vipaka citta being either kusala or akusala is impossible to > > know. > > 4. Even if it were determined precisely on seeing `pig's dung' > that > > it is akusala vipaka, and touching it is kusala vipaka, this says > > nothing about "pig's dung" in and of itself. As `pig's dung' is > > concept only, whereas the rupas of `softness' and `visible object' > > are real, but they last only 17 citta moments. Nothing about the > > experience should give rise to a general idea about `pig's dung' > as > > being agreeable or not, through any particular doorway. > > As I understand it now, the commentaries mention these examples > only > > to give a general idea with regard to and compare with our normal > > day- to- day perception of mistaking kusala and akusala reactions > > for vipaka and for using these to judge the intrinsic worth or not > > of `things'. > > > > In conclusion, there is never a reason to judge the value of > > anything beyond a particular moment of rise and fall. And > > considering that moments of vipaka fall away long before we know > it, > > it is useless to even think too much about it, except in terms of > > general understanding of the way things are, theoretically. To > talk > > about things as though they exist objectively out there not only > in > > the past and in the future, but also in the present, is to reify, > > and this goes against the true spirit of studying Abhidhamma, I > > think. > > > > Hope I have not been totally off-track, if Sarah or anyone would > > like to correct me, please do. At least, I am certain that others > > can add and make this matter more clear. Do you Christine, have > > anything to add? > > I guess I have to take responsibility for the way this thread has > gone. On October 9th (message 25947), I first raised the question of > inherent characteristics of rupa. The following day, I followed up > with a lengthy quote from Sammohavinodani (The Dispeller of > Delusion) on the subject that included the example of dung-eating > pigs (message 25968). There ensued a lively discussion between > Howard, Sarah and I on this issue. > > Sukin, your four points listed above perfectly match my > understanding. My understanding is also that if you are attracted to > an object that is inherently undesireable, then this is defined as > a "perversion of perception" (it words the opposite way as well). > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 26659 From: nordwest Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 9:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - Dear Sarah, I think a detached attitude brings also happier families and partnerships. Clinging to partners and loved ones always brings trouble and stress. If we see everyone as a "pleasant guest" in our life, we may also have constantly more respect before them and less feeling of "to possess someone". We are together, and then we have to part again, this is not sad at all. It's just natural like the seasons. What is sad is a human lifetime not used to do good, and to make spiritual progress. Gassho, Thomas Sarah wrote: Hi Thomas & All, I liked this reminder in one of your posts: --- nordwest wrote: >Family > is nice, and friends, and lovers ... but we come alone, and depart > alone. .... 26660 From: Larry Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 1:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Howard: "What we take for the screen is merely superimposed concept." Hi Howard, This is what I thought was madhyamaka. I wasn't accusing you of advocating a non-Buddhist position, just not leaving me with any possible reply that wasn't _merely_ conceptual. I researched "contact" a little, using Nyanatiloka and his references and CMA, and found that it is both "concurrence" and "impingement". I don't see a problem with that and the crystal simile. Although it is a little difficult for me to see how either aspect of this event can be a cetasika. I would think most or all other kinds of "event" are conceptual. Translating "sense contact" as "sense impression" it is possible to interpret phassa as a kind of image, but I haven't seen anyone interpret it that way. The question is, what happens when consciousness meets object? I haven't read anywhere in Theravada that consciousness is ever transformed. So that would be a strike against the crystal idea. Still, I believe you are on-board with the idea that consciousness is pure. "Pure" sure sounds like "crystal" to me. Do you have any thoughts on the nature of this meeting beyond saying that it is a meeting? Larry 26661 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 2:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > p.s I hope you manage to meet A.Sujin next week - I think it'll just > depend whether she's in Bkk or Kaeng Krajan on that day. Keep us posted! > ========================== Ahh, its just accumulations (my desire to meet her) and conditions (A. Sujin's schedule) at work again! :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 26662 From: Larry Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 2:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: >> L If you don't think the sameness of consciousness accounts for the > > impression that the consciousness khandha gives that "a person comes and > > goes with the same mind", then how does consciousness give this > > impression? > N: I do not understand this qu. But when you believe there is the same mind, > it is wrong view. And we are under this impression, aren't we? > Nina Hi Nina, Here's the commentary: Spk: Consciousness is like a magical illusion (maayaa) in the sense that it is insubstantial and cannot be grasped. Consciousness is even more transient and fleeting than a magical illusion. For it gives the impression that a person comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind, but the mind is different in each of these activities. Consciousness deceives the multitude like a magical illusion. Larry: How does consciousness give the impression that "a person comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind"? I proposed that it was because of the fundamental sameness of consciousness, but perhaps this isn't right. I agree there are problems with this. What is your idea? Larry 26663 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 2:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Sarah, I was wrong. The Abhidhammatthasangaha groups the 24 conditions as mind as a condition for mind, mind as a condition for mind/matter, mind as a condition for matter, matter as a condition for mind, concepts/mind/matter as a condition for mind and mind/matter as a condition for mind/matter. I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I would have noticed that there are some cases of matter acting as a condition for matter included. > > As I understand, the 24 conditions cover all the ways that realities are > conditioned. Is the list truly exhasutive? Do the 24 conditions really cover ALL of the ways that realities are conditioned? Metta, Rob M :-) 26664 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 2:47pm Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Sorry to say I > still don't see that any object can be inherently/intrinsically > pleasant or unpleasant. Nor that the standard measure should be what > any particular species prefers. Is it possible that people are > ignoring what they actually experience in daily life, and what they > can deduce from it by ordinary commonsense, while trying to force > experiences to fit whatever the commentaries say? > Anyway - I expect there isn't anymore that can be said - maybe I > should just concentrate on the suttas, ordinary language, ordinary > stories? I had been wrestling with this issue (intrinsic quality of rupa) in the back the back of my mind for a couple of years. For me, the breakthrough came when my engineering mind analyzed the sense door citta process. In this citta process, after the sense- door adverting citta, there will arise a set of three cittas (sense- door consciousness, receiving, investigating). These three cittas can be either "kusala vipaka" or "akusala vipaka". The question arises, "what is the condition that would cause kusala vipaka to arise rather than akusala vipaka?" I realized that it must be the inherent quality of the rupa that determines which path is taken. This was my aha! moment. I read further that there were actually three classifications of rupa; undesireable, desireable and extremely desireable. I then noticed that there were three types of investigating citta; akusala, kusala with neutral feeling and kusala with pleasant feeling. I thought to myself, "By George, I think he's got it!" and I paraded around like a puffed-up peacock. I then realized that this was a somewhat obscure point in the Abhidhamma that had virtually no impact on correct practice or right thought (that brought me back down to earth). I hope that this helps. If you still have problems with this issue, I don't think that you should have any qualms about filing it under "I will sort that out later, perhaps in my next life." I certainly don't recommending ruminating on it for a couple of years as I did. Metta, Rob M :-) 26665 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 5:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/5/2003 4:50:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > The question is, what happens when consciousness meets object? I > haven't read anywhere in Theravada that consciousness is ever > transformed. So that would be a strike against the crystal idea. ---------------------------- Howard: There is no consciousness to *be* transformed. A consciousness, a sense-door activation, and the object of that consciousness via that sense door all arise at the very same time. And that occasion is the occasion of so-called contact. They co-arise, constituting the event that is contact. --------------------------- > Still, I believe you are on-board with the idea that consciousness is > pure. "Pure" sure sounds like "crystal" to me. Do you have any > thoughts on the nature of this meeting beyond saying that > it is a > meeting? ---------------------------- Howard: I think that the terminology of "meeting" or "coming together", while perfectly good ordinary usage, and used by the Buddha, is misleading. None of the three exists prior to the moment of contact. As far as consciousness being "pure", that can have several quite different meanings. One of these is that consciousness is not intrinsically defiled. Defilements accompanying consciousness are adventitious. This is a sense of consciousness being pure that I am on-board with. Another meaning is that consciousness per se is nothing more than the awareness aspect of any experience, as opposed to the content of that experience (the object) and the sense door activated (the medium). That's fine too. Other possible meanings may suggest consciousness as not being a function or event or aspect of an event, but of being some sort of substance which, from the Dhammic perspective, is erroneous. BTW, I think we can go overboard in our attempts at precision in our definitions and categorizations. For example, where does contact fit in? Abhidhamma says it is a cetasika, which makes it just a concomitant to vi~n~nana. In the five-aggregate approach of the suttas, the only place to fit it in would be as a sankhara, which would agree with the cetasika characterization. But, it seems to fit in the 18-fold scheme of sense object, sense door, sense consciousness scheme, with each triple being a contact event. Or does it not fit into this last scheme at all? Problems, eh? But why should we care? To me, what is most important is the tilakkhana, and the means to realize them. With metta, Howard 26666 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 5:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 34, 35, 36 35. Herein (a) "primary materiality" is of four kinds as the earth element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, 87, 93); but as to the proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444] ---------------------------- Ch. XI 87. 1. Herein, one who gives his attention to them [elements] "as to word meaning" should do so separetly and generally thus: [separately] it is earth (pathavii) because it is spread out (pattha.ta); it flows (appoti) or it glides (aapiyati) or it satisfies (appaayati), thus it is water (aapo); it heats (tejati), thus it is fire (tejo); it blows (vaayati), thus it is air vaayo). But without differentiation they are elements (dhaatu) beacuse of bearing (dhaara.na) their own characteristics, because of grasping (aadaana) suffering, and because of sorting out (aadhaana) suffering (see Ch. XV, 19). (29) This is how they should be given attention as to word meaning. (29) ' "Because of bearing their own characteristics": these are not like the Primordial Elements (pakati--Skr. prakrti) and the self (attaa) imagined by the theorists, which are non-existent as to individual essence. On the contrary these do bear their own characteristics, which is why they are elements' (pm. 359). Capitals have been used here and elsewhere though Indian alphabets do not justify it. "Appaayati" 'to satisfy' is not in P.T.S. Dict.; see VbhA.p. Ch. XI 93. 4. "As to characteristic", etc.: he should advert to the four elements in this way: 'The earth element--what are its characteristic, function, manifestation?, [defining them in this way]: The earth element has the characteristic of hardness. Its function is to act as a foundation. It is manifested as receiving. The water element has the characteristic of trickling. Its function is to intensify. It is manifested as holding together. The fire element has the characteristic of heat. Its function is to mature (maintain). It is manifested as a continued supply of softnss. The air element has the characteristic of distending. Its fuction is to cause motion. It is manifested as conveying. (37) This is how they should be given attention by characteristic, and so on. [366] (37) "Abhiniihara"--'conveying': not in this sense in P.T.S. Dict. ' "Conveying" is acting as cause for the successive arising at adjacent locations (desantaruppatti) of the conglomeration of elements (bhuuta-sa.nghaata)' (Pm.363). Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air element: ' "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362). 26667 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 2:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi, Rob (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/5/03 5:52:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > I was wrong. > > The Abhidhammatthasangaha groups the 24 conditions as mind as a > condition for mind, mind as a condition for mind/matter, mind as a > condition for matter, matter as a condition for mind, > concepts/mind/matter as a condition for mind and mind/matter as a > condition for mind/matter. > > I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for > matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I would > have noticed that there are some cases of matter acting as a > condition for matter included. > > > > >As I understand, the 24 conditions cover all the ways that > realities are > >conditioned. > > Is the list truly exhasutive? Do the 24 conditions really cover ALL > of the ways that realities are conditioned? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > > ============================= And what if the Abhidhamma *didn't* give "matter" as a condition for "matter"? Don't you know directly for yourself that motion, a rupa, can be a condition (via friction) for heat, a rupa, and can be a condition (via evaporation) for coolness, a rupa? Which would you choose: what you know for yourself to be true, or what is said to be true in some book? (If you answer that some people know for themselves that there is a self, I would answer that they only think they know it, but do not know it. ;-) With metta, and annoying questions! ;-)), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26668 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 8:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Howard: "To me, what is most important is the tilakkhana, and the means to realize them." Hi Howard, I agree. FYI, here is Nyanatiloka's definition of phassa: phassa (fr. phusati, to touch): 'sense-impression', contact. The term samphassa is used in compounds, e.g. in the following: '"T'here are 6 classes of sense-impression: visual impression (cakkhu-samphassa), impressions of hearing, smelling, tasting, bodily (tactile) impression and mental impression" (M. 9). A twofold division occurs in D. 15: patigha (q.v.) -samphassa, impression by sensorial reaction', and adhivacana-samphassa, verbal (or conceptual, i.e. mental) impression'. Phassa does not signify physical impact, but is one of the 7 constant mental concomitants of consciousness (cetasika) and belongs to the group of mental formations (sankhára-kkhandha). In lists of both these categories it is generally mentioned first (e.g. Dhs. 1: M. 9), due to its fundamental position in the cognitive process In M. 18 it is thus defined: "Dependent on the eye and the forms, eye-consciousness arises; the coming-together of the three is sense-impression" (similarly stated in the case of the other 5 senses, including mind). In the dependent origination, it is conditioned by the six sense-bases and is a conditioning factor of feeling (s. paticca-samuppáda 5, 6). Its relation to mind-and-body (náma-rúpa) is described in D. 15, and its influence on feeling and wrong views, in D. 1 (at the end). - It is one of the 4 nutriments (áhára, q.v.), and the first factor in the pentad of sense-impression (phassa-pañcamaka), together with feeling, perception, volition and consciousness (see Abh. St., p. 47ff ). Being a key function in the mind's contact with the world of objects and being a potential source of defilements, sense-impression is an important subject for reflective insight contemplation as succinctly formulated in many verses of the Sn.: 736/7, 778, 851, 870/72, 923. http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm Larry 26669 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 8:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi again Nina, I think I have a better idea than the one I had before re: Spk: Consciousness is like a magical illusion (maayaa) in the sense that it is insubstantial and cannot be grasped. Consciousness is even more transient and fleeting than a magical illusion. For it gives the impression that a person comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind, but the mind is different in each of these activities. Consciousness deceives the multitude like a magical illusion. L: Many of any kind of phenomena close together seem like one even if the phenomena are vastly different. In the case of consciousness, multitudes of moments of consciousness arise one after another and give the impression that "a person comes and goes, stands and sits with the same mind". The impression of "the same mind" is due to the extreme proximity of many moments of consciousness even though the moments are different and very "fleeting". Better? Larry 26670 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 8:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Rob: "I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I would have noticed that there are some cases of matter acting as a condition for matter included." Hi Rob, Is the air element considered to be a condition for the arising of rupa in "movement"? Vism. XI 93, note 37: "Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air element: ' "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362)." Larry 26671 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 9:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Howard (and Sarah); --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 11/5/03 5:52:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > I was wrong. > > > > The Abhidhammatthasangaha groups the 24 conditions as mind as a > > condition for mind, mind as a condition for mind/matter, mind as a > > condition for matter, matter as a condition for mind, > > concepts/mind/matter as a condition for mind and mind/matter as a > > condition for mind/matter. > > > > I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for > > matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I would > > have noticed that there are some cases of matter acting as a > > condition for matter included. > > > > > > > >As I understand, the 24 conditions cover all the ways that > > realities are > > >conditioned. > > > > Is the list truly exhasutive? Do the 24 conditions really cover ALL > > of the ways that realities are conditioned? > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) > > > > > > > ============================= > And what if the Abhidhamma *didn't* give "matter" as a condition for > "matter"? Don't you know directly for yourself that motion, a rupa, can be a > condition (via friction) for heat, a rupa, and can be a condition (via > evaporation) for coolness, a rupa? Which would you choose: what you know for yourself > to be true, or what is said to be true in some book? (If you answer that some > people know for themselves that there is a self, I would answer that they only > think they know it, but do not know it. ;-) > This is the crux of my question. I believe that there are many conditions that are not covered by the Patthana. Gravity, friction, electricity, magnetism, nuclear to name a few. I believe that these are not included in the Abhidhamma because they are "not conducive to the holy life, nor do they lead to unbinding (Nibbana)." In other words, they are outside the Buddha's stated scope of interest. These "unlisted conditions" focus on matter as a condition for matter and form the basis for science (physics, chemistry, biology, etc.). These "unlisted conditions" do impact what happens to us (not just vipaka and accumulations). For this reason, trying to analyze in detail the reasons behind what happens to us is futile. What is important is that we recognize that everything arises because of natural conditions; no unseen hand of God or "working of self" behind what happens to us. I am particularly interested in Sarah's understanding that the list of 24 conditions in the Patthana is exhaustive. If she finds a supporting quote in the texts, I will have an issue. Metta, Rob M :-) 26672 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 9:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Is the air element considered to be a condition for the arising of rupa > in "movement"? > > Vism. XI 93, note 37: "Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air element: ' > "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the > conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause > for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling > (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent > locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362)." It is my understanding that the air element is another name for motion or pressure; air element / motion / pressure are the same rupa. Sorry for the short reply, gotta return to a boring meeting. Metta, Rob M :-) 26673 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 10:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Christine, Just a little more to add to RobM’s points on your common-sense comments: --- christine_forsyth wrote: Sorry to say I > still don't see that any object can be inherently/intrinsically > pleasant or unpleasant. .... Remember as Sukin pointed out, we’re talking about realities as usual;-) To give a simpler example, common-sense tells us that if we’re knocked on the head, what is experienced through the body-sense is quite different from when we’re given a gentle massage. As a generalisation, we might say that when knocked, the vipaka cittas experience ‘unpleasant objects’ and when given a gentle massage, ‘pleasant objects’. These are just examples to show that the rupas experienced are not the same at each moment and that some are inherently pleasant/desirable and others are definitely not. If it weren’t so, then the pleasant or desirable ones would not be followed by attachment and the unpleasant or ‘painful’ ones by aversion, but common-sense tells us they usually are. For a masochist, there may be attachment to the unpleasant and so on.....no fixed rule and I’ll leave aside the dogs and pigs for now - again different vipaka and other cittas experiencing different objects, no dogs or pigs in an ultimate sense;-) Many conditions are involved. Whether pleasant or unpleasant rupas are experienced at the times of the knock or massage again depends on many factors, especially the kamma which conditions the vipaka cittas. ..... >Nor that the standard measure should be what > any particular species prefers. .... In truth, there are only moments of sense-door vipaka cittas experiencing rupas, followed by other cittas experiencing the same rupas and later mind-door cittas experiencing concepts about the rupas perhaps. Preferences vary a lot as you say. The taste of ‘jelly’ or a chilli varies from moment to moment and for one set of vipaka cittas to another. We can still give examples of say, ice-cream being a pleasant taste, even though it’s not for many and we cannot pin-point particular moments. Awareness can be aware of the tasting or the sweet taste or the softness or cold, for example, but as soon as there’s an idea of ‘desirable’, it’s thinking about the experience. ..... >Is it possible that people are > ignoring what they actually experience in daily life, and what they > can deduce from it by ordinary commonsense, while trying to force > experiences to fit whatever the commentaries say? ..... The point of looking and considering the texts carefully is that so often we are misled by ignorance and wrong views. For example, we may think we tasted something bad or experienced someting distressing at work or that the food or other people were the cause of that distress. When we begin to understand that there’s no self, that the vipaka citta which sees or hears an object (pleasant or unpleasant) lasts for an instant and then is followed by a string of other cittas in the sense-door process and then many further strings in the mind-door process, we begin to see that the problem is not the seeing or hearing or tasting of an object, but the thinking about it, the importance attached to feelings and sense objects and the accumulated defilements. Without understanding a little more about sense and mind-door processes, it’s impossible, I think, to understand the meaning of guarding the senses and to appreciate the importance of being aware of seeing and visible object and so on. ..... > Anyway - I expect there isn't anymore that can be said - maybe I > should just concentrate on the suttas, ordinary language, ordinary > stories? ...... But what about the understanding when we read the suttas and ordinary stories? Aren’t we inclined to take the people and animals for really being people and animals? RobM mentioned perversion of sanna (sanna vipallasa) when there is attachment to the undesirable and aversion to the desirable. Even when there is attachment to the desirable and aversion to the undesirable (in fact at any unwholesoment moment) there is perversion of sanna and citta - taking what is unsatisfactory for satisfactory, foul for beautiful, impermanent for permanent or non-self for self. Look forward to any further comments. (I hope Sukin hasn't run away;-)) As James would say, if you don't agree, that's OK too. Metta, Sarah ===== 26674 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar5: Equalizing/Balancing/Coupling of Faculties Hi RobM, Thank you for your further helpful comments on this thread which links up nicely with the one on accumulations as you point out. --- robmoult wrote: > > Perhaps the answer links back to the Myanmar4 post, accumulations. > > Every time we do something, it strengthens an accumulation and this > accumulation (together with other accumulations) automatically > directs and controls the mental flow. For example, if one tends to > have many, many moments that are strong in saddha, then this will > create a very strong accumulation towards faith. If there are very > few other moments that are strong in panna, then the accumulation > towards panna will be weak. When such a person (strong saddha > accumulation, weak panna accumulation) faces a situation, the strong > saddha accumulation may "highjack" the mental process and lead it > toward an approach described at a macro-level as "blind faith". ... Well put and I agree that it all comes back to accumulations and pakatupanissaya-paccaya. I mentioned in a post yesterday that there was a discussion on place and time and situation. Of course it’s not self that changes place or job or increases faith, but it’s this condition which leads to certain thoughts and deeds. this is why understanding is so important. ..... > Of course, every kusala citta includes the cetasika saddha. However, > this does not imply that every kusala action has an equal impact on > the accumulation of saddha. Moments that are "strong in saddha" > (deepen the accumulation of saddha) are separate from the moments > that are "strong in panna" (deepen the accumulation of panna). My > interpretation of the texts on Equalizing/Balancing/Coupling of > Faculties is that one must have a balanced approach to developing > accumulations so that the response to all situations is balanced. .... Balanced by the development of satipatthana as I understand and understanding of realities - no need for any idea of ‘one must have a balanced approach’, otherwise self slips in again, I think with an idea of ‘making it balanced’. Of course when we’re talking about the beginning of the development of understanding, it’s not like when stages of insight are reached and a strong level of samatha and vipassana cannot be separated, but are ‘coupled’. .... > At the micro (citta) level, we have the cetasika tatramajjhattata > (literally "remaining here and there in the middle"), which arises > in every kusala citta. This is the balance of citta and cetasikas. > Tatramajjhattata allows an object to be viewed with impartiality. It > affects the balance of the citta and the cetasikas it arises > together with, so that there is neither deficiency nor excess of any > one among them. > > At the macro (accumulations) level, we have the need to balance > accumulations; I gave the example of the need to balance the > spiritual faculties, but as explained by Nyanaponika, accumulations > of the brahmaviharas also need to be balanced. ..... But ‘who’ has the need to balance or tries to balance? I’d rather say that as satipatthana develops, the faculties are balanced already by pakatupanissaya and other conditions. I’m not aware of any references in the texts of a need to balance the brahmaviharas, but I’m happy to be shown any. In any case, no self to balance, just the development of various wholesome states according to conditions and understanding of their characteristics and value. ..... > Sarah, I tend to see accumulations as central to many aspects of the > Dhamma and I continue to be nervous that this subject does not > appear to be given prominence in the texts. > > Comments? .... I think your reflections are very much on the right track (ie. very close to what we’ve been hearing and considering;-)). I think we could take almost any sutta and look at it from the point of view of accumulations and complex conditions. In the Mahagosinga Sutta (MN 32) discussed a few times here, we read about the very varied accumulations of some of the Buddha’s chief disciples - Sariputa, Mogallana, MahaKassapa and Anuruddha. In the Jatakas and other texts like the Buddhavamsa, we read about tendencies and deeds performed over aeons and under previous Buddhas, without which they would not be chief disciples with their particular inclinations, psychic powers and Patisambhidas as arahants at this time. We read in various texts about the conditions for wisdom to accumulate, the necessary stages for it to reach these levels and so on, again by conditions, esp. natural decisive support. As another example, I wrote before about Punna and Isidatta (AN Bk of 6s) who had reached the same level but lived vary different lifestyles - one a seemingly restrained lifestyle, but not the other. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24387 I wrote: >When Ananda repeats the conversation to the Buddha, the Buddha explains their different characters, their different strengths and weaknesses to show that ‘herein Isidatta fares not Purana’s way but another’s.’ He also urges Ananda not to be a ‘measurer of persons; measure not the measure of persons; verily, Ananda, he digs a pit for himnself who measures the measure of persons. I alone, Ananda, can measure their measure - or one like me.’< ***** The more we understand about natural decisive support and other conditions, the more we can appreciate when we read any suttas that they are a description of facts and detailed conditioned realities from past and present causes - no selves, no beings at all. RobM, I may be missing the point of your question, in which case, please explain more and perhaps Nina, RobertK or others may have further comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 26675 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 11:56pm Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Christine, (Rob M, Sarah and All,) I really liked Rob's reply to your other post and I think that it would have changed your perspective a little if not much. But in case you need to hear more and hopefully I don't end up confusing further, I would like to say a little. > 1) I disagree. The taste and smell of pig dung would most likely be > unpleasant to a human (depending on how 'fresh' it was, I rather like > the smell of composted cow manure :-)) - but it may not be unpleasant > to the pig, most dung beetles would find it appetising, that goes for > earth-worms too, and my dog Rusty would find it a extremely > attractive body lotion and afternoon tea snack. Not > inherently/intrinsically unpleasant - depends on species and > perception. If objects are inherently pleasant or unpleasant, this > should be able to be known. Firstly, you need to clearly distinguish concept from reality, in this case `pig dung', and `man', `pig' and `beetle' from `visible object', `smell', `taste', `tangible object' and `seeing', `tasting', `smelling' and `touch'. When you are clear about this distinction, you will not confuse `pig dung' with what is seen, smelt, tasted and touched. So when I say that Rupas have `intrinsic' quality being either pleasant or unpleasant, it is these smells, colour, taste, heat/cold, hard/soft which have them, *not* `pigs dung'. And these Rupas are that which rise and fall in an instant, and not the concept of pig's dung. When this is clear then you can apply Rob's explanation and see that one instant of experiencing smell, or touch or taste will not necessarily be the same, in terms of being either pleasant or unpleasant, as another moment of experience, even when conventionally, the same `thing' is experienced. Pig's dung may be an extreme example, but let's say, seeing a brightly colored rope against an appropriate background (never mind about whether what would actually be the case in reality in terms of mind moments, but take it just for illustration), this will be not unpleasant. But say this rope is seen in the dark from a particular angle and distance that it would look intimidating (even before one `thinks' that it may be a snake), this would be unpleasant. One is kusala vipaka and the other is akusala vipaka and this too in relation to what we conceptually view as the `same person'. In other words even if one smelt some `thing' twice, first time may be pleasant, the second may be unpleasant. And this is to a large extent dependent on which kamma bears fruit. From another point of view consider, that rebirth as a dung-beetle is a result of akusala kamma. This means that kamma is constantly conditioning akusala vipaka, do you think that the taste of the dung in this case be pleasant based on vipaka? Or would that be the result of `perversion of citta'? Yet I do believe that there can be moments of kusala vipaka even for the beetle, but this I think would be very rare compared. > Couldn't we make ANY statement, and add the rider that even though it > is true (the bible told me so?) it is impossible to know, ascertain > or prove one way or the other? Just take it on blind faith. I don't think the Buddha would ever encourage blind faith, so we should be careful. As you know Saddha is more `confidence' than faith as it is generally understood. Saddha increases in direct proportion to understanding. And this understanding starts with pariyatti and increases with every experience of patipatti and finally culminates with pativedha. If the above appeals intellectually, then there is no need to have blind faith. > 2) I don't really know, but it is a refinement of what I understand, > and I'm prepared to accept it. > 3) I don't understand. Why is it so? Who/what decides? Re: To knowing vipaka to be either kusala or akusala. Because only fully developed panna can know this. Even if one has had many moments of satipatthana, to know kusala from akusala in the javana is still close to impossible. And it is after this that one is able to differentiate nama from rupa and then to see the tilakkhana, which means that one is already enlightened. But even at this point, knowing kusala and akusala `vipaka' directly is still a long way to go. > 4) I don't understand - in which case, how can anything be > inherently/intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant. Maybe I should put it this way, visible object for example, is either pleasant or unpleasant as when and if it arises depending on the kamma which has conditioned the vipaka citta. This pleasantness/unpleasantness falls away with the rupa falling away, which is equal to 17 citta moments. That this visible object is conditioned by a rupa out there which we conventionally identify as say `lily', says nothing about that `lily' being inherently pleasant or not. Actually this is what we would do when we reify from the experience through the sense door, first positing a `thing' out there and then this thing as having an `inherent' quality of being pleasant. And then when we consider say, that some being `hates' the sight of it, we have doubt and throw the baby out with the water bath, concluding that there is *no* inherent pleasantness/unpleasantness in the rupa, but that this is purely subjective. But this is because we are still thinking in terms of things out there which lasts, and not as `Rupas' arising and falling in an instant. > Am I winning or losing yet? Can't really say, since I don't even know where I stand. ;-) I have a feeling that I may be adding to the confusion….?! Metta, Sukin Ps: I just saw that Sarah has written a long response, but I'll send this off any way. 26676 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 0:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re: guarding the senses Hi James, Christine & All, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Could be, actually I am seriously considering moving to > Thailand to teach after a year here in Cairo. A year in Cairo is > probably enough for anyone! ;-). Taiwan is a strong possibility > also. Either way I could easily travel to Bangkok and Hong Kong. I > am finding that traveling anywhere other than the Middle East from > Cairo is problematic and expensive. Don't count on me coming to Hong > Kong this year. From what I am reading, it sounds like your get- > togethers in Bangkok are a real hoot! I may not agree with > everything you discuss, but I like a good adventure! ;-) ..... Keep us posted! As for great adventures, you or others might like to consider joining a planned trip with A.Sujin and several bus-loads around the holy places and a few sight-seeing and shopping diversions in India sometime next year - maybe Oct. The first part of the adventure is getting your name down on ‘The List’ now before any details are available;-) I’m sure Nina will be going and I know a few others are planning to. We haven’t even discussed it - if a number of DSGers were going it would add interest for me for sure;-) However, I should say that tolerance for lots of Thai and lots of Pali words in English discussions (even if none of it is understood) would be pretty essential, I think. Do you have any comments, Christine or Azita? Metta, Sarah p.s Chris - I think it’s the weekend of Jan 30th -Feb 1st that some of us hope to be meeting with Nina in Bkk. ====== 26677 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 0:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have Hi Nori (& RobM), I thought Rob's post was very helpful with a good conclusion: --- robmoult wrote: > It depends on accumulations and conditions. Perhaps you will meet > the right life partner and this will be a condition for you to > marry. Perhaps you will not meet a life partner and should remain > single. Single, married, monk or layperson, what is important is > that you study and apply the Dhamma. ..... We see that all threads lead in the same direction;-) Nori, many thanks indeed for putting your 'accumulations' in the member photo album too. Hope others follow this good example of yours and Derek's recently. Metta, Sarah ===== 26678 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Connie, As I mentioned, I think you may have misunderstood sth I didn’t write clearly but in any case I was grateful for all your reminders and comments on vipaka condition and for RobM’s detailed and instructive reply. I was just considering your last qu: --- connie wrote: > Hi Sarah and All, > C: > Do you think all three kinds of upanissaya (decisive support or strong > dependence)-paccaya are/function 'by way of accumulations'? (The 3 being > decisive support of: object - arammanupanissaya, proximity - > anantarupanissaya and natural condition - pakutapanissaya). ..... Like RobM said, I think ‘accumulations’ only refers to the third, but in a way anything is included in it. For example, in decisive support of object, a desirable object is a strong condition for cittas and cetasikas which are inclined towards it. So, for example, inherently desirable rupas, such as particular tastes, may be a ‘decisive support object’ for attachment, but only if attachment is accumulated to want such tastes. I think this is why K.Sujin talks about everything being included in pakatupanissaya, even though different conditions act in different ways. I’m about to say more than I understand. Nina, may be able to add more on this too. If I say more, I’ll just be parrotting from her book on ‘Conditions’, ch 7. I’d be glad if you added any more reflections too - you’ve obviously considered these conditions carefully. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ ..... I've always > thought of accumulations as mental, but can't we also say it's the case > that with something like aging (mii-pokati charoen!), we're talking > about accumulated (effects of the) fire element... > Khanda (nama and rupa) = aggregate = accumulations. .... I think as RobM said, by pakatupanissaya, anything can be an accumulated condition, but it refers to the cittas and cetasikas conditioned. ..... > I hope, btw, that the fires in your limbs are subsiding and you're > experiencing more of the air element, with wise attention, of course. .... Thanks, Connie. All my troublesome limbs are doing really well - enough air element to walk pretty well now and even beginnng to tackle steps. Lots of swimming has made the difference - maybe cooling the fires;-) Metta, Sarah p.s How’s the work on Kom’s Pali glossary going? Let us know off-list if you need any help. =============================== 26679 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 1:33am Subject: More Myanmar stories;-) Hi Suan, --- abhidhammika wrote: > > So I am looking forward to hearing more news trickling down from the > visitors to Myanmar like you and others. ...... It’s a long time not to visit your home country and I hope you can visit back sometime soon, even if fairly briefly and get citizenship later. Nina and another friend asked me to add anything more as well. Perhaps others can keep adding their impressions too. Honestly, Suan, we were only in Myanmar for 4nts, 5days, but I felt we saw a lot. It reminded some of us a lot of Sri Lanka or some thought of Thailand 30 years or so ago. Like Sri Lanka, it has remained very undeveloped and poor while neighbouring countries like Thailand have developed rapidly. But a lot of the beautiful landscapes and stupas can be seen and appreciated in Myanmar as a result of the lack of development on the horizon. Nowhere was crowded, everyone was friendly and it seemed very peaceful everywhere. The first early morning, four of us went up Mandalay hill to the stupa on top and we were the only people there. Later as the group sat under the beautiful and very old tree at Kuthodaw (where the Fifth council covened and carved the Tipitaka onto the marble slabs), to have a dhamma talk, no one disturbed us at all. At Bagan (Pagan), at the Mingkala Stupa, we looked onto the quiet and beautiful Irrawaddy river. I’ve always wanted to travel down it in a slow boat, but somehow as a little understanding of dhamma develops, these other ‘accumulted’ wants become less and less significant. We were there to watch the sunset, but a few of us started a discussion with A.Sujin and after a few moments I’d forgotten entirely about the sunset, the Irrawaddy and Bagan. A.Sujin was talking about how dark citta is - as dark as the first citta of life (patisambhida citta) in the womb. We have an idea that seeing consciousness or other kinds of consciousness are light, but there is only light when visible object appears. She mentioned that there are many more moments of eye-door experiences than other sense doorway experiences and this is why it seems light all the time. In fact the cittas are dark. A very difficult topic that came up several times. We made offerings to the 1,600 monks at Mahagandayon Temple. The bhikkhus in order of seniority seemed to file past forever. They were very well discipined with eyes cast down. I was serving so many with rice, that my fingers became a little burnt and I spilt a little down a bhikkhu’s robe. I was impressed by how he continued as though nothing had happened and without a sideways glance at all. When I do tai-chi here, my teacher always reminds me to keep my glance down and ignore anything around. Dificult for me with accumulations for lots of curiosity (lobha). It was the same when we made offerings to a large number of bhikkhus at a well-known temple outside Yangon where the chief bhikkhu can apparently recite the entire Tipitaka. In Bagan we walked around Scwezigon Pagoda in very unusual heavy rain and Thatbyinyu Stupa (the very tall one). Others too, but I’m already getting them confused. I had a discussion with a friend about paying respect in temples. We have our preferences for temples, stupas and Buddhas, but K.Sujin reminded me a long time ago to reflect on the Buddha’s qualities and not on preferences, otherwise it’ll condition aversion for some images or temples and we’ll forget all about the reasons for paying respect. We had a lovely lunch at a riverside restaurant before catching the flight to Yangon. It’s hard for me to remember any details about the food, but I remember the little discussions we had. At the end of the meal Shakti’s friend began a discussion with K.Sujin about concepts and realities and this continued later in a shop. We understand for a few moments and then become lost in the stories again. I thought I’d just add a few more comments as you requested. Arriving back in Bangkok and then Hong Kong a little later reminded me of Crocodile Dundee arriving in New York from the outback. In the end, whether in the big city or the charming countryside, the truths and realities are the same. I know that bhikkhus and lay people have studied and revered the Abhidhamma and other texts in Myanmar since the very early days and helped preserve the teachings so very carefully for us to study today. It’s a very rich country in this regard. Metta, Sarah p.s Still hoping you'll add your pic one day, Suan. Connie, do you have one too?? ====== 26680 From: shakti Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 1:38am Subject: re: guarding the senses (James) Hi James and others, I am now back in Montana and working my way back thru the many posts from all of you. Thanks for your comments and web refrences. When I have more time I hope to look some of the refrences up. James, I think you'd really enjoy Thailand after spending time in Egypt. I don't know if you've ever been to Thailand but, it is a sharp contrast to Egypt. (I spent time in Egypt in 1998). I have always been so inspired by many of the Thai's deep commitment to practice. The food is clean and fabulous and travelling around is relatively easy. If anyone is up for an interesting adventure the trip to India might be a great opportunity. I'm considering join the trip myself. With metta, Shakti - buddhatrue wrote: > James: Could be, actually I am seriously considering moving to > Thailand to teach after a year here in Cairo. A year in Cairo is > probably enough for anyone! ;-). Taiwan is a strong possibility > also. Either way I could easily travel to Bangkok and Hong Kong. I > am finding that traveling anywhere other than the Middle East from > Cairo is problematic and expensive. Don't count on me coming to Hong > Kong this year. From what I am reading, it sounds like your get- > togethers in Bangkok are a real hoot! I may not agree with > everything you discuss, but I like a good adventure! ;-) ..... Keep us posted! As for great adventures, you or others might like to consider joining a planned trip with A.Sujin and several bus-loads around the holy places and a few sight-seeing and shopping diversions in India sometime next year - maybe Oct. The first part of the adventure is getting your name down on ‘The List’ now before any details are available;-) I’m sure Nina will be going and I know a few others are planning to. We haven’t even discussed it - if a number of DSGers were going it would add interest for me for sure;-) However, I should say that tolerance for lots of Thai and lots of Pali words in English discussions (even if none of it is understood) would be pretty essential, I think. Do you have any comments, Christine or Azita? Metta, Sarah p.s Chris - I think it’s the weekend of Jan 30th -Feb 1st that some of us hope to be meeting with Nina in Bkk. ====== 26681 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 1:53am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > I had been wrestling with this issue (intrinsic quality of rupa) in > the back the back of my mind for a couple of years. > > Rob M. (and Sarah), The entire concept of `rupa' is ill-defined to say the least. It is a make-believe idea to create a 'map' of the world and consciousness, and how they interact. You have simply touched on one of its many flaws. Nothing in our environment has an intrinsic quality of satisfactoriness or unsatisfactoriness save what we, with our thinking minds, give it. One man's trash is another man's treasure, and that is the way it has always been. This is not a perversion, as Sarah suggests, but a matter or perception. Why fly in the face of all common sense just because the Abhidhamma says to? Again, this is sincere proof that the Buddha did not teach the Abhidhamma. He only taught what could be proven for ourselves...'rupa' is not one of those things. Metta, James 26682 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 1:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: Myanmar5: Equalizing/Balancing/Coupling of Faculties Hi Sarah, Nina, RobK, Suan and others, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > -- - robmoult wrote: > > > Sarah, I tend to see accumulations as central to many aspects of the > > Dhamma and I continue to be nervous that this subject does not > > appear to be given prominence in the texts. > > > > Comments? > The more we understand about natural decisive support and other > conditions, the more we can appreciate when we read any suttas that they > are a description of facts and detailed conditioned realities from past > and present causes - no selves, no beings at all. > > RobM, I may be missing the point of your question, in which case, please > explain more and perhaps Nina, RobertK or others may have further > comments. In a nutshell, if "accumulations" are such a key aspect of the Dhamma, why are they only "implicitly and indirectly" referenced in the Suttas and the Abhidhamma texts? Why is there not a series of Suttas on the theme of accumulations? Why does the Vibhanga not include an essay on accumulations? This makes me anxious that I may be overestimating the importance of accumulations. Perhaps they truly are only "Part c of one of the 24 conditions". Metta, Rob M :-) 26683 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 2:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: Myanmar5: Equalizing/Balancing/Coupling of Faculties Hi RobM, and all, Thank-you for asking this. I also wonder about the same thing. It seems to be commonsense - but with so little textual support, is it possible that there is a house of cards resting on this one ace. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Sarah, Nina, RobK, Suan and others, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > - - > - robmoult wrote: > > > > Sarah, I tend to see accumulations as central to many aspects of > the > > > Dhamma and I continue to be nervous that this subject does not > > > appear to be given prominence in the texts. > > > > > > Comments? > > The more we understand about natural decisive support and other > > conditions, the more we can appreciate when we read any suttas > that they > > are a description of facts and detailed conditioned realities from > past > > and present causes - no selves, no beings at all. > > > > RobM, I may be missing the point of your question, in which case, > please > > explain more and perhaps Nina, RobertK or others may have further > > comments. > > In a nutshell, if "accumulations" are such a key aspect of the > Dhamma, why are they only "implicitly and indirectly" referenced in > the Suttas and the Abhidhamma texts? Why is there not a series of > Suttas on the theme of accumulations? Why does the Vibhanga not > include an essay on accumulations? This makes me anxious that I may > be overestimating the importance of accumulations. Perhaps they > truly are only "Part c of one of the 24 conditions". > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 26684 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 2:17am Subject: I couldn't believe my eyes..... Dear Friends, Today the main English newspaper in Hong Kong, the South China Morning Post,is celebrating its centenary edition. To celebrate, it included a copy of the very first edition which of course came out on November 6th, 1903. It’s fascinating to me. The first page (like the origninal ‘Times’ in London) consists of advertisements. These make good reading in themselves - ads for steamers, typewriters, arms and ammunition, coal and shipping vessels. Page 2 consists of a full page of information about the Shanghai horse races. I’ll come back to Page 3, but can’t resist mentioning that page 4 & 5 give brief news reports from London and a few brief local ariticles. The reports include movements of the Tsar of Russia, the Kaiser, regional reports on mutineers, priates and smugglers, a message from the King of England, fears about war between Japan and Russia, President Roosevelt’s displeasure in relation to Colombia and the Panama Canal and so on;-) The best local article(about cricket of course;-)) starts off: “Nothing is so despicable in a community as snobbery. It saps the manliness out of men. It sucks the womanliness out of women. It denies to man his God-given right to look his neighbour in the face. It generates flunkeyism, toadyism, and the whole ugly brood of reptilian uncharitableness in humanity [S: perhaps we could learn from this vocabulary?]. Classism is a necessity, and discipline a good; but before God man is but Man on the Peak [S: where we used to live], or Man on the Wanchai Road [S: where we live now]. He has no higher attribute than manhood. In sport all men are equal. His Excellency the Governor shoots shoulder to shoulder with the grocer and the vendor of wine. So it is that one detests the term “second class” applied to the Cricket League...” Pages 6,7 and 8 consist of infomation about vessels loading, shipping arrivals, mail ship departures from other countries with likely arrival dates{S: mail just if and when a ship happens to arrive with a canon for the Peak to signal this welcome event], passenger arrivals and guests lists at the main hotels. The reason I’m giving all this background, however, is because I couldn’t believe my eyes when after reading all the ads on p.1, skipping the Shanghai race details on p.2, I turned to p.3 and found that almost the entire page consists of “Book of the Week” and that the book selected for such a long article is Dr TW Rhys David’s “Buddhist India”. The article makes fascinating reading and consists mostly of descriptions of life-styles at the time of the Buddha, including long details of the hot-air baths (apparently described in Vinaya texts) which were in the towns and houses of the rich, much like Turkish baths. It also reviews the chapters on the ‘Beginnings of Writing and Literature’ and then a detailed history on King Ashoka with many of the Edicts and then the crumbling of his empire. Here is one of the Edicts it gives. I think Dharam would approve: "Toleration. Honour should be paid to all, laymen and recluses alike, belonging to other sects. No one should disparage other sects to exalt his own. Self-restraint in words is the right thing." The Book Report does share the page with one other article - the minutes of the Sanitary Board meeting. it is decided that an opium den can be registered without any problem as long as an extra 3inches of cement is added to the 3inches of cement already on the floor. Apparently a cement floor is a pre-requisite condition for opium dens;-) Imagine a newspaper today where a Buddhist book and verses take priority over the wars and quibbles amongst nations!! The space given to the book report and all the world news is exactly the same as well. Metta, Sarah ===== 26685 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 2:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > I am particularly interested in Sarah's understanding that the list > of 24 conditions in the Patthana is exhaustive. If she finds a > supporting quote in the texts, I will have an issue. Hi Rob M. What kind of issue will you have? Will you abandon belief in the Abhidhamma? Sarah has posted to me previously that the Patthana is exhaustive: it describes the conditions for everything in the universe. Information about this book on the Internet also points to this idea: "Pa¥¥hæna forming the last book of the Abhidhamma brings together all such relationship in a co-ordinated form to show that the dhammas do not exist as isolated entities but they constitute a well ordered system in which the smallest unit conditions the rest of it and is also being conditioned in return. The arrangement of the system is so very intricate, complex, highly thorough and complete that it earns for this treatise the reputation of being deep, profound and unfathomable." http://www.buddhanet.net/patthana.htm Metta, James 26686 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 2:23am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi James (and all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > The entire concept of `rupa' is ill-defined to say the least. It is > a make-believe idea to create a 'map' of the world and consciousness, > and how they interact. You have simply touched on one of its many > flaws. Nothing in our environment has an intrinsic quality of > satisfactoriness or unsatisfactoriness save what we, with our > thinking minds, give it. One man's trash is another man's treasure, > and that is the way it has always been. This is not a perversion, as > Sarah suggests, but a matter or perception. Why fly in the face of > all common sense just because the Abhidhamma says to? Again, this is > sincere proof that the Buddha did not teach the Abhidhamma. He only > taught what could be proven for ourselves...'rupa' is not one of > those things. According to the Bhumija sutta (Mn126), good results (that what we are all looking for) come from proper practice, not from aspirations (or studying the Abhidhamma). In other words, studying the Abhidhamma is not a necessary condition to enlightenment. In the simile of the raft, the Buddha said that we must be prepared to abandon the Dhamma when the time is right (i.e. after having crossed the river, no need to carry the raft along with us). As we develop ourselves, each of us will take a different path and use different tools, based on our accumulations. For me, I find the study and discussion on the Abhidhamma (and the associated Dhamma) to be a conducive path for me. The Tibetian monks focus on esoteric practices which really hold little appeal to me. Each of the five spiritual faculties (faith, energy, concentration, mindfulness and wisdom) must be developed. You have a problem with the entire concept of rupa. I understand that and I cannot say that you are wrong. I faced the same issue when discussing the 31 planes: - Some may say, "this sounds like fairy tales" - Others say, "it is in the texts, it must be true" - I say, "this helps me put some of the Buddha's comments in the Suttas into proper context to better understand the underlying message" Here is a zen-type story to illustrate my point. One monk says, "we need to live in the moment, there is no need to discuss rebirth as it is not related to this moment". A second monk says, "rebirth was a key part of the Buddha's teaching, we should study it." The two monks cannot agree and decide to consult the abbot. The first monk goes to see the abbot and presents his case. The abbot says, "That is correct!" Separately, the second monk goes to see the abbot and presents his case. The abbot says, "That is correct!" When the monks meet to compare notes, they are confused and decide to visit the abbot together. The monks say, "We can't both be correct!" The abbot replies, "That is also correct!!!" My interpretation of this story is that each monk was correct for himself and that there does not have to be one "correct approach" for all monks. James, let's celebrate and share the things we have in common. Your comments on this and othe posts have helped my understanding and I sincerely hope that the benefits are mutual. Quite frankly, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the issue of intrinsic qualities of rupa is such an insignificant detail in the Abhidhamma that I was wrong to puff up like a peacock when I finally figured out what the text meant. Metta, Rob M :-) 26687 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 2:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > I am particularly interested in Sarah's understanding that > the list > > of 24 conditions in the Patthana is exhaustive. If she finds a > > supporting quote in the texts, I will have an issue. > What kind of issue will you have? Will you abandon belief in the > Abhidhamma? Sarah has posted to me previously that the Patthana is > exhaustive: it describes the conditions for everything in the > universe. Information about this book on the Internet also points to > this idea: > > "Pa¥¥hæna forming the last book of the Abhidhamma brings together all > such relationship in a co-ordinated form to show that the dhammas do > not exist as isolated entities but they constitute a well ordered > system in which the smallest unit conditions the rest of it and is > also being conditioned in return. The arrangement of the system is so > very intricate, complex, highly thorough and complete that it earns > for this treatise the reputation of being deep, profound and > unfathomable." > http://www.buddhanet.net/patthana.htm Excellent question! :-) :-) If Sarah can provide me with a specific quote from the texts, then I will have to examine it carefully (perhaps even go to the original Pali version, gasp!). If the quote is clear and inescapable, then I will try to figure out how the 24 conditions could be interpreted as including all the other stuff. If that fails, I will put it aside as "one of those things I need to put on the back burner for a while and approach it with a fresh perspective later". In fact, I put "intrinsic qualities of matter" on the back burner for a while and I also put "free will or not" on the back burner for a while as well. I figured that when conditions were right, I could revisit the subject and it would make better sense then. This approach worked out well for the other conundrums; it might work for this one as well. Metta, Rob M :-) 26688 From: shakti Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Larry, The characteristic of air is support, it's function is motion or movement and the manifestation is that of conveying. Therefore it would seem that it is 'air' that moves / propels the body in movement. No I or self that moves. With metta, Shakti Hi Rob, Is the air element considered to be a condition for the arising of rupa in "movement"? Vism. XI 93, note 37: "Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air element: ' "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362)." Larry Hi Larry, LBIDD@w... wrote: Rob: "I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I would have noticed that there are some cases of matter acting as a condition for matter included." 26689 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:19am Subject: Re: guarding the senses (James) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > Hi James and others, > > I am now back in Montana and working my way back thru the many posts from all of you. Thanks for your comments and web refrences. When I have more time I hope to look some of the refrences up. > > James, I think you'd really enjoy Thailand after spending time in Egypt. I don't know if you've ever been to Thailand but, it is a sharp contrast to Egypt. (I spent time in Egypt in 1998). I have always been so inspired by many of the Thai's deep commitment to practice. The food is clean and fabulous and travelling around is relatively easy. > > If anyone is up for an interesting adventure the trip to India might be a great opportunity. I'm considering join the trip myself. > > With metta, Shakti Hi Shakti, Thank you for writing. Yes I have been to Thailand, twice actually. I love everything about Thailand (except for forests infested with poisonous ants!...long story ;-). I have traveled to many countries and I haven't ever encountered one like Egypt. I don't know about India. You know, in Cairo they actually say, "Well, at least Egypt isn't as bad as India!" LOL! Don't know if that is true or not but I don't think I want to find out. Metta, James 26690 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/6/03 12:34:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > This is the crux of my question. I believe that there are many > conditions that are not covered by the Patthana. Gravity, friction, > electricity, magnetism, nuclear to name a few. I believe that these > are not included in the Abhidhamma because they are "not conducive > to the holy life, nor do they lead to unbinding (Nibbana)." In other > words, they are outside the Buddha's stated scope of interest. > > These "unlisted conditions" focus on matter as a condition for > matter and form the basis for science (physics, chemistry, biology, > etc.). These "unlisted conditions" do impact what happens to us (not > just vipaka and accumulations). For this reason, trying to analyze > in detail the reasons behind what happens to us is futile. What is > important is that we recognize that everything arises because of > natural conditions; no unseen hand of God or "working of self" > behind what happens to us. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: But when rupa is conditioned by previous rupa, that previous rupa might be mind-conditioned rupa (and I believe ultimately *is* mind-conditioned rupa, even when not directly so, for mind is the forerunner of all dhammas). In any case, I think quite generally that "trying to analyze in detail the reasons behind what happens to us is futile. What is important is that we recognize that everything arises because of natural conditions; no unseen hand of God or 'working of self' behind what happens to us," and though the fact of this natural and impersonal origin of events can certainly be bolstered by reading some details and thinking about some details, it can be most essentially ascertained by directly seeing for oneself that this is so by means of following the Buddha's directions for investigating - for directly examining what arises with a well trained and cultivated mind. ------------------------------------------------------- > > I am particularly interested in Sarah's understanding that the list > of 24 conditions in the Patthana is exhaustive. If she finds a > supporting quote in the texts, I will have an issue. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26691 From: shakti Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar (Nina) Dear Nina, I have enjoyed your posts and books and been very inspired by them. I look forward to meeting you very soon. I hope that it works out that I can join all of you in Bangkok the end of January. With metta, Shakti nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Shakti, Thank you very much for your report, I was delighted to read it. I think we are going to meet in Bgk next year, looking forward, Nina. op 29-10-2003 15:08 schreef shakti op deannajohnsonusa@y...: > > It has been over 25 years since I first visited Burma, 26692 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:36am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi James (and all), > James, let's celebrate and share the things we have in common. Your > comments on this and othe posts have helped my understanding and I > sincerely hope that the benefits are mutual. > > Hi Rob M, Of course. Just thought I would speak up…and I have been far too agreeable lately ;-). That it took me this long to comment on this thread about rupa demonstrates, I think, a tremendous amount of self- control on my part! ;-). Seriously, if you believe that the Abhidhamma is a `tool' for understanding the dhamma, more power to you. I am not convinced that it is. But it must work for some people or those scholar-monks wouldn't have written it. Just remember, too much theorizing is probably just an attempt to block out the suffering that is at hand. Metta, James Ps. Your zen-story was cute…you heretic! ;-) 26693 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:39am Subject: Dark Citta was (Re: More Myanmar stories;-)) Hi Sarah, and all, Thank you for mentioning K. Sujins' words on how dark citta is. It made a great impression on me at the time. If seeing consciousness is only one moment among many, darting in and out, alternating with hearing, thinking, smelling, feeling or whatever - and if it is only when visible object appears that there is light - the fact that when our eyes are open there seems to be continuous light shows how incredibly rapidly citta arises and falls away. So quick! And it was her use of Seeing as 'only seeing' that, at the time :-), seemed so clearly to me to be without a self. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: 26694 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi RobM, --- robmoult wrote: > This is the crux of my question. I believe that there are many > conditions that are not covered by the Patthana. Gravity, friction, > electricity, magnetism, nuclear to name a few. I believe that these > are not included in the Abhidhamma because they are "not conducive > to the holy life, nor do they lead to unbinding (Nibbana)." In other > words, they are outside the Buddha's stated scope of interest. ..... I believe they are concepts, so they may fall under arammana paccaya (object) or pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support) only. They are concepts representing rupas. The rupas (heat, air, solidity etc) condition other rupas and also cittas as discussed. ..... > These "unlisted conditions" focus on matter as a condition for > matter and form the basis for science (physics, chemistry, biology, > etc.). These "unlisted conditions" do impact what happens to us (not > just vipaka and accumulations). For this reason, trying to analyze > in detail the reasons behind what happens to us is futile. What is > important is that we recognize that everything arises because of > natural conditions; no unseen hand of God or "working of self" > behind what happens to us. ..... Of course we can’t understand all the complexities, but that’s because of our very limited understanding of realities, not because of our limited understanding of science (more concepts;-)). ..... > I am particularly interested in Sarah's understanding that the list > of 24 conditions in the Patthana is exhaustive. If she finds a > supporting quote in the texts, I will have an issue. ..... I don’t think I’ve ever used the word ‘exhaustive’, but I do think that the conditions or the arising of all realities are intricately detailed. The best I can do at short notice is to quote from U Narada’s Intro to the Patthana he translated: “Patthana (Conditional Relations) deals with the 22 Triplets and 100 Couplets of the Dhammasangani, i.e. all the ultimate realities, both singly and in combinations, with reference to the 24 conditions to show how the causes and their effects are related. In the methods of the four Noble Truths and Dependent Origination, only the manifested causes and effects are considered. but in Patthana, the forces that bring about the relations between the causes and effects are also taken into account and its is with these forces that this subject is primarily concerned. Hence statements such as “Visible object-base is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition” are met with in the Text. This means that visible object-base, a state as the condition, is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states, the states as the conditioned, by the force of the object condition or the conditioning force of object.” A little later it defines force (satti), using one of our favourite words ‘inherent’;-) “Force (satti). It is that which has the power to bring about or accomplish. Just as the hotness of chilli is inherent in it and cannot exist apart from it and as the sweetness of sugar is inherent in it and cannot exist apart from it, so also, the conditioning forces inherent in the states cannot exist apart from those states. For example, in root condition, the force of root condition (conditioning force) inherent in the state of greed, which is one of the six roots, cannot exist apart from that state. Here the root conditioning state is greed and the conditioning force of greed is also greed. Therefore, the force and the state which possess that force cannot be considered apart from each other. It has to be remembered, however, that a state can possess many conditioning forces...” I’m not sure if this helps, Rob, but it may be a helpful introduction to Conditions for others. Metta, Sarah p.s I’ll be very tied up for the next couple of days or so (in between teaching tomorrow, we’ll also be celebrating our anniversary, inc. going to the long-awaited Stones concert- at least it’s outdoors and round the corner. Neil Young coming through the window as I write;-)) - if you can persuade RobertK to discuss gravity, science and conditions with you, he’s more likely to appreciate your view-point having had similar discussions I think. Christine & Thomas, thank you both for your helpful additional details. ================ 26695 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 6:17am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 20 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there] 20. 11. As regards the tetrads, in the first tetrad, knowledge that occurs contingent upon the truth of suffering is "knowledge of suffering"; knowledge that occurs contingent upon the origin of suffering is "knowledge of the origin of suffering"; knowledge that occurs contingent upon the cessation of suffering is "knowledge of the cessation of suffering"; and knowledge that occurs contingent upon the way leading to the cessation of suffering is "knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of suffering". So it is of four kinds as knowledge of the four truths. 20. catukkesu pa.thamacatukke dukkhasacca.m aarabbha pavatta.m ~naa.na.m dukkhe ~naa.na.m. dukkhasamudaya.m aarabbha pavatta.m ~naa.na.m dukkhasamudaye~naa.na.m. dukkhanirodha.m aarabbha pavatta.m ~naa.na.m dukkhanirodhe~naa.na.m. dukkhanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada.m aarabbha pavatta.m ~naa.na.m dukkhanirodhagaaminiyaa pa.tipadaaya ~naa.nanti eva.m catuusu saccesu~naa.navasena catubbidhaa. 26696 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 6:29am Subject: Re: More Myanmar stories;-) Dear Sarah Thank you for your kind sharing of experiences in Myanmar during a brief visit there. I studied Pali at the Mandalay University briefly before transfer to a university in Yangon. The student hall I stayed was not very far from the eastern wall of the Mandalay Palace. So it is called Nan Shaet Hall (Nan = Palace, Shaet = East). And it is also within a walking distance of about one hour or so away from Manadalay Hill. So in the evenings, I usually organized walks with other students to visit Mandalay Hill, Kuthodaw (Kusala Royal), Historical Monasteries in the suburbs between Nan Shaet Hall and Mandalay Hill. As those places are historical places and buildings, I had a feeling of being relocated in a different time and place. I did not have a chance to visit Mahagandhayon (Mahaa gandha aaramma.na). But, I regard the late Mahagandhayon Sayadaw, Ashin Janakaabhivamsa, as my textual guru because he wrote modern Nissaya texts on all the commentaries and subcommentaries on Abhidhamma Pi.taka, which I study and consult all the time (I have them in Canberra). I also use his Nissaya text of Kaccaayana Pali Saddaa (Pali grammar). I haven't been to Pagan either. I will surely visit Pagan when I visit Myanmar. I have no doubt about going to have a feeling of relocation in even more distant time and place. I also hope that the natural environments in Myanmar remain as long as possible. No need to destroy them in the name of development. Yes, study of Abhidhamma, commentaries, and subcommentaries, study of Pali saddaa texts the old way, writing of new works and new Nissaya texts on Pali Tipi.taka will remain intact through the thriving learning centres in each region of Myanmar such as Mandalay Monasteries, Sagai Monasteries, Pakhukkuu Monasteries, Pyi Monasteries, Yangon Monasteries, Pegu Monasteries, Myaungmya Monasteries, Mawlamyaing Monasteries and the like. The above are large cities with established famous unique monastic learning traditions of their own. Needless to say, new works keep being produced from those regional monasteries generations after generations. And it is customary for Myanmar Sayadaws to seek out and learn from monateries from other regions even after they have passed all the prescribed monastic examinations. The late Mahagandhayon Sayadaw Asin Janakaabhivamsa had studied at Monastries in Mandalay (Upper Myanmar), Pakhukku (Middle Myanmar) and Myaungmya (Lower Myanmar) to gain richer learning, teaching and interpretative techniques. He was a very prolific writer, too. By the way, U Pe Maung Tin used Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on A.t.thasaalinii and Visuddhimaggo (Pyi in Middle Myanmar) when he translated them as "The Expositor" and "The Path Of Purity". I have Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts On A.t.thasaalinii in addition to Mahagandhayon Sayadaw's modern Nissaya texts. Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts are called "Old Nissaya Texts". I would like to know what it feels like having Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on Visuddhimaggo. Nissaya texts are study aids for students of Pali and convenient reference works for Pali scholars. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hi Suan, --- abhidhammika wrote: > > So I am looking forward to hearing more news trickling down from the > visitors to Myanmar like you and others. ...... It's a long time not to visit your home country and I hope you can visit back sometime soon, even if fairly briefly and get citizenship later. Nina and another friend asked me to add anything more as well. Perhaps others can keep adding their impressions too. Honestly, Suan, we were only in Myanmar for 4nts, 5days, but I felt we saw a lot. It reminded some of us a lot of Sri Lanka or some thought of Thailand 30 years or so ago. Like Sri Lanka, it has remained very undeveloped and poor while neighbouring countries like Thailand have developed rapidly. But a lot of the beautiful landscapes and stupas can be seen and appreciated in Myanmar as a result of the lack of development on the horizon. Nowhere was crowded, everyone was friendly and it seemed very peaceful everywhere. In the end, whether in the big city or the charming countryside, the truths and realities are the same. I know that bhikkhus and lay people have studied and revered the Abhidhamma and other texts in Myanmar since the very early days and helped preserve the teachings so very carefully for us to study today. It's a very rich country in this regard. Metta, Sarah p.s Still hoping you'll add your pic one day, Suan. Connie, do you have one too?? ====== 26697 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 6:49am Subject: Consciousness and Self-View Hi All, Came across this interesting bibliographic entry I thought I might share: Anscombe, G.E.M. 1981. "The first person." In Metaphysics and Philosophy of Mind: Collected Philosophical Papers Volume II , 21-36. Oxford: Blackwell. Objects to the claim that bodily information is the source of the sense of self; holds that we can imagine ourselves completely disembodied while retaining self-consciousness: And now imagine that I get into a state of "sensory deprivation." Sight is cut off, and I am locally anaesthetized everywhere, perhaps floated in a tank of tepid water; I am unable to speak, or touch any part of my body with any other. Now I tell myself, "I won't let this happen again!" If the object meant by "I" is this body, this human being, then in these circumstances it won't be present to my senses; and how else can it be "present to" me? But have I lost what I mean by "I"? Is that not present to me? Am I reduced to, as it were, "referring in absence?" I have not lost my "self- consciousness;" nor can what I mean by "I" be an object no longer present to me. This both seems right in itself, and will be required by the "guaranteed reference" we are considering. (Anscombe 1981: 31) Anscombe is arguing against the view, later defended by Evans (see 1982), that self-reference is dependent upon information from one's body. http://home.earthlink.net/~dravita/ This is a philosophical argument that self-view comes from the mind alone and not the senses. To my knowledge, it hasn't been reported that those in sensory deprivation experiments lose their sense of self; they retain their sense of self even without sensory input. Just as the Buddha taught, it all stems from the mind. Metta, James 26698 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 10:01am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Rob, One may think that the study and discussion on the Abhidhamma to be a conducive path. However, the question is, a conducive path to what? I would think it is important to distinguish the Buddha's teaching from what it is not, and not to confuse the bark with the core. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi James (and all), [snip] 26699 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Ignorance II Dear Sarah and all, I continue. >op 03-11-2003 20:08 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > “The point was not whether there is stronger vipaka for an ignorant person. > > Sorry then, it seems I misunderstood your question … What was the question > again? I am lost now. >N: The quote from the Milinda questions did not deal with vipaka. It dealt with akusala citta. When ignorance is strong you burn yourself more:< ,"Indeed, great king, in the same way the greater demerit is for him who does evil not knowing.> Ignorance arises with each akusala citta, but it can be of different degrees. When you have no notion of what is akusala the evil you commit is of a higher degree. M: I am not sure about akusala is stronger when there is more ignorance’ > either ignorance is present as a mental factor or it is not present. I don’t > see this relative strength of ignorance’ in the texts. Where do you find > this? N: There are different degrees of akusala which is always accompanied by ignorance: ignorance of what is kusala, what is akusala, ignorance of the danger of akusala and of the benefit of kusala. Ignorance is gradually worn away by those who develop understanding and attain stages of enlightenment, a long process, taking aeons. Only the arahat has completely eradicated ignorance. In your own life you can notice that dosa sometimes is a slight uneasiness, and sometimes a stronger aversion such as anger. Ignorance is very coarse when one does not see that akusala is harmful, for instance if one at all costs is after one's own pleasure and sees this as one's goal. A person might even kill other beings, lie and steal all for his own sake. Ignorance conditions wrong view which may be very dangerous, such as the views of Makkhali Gosaala, Puura.na Kassapa and Ajita Kesakambali. If one propagates that akusala kamma does not bring any result it is most harmful for society. See the Brahmajaalasutta for different kinds of wrong view conditioned by coarse ignorance. We do not advocate such theories, but there are other forms of ignorance, less coarse, but I would not call them subtle. In the Kindred Sayings IV, Second Fifty, Ch I, §53 we read that a monk said: <'By how knowing, lord, by how seeing does ignorance vanish and knowledge arise?' 'In him that knows and sees the eye as impermanent... that knows and sees objects... as impermanent, ignorance vanishes and knowledge arises.' The same is said with regard to the other doorways. Ignorance is not seeing the presently arisen dhamma as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. The sotaapanna has realized the four noble Truths, but there are many degrees of realizing this. He still has akusala, but no longer to the degree of conditioning akusala kamma that can produce an unhappy rebirth. Gradually the three roots are worn away until one reaches arahatship. M: I understand your considerations about how vipaka can be produced. But I > thought we should take a sort of scientific approach and simplify the > variables otherwise it is impossible to get any answer. N: Science has another approach and another goal, it is quite different from the Buddha's teachings which have as the aim to develop understanding so that defilements are gradually eradicated. Kamma and vipaka belong to the "unthinkables", people would become mad when they try to find out which kamma produces which vipaka. We cannot simplify what is the domain of the Buddhas. For us it is more fruitful to begin to understand whether the citta at this moment is kusala or akusala. There is enough ignorance that has to be worn away. Nina. 26700 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 10:04am Subject: Vis. 34 and Tiika Vis. 34. Herein, all kinds of states whatsoever that have the characteristic of 'being molested' (ruppana) by cold, etc., taken all together should be understood as the materiality (ruupa) aggregate. 1. That is of one kind with the characteristic of 'being molested'. 2. It is also of two kinds when classed as (a) primary entity (bhuuta) and (b) derived [by clinging] (upaadaaya). Pali Vis. 34: tattha ya.m ki~nci siitaadiihi ruppanalakkha.na.m dhammajaata.m, sabba.m ta.m ekato katvaa ruupakkhandhoti veditabba.m. tadeta.m ruppanalakkha.nena ekavidhampi bhuutopaadaayabhedato duvidha.m. Tiika: 34. Tatthaati tesu pa~ncasu khandhesu. Ya.m ki~nciiti anavasesapariyaadaana.m. As to the word, herein, this means, in the five aggregates. As to the expression, whatsoever, this means an all-inclusive treatment. ..... (grammatical explanation of the expression ya.m ki~nci, what so ever.) Siitaadiihiiti siitu.nhajighacchaapipaasaadiihi. Hetu-atthe ceta.m kara.navacana.m. (Molested) by cold etc. , this means by cold, heat, hunger, thirst, etc. This is the instrumental case with the meaning of cause. .... Bhuutopaadaayabhedatoti ettha tadadhiinavuttitaaya bhavati ettha upaadaayaruupanti bhuuta.m. As to the expression, with regard to the classification as principal elements and derived elements, here, the latter proceed by the condition of dependence on them (principle elements), and thus they have become derived (by clinging). ....... English: As to the word, herein, this means, in the five aggregates. As to the expression, whatsoever, this means an all-inclusive treatment. ..... (grammatical explanation of the expression ya.m ki~nci, what so ever.) (Molested) by cold etc. , this means by cold, heat, hunger, thirst, etc. This is the instrumental case with the meaning of cause. .... As to the expression, with regard to the classification as principal elements and derived elements, here, the latter proceed by the condition of dependence on them (principle elements), and thus they have become derived (by clinging). ....... 26701 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 34, 35, 36 Hi Larry, thank you very much. Very uuseful. Some remarks below. op 06-11-2003 02:57 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Ch. XI 93. 4. "As to characteristic", etc.: he should advert to the > four elements in this way: 'The earth element--what are its > characteristic, function, manifestation?, [defining them in this way]: > The earth element has the characteristic of hardness. Its function is to act as a foundation. N: There could not be walking, standing, sitting or lying down without the four great elements, they are there all the time performing their functions. This reminds us to what extent our postures are conditioned. Also small movements like moving fingers, blinking one's eyes, they are all operations of the great elements. The elements are sabhaavadhammas, dhammas with their own distinct nature, they manifest their own characteristics. Only one characteristic appears at a time, since citta experiences only one object at a time: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure. When we feel hot the rupa of heat appears, but there is also the nama which experiences heat, otherwise heat could not appear. < The air element has the characteristic of > distending. Its fuction is to cause motion. It is manifested as > conveying. (37) This is how they should be given attention by > characteristic, and so on. [366] N: when we think of motion we usually have the idea of, I am moving forward. We think of a whole situation. But the elements arise and fall away extremely fast. While we are thinking of moving forward countless elements have arisen and fallen away already. We cannot slow them down at all. I find this a good explanation: > "Conveying" is acting as cause for the successive arising at adjacent > locations (desantaruppatti) of the conglomeration of elements > (bhuuta-sa.nghaata)' (Pm.363). Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air > element: ' "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the > conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause > for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling > (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent > locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362). N: While moving forward we do not need to think of the way the elements work, but they perform their functions already, and they do so very fast, no matter whether we walk slowly or rapidly. Nina. 26702 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:contact Hi Howard, op 05-11-2003 20:20 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> In a previous discussion you and Rob >>> explained that consciousness is just pure consciousness. .. > =============================== > This discussion is exactly the sort of thing that motivates my > understanding of a contact as primary and of vi~n~nana, aramanna, and dvara as > co-occurring aspects of that event. Seeing is visual contact - it is > consciousness > of visual object via the eye door. There is no seeing until the co-occurence > of > consciousness, visual object (as object of that consciousness), and eye-door > activation (as medium for that seeing). Seeing is different from hearing... N: Contact is a cetasika, arising with each citta and it assists the citta in contacting the object. Also in the suttas contact is mentioned, not only in the Abhidhamma. I agree with your description of the co-occurring of seeing, visible object and eye-door. Only I would not say contact is primary, because there is also one-pointedness which conditions the citta to cognize only that one object, and there are other cetasikas performing their functions. Cittas are variegated in many ways. But they all have in common that they clearly cognize an object. No matter what type of citta arises, it has to cognize an object. In that sense they are luminous or pure. Nina. 26703 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 2:34pm Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > One may think that the study and discussion on the Abhidhamma to be > a conducive path. However, the question is, a conducive path to > what? > > I would think it is important to distinguish the Buddha's teaching > from what it is not, and not to confuse the bark with the core. In the Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta (Mn63) and the Simsapa Sutta (Sn LVI.31), the Buddha clearly defined the goal of the teaching; supporting the holy life and attainment of Nibbana. Conditions (wife, kids, etc.) do not support me becoming a monk in this life. However, as a layperson, I am able to practice the ten bases of meritorious actions (punna-kiriya vatthu): - Charity (dana) - Morality (sila) - Meditation (bhavana) - Respect for elders (appacayana) - Service (veyavacca) - Transfer of merit (pattidana) - Rejoicing in other's merits (pattanumodana) - Listening to the Dhamma (Dhamma-savana) - Teaching the Dhamma (Dhamma-desana) - Straightening out of view (ditthijjukamma) As I practice these ten bases of meritorious actions, I develop accumulations and create good kamma for myself. These accumulations and good kamma will be a base for further development in this and in future lives. The journey is unimaginably long, but what is important is that I am moving in the right direction, putting one foot in front of the other, making progress. Victor, from reading your other posts, it is clear that you have studied the Dhamma in some depth. I am sure that none of the material in this post is new to you. I want to thank you for your question; it is important to "go back to the basics" now and then to recalibrate. Your question, plus some other conditions in my life at the moment have given me an interesting idea. These past few days, I have been working with a team of managers from across the region. I have been coaching them on strategic planning. I have been focusing on what makes a good "action item"; an action item must be recorded, visible, time bound (i.e. completion date) and measurable (was it done, Y/N). My idea is to use this approach of strategic planning to my personal life with my ten supporting strategies being the ten bases of meritorious actions. I will then establish a set of specific action items, to be completed within the next three months, against each supporting strategy. This approach will increase the discipline of execution and accountability in my personal life. Anumodana Victor and a sincere "thank-you" for asking this question. Metta, Rob M :-) 26704 From: Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:contact Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/6/03 4:27:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > op 05-11-2003 20:20 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >>In a previous discussion you and Rob > >>>explained that consciousness is just pure consciousness. .. > >=============================== > >This discussion is exactly the sort of thing that motivates my > >understanding of a contact as primary and of vi~n~nana, aramanna, and dvara > as > >co-occurring aspects of that event. Seeing is visual contact - it is > >consciousness > >of visual object via the eye door. There is no seeing until the > co-occurence > >of > >consciousness, visual object (as object of that consciousness), and > eye-door > >activation (as medium for that seeing). Seeing is different from hearing... > N: Contact is a cetasika, arising with each citta and it assists the citta > in contacting the object. Also in the suttas contact is mentioned, not only > in the Abhidhamma. I agree with your description of the co-occurring of > seeing, visible object and eye-door. Only I would not say contact is > primary, because there is also one-pointedness which conditions the citta to > cognize only that one object, and there are other cetasikas performing their > functions. > Cittas are variegated in many ways. But they all have in common that they > clearly cognize an object. No matter what type of citta arises, it has to > cognize an object. In that sense they are luminous or pure. > Nina. > ============================== In my opinion, the nature of contact is one point at which the Abhidhamma and the suttas differ. In Abhidhamma contact is a concomitant to consciousness, something associated with and subordinate to consciousness. In the suttas, contact is an event which is the coming together or co-arising of a consciousness, a sense door, and a sense object, making consciousness an aspect of, and hence subordinate to, contact. Also, I think it is wrong to say that seeing is a type of consciousness. Seeing is exactly awareness of a visual object via the eye door, which makes it visual contact. The visual consciousness, per se, is only the subjective pole of seeing, something which never occurs except as an aspect of a visual contact. Correspondingly for hearing, tasting, feeling,smelling, and cognizing. As I see it, the Abhidhammikas developed a clever conceptual scheme of sequences of mindstates, each of which is an occurrence of consciousness accompanied by a selection from everything else that can occur in some combination, these cetasikas being subordinate functions or features. This is a brilliant and fascinating framework, one which, as a mathematician, I greatly respect, but it does not seem to perfectly accomodate all of reality easily. Moreover, it appears to me to be a BIG stretch to see it as "uncreatively" reflecting the content of the suttas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26705 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:18pm Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Rob, The Buddha had a wife and a new-born child before he left the household life. Do you think that his wife and child were supporting condition for him to go forth? You stay as a householder because you want to, not because of your wife and kids. You consider that the study and discussion on the Abhidhamm to be a conducive path. My question is, a conducive path to what? I was not asking what the goal of the Buddha's teaching is? Regarding listening to the Dhamma, how do you know what you listen to is the Dhamma? I think it is great idea to have a strategic planning to your personal life with the ten supporting strategies being the ten bases of meritorious actions. I think it is great because it is about taking initiative of one's own action and life in a positive direction. Best wishes with that! Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 26706 From: Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Shakti, The way I read this footnote, there is no movement, probably because movement implies a continuing body which "anatta" denies. Apparently the air element causes "the successive arising at adjacent locations of material groups". Sort of like the individual frames of a movie arising in quick succession give the impression of movement. Larry Vism. XI 93, note 37: "Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air element: ' "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362)." ------------------------- Shakti: Hi Larry, The characteristic of air is support, it's function is motion or movement and the manifestation is that of conveying. Therefore it would seem that it is 'air' that moves / propels the body in movement. No I or self that moves. With metta, Shakti 26707 From: Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. 34 and Tiika "(Molested) by cold etc. , this means by cold, heat, hunger, thirst, etc. This is the instrumental case with the meaning of cause." Hi Nina, This seems to refer to the body (a concept) as rupa. Correct? Also what does "derived [by clinging]" mean? I assume "derived" means made up of the primary elements, but how is this done by clinging? "1. That is of one kind with the characteristic of 'being molested'. 2. It is also of two kinds when classed as (a) primary entity (bhuuta) and (b) derived [by clinging] (upaadaaya)." Larry 26708 From: connie Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:41pm Subject: Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi RobM, Sarah, Yes, I did think I'd misread Sarah's "Anything can be a condition as a result" and thank you for confirming that and wading through my confusion with me. I see we're encroaching on another thread here when we start getting into the desireability of rupa objects. [S: For example, in decisive support of object, a desirable object is a strong condition for cittas and cetasikas which are inclined towards it. So, for example, inherently desirable rupas, such as particular tastes, may be a 'decisive support object' for attachment, but only if attachment is accumulated to want such tastes]. The inherent 'desire' of desirability has to be in the accumulations I think, but then what about 'the beautiful'? Fire element is fire element and it's in every kalapa, so what, other than (perverse) accumulations, makes it more desireable in a fresh flower than a crumbled leaf when all conditioned things are dukkha? Left on my own, I'd think only the three sobhana hetu/cetasika could be inherently desireable... not of course, to the point of clinging. The fire on our heads is only desireable insofar as it conditions wise/proper attention. Someone at last night's meditation group said she didn't like being motivated by fear/hell. I've been reading Conditions and have skipped straight to ch. XVII in The Path of Purification (and a lot of skipping around in that), but it's all pretty much parrot or question to me at this point. Not just the Pali... I don't normally use words like 'cogent reason', but as Buddhaghosa says at the end of the chapter... Let a wise man with mindfulness / So practice that he may begin / To find a footing in the deeps / Of the Dependent Origin. And they're set out as 24 conditions, but sometimes, to paraphrase, they're different in letter, but the same in meaning or only in stressing a particular aspect... as with the cogency/decisive force (mental gravity, Rob?) of the three decisive supports/upanissaya. Thus, proximate decisive support approximates proximity, which is the same as contiguity. But only multiple fruits from multiple causes, no singularities except as teaching devices, so I think whatever is pakatupanissaya has to be aahaara as well and I don't know what all else, but "it is unmixed with object and proximity" (XVII 84). I'm more likely to be behind the camera than in front of it, Sarah, and that rarely, but we'll see. peace, connie 26709 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Dear Rob, op 05-11-2003 23:14 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for > matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I would > have noticed that there are some cases of matter acting as a > condition for matter included. N: we just read with Larry about the four principal rupas and the derived rupas; the derived ones are dependent on the four principal ones, conditioned by them. Eigh inseparable rupas always arise together and condition one another by conascent condition. Nina. 26710 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi Larry, op 05-11-2003 23:18 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Larry: How does consciousness give the impression that "a person > comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind"? > > I proposed that it was because of the fundamental sameness of > consciousness, but perhaps this isn't right. I agree there are > problems with this. What is your idea? N: We do not see the impermanence, the arising and falling away of the many cittas that succeed one another. The river seems something that stays, but in fact there is new water streaming on all the time. Nina. 26711 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi Larry, I answered already your formerpost and it appears we are two persons with one thought, as we say in Dutch Nina. . op 06-11-2003 05:41 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > L: Many of any kind of phenomena close together seem like one even if > the phenomena are vastly different. In the case of consciousness, > multitudes of moments of consciousness arise one after another and give > the impression that "a person comes and goes, stands and sits with the > same mind". The impression of "the same mind" is due to the extreme > proximity of many moments of consciousness even though the moments are > different and very "fleeting". Better? 26712 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Rob, op 05-11-2003 23:47 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > The question > arises, "what is the condition that would cause kusala vipaka to > arise rather than akusala vipaka?" N: Only kusala kamma. And it must be the right time for it, thus, other conditions cooperate as well. Nina. 26713 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More Myanmar stories;-) Dear Sarah, what a lovely story, interwoven with Dhamma reminders. It gives the atmosphere of Myanmar. Years ago I was there on a private tour with Lodewijk. We had several days in Pagan and also went to Phrom, very far out. The hotel there was like camping out, but quite an experience. I remember all the slabs with the Tipitaka. There is also an association which does the same on copper, with the intention to make the Tipitaka last longer. We visited U Nyun, we knew from Bgk ECAFE, and his family. They asked me when I would start the real meditation. I tried to explain. Nina. op 06-11-2003 10:33 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Hi Suan, > The first early morning, four of us went up Mandalay hill to the stupa on > top and we were the only people there. 26714 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar5: Equalizing/Balancing/Coupling of Faculties Hi Rob, Yes. Also contiguity condition is important. And other conditions. Nina. op 06-11-2003 10:57 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > This makes me anxious that I may > be overestimating the importance of accumulations. Perhaps they > truly are only "Part c of one of the 24 conditions". 26715 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More Myanmar stories;-) Dear Suan, I am very impressed by the centers of learning and what you tell us about the Sayadaws. We know so little about it. See below. op 06-11-2003 15:29 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > I would like to know what it > feels like having Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on Visuddhimaggo. N: It would feel marvellous. The more the better. But it is all in Burmese? S: Nissaya texts are study aids for students of Pali and convenient > reference works for Pali scholars. N: If you have time it would be wonderful to hear some quotes, also on Pali list. Nina. 26716 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 0:29am Subject: Glimpses of Glorious Bagan Dear Group, (and Sukin) I have added a number of photos to Sukins' Myanmar Album - of the Jedi at Pagan (photos 37 and 38) - which were sprinkled like wild flowers across the landscape and stretched to the horizon. Thanks to Jon for taking the photos from a higher level than I had the courage to climb to. Sandra's photo is only level 1 of a Jedi, I got that far:) The difficulty was that there were no handrails and it was steep and a bit crumbly. http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst I quote below an excerpt from a booklet "Glimpses of Glorious Bagan" Universities Historical Research Centre, The Universities Press. Yangon. Myanmar. 1996. (from pages 1 and 2 of the introduction of about 76 pages in total.) "Bagan ... The monuments seem to overwhelm the landscape. There are about 2,000 of them covering an area of 16 square miles on the eastern bank of the Ayeyarwady River in central Myanmar. They are in different sizes and in a bewildering variety of shapes. They are also in varying stages of preservation and disrepair. Some of them throb with life, visited by devotees, a few have become little more than piles of bricks. Whence do they come, these monuments? Who built them? Why? To find the answer to questions such as these one has to travel back in time, to a time when Bagan flourished as a royal city, the heart of a great kingdom. Tradition has it that Bagan was founded by Thamoddarit in the early 2nd century. But perhaps it would be better to date the Bagan of the monuments from its establishment as a walled city with twelve gates and a moat, by King Pyinbya in 849. The chronicles give a list of kings who reigned at Bagan from Thamoddarit onwards, with Pyinbya as the 34th King. But legend is inextricably mingled with history, and sometimes overshadows it, in the accounts of the kings in the chronicles, and it is only with the 42nd king in the list, Anawrahta, that Bagan emerges into the clear light of history. The two and a half centuries from Anawrahta's (1044-1077) accession to the throne in 1044 to the flight of Narathihapate (1256-1287) from the capital in 1283 in the face of the Mongol invasion were the years of Bagan's greatness. The kingdom stretched from Bhamo in the north and far down to the south, from the Thanlwin river in the east to the Western Yoma in the west. Bagan was know as Tattadesa, the Parched Land, to the Mons, and not much rice was grown in the environs of the capital itself. But the royal city could draw upon the rich rice granaries of Kyaukse, 90 miles to the northeast, and Minbu, 70 miles to the south. The Ayeyarwady river linked it to the sea and to the commerce of the Indian Ocean. There was much intercourse with neighbouring countries. Support was given to King Vijaya Bahu I (1059-1114) of Sri Lanka to sustain him in his struggle against the Chola of southern India to help him re-establish a purified Buddhism. Missions were sent to the northern Song capital of Kaifeng. Repairs were made to the Mahabodhi temple at Bodh Gaya in norhtern India. Perhaps more salient than all these indications of economic well- being and political power was the fact that Buddhism flourished exceedingly in Bagan. Tradition, basing itself upon the Sinhalese chronicle, the Mahavamsa, attributes the origins of Buddhism in Myanmar tothe Mission of Sona and Uttara who, in the 3rd Century B.C. came to Suvannabhumi, usually identified with Thaton, on the Gulf of Mottama. Some modern scholars dispute this point. But even if tradition is to be ignored, there can be no denying that Buddhism was already flourishing in Myanmar in the 1st century A.D. , as attested by the archaeological evidence at Peikthanomyo (Vishnu City), 90 miles southeast of Bagan. Buddhism was also an invigorating influence at Thayekhittaya, near modern Pyaymyo 160 miles south of Bagan, where a developed civilization flourished from the 5th to the 9th century. Notwithstanding the fact that Buddhism had enjoyed a long history in Myanmar before the 11th century, the reign of Anawrahta provided a landmark in the development of Buddhism in Myanmar. Anawrahta was the king of strong religious zeal as well as one of the great power. His clay votive tablets, made to acquire merit, are found widely in Myanmar from Katha in the north to Twante in the south. These votive tablets ususally have, on the obverse, a seated image of the Buddha in the earth-touching attitude, with two lines underneath which express the essence of the Buddhist creed: "The Buddha hath the causes told Of all things springing from causes And also how things cease to be, 'Tis this the Mighty Monk proclaims." On the reverse would be the prayer: "Desiring that he may be freed from samsara the Great Properous King Aniruddha himself made this image of the Lord." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26717 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 1:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have Hi RobM (& Sarah), Yes, RobM's comments were very helpful; thanks Rob ;) mucho metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Nori (& RobM), > > I thought Rob's post was very helpful with a good conclusion: > > --- robmoult wrote: > > > It depends on accumulations and conditions. Perhaps you will meet > > the right life partner and this will be a condition for you to > > marry. Perhaps you will not meet a life partner and should remain > > single. Single, married, monk or layperson, what is important is > > that you study and apply the Dhamma. > ..... > We see that all threads lead in the same direction;-) > -snip 26718 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 1:08am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > The Buddha had a wife and a new-born child before he left the > household life. Do you think that his wife and child were > supporting condition for him to go forth? ===== Probably. ===== > > You stay as a householder because you want to, not because of your > wife and kids. ===== You are correct :-) ===== > > You consider that the study and discussion on the Abhidhamm to be a > conducive path. My question is, a conducive path to what? I was > not asking what the goal of the Buddha's teaching is? ===== To me, it is the same thing. A conducive path to the goal of the Buddha's teaching. ===== > > Regarding listening to the Dhamma, how do you know what you listen > to is the Dhamma? ===== Excellent question :-) I need to explain a bit of my background to frame the answer to this question. I was raised Christian (not devout, but I did go to church every Sunday). As I teenager, I started to question some of the ideas behind Christianity (teenagers are like that). I stopped going to church and for about five years, I spend a lot of time developing "my own personal philosophy" (teenagers also tend to be self-centred like this). I was about 20 years old and was out camping with my girlfriend and her father (her father happened to be a Christian minister). Around the campfire one evening, her father (the father) asked me about my religious beliefs. For three hours solid, I explained "my own personal philosophy". At the end of my presentation, her father said, "That sounds a lot like Buddhism." I replied, "I have never read anything about Buddhism. I find it hard to believe that I would independently come up with one of the world's major religions!" The father said, "You should read some books on Buddhism (he was an open-minded minister). Promped by this event, I started to read about Buddhism and found that it was exactly paralleled "my own personal philosophy". Now I understand that this affinity to the Dhamma in this life is caused because I must have studied the Dhamma quite seriously in a previous life. Now to answer your question, "how do I know what I listen to is the Dhamma"? To me, the Dhamma is "my own personal philosophy"; it is close to my heart. There are portions of the texts, such as the 31 planes, for which I have no strong affinity; these points are not really important to my heart, though they do provide an intellectual treat (how they all fit together). The things that are close to my heart are (using Buddhist terminology) kamma, rebirth, roots and the importance of an "internal perspective" rather than an "external perspective". If I am asked, "Are the 31 planes the Dhamma?", my answer is "Could be - no strong feeling." On the other hand, if I am asked, "Is the law of kamma the Dhamma?", my answer would be an emphatic, "Yes!". Victor, each of us have our relationship to Buddhism. Some were born into it, some turned to it at a time of crisis and some (like myself) discovered that it was their "own personal philosophy". Each of these people may have a different answer to your question, "how do I know what I listen to is the Dhamma?" All answers are correct (for that individual), because the path is a personal thing. Metta, Rob M :-) 26719 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - Hi Thomas (& Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: > Dear Sarah, I think a detached attitude brings also happier families and partnerships. Clinging to partners and loved ones always brings trouble and stress. If we see everyone as a "pleasant guest" in our life, we may also have constantly more respect before them and less feeling of "to possess someone". > > We are together, and then we have to part again, this is not sad at all. It's just natural like the seasons. What is sad is a human lifetime not used to do good, and to make spiritual progress. > > Gassho, > Thomas > --- I couldn't agree more, and I have had this attitude even before encountering Dhamma. I just wish the girlfriends I meet feel likewise. They are not really bad people but they could get possesive, attached/clingy and dependent. How do we cope with or teach people like this that letting go, not clinging is the best way to be? nori 26720 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 1:39am Subject: Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Connie (and Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > The inherent 'desire' of desirability has to be in the > accumulations I think, but then what about 'the beautiful'? ===== R: Sorry, Connie, the desireability is inherent in the rupa. Our feelings toward the rupa are a function of our accumulations. When there is a non-alignment between the two, there is perversion of perception. For example, a knock on the head is inherently undesireable. If a masochist experiences pleasant feeling when being knocked on the head, then this is perversion of perception. ===== > Fire > element is fire element and it's in every kalapa, so what, other than > (perverse) accumulations, makes it more desireable in a fresh flower > than a crumbled leaf when all conditioned things are dukkha? ===== R: Fire element is manifested as temperature (whatever "conceptual object" such as flower, leaf, dung, etc. that it may be associated with). If I sense a temperature that is quite close to my body temperature, then it is inherently pleasant. If I sense a temperature that is far from my body temperature ("very hot" or "very cold") then this temperature is inherently undesireable. If I experience pleasant feeling when contacting something that is "very hot" or "very cold", then this is perversion of perception. Note: I put "very hot" and "very cold" in quotes, because they should be referenced to "body temperature". ===== > Left on my > own, I'd think only the three sobhana hetu/cetasika could be inherently > desireable... not of course, to the point of clinging. ===== R: It is only rupas acting as objects of cittas that qualify as "undesireable", "desireable" and "extremely desireable". Cetasikas are not objects of cittas and they are not rupas, so they don't qualify. ===== > The fire on our > heads is only desireable insofar as it conditions wise/proper attention. ===== R: Sorry, I disagree; see my comments above - conditioning wise attention is not related to the inherent quality of the rupa. Wise attention (yoniso manisikara) is conditioned by accumulations. ===== > Someone at last night's meditation group said she didn't like being > motivated by fear/hell. ===== R: I could not agree more. Metta, Rob M :-) 26721 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 6:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: More Myanmar stories;-) To Nina Dear Nina How are you? You wrote: "It would feel marvellous. The more the better." in response to my statement "I would like to know what it feels like having Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on Visuddhimaggo." Yes, Nina, I agree with you as I always feel relocated to a different time and place whenever I read Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on A.t.thasaalinii. I am sure I would feel the feeling of spatial and temporal relocation when I have a chance to read Pyi Sayadaw's old Nissaya texts on Visuddhimaggo. You also asked: "But it is all in Burmese?" No, Nina, the Nissaya texts are in Pali and Burmese, usually more Pali as the Nissaya writer assumed that the reader knew Pali and began to omit Burmese terms that appeared previously (to save his time). This practice is called "peyyaala" usually indicated by the letter "pa". Before one can read a serious Nissaya text such as those on commentaries, one must have studied Pali grammar beforehand. Without the ability to parse the Pali words (the results of Sandhi, compound words and the like) and follow the syntax (at least one must be able to identify a Pali verb as a Pali verb, and a Pali noun as a Pali noun and the like), a reader would soon feel lost and lose patience and give up. As the common feature of the Nissaya texts, the Nissaya Sayadaws also digress and discuss the issues of Pali grammar either between the text or as footnotes at the bottom of the pages. These make very delicious and informative academic readings. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > I would like to know what it > feels like having Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on Visuddhimaggo. N: It would feel marvellous. The more the better. But it is all in Burmese? S: Nissaya texts are study aids for students of Pali and convenient > reference works for Pali scholars. N: If you have time it would be wonderful to hear some quotes, also on Pali list. Nina. 26722 From: Bongkojpriya Yugala Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar4: rupa, etc. Hello, Rob, Look forward to your visit. But first, you spoke about desirability being inherent in rupa and then gave the example of a knock on the head being inherently undesirable. It may seem to be so on the "conventional" level, but since rupa does not cognize, how can it recognize the pain (as hardness) associated with the knock on the head in the vipaka stage (akusala vipaka) of a sense door process? Only cittas and cetasikas can do that. Nor can one know what is desirable or undesirable rupa; one can only surmise that, I would think. And the accumulations are the greatest "condition" for kusala or akusala javana cittas arising in the next part of the process, as you noted. metta, Betty ________________________________________________________ > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" > wrote: > > The inherent 'desire' of desirability has to be in the > > accumulations I think, but then what about 'the beautiful'? > > ===== > R: > Sorry, Connie, the desireability is inherent in the rupa. Our > feelings toward the rupa are a function of our accumulations. When > there is a non-alignment between the two, there is perversion of > perception. > > For example, a knock on the head is inherently undesireable. If a > masochist experiences pleasant feeling when being knocked on the > head, then this is perversion of perception. > > 26723 From: Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/7/03 3:34:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Larry, > op 05-11-2003 23:18 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > > >Larry: How does consciousness give the impression that "a person > >comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind"? > > > >I proposed that it was because of the fundamental sameness of > >consciousness, but perhaps this isn't right. I agree there are > >problems with this. What is your idea? > N: We do not see the impermanence, the arising and falling away of the many > cittas that succeed one another. The river seems something that stays, but > in fact there is new water streaming on all the time. > Nina. > ======================== If I may, particularly because of my "disputing" your position on contact and more generally on Abhidhamma, Nina, I would like to add my concurring comments here. Using the river analogy, even if the river consisted of nothing but water, with no mud, leaves, branches and other plant life, fish, and so on, what would be the case is the following: The wetness of the river would be a constant - one could not distinguish one river state from another on the basis of its wetness, and if one were to think of the river's wetness (analogically) as its "consciousness", one might, abstracting, say that the consciousness is a single continuing thing. But, in fact, at different times there is different water at different places, and how could the wetness of two *different* portions of water be identical (when the water is not the same)? When it is different water that is wet, the wetnesses are aspects of different things, and hence different; though indistinguishable when isolated *in thought* from the water, they, in fact, are not actually isolable from the water of which they are the wetness. So, as I see it, the knowing aspect (vi~n~nana) of any mindstate is different from the knowing aspect of another mindstate in the same way as the wetnesses of two different bits of water, while of the same *sort*, are not literally identical. Another analogy: Imagine two identical twins with indistinguishable blond(e) hair. Informally we would say they have "the same" hair color. But in saying this we do not literally mean that the hair color of one twin is, identically, the very same hair color of the other. How could it be? These are two different people, with different hair on different heads! We only say that the hair color is "the same" in the sense of mentally abstracting the hair color from the hair and treating it as a self-existing thing, when it is actually an aspect/feature of the hair, and inseparable from it. Viewing it as a thing in itself, while useful for purposes of mental analysis, if done literally is an instance of reifying. (There! I used that word again! ;-) With a river of metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26724 From: Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 3:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, k... Hi, Rob (and Connie) - In a message dated 11/7/03 4:49:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > R: > Sorry, Connie, the desireability is inherent in the rupa. Our > feelings toward the rupa are a function of our accumulations. When > there is a non-alignment between the two, there is perversion of > perception. > > For example, a knock on the head is inherently undesireable. If a > masochist experiences pleasant feeling when being knocked on the > head, then this is perversion of perception. > > ========================= What can it mean for desirability to be inherent in a rupa? If a knock on the head is *inherently* undesirable, then it can never be desired. That's what 'inherent' means. You somehow distinguish between being desirable and being pleasant. How do you make that distinction? Whatever is experienced as desirable is experienced as pleasant, and whatever is experienced as pleasant is, in a worldling, experienced as desirable. What can it mean to be desirable other that being experienced as pleasant? And what can it mean to be *inherently* desirable, other than the desirability of a rupa being determined by the rupa itself, being intrinsic to the rupa? It seems to me that (the sting of) a smack across the face felt by a masochist is a rupa that is pleasant and desired, whereas a smack across the face felt by a "normal" person is a rupa that is unpleasant and not desired. I don't think they should be thought of as "the same" rupa. Likewise for mental states such as humiliation - the humiliation experienced by a masochist is a pleasant state and is not the same as the humiliation felt by a non-masochist. This perspective makes vedanic taste inherent in the rupa, and it distinguishes pleasant/desirable rupas from unpleasant/undesirable rupas, even when the rupas are what are informally thought of as "the same". BTW, in the Anguttara Nikaya, in IV, 52 (Distortions of Perception), the Buddha says there are four distortions of perception, thought, and views: Holding that in the impermanent there is permanence, that in suffering there is happiness, that in what is non-self there is self, and that in the foul there is beauty. This, as I see it, pertains to sa~n~na. It deals with perceptional/recognitional errors. And note that it is not sa~n~na that conditions vedana, but vedana that conditions sa~n~na. A distortion of view is a differing from the norm due to the perversity of the sorts of objects cognized. Masochists encounter pleasant stinging sensations, which are then, of course, perceived as "good" and are craved - the greater the stinging the greater the craving, but non-masochists only encounter unpleasant stinging sensations which are then perceived as "bad" and are disliked. The kinds of rupas encountered are conditioned by our accumulations. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26725 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. 34 and Tiika, rupa in the suttas. Hi Larry, I am glad you ask this. op 07-11-2003 01:39 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Vis text: > "1. That is of one kind with the characteristic of 'being molested'. > 2. It is also of two kinds when classed as (a) primary entity (bhuuta) > and (b) derived [by clinging] (upaadaaya)." Tiika: "(Molested) by cold etc. , this means by cold, heat, hunger, thirst, > etc. This is the instrumental case with the meaning of cause." > This seems to refer to the body (a concept) as rupa. Correct? N: It refers to the rupas of the body, because here it is more obvious. If we had no body we would not suffer from all those things. But I think implied are all rupas. There is a word association between ruupa and rupana, being molested. The Kindred Sayings (S. III, 86) speaks about the body being affected by cold etc. The Co explains: ruppati: troubled, struck, oppressed, broken up. Dispeller of Delusion (Co to the Book of Analysis)Ch I (p. 3): <"It is molested" therefore it is called materiality. "It is molested":[it is disturbed;] it is well-beaten; it is oppressed; it is broken is the meaning...> L: Also what does "derived [by clinging]" mean? I assume "derived" means > made up of the primary elements, but how is this done by clinging? N: Upaadaaya means: clinging, grasping, taking hold of, not letting go. Expositor II, Book II, Ch II (p 395): < 'The derivative matter of the four great essentials'- here the possessive case is in the sense of the ablative. The meaning is, matter which has proceeded in dependence on, is derived from, has not let go the four great essentials...> And Ch III 9p. 402): Thus, we should not take it in the sense of clinging, rupa cannot cling. But in the sense of dependence. Rupas arise in groups and the four great elements have to be present in each group. When there is sound, there have to be the four great elements, sound does not arise alone. Thus, solidity arises together with sound, and also cohesion, heat, motion, each performing their own function. Sound is dependent upon them, it could not arise without them. The same with visible object, and all other derived rupas, 24 in all. Rupa in the Suttas: I looked up ruupa and did some research of its use in the Suttas. Rupa is mostly used as body and as visible object, that is why we see translations as material form. However, not always. In Dialogues of the Buddha II, no.22 (D. II, 308) in the compound craving for material things (ruupata.nhaa) other material phenomena are included, namely what is seen, heard, etc. Intentions concerned with things visible, etc.: ruupasa~ncetana, preoccupation with things seen, etc: ruupavitakka. Here, ruupa is used for the material phenomena which are experienced through the senses and the mind. The rupas which are the four great elements are taught by Sariputta in the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint, and the Buddha taught the four great elements and also the derived element of space to Rahula so that he would realize hardness etc. in the body, realize the three characteristics, and eventually know them as Nina. 26726 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 10:50am Subject: Sayadaws of Myanmar Dear Suan, reflecting more on your impressive letter, I shall keep this for Jim and frwd to him when he is back. Do you allow me to frwd it to Pali list, the part dealing with the Sayadaws? This info should be more widely known. Nina. 26727 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support op 06-11-2003 09:39 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > connie wrote: >> C: >> Do you think all three kinds of upanissaya (decisive support or strong >> dependence)-paccaya are/function 'by way of accumulations'? (The 3 being >> decisive support of: object - arammanupanissaya, proximity - >> anantarupanissaya and natural condition - pakutapanissaya). > ..... > Like RobM said, I think accumulations’ only refers to the third, but in a > way anything is included in it. For example, in decisive support of > object, a desirable object is a strong condition for cittas and cetasikas > which are inclined towards it. So, for example, inherently desirable > rupas, such as particular tastes, may be a decisive support object’ for > attachment, but only if attachment is accumulated to want such tastes. > > I think this is why K.Sujin talks about everything being included in > pakatupanissaya, even though different conditions act in different ways. > I’m about to say more than I understand. > > Nina, may be able to add more on this too. N: I read in "Guide to Conditional Relations", p. 41: two meanings of pakata:1 done properly. 2. naturally. end quote. Then examples are given: strong confidence does not need the other two kinds of object and proximity conditions to motivate good deeds. But as to lokuttara cittas it is different: Path-consciousness has nibbana as object, here there is also object-strong dependence. And: path is related to fruition, here also proximity-strong dependence is present. Thus, the answer is not fixed, it depends on the nature of the realities involved. Nina. 26728 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 10:50am Subject: Tiika Vis. 35 Vis. 35. Herein (a) "primary materiality" is of four kinds as the earth element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, 87, 93); but as to the proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444] Vis. 35. tattha bhuutaruupa.m catubbidha.m pathaviidhaatu aapodhaatu tejodhaatu vaayodhaatuuti. taasa.m lakkha.narasapaccupa.t.thaanaani catudhaatuvavatthaane vuttaani. pada.t.thaanato pana taa sabbaapi avasesadhaatuttayapada.t.thaanaa. **** words: kaama (f): sense desire, object of sense-desire. pakaara: mode, way. antara: between paaleti: to preserve vitthambeti: to extend, expand sa²ngathita: held together. avasesa, sesa: remaining Tiika 35: 35. Kaama.m catudhaatuvavatthaane vacanatthaaditopi bhuutaani vibhaavitaaneva, After he has explained the principal elements as to word meaning and so on in the definition of the four elements as objects of sense desire *, sabhaavadhammaana.m pana lakkha.naadivibhaavanaati katvaa and he has given the explanation of the characteristics and so on of these dhammas which each have their own distinct nature, vutta.m ³lakkha.narasapaccupa.t.thaanaani catudhaatuvavatthaane vuttaanii²ti. he said, ³Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements². Tattha pada.t.thaanassa avuttattaa aaha ³pada.t.thaanato panaa²ti-aadi. Since he had not given the proximate cause, he said, ³as to their proximate cause and so on². (Avacana~nca tassa tassatthassa paccayatoti ettha pakaarantarena vibhaavitattaati da.t.thabba.m.) ......... Sabbaapiiti catassopi dhaatuyo. As to the expression, also all of them, this means, also the four elements. Aaposa"ngahitaaya tejonupaalitaaya vaayovitthambhitaaya eva pathaviidhaatuyaa pavatti, The element of earth proceeds because it is held together by water, maintained by fire, and distended by wind. na a~n~nathaati saa sesabhuutattayapada.t.thaanaa, evamitaraapiiti aaha ³avasesadhaatuttayapada.t.thaanaa²ti. Thus, it is not otherwise that the other great elements are its proximate cause, and therefore he said also with regard to the other elements: ²each has the other three as its proximate cause². **** English: After he has explained the principal elements as to word meaning and so on in the definition of the four elements as objects of sense desire *, and he has given the explanation of the characteristics and so on of these dhammas which each have their own distinct nature, he said, ³Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements². Since he had not given the proximate cause, he said, ³as to their proximate cause and so on². .......... As to the expression, also all of them, this means, also the four elements. The element of earth proceeds because it is held together by water, maintained by fire, and distended by wind. Thus, it is not otherwise that the other (three) great elements are its proximate cause, and therefore he said also with regard to the other elements: ²each has the other three as its proximate cause². _______ * In Ch XI, they are treated under the aspect of the foulness of the body since they are objects of desire. 26729 From: shakti Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Glimpses of Glorious Bagan Dear Christine, Sukin and others, Finally I have had the chance to view all the photos of the Myanmar trip. I marvel at the technology of all of this. Thanks so much for posting them. I was especially happy to see the photos of Bagan, as my camera battery died there. With metta, Shakti christine_forsyth wrote: Dear Group, (and Sukin) I have added a number of photos to Sukins' Myanmar Album - of the Jedi at Pagan (photos 37 and 38) - which were sprinkled like wild flowers across the landscape and stretched to the horizon. Thanks to Jon for taking the photos from a higher level than I had the courage to climb to. Sandra's photo is only level 1 of a Jedi, I got that far:) The difficulty was that there were no handrails and it was steep and a bit crumbly. http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst I quote below an excerpt from a booklet "Glimpses of Glorious Bagan" Universities Historical Research Centre, The Universities Press. Yangon. Myanmar. 1996. (from pages 1 and 2 of the introduction of about 76 pages in total.) "Bagan ... The monuments seem to overwhelm the landscape. There are about 2,000 ---snip --- metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26730 From: Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 6:00am Subject: The Causes of Kamma Hi, all - I obtained the following from Nyanatiloka's dictionary: > vipáka: 'karma-result', is any karmically (morally) neutral mental > phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc. ), > which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action (karma, q.v.) > through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life. > Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the > result of previous action. Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or > unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality > itself karma. On this subject s. tittháyatana, karma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, > 101; Kath. 162 (Guide, p. 80). With regard to the statement "Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality itself karma," some questions come to mind. Here, when he speaks of "result," is only direct result meant, or is indirect result incuded (so that if A conditions B and B conditions C, then C is not a result only of B, but also of A)? If indirect result is included, then one has to ask: Exactly what are the conditions (all non-kammic) for the arising of a volitional action? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26731 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 3:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, k... Hi Howard and Connie, I had this nagging feeling that I owed you a response on this subject. If I did, I hope that this response covers the earlier questions as well. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > What can it mean for desirability to be inherent in a rupa? If a knock > on the head is *inherently* undesirable, then it can never be desired. That's > what 'inherent' means. You somehow distinguish between being desirable > and being pleasant. How do you make that distinction? Whatever is experienced > as desirable is experienced as pleasant, and whatever is experienced as > pleasant is, in a worldling, experienced as desirable. What can it mean to be > desirable other that being experienced as pleasant? And what can it mean to be > *inherently* desirable, other than the desirability of a rupa being determined by > the rupa itself, being intrinsic to the rupa? ===== R: I suspect that some of the confusion is arising because very similar English words are being used to describe different things. I am going to insert the Pali words to (hopefully) make things clearer (then again, it could add one more layer of huh???) :-) All sense objects (i.e. rupas) have an inherent characteristic that can take one of three states (see CMA p172): - anittha: undesireable - ittha: moderately desireable or desireable neutral - ati-ittha: extremely desireable This inherent characteristic arises together with the sense object. Note that when the sense object arises, the citta process is busy with a past bhavanaga citta. In other words, this inherent characteristic exists before the citta process is aware of the sense object. All cittas have an accompanying cetasika called feeling (vedana) which can take one of three states: - sukha: pleasant feeling - dukkha: unpleasant feeling - adukkhamasukha: indifferent (neutral) feeling Except in the Arahant, javana cittas have roots which determine the ethical quality of the kamma-created. There are six roots: - Lobha: desire or attachment - Dosa: aversion or hatred - Moha: hatred - Alobha: non-desire or non-attachment - Adosa: non-aversion or non-hatred - Panna: wisdom In other words, we are dealing with three distinct entities: - Inherent characterisitic of all sense objects - Feeling that arises with all cittas - Roots that arise with all javana cittas The knock on the head mentioned earlier is anittha (undesireable). It was anittha even before the citta process was aware of it (i.e. had not yet become an object of a citta). This rupa existed for at least the duration of three cittas before the sense-door adverting citta (which takes "knock on a head" as an object). During this time, the citta process involved bhavanaga cittas which take another object. The sense door adverting citta (a kiriya citta) is the first citta of the citta process to take the "knock on the head" as object. It is the inherent nature of this object (anittha / ittha / ati-ittha) which control the flow of the citta process. If the rupa is anittha, then the following sense door consciousness is "akusala vipaka". If the rupa is ittha or ati-ittha, then the following sense door consciousness is "kusala vipaka". If the object is ittha, the investigating citta that arises in the citta process will be with indifferent (neutral) feeling. If the object is ati-ittha, the investigating citta that arises in the citta process will be with pleasant feeling. After the investigating citta falls away, the determining citta (also a kiriya citta) takes the object. The type of javana citta that arises next (akusala, kusala or even kiriya for an Arahant) depends on accumulations. If the object is "knock on the head", and because of accumulations, the type of citta that arises is lobha- mula (i.e. desirous / attachment), then this "mis-alignment" is called peverversion of perception (sannavipallasa). ===== > It seems to me that (the sting of) a smack across the face felt by a > masochist is a rupa that is pleasant and desired, whereas a smack across the > face felt by a "normal" person is a rupa that is unpleasant and not desired. I > don't think they should be thought of as "the same" rupa. ===== See my notes above; did the "smack across the face" rupa not exist before it was taken as an object of a citta? Yes, it did! This is what is meant by "object pre-nascence condition". For those instants, the "smack across the face" was inherently anittha. ===== > Likewise for mental > states such as humiliation - the humiliation experienced by a masochist is a > pleasant state and is not the same as the humiliation felt by a non-masochist. > This perspective makes vedanic taste inherent in the rupa, and it distinguishes > pleasant/desirable rupas from unpleasant/undesirable rupas, even when the > rupas are what are informally thought of as "the same". > BTW, in the Anguttara Nikaya, in IV, 52 (Distortions of Perception), > the Buddha says there are four distortions of perception, thought, and views: > Holding that in the impermanent there is permanence, that in suffering there is > happiness, that in what is non-self there is self, and that in the foul there > is beauty. This, as I see it, pertains to sa~n~na. It deals with > perceptional/recognitional errors. And note that it is not sa~n~na that conditions vedana, > but vedana that conditions sa~n~na. > A distortion of view is a differing from the norm due to the > perversity of the sorts of objects cognized. Masochists encounter pleasant stinging > sensations, which are then, of course, perceived as "good" and are craved - the > greater the stinging the greater the craving, but non-masochists only encounter > unpleasant stinging sensations which are then perceived as "bad" and are > disliked. The kinds of rupas encountered are conditioned by our accumulations. Sorry, I am running out of time; I will come back to the different types of perversions (vipallasa) later. Metta, Rob M :-) 26732 From: Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 35 Hi, Nina (and all) - In a message dated 11/7/03 6:30:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Vis. 35. Herein (a) "primary materiality" is of four kinds as the earth > element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their > characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the > definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, 87, 93); but as to the > proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444] > ============================ Supposedly all rupa is either primary or derived from primary rupa. I do not understand this. How, for example, is visual object or sound derived from earth, air, fire,and water? What does it mean for these to be derived from them, and what is the means/mechanism of such derivation? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26733 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 5:38pm Subject: Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > I obtained the following from Nyanatiloka's dictionary: > > vipáka: 'karma-result', is any karmically (morally) neutral mental > > phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense- consciousness, etc. ), > > which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action (karma, q.v.) > > through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life. > > Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the > > result of previous action. Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or > > unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality > > itself karma. On this subject s. tittháyatana, karma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, > > 101; Kath. 162 (Guide, p. 80). > > With regard to the statement "Never, for example, is any karmically > wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in > reality itself karma," some questions come to mind. Here, when he speaks of > "result," is only direct result meant, or is indirect result incuded (so that > if A conditions B and B conditions C, then C is not a result only of B, but > also of A)? If indirect result is included, then one has to ask: Exactly what are > the conditions (all non-kammic) for the arising of a volitional action? The word of the day is.... ACCUMULATIONS!!! Here is my understanding of how it works. We can divide the sense door citta process into the following: Citta 1 - 3: Bhavanga (vipaka; result of last thought from previous existence) Citta 4: Sense door adverting (kiriya) - starts to take the rupa as object and based on the inherent desireability of the rupa, selects either "Path A" or "Path B" for the next three cittas (I chose this designation to avoid re-using words that may bring other meanings to mind). Citta 5 - 7 (Path A): If the rupa was inherently undesireable, then "Path A" is selected and the next three cittas (sense-door consciousness, receiving, investingating) will be of the type "akusala vipaka". Even though the term "akusala" is used here, these cittas have no ethical qualities because they have no roots. The term "akusala" simply designates the original type of javana that caused this citta to arise. If, in the past, there was an akusala javana citta (did something bad), then the result will have the label "akusala" attached to it, even though it has no roots (i.e. the cittas are not good or bad). Citta 5 - 7 (Path B): If the rupa was inherently desireable, then "Path B" is selected and the next three cittas are of the type "kusala vipaka". If the rupa was inherently very desireable, then "Path B" is selected but the investigating citta is accompanied by pleasant feeling rather than by indifferent feeling. Note that the sense-door consciousness that is part of "Path A" and the sense- door consciousness that is part of "Path B" have the same function and the same set of cetasikas. Citta 8: Determining (kiriya), here the two paths converge again the function of this citta is to control which direction the citta process flows after this (the kamma-creating javana cittas). The last kiriya citta we ran across (adverting) also controlled the flow of the citta process. That time, it was either "Path A" or "Path B". This time there are a lot more options. For a non-Arahant, there are 12 possible akusala paths and 8 possible kusala paths. Which of these 20 paths are selected depends on our accumulations. If we have a habit of getting angry, then there is a good chance that the object may trigger a dosa-mula path. It is important to note that the determining citta is kiriya; it does not arise because of kamma, it is functional. Note that the mind-door adverting citta in the mind-door citta process is the same as the determining citta in the sense-door citta process. If the determining of the type of javana were based on a vipaka citta, then there would be no chance for change. I believe that this is the point that Nyanatiloka is making; past kamma does not pre-destine our reaction; there is a choice (but no chooser - that's another story :-) ). Citta 9 - 15: Javana, the cittas that create future kamma. Citta 16 - 17: Registration: Vipaka, also have a "Path A" and "Path B" depending on the inherent nature of the rupa. In summary, one could say that kamma plays a big role in what happens to us but it is accumulations that control the choice of our reaction (and thereby indirectly create new kamma by acting as a condition for the arising of the javana cittas). Howard, does this make sense? Metta, Rob M :-) 26734 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 6:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar4: rupa, etc. Hi Betty (Howard and Connie), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bongkojpriya Yugala" wrote: > You spoke about desirability being > inherent in rupa and then gave the example of a knock on the head being > inherently undesirable. It may seem to be so on the "conventional" level, > but since rupa does not cognize, how can it recognize the pain (as hardness) > associated with the knock on the head in the vipaka stage (akusala vipaka) > of a sense door process? Only cittas and cetasikas can do that. Nor can one > know what is desirable or undesirable rupa; one can only surmise that, I > would think. And the accumulations are the greatest "condition" for kusala > or akusala javana cittas arising in the next part of the process, as you > noted. It would seem that Connie, Howard and yourself are having similar questions. I have recently written somewhat lenghty messages to Connie and Howard on this subject, but let me summarize here: 1. The inherent quality of anittha / ittha / ati-attha (undesireable / moderately desireable / very desireable) arises with the rupa; before a citta has even experienced the object, it is already there. As an analogy, the blue ball is inherently blue, even before an eye sees it and detects the "blueness". 2. Whereas anittha / ittha / ati-attha is a quality of the rupa, vedana (unpleasant / pleasant / indifferent) is a quality of every citta. 3. Desire (attachment) or "undesire" (aversion) are roots of kamma- creating cittas; they provide an ethical quality It is important to keep the three points above as distinct ideas. My most recent post to Howard (on kamma) goes through the details of the citta process and explains the role of the inherent anittha / ittha / ati-attha of rupa. Hope this helps and I look forward to meeing you again. I had more of Nina's BDL books printed; do you need more? Metta, Rob M :-) 26735 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 8:58pm Subject: English discussions Dear Kom, Num, Betty, Sukin, and all, If the English Discussions were broadcast today - I missed it, and am a little disappointed. If it is on Saturdays at 9.00 a.m. Bangkok time, that should mean 11.00 a.m. Brisbane time, right? What a shame I didn't remember until 2.45 p.m. Bris. time. :-) How did it go? Was it broadcast, or are there still gremlins? http://www.dhammastudyandsupport.com/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26736 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 9:25pm Subject: buddhism Q's Hi James, so living in Eygpt does seem quite different. Are there rules in Buddhism like the Islamic ones such as not being allowed to believe in other religion? I know Islam and Christianity sprang out of Judaism. Does Buddhism have any relationship with other religions? What are the gods in Buddhism (if they have any)? Does the ying yang have to do with Buddhism? Well,enough questions for now. Hilary 26737 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 9:28pm Subject: Reply to Jimmy James: Thank you for the letter you sent me last week. I learnt something new from your last letter, including how to deal with teachers and friends, and how to not annoy the teachers. Anyway, can you teach me how to handle the homework and the projects? The teachers in my school SUCKS and they are VERY ANNOYING! Especially, my math teacher sucks the most. He dares to give us homework when there is a social studies presention, a Chinese journal and a math test next week. Is he an idiot, seriously? Anyway, can any of your Buddhist ideas help solve this problem? Looking forward to your reply. Philip Chui 26738 From: Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, k... Hi, Rob (and Connie) - In a message dated 11/7/03 11:16:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard and Connie, > > I had this nagging feeling that I owed you a response on this > subject. If I did, I hope that this response covers the earlier > questions as well. > ============================ Thank you for the detailed reply. (I won't copy it here due to its length.) It seems to me that from what you wrote that rupas come in three varieties: desirable, undesirable, and neutral, and that they lead, lockstep, to feelings that are respectively pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral. I also don't see what else there is to so-called desirability etc except their leading to these respective feelings, and thus I consider the distinction between being desirable and being pleasant, etc, as about as close to empty as anything can get. What is undesirable is what will be felt as unpleasant, etc. It also seems to me that you are saying that the Abhidhamma allows for the possibility of one craving what is felt as unpleasant, and hating what is felt as pleasant. I think that is contrary both to what the Buddha taught in the suttas, and contrary to experience. If we seem to crave an unpleasant feeling, it is not really that feeling we crave, but, another pleasant feeling such as for example the feeling of satisfaction that arises due to punishing ourself, because we feel unworthy. (Sometimes it feels good to feel bad!) I believe that if we watch closely enough, we will see that craving is *always* for the pleasant, and aversion *always* for the unpleasant, and when it seem otherwise, we are mistaking what is actually being felt as pleasant or unpleasant. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26739 From: Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/8/03 12:52:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > I obtained the following from Nyanatiloka's dictionary: > >>vipáka: 'karma-result', is any karmically (morally) neutral > mental > >>phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense- > consciousness, etc. ), > >>which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional > action (karma, q.v.) > >>through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some > previous life. > >>Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, > everything is the > >>result of previous action. Never, for example, is any karmically > wholesome or > >>unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being > in reality > >>itself karma. On this subject s. tittháyatana, karma, Tab. I; > Fund II. Cf. A. III, > >>101; Kath. 162 (Guide, p. 80). > > > > With regard to the statement "Never, for example, is any > karmically > >wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former > action, being in > >reality itself karma," some questions come to mind. Here, when he > speaks of > >"result," is only direct result meant, or is indirect result > incuded (so that > >if A conditions B and B conditions C, then C is not a result only > of B, but > >also of A)? If indirect result is included, then one has to ask: > Exactly what are > >the conditions (all non-kammic) for the arising of a volitional > action? > > The word of the day is.... ACCUMULATIONS!!! > > ========================= Rob, what exactly are the habits and tendencies that we call "accumulations"? What is it that lead to these habits? It seems to me that much, if not all, of what ultimately leads to our habits are prior volitional actions. And thus, current volitional actions conditioned by accumulations are, in fact, ultimately conditioned by previous, oft repeated, volitional actions. This is contrary to what Nyanatiloka says, and, to the position expressed in Abhidhamma. But it appears to me to be exactly the way things are. Has the Buddha said otherwise in the suttas? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26740 From: Sarah Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 10:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] English discussions Hi All (& Kom), Christine’s message has prompted me to say a little more: --- christine_forsyth wrote: > If the English Discussions were broadcast today - I missed it, and am > a little disappointed. > If it is on Saturdays at 9.00 a.m. Bangkok time, ... .... The group from California including Jack and Kom, have provided the equipment and made it possible for both the Thai and English talks and discussions led by A.Sujin in Bangkok to be broadcast by internet It was being tested out (as I think Jon mentioned) when we were there. (Chris, I still have an ‘image’ of the look of horror on your face as Betty casually informed us we were about to be broadcast round the world after I’d been encouraging you not to feel hesitant about asking your Qs;-)) It’s all in infant stage experimentation. Kom, Jack and others have also set up the new website for the Foundation which Chris just gave the link for: http://www.dhammastudyandsupport.com/ .... I know Kom’s been very busy with these projects and travels. The website’s very accessible (even for Mac users) and with C’s reminder, I just took another look and see a lot has been added now, including ‘Conditions’: List of Books http://www.dhammastudyandsupport.com/Framesetbooks.htm Conditions http://www.dhammastudyandsupport.com/book/Conditions/Framesetbooks.html I think the instructions for listening to the English and Thai talks are on the website and latest information about this should be there as well. Later, people will be able to participate too. Kom, if you’re reading this post, anumodana and please add any other details and if anyone listens to the discussions, I hope they’ll share any feedback or comments with us. Metta, Sarah ====== 26741 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 11:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, k... Hi Howard (and Connie); --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > It seems to me that from what you wrote that rupas come in three > varieties: desirable, undesirable, and neutral, and that they lead, lockstep, to > feelings that are respectively pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral. ===== R: Sorry Howard, the three types of rupas are undesireable, moderately desireable and very desireable. Sorry again Howard, there is (almost) no relationship between type of rupa and feeling. Irrespective of the type of rupa, sense-door adverting citta, sense consciousness (except body sense), receiving citta and determining citta are accompanied by indifferent feeling. However (this the "almost" above), there is a type of investigating citta that is accompanied by pleasant feeling and type of citta arises because the object is "very desireable" (ati-ittha). When we look at the chart of cittas, we will see that there are two types of sense-door cittas, two types of receiving cittas, and three types of investigating cittas. They are grouped under the heading of "akusala vipaka" (i.e. the resultant of past bad actions) and "kusala vipaka" (i.e. the result of past good actions). In a given citta process, the type of vipaka citta (akusala / kusala) which arises is determined by the intrinsic nature of the rupa. ===== > I also don't > see what else there is to so-called desirability etc except their leading to > these respective feelings, and thus I consider the distinction between being > desirable and being pleasant, etc, as about as close to empty as anything can > get. What is undesirable is what will be felt as unpleasant, etc. ===== R: Consider a smell that enters through the nose door. As a rupa, this smell will have an inherent characteristic of undesireable, moderately desireable or very desireable. Imagine that this smell is undesireable. The functional adverting citta which takes this object will be accompanied by indifferent feeling. Because it is undesireable, the next citta will be an akusala vipaka nose door consciousness, also accompanied by an indiffent feeling. Next will be an akusala vipaka receiving and then an akusala vipaka investigating citta. Both of these cittas will be accompanied by indifferent feeling. The functional determining citta will be accompanied by indifferent feeling. Based on your ACCUMULATIONS (there's that word again! :-) ), there are a number of possible outcomes: - Lobha-mula citta (may be accompanied by pleasant or indifferent feeling): this would be a perversion of perception - Dosa-mula citta (always accompanied by unpleasant mental feeling) - Moha-mula citta (always accompanied by indifferent feeling) - Kusala citta (may be accompanied by pleasant or indifferent feeling) - Kiriya citta (may be accompanied by pleasant or indifferent feeling): option only available if your are an Arahant ===== > It also seems to me that you are saying that the Abhidhamma allows for > the possibility of one craving what is felt as unpleasant, and hating what is > felt as pleasant. I think that is contrary both to what the Buddha taught in > the suttas, and contrary to experience. If we seem to crave an unpleasant > feeling, it is not really that feeling we crave, but, another pleasant feeling > such as for example the feeling of satisfaction that arises due to punishing > ourself, because we feel unworthy. (Sometimes it feels good to feel bad!) I > believe that if we watch closely enough, we will see that craving is *always* for > the pleasant, and aversion *always* for the unpleasant, and when it seem > otherwise, we are mistaking what is actually being felt as pleasant or unpleasant. One who has perversion of perception can crave for something that is intrinsically undesireable (pleasant is associated with a citta, not a rupa). Sorry, my kids are chasing me off the Internet so that they can do their homework. Metta, Rob M :-) 26742 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 11:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Rob, what exactly are the habits and tendencies that we call > "accumulations"? What is it that lead to these habits? It seems to me that much, if not > all, of what ultimately leads to our habits are prior volitional actions. And > thus, current volitional actions conditioned by accumulations are, in fact, > ultimately conditioned by previous, oft repeated, volitional actions. This is > contrary to what Nyanatiloka says, and, to the position expressed in > Abhidhamma. But it appears to me to be exactly the way things are. Has the Buddha said > otherwise in the suttas? ===== R: I am in the process of writing a mini-essay on the subject of accumulations and I intend to get it reviewed by K. Sujin next week (if I have the chance to meet her). I can guarantee you that I will post it on DSG when compelete. In a nutshell, my understanding is that accumulations are the product of oft-repeated volitional actions. Where does Nyanatiloka say something different? Metta, Rob M :-) 26743 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 0:11am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Christine and Rob M, The intrinsic pleasantness and unpleasantness of sense objects is a sticking point with a lot of people when they first think about it. But is it any different from all the other intrinsic qualities of paramattha dhammas? For example, what makes kusala kamma kusala and akusala kamma, akusala? In conventional daily life there is always disagreement over who was in the right, who was in the wrong and whether a person 'really meant any harm' etc. -- even more so than over the pleasantness or unpleasantness of pig poo and lilies, I would think. Other intrinsic qualities include the rightness of right understanding and the wrongness of wrong understanding. Imagine the mess we'd be in if these things were a matter of personal opinion. :-) Kind regards, Ken H > > Sorry to say I > > still don't see that any object can be inherently/intrinsically > > pleasant or unpleasant. Nor that the standard measure should be > what > > any particular species prefers. Is it possible that people are > > ignoring what they actually experience in daily life, and what > they > > can deduce from it by ordinary commonsense, while trying to force > > experiences to fit whatever the commentaries say? > > Anyway - I expect there isn't anymore that can be said - maybe I > > should just concentrate on the suttas, ordinary language, ordinary > > stories? > > I had been wrestling with this issue (intrinsic quality of rupa) in > the back the back of my mind for a couple of years. > > For me, the breakthrough came when my engineering mind analyzed the > sense door citta process. In this citta process, after the sense- 26744 From: mmlwin Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 1:08am Subject: Special News Item - Dr Mehn Tin Mon visiting London Special News Item - Dr Mehn Tin Mon in London Dear Dhamma Friends, The distinguished teacher, Sayagyi Dr. U Mehn Tin Mon of Myanmar (Burma) is visiting London shortly (8th to 16th November) at the invitation of Tisarana Vihara. Sayagyi is the author of "The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma" and many publications on Buddhism. Currently he teaches at the International Buddhist Missionary University, Kaba- aye, Yangon as visiting professor in Samatha Patipatti. (Brief Biography below) Should you have any specific queries on Abhidhamma and Samatha meditation, I will try to get the answers from him though he has very tight schedule which includes talks and short meditation course. Please post your questions to Triplegem Group ASAP http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Triplegem General Guidelines on 'Questions asked' - Do not ask on issues for which you can find answers easily elsewhere. - The question should be short and precise. Do not expect replies immediately, but these will be posted back to this forum in due course when available. There is no guarantee that all the questions will be answered. Best Wishes, Dr. Maung M Lwin, Organiser/Moderator at Triplegem Group http://www.nibbana.com -------------------------------------- *** Brief Biography of Dr Mehn Tin Mon *** He was born in kamawet village, Mudon township, Mon State. Union of Myanmar, on January 13, 1934. His parents were U Yaw In and Daw Sein Tan who were devout Buddhists. They belonged to the Mon race and made their living by farming. Mehm Tin Mon attended Kamawet Primary School and Mudon State High School where he topped his class every year. In the Bachelor of Science Examination held in 1955, he stood first with distinctions in Physics, Chemistry and Pure Mathematics. Again he was awarded a University gold medal called Esoof Bimiah Gold Medal. In 1957 he went to the United States of America to study at the University of Illinois on a State Scholarship sponsored by the Government of the Union of Myanmar. Here also he was awarded the University Fellowship for two consecutive years for his outstanding scholastic record. He gained the Master of Science Degree in1958 and the Doctorate Degree in 1960. He served his country for more than 36 years from 1956 to 1992 working as Lecturer and Head of Department of Chemistry in several Institutes and finally as Professor of Chemistry in the University of Mawlamyine (Moulmein). He retired from Professorship on December 1, 1992. During his service to the State, he headed the Buddhist Association of the Institute of Medicine (I), the Buddhist Association of the Institute of Education and the Buddhist Association of Mawlamyine (Moulmein) University. He also served as Secretary and later as President of the Central Buddhist Association of Universities and Institutes in Yangon from 1983 to 1986. He succeeded in raising funds and building the beautiful two-storeyed Dhammayone (Community Hall for religious purposes) and the sacred Shrine (Pagoda) in the University of Mawlamyine. Dr. Tin Mon also excelled in religious examinations. He stood first in the Abhidhamma Examination (Ordinary Level) in 1981. He also stood first in the Abhidhamma Examination (Honours Level) in 1983. Again in 1984 he stood first in the Visuddhi Magga Examination. These examinations are held annually in Myanmar by the Department of Religious Affairs. Dr. Tin Mon has written over thirty books on education as well as on Buddhism. He travelled throughout Myanmar deliverng lectures on Buddhism and conducting short intensive classes of Abhidhamma. He was awarded the title of Saddhamma Jotakadhaja by the Government of the Union of Myanfliat in 1994 for his outstanding contribution to the propagation of Buddhism. Dr. Tin Mon was appointed as an Adviser to the Ministry of Religious Affairs on August 1, 1993, and he has been serving the State in this capacity ever since. He teaches at the International Buddhist Missionary University, Kaba-aye, Yangon as visiting professor in Samatha Patipatti. The students attending the diploma and degree courses come from abroad. ( http://www.nibbana.com/univsity.htm ) - end - 26745 From: Sukin Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] English discussions Hi Christine and Sarah, We were having difficulties getting the thing started. There was some confusion and finally we decided against the idea of broadcasting the English discussions. Ivan came up with the information that unless the user had special 'fast' lines, there will be many problems and would turn people away from using the service after a while. He thought that it was O.K. for the Thais living abroad who liked to get together for discussions any way, that they could pool in to get these special lines. So after considering the matter, K. Sujin decided that it would be better to limit the service to Thai discussions only. So now the regular English discussions is also back to the afternoon. Metta, Sukin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine_forsyth" To: Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 11:58 AM Subject: [dsg] English discussions > Dear Kom, Num, Betty, Sukin, and all, > > If the English Discussions were broadcast today - I missed it, and am > a little disappointed. > If it is on Saturdays at 9.00 a.m. Bangkok time, that should mean > 11.00 a.m. Brisbane time, right? What a shame I didn't remember > until 2.45 p.m. Bris. time. :-) How did it go? Was it broadcast, or > are there still gremlins? > http://www.dhammastudyandsupport.com/ > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26746 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 2:47am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi KenH, Silly as it seems, the whole thing is getting to me. Isn't one of the catch cries of Abhidhamma "See for yourself whether something is so or not". Now it seems that we are being told "Believe what is written, I know it doesn't match what you have seen for yourself, but just accept it." Unless Kusala and Akusala have lost their meaning too, I do know pretty much that anything based on greed, hate and delusion is akusala kamma, and that anything based on non-greed, non-hate, and non-delusion is kusala kamma. Pig Dung - like its human excremental counterpart - is simply the end result of what goes in one end of the digestive system (hopefully the top end), is processed, has nutrients extracted, and passes out the other end. I don't think we are debating personal opinions of the pleasantness or otherwise of pig dung. I'd be quite happy to accept that opinions differ (even between pigs). I personally don't find the odour of pig dung attractive. But I don't demand that everyone (or every pig) feel the same way. I have no knowledge of the 'feel' of pig dung, or the 'taste' of pig dung, and I've never 'heard' it make a sound, but I don't 'think' it looks too bad compared to, say, elephant dung. (Apologies to any elephants I've offended). But what I find unbelievable is that pig dung has 'intrinsic' (belonging to the basic nature of the thing) unpleasantness. Anymore than coal or hen feathers have. Does this mean that the dung beetle, the earth worm, any passing flies, myself, and any pig dung afficionados, all have wrong view? :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Christine and Rob M, > > The intrinsic pleasantness and unpleasantness of sense > objects is a sticking point with a lot of people when > they first think about it. But is it any different from > all the other intrinsic qualities of paramattha dhammas? > For example, what makes kusala kamma kusala and akusala > kamma, akusala? In conventional daily life there is > always disagreement over who was in the right, who was in > the wrong and whether a person 'really meant any harm' > etc. -- even more so than over the pleasantness or > unpleasantness of pig poo and lilies, I would think. > > Other intrinsic qualities include the rightness of right > understanding and the wrongness of wrong understanding. > Imagine the mess we'd be in if these things were a matter > of personal opinion. :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H 26747 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > The intrinsic pleasantness and unpleasantness of sense > objects is a sticking point with a lot of people when > they first think about it. But is it any different from > all the other intrinsic qualities of paramattha dhammas? > For example, what makes kusala kamma kusala and akusala > kamma, akusala? In conventional daily life there is > always disagreement over who was in the right, who was in > the wrong and whether a person 'really meant any harm' > etc. -- even more so than over the pleasantness or > unpleasantness of pig poo and lilies, I would think. > > Other intrinsic qualities include the rightness of right > understanding and the wrongness of wrong understanding. > Imagine the mess we'd be in if these things were a matter > of personal opinion. :-) This was a sticking point with me for a long time (as was "free will"). As I look back, I think (at least in my case) that I really had a hard time accepting the quality of a rupa is not up to ME; just as I had a hard time accepting that decisions were not made by a ME (free will). Intrinsic qualities of rupa are opposed to self- view. Metta, Rob M :-) 26748 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 3:17am Subject: Inherent characteristics of rupa Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Silly as it seems, the whole thing is getting to me. Isn't one of > the catch cries of Abhidhamma "See for yourself whether something is > so or not". > Now it seems that we are being told "Believe what is written, I know > it doesn't match what you have seen for yourself, but just accept it." > Unless Kusala and Akusala have lost their meaning too, I do know > pretty much that anything based on greed, hate and delusion is > akusala kamma, and that anything based on non-greed, non-hate, and > non-delusion is kusala kamma. ====== I am truly sorry that this is disturbing you. It matches perfectly with my daily experience; the text has helped me put my experience into a new context. Perhaps my explanations have been too technical (I am an engineer) and confused rather than clarified. Feel free to put this topic aside for now and come back to it later. I have changed the title (no more talk about pig dung). Pig dung is an example given in the commentary, it is not a rupa. Let me go through the explanation without referring to the citta process and using temperature and smell as examples of rupas. Rupa #1 is a temperature, very close to body temperature; this rupa has an intrinsic quality of "moderately desireable"; only somebody with a perversion of perception would not agree Rupa #2 is a temperature, far away from body temperature (i.e. very hot or very cold); this rupa has an intrinsic quality of "undesireable"; only somebody with a perversion of perception would not agree Rupa #3 is a smell of rotten eggs (hydrogen sulfide to be precise); this rupa has an intrinsic quality of "undesireable"; only somebody with a perversion of perception would not agree Rupa #4 is a smell of freshly baked bread; this rupa has an intrinsic quality of "moderately desireable" (perhaps even "very desireable"); only somebody with a perversion of perception would not agree In the Dispeller of Delusion, they use the example of Nibbana as an object; this object has an intrinsic quality of "very desireable"; only somebody with a perversion of perception would not agree ===== > Does this mean that the dung beetle, the earth worm, > any passing flies, myself, and any pig dung afficionados, all have > wrong view? ===== The dung beetle, the earth worm, any passing flies, and any pig dung afficionados all have perversion of perception (perversion of view is another thing). Considering that it is delusion that gets one born into the animal realm, does this sound implausible? Metta, Rob M :-) 26749 From: Sarah Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma urgency to do good Hi Molly, Thank you for your quote and link which I’ve only just looked at: --- Molly wrote: > http://www.webcom.com/imcuk/ledi/MANUAL10.html RobM was just mentioning about planes of existence. I think, as with any other aspect of dhamma, it depends how these are considered as to whether there is any value on reflecting on the details. From your link at the beginning of the page, I just read: “All beings who drift and circulate in the long and beginningless round of rebirths called samsara rarely encounter a Buddha Sasana. They do not encounter a Buddha Sasana during the space of even a hundred thousand world-cycles. They do not get the opportunity of meeting a Buddha Sasana even once though an infinite number of world-cycles elapse. The number of existences and the number of world-cycles in which they have been afflicted by evils and errors predominate. Hence, in the mental make-up of a being, there are at all times an infinite number of kammas that can result in that being being cast in the Avici hell. In the same way, there are at all times an infinite number of kamma that can result in that being being cast in the Sanjiva and the rest of the other hells,[2] or in that being being reborn in the various kinds of peta, asurakaya, and animal existences.” **** Reading these words can be a condition for fear or other kinds of aversion, for disbelief, for wise reflection about the rarity of human life or for moments of awareness of realities. It just depends on conditions;-) Molly, I meant to welcome you before to DSG, but was waiting to look at the link. Can I persuade you to share a little about yourself, such as where you live and a little more about your interest in Buddhism? Thanks again for joining us. With metta, Sarah ======= 26750 From: Sarah Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Special News Item - Dr Mehn Tin Mon visiting London Dear Dr.Lwin, Welcome also to DSG. I believe this is your first message, though I remember RobertK forwarding a very helpful one on Abhidhamma a long time ago. Thank you also for informing us of the following and giving further details: --- mmlwin wrote: > Special News Item - Dr Mehn Tin Mon in London ..... I’m interested to know where the Tisarana Vihara in London is as I just can’t place it for now. It’s well over 20 years since I lived in London now. I used to have a lot of contact at the Chiswick Vihara when Ven Sadhatissa was there and less contact at the Thai temple at Wimbledon and a couple of others. I didn’t have any Burmese contact, I’m afraid. I’d also be interested to know where you live in London and how long you’ve been there and whether there is a large community from Myanmar. As you’ve probably read, some of us have just returned from a trip to this special country. .... > Should you have any specific queries on Abhidhamma and Samatha > meditation, I will try to get the answers from him though he has > very tight schedule which includes talks and short meditation > course. <...> > Do not expect replies immediately, but these will be posted back to > this forum in due course when available. There is no guarantee that > all the questions will be answered. .... As you’re a member of this group, I think it would be more helpful for us to post any questions here for you to convey to Dr Mehn Tin Mon. Thank you for kindly offering to share the replies with us here as well. This way we can all benefit from his knowledge and discuss any responses further. In appreciation of all your hard work for spreading the Dhamma and for your helpful website www.nibbana.com. Anumodana. With metta, Sarah ======== 26751 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 4:28am Subject: Thankyou for teaching me about the teachings of Buddhism! Dear James, Thankyou for the reply. From all of your replies, I've learnt alot of things. I've learnt that the Buddha does not believe in luck, or in any objects, the 5 teachings of kamma, Don't lie;Don't steal;Don't kill; Don't drink alcohol or take drugs; don't commit adultery, and more. Thankyou once again! For teaching me things about Buddhism. Metta, Sandy 26752 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > It is good that we have come to an accord in understanding that > something in the phrase "or to something more peaceful than that" > pertains to higher jhanas or higher level of samatha, but not > insight/vipassana. We were in agreement for a short time ;-)). When I made my comment agreeing with you on this I had seen Nina's post with the PTS translation of the commentary ('jhaana') but not her later post (No. 26359) with her own translation ('jhaana or path'). Bhikkhu Bodhi's note mentions no source for the view he expresses (jhaana). As you will recall, my initial 'guess' was enlightenment, so the commentary as translated by Nina makes sense to me. Can I persuade you to change your position on this, so that we can still be in agreement? Jon http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26359: Com. A~n~na.m vaa tato santataranti tato jhaanadvayato santatara.m a~n~na.m uparijhaanadvaya~nceva maggadvaya~nca. As to the expression something else more peaceful than that, this means: more peaceful than the two (stages of) jhaana are the two higher jhanas and the two Paths. A little later in the sutta the "or to something more peaceful than that" passage occurs again, the com. to that is: A~n~na.m vaa tato santataranti idha upari jhaanadvaya.m ceva cattaaro ca maggaa adhippetaa. As to the expression something more peaceful than that, this means: here are meant the two higher jhanas and the four Paths. Nina 26753 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 5:03am Subject: Re: Sayadaws of Myanmar: To Nina Dear Nina Of course, please feel free to forward the information to Pali list as well as to Jim. And, I also do not forget your request to create a sample of Nissaya text with English for you. If you would like to see a particular passage of Pali turned into a Nissaya text, please let me know, either by giving me the reference preferrably with a Section number rather than a page number, or an original Pali passage. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Suan, reflecting more on your impressive letter, I shall keep this for Jim and frwd to him when he is back. Do you allow me to frwd it to Pali list, the part dealing with the Sayadaws? This info should be more widely known. Nina. 26754 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 5:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: '"Sorry, I'm not with you. What do you mean by 'the > consciousness of consciousness'?" > > Hi Jon, > > Consciousness as object of consciousness, distinguished from its > object > and accompanying cetasikas. I believe consciousness is the same > regardless of object, cetasikas, sphere, plane and possibly (?) > function. Am I understanding this correctly? ... All moments of consciousness (citta) have both unique, individual characteristics as well as characteristics in common with other dhammas, including characteristics that are common to other moments of consciousness, characteristics that are common to other namas, and characteristics that are common to all other conditioned dhammas (nama or rupa). > ... When consciousness (A) is the > object of consciousness (B) is the object of A included with A as > object of B? Or would that make two objects? You ask what is known/experienced when a citta (i.e., the immediately fallen away citta, 'citta A') becomes the object of the succeeding citta ('citta B'). I think the answer would depend on the level of panna that accompanies citta B but, as I understand it, there can be no question of citta B experiencing both citta A and the object of citta A at the same moment. > ... If the object of A is not included, > then can you describe this consciousness of consciousness? > Doesn't this mean the object consciousness is arising without an > object itself? > If consciousness can't be distinguished from its object how do > we know they are two, not one? Let me know if you want more of this > spaghetti. Citta B accompanied by awareness and panna could see the characteristic of citta A as a dhamma that experiences an object (i.e., is a naama). I don't know if this helps untangle the spaghetti.;-)) Jon 26755 From: Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, k... Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/8/03 4:52:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > R: > Consider a smell that enters through the nose door. As a rupa, this > smell will have an inherent characteristic of undesireable, > moderately desireable or very desireable. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay, Rob. Exactly what does it *mean* to be desirable? Desirable by what standard? So far, 'desirable' seems to be only a word. ----------------------------------------------------- Imagine that this smell is > > undesireable. The functional adverting citta which takes this object > will be accompanied by indifferent feeling. Because it is > undesireable, the next citta will be an akusala vipaka nose door > consciousness, also accompanied by an indiffent feeling. Next will > be an akusala vipaka receiving and then an akusala vipaka > investigating citta. Both of these cittas will be accompanied by > indifferent feeling. The functional determining citta will be > accompanied by indifferent feeling. Based on your ACCUMULATIONS > (there's that word again! :-) ), there are a number of possible > outcomes: > ============================ In this case, the only effect of so-called undesirability seems to be some indifferent mindstates along the way. Can "desirable" rupas also lead to indifferent mindstates, and then, finally, accumulations set in to determine the ultimate affective response. If yes, then that would make desirability a straw man, both in well defined nature and in significant effect. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26756 From: Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/8/03 5:14:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > ===== > R: > I am in the process of writing a mini-essay on the subject of > accumulations and I intend to get it reviewed by K. Sujin next week > (if I have the chance to meet her). I can guarantee you that I will > post it on DSG when compelete. > > In a nutshell, my understanding is that accumulations are the > product of oft-repeated volitional actions. Where does Nyanatiloka > say something different? > > ============================= Why that is exactly MY understanding as well! Here's the problem: You gave acumulations as condition for kamma, and here you agree that accumulations are the product of oft-repeated volitional actions. This then makes kamma, derivatively, conditioned by prior kamma! But Nyanatiloka writes "Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality itself karma." This is an explicit contradiction. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26757 From: Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Hi, Rob (and Christine) - In a message dated 11/8/03 6:24:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > In the Dispeller of Delusion, they use the example of Nibbana as an > object; this object has an intrinsic quality of "very desireable"; > only somebody with a perversion of perception would not agree > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: For one who has not "experienced" nibbana, only the *idea* of nibbana might seem appealing. For one who experiences nibbana, desire, and hence desirability, does not apply. --------------------------------------------------- > > ===== > > >Does this mean that the dung beetle, the earth worm, > >any passing flies, myself, and any pig dung afficionados, all have > >wrong view? > > ===== > > The dung beetle, the earth worm, any passing flies, and any pig dung > afficionados all have perversion of perception (perversion of view > is another thing). > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly not. Using a pragmatic analysis, pig dung - actually the experiences associated with pig dung - is quite desirable, properly so, for the dung beetle. The rupas experienced by the dung beetle are not the same rupas experienced by us. Why in the world should we assume they are? ---------------------------------------------------- Considering that it is delusion that gets one > > born into the animal realm, does this sound implausible? > > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26758 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 9:21am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Ken H, > > ---would think. > > > > Other intrinsic qualities include the rightness of right > > understanding and the wrongness of wrong understanding. > > Imagine the mess we'd be in if these things were a matter > > of personal opinion. :-) > > This was a sticking point with me for a long time (as was "free > will"). As I look back, I think (at least in my case) that I really > had a hard time accepting the quality of a rupa is not up to ME; > just as I had a hard time accepting that decisions were not made by > a ME (free will). Intrinsic qualities of rupa are opposed to self- > view. > > Metta, __________ Dear RobM, I was hoping you would see this. Earlier you wrote that you thought this point unrelated to practice. However true practice is the giving up of the idea of self and this point is very tied up with the nature of paramatha dhammas as Ken explains so well. There are only momentary realities with their own intrinsic qualities – and then because of ignorance papanca grows into all sorts of theories and non-theories. The truth is just in the moment where surely this aspect of the Dhamma becomes clearer. In the Salayatanasamyutta 35:135 (p1207 Bodhi translation) "I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named 'Contact's sixfold base'. There whatever form one sees with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, disagreaable. Whatever sound..whatever taste..whatever odour.. "endquote And then the Buddha says that he has seen heavenly realms where the converse is true: whatever is seen, heard etc is agreeable etc. We live in the human realm where both agreeable and disagreeable objects experienced due to the nature of this plane. RobertK 26759 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 9:58am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Isn't one of > the catch cries of Abhidhamma "See for yourself whether something is > so or not". > > > Now it seems that we are being told "Believe what is written, I know > it doesn't match what you have seen for yourself, but just accept it." > > Pig Dung - like its human excremental counterpart - is simply the end > result of what goes in one end of the digestive system (hopefully the > top end), is processed, has nutrients extracted, and passes out the > other end. But what I find > unbelievable is that pig dung has 'intrinsic' (belonging to the > basic nature of the thing) unpleasantness. =========== Dear Christine, I think I don't have much concern over whether anyone believes anything in the Abhidhamma or commentaries or the suttas. If I think there are people who might benefit I sometimes quote from them but if anyone doesn't agree it is fine with me. Dhamma is not to be forced on anyone, it is a gift of extraordinary value and should be only be given with great reverence. The ancient monks wanted to help with simple examples so that the nature of rupa and nama can be better understood. Most people can see that excrement has an unpleasant odour. However in another section of the scritures it is noted that if one feeds on perfumed food then the odour could be pleasant. Likewise in the case of the touch sensation while the excrement is still soft and warm it is easy to see that the experience is kusala vipaka through the bodysense. However if it dries out and becomes hard then the experience through the bodysense is likely to be akusala vipaka . Because in so many places the Abhdidhamma details that in the ultimate sense there are only nama and rupa , ultimate realities, when the commentaries used the example of pig excrement these aspects were well understood by the listeners. However to explain Dhamma concepts such as pig excrement are very helpful to the one who can understand. The Abhidhammattha Vibhavani (Book 8) distinguishes between six kinds of concepts that are names, nama-pannatti (see Visuddhimagga VIII, note 11). 1. Vijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what is real, for example the words rupa, nama, vedana (feeling), or sanna (perception) 10. 2. Avijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner. These concepts do not represent absolute realities, citta and cetasika which are nama, and rupa. Thai or foreigner are not real in the absolute sense, they are conventional realities, sammutti dhammas. Could akusala citta11 (unwholesome consciousness) be Thai or foreign? Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a reality), it is a dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is not Thai or foreign. 3. Vijjamanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of the non- existent based on the existent. There is the expression "the person with the six abhinnas."12 The six abhinnas are real but person is not real. Thus this concept stands for what is real and for what is not real. 4. Avijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of the existent based on the non-existent. There is the expression "woman's voice". The sound is real, but the woman is not real. 5. Vijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of what is real based on what is real. There is the term cakkhu-vinnana (eye- consciousness). Cakkhu (eye) is a reality, namely the cakkhu-pasada- rupa (eyesense, a reality sensitive to colour or visible object), and vinnana (consciousness) is also a reality, namely the reality which experiences. 6. Avija amanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of what is not real based on what is not real. There is the expression "the kings son". Both king and son are not real, they are sammutti dhammas, conventional realities. (From Realities and Concepts – Sujin Boriharnwanaket.) Nina Van Gorkom points to this with her usual clarity.: "Once I was having lunch with "Khun Sujin," my good friend in the Dhamma, in a Chinese restaurant in Bangkok. I was served a duck's foot and when I looked at it I had aversion. Khun Sujin said, "Just taste it, try it, without paying attention to the shape and form." I tasted it without paying attention to the shape and form. The taste was good. At that time I did not understand yet the full meaning of Khun Sujin's lesson, but she wanted to show me that the experience through the eyes is one thing, ant eh experience through the tongue the eyes is one thing, and the experience through the tongue quite another thing and thus another reality. We join all the different experiences together into a "whole" and we think" "I am eating a duck's foot." Duck's foot is not a reality. What are the realities? There is the experience of visible object, there is visible object, there is attention to shape and form, and this is different from seeing, there is aversion, there is tasting, the experience of flavour, there is flavour, there is thinking of the flavour. Thus we see that there are different mental phenomena, namas, and physical phenomena, rupas, and these can be known one at a time. We can begin to develop right understanding of the realities of our life. If we do not come to know namas and rupas which appear one at a time, we believe that a duck's foot, a person, a house or a car realities which exist. However, these things are ideas, not ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas). Namas and rupas which can be experienced one at a time are realities"endquote http://www.abhidhamma.org/understanding%20reality.html RobertK 26760 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 11:13am Subject: Re: Reply to Jimmy --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > James: > > Thank you for the letter you sent me last week. I > learnt something new from your last letter, including > how to deal with teachers and friends, and how to not > annoy the teachers. > > Anyway, can you teach me how to handle the homework > and the projects? The teachers in my school SUCKS and > they are VERY ANNOYING! Especially, my math teacher > sucks the most. He dares to give us homework when > there is a social studies presention, a Chinese > journal and a math test next week. Is he an idiot, > seriously? Anyway, can any of your Buddhist ideas > help solve this problem? > > Looking forward to your reply. > > Philip Chui > Hi Star Kid Philip, You are welcome for my last letter. I hope that it will be of some benefit to you. However, from this letter I see that some of the things I wrote to you in that letter didn't stick. That is okay, I expected as much. It is not easy to change bad habits and it can't be done overnight. It isn't useful to think of your teachers as idiots. Your math teacher gives you homework because he wants you to learn math and to be smart. He isn't doing it because he is stupid or because he doesn't like his students (or you). Remember what I wrote in my last letter about having compassion for your teachers? Saying that your teachers suck and are idiots isn't very compassionate! ;-) Even thinking those kinds of things is just going to consume you and everyone around you in anger. As the Buddha taught, anger only causes more anger. Philip, I am not going to lie to you and tell you that all of your teachers are great. Teachers are human beings too and they have weaknesses. Sometimes they will give you too much homework and then blame you for not finishing it; and sometimes they will not explain an assignment properly and then blame you for not understanding. When this happens you might feel angry, frustrated, and irritated. But you need to ask yourself a question: What good do those feelings do? Do they help you? No. Do they help the teacher? No. What do they do? Answer: they just cause you to have more pain and suffering than the original problem. For example, if you allow your feelings to control you, three hours of homework actually becomes five hours of homework (three hours of actual work and two hours of getting carried away with thoughts of hate, anguish, and self-pity). If you just do the work without being upset about it, you will find that it gets done much faster than you thought possible. As the Buddha taught, you can control what your mind thinks about any given situation. Don't let your mind have control, choose to think good things rather than bad things. I know this may not be what you want to hear. You might even think that I am `not on your side'. But that isn't true; I am on your side. I wish you well in school and in your life. I have faith in you. Metta, James 26761 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 11:32am Subject: Re: buddhism Q's --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Hi James, > > so living in Eygpt does seem quite different. Are > there rules in Buddhism like the Islamic ones such as > not being allowed to believe in other religion? > I know Islam and Christianity sprang out of Judaism. > Does Buddhism have any relationship with other > religions? What are the gods in Buddhism (if they have > any)? Does the ying yang have to do with Buddhism? > Well,enough questions for now. > > Hilary Hi Star Kid Hilary! Thanks for writing. I hope you are doing well. You ask some good questions so let me get right to the answers: Question: Are there rules in Buddhism like the Islamic ones such as not being allowed to believe in other religion? Answer: No. The Buddha taught that his followers were to have tolerance for people of other religions and that no one should be forced to believe anything. He told people to test for themselves what he taught. If they chose to believe some of what he taught but not everything, that would be okay. The Buddha realized that people come from different backgrounds and that not everyone is at the same place. Question: I know Islam and Christianity sprang out of Judaism. Does Buddhism have any relationship with other religions? Answer: This is a very intelligent question! Yes, Buddhism did spring from another religion: Vedic/Brahmanism. This religion eventually became Hinduism, but Buddhism was different. It contains some of the same ideas of Vedic/Brahmanism, like karma and rebirth, but it also contained some new ideas, like dependent origination and non-self. Question: What are the gods in Buddhism (if they have any)? Answer: This depends on the type of Buddhism you mean. Tibetan Buddhism has several different gods and deities, of which I know very little about because I'm not that type of Buddhist. My type of Buddhism, predominately Theravada, doesn't have any gods. Question: Does the ying yang have to do with Buddhism? Answer: No, that symbol comes from Taoism. It is meant to represent the polar opposites in the universe, ying and yang, and how they combine to create the whole. I could tell you more but this is a Buddhist group and the moderators might not like that. ;-) Thanks for your questions. Take care and study hard in school. Metta, James 26762 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 11:34am Subject: Re: Thankyou for teaching me about the teachings of Buddhism! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thankyou for the reply. > > From all of your replies, I've learnt alot of things. > I've learnt that the Buddha does not believe in luck, > or in any objects, the 5 teachings of kamma, Don't > lie;Don't steal;Don't kill; Don't drink alcohol or > take drugs; don't commit adultery, and more. > > Thankyou once again! For teaching me things about > Buddhism. > > Metta, Sandy Hi Star Kid Sandy! You are most welcome. If you have any other questions don't hesitate to ask. Metta, James 26763 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 1:30pm Subject: Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, k... Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Okay, Rob. Exactly what does it *mean* to be desirable? Desirable by > what standard? So far, 'desirable' seems to be only a word. > ----------------------------------------------------- ===== To answer this question, the text introduces the concept of "average man" (majjhima-satta) and says, "It is distinguishable according to what is found desireable at one time and undesireable at another time by average men such as accountants, government officials, burgesses, land owners and merchants." Obviously, this list of professions is not to be taken too literally (after all, engineers and math teachers are not included :-) ). I interpret this as meaning, "normal people", i.e. not including masochists, perverts and wierdos; there is probably no Pali word for "wierdos" :-). ===== > Imagine that this smell is > > > undesireable. The functional adverting citta which takes this object > > will be accompanied by indifferent feeling. Because it is > > undesireable, the next citta will be an akusala vipaka nose door > > consciousness, also accompanied by an indiffent feeling. Next will > > be an akusala vipaka receiving and then an akusala vipaka > > investigating citta. Both of these cittas will be accompanied by > > indifferent feeling. The functional determining citta will be > > accompanied by indifferent feeling. Based on your ACCUMULATIONS > > (there's that word again! :-) ), there are a number of possible > > outcomes: > > > ============================ > In this case, the only effect of so-called undesirability seems to be > some indifferent mindstates along the way. Can "desirable" rupas also lead to > indifferent mindstates, and then, finally, accumulations set in to determine > the ultimate affective response. If yes, then that would make desirability a > straw man, both in well defined nature and in significant effect. ===== One could consider it a minor technical detail, but for me, coming to terms with it chopped off one more of the tentacles of self-view; no longer was the quality of a rupa up to ME. Extreme temperatures are undesireable, not because of ME not liking them, but because extreme temperatures are inherently undesireable. Metta, Rob M :-) 26764 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 1:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Why that is exactly MY understanding as well! Here's the problem: You > gave acumulations as condition for kamma, and here you agree that > accumulations are the product of oft-repeated volitional actions. This then makes kamma, > derivatively, conditioned by prior kamma! But Nyanatiloka writes "Never, for > example, is any karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result > of former action, being in reality itself karma." This is an explicit > contradiction. My mistake; the cause of kamma is javana cittas; boring, because you already knew that :-). Which javana cittas arise depend on the determining citta which is itself conditioned by accumulations (according to the Patthana, accumulations are a condition for all cittas) So we get two diagrams: Accumulations -> Determining citta -> Javana citta -> Kamma Accumulations -> Javana citta -> Kamma It is clear that Buddhist Logic only looks at direct conditions. Indirect conditions (conditions of conditions) are not listed; otherwise it would get too complicated. This is why eating meat is not breaking the first precept. Metta, Rob M :-) 26765 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 2:57pm Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Christine, ------------- C: > Silly as it seems, the whole thing is getting to me. Isn't one of the catch cries of Abhidhamma "See for yourself whether something is so or not". Now it seems that we are being told "Believe what is written, I know it doesn't match what you have seen for yourself, but just accept it." --------------- Yes but, in this case, 'what is written' is pretty easy to believe: good deeds bring good fruit; bad deeds bring bad fruit. Would we want it any other way? --------------- C: > Unless Kusala and Akusala have lost their meaning too, I do know pretty much that anything based on greed, hate and delusion is akusala kamma, and that anything based on non-greed, non-hate, and non-delusion is kusala kamma. --------------- Well yes, that does destroy my point about what makes kusala kamma kusala. Thank you very much. Cetana simply intends, doesn't it? It is the presence of kusala or akusala roots that makes cetana kusala or akusala. But I'm not beaten yet :-) ---------------- . . . C: > I don't think we are debating personal opinions of the pleasantness or otherwise of pig dung <. . . .> But what I find unbelievable is that pig dung has 'intrinsic' (belonging to the basic nature of the thing) unpleasantness. Anymore than coal or hen feathers have. Does this mean that the dung beetle, the earth worm, any passing flies, myself, and any pig dung afficionados, all have wrong view? :-) ---------- This introduces a new aspect to the debate -- to which I am happy to be distracted. I think the poor dung beetle does have perversion of perception. Even when starving and gleefully diving into a heap of lovely fresh pig dung, (with the thought, 'I must have done something good to deserve this'), he is, in fact, receiving the intrinsically unpleasant results of akusala kamma in former lifetimes. But this is just figurative story telling to describe absolute reality -- neither dung-beetle nor dung is ultimately real. So don't let it get to you, just repeat after me; "Good kamma, good fruit; bad kamma, bad fruit. Good kamma, good fruit . . . . " :-) Kind regards, Ken H PS: Just as I am about to post this, I see that Roberts M and K have commented much more authoratively. But, as Sarah tells me, I shouldn't compare, I should just post. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi KenH, > > Silly as it seems, the whole thing is getting to me. Isn't one of > the catch cries of Abhidhamma "See for yourself whether something is > so or not". > Now it seems that we are being told "Believe what is written, I know > it doesn't match what you have seen for yourself, but just accept it." 26766 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 3:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, I am a bit at loss now about what your position is... Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor [snip] 26767 From: Sarah Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 4:28pm Subject: Sue - May you have a peaceful day..... Dear Sue, May you have a peaceful day on the anniversary of your son’s passing away, with many wise reflections and awareness. In addition to all the kind and helpful letters sent to you recently, you may like to look at these ones from the archives saved under Useful Posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts If the links don’t work here, either go to U.P. or key in the numbers in search on the homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup Please put aside anything which is distressing for now. Death 381, 669 1903, 2235, 3921, 3930, 3990, 6819, 7986, 10575, 11456, 11462, 11513, 11587, 11612, 11628, 12530, 12993, 13743, 13767, 14253, 14642, 15787, 15942, 19875, 22630 Suicide 21715 I hope you feel able to share a little more of your reflections and any comments on what you’ve read to be of value in due course. With metta, Sarah p.s Yasa, I noticed that the last link was to a post of yours. If you’re still reading the messages here, we’d love to hear from you again. ====== 26768 From: Sarah Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 4:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - Dear Thomas. --- nordwest wrote: > We are together, and then we have to part again, this is not sad at all. > It's just natural like the seasons. .... I'm reflecting on your useful words again. It's true that all the sadness is due to ignorance and clinging only. When a friend lost her husband in difficult circumstances, she was reminded by K.Sujin to think of him as being like a wind or breeze passing by. So many winds and seasons pass by naturally. She found it very helpful at the time, I remember. It's not easy for me to even think about wisely. ..... >What is sad is a human lifetime not > used to do good, and to make spiritual progress. ... Another good reminder to make good use of this short life that may end at any time. In the ultimate sense, it's just as short as this moment. Look forward to more of your reminders. Metta, Sarah p.s thanks for taking note of the greeting and trim reminder;-) ;-) ================================== 26769 From: Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 0:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/8/03 5:10:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > It is clear that Buddhist Logic only looks at direct conditions. > Indirect conditions (conditions of conditions) are not listed; > otherwise it would get too complicated. This is why eating meat is > not breaking the first precept. > ======================== Ahh! Very good. This clarifies the issue and explains away the problem to my satisfaction. Thanks. [The question of direct vs both direct and indirect was something I raised in my original post on this topic. You've answered it here, removing any problem.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26770 From: Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 0:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, k... Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/8/03 5:16:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > In this case, the only effect of so-called undesirability > seems to be > >some indifferent mindstates along the way. Can "desirable" rupas > also lead to > >indifferent mindstates, and then, finally, accumulations set in to > determine > >the ultimate affective response. If yes, then that would make > desirability a > >straw man, both in well defined nature and in significant effect. > > ===== > > One could consider it a minor technical detail, but for me, coming > to terms with it chopped off one more of the tentacles of self-view; > no longer was the quality of a rupa up to ME. Extreme temperatures > are undesireable, not because of ME not liking them, but because > extreme temperatures are inherently undesireable. > > ========================= Okay, I see. I understand why this has been and is an important issue to you. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26771 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 6:16pm Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Rob, Thank you for sharing your background. What speaks to you does not necessarily means that it is Dhamma. In other words, you recognized what reflects in your personal philosophy; however, what you found parallel to your personal philosophy does not necessarily mean that it is the Dhamma. I would recommend the discourse Anguttara Nikaya VIII.53 Gotami Sutta To Gotami http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-053.html Peace, Victor 26772 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Howard You make a good point when you say: "The rupas experienced by the dung beetle are not the same rupas experienced by us. Why in the world should we assume they are?" I think this is important to appreciate. And by the same token, the rupas experienced by different people are not the same either, even by 2 people who are experiencing the same object at the same time. This is because 'the rupa being experienced' (a moment of sense-door consciousness) cannot be equated with 'the object being experienced' (a shorthand reference to a complex set of underlying phenomena and factors). (This is the significance of the comment already made by someone in this discussion that any example given in the texts in terms of a conventional object is general and illustrative, and to be understood as such.) I also agree with your comment that: "... pig dung - actually the experiences associated with pig dung - is quite desirable, properly so, for the dung beetle." What you are saying, I think, is that any object that conditions pleasant feeling in, or is perceived as being of benefit to, a person is a desirable object for that person. Here, the 'desirableness' of the object lies in the inherent tendencies of, or the perception of, the person towards the object. Let's call this, for convenience, 'subjective desirableness/undesirableness'. However, the question under discussion is whether, apart from that aspect -- i.e., excluding for the moment the (subjective) experiences/attitudes/inherent tendencies of the person experiencing the object -- there is any sense in which an object or, more correctly, a rupa that is taken for an object, has an inherent quality that distinguishes rupa-experienced-as-result-of-*kusala*-kamma from rupa-experienced-as-result-of-*akusala*-kamma. Let's call this, for want of a better word than 'desirable' in this context, 'objective desirableness/undesirableness'. (Note that the question as posed does not assume a desirableness/undesirableness that is necessarily apparent to or ascertainable by the 'person experiencing' the rupa.) I know that you already appreciate the distinction between the subjective and objective senses of 'desirable/undesirable', and that your position is that there is no such thing as the latter as regards rupas. However, I would be interested to know the basis for your position, other than your personal experience of the world (on which here, as on most other topics that come up for discussion, I'm sure our differences are few and minor ;-)). To my reading, the teachings do make a distinction between (a) the experiencing of that which is desired by/desirable to a person, or not, in the conventional sense and (b) the experiencing that is kusala or akusala vipaka. The former is referred to in the teachings in various ways including the 8 'worldly conditions' (loka-dhamma) of gain and loss, honour an dishonour, happiness and misery, and praise and blame. The latter is referred to in other terms unrelated to conventional values or individual preferences, such as for example in terms of the heavenly or hell realms where all objects experienced are either of 1 kind or the other. References in the texts to 'association with the liked and separation from the disliked' would, I imagine, encompass both (but I am just guessing here). Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob (and Christine) - ... > > The dung beetle, the earth worm, any passing flies, and any pig > dung > > afficionados all have perversion of perception (perversion of > view > > is another thing). > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Certainly not. Using a pragmatic analysis, pig dung - > actually the > experiences associated with pig dung - is quite desirable, properly > so, for the > dung beetle. The rupas experienced by the dung beetle are not the > same rupas > experienced by us. Why in the world should we assume they are? > ---------------------------------------------------- 26773 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 11:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I am a bit at loss now about what your position is... Sorry about that ;-)). My 'position' on the passage "or to something more peaceful than that" is that, as quoted by Nina in her post to Steve, the commentary gives the meaning of higher levels of samatha/jhaana, or the paths (and I take 'paths' as a reference to enlightenment), and I that am happy to accept that for the purpose of further discussion. But I think you suggested in a post to Nina that this was something that could be put aside for the purpose of the discussion on the main issue, and I would agree with that (although you are of course welcome to share your position if you would like to ;-)) My position on the main issue, which began as a discussion on the importance of concentration in the development of samatha/the jhaanas, but has developed into a discussion on the importance of concentration/samatha/the jhaanas in the development of insight/enlightenment, is reflected in my most recent post to you (in which I reply to your last post to me before the Myanmar trip, which you kindly drew my attention to on my return). This post is at message No. 26541, in case you missed it. I hope that has clarified things and brought us up to date ;-)) Jon http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26541 26774 From: nordwest Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 11:09pm Subject: Science: Jesus may studied Buddhism before teaching Christianity Puri, India -- Did Jesus Christ ever visit the pilgrim city of Puri during his "unexplained twelve years" of life? We would know soon if German scholar H J Trebst's research to unearth the missing twelve years of Christ's life bears fruit. Dr Trebst, who had invited the scholars of this ancient city, yesterday said according to some scholars of the Orient and the West, Jesus had visited Puri where he had studied Veda and Yoga before returning home to preach Christianity. Jesus Christ had also studied Buddhism in the Indian sub-continent, the scholar, who had done extensive research in Ladhakh and Nepal to trace evidence of Christ's itinerary in the Indian sub-continent, said. A seminar was also organised under the aegis of Jagannath Gabeshana Parishad where eminent scholars like Dr Harekrushna Satapathy, Dr Siddheswer Mohapatra, Jagabandhu Padhi, Dr Debendra Dash and others deliberated over the Hindu religious texts which mentioned the activities of Jesus. Dr Trebst said 2,000 years ago Puri was a famous seat of learning and history has revealed that over the centuries religious leaders of various sects and cults had visited this holy shrine. It was most likely that Jesus had also visited this holy seat of learning, he said, though adding that it was a very difficult task to trace the history of his visit to Puri. The German scholar was, however, optimistic that the scholars of the pilgrim city would be of immense help in analysing the ancient manuscripts and scriptures on the visit of Jesus. Meanwhile, the local research scholars have suggested Dr Trebst to go through the library of the Jagatguru Sankeracharya, the oldest in the state, which had a large collection of palm leaf manuscripts since the time of Aadi Sanker (about 4th century BC) to find out the missing links in the life of Christ. From Buddhist News Network http://www.buddhistnews.tv/current/jesus-india-071103.php 26775 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 0:07am Subject: Buddhism for Beginners Dear Group, For those looking for a basic course in Buddhism: http://www.nibbana.com/ Scroll down to Section B, Theravada II "Buddhism Course for Beginners" It will run from January to June 2004 and consists of weeky lectures by email. The Lecturers are mainly Theravadin Monks from the UK and USA and some lay persons. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26776 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > It occured to me that the tranquility of consciousness cetasika may > relate to the objects of consciousness, establishing a bias in > favor of > objects more condusive to tranquility. Hence the 40 meditation > objects. > If I am undersanding consciousess correctly, consciousness itself > is never in need of tranquilizing. As we have discussed before, 'tranquillity' is a mental factor that accompanies every kusala citta. Thus it accompanies kusala cittas that are kusala of the level of dana and sila as well as kusala cittas of the level of samatha. As I understand it, the relationship between the 40 meditation subjects and tranquillity of the level of samatha is as follows: 1/ There can be useful (i.e., wholesome) mind-states whatever the present subject that consciousness has as object. Useful (wholesome) mind-states are not confined to the 40 subjects given in the Visuddhi-Magga. 2/ However, only certain subjects of wholesome mind-states (i.e., the 40) are capable of supporting the development of *high levels of kusala concentration/absorption* in the subject. 3/ Then again, however, there is nothing in those subjects per se that means that the mind-state is more likely to be kusala than akusala. Those subjects can also be the object of akusala mind-states. It all depends on the person's understanding and other accumulated tendencies. Merely having the intention to develop samatha, for example, does not make the mind-state a kusala one or more likely to be so. Jon A couple of points of clarification: a/ When you say 'consciousness itself is never in need of tranquilizing', I think you refer to consciousness (citta) per se as opposed to [consciousness and] its accompanying mental factors (cetasikas). But since there is never any consciousness without mental factors, this distinction doesn't really have any bearing here, I think. b/ Every citta is 1 of 4 kinds, kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya; we are concerned here only with kusala and akusala cittas (i.e., those cittas arising in the javana process). 26777 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 1:18am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Dear RobertK, RobM, and KenH, Thanks for for the time and effort you have expended attempting to explain the intrinsic pleasantness/unpleasantness of rupa topic. I guess I am a lost cause where anything beyond the basic terms in Abhidhamma is concerned. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26778 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 1:41am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > > I would recommend the discourse > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.53 > Gotami Sutta > To Gotami > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-053.html Thanks for the link (nice short Sutta with a clear message). Metta, Rob M :-) 26779 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 1:55am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Thanks for for the time and effort you have expended attempting to > explain the intrinsic pleasantness/unpleasantness of rupa topic. I > guess I am a lost cause where anything beyond the basic terms in > Abhidhamma is concerned. In the past, I have "laid aside" topics after chewing on them for a while without result. Later, when conditions were right, I revisited the topics and things fell into place. I "laid aside" this very topic for a number of months. At this point in your life, I suspect that it might be a better use of your (considerable) mental energy to apply yourself to another topic that helps deepen your own practice and/or helps others (through you participation in DSG). Karuna, Rob M :-) 26780 From: Mahavir Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 4:27am Subject: Advanced discussions in Jainism Hi! If you are interested in discussing about the Soul, God, Universe, Time etc. according to Jain philosophy, please join: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kundkund This group is joined by many Jain scholars woedover and you can get answers to your any questions about Jain philosophy from them. Mahavir Sanglikar 26781 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 6:18am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 21 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 21. 12. In the second tetrad, the four kinds of knowledge classed as that concerned with meaning, etc., are called the "four discriminations". For this is said: 'Knowledge about meaning is the discrimination of meaning (attha-pa.tisambhidaa). Knowledge about law is the discrimination of law (dhamma-pa.tisambhidaa). Knowledge about enunciation of language dealing with meaning and law is the discrimination of language (nirutti-pa.tisambhidaa). Knowledge about kinds of knowledge is discrimination of perspicuity (pa.tibhaana-pa.tisambhidaa)' (Vbh. 293). 21. dutiyacatukke catasso pa.tisambhidaa naama atthaadiisu pabhedagataani cattaari~naa.naani. vutta~nheta.m -- ``atthe ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. dhamme~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. tatradhammaniruttaabhilaape ~naa.na.m niruttipa.tisambhidaa. ~naa.nesu ~naa.na.m pa.tibhaanapa.tisambhidaa''ti (vibha0 718). 26782 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, k... Daer Howard, It is a difficult subject, but according to the texts, all four distortions can be object of perception, citta and wrong view. Another remark: there is perversity with each akusala citta. Nina. op 07-11-2003 17:30 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > BTW, in the Anguttara Nikaya, in IV, 52 (Distortions of Perception), > the Buddha says there are four distortions of perception, thought, and views: > Holding that in the impermanent there is permanence, that in suffering there > is > happiness, that in what is non-self there is self, and that in the foul there > is beauty. This, as I see it, pertains to sa~n~na. 26783 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sayadaws of Myanmar: To Nina Dear Suan, Thank you, it is very kind of you to offer a nissaya text, I am realy delighted. I know how busy you are, and it depends on your time. I have an idea. It is very beneficial to reflect on the five khandhas, I never have enough of this. I shall give below the passage of Vis. we also have read with Larry. op 08-11-2003 14:03 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Of course, please feel free to forward the information to Pali list > as well as to Jim. > And, I also do not forget your request to create a sample of Nissaya > text with English for you. > > If you would like to see a particular passage of Pali turned into a > Nissaya text, please let me know. N: Visuddhimagga XIV, 33 just before ruupakkhandha (and in tetx it is the end of 443); <33. aya.m pana vitthaaro, ya.m taava vutta.m ``khandhaayatanadhaatuindriyasaccapa.ticcasamuppaadaadibhedaa dhammaa bhuumii''ti, ettha khandhaati pa~nca khandhaa ruupakkhandho vedanaakkhandho sa~n~naakkhandho sa"nkhaarakkhandho vi~n~naa.nakkhandhoti.> With great appreciation. Nina. 26784 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 35 Hi Howard, I am glad you ask. op 08-11-2003 01:09 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > In a message dated 11/7/03 6:30:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... > writes: > >> Vis. 35. Herein (a) "primary materiality" is of four kinds as the earth >> element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their >> characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the >> definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, 87, 93); but as to the >> proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444] >> > ============================ H: Supposedly all rupa is either primary or derived from primary rupa. I > do not understand this. How, for example, is visual object or sound derived > from earth, air, fire,and water? What does it mean for these to be derived > from > them, and what is the means/mechanism of such derivation? N: Visible object and sound do not arise alone, they need the four primary rupas to accompany them as a foundation. However, only one characteristic is experienced at a time. When sound is experienced the accompanying primaries are not experienced at the same time. Sound can be soft or loud, and sometimes we say, it hurts our ears. Then it is not sound that is experienced, but the accompanying eart element (solidity)which hits bodysense in the ear. Sound can break a building, then it is the accompanying earth element that does so. Now, we should not mix in physics, because the goal of science is different form the goal of the teachings, which is the elimination of the idea of person that can control events and eventually of all defilements. The more we learn about conditions the more it will help us to eliminate clinging to self. That is why it is useful to learn that rupa does not arise alone, but in groups of other rupas that condition it. In each group there have to be the primaries, these are the foundation of the other rupas. Derived rupas: upaadaa: PED: taking up, subsisting on something else, secondary. They are dependent on the four primaries, cannot arise without them. They hold on to them. Grasping may give a notion of clinging, but rupas do not cling. Holding on renders more the idea of being dependent. There are different intensities of the hardness of the earth element, the heat of the fire element, etc. and this causes a great variety of visible object or sound which are dependent on them. I may not have time for your post on contact today, since I spent my day yesterday with pleasant eyecontacts, intrinsically desirable visible object, looking at the golden coloured trees. When getting tired the hardness was not desirable, a different contact, conditioning painful feeling. The wind element was not strong enough to do the moving about swiftly to adjacent locations! Nina. 26785 From: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/9/03 1:35:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > You make a good point when you say: > "The rupas experienced by the dung beetle are not the same rupas > experienced by us. Why in the world should we assume they are?" > > I think this is important to appreciate. And by the same token, the > rupas experienced by different people are not the same either, even > by 2 people who are experiencing the same object at the same time. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: We agree completely here. ----------------------------------------------- > > This is because 'the rupa being experienced' (a moment of sense-door > consciousness) cannot be equated with 'the object being experienced' > (a shorthand reference to a complex set of underlying phenomena and > factors). (This is the significance of the comment already made by > someone in this discussion that any example given in the texts in > terms of a conventional object is general and illustrative, and to be > understood as such.) ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Still in agreement. ---------------------------------------------------- > > I also agree with your comment that: > "... pig dung - actually the experiences associated with pig dung - > is quite desirable, properly so, for the dung beetle." > > What you are saying, I think, is that any object that conditions > pleasant feeling in, or is perceived as being of benefit to, a person > is a desirable object for that person. Here, the 'desirableness' of > the object lies in the inherent tendencies of, or the perception of, > the person towards the object. Let's call this, for convenience, > 'subjective desirableness/undesirableness'. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: We may be starting to diverge here. As I see it, the *particular rupa that arises* in a given mind stream, with its desirableness or undesirableness (which I take to be its pleasant or unpleasant "taste"), is conditioned by the accumulations of that mind stream along with other conditions. -------------------------------------------------------- > > However, the question under discussion is whether, apart from that > aspect -- i.e., excluding for the moment the (subjective) > experiences/attitudes/inherent tendencies of the person experiencing > the object -- there is any sense in which an object or, more > correctly, a rupa that is taken for an object, has an inherent > quality that distinguishes > rupa-experienced-as-result-of-*kusala*-kamma from > rupa-experienced-as-result-of-*akusala*-kamma. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think what I just wrote prior to this explains my understanding. The only rupas that are relevant here are those that actually arise in the namarupic stream involved, and, as I understand it, a rupa that arises in a given mind stream already carries with it the vedanic flavor that makes it desired or the disliked by the given "being". If at one time a given rupa is unpleasant and at another time "the same" rupa is felt as pleasant, these are, in fact, *not* the same rupas, because they differ not only in time and context of occurrence, but also in that one is undesirable and the the is undesirable. Of course, if 'desirable' and 'undesirable' mean something other than inducing desire or aversion, then this all goes out the window. But, in that case, it is obligatory on the user of these terms to spell out exactly what s/he means by 'desirable' and 'undesirable' - desirable for what? in what sense? by what criteria? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Let's call this, for> > want of a better word than 'desirable' in this context, 'objective > desirableness/undesirableness'. > > (Note that the question as posed does not assume a > desirableness/undesirableness that is necessarily apparent to or > ascertainable by the 'person experiencing' the rupa.) > > I know that you already appreciate the distinction between the > subjective and objective senses of 'desirable/undesirable', and that > your position is that there is no such thing as the latter as regards > rupas. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't quite claim that. I only say that no objective criterion has been given. I offer "tending to induce desire" or "bearing pleasant taste" as criterion. ----------------------------------------------------- However, I would be interested to know the basis for your> > position, other than your personal experience of the world (on which > here, as on most other topics that come up for discussion, I'm sure > our differences are few and minor ;-)). > > To my reading, the teachings do make a distinction between (a) the > experiencing of that which is desired by/desirable to a person, or > not, in the conventional sense and (b) the experiencing that is > kusala or akusala vipaka. The former is referred to in the teachings > in various ways including the 8 'worldly conditions' (loka-dhamma) of > gain and loss, honour an dishonour, happiness and misery, and praise > and blame. The latter is referred to in other terms unrelated to > conventional values or individual preferences, such as for example in > terms of the heavenly or hell realms where all objects experienced > are either of 1 kind or the other. References in the texts to > 'association with the liked and separation from the disliked' would, > I imagine, encompass both (but I am just guessing here). > > Jon > ============================= Jon, I hope that my several interspersed remarks make clear my take on this matter. In any case, I don't see us as having any strong differences on this issue. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26786 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 7:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, I am not quite sure what you are trying to argue or why. Please refer to the exchange in messages 26355 and 26363. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26355 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26363 Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor [snip] 26787 From: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 35 Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/9/03 10:10:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > I am glad you ask. > op 08-11-2003 01:09 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > >In a message dated 11/7/03 6:30:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... > > >writes: > > > >>Vis. 35. Herein (a) "primary materiality" is of four kinds as the earth > >>element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their > >>characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the > >>definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, 87, 93); but as to the > >>proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444] > >> > >============================ > H: Supposedly all rupa is either primary or derived from primary rupa. I > >do not understand this. How, for example, is visual object or sound derived > >from earth, air, fire,and water? What does it mean for these to be derived > >from > >them, and what is the means/mechanism of such derivation? > N: Visible object and sound do not arise alone, they need the four primary > rupas to accompany them as a foundation. However, only one characteristic is > experienced at a time. When sound is experienced the accompanying primaries > are not experienced at the same time. Sound can be soft or loud, and > sometimes we say, it hurts our ears. Then it is not sound that is > experienced, but the accompanying eart element (solidity)which hits > bodysense in the ear. Sound can break a building, then it is the > accompanying earth element that does so. > ================================ This is very clear. The secondary rupas require the presence/foundation of the primary ones, but not vice-versa; so they are derivative *in the sense* of subordinatively requiring the primary rupas for their own presence. As far as only one at a time being experienced, I take it that the others (the ones not being experienced) are either "subliminally" present in consciousness, or are not at all present in consciousness, but have all conditions in place for their appearance, and are in "waiting mode" or are "queued up" as it were. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26788 From: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/9/03 10:41:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes the following error-filled paragraph: > Howard: > I think what I just wrote prior to this explains my understanding. The > only rupas that are relevant here are those that actually arise in the > namarupic stream involved, and, as I understand it, a rupa that arises in a > given > mind stream already carries with it the vedanic flavor that makes it desired > or > the disliked by the given "being". If at one time a given rupa is unpleasant > > and at another time "the same" rupa is felt as pleasant, these are, in fact, > > *not* the same rupas, because they differ not only in time and context of > occurrence, but also in that one is undesirable and the the is undesirable. > ========================= The preceding, properly repaired, becomes the following: "I think what I just wrote prior to this explains my understanding. The only rupas that are relevant here are those that actually arise in the namarupic stream involved, and, as I understand it, a rupa that arises in a given mind stream already carries with it the vedanic flavor that makes it desired or disliked by the given "being". If at one time a given rupa is unpleasant and at another time "the same" rupa is felt as pleasant, these are, in fact, *not* the same rupas, because they differ not only in time and context of occurrence, but also in that one is undesirable and the other is undesirable." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26789 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 8:28am Subject: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Rob, No problem. The criteria for distinguishing the Buddha's teaching from what is not are clearly stated in the Gotami Sutta. These criteria can be used to examine one's personal philosophy, as well as the content in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > > > I would recommend the discourse > > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.53 > > Gotami Sutta > > To Gotami > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08- 053.html > > Thanks for the link (nice short Sutta with a clear message). > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 26790 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 8:48am Subject: earth, water, fire, air Hi all, I wonder if we can say earth, water, fire, and air are three energies and one mass. The phenomenon we think of as air is actually a complex manifestation of the 4 element group. The same goes for the other three. Since the appearance of movement is actually the regeneration of a 4 element continuum in a slightly different location, perhaps we could say air energy is regeneration energy with a tie to location, which must have something to do with extension (earth?). When I touch this table with my finger there is hardness (earth) but there is also a force behind that hardness, pushing, and a resistance by the table. Are both the pushing and the resistance a manifestation of air energy as regeneration in a particular location? Could we say that fire is process energy that accounts for the "aging" of the 4 element group through successive regenerations? Does "aging" manifest as both physical changes and heat? Water holds the 4 element group together and also (?) holds discrete manifestations (molecules) of the 4 element group together. Is water gravitational or electrical energy? If there is a continuum of the 4 element group is there ever a cessation of this continuum? Does the continuation or end of the universe rely on the water element the same way as the continuation of the namarupa continuum relies on desire? Is desire responsible for holding namarupa together, forming it into groups and ultimately individuals? Regarding light, sound, object of taste, odor, object of touch: perhaps we can say when a tree falls in the forest there is no sound unless there is an ear with consciousness that hears it. There are sound waves but no sound. The same goes for light, object of taste, and odor. These are unique manifestations of the mind-body interface. Sound waves etc. are just particular kinds of 4 element manifestation. Object of touch is not unique to the mind-body interface but is directly manifested as the 4 element group. Something to think about. Larry 26791 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 11:56am Subject: Egypt Update: A Joke I met a young gay man here in Cairo, a university student. We met each other through the Internet. We were walking from one part of the city to another and telling each other our coming out stories. Mine was much more pleasant than his, as his contained a suicide attempt less than a year ago. As part of my story I told him how I had attended gay youth groups before and during college; and stated matter of factly that Cairo probably doesn't have any such groups. He replied, "No, the only gay groups we have are in the prisons." I laughed and he laughed. It is funny how the human spirit will shine through even in the face of such adversity. 26792 From: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Update: A Joke Hi, James - In a message dated 11/9/03 3:58:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > I met a young gay man here in Cairo, a university student. We met > each other through the Internet. We were walking from one part of > the city to another and telling each other our coming out stories. > Mine was much more pleasant than his, as his contained a suicide > attempt less than a year ago. As part of my story I told him how I > had attended gay youth groups before and during college; and stated > matter of factly that Cairo probably doesn't have any such groups. > He replied, "No, the only gay groups we have are in the prisons." I > laughed and he laughed. It is funny how the human spirit will shine > through even in the face of such adversity. > ======================== Yep! And so long as we can keep our sense of humor, though often it must be a wry, ironic humor, we remain victorious. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26793 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 5:04pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Victor, Rob M. and All, > The criteria for distinguishing the Buddha's teaching from what is > not are clearly stated in the Gotami Sutta. These criteria can be > used to examine one's personal philosophy, as well as the content in > the Abhidhamma Pitaka. Victor, long time no speak. As I still got the impression that you do not have any high regard for the Abhidhamma, would you mind giving your own analysis of it based on the criterion as put forward by the Buddha in the Gotami Sutta? I think this is going to evolve into an interesting thread. ;-) Metta, Sukin. 26794 From: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 5:30pm Subject: Vism. XIV 37 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 37. 1. Herein, the eye's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of visible data; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to see.(14) Its function is to pick up [an object](15) among visible data. It is manifested as the footing of eye-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to see. ------------------ 14. 'Here the first-mentioned characteristic of the eye is described according to the kamma that produces a selfhood, and is common to all of it, and this without touching on differentiation is the cause. The second is according to the specialized kamma generated thus, 'Let my eye be thus'. This is what they say. But it can be taken that the first-mentioned characteristic is stated as sensitivity's interest in lighting up its own objective fields, the five senses' state of sensitivity being taken as a generality; and that the second is stated as the seeing that is due to the particular division of its own cause, the sensitivities' cause as the state of kamma being taken as a generality or as a unity. The same method applies to the ear and so on. 'Here it may be asked, "Is the arising of the faculties of the eye, etc., due to kamma that is one or to kamma that is different?" Now the ancients say, "In both ways". Herein, firstly, in the case of the arising of an eye, etc., due to kamma that is different there is nothing to be explained since the cause is divided up. But when their arising is due to kamma that is one, how does there come to be differentiation among them? It is due to dividedness in the cause too. For it is craving, in the form of longing for this or that kind of becoming that, itself having specific forms owing to hankering after the sense-bases included in some kind of becoming or other, contrives, acting as decisive-support, the specific divisions in the kamma that generates such a kind of becoming. As soon as the kamma has acquired the differentiation induced by that [hankering] it generates that effort consisting in appropriate ability a multiple fruit with differentiated essences, as though it had itself taken on a multiple form. And the ability here need not be understood as anything other than the able state; for it is simply the effort of producing fruit that is differentiated by the differentiation due to the differentiation in its cause. And the fact of this differentiating effort on the part of kamma that is one being the cause of the multiple faculties will be dealt with below as to logic and texts (note 21). Besides, it is told how one kind of consciousness only is the cause of the generation of the ripe, the unripe, the husked, and the unhusked fruit. But what is the use of logical thinking? For the eye, etc., are the fruit of kamma; and kamma-result is exclusively the province of a Buddha's knowledge' (Pm. 444). 15. Aavi~njana--'picking-up': see "aavijjhati" in P.T.S. Dict. 26795 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 5:39pm Subject: Accumulations - for comment Vasana (Tendency that Continues) ================================ A fundamental principle of Buddhism is that everything arises because of conditions; there is no God and no self to "decide" things. The Patthana, the seventh book of the Abhidhamma, explains conditional relations; ways in which one thing can be a condition for another. One of these modes of conditioning is "natural decisive support" (pakatupanissaya). Natural decisive support works as a condition when one of the following factors is present: - Some strong past concepts - Strong past citta / cetasika - Strong past rupa "Strong" means that the past object made a powerful impression at the time or that the object was frequently encountered in the past. "Past" does not only include experiences in the current lifetime, but also experiences from previous lifetimes. In other words, habits, accumulations, strong past impressions and past solemn vows condition the present through natural decisive support. Accumulations are the conditioning factors, natural decisive support is the mode of conditioning, but what is conditioned? The texts explain that all 89 cittas and their associated cetasikas are conditioned. In other words, accumulations play a part in the arising of every mental state. Though every single citta is influenced by accumulations, we can see that there are certain cittas where conditioning by accumulations plays a critical role: - Sense-door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta process and "decides" that a certain rupa will become the object of a citta process. Each of the senses is constantly bombarded with information; it is accumulations that "decide" which data will be processed. - Determining / mind door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta process and "decides" which type of javana (kamma producing) cittas will follow. Accumulations "decide" if our thoughts will be kusala or akusala. - Javana: these cittas create kamma. The weightiness of the kamma produced depends on the strength of the volition (cetana). It is accumulations that "decide" how strong the cetana will be and therefore the weightiness of the resulting kamma. - Jhana: The arising of the jhana citta depend on accumulations. Accumulations "decide" when we should enter jhana. - Path: The arising of the supramundane cittas depend on accumulations. Accumulations "decide" when we are ready to become a Sotapanna (or higher). The popular saying that "people are creatures of habit" is absolutely true. If we feel drawn to the Dhamma, it is probably because we studied the Dhamma in a past life and have accumulations to study the Dhamma in this life as well. If we are attracted to a person, it is probably because we have been associated with them in a past life (Yasodhara was the wife of the Buddha in a previous existence). If we have a "talent" in music or art, it is probably because of experience in past lives. If we have an affinity towards a type of food or practice, it is probably linked to past lives. There are hundreds of examples in the Suttas and commentaries where the character or circumstances of a person is linked to accumulations from a previous life. The ability to perceive a person's accumulations is one of the unique abilities of a Buddha (Arahants and others do not have this ability). At the time of the Dipankara Buddha, Sumedha the Hermit made a solemn vow that he would become a future Buddha. This solemn vow influenced the Bodhisatta for countless lifetimes. Sariputta and Moggallana were chief disciples of the Buddha and Ananda was the attendant of the Buddha because they had made solemn vows in previous lives that this was the role that they wanted to play. Carita (Temperament) ==================== The term "carita" is found in the Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga and the Vimutthimagga (a precursor to the Visuddhimagga that focuses on meditation); it is often translated as "temperament", "personal nature", "propensity" or "character". The Abhidhammatthasangaha lists forty meditation subjects. To ensure progress, it is important that a meditation subject be selected to match the meditator's carita. It is possible for an individual to have a combination of caritas. - Raga-carita (lustful, greedy or passionate; propensity to desire and longing): 10 kinds of foulness, 32 parts of the body - Dosa-carita (hateful, angry; propensity to irritation and anger): 4 illimitables, 4 coloured kasinas - Moha-carita (deluded; propensity to delusion and superstition): Breathing - Saddha-carita (faithful; propensity to gullibility and snap judgments): 6 recollections of the Buddha - Buddhi-carita (intellectual, intelligent; propensity to curiosity and reasoning things through): 4 elements, loathsomeness of food, death, peace - Vitakka-carita (discursive, speculative, ruminating or pondering; propensity to excessive thought and worry): Breathing Other meditation subjects are suitable for all types of carita. People with raga-carita and saddha-carita are usually gentle, polite, clean, neat and tidy. They prefer sweet, aromatic and tender food. Greed does not give up on what is harmful while faith does not give up on what is beneficial. The one with raga-carita, the lustful one, has attachment to five sensual pleasures. He is wily, cunning, proud and greedy. The one with saddha-carita is truthful and honest. He is generous in nature and is liberal in charity. He is pious, reveres the Three Jewels and enjoys listening to Dhamma talks. People with dosa-carita and buddhi-carita are usually slipshod and untidy. They love sour, salty, bitter or pungent food. Hate is disaffected and does not hold onto its object in an unprofitable way, whereas intelligence is also disaffected and does not hold onto its object, albeit in a profitable way. A dosa dominant person is crude, untidy and undisciplined. He reacts violently to ugly things and unpleasant sounds. A buddhi dominant person is free from the evils of the dosa carita. He is ready to learn from the wise and is generally mindful. He is farsighted and fond of virtuous deeds. A moha-carita person is associated with ignorance, delusion and forgetfulness. He is usually perplexed and confused. He cannot distinguish between right and wrong, good and bad. He is incapable of making his own judgments, so he follows the opinion of others in denouncing or praising someone. Since he is devoid of sati and panna (wisdom) he wastes his time by being lazy, indolent and skeptical. He is the victim of sloth and torpor. Delusion vacillates due to superficiality while pondering vacillates due to conjecturing. Like moha-carita, the vitakka-carita person also lives in the way of uncertainty and skepticism. He is indolent and incapable of doing moral deeds. He indulges in useless babble, speculation and imagination, so he becomes a useless person, squandering his time. Application in Daily Life ========================= Though it is impossible for anyone but a Buddha to understand the details of Vasana and Carita, an appreciation of how they operate can help us in our daily life. We should look for opportunities to perform wholesome deeds. This searching for and planning a wholesome deed is, in itself, a wholesome deed. We should ensure that all wholesome deeds are done with strong volition, mindfulness and clear intention. We should review and rejoice in wholesome deeds performed and share the merits of our actions. Each of these activities creates good kamma and good accumulations; a condition to support the performing of more good deeds in the future. When there is an unwholesome state of mind, we should note it with mindfulness. Seeing an unwholesome state of mind for what it is constitutes a wholesome action. Mindfulness arrests the process of mental proliferation (papanca); the multiplication of unwholesome states of mind. Practicing mindfulness on an unwholesome state of mind weakens the power of the accumulation that conditioned the unwholesome state. We should understand the potential power of a solemn vow. To increase the potency of the vow, it should be made when the mind is clear and not troubled by restlessness. Finally, by understanding our own carita, we can select appropriate meditation objects. A person with an incorrect meditation object will find spiritual progress difficult. There are cases where Sariputta approach the Buddha for advice when one of Sariputta's students was not progressing; in these cases the Buddha would recommend a different meditation object for the student. Metta, Rob M :-) 26796 From: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 5:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 37 Hi Nina, The way I read this, the gist of the commentary (note 14) is that the eye arises because of kamma that produces all the senses or because of kamma that produces just the eye. The kamma that produces the eye is the desire to see and the kamma that produces all the senses _incorporates_ the desire to see. Is that your interpretation of this note? Also, does this mean we get whatever we desire? Larry --------------------- "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 37. 1. Herein, the eye's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of visible data; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to see.(14) Its function is to pick up [an object](15) among visible data. It is manifested as the footing of eye-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to see. ------------------ 14. 'Here the first-mentioned characteristic of the eye is described according to the kamma that produces a selfhood, and is common to all of it, and this without touching on differentiation is the cause. The second is according to the specialized kamma generated thus, 'Let my eye be thus'. This is what they say. But it can be taken that the first-mentioned characteristic is stated as sensitivity's interest in lighting up its own objective fields, the five senses' state of sensitivity being taken as a generality; and that the second is stated as the seeing that is due to the particular division of its own cause, the sensitivities' cause as the state of kamma being taken as a generality or as a unity. The same method applies to the ear and so on. 'Here it may be asked, "Is the arising of the faculties of the eye, etc., due to kamma that is one or to kamma that is different?" Now the ancients say, "In both ways". Herein, firstly, in the case of the arising of an eye, etc., due to kamma that is different there is nothing to be explained since the cause is divided up. But when their arising is due to kamma that is one, how does there come to be differentiation among them? It is due to dividedness in the cause too. For it is craving, in the form of longing for this or that kind of becoming that, itself having specific forms owing to hankering after the sense-bases included in some kind of becoming or other, contrives, acting as decisive-support, the specific divisions in the kamma that generates such a kind of becoming. As soon as the kamma has acquired the differentiation induced by that [hankering] it generates that effort consisting in appropriate ability a multiple fruit with differentiated essences, as though it had itself taken on a multiple form. And the ability here need not be understood as anything other than the able state; for it is simply the effort of producing fruit that is differentiated by the differentiation due to the differentiation in its cause. And the fact of this differentiating effort on the part of kamma that is one being the cause of the multiple faculties will be dealt with below as to logic and texts (note 21). Besides, it is told how one kind of consciousness only is the cause of the generation of the ripe, the unripe, the husked, and the unhusked fruit. But what is the use of logical thinking? For the eye, etc., are the fruit of kamma; and kamma-result is exclusively the province of a Buddha's knowledge' (Pm. 444). 15. Aavi~njana--'picking-up': see "aavijjhati" in P.T.S. Dict. 26797 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 6:17pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 44-48 for comment Unwholesome Cetasikas Slide Contents ============== In all bad cittas * Delusion / Ignorance / Dullness - Shamelessness / No Conscience - Recklessness / Lack of Moral Dread - Restlessness / Distraction / Wavering In some bad cittas * Greed / Attachment / Sensuous Desire - Wrong View / Evil Opinion - Conceit / Pride * Aversion / Hatred / Anger - Envy / Jealousy - Selfishness / Avarice / Stinginess - Remorse / Worry / Regret / Brooding - Sloth - Torpor - Doubt * 3 Evil Roots Speaker Notes ============= This is the list of the fourteen unwholesome mental factors. The first four arise in all unwholesome states and the remaining ten only arise in some unwholesome states. Unwholesome Cetasikas in Daily Life Slide Contents ============== What happens to us (Result of Past Kamma) -> Like --> Lobha (Bad Kamma) -> Indifference --> Moha (Bad Kamma) -> Dislike --> Dosa (Bad Kamma) -> Seeing things as they truly are (wise attention) Kusala (Good Kamma) In reality, "choice" is conditioned by accumulations (habits). "Free Will" is one kind of bridge to one level of understanding. On the Path, when you reach each such level, you leave each bridge behind. But you can't leave your bridge behind until you are beyond it. Speaker Notes ============= There is a natural reaction to what happens to us. If we like it, mind states rooted in attachment (lobha-mula) arise. If we dislike it, mind states rooted in aversion (dosa-mula) arise. If we ignore it, mind states rooted in delusion (moha-mula) arise. Liking, disliking and ignoring all give rise to bad kamma. To get good kamma, we must see things as they truly are. This is called wise attention – Yoniso Maniskara in Pali. For example, when we practice dana, there is no lobha, no dosa, no moha – this creates good kamma. It is clear that there are four options instantly arising from what happens to us: (Like / Dislike / Indifference / Wise Attention). There is no "self" pushing for any of these options. The arising of one of these options will arise naturally from our habits. This is a very important point. If every morning we get up and practice a short sitting doing metta meditation, then after a while, metta will develop into a habit. With this as a foundation, our mind will naturally react with metta. This brings up the issue of "free will" in Buddhism. Since the reaction to what happens to us is conditioned by our habits, there is no "free will" in play. This is a difficult concept for some people to accept. However we must consider the following: - If there is no "self", what is it that exercises this "free will"? - Is there "free will" involved in the arising of confusion or restlessness? - Knowing how damaging anger can be, why would anybody freely choose for anger to arise? "Free Will" is a concept that can be useful as we begin on the path. However, at some point along the path, we must give it up. In the Simile of the Snake Sutta (Mn 22), the Buddha said, "… my Teaching is comparable to a raft for the purpose of crossing over and not for getting hold of." 26798 From: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 6:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon (1): "You ask what is known/experienced when a citta (i.e., the immediately fallen away citta, 'citta A') becomes the object of the succeeding citta ('citta B'). I think the answer would depend on the level of panna that accompanies citta B but, as I understand it, there can be no question of citta B experiencing both citta A and the object of citta A at the same moment." Jon (2): "When you say 'consciousness itself is never in need of tranquilizing', I think you refer to consciousness (citta) per se as opposed to [consciousness and] its accompanying mental factors (cetasikas). But since there is never any consciousness without mental factors, this distinction doesn't really have any bearing here, I think." Hi Jon, When consciousness is the object of consciousness is the object consciousness with or without accompanying cetasikas? It apparently is without an object. Also, I know in the Satipatthana Sutta consciousness of consciousness is _with cetasikas_ but could there be mindfulness of consciousness in consciousness the same way there is mindfulness of feeling in feeling? Feeling is, in some way, an "exclusive" object of mindfulness even though it always arises with other cetasikas. Why not the same for consciousness? As to tranquility-of-consciousness cetasika, I was trying to differentiate it from tranquility-of-the-mental-body cetasika. I think this line of thought has become hopelessly confused, so let's let it go for now. Larry 26799 From: bodhi2500 Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 6:37pm Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi All Rob Moult wrote: > Carita (Temperament) > ==================== To ensure progress, it is important > that a meditation subject be selected to match the meditator's > carita. It is possible for an individual to have a combination of > caritas. snip> > - Moha-carita (deluded; propensity to delusion and superstition): > Breathing snip> > A moha-carita person is associated with ignorance, delusion and > forgetfulness. He is usually perplexed and confused. He cannot > distinguish between right and wrong, good and bad. He is incapable > of making his own judgments, so he follows the opinion of others in > denouncing or praising someone. Since he is devoid of sati and panna > (wisdom) he wastes his time by being lazy, indolent and skeptical. > He is the victim of sloth and torpor. Delusion vacillates due to > superficiality while pondering vacillates due to conjecturing. Like > moha-carita, the vitakka-carita person also lives in the way of > uncertainty and skepticism. He is indolent and incapable of doing > moral deeds. He indulges in useless babble, speculation and > imagination, so he becomes a useless person, squandering his time. > Metta, > Rob M :-) It is said, "Anapanasati is difficult,difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas,paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home" and "The most difficult of the 40 meditation subjects" and that anapanasati is for those with "great accumulations of panna and other parami". Why then is anapanasati recommended for a "Moha carita person"? What is the definition of "Buddhas sons"? Thankyou Steve 26800 From: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 2:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi, Larry & Jon - In a message dated 11/9/03 10:00:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Jon (1): "You ask what is known/experienced when a citta (i.e., the > immediately fallen away citta, 'citta A') becomes the object of the > succeeding citta ('citta B'). > I think the answer would depend on the level of panna that accompanies > citta B but, as I understand it, there can be no question of citta B > experiencing both citta A and the object of citta A at the same moment." > > Jon (2): "When you say 'consciousness itself is never in need of > tranquilizing', I think you refer to consciousness (citta) per se as > opposed to [consciousness and] its accompanying mental factors > (cetasikas). But since there is never any consciousness without mental > factors, this distinction doesn't really have any bearing here, I > think." > > Hi Jon, > > When consciousness is the object of consciousness is the object > consciousness with or without accompanying cetasikas? It apparently is > without an object. Also, I know in the Satipatthana Sutta consciousness > of consciousness is _with cetasikas_ but could there be mindfulness of > consciousness in consciousness the same way there is mindfulness of > feeling in feeling? Feeling is, in some way, an "exclusive" object of > mindfulness even though it always arises with other cetasikas. Why not > the same for consciousness? > > As to tranquility-of-consciousness cetasika, I was trying to > differentiate it from tranquility-of-the-mental-body cetasika. I think > this line of thought has become hopelessly confused, so let's let it go > for now. > > Larry > ============================ What in the world could one be aware of when one is aware of a consciousness but not of the object of that consciousness? If that occurred, then being aware of one consciousness would be no different from being aware of another. Being aware of a preceding consciousness could be nothing other than remembering it. And what is remembered probably occurs in bits and pieces over a period of time, and then is mentally summed up by a single mindstate. We may be aware *that* we were just aware of something, and then be aware of what that something was, and then recall how we felt during that moment of consciousness, for example. And then this is all put together as a unitary "memory", a mental construct somewhat similar to a concept. Any awareness of a consciousness must proceed in this fashion, and must be a matter of remembering. The previous consciousness, its object, and all its features and associated functions no longer exist, and, so, can only be remembered, and a memory is almost never a perfect replica - in fact, it can't be inasmuch as we always know the difference between a memory and the original. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26801 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 8:38pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 41-43 for comment Hi RobM How does this feeling --> perception --> thinks about, reconcile with dependent origination? Kind rgds Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Ethically Variable Cetasikas in Daily Life > > Slide Contents > ============== > > Citta + Eye + Form -> Contact > > Contact -> Feeling > > Feeling -> Perception (Naming) > > Perception (Naming) -> Thinks About (Memory) > > Thanks About (Memory) -> Mental Proliferation > > > > > Small circle (nucleus) = Ultimate Reality > > Big Circle (surrounding small circle) = What we think is real > > Area between small circle and big circle = Mental Proliferation > > > > > Quotation from Honeyball Sutta (Mn18) > > Naturally arising phenomena > --------------------------- > Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The > meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there > is feeling. > > One's reaction to naturally arising phenomena > --------------------------------------------- > What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one > thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. > > Impact of one's reaction > ------------------------ > With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions > and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect > to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye. > > > 26802 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:02pm Subject: Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Victor, I was wondering how you define Right Concentration? I would like to invite you to read this sutta about concentration - SN xxxV.89 Samadhi Sutta. I would also like to introduce to this sutta which also mentio about concentration. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha1/06- mahali-e.htm. My feel is that your definition of concentration is not right concentration as mentioned in the Eightfold path . If you look at Ripleys, you find concentration can do wondering acts but not enlightement. Just like in Buddha times, there are pple who practise concentration but they do not become enlighted like Buddha. My personal opinion is that concentration is a insight mediation as mention in Samadhi Sutta and not otherwise. Kind regards Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > Thanks for pointing me to the place we left off, and apologies for > the delay in replying. > > You suggest starting again. I think that's a good idea ;-)). I too > have a suggestion. I think we should keep the discussion to > manageable-sized chunks. So please don't think I'm avoiding any of > your points or sutta quotes if I don't cover everything in a single > post ;-)) > > You start by asking the question, 'Why did the Buddha teach right > concentration/samma samadhi?' I think the short answer is that the > Buddha taught everything that needs to be known about the path > leading to enlightenment. One of the most important of these is the > 8 factors of which the Noble Eightfold Path is comprised. Samma > samadhi is 1 of these. > > To my understanding, these path factors are the factors that > accompany a moment of path consciousness. They are not factors to be > developed separately and individually and that somehow coalesce when > they have reached a certain degree. > > I wont cite from the commentaries here, since I understand that you > don't accept the commentarial material. Instead I'll ask whether in > your view what I have just said is inconsistent with anything found > in the suttas. > > Jon > 26803 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:06pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 41-43 for comment Hi Ken O, Excellent question! "Feeling --> Perception --> Thinks About" is how the mind operates and dependent origination is how we are bound to samsara. As a quick reminder, the relevant portion of dependent origination is: Feeling --> Craving --> Clinging --> Becoming Let us consider the difference between an Arahant and a non-Arahant. Both will have feeling (feeling arises with every citta). Both will have perception (Arahants are able to name things). The way in which "thinks about" works is diffent in an Arahant and a non- Arahant. A non-Arahant will have "thinking about" driven by clinging (lobha) and this is what binds him/her to samsara. An Arahant does their "thinking about" using functional (kiriya) cittas that do not create kamma. Hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > How does this feeling --> perception --> thinks about, reconcile > with dependent origination? > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > Ethically Variable Cetasikas in Daily Life > > > > Slide Contents > > ============== > > > > Citta + Eye + Form -> Contact > > > > Contact -> Feeling > > > > Feeling -> Perception (Naming) > > > > Perception (Naming) -> Thinks About (Memory) > > > > Thanks About (Memory) -> Mental Proliferation > > > > > > > > > > Small circle (nucleus) = Ultimate Reality > > > > Big Circle (surrounding small circle) = What we think is real > > > > Area between small circle and big circle = Mental Proliferation > > > > > > > > > > Quotation from Honeyball Sutta (Mn18) > > > > Naturally arising phenomena > > --------------------------- > > Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The > > meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there > > is feeling. > > > > One's reaction to naturally arising phenomena > > --------------------------------------------- > > What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one > > thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally > proliferates. > > > > Impact of one's reaction > > ------------------------ > > With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions > > and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect > > to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye. > > > > > > 26804 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:12pm Subject: FW: greeting from Icaro! Dear all, I wrote to Icaro, being worried about the dangers he has to face. ---------- Van: icaro franca Datum: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 04:14:25 -0800 (PST) Aan: nina van gorkom Onderwerp: Re: greeting Dear Nina: I am really very busy at the Air Base, but my mind labors weren't in vain: my grades and scores are still O.K....but the main part of the Boot Camp (The so called Boot Camp itself!) will begin next week!!!! My next Dhamma Diary Chapter will verse about Conventional Truths and Ultimate Truths!!!!! Thanks for your kind and warm regards, Nina! (... and missing so much all people at the Dhamma Study Group, mainly you, Mike, Sarah, Jon and Connie!!!!!!) These > trainings are so dangerous. Or are you just busy > with theory? Fortunately not so much, Nina... but I haven't got any time for so much replies!!!! mettaya and kisses for all dsg!!! Icaro 26805 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - Hi Sarah and Thomas, op 09-11-2003 01:37 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: Th: We are together, and then we have to part again, this is not sad at all. >> It's just natural like the seasons. > .... S: I'm reflecting on your useful words again. It's true that all the sadness > is due to ignorance and clinging only. When a friend lost her husband in > difficult circumstances, she was reminded by K.Sujin to think of him as > being like a wind or breeze passing by. So many winds and seasons pass by > naturally. She found it very helpful at the time, I remember. It's not > easy for me to even think about wisely. N: I had the same reaction when reading the reminder above. Not easy at all. I remember about the wind, and how I discussed it with Sarah. Th: What is sad is a human lifetime not >> used to do good, and to make spiritual progress. > ... S: Another good reminder to make good use of this short life that may end at > any time. In the ultimate sense, it's just as short as this moment. N: Here is the solution. Because thinking is only thinking, it will not help. Developing understanding of this moment will gradually help. Nina. 26806 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - Hi Nori, --- norakat147 wrote: > > We are together, and then we have to part again, this is not sad at > all. It's just natural like the seasons. What is sad is a human > lifetime not used to do good, and to make spiritual progress. > > > > Gassho, > > Thomas > > > --- > > I couldn't agree more, and I have had this attitude even before > encountering Dhamma. > > I just wish the girlfriends I meet feel likewise. They are not really > bad people but they could get possesive, attached/clingy and > dependent. ..... ;-) In the end, we can only know our own mental states and begin to understand the attachment we have at this moment. What about the attachment when we encourage others to like us and be with us and then the attachment to the parting seasons when the others are attaching?? Is there any metta and karuna for the poor 'clingy' girlfriends, or just wishing for what we would like and clinging to ourselves at these times? Metta, Sarah ====== 26807 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Ken, Do you mean Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99 Samadhi Sutta Concentration http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-099.html ? What is right concentration? "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > I was wondering how you define Right Concentration? I would like to > invite you to read this sutta about concentration - SN xxxV.89 > Samadhi Sutta. I would also like to introduce to this sutta which > also mentio about concentration. > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha1/06- > mahali-e.htm. > > My feel is that your definition of concentration is not right > concentration as mentioned in the Eightfold path . If you look at > Ripleys, you find concentration can do wondering acts but not > enlightement. Just like in Buddha times, there are pple who > practise concentration but they do not become enlighted like Buddha. > > My personal opinion is that concentration is a insight mediation as > mention in Samadhi Sutta and not otherwise. > > > > Kind regards > Ken O 26808 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] English discussions Hi Sukin (& Christine), --- Sukin wrote: > > So after considering the matter, K. Sujin decided that it would be > better to > limit > the service to Thai discussions only. So now the regular English > discussions > is also > back to the afternoon. .... Makes good sense -better to get this well- established. Thx for keeping us informed. Metta, Sarah ====== 26809 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - Hi Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > S: Another good reminder to make good use of this short life that may > end at > > any time. In the ultimate sense, it's just as short as this moment. > N: Here is the solution. Because thinking is only thinking, it will not > help. Developing understanding of this moment will gradually help. > Nina. .... Another good reminder. Also when the Abhidhamma or other teachings don't make sense, it'll depend on conditions whether topics are put aside (there may be intentions to do this, but that doesn't mean it'll happen - no control;-)). Most useful is developing awareness and understanding of the realities at the time of thinking, doubt, confusion and so on. Who wants to know or get the solution or have it all worked out nicely? Only 'Self' again and more whispering lobha. Thank you also for all the helpful comments on ignorance relating to the Milinda qu. I know at least a couple of people have asked about this passage before and found it difficult to accept that misdeeds performed with more ignorance are more serious than with knowledge of the misdeed being performed. I hope this has helped clarify for them as well. Perhaps they can comment if not. Metta and appreciation, Sarah ====== 26810 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:53pm Subject: Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Victor > > "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- > quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) > qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure> born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation> With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & > remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, > unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- > internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in > equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of > pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the > Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable > abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the > earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains > in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither > pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." Thanks for the quote. If you look at the basis for 1st jhana, withdraw from unskilful qualities - does this implies stillness of thoughts or calm as the main crux for entering it. In my personal opinion, one without the knowledge of stress/suffering or insight will not be able to withdraw from unskillful qualities. The statement is even more impt bc subsequently before entering the second jhana -- there is still a need to be withdraw from such qualities. And together with stilling of thoughts then second jhana can be achievable where the basis of calmness is imply. Subsquently, even more impt are the good mental qualities like mindfullness etc, hence to me this implies that without insight, there is no third jhana or fourth jhana. Kind regards Ken O 26811 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More Myanmar stories;-) Hi Suan, --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > Dear Sarah > > Thank you for your kind sharing of experiences in Myanmar during a > brief visit there. > > I studied Pali at the Mandalay University briefly before transfer to > a university in Yangon. The student hall I stayed was not very far > from the eastern wall of the Mandalay Palace. So it is called Nan > Shaet Hall (Nan = Palace, Shaet = East). And it is also within a > walking distance of about one hour or so away from Manadalay Hill. So > in the evenings, I usually organized walks with other students to > visit Mandalay Hill, Kuthodaw (Kusala Royal), Historical Monasteries > in the suburbs between Nan Shaet Hall and Mandalay Hill. As those > places are historical places and buildings, I had a feeling of being > relocated in a different time and place. .... Having just been to these places, it's easy to understand. We would have liked more time to just wander around like this. What a wonderful place to study and with such a rich tradition. It's now an easy flight to Pagan (about 30 mins only). Not like the old days when friends would tell me about their long jeep trips. <...> > Yes, study of Abhidhamma, commentaries, and subcommentaries, study of > Pali saddaa texts the old way, writing of new works and new Nissaya > texts on Pali Tipi.taka will remain intact through the thriving > learning centres in each region of Myanmar such as Mandalay > Monasteries, Sagai Monasteries, Pakhukkuu Monasteries, Pyi > Monasteries, Yangon Monasteries, Pegu Monasteries, Myaungmya > Monasteries, Mawlamyaing Monasteries and the like. .... Again, a few of the names are now familiar, like Pegu where we spent most of one day. In U Narada's preface to 'Guide to conditional Relations' he gives some interesting comments about 'Why Abhidhamma thrives in Burma'. this relates to the 'Akauks' or analytical states which he says are only known in burma and are compilations based on the states given in the Comy and Subcomy texts. It's so helpful that more of these texts and charts (like those used in Abhidamattha Sangaha) are being made available slowly. I hope we have access to the Yamaka and commentaries to this and other texts soon. <....> By the way, U Pe Maung Tin used Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on > A.t.thasaalinii and Visuddhimaggo (Pyi in Middle Myanmar) when he > translated them as "The Expositor" and "The Path Of Purity". I have > Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts On A.t.thasaalinii in addition to > Mahagandhayon Sayadaw's modern Nissaya texts. Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya > texts are called "Old Nissaya Texts". I would like to know what it > feels like having Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on Visuddhimaggo. > > Nissaya texts are study aids for students of Pali and convenient > reference works for Pali scholars. .... For a long time, U Pe Maung Tin's transl of the A.t.thasaalinii was about the most useful book I possessed. It contains a wealth of helpful detail. In his preface, I see he says he based the translation on two Burmese texts and "I derived much help from the two Burmese translations of the A.t.thasaalinii - namely the Old Nissaya by Ariyaala'nkaara of the early part of the eighteenth century, and the New Nissaya by Pyii Sadaw of the middle of the nineteenth century". This is just as you said. Thanks for your interesting comments, Suan. I look forward to any more! With metta, Sarah ====== 26812 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] earth, water, fire, air Hi Larry & All, Well, I'll just comment on the first few lines;-) --- Larry wrote: > Hi all, > > I wonder if we can say earth, water, fire, and air are three energies > and one mass. .... We can say anything, but I don't think this is useful;-) 4 elements or rupas - not 'energies'. An 'energy' represents many rupas. ..... >The phenomenon we think of as air is actually a complex > manifestation of the 4 element group. .... Yes, what we think of as 'air' is a concept, representing a complex set of rupas. ..... >The same goes for the other > three. Since the appearance of movement is actually the regeneration > of a 4 element continuum in a slightly different location, perhaps we > could say air energy is regeneration energy with a tie to location, > which must have something to do with extension (earth?). ..... Movement occurs as a result of a complex number of namas and rupas. In the Satipatthana Sutta tika we read; "On account of the condition of processes making action of body and so forth and by reason of the condition of originating action of adverting, impulsion of either course of cognition, or lust of every process of the six doors gets known as a process which makes or is made of action." Many sense-door and mind-door processes are involved. We also read about the complex interaction of rupas, eg p74 (Soma's transl); "In raising up the foot A (paaduddhara.ne) two processes (dhaatuyo): extensions (pathavii) and cohesion (aapo), are low, weak (omattaa honti dubbalaa), and the other two processes: caloricity (tejo) and oscillation (vaayo) are high, (adhimitta honti balavatiyo);" etc. Many more details given. Then: "Who is the one that goes forward? Just no one. Could it be said: Whose going forward is there? No. Why? In the highest sense, what takes place is the going, the standing, the sitting down, and the lying down of the processes. The passage just mentioned is for dispelling the false idea of a self that goes forward which a confused blinded worldling is apt to possess ...." .... As Nina mentioned in another post, we need to know that rupas arise in a kalapa (group), but only one rupa can ever be the object of citta and awareness at any time. .... >When I touch > this table with my finger there is hardness (earth) .... Yes. ... >but there is also > a force behind that hardness, pushing, and a resistance by the table. .... This is thinking about a concept of a force etc, different from the hardness directly experienced through the body-sense. .... As James pointed out, wrong views and delusions only ever occur in the mind, but it is on account of the 5 khandhas, including rupas, that illusions of a self, permanence and satisfactoriness arise. As he also suggested, cutting off the senses does not eradicate wrong views. This is why experience of jhanas and even rebirth in arupa realms does not lead to the realisation of anatta. The only way to follow the eightfold path is to understand presently arising namas and rupas for what they are - conditioned elements with different characteristics. Nina’s presently posting the details of just the same set of primary and derived rupas which Rahula was instructed to understand in order to develop vipassana (insight) and lessen clinging to the idea of ‘body’ and ‘self’ and the perversions of perception with regard to perceiving the foul as beautiful, the unsatisfactory as satisfactory and so on. Nina wrote (18B): “Rahula had to develop understanding not only of materiality, ruupa, but also of mental phenomena, naama, of all five khandhas. When we take them all as a whole, there is the idea of a person. Hearing is naama, a citta that experiences sound, it is not the ruupa that is sound, it is no the ruupa that is earsense. Understanding this, not only by reflection, but by direct understanding of the characteristics of the elements as they appear one at a time must lead to detachment. Clinging to the idea of "I, mine" can decrease. As we read in the Mahaarahulovaadasutta: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi RobM (& Howard), --- robmoult wrote: > My mistake; the cause of kamma is javana cittas; boring, because you > already knew that :-). <..> > It is clear that Buddhist Logic only looks at direct conditions. > Indirect conditions (conditions of conditions) are not listed; > otherwise it would get too complicated. This is why eating meat is > not breaking the first precept. .... Think of the three rounds (va.t.ta)- kamma, kilesa, vipaka va.t.tas and the round of rebirth (sa’msaara). I think we read about direct and indirect conditions all the time. For example, we’ve been talking a lot about natural decisive support condition. For kamma to bring a result, it needs this condition to ‘assist’. Hence, akusala can be a condition for kusala and vice versa. An inherently desirable rupa experienced (result of kusala kamma) can be a condition for akusala and so on, whilst the tendency to such ‘responses’ has not been eradicated. Rob, we were discussing the value of understanding details about the desirable and undesirable rupas. Rahula was reminded not to be attached or have aversion to these different rupas, but understanding their characteristics as elements: Nina wrote: >Subco to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 22B Text Subcommentary: Someone who has completed the task is called ‘of such nature’, and he practises insight [vipassana]; and then, for what purpose was the nature of suchness spoken of? The explanation of the characteristic of (development) like the earth [pathavi] and so on has as purpose a happy course of insight [vipassana]. ``i.t.thaani.t.thesuu''tiaadi. Therefore he says, ‘with regard to the desirable and the undesirable’[i.t.tha ani.t.tha] and so on. as to the expression, after he has mastered them, this means, after he has thoroughly comprehended them, because of the opportunity that was given for a skilful course of action. ***** The desirable and undesirable characteristics of the rupas don’t change, but the insight and detachment from them are developed. As you said, it helps to understand this for the appreciation of anatta. I think the details about pakatupanissaya paccaya and other conditions show how anything can be a condition directly or indirectly. You had kind intentions to buy some CDs for DSG friends, but indirectly this was a condition for bumping into another car and some akusala vipaka. The other driver also experienced some unfortunate results, but these led to her receiving a disc. So many complex conditions at work. When we discussed the Sivaka sutta (SN), we read about indirect causes and results of kamma and how it’s wrong to attribute everything to this cause. We’ve also had discussions about what is ‘pakati’ or ‘bokati’(Thai) or ‘natural’ as in pakatupanissaya. We can see that what is ‘natural’ is different for all and changing all the time. Who can say what their ‘carita’ or character is when there’s so little awareness of present realities? Aren’t there all the ‘carita’ appearing in rapid succession? Rob, I hope you have a pleasant and useful meeting with K.Sujin. We’ll all look forward to your impressions and comments from the discussion. I’ve particularly appreciated some of your detailed posts recently, such as those to Howard & Connie(eg 26741, 26733, and 26731). I notice, however, that elsewhere you’re still ignoring my comments on the vipallasa -i.e perversion of sanna and citta at each unwholesome moment, inc. attachment to the desirable etc-;-)). Many thanks for all your great contributions, kind examples and encouragement to everyone here, Rob. I'm sure we all learn a lot from you. Metta, Sarah ====== 26814 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 0:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > > It is clear that Buddhist Logic only looks at direct conditions. > > Indirect conditions (conditions of conditions) are not listed; > > otherwise it would get too complicated. This is why eating meat is > > not breaking the first precept. > .... > Think of the three rounds (va.t.ta)- kamma, kilesa, vipaka va.t.tas and > the round of rebirth (sa'msaara). I think we read about direct and > indirect conditions all the time. ===== I'm not clear here. Where do we read about indirect conditions? How are the three rounds examples of indirect conditions? ===== > For example, we've been talking a lot > about natural decisive support condition. For kamma to bring a result, it > needs this condition to `assist'. ===== Natural decisive support condition has all cittas and their cetasikas as a possible conditioned state; including cetana (I touched on this in my recent essay on accumulations). I see this as a direct condition, not as an indirect condition. ===== > Hence, akusala can be a condition for > kusala and vice versa. An inherently desirable rupa experienced (result of > kusala kamma) can be a condition for akusala and so on, whilst the > tendency to such `responses' has not been eradicated. ===== Agreed, but this is still not indirect :-) ===== > > I think the details about pakatupanissaya paccaya and other conditions > show how anything can be a condition directly or indirectly. You had kind > intentions to buy some CDs for DSG friends, but indirectly this was a > condition for bumping into another car and some akusala vipaka. The other > driver also experienced some unfortunate results, but these led to her > receiving a disc. So many complex conditions at work. When we discussed > the Sivaka sutta (SN), we read about indirect causes and results of kamma > and how it's wrong to attribute everything to this cause. ===== I see an interplay between conditions and accumulations all the time; conditions are "momentary" whereas accumulations are "sustained". ===== > We've also had > discussions about what is `pakati' or `bokati'(Thai) or `natural' as in > pakatupanissaya. We can see that what is `natural' is different for all > and changing all the time. Who can say what their `carita' or character is > when there's so little awareness of present realities? Aren't there all > the `carita' appearing in rapid succession? ===== I see carita as an accumulation; if they were not sustained, how could the Buddha recommend a meditation object for Sariputta's student? Individual realities at each moment are very difficult to percieve, but at least a general picture of one's own tendencies and habits is pretty easy to know. ===== > Rob, I hope you have a pleasant and useful meeting with K.Sujin. We'll all > look forward to your impressions and comments from the discussion. > I notice, however, that elsewhere you're still ignoring my comments on the > vipallasa -i.e perversion of sanna and citta at each unwholesome moment, > inc. attachment to the desirable etc-;-)). ===== Perversions are on my "to do list" :-) I am going to use this opportunity of meeting K. Sujin to ask her about them. Metta, Rob M :-) 26815 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Connie, I’m enjoying this 3-way discussion, even though I'm in danger of getting out of my depth;-). Just a few more comments to add to yours and RobM’s: --- connie wrote: > > I see we're encroaching on another thread here when we start getting > into the desireability of rupa objects. [S: For example, in decisive > support of object, a desirable object is a strong condition for cittas > and cetasikas which are inclined towards it. So, for example, inherently > desirable rupas, such as particular tastes, may be a 'decisive support > object' for attachment, but only if attachment is accumulated to want > such tastes]. The inherent 'desire' of desirability has to be in the > accumulations I think, but then what about 'the beautiful'? .... I think as Rob, Jon and others have pointed out, we need to clearly distinguish between the characteristics of rupas and attachment which is accumulated as you say. As the extract from the Maharahulavada sutta comy clearly points out, the problem is not in the rupas;-) We take the desirable for being beautiful, permanent and so on, but in fact even the most desirable objects(i.e rupas) are still foul and impermanent and so on, even though they are experienced by kusala kamma. .... > Fire > element is fire element and it's in every kalapa, so what, other than > (perverse) accumulations, makes it more desireable in a fresh flower > than a crumbled leaf when all conditioned things are dukkha? .... I’m not sure if I’m answering your qu (or exactly following it), but remember that though rupas arise together in a kalapa, only one characteristic appears, depending on kamma and accumulations: As Nina just wrote: >N: Visible object and sound do not arise alone, they need the four primary rupas to accompany them as a foundation. However, only one characteristic is experienced at a time. When sound is experienced the accompanying primaries are not experienced at the same time. Sound can be soft or loud, and sometimes we say, it hurts our ears. Then it is not sound that is experienced, but the accompanying eart element (solidity)which hits bodysense in the ear. Sound can break a building, then it is the accompanying earth element that does so.< Does this answer the qu? If not, please explain a little more. .... >Left on my > own, I'd think only the three sobhana hetu/cetasika could be inherently > desireable... not of course, to the point of clinging. The fire on our > heads is only desireable insofar as it conditions wise/proper attention. > Someone at last night's meditation group said she didn't like being > motivated by fear/hell. .... Again, I’m not sure if I’m following you. Remember that attachment or desire can cling to any nama, rupa or concept except the (reality of) nibbana and lokuttara states. .... > I've been reading Conditions and have skipped straight to ch. XVII in > The Path of Purification (and a lot of skipping around in that), but > it's all pretty much parrot or question to me at this point. Not just > the Pali... I don't normally use words like 'cogent reason', but as > Buddhaghosa says at the end of the chapter... Let a wise man with > mindfulness / So practice that he may begin / To find a footing in the > deeps / Of the Dependent Origin. And they're set out as 24 conditions, > but sometimes, to paraphrase, they're different in letter, but the same > in meaning or only in stressing a particular aspect... as with the > cogency/decisive force (mental gravity, Rob?) .... Cogent force - strong or compelling condition, powerful inducement. Now, Connie, don’t encourage Rob with ‘gravity’ here or we’ll get even more confused;-) Reading and considering the Dhamma now can be a cogent force or condition for awareness to arise, depending on many other factors of course. This moment of consciousness has to be a ‘cogent’ condition for the next to arise. No other kind of consciousness could follow. ..... > of the three decisive > supports/upanissaya. Thus, proximate decisive support approximates > proximity, which is the same as contiguity. But only multiple fruits > from multiple causes, no singularities except as teaching devices, so I > think whatever is pakatupanissaya has to be aahaara as well and I don't > know what all else, but "it is unmixed with object and proximity" (XVII > 84). .... One day we may get to this part of Vism, ch XV11, which will be helpful. Pakatupanissaya is much wider than aahara as I understand. The dhammas included in aahara are included in pakatupanissaya but the conditions act in different ways. As the quote I gave from U Narada’s intro to the Patthana showed, the conditioning ‘force’ is ‘inherent’ in the conditioning dhamma and many such forces can be present as characteristics of those dhammas. In the case of aahaara paccaya (nutriment condition), the conditioning dhamma maintains the conditioned dhamma. To give Howard’s cetasika of the month, phassa (contact), as an example: Phassa is both a decisive support for citta to experience its object at each moment and also a mental nutriment for this contact. It must also act as a condition in many other ways too, such as by conascent condition for other cetasikas and the citta, etc, etc. We don’t have to know and work out or understand all these conditions, but considering a little helps break down any idea of self or free-will or choice. .... > I'm more likely to be behind the camera than in front of it, Sarah, and > that rarely, but we'll see. .... That sounds like a half-promise, Connie;-) Perhaps we could ask Mike to do a quick sketch;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Please let me know where I’ve misinterpreted your comments. I’ll also be glad of any corrections by you or anyone. ====== 26816 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi RobM, This’ll be a quick one because my limb injuries need some exercise (Gentle ‘bopping’ to the Rolling Stones was a positive condition, however;-)) .... --- robmoult wrote: > > .... > I'm not clear here. Where do we read about indirect conditions? How > are the three rounds examples of indirect conditions? .... You and Howard were discussing about how accumulations lead to kamma in the javana process. I’m suggesting that in addition we can say that vipaka cittas and rupas experienced through the sense doors are indirect conditions for that kamma, because it is on account of these experiences that the accumulated tendencies lead to kamma patha, results and so the rounds go on. So while it’s perfectly correct to say as H. quoted from the dictionary: “Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality itself karma”, I’m suggesting that there are other conditions at work. If I’ve butted in and not followed your discussion properly, just ignore;-) ..... > Natural decisive support condition has all cittas and their > cetasikas as a possible conditioned state; including cetana (I > touched on this in my recent essay on accumulations). I see this as > a direct condition, not as an indirect condition. .... OK. Perhaps I mistook ‘indirect’ to refer to ‘not the main’ condition here. My mistake. ... > I see an interplay between conditions and accumulations all the > time; conditions are "momentary" whereas accumulations > are "sustained". > > ===== I agree about the interplay. I’m not sure about the ‘sustained’ or what it means. When I referred to the Sivaka sutta as an example of the use of ‘indirect’ conditions in the texts, I was thinking of this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13094 ***** Thus seated, he said: "There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, what does the revered Gotama say about this?" "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans." Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behaviour... by injuries... by the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. ****** Bile, climate and so on are concepts representing realities which condition feelings. In this sense, I think of them as ‘indirect’. Let me drop the word ‘indirect’ which can lead to misunderstandings and give this as an example in the suttas of pakatupanissaya paccaya, kamma and other conditions working together in complex ways to condition feelings and other conditioned/accumulated states at this moment. Eating meat is not breaking any precept. However,as a result of eating meat, attachment to the taste could be a condition to kill, just as the rupas experienced by the change of climate may be a condition to get sick or anything. I don’t think we have any disagreement, Rob, but I’m sure the Buddha’s wisdom could trace conditions back for aeons and conditions of conditions of conditions......direct or indirect. No need to speculate. ..... > I see carita as an accumulation; if they were not sustained, how > could the Buddha recommend a meditation object for Sariputta's > student? .... Back to the Buddha’s omniscience which knew everything including the changing or predominant cittas that were and would be arising in future, the results of actions and so forth. Still only momentary. ..... >Individual realities at each moment are very difficult to > percieve, but at least a general picture of one's own tendencies and > habits is pretty easy to know. .... Only the Buddha and his chief disciples could select an appropriate object and even then, sometimes the Buddha had to intervene, as in the case of Rahula. I used to think I was pretty perceptive about my own and other tendencies (after all, I was trained as a psychologist;-)). The more I study the Dhamma, the more I realise that these ‘perceptions’ are all just (unhelpful) stories and accumulated thinking which has nothing to do with awareness of realities at this moment. Now I think there’s really little if any correlation between our perceived ‘general picture’ and the direct understanding of tendencies and carita. For a start, usually the ‘general picture’ is an idea of a self and selves, not an understanding of lobha at this instant which cannot be seen from the outside. The Dhamma, esp. the Abhidhamma is so very precise. .... > Perversions are on my "to do list" :-) I am going to use this > opportunity of meeting K. Sujin to ask her about them. ..... ;-) You might like to add carita, meditation objects and accumulations..... oh and kamma and kamma patha perhaps. Discussions with K.Sujin never go according to plan, I find. You’ll have your Qs and paper, but she’ll soon interrupt (very sweetly) and start asking you her Qs;-) Look f/w to your report as I said. Sorry, if I’ve just confused on this thread - I must take a break! Metta, Sarah p.s Sukin, I’m thinking of Erik again. If you have a chance, pls try calling him again. Do you think he might like to join? Pls tell him I tried calling when we were in Bkk. ============= 26817 From: Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi, Ken (and Victor) - In a message dated 11/10/03 1:01:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes to Victor: > Thanks for the quote. If you look at the basis for 1st jhana, > withdraw from unskilful qualities - does this implies stillness of > thoughts or calm as the main crux for entering it. In my personal > opinion, one without the knowledge of stress/suffering or insight > will not be able to withdraw from unskillful qualities. The > statement is even more impt bc subsequently before entering the > second jhana -- there is still a need to be withdraw from such > qualities. And together with stilling of thoughts then second jhana > can be achievable where the basis of calmness is imply. > > Subsquently, even more impt are the good mental qualities like > mindfullness etc, hence to me this implies that without insight, > there is no third jhana or fourth jhana. > > =========================== Sati, though not given as a jhana factor, certainly takes the lead in developing of concentration. Actually, sati and samadhi are mutually supportive. As far as wisdom is concerned, well, of course, some wisdom must be in effect at all stages of working to achieve any goal. But more than insight being a requirement of jhana, it is a development of jhana (along with the investigation of dhammas). Concentration is a condition for the development of wisdom, a sine qua non for it. But, of course, it is not a sufficient condition for it. But, again, not only is concentration a condition for insight, but insight is a condition for the further cultivation of jhanas. In this, I see your statement as correct. As wisdom develops during the course of jhana cultivation (along with energetic investigation of dhammas), it includes the realization of the inadequacy of lesser jhanas, leading one to let go and move on to more and more subtle jhanas, and eventually there arises the insight of the inadequacy of all jhanas, and, in fact, of all conditioned states. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26818 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:44am Subject: Nissaya Text On Section 431 In Visuddhimaggo: To Nina Dear Nina, Sarah, Robert K, Mike Niece, other Pali enthusiasts and all How are you? The following is the Pali passage that Nina provided. It is from Section 431 in Visuddhimaggo. 431. aya.m pana vitthaaro, ya.m taava vutta.m ``khandhaayatanadhaatuindriyasaccapa.ticcasamuppaadaadibhedaa dhammaa bhuumii''ti, ettha khandhaati pa~nca khandhaa ruupakkhandho vedanaakkhandho sa~n~naakkhandho sa"nkhaarakkhandho vi~n~naa.nakkhandhoti. The following is the Nissaya text I wrote. This may well be the first attempt of its kind. Nissaya Text 431. Aya.m - This (is) , pana – on the other hand, vitthaaro – an elaboration. Ya.m ettha – Where, vutta.m – it is said, taava – first, ti – that, dhammaa – the principles, bhedaa – that are such varieties as, (vaa - alternatively), bhedaa - dividable as, khandhaa – aggregates, aayatanaani – venues, dhaatuyo – elements, indriyaani – controls, saccaani – truths, pa.ticcasamuppaado – dependent origination, aadi – and the like, bhuumi – the filed, (paññaaya – of wisdom), khandhaati – aggregates are, pañca khandhaa – the five aggregates, ti – namely, ruupakkhandho – matter aggregate, vedanaakkhandho – feeling aggregate, saññakkhandho – memory aggregate, sa`nkhaarakkhandho – activation aggregate, viññaa.nakkhandho – and consciousness aggregate." Nina, please pay attention to how I connected "yam" and "ettha". Also to the additions in the brackets. You will also notice that the long compound "khandhaayatanadhaatuindriyasaccapa.ticcasamuppaadaadibhedaa" had to be parsed into the nouns in their correct case suffixes in the Nissaya text. A Nissaya writer is also responsible for supplying any sense-making Pali words or phrases. In case you might want to see the differences between a Nissaya text and a translation of a Pali passage, I also translated the above Section 431 of Visuddhimaggo. Translation 431. This is an elaboration. Where it is first said that the principles dividable as aggregates, venues, elements, controls, truths, dependent origination and the like are the field of wisdom, aggregates are the five aggregates, namely, matter aggregate, feeling aggregate, memory aggregate, activation aggregate, and consciousness aggregate. I discovered that it is far easier to translate a Pali work than to write a Nissaya text on it. Myanmar Pali scholars are indeed lucky to inherit the Nissaya texts written by generations after generations of Theravada Sayadaws. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Suan, Thank you, it is very kind of you to offer a nissaya text, I am realy delighted. I know how busy you are, and it depends on your time. I have an idea. It is very beneficial to reflect on the five khandhas, I never have enough of this. I shall give below the passage of Vis. we also have read with Larry. op 08-11-2003 14:03 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Of course, please feel free to forward the information to Pali list > as well as to Jim. > And, I also do not forget your request to create a sample of Nissaya > text with English for you. > > If you would like to see a particular passage of Pali turned into a > Nissaya text, please let me know. N: Visuddhimagga XIV, 33 just before ruupakkhandha (and in tetx it is the end of 443); <33. aya.m pana vitthaaro, ya.m taava vutta.m ``khandhaayatanadhaatuindriyasaccapa.ticcasamuppaadaadibhedaa dhammaa bhuumii''ti, ettha khandhaati pa~nca khandhaa ruupakkhandho vedanaakkhandho sa~n~naakkhandho sa"nkhaarakkhandho vi~n~naa.nakkhandhoti.> With great appreciation. Nina. 26819 From: Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 0:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi, Sarah (and Rob) - The notion of indirect relation is probably ill-named. What is meant is what mathematicians call the transitive closure of a relation. The idea is that if, among events A, B, C, D, E, and F, each is a condition for the occurrence of the next, then A is an "indirect" condition for the arising of F. Now, when Nyanatiloka writes “Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality itself karma,â€? my question was whether this also rules out F being volitional and A also being volitional, for, in that case, F would be a volitional action which is an indirect result of the former volitional action, A. Rob had said that accumulations are conditions for the arising of a volitional action, F, and we agreed that accumulations in turn have prior volitional actions (various A's) as conditions for their arising, making these A's "indirect" conditions for F (in the sense explained in this post, Sarah). I pointed out that this contradicts Nyanatiloka's statement. Rob then asserted that this is not a problem, because only direct relations are meant by Nyanatiloka. I presumed that Rob somehow correctly knew this to be the case, and, I thus, relented. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26820 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:26am Subject: Re: Nissaya Text On Section 431 In Visuddhimaggo: To Nina ---Very Nice, Suan! Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > Nissaya Text > > 431. Aya.m - This (is) , pana – on the other hand, vitthaaro – an > elaboration. Ya.m ettha – Where, vutta.m – it is said, taava – first, > ti – that, dhammaa – the principles, bhedaa – that are such > varieties as, (vaa - alternatively), bhedaa - dividable as, > khandhaa – aggregates, aayatanaani – venues, dhaatuyo – elements, > indriyaani – controls, saccaani – truths, pa.ticcasamuppaado – > dependent origination, aadi – and the like, bhuumi – the filed, > (paññaaya – of wisdom), khandhaati – aggregates are, pañca khandhaa – > the five aggregates, ti – namely, ruupakkhandho – matter aggregate, > vedanaakkhandho – feeling aggregate, saññakkhandho – memory > aggregate, sa`nkhaarakkhandho – activation aggregate, > viññaa.nakkhandho – and consciousness aggregate." > > 26821 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:44am Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Steve and all, I don't see how the ideas 1. "Anapanasati is difficult,difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas,paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home", 2. "Anapanasati is the most difficult of the 40 meditation subjects" 3. Anapanasati is for those with "great accumulations of panna and other parami" can be inferred from what the Buddha taught on mindfulness of breathing. I also have not come across in the discourses that the Buddha recommended anapanasati just for "Moha carita person". In fact, in the Anapanasati Sutta, the Buddha said: "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is of great fruit and benefit for anyone who develops and pursues it, not just for "Moha carita person". As I see it, when ideas regarding mindfulness of breathing, or meditation practice in general, are not consistent with what the Buddha taught, it is possible they are also at odd with one another. To me, your question 'Why then is anapanasati recommended for a "Moha carita person"?' pointed out that inconsistency. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi All > [snip] 26822 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:59am Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Sukin, I have not studied the Abhidhamma Pitaka. Maybe you can tell me how the qualities of Abhidhamma Pitaka lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Victor, Rob M. and All, [snip] 26823 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta: Dhamma in brief. Hi Victor, op 09-11-2003 03:16 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > I would recommend the discourse > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.53 > Gotami Sutta > To Gotami N: Thanks very much. Lodewijk usually is not inclined to read suttas, but now he did read and liked it. I looked up the co: These things lead to passion, not to release, etc. the piling up of rebirth not to the dispersion thereof... Piling up, Pali aacaaya: this is another word for accumulation. The Co says that the Buddha explained the continuation of the cycle, and also the end of the cycle. This is all in the sutta, but as often is the case, the Co gives us an extra reminder. The Gotamid attained arahatship by this exhortation. We are reminded that what we learn is not theoretical, it should be verified right now. Actually here is taught in short the Dependent Origination and the reverse. So long as there are ignorance and clinging the cycle continue. Gotamid could eradicate all ignorance by right understanding. Nina. 26824 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 37 Hi Larry and all, I found the Pali, it is the second part of Tiika 37. Difficult text. I shall read it again aloud and then summarize what I think. Do Sarah and others like me to produce it line by line?? Or shall we leave it, since the translation is in this footnote? I like the end: kamma-result is exclusively the province of a Buddha's knowledge' (Pm. > 444). , kammavipaako ca sabbaso buddhaana.myeva ~naa.nassa visayoti. Good to remember when we speculate about desirable object etc. Why should we know? More important are whether kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. More important to develop understanding of the present reality. As you will understand, I am far behind you. I have to jump! I try to translate parts of the foregoing, but only when I get the meaning more or less. I still like to try, although it is most difficult. However, in footnotes are parts done already. And after this one no commentary until Vis. 42, since it all amounts to the same for earsense, etc. But we see that also in olden times people tried to find out: which kamma produces eyesense and is it the same as the kamma that produces earsense. I asked A. Sujin once whether the same kamma kept on producing this or that, and she adviced caution in specifying. Nina. op 10-11-2003 02:45 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > The way I read this, the gist of the commentary (note 14) is that the > eye arises because of kamma that produces all the senses or because of > kamma that produces just the eye. > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > 37. 1. Herein, the eye's characteristic is sensitivity of primary > elements that is ready for the impact of visible data; or its > characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma > sourcing from desire to see.(14) Its function is to pick up [an > object](15) among visible data. It is manifested as the footing of > eye-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma > sourcing from desire to see. > ------------------ > 14. 'Here the first-mentioned characteristic of the eye is described > according to the kamma that produces a selfhood, and is common to all of > it, and this without touching on differentiation is the cause. The > second is according to the specialized kamma generated thus, 'Let my eye > be thus'. This is what they say. But it can be taken that the > first-mentioned characteristic is stated as sensitivity's interest in > lighting up its own objective fields, the five senses' state of > sensitivity being taken as a generality; and that the second is stated > as the seeing that is due to the particular division of its own cause, > the sensitivities' cause as the state of kamma being taken as a > generality or as a unity. The same method applies to the ear and so on. > 'Here it may be asked, "Is the arising of the faculties of the eye, > etc., due to kamma that is one or to kamma that is different?" Now the > ancients say, "In both ways". Herein, firstly, in the case of the > arising of an eye, etc., due to kamma that is different there is nothing > to be explained since the cause is divided up. But when their arising is > due to kamma that is one, how does there come to be differentiation > among them? It is due to dividedness in the cause too. For it is > craving, in the form of longing for this or that kind of becoming that, > itself having specific forms owing to hankering after the sense-bases > included in some kind of becoming or other, contrives, acting as > decisive-support, the specific divisions in the kamma that generates > such a kind of becoming. As soon as the kamma has acquired the > differentiation induced by that [hankering] it generates that effort > consisting in appropriate ability a multiple fruit with differentiated > essences, as though it had itself taken on a multiple form. And the > ability here need not be understood as anything other than the able > state; for it is simply the effort of producing fruit that is > differentiated by the differentiation due to the differentiation in its > cause. And the fact of this differentiating effort on the part of kamma > that is one being the cause of the multiple faculties will be dealt with > below as to logic and texts (note 21). Besides, it is told how one kind > of consciousness only is the cause of the generation of the ripe, the > unripe, the husked, and the unhusked fruit. But what is the use of > logical thinking? For the eye, etc., are the fruit of kamma; and > kamma-result is exclusively the province of a Buddha's knowledge' (Pm. > 444). > 15. Aavi~njana--'picking-up': see "aavijjhati" in P.T.S. Dict. > 26825 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 35 Hi Howard, op 09-11-2003 16:52 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ================================ > This is very clear. The secondary rupas require the > presence/foundation of the primary ones, but not vice-versa; so they are > derivative *in the > sense* of subordinatively requiring the primary rupas for their own presence. N: Yes, quite so. The four great elements condition the derived rupas they arise together with by way of conascence-condition, but there is no relation of mutuality, the derived rupas do not condition the four great elements by way of mutuality condition. H: As > far as only one at a time being experienced, I take it that the others (the > ones not being experienced) are either "subliminally" present in > consciousness, > or are not at all present in consciousness, but have all conditions in place > for their appearance, and are in "waiting mode" or are "queued up" as it were. N: I had to laugh because of queued up, there is no time for it, they are gone immediately. Thus, one of a group of rupas is experienced, and then the rupas of that group are all gone, never to come back. They are not there, then they are there, and then immediately they are gone. Moreover, rupas cannot be present in citta, citta is not a place where they could stay. Nina. 26826 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 1:19pm Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Victor and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > I also have not come across in the discourses that the Buddha > recommended anapanasati just for "Moha carita person". In fact, in > the Anapanasati Sutta, the Buddha said: > > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & > pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. > The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring > clear knowing & release to their culmination. > > > Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is of great fruit and benefit for > anyone who develops and pursues it, not just for "Moha carita > person". > > As I see it, when ideas regarding mindfulness of breathing, or > meditation practice in general, are not consistent with what the > Buddha taught, it is possible they are also at odd with one > another. To me, your question 'Why then is anapanasati recommended > for a "Moha carita person"?' pointed out that inconsistency. Here is an interesting observation reported by John Bullit in "Beyond the Tipitaka - A Field Guide to Post-canonical Pali Literature" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/postcanon.html "But it is noteworthy that the most significant discrepancies between the Canon and its commentaries concern meditation -- in particular, the relationship between concentration meditation and insight.[4] The question of the authority of the post-canonical texts thus remains a point of controversy within Theravada Buddhism." The footnote references p145 of "The Buddhist Religion" (fourth edition), by Richard H. Robinson and Willard L. Johnson (Belmont, California: Wadsworth, 1997) Metta, Rob M :-) 26827 From: Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:46am Subject: A Request for Your Good Thoughts Hi, all - My wife's mother passed away about an hour and a quarter ago in the intensive care unit. This has been a long, difficult time ever since last December. We were with her today for hours, giving her support and love, and we were there at the time of her passing. We did our best to help her be calm and unafraid, and we said what I think was very important to say at this crucial point. It was as good a passing as could have been expected. Her name was Jeanette. If you are comfortable with doing so, I would greatly appreciate your directing thoughts of well being and welfaring to her as she continues. With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26828 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:39am Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 23 B Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 23 B Relevant Sutta passage: seyyathaapi, raahula, aakaaso na katthaci pati.t.thito, Just as, Rahula, space does not settle anywhere, evameva kho tva.m, raahula, aakaasasama.m bhaavana.m bhaavehi. likewise, Rahula, you should cultivate the mental development that is like space. Co text: na katthaci pati.t.thitoti pathaviipabbatarukkhaadiisu ekasmimpi na pati.t.thito, As to the expression, it is nowhere established, this means, it does not settle in any place, such as on the earth, on a mountain or in a tree, yadi hi pathaviya.m pati.t.thito bhaveyya, pathaviyaa bhijjamaanaaya saheva bhijjeyya, If it would settle on the earth, and the earth would be destroyed, it would be destroyed together with it, pabbate patamaane saheva pateyya, rukkhe chijjamaane saheva chijjeyya. and evenso, when the mountain would break down it would break down together with it, and when the tree would be cut it would be destroyed together with it. English: As to the expression, it is nowhere established, this means, it does not settle in any place, such as on the earth, on a mountain or in a tree. If it would settle on the earth, and the earth would be destroyed, it would be destroyed together with it, and evenso, when the mountain would break down it would break down together with it, and when the tree would be cut it would be destroyed together with it. Subcommentary: na pati.t.thitoti na nissito na laggo. As to the expression, not established, this means, not dependent, not attached. ******* Nina. 26829 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Request for Your Good Thoughts Hi Howard, Thank you for sharing this news so soon. Our best wishes go out to Jeanette (as she was known) and also to you and Rita. we're very happy to hear that you were both able to give so much support and love and that it was such a peaceful parting. She was indeed blessed to have you for a son-in-law and Rita for her daughter. With metta to you both, Sarah & Jon ============== 26830 From: Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] earth, water, fire, air Hi Sarah, In case you missed it, here is another quote for your collection on movement. It is a reference that came up in Vism XIV 35. I understand "successive arising" to mean sequential regeneration of a 4 element group continuum in slightly different locations. Movement is an illusion. Is that agreeable? ------------------------ Vism XI 93: The air element has the characteristic of distending. Its fuction is to cause motion. It is manifested as conveying. (37) This is how they should be given attention by characteristic, and so on. [366] (37) "Abhiniihara"--'conveying': not in this sense in P.T.S. Dict. ' "Conveying" is acting as cause for the successive arising at adjacent locations (desantaruppatti) of the conglomeration of elements (bhuuta-sa.nghaata)' (Pm.363). Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air element: ' "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362). Larry 26831 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:30am Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Steve and all, > > I don't see how the ideas > Hi Victor, You make some very good points. I completely agree with you. Again, we are all seeing this idea that mindfulness of breathing (Anapanasati) is nearly impossible for anyone to do unless they are already a Buddha or close to being one arising in this group. Not only does this not make any sense- what would be the point of doing it if you are already enlightened? Consciousness would be continually present then- it also doesn't correspond with what the Buddha taught in the suttas. When I asked Nina this question in a previous post (26440), she replied, "In the "Path of Purity" by Buddhaghosa. It is explained that we should not take it lightly." Now I am reading this quote by Steve from an unidentified source: "Anapanasati is difficult,difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas,paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home". We have gone from `it shouldn't be taken lightly' to `it is nearly impossible to do'. This is how rumors get started. Personally, this isn't important to me. I am not confused about the issue. I know that mindfulness of breathing is what the Buddha recommended and taught for all unenlightened beings. Even if one should choose other meditation objects later on, a good foundation of mindfulness of breathing is essential for mindfulness in everyday life. I am thinking more for those members who can be swayed by such authoritative statements which are simply false. We have a responsibility beyond ourselves, I think. This issue needs to be cleared up once and for all if possible. Metta, James 26832 From: shakti Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Howard, Thank you for sharing the parting of your mother in law. How fortunate that you were able to offer so much love and support to her in her last days. It is always such a gift to be able to be with someone when they die. My thoughts and good wishes go out to Jeanette, you and your family. May you all be well and grow in love and understanding during this difficult time. With metta, Shakti upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, all - My wife's mother passed away about an hour and a quarter ago in the intensive care unit. This has been a long, difficult time ever since last December. We were with her today for hours, giving her support and love, and we were there at the time of her passing. We did our best to help her be calm and unafraid, and we said what I think was very important to say at this crucial point. It was as good a passing as could have been expected. Her name was Jeanette. If you are comfortable with doing so, I would greatly appreciate your directing thoughts of well being and welfaring to her as she continues. With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26833 From: nordwest Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Request for Your Good Thoughts The NEMBUTSU is with her. Gassho, Thomas upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, all - My wife's mother passed away about an hour and a quarter ago in the intensive care unit. This has been a long, difficult time ever since last December. We were with her today for hours, giving her support and love, and we were there at the time of her passing. We did our best to help her be calm and unafraid, and we said what I think was very important to say at this crucial point. It was as good a passing as could have been expected. Her name was Jeanette. If you are comfortable with doing so, I would greatly appreciate your directing thoughts of well being and welfaring to her as she continues. With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26835 From: Julie, Steve and Kevin Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 8:26pm Subject: RE: Buddhism v Psychology Hi Sarah and dsg, I noticed that you said you "trained as a psychologist" in one of the posts. I'm interested in this area and may (depending on many things!!!!!!) do some study along these lines with the "plan" of doing some counselling at some stage. It's all talk at the moment..... I've been wondering how well psychology and Buddhism go together. On the surface they look to compliment each other but the more I look into the Abhidhamma etc, the idea of "self" awareness (psychology) and awareness (buddhism) seem to contradict. One is interested in our past and present stories the other is interested in this utlimate present reality, nothing more, nothing less. Am I on the right track? Can they compliment each other? What do you think? See Ya Julie 26836 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:18pm Subject: nissaya text Dear Suan, this is very interesting. I noticed that you took ettha and tied it to yam. I would never have thought of that! It gives us a feel of the way of Nissaya texts. And then, giving the right cases of the parts in the compound, so that we know at once what noun of what gender it is. A great help for the Pali student. Is it all right to frwd it to my friends of the Pali list? Thank you very much, Nina. op 10-11-2003 14:44 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > The following is the Pali passage that Nina provided. It is from > Section 431 in Visuddhimaggo. 26837 From: Andrew Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:23pm Subject: Worry Hello all A big welcome home to all the Myanmar-ites. Great photos! At the risk of re-activating that "pigs eating dung" thread, I note that most people feel quite happy about the Dhamma being in line with commonsense ie good things being kusala and bad things being akusala etc. In my Bhikkhu Bodhi edited Abhidhammattha Sangaha, worry (kukkucca) is defined as "worry or remorse after having done wrong" (p 84). On the one hand, I can see that this type of worry is a gross form of dukkha and fittingly akusala. On the other hand, it seems to be a good support for shame and fear of wrongdoing, both beautiful cetasikas. Both shame and worry are backward-looking (ie into past events), so why is one kusala and the other akusala? What about people who do wrong and have no worry or shame at all? Do such people exist or is it merely that their worry is too fleeting to be noticed by themselves or other worldlings? Sorry to be a worrywort but any thoughts on the above would be very soothing. With metta Andrew 26838 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:27pm Subject: Re: A Request for Your Good Thoughts Hi Howard, Last night, I wasn't feeling too well. I still wasn't feeling all that well this morning, so I decided to stay home from work for the morning. I decided to lie in bed and feel sorry for myself; many men are like babies when they get sick :-) Early this morning, I got out of bed to read the latest on DSG. I read your message about the passing away of your mother-in-law and knew what I wanted to do. It is amazing how kusala thoughts push aside sickness. Last year, I printed 1000 copies of Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" book for free distribution. It was an overwhelming success; demand far outstripped supply. We recently printed another 2200 copies. The Chief Reverend at our local temple had asked for more copies to distribute and so I decided to go to the temple and offer the books as dana so that I could share the merit with your mother-in-law. Sabbadanam dhammadanam jinati: "The gift of the Dhamma excels all other gifts". I suspect that Nina has no idea how much good kamma she has created through her writings. On the way to the temple, my mind was exited with the prospect of performing this dana. I then noticed that a taxi had struck a motorcyclist and they were at the side of the road. The motorcyclist looked as though he was in pain. This image pushed aside my excitement and I reflected with calm upekkha, "all beings are heirs to their kamma". When I got to the temple, I realized that there was a novitiate programme going on. In Buddhist countries, youths spend one or two weeks living like monks so that they better appreciate the monastic lifestyle. There were about 100 youths, mainly between ten to fifteen years of age, but some in their later teens and a few adults. The Chief Reverend asked me to give an impromptu Dhamma talk on the Abhidhamma for about an hour. For about the duration of one citta process, I considered talking about the inherent characteristics of rupa :-) , but then decided to talk about accumulations. What a fantastic opportunity to create even more merit to share with your mother-in-law! I gave each of the novitiates a copy of Nina's book and left a few more for distribution. I have posted a picture of the event in the DSG photo album (Members Group); I am the one in the back row dressed in dark blue among the sea of orange (brown for the females). I also uploaded a photo of myself with two young upasakas holding Nina's book, "Buddhism in Daily Life". As I explained to the upasakas, if you want to build accumulations from wholesome deeds, you should spend time planning it, you should put your heart into it when you do it, you should transfer the merit accumulated and you should review the event again later. All of these activities are wholesome and contribute to creating wholesome accumulations. Howard, I actually used my current action as an example and I told them about the death of your mother-in-law being a condition; I even used the term pakatupanissaya :-) (natural decisive support condition). After the talk, the Chief Reverend asked the name of your mother-in- law, your name and your wife's name. We (just the two of us) did a wonderful transferrence of merit ceremony. In the Sri Lankan tradition, when one transfers merit (or does some other meritorious deed), you are given a coloured string that has been blessed by a monk. People tie this string around their wrist and it acts as a condition to cause one to recall the good deed that one has done. I received a string from Chief Reverend and I asked him to specially bless another one for you and one for your wife, Rita. Please send me your snail mail address off-list so that I can send them to you. You don't have to wear this string, but please put it in a place where you can see it from time to time (I have one tied around my rear-view mirror in my car) and reflect on the good things that you have done and transfer the merit from these good deeds to your mother-in-law. Howard, I have spent most of the day thinking about your mother-in- law and, as mentioned in the Bhumija Sutta (Mn126), trying to put into practice my good intentions. I sincerely hope that it helps. Metta and Karuna, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > My wife's mother passed away about an hour and a quarter ago in the > intensive care unit. This has been a long, difficult time ever since last > December. We were with her today for hours, giving her support and love, and we were > there at the time of her passing. We did our best to help her be calm and > unafraid, and we said what I think was very important to say at this crucial > point. It was as good a passing as could have been expected. Her name was > Jeanette. If you are comfortable with doing so, I would greatly appreciate your > directing thoughts of well being and welfaring to her as she continues. 26839 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:34pm Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Here is an interesting observation reported by John Bullit > in "Beyond the Tipitaka - A Field Guide to Post-canonical Pali > Literature" > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/postcanon.html > > "But it is noteworthy that the most significant discrepancies > between the Canon and its commentaries concern meditation -- in > particular, the relationship between concentration meditation and > insight.[4] The question of the authority of the post-canonical > texts thus remains a point of controversy within Theravada Buddhism." > > The footnote references p145 of "The Buddhist Religion" (fourth > edition), by Richard H. Robinson and Willard L. Johnson (Belmont, > California: Wadsworth, 1997) > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Hi Rob M., Thank you for this informative link. I want to quote the section that immediately precedes the section that you quoted: "And what of their first-hand understanding of Dhamma: if the commentators were scholars first and foremost, would they have had sufficient meditative experience to write with authority on the subject of meditation? This is more problematic. Perhaps commentators like Buddhaghosa had enough time (and accumulated merit) both for mastering meditation and for their impressive scholarly pursuits; we will never know." Now, my question is: If Buddhaghosa was simply translating the original commentaries of Sri Lanka from Sinhala into Pali, why would he need to know anything about meditation? I think it becomes more apparent that Buddhaghosa didn't just translate, he also extrapolated his own discourse as he saw fit. Otherwise there wouldn't be this discrepancy between meditation as presented in the suttas and meditation as presented in the commentaries. Metta, James 26840 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: Buddhism v Psychology Hi Julie, Good to hear from you;-) I remember hearing of some good programmes in Melbourne and I’d encourage you. I think any study or work one does will be assisted by some understanding of Buddhism. ..... >I've been wondering how well > psychology and Buddhism go together. <..> .... I think your comments are pretty good but I don’t think there needs to be any conflict. After I started studying the Abhidhamma, I completely lost interest in aspects of psychology which seemed to be following wrong views and though I continued to be a member of psychological societies and to attend meetings, read publications, liaise with schools and so on until recently, I ignored anything which didn’t ‘compliment’. Actually, I think the little Abhidhamma knowledge I’ve had has made it all a lot, lot simpler to weed out what’s right and wrong along the way, useful and useless and to hopefully ensure I’m not giving erroneous advice (Victor might not agree;-)). I’m very, very grateful that I came across Buddhism and Abhidhamma in particular when I did. Mainly I just see science and psychology as being limited by their own obvious parameters rather than ‘wrong’. Different goals as you mentioned. Like Nina said about science, I tend to compartmentalise completely my knowledge of psychology and Buddhism. I’ve never tried to make them say the ‘same’ or ever thought they should or ever had any problems in this regard. Most my work in Hong Kong has been in practical language/linguistic related areas, working with schools and referrals - assessments, gifted students, dyslexia, English as a 2nd/3rd/4th language and associated problems, group work etc etc. Ages ago in London, I used to do counselling work in psychiatric centres and with delinquent adolescents - in my case very strongly influenced by what I understood from the Dhamma. Now I’m almost retired (or am taking my first break in a long while) and have recently given up all my memberships, partly because of being busy with DSG;-) I’ve stopped getting psychology journals, have stopped liaising actively with schools and am happily out of date. It’s funny, but even before I’d heard anything about Buddhism, what I had most difficulty with when I was studying psychology, was the compulsory experimentation component which at that time included compulsory animal (rat and hamster) experiments which I stongly objected to. I’m sure things have changed in 30yrs in this regard;-)I don’t think I ever had any other problems and even at that time, broad philosophical appraoches and questioning approaches were welcomed. I also pursued higher studies in business psychology at a time that I was doing quite a bit of corporate work - no conflict like RobM always stresses. Anything you study and any papers you write and any counselling you provide will be greatly enhanced by your Abhidhamma studies and understanding, as I see it Julie. Others like Christine who also provide counselling services may be able to give further advice and comments, I hope. Not sure if this ramble helps. with metta, Sarah ====== 26841 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 0:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi RobM & All, --- robmoult wrote: > Here is an interesting observation reported by John Bullit > in "Beyond the Tipitaka - A Field Guide to Post-canonical Pali > Literature" > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/postcanon.html > > "But it is noteworthy that the most significant discrepancies > between the Canon and its commentaries concern meditation -- in > particular, the relationship between concentration meditation and > insight.[4] The question of the authority of the post-canonical > texts thus remains a point of controversy within Theravada Buddhism." .... "The most significant discrepancies" according to whom? Presumably, not according to the ancient commentators;-) Perhaps it depends on how 'meditation' is understood by modern commentators. Metta, Sarah ===== 26842 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 0:29am Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Now, my question is: If Buddhaghosa was simply translating the > original commentaries of Sri Lanka from Sinhala into Pali, why would > he need to know anything about meditation? I think it becomes more > apparent that Buddhaghosa didn't just translate, he also extrapolated > his own discourse as he saw fit. Otherwise there wouldn't be this > discrepancy between meditation as presented in the suttas and > meditation as presented in the commentaries. I believe that a good compiler / tanslator needs to have subject matter expertise. They are constantly faced with questions, "what is the best word to use in this case?", "how to capture the feeling, not just the words of the text?", "which ideas to include, which to cut out?", "how to handle differences between two texts?". There is no way that Buddhaghosa could do his job without some "interpolation"; but what of extrapolation? This particular thread started because I raised the topic of carita. Here are a couple of sections of Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga on this subject that show how Buddhaghosa dealt with extrapolation: (III, 74) "... There are six kinds of temperament, that is, greedy temperament, hating temperament, deluded temperament, faithful temperament, intelligent temperament and speculative temperament. Some would have fourteen..." This is followed by an explanation of why Buddaghosa believes that six is more appropriate than fourteen. "Some" mentioned by Buddhaghosa is the Elder Upatissa, author of the Vimuttimagga (Path of Freedom). Interesting, Anuruddha agreed with Buddhaghosa (six kinds) in the Abhidhammatthasangaha but Sumangala, the author of the Abhidhammatthavibhavini, the commentary to the Abhidhammatthasangaha, expanded the number to 63 kinds. If Venerables such as these cannot agree, what are we to do? (III, 96) Previous to this, the text describes the ways of knowing a person's temperament by looking at the way that they walk, the way that they stand, the way that they eat, etc. "...However, these directions for recognizing the temperaments have not been handed down in their entirety in either the text or commentaries; they are only expressed according to the opinion of the teachers and cannot therefore be treated as authentic..." From these two examples, it is seen that Buddhaghosa is careful about interserting his opinions and clearly identifies his own opinions when he inserts them. These two examples do not prove that the whole of Buddhaghosa's writings are free from hidden opinions, but they do indicate that Buddhaghosa was aware of the problem. Metta, Rob M :-) 26843 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 0:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Sarah, I just sent a post to James highlighting a difference between the various commentators. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > "The most significant discrepancies" according to whom? > > Presumably, not according to the ancient commentators;-) > > Perhaps it depends on how 'meditation' is understood by modern > commentators. Metta, Rob M :-) 26844 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Worry Hi Andrew, I hope others will add more, but I can't resist saying it's good to talk to you again;-) Briefly: --- Andrew wrote: > In my Bhikkhu Bodhi edited Abhidhammattha Sangaha, worry (kukkucca) > is defined as "worry or remorse after having done wrong" (p 84). On > the one hand, I can see that this type of worry is a gross form of > dukkha and fittingly akusala. > On the other hand, it seems to be a good support for shame and fear > of wrongdoing, both beautiful cetasikas. > Both shame and worry are backward-looking (ie into past events), so > why is one kusala and the other akusala? ..... I see shame and fear of wrongdoing (hiri and ottapa) to relate to the present moment and to the avoidance or abstention of akusala at this time. They arise with all beautiful cittas. I like the word 'scrupulous'. When there is sila, for example the abstaining from wrong speech or action as we discussed before, there are scruples and the mental states are scrupulous about being 'clean'. ..... > What about people who do wrong and have no worry or shame at all? Do > such people exist or is it merely that their worry is too fleeting to > be noticed by themselves or other worldlings? ... No people existing of course and the different wholesome and unwholesome mental states that follow change all the time. Conditions again. There may be scruples or shame and yet still further wrong deeds performed. This is why it's so difficult to know the 'carita' or type, because all types follow in succession all the time, I think. Kusala akusala kusala akusala. Often the wrong deeds or worry are known, but they're still taken for self and something lasting. .... > Sorry to be a worrywort but any thoughts on the above would be very > soothing. With metta .... Now any concern about being a worrywort is likely to be more akusala;-) Not sure if this is soothing. Let us know. Glad to hear you're studying CMA, Andrew. I know you're studying Ethics - maybe you have some input into Julie's Qu about any conflicts in the study with Buddhism and Abhidhamma in particular. I'm sure you could add some helpful comments for her. Metta, Sarah p.s Glad you liked the Myanmar pix and tales. Perhaps we could encourage you and your wife to join us in Asia one day. ======= 26845 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] earth, water, fire, air Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > In case you missed it, here is another quote for your collection on > movement. It is a reference that came up in Vism XIV 35. I understand > "successive arising" to mean sequential regeneration of a 4 element > group continuum in slightly different locations. Movement is an > illusion. Is that agreeable? .... Very agreeable & excellent quote. Much appreciation for all your work on the Vism threads. Metta, Sarah ===== 26847 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 37 Hi Nina & Howard, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry and all, > I found the Pali, it is the second part of Tiika 37. Difficult text. I > shall > read it again aloud and then summarize what I think. Do Sarah and others > like me to produce it line by line?? Or shall we leave it, since the > translation is in this footnote? > I like the end: kamma-result is exclusively the province of a Buddha's > knowledge' (Pm. .... Yes, good reminder at the end. I usually run a few days behind on the Vism threads as I leave them til I have enough time to read carefully. I appreciate your line by line translations, but I think it just depends on you. The summaries are very helpful too. ***** There is so much wealth in these passages such as all the conditions for seeing consciousness to arise. We can say it's the result of kamma, but without eye-base and visible object, mental factors including contact and past craving which conditioned this rebirth, there'd be no seeing at all. Many other natural decisive and other conditions too. Howard, according to mathematical theories, I understand some of these conditions, such as the past craving could be referred to as 'indirect conditions', though I haven't seen this term used in this context. Everything is included in the 24 paccaya, in pakatupanissaya paccaya and other conditions. Nyantiloka's dictionary definition about kamma was distinguishing between vipaka (result of kamma) and new kamma (cetana cetasika) as I understood. So often people have the idea of difficulties and so on as being the direct result of kamma, so he was clarifying the distinction as RobM explained. ***** From snipped Vism passage: >For it is > craving, in the form of longing for this or that kind of becoming that, > itself having specific forms owing to hankering after the sense-bases > included in some kind of becoming or other, contrives, acting as > decisive-support, the specific divisions in the kamma that generates > such a kind of becoming. ***** Nina, I asked about ‘pre-craving’ or purima tanha and was reminded that anything can be a condition, not just in the last life, but over the past aeons and even now. I also note more and more how similar our questions are to those raised in the old days. I think we find this in all the Tipitaka texts and commentaries. Same realities, same wrong views. Metta, Sarah ====== 26848 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Request for Your Good Thoughts Hi RobM (& Howard), --- robmoult wrote: <..> > Last year, I printed 1000 copies of Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" > book for free distribution. It was an overwhelming success; demand > far outstripped supply. We recently printed another 2200 copies. The > Chief Reverend at our local temple had asked for more copies to > distribute and so I decided to go to the temple and offer the books > as dana so that I could share the merit with your mother-in-law. > Sabbadanam dhammadanam jinati: "The gift of the Dhamma excels all > other gifts". I suspect that Nina has no idea how much good kamma > she has created through her writings. <..> I just finished typing and went to print out posts from the day to read later with Jon. As I came across this one of yours, I was moved to tears. I know your kind deeds will mean a tremendous amount to Howard and his wife too. You are a truly a good friend to us all in time of need and as an inspiration, Rob. Anumodana to you, the Chief Reverend and also your family who support you too. Metta, Sarah ====== 26849 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:34am Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi James, I believe that a good compiler / tanslator needs to have subject > matter expertise. They are constantly faced with questions, "what is > the best word to use in this case?", "how to capture the feeling, > not just the words of the text?", "which ideas to include, which to > cut out?", "how to handle differences between two texts?". > > There is no way that Buddhaghosa could do his job without > some "interpolation"; but what of extrapolation? Hi Rob M., I believe that a translation should be as unbiased as possible. That wouldn't include cutting anything out or deciding how best to demonstrate the `feeling' of the text. Anyone who considers himself an `expert' with his own ideas of the subject matter shouldn't be a translator really; he should be an original author. Unfortunately we can't know how close Buddhaghosa was to the original texts because as soon as he was done translating them, they `disappeared'. Sarah claimed in a previous post (sorry, don't have the number), that they disappeared because of discontinued use. Now, how likely is that? Consider this information from the article we have been discussing: "In the early decades of the 1st c. BCE in Sri Lanka -- then the hub of Theravada Buddhist scholarship and monastic training -- several forces combined that would threaten the continuity of the ancient oral tradition by which the Pali Tipitaka had been passed down from one generation of monks to the next. A rebellion against the king and invasions from south India forced many monks to flee the island. At the same time a famine of unprecedented proportions descended on the island for a dozen years. The commentaries recount heroic stories of monks who, fearing that the treasure of the Tipitaka might forever be lost, retreated to the relative safety of the south coast, where they survived only on roots and leaves, reciting the texts amongst themselves day and night. The continuity of the Tipitaka hung by a thread: at one point only one monk was able to recite the Niddesa." The monks of Sri Lanka worked so hard to preserve the texts, a history of monks practically starving in that pursuit, and then after Buddhaghosa translates the commentaries they just `lose' the originals? I, for one, don't believe that. Metta, James 26850 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:37am Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Victor, > I have not studied the Abhidhamma Pitaka. Maybe you can tell me how > the qualities of Abhidhamma Pitaka lead to dispassion, not to > passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, > not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to > contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; > to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not > to being burdensome. :-)I was hoping you wouldn't direct the question back to me. But I had several reasons for asking you as I did. You were the one to initiate this line of inquiry. I have the impression that you are more analytic and scholarly than I am, so I thought that you should take the lead and I follow you. I like to learn more about your background and reason for not believing in the Abhidhamma. I was hoping others would also participate so that I could learn more about the way they view the Abhidhamma in particular and the Teachings in general, and here it does not matter who it is, and whether they are pro Abhidhamma or not. Anyway, since you are not willing to discuss the Abhidhamma, because you are not versed in it, (and I don't believe I am much better than you in this regard, if at all), could you then do so with reference to the Suttas? In other words, how according to you does the Buddha's Teachings as taught in the Suttas, "lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome"? Particularly if you could, apply the same question to the practice of formal meditation! How does formal meditation lead to dispassion etc.? Actually, I do not quite like to ask myself such questions, nor do I think it is particularly useful to ask others the same, i.e. taking into consideration my own very weak understanding. Particular reminders are already so difficult to see each time someone mentions them, how much more so would it be when considering such a `general view'. In me it would breed much theorizing and papanca, which I already have too much of. However, I would like to mention here with regard to my impression of Abhidhamma that its study deals with "present realities". And this I think, is more important that anything else. It does not matter what the labels are used, as long as they lead to `what can be observed in the moment'. And even if it is still only theory, because accumulated panna is not strong enough to condition `practice', this theory makes more sense than anything else I have ever encountered. In fact with this understanding in mind, I get the impression increasingly, that to think in terms of `doing' something for future results would be from `wrong thinking', `misdirected thoughts'. It is possible that you think that `theory' or `pariyatti', is just a lot of words, words that `hinder' direct understanding instead of leading to it. But as I have said before, my own understanding about `theory' is that it is not the `words' that matter, but the understanding of what they mean. Once there is the understanding, then `words' become an ally instead of a hindrance. Without the `understanding', yes, it would be quite useless. However the important thing to remember is not about the `pro' as against the `con', this is in fact a minor and quite obvious point anyway. What is hard to appreciate, being subtle, is that `theory' is a necessary starting point. And this theory being equivalent to a particular level of `understanding', is what `conditions' the successive levels of the same. There is *no* other way. However there is no self who decides to `apply' or `let go' of theory. Lobha is so pervasive and the `self' seeks results, and in the process it is attracted by what `seems' to work and is within `self's' reach. Of course, an Abhidhammist also has an equal tendency to lobha, which amongst other things, is the habit of `labeling', resting upon the perceived ability to identify experiences. This is something which happens to me all the time and perhaps this is one thing that strikes someone like you Victor, as being particularly inhibiting. Again this is why it is so important to discuss with wise friends. ;-) Have I lead you far enough. ;-) Look forward to your response. Metta, Sukin. 26851 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Howard and family, It is a hard time at such particular moment. Anyone of worldly people will suffer at such a time. To have support at this time is essential. Could you please give my compassion to all members of your family. Suffering expands because of spreading mind. This spreading mind can be hit away by concentrating mind. I understand the situation. It is a hard time. Spreading mind helps angry mind which are grief reactions. To lessen grief reactions, concentrating mind will help you and your family. What should be concentrated at this moment and at such a hard time. She did such and such good deeds and merit. She deserves such a good becoming. You and your family are doing good deeds and meritorious things at this time. May they all go to her. Good thoughts will replace negative thoughts such as great loss which again will thrown away losers' mind and their mind become spreading mind. As you requested for good thoughts, thoughts about her good things, thoughts about your actions for her and emotional support of Acariyas nearby ( (Bhantes ) will all accumulate and will become concentrating mind. This will ease away greaf reactions. May she arise in higher realm. May you and your family feel calm and do good meritorious deeds for her and may they go to her. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing -------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > My wife's mother passed away about an hour and a quarter ago in the > intensive care unit. This has been a long, difficult time ever since last > December. We were with her today for hours, giving her support and love, and we were > there at the time of her passing. We did our best to help her be calm and > unafraid, and we said what I think was very important to say at this crucial > point. It was as good a passing as could have been expected. Her name was > Jeanette. If you are comfortable with doing so, I would greatly appreciate your > directing thoughts of well being and welfaring to her as she continues. > > With much metta, > Howard 26852 From: Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 0:28am Subject: Many Thanks To my good DSG friends whose received posts are copied below (in no intended order), to all those who have written but whose posts haven't yet been received in my in-box, and to all those others who have offered support in their hearts and minds (the most important places of all), I am keenly aware of the remarkable good will and kindness that prevails here on DSG, and my wife and I are very grateful for your metta and karuna. With metta, Howard ____________________________________________ Hello Howard, Rita and family, Howard - thank you for telling us about the passing of Jeannette. May we all be so fortunate at the time of our faring-on as to be surrounded by the love, support and compassionate understanding of good people. I am holding you and your Lady Wife in my thoughts, and think of Jeannette with good wishes in her continuing. metta and peace, Christine -------------------- _____________________________________________ Hi Howard, Thank you for sharing this news so soon. Our best wishes go out to Jeanette (as she was known) and also to you and Rita. we're very happy to hear that you were both able to give so much support and love and that it was such a peaceful parting. She was indeed blessed to have you for a son-in-law and Rita for her daughter. With metta to you both, Sarah & Jon ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Dear Howard, Thank you for sharing the parting of your mother in law. How fortunate that you were able to offer so much love and support to her in her last days. It is always such a gift to be able to be with someone when they die. My thoughts and good wishes go out to Jeanette, you and your family. May you all be well and grow in love and understanding during this difficult time. With metta, Shakti ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26853 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:42am Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- Dear Steve, I will write some details about this in a day or 2 when I have some free time. In the meanwhile it is worth knowing that anapanasati is suitable for both mohacarita as RoBM mentioned and also the vitakkacaritassa (discursive or investigative ) type, which Rob didnt mention I think. Note that anapanasati is the meditaion which especially stills vitakka and vicara, which both types have a lot of and which must be dropped in the higher stages of jhana. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi All > > Rob Moult wrote: > > > Carita (Temperament) > > ==================== > To ensure progress, it is important > > that a meditation subject be selected to match the meditator's > > carita. It is possible for an individual to have a combination of > > caritas. > snip> > > - Moha-carita (deluded; propensity to delusion and superstition): > > Breathing > snip> > > A moha-carita person is associated with ignorance, delusion and > > forgetfulness. He is usually perplexed and confused. He cannot > > distinguish between right and wrong, good and bad. He is incapable > > of making his own judgments, so he follows the opinion of others in > > denouncing or praising someone. Since he is devoid of sati and > panna > > (wisdom) he wastes his time by being lazy, indolent and skeptical. > > He is the victim of sloth and torpor. Delusion vacillates due to > > superficiality while pondering vacillates due to conjecturing. Like > > moha-carita, the vitakka-carita person also lives in the way of > > uncertainty and skepticism. He is indolent and incapable of doing > > moral deeds. He indulges in useless babble, speculation and > > imagination, so he becomes a useless person, squandering his time. > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) > > > It is said, "Anapanasati is difficult,difficult to develop, a field > in which only the minds of Buddhas,paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons > are at home" and "The most difficult of the 40 meditation subjects" > and that anapanasati is for those with "great accumulations of panna > and other parami". > > Why then is anapanasati recommended for a "Moha carita person"? > > What is the definition of "Buddhas sons"? > > Thankyou > Steve 26854 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:05am Subject: Re: nissaya text : To Nina Dear Nina How are you? Please feel free to forward my "Nissya Text" post to Pali List. And, of course, this present post as well if you want to. The short Nissaya text I wrote was merely a sample. If I (or someone) were to write a new Nissaya on Visuddhimaggo, I will also have to thoroughly consult the existing Nissaya texts. As I write my version of Nissaya along, I would need to discuss any discrepancies between mine and previous Nissaya texts. If there were disagreements, it is the responsiblity of a new Nissaya writer to argue why, and argue with utmost respect for the previous Nissaya writers. Sometimes, the new Nissaya writer may simply mention what previous Nissaya texts wrote - alongside his preferred version, and let the readers choose. In short, a new Nissaya writer is not merely a writer, but also needs to take on the role of a critical editor of the previous works. And these types of critical editing of the previous Nissaya texts are done, (not out of ego as among some university academics), but out of the need for advancement of exhaustic Pali scholarship. The tradition of writing new Nissaya texts on Pali Tipi.taka, commentaries, subcommentaries and any related works will remain forever in Myanmar in order to keep up with future changes in Burmese language and its future speakers or readers, if not for any thing else. Modern Myanmar Sayadaws such as Mahagandhayon Sayadaw and Mahasi Sayadaw wrote new Nissaya texts because they saw the need to update Burmese language used in Nissaya texts for the convenient understanding of modern Burmese readers. When I wrote a sample Nissaya text on the Pali passage you gave, I did so without a chance to consult the existing Nissaya texts on Vissudhumaggo. Nor have I "The Path Of Purity" done by U Pe Maung Tin. When I come to have Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on Vissudhimaggo, I will write something if there were differences between mine and Sayadaw's. Yes, I linked "yam" and "ettha". I believe that a traditional Nissaya text would treat "yam" as "yattha" by looking at "ettha", and possibly rewrote "yam" as "yattha". Even though I did not rewrite "yam" as "yattha", I also translated "yam" as "where" clause (yattha clause) by looking at "ettha". I merely placed "yam" and "ettha" side by side so that you could trace the workings of the original Pali terms. This morning (11-11-2003), I checked N(y)aa.namoli's "Path Of Purification" and noticed that he did not translate "Ayam pana vitthaaro". And he translated "yam" as "when" clause (as though "yasmim" clause), and separately translated "ettha" as "here" adverb later. If you have "The Path Of Purity", please ckeck how U Pe Maung Tin translated the Section 431 of Vissudhimaggo you gave. I find that translation of "yam taava vuttam" as "where" clase gives us neat and natural English. And fewer words because the "where" clause takes care of "ettha" ("here" adverb). With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Suan, this is very interesting. I noticed that you took ettha and tied it to yam. I would never have thought of that! It gives us a feel of the way of Nissaya texts. And then, giving the right cases of the parts in the compound, so that we know at once what noun of what gender it is. A great help for the Pali student. Is it all right to frwd it to my friends of the Pali list? Thank you very much, Nina. 26855 From: Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Rob - I received this post of yours after I sent a somewhat general reply of thanks DSG members, and you were not explicitly included in that post of mine. But your response is so special that I am happy for the opportunity to thank you specially. You are a wonderful friend, and a Buddhist who lives his Buddhism in an unusual and admirable manner. I include a couple additional comments below, in context. In a message dated 11/11/03 8:16:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Last night, I wasn't feeling too well. I still wasn't feeling all > that well this morning, so I decided to stay home from work for the > morning. I decided to lie in bed and feel sorry for myself; many men > are like babies when they get sick :-) > > Early this morning, I got out of bed to read the latest on DSG. I > read your message about the passing away of your mother-in-law and > knew what I wanted to do. It is amazing how kusala thoughts push > aside sickness. > > Last year, I printed 1000 copies of Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" > book for free distribution. It was an overwhelming success; demand > far outstripped supply. We recently printed another 2200 copies. The > Chief Reverend at our local temple had asked for more copies to > distribute and so I decided to go to the temple and offer the books > as dana so that I could share the merit with your mother-in-law. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is so wonderful of you, Rob. This is an act of kindness to a friend, an act of support to a person going on to a new life, and support of the Dhamma, all in one. BTW, of all Nina's writings, I most appreciate her BDL, which makes your gift all the more meaningful to me. -------------------------------------------------------------- > Sabbadanam dhammadanam jinati: "The gift of the Dhamma excels all > other gifts". I suspect that Nina has no idea how much good kamma > she has created through her writings. > > On the way to the temple, my mind was exited with the prospect of > performing this dana. I then noticed that a taxi had struck a > motorcyclist and they were at the side of the road. The motorcyclist > looked as though he was in pain. This image pushed aside my > excitement and I reflected with calm upekkha, "all beings are heirs > to their kamma". > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You are a person in whom the Dhamma is strong, Rob. And the Dhamma has helped both my wife and me through this time. ------------------------------------------------------- > > When I got to the temple, I realized that there was a novitiate > programme going on. In Buddhist countries, youths spend one or two > weeks living like monks so that they better appreciate the monastic > lifestyle. There were about 100 youths, mainly between ten to > fifteen years of age, but some in their later teens and a few > adults. The Chief Reverend asked me to give an impromptu Dhamma talk > on the Abhidhamma for about an hour. For about the duration of one > citta process, I considered talking about the inherent > characteristics of rupa :-) , but then decided to talk about > accumulations. > > What a fantastic opportunity to create even more merit to share with > your mother-in-law! I gave each of the novitiates a copy of Nina's > book and left a few more for distribution. I have posted a picture > of the event in the DSG photo album (Members Group); I am the one in > the back row dressed in dark blue among the sea of orange (brown for > the females). I also uploaded a photo of myself with two young > upasakas holding Nina's book, "Buddhism in Daily Life". > > As I explained to the upasakas, if you want to build accumulations > from wholesome deeds, you should spend time planning it, you should > put your heart into it when you do it, you should transfer the merit > accumulated and you should review the event again later. All of > these activities are wholesome and contribute to creating wholesome > accumulations. Howard, I actually used my current action as an > example and I told them about the death of your mother-in-law being > a condition; I even used the term pakatupanissaya :-) (natural > decisive support condition). > > After the talk, the Chief Reverend asked the name of your mother-in- > law, your name and your wife's name. We (just the two of us) did a > wonderful transferrence of merit ceremony. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Oh my, Rob! You have no idea at how moved I am by this. Thank you very, very much. ------------------------------------------------------ In the Sri Lankan > > tradition, when one transfers merit (or does some other meritorious > deed), you are given a coloured string that has been blessed by a > monk. People tie this string around their wrist and it acts as a > condition to cause one to recall the good deed that one has done. I > received a string from Chief Reverend and I asked him to specially > bless another one for you and one for your wife, Rita. Please send > me your snail mail address off-list so that I can send them to you. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I will, indeed, Rob. I can assure you that my wife will be deeply touched by this Rob, and by the extent of your kindness and generosity. (She has not seen your post yet.) -------------------------------------------------------- > You don't have to wear this string, but please put it in a place > where you can see it from time to time (I have one tied around my > rear-view mirror in my car) and reflect on the good things that you > have done and transfer the merit from these good deeds to your > mother-in-law. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Rob, we did do much for my mother-in-law (as she did for us) - out of love, and such a reminder will be a wonderful support and source of strength for both of us. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Howard, I have spent most of the day thinking about your mother-in- > law and, as mentioned in the Bhumija Sutta (Mn126), trying to put > into practice my good intentions. I sincerely hope that it helps. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Thank you, Rob. You are a remarkable person, and I am enormously grateful. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Metta and Karuna, > Rob M :-) > ======================= With very much metta and appreciation, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26856 From: Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Htoo - Thank you for your warm wishes and kind advice. With much metta, Howard In a message dated 11/11/03 9:21:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Howard and family, > > It is a hard time at such particular moment. Anyone of worldly people > will suffer at such a time. To have support at this time is > essential. Could you please give my compassion to all members of your > family. Suffering expands because of spreading mind. > > This spreading mind can be hit away by concentrating mind. I > understand the situation. It is a hard time. Spreading mind helps > angry mind which are grief reactions. To lessen grief reactions, > concentrating mind will help you and your family. > > What should be concentrated at this moment and at such a hard time. > She did such and such good deeds and merit. She deserves such a good > becoming. You and your family are doing good deeds and meritorious > things at this time. May they all go to her. > > Good thoughts will replace negative thoughts such as great loss which > again will thrown away losers' mind and their mind become spreading > mind. As you requested for good thoughts, thoughts about her good > things, thoughts about your actions for her and emotional support of > Acariyas nearby ( (Bhantes ) will all accumulate and will become > concentrating mind. This will ease away greaf reactions. > > May she arise in higher realm. May you and your family feel calm and > do good meritorious deeds for her and may they go to her. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26857 From: sue Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Howard, Thank you for sharing with us the passing of your mother-in-law. My thoughts are with Jeanette, yourself and your family. Metta Sue 26858 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:19am Subject: Re: Worry Hi Andrew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > In my Bhikkhu Bodhi edited Abhidhammattha Sangaha, worry (kukkucca) > is defined as "worry or remorse after having done wrong" (p 84). On > the one hand, I can see that this type of worry is a gross form of > dukkha and fittingly akusala. > On the other hand, it seems to be a good support for shame and fear > of wrongdoing, both beautiful cetasikas. ===== You are correct that worry can be good support for shame and fear of wrongdoing, but they don't arise in the same citta. We have to keep each mind-moment separate. There is one moment with worry with an uncomfortable mental feeling (this is an akusala citta). Following this akusala citta *could* be another mind moment which is wholesome (a kusala citta). All kusala cittas contain shame and fear of wrongdoing. There are two ways in which worry can condition the arising of a kusala citta: - Object condition: When one comprehends by means of insight that worry leads to unhappy states - Natural Decisive Support Condition: When worry motivates one to do good deeds Unfortunately, more often than not, worry is a condition for more dosa-mula cittas; dissatisfaction with the current situation, anger with the person making us worry, etc. A process called mental proliferation (papanca) takes over and akusala "multiplies"; delusion feeds on itself. ===== > Both shame and worry are backward-looking (ie into past events), so > why is one kusala and the other akusala? ===== One of the challenges in dealing with a translated work is that there is rarely a "perfect" translation. For clarity, the commentaries describe each cetasika in terms of its: - characterisitic (main quality, essential property, specific or generic attribute) - Function (performance of a task, achievement of goal) - Manifestation (how it presents itself in an experience, the effect it has) - Proximate Cause (conditions upon which it depends) You are asking the difference between hiri (moral shame / conscience / scruples / modesty) and Kukkucca (remorse / worry / regret / brooding). Here is how hiri is defined: - Characteristic: Disgust at bodily and verbal misconduct - Function: Not doing evil because of modesty - Manifestation: Shrinking from evil because of modesty - Proximate Cause: Self-respect Here is how kukkucca is defined: - Characteristic: Subsequent regret; repentance - Function: Sorrow over what has and what has not been done; sorrow at deeds of commission and omission - Manifestation: Remorse; regret - Proximate Cause: Wrongs of commission and omission; akusala kamma that has been committed and kusala kamma that has been omitted Hopefully, this additional information answers your question. ===== > What about people who do wrong and have no worry or shame at all? Do > such people exist or is it merely that their worry is too fleeting to > be noticed by themselves or other worldlings? ===== All unwholesome states of mind will include Ahirika (shamelessness / lack of moral shame / impudence / no conscience) and kukkucca. I gave the details on kukkucca above; here are the details for ahirika: - Characteristic: Absence of disgust at bodily and verbal misconduct; immodesty - Function: Doing evil things without shame - Manifestation: Not shrinking away from evil - Proximate Cause: Lack of respect for self (Consider that the opposite, moral shame, is internally focused) Hope that the above helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 26859 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:33am Subject: The Second Buddha Discourse Dear Dhamma Friends, The Buddha was in deer park called Isipatana, in Varanasiya, at His first discourse which was delivered to the first five disciples namely Kondanna, Vappa, Bhaddiya, Mahanama, and Assaji. At the end of the discourse Kondanna became a Sotapam. On the next following four days each became a Sotapam on each day. On the 5th waning day of the 4th month of Buddha calendar, The Buddha preached His 2nd discourse called Anattalekkhana Sutta. '' Bhikkhave. '' ( Monks) ' Bhaddante. ' ( Yes, Your Reverence ) Then Bhagava ( The Buddha ) continued His speech: '' Bhikkhave, Rupa are Anatta. If Rupa are Atta, they should not have been sufferings which are unbearable, painful, disturbing, uncontrollable and corruptible by nature. If Rupa are Atta, they should be under control so that it is possible to say ' Let Rupa in such a way and do not let them in that way. As they all are Anatta, they cannot be let so in that way. Rupa are anatta. '' Bhagava continued on next Khandha( aggregates ) of vedana( feelings ), then Sanna ( perceptions ), Sankhara ( mental factors ) and finally on Vinnana ( consciousness ) in the same way. All five disciples were actively listening the second discourse as Atta ( self ) origionally was their traditional view even though they did not have any more Ditthi ( wrong view ) on the 5th day as they were all Sotapams( stream-entrants ). In the mid, Bhagava asked : '' Are Rupa Nicca or Anicca? '' ( Are Rupa permanent or impermanent ? ) ' Anicca, Bhante. ' '' Right. Are such Anicca things Dukkha or Sukha ?'' ' Dukkha, Bhante. ' ( Sufferings , Your reverence ) '' Right. Is it suitable or appropriate to say, ' This is mine. This am I. This is the self for me.' in such impermanent and suffering things ? '' ' Not suitable, Bhante. ' Then The Buddha went on other Khandha of Vedana, Sanna, Sankhara, and Vinnana in the same way by interactive questioning and answering. After 5 disciples answered the questions on Vinnana, The Buddha continued : '' Any Rupa which may be in the past, at the present, in the future, any Rupa which may be inside or outside, gross or delicate, low or lofty, far or near_ all Rupa are not mine, not am I, they are not the self for me. You all have to view on Rupa in such a way with objective, righteous and penetrative wisdom. '' Then, Bhagava continued on Vedana, Sanna, Sankhara, and Vinnana in the same way. All five disciples were joyfully listening to the discourse as they never heard of these matter before. Bhagava went on His preaching : '' So seen, Bhikkhave, the well-learned Noble Disciple disgusts with Rupa, Vedana, Sanna, Sankhara, and Vinnana. So being disgusted he is dispassionate to all those five aggregates.'' '' Through dispassion, he is liberated. He knows that he is liberated and there is no more rebirth. He reaches Holy life. Thus what has to be done has been done. There is nothing further to be done for this Noble Path.'' ( As he becomes an Arahat. ) These are what The Bhagava said and Noble Disciples were delighted and rejoiced at what had been preached by The Buddha. Their minds were freed from the Asava and they became without clinging. At the end of the 2nd discourse, all first five noble disciples became Arahats. The Buddha called '' Ehi Bhikkhu '' and all became the first five members of Arahatta Sangha. Anatta is totally opposite of Atta which was firmly held as a view in those years. The Buddha totally changed the view as He directly discovered without any assistance. May all beings realize Anatta and meditate on Anatta and be able to discard Atta view. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 26860 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Dear James, As so often you make a very good and challenging point here. It should be cleared up, but different opinions are unavoidable. I made a study of this subject, but it is a long study. I am interested in the anapanasati sutta and commentary. The sutta is divided in groups of four, tetrads, as you will see. I will post it again, since not everybody will read what is in the archives. I post here part 2. Part one is an intro to whom the anapanasati sutta was addressed. If Sarah likes me to repeat this one I will. And, Sarah, do you want me to post the following ones as well? It may be too long. Nina. op 10-11-2003 20:30 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Even if one > should choose other meditation objects later on, a good foundation of > mindfulness of breathing is essential for mindfulness in everyday > life. I am thinking more for those members who can be swayed by such > authoritative statements which are simply false. We have a > responsibility beyond ourselves, I think. This issue needs to be > cleared up once and for all if possible. N: We should go back to the first tetrad: (I) Breathing in long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he knows ³I breathe out long². (II) Breathing in short, he knows ³I breathe in short²; or breathing out short, he knows ³I breathe out short². (III) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body². (IV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in tranquillizing the bodily activity²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out tranquillizing the bodily activity², at that time, monks, the monk is faring along contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly conscious (of it), mindful (of it) having put away the covetousness and dejection in the world. I say, monks, that of bodies, this is (a certain) one, that is to say breathing-in and breathing-out. That is why, on that occasion, monks, the monk is faring along contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly conscious (of it), mindful (of it) having put away the covetousness and dejection in the world. In the word commentary to the above quoted sutta the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 223-226) mentions with regard to the first tetrad (group of four clauses, marked I-IV) of the sutta the different stages of insight-knowledge which are developed after emerging from jhåna. We read Vis. 223 < On emerging from the attainment he sees that the in-breaths and out-breaths have the physical body and the mind as their origin; and that just as, when a blacksmith¹s bellows are being blown, the wind moves owing to the bag and to the man¹s appropriate effort, so too, in-breaths and out-breaths are due to the body and the mind. Next he defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the states associated with the consciousness as the immaterial... Having defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition...> The Visuddhimagga then mentions all the different stages of insight (Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 -225). We then read: In the Papancasudani, the Co to the Anapanasati sutta, there is more explanation on rupas which should be objects of awareness after the meditator has emerged from jhana. As we read at the end of the first tetrad, The Commentary explains, this is a certain body, kåya~n~natara: N: Breath is rupa, and it can be understood as such when it appears through the bodysense, at the nosetip or upperlip. It can appear as solidity or motion or temperature. It can be known as only rupa, not my breath, as non-self. Contemplating the Body in the Body: now we go to the Co to Satipatthana Sutta (Middle length Sayings, I, 10, translated by Ven. Soma): As to the words: , this Co explains that the world is the five khandhas. Covetousness stands for sense desire and grief stands for ill will, which are, as the Co states, the principal hindrances. We read: Nina: I heard in a tape that A. Sujin explained that all the different sections in the contemplation of the body are a means to remind us to be aware of rupa we take for my body. We think that we walk, sit or are breathing, but in reality there are nama and rupa. ***** Nina. 26861 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:06am Subject: Vis. Tiika 36, part I. Vis. 36. (b) "Derived materiality" is of twenty-four kinds as eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, visible datum, sound, odour, flavour, feminity faculty, masculinity faculty, life faculty, heart-basis; bodily intimation,verbal intimation; space element; lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, ageing of matter, impermanence of matter, and physical nutriment. Vis. 36. upaadaaruupa.m catuviisatividha.m cakkhu, sota.m, ghaana.m, jivhaa, kaayo, ruupa.m, saddo, gandho, raso, itthindriya.m, purisindriya.m, jiivitindriya.m, hadayavatthu, kaayavi~n~natti, vaciivi~n~natti, aakaasadhaatu, ruupassa lahutaa, ruupassa mudutaa , ruupassa kamma~n~nataa, ruupassa upacayo, ruupassa santati, ruupassa jarataa, ruupassa aniccataa, kaba.liikaaro aahaaroti. Tiika 36, part I: words: catuviisati: twentyfour ga.nana: number paricchedo: division, chapter. bala: strong. pa.tisedhaprohibition, exclusion vattabba=vaditabba: fit to be told aavi: clear, evident. parato: later on adhi.t.thaati: stand on, be fixed on, concentrate on. aaraama (m): delight assadeti: enjoy madhu: honey bya~njana (n):sign, curry. aavi~nchana: picking up. Tiika text 36: (b)Catuviisatividhanti ga.nanaparicchedo balaruupaadiina.m pa.tisedhanattho. As to the expression, of twentyfour kinds, the division in numbers has the meaning of exclusion from the strong material phenomena and so on. Tattha ya.m vattabba.m, ta.m parato aavi bhavissati. Here what is fit to be told will become evident later on. Cakkhatiiti cakkhu, vi~n~naa.naadhi.t.thita.m ruupa.m assaadenta.m viya hotiiti attho. It relishes, thus it is an eye *, the meaning is: it is as it were enjoying the visible object that consciousness is fixed on. Cakkhatiiti hi aya.m cakkhati-saddo ³madhu.m cakkhati, bya~njana.m cakkhatii²ti-aadiisu viya assaadanattho. As to the word relishes, this means enjoyment, just like he enjoys honey, curry and so on. Vutta~nheta.m ³cakkhu.m kho, maaga.n.diya, ruupaaraama.m ruuparata.m ruupasamuditan²ti (ma. ni. 2.209). This was said (M I, 503): ²The eye, Magandiya, delights in visible obejct, is delighted by it, rejoices in it.² A.t.thakathaayampi vuccati ³ruupesu aavi~nchanarasan²ti (visuddhi. 2.433; dha. sa. a.t.tha. 600). It is also said in the Commentary that its function is picking up (an object) among material phenomena. ****** English: As to the expression, of twentyfour kinds, the division in numbers has the meaning of exclusion from the strong material phenomena and so on. Here what is fit to be told will become evident later on. It relishes, thus it is an eye *, the meaning is: it is as it were enjoying the visible object that consciousness is fixed on. As to the word relishes, this means enjoyment, just like he enjoys honey, curry and so on. This was said (M I, 503): ²The eye, Magandiya, delights in visible obejct, is delighted by it, rejoices in it.² It is also said in the Commentary that its function is picking up (an object) among material phenomena. _____ * See Vis. XV, 19. The eye cannot be attached, but this is a figurative way of speaking. 26862 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Howard, I was touched by your message about the passing away of your mother in law, and also by your confidence in kusala. It is very good to ask us for this special kind of mental dana which is sharing our kusala with those who can appreciate it, including departed ones. I shall think of Jeanette when I pay respect to the Triple Gem. All our sympathy to you and your family, also from Lodewijk. How fortunate you could support her so that she was calm. Nina. op 10-11-2003 23:46 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > My wife's mother passed away .... If you are comfortable with doing so, I would greatly appreciate > your > directing thoughts of well being and welfaring to her as she continues. 26863 From: Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Sue - Thank you very much! With warmest metta, Howard In a message dated 11/11/03 11:20:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, sueandwhippets@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Thank you for sharing with us the passing of your mother-in-law. > > My thoughts are with Jeanette, yourself and your family. > > Metta > > Sue > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26864 From: Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Nina - In a message dated 11/11/03 1:11:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard, > I was touched by your message about the passing away of your mother in law, > and also by your confidence in kusala. It is very good to ask us for this > special kind of mental dana which is sharing our kusala with those who can > appreciate it, including departed ones. I shall think of Jeanette when I pay > respect to the Triple Gem. > All our sympathy to you and your family, also from Lodewijk. How fortunate > you could support her so that she was calm. > Nina. ========================== Thank you so much! You and Lodewijk are very sweet people whom I care a great deal about. With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26865 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Worry Hello Andrew, I have joined this discussion list and would like to give my contribution. I think the mix up starts by considering hiri/ottappa as backward looking. If you look at the Abhidhammattha Sangaha on pg 86, it says that hiri/ottappa 'has the function of not doing evil and are manifested as the shrinking away from evil.' Therefore they are very much active prior to commiting any action and not as a reflection on what has already happened. Metta Michael >From: "Andrew" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Worry >Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 05:23:50 -0000 > >Hello all >A big welcome home to all the Myanmar-ites. Great photos! >At the risk of re-activating that "pigs eating dung" thread, I note >that most people feel quite happy about the Dhamma being in line with >commonsense ie good things being kusala and bad things being akusala >etc. >In my Bhikkhu Bodhi edited Abhidhammattha Sangaha, worry (kukkucca) >is defined as "worry or remorse after having done wrong" (p 84). On >the one hand, I can see that this type of worry is a gross form of >dukkha and fittingly akusala. >On the other hand, it seems to be a good support for shame and fear >of wrongdoing, both beautiful cetasikas. >Both shame and worry are backward-looking (ie into past events), so >why is one kusala and the other akusala? >What about people who do wrong and have no worry or shame at all? Do >such people exist or is it merely that their worry is too fleeting to >be noticed by themselves or other worldlings? >Sorry to be a worrywort but any thoughts on the above would be very >soothing. With metta >Andrew > 26866 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Nina, A quick early morning comment to your qu here: --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James, > I will post it again, since not everybody will read what is in the > archives. I post here part 2. Part one is an intro to whom the > anapanasati > sutta was addressed. If Sarah likes me to repeat this one I will. .... I think this is helpful as it discusses the context. This sutta comes up so often and the points are so difficult I find. ... >And, > Sarah, do you want me to post the following ones as well? It may be too > long. .... I think it would be useful. I'd like to consider them again for one. Perhaps if you re-post them every few days so that friends like James and Victor have plenty of time to add any comments/queeries or have any discussion in between, that would be best. I hope as many people as possible join in the thread. They and a few other posts on the topic can be found in UP under 'anapanasati': http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Thanks Nina, Metta, Sarah ======= 26867 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Worry Hi Michael, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > I have joined this discussion list and would like to give my contribution. I > think the mix up starts by considering hiri/ottappa as backward looking. If > you look at the Abhidhammattha Sangaha on pg 86, it says that hiri/ottappa > 'has the function of not doing evil and are manifested as the shrinking away > from evil.' Therefore they are very much active prior to commiting any > action and not as a reflection on what has already happened. Welcome to DSG. Excellent point, Michael. I have not seen any relationship between wholesome vs. unwholesome and "looking backward" vs. "looking forward". In fact, many cetasikas can be applied to the past, present and the future. For example, when dosa is applied to the past, it might be called "guilt". When dosa is applied to the present, it might be called "aversion". When dosa is applied to the future, it might be called "fear". Looking forward to more posts from both Andrew and yourself. Metta, Rob M :-) 26868 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:09pm Subject: Accumulations, Conditions and Anatta - Interesting observation Hi All, A few months ago, Jon's mother passed away. As I recall, at that time, I sent a brief note of condolence. Yesterday, Howard's mother-in-law passed away. I was motivated to do dana, give a talk to a group of notitiates and share the merit. Why the significant difference is the level of activity? The events were similar in nature. My "level of closeness" to the person who passed away was similar in nature. My "level of closeness" to those remaining behind is similar in nature. My carita or "habits" have not changed dramatically in the past few months. After some time of struggling, I accepted that there was no "free will"; the concept of anatta did not allow for a supervisory self making decisions. Now I see reactions arising from accumulations. However, they are MY accumulations and some sense of self remains. I now appreciate that I cannot discount "external conditions" (i.e. nothing to do with ME) as a major factor in determining my actions and by extention, my kamma. I cannot spot any obvious difference in the external conditions but it seems clear that even small differences in external conditions can have a major impact. The Buddha was correct when He said that the detailed workings of kamma were unknowable. Metta, Rob M :-) 26869 From: Andrew Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:23pm Subject: Re Worry Dear Sarah, RobM and Michael Thanks for your excellent posts. I'm now clear on the difference between these cetasikas and how they can interact. I'll keep reading ... Thanks again. Sarah, we would love to visit Asia but have too many commitments at the moment. Sandra was born in Sri Lanka (of Scottish/Aussie parents) and would dearly love to return some day. Metta Andrew 26870 From: Andrew Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:46pm Subject: Re: Buddhism v Psychology --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Julie, Steve and Kevin" wrote: I've been wondering how well > psychology and Buddhism go together. On the surface they look to compliment > each other but the more I look into the Abhidhamma etc, the idea of "self" > awareness (psychology) and awareness (buddhism) seem to contradict. One is > interested in our past and present stories the other is interested in this > utlimate present reality, nothing more, nothing less. Am I on the right > track? Can they compliment each other? What do you think? > > See Ya > Julie Hi Julie Sarah has prompted me to put in my two bob's worth on this one, although I studied ethics/moral philosophy rather than psychology. I think that being a good student means you have to be active in questioning everything. Quite frankly, I found a lot of philosophy to be nonsense simply because it wasn't underpinned by a valid psychological theory. Much of it was written before the advent of modern psychology and just didn't fit with my understanding of how humans work. I resolved my difficulties by placing western ethics into the "conventional world" box - even though many western philosophers considered themselves to be talking about the absolute. By all means, go ahead and study psychology and do some counselling. Keep in mind though that Buddha claimed to have seen things as they really are whereas psychology sees itself as an unfolding of knowledge along the scientific method (so that each new PhD student wants to make his or her mark by modifying existing theory - in contrast to the Dhamma student who sees the Dhamma as complete and in need of understanding, not modification). If you start to muddle the two, this can lead to worry (among other things). Hope that helps. Metta Andrew 26871 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James, > As so often you make a very good and challenging point here. It should be > cleared up, but different opinions are unavoidable. I made a study of this > subject, but it is a long study. Hello Nina, I thank you for your pains to address my point. However, I think that you are bringing in much more information than is necessary to answer this question. My question is very simple: According to the commentaries, is mindfulness of breathing appropriate for most people or only a select few? Since you have obviously studied this sutta and cross referenced its contents with different secondary sources, you should be able to pinpoint the appropriate material or applicable section with ease. Though your scholarship of this subject is exemplarily, I think that presenting all of your compiled information to answer one simple question is going to drown the issue…and again we will back where we started. However, since you do bring it up, I don't agree with a couple of the interpretations found in these commentaries. First, as you probably guessed ;-), I take issue with the concept of `rupa' being associated with this sutta. If the Buddha had wanted the meditator to realize "nama-rupa" he would have said so, there is no reason to put words in his mouth. Not only that, different sections of the commentaries are contracting each other with usage of this term. First the Visuddhimagga explains the sutta section, "Breathing in long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he knows ³I breathe out long²," as "Next he defines the in-breaths and out- breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the states associated with the consciousness as the immaterial...Having defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition.." But then later it is stated in the Visuddhimagga, to explain the recurrent term "Body within the Body", as "Why is the word body used twice in the phrase: Contemplating the body in the body? For determining the object and isolating it, and for sifting out thoroughly of the apparent compact nature of things like continuity (santati). Because there is no contemplation of feeling, citta or dhammas in the body, but just the contemplating of the body only..." So, first we have the body as rupa and then the body isn't rupa, then we have citta in the process and then citta isn't in the process. What exactly is the Visuddhimagga trying to say? My interpretation of this sutta is different. Knowing when the breaths are long or short is just being mindful of the breaths. Staying in the present moment by paying attention to the breaths. Knowing the `body within the body' is being mindful of just the body, as the commentary states, but it is also connecting with the source of Nibbana. The Buddha explained the body within the body clealy in the Rohitassa Sutta: [When this was said, the Blessed One responded:] "I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-045.html This is what I believe the Buddha meant by `knowing the body in the body.' Within this finite bag of skin and bones body that we all occupy there is a fathom long body, an infinite body. That is what we should know. If you don't agree with my interpretation, okay. Metta, James 26872 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hello, I am new in this list and joining here in the middle of the discussion. Sorry if I am off target but David Kalupahana in his book ‘A History of Buddhist Philosophy’ has a chapter dedicated to Buddhaghosa. I will not reproduce here the whole chapter but the following extract reinforces the idea that Buddhaghosa was not a mere ‘complier and translator’ of existing texts in Sinhalese: “If the claim of the faithful followers of the Theriya tradition is that Buddhaghosa did not interpret or add anything to the Theravada, or that he simply summarized the ideas expressed in the original Sinhalese commentaries and translated them into Pali, then these followers cannot claim to be the custodians of the original teachings of the Buddha as embodied in the discourses and in the Abhidhamma, which they themselves have preserved. The reason is that neither the Visuddhimagga (Path of Purification), Buddhaghosa's most significant work, nor the commentaries he compiled on most of the canonical texts preserves the philosophical standpoint we have attributed to the Buddha, to the compilers of the Abhidhamma literature, and even to Moggaloiputta-tissa. This is so because it is not impossible to trace some metaphysical speculations, such as those of the Sarvastivadins, the Sautrantikas, and even the Yogacarins, in the works attributed to Buddhaghosa. What is most significant is that these ideas are introduced in an extremely subtle manner, and that it took a few centuries for them to blossom into full-fledged, openly stated metaphysical positions.” Metta Michael >From: "buddhatrue" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati >Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 09:34:03 -0000 > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" >wrote: > > Hi James, > I believe that a good compiler / tanslator needs to have >subject > > matter expertise. They are constantly faced with questions, "what >is > > the best word to use in this case?", "how to capture the feeling, > > not just the words of the text?", "which ideas to include, which to > > cut out?", "how to handle differences between two texts?". > > > > There is no way that Buddhaghosa could do his job without > > some "interpolation"; but what of extrapolation? > >Hi Rob M., > >I believe that a translation should be as unbiased as possible. That >wouldn't include cutting anything out or deciding how best to >demonstrate the `feeling' of the text. Anyone who considers himself >an `expert' with his own ideas of the subject matter shouldn't be a >translator really; he should be an original author. Unfortunately we >can't know how close Buddhaghosa was to the original texts because as >soon as he was done translating them, they `disappeared'. Sarah >claimed in a previous post (sorry, don't have the number), that they >disappeared because of discontinued use. Now, how likely is that? >Consider this information from the article we have been discussing: > >"In the early decades of the 1st c. BCE in Sri Lanka -- then the hub >of Theravada Buddhist scholarship and monastic training -- several >forces combined that would threaten the continuity of the ancient >oral tradition by which the Pali Tipitaka had been passed down from >one generation of monks to the next. A rebellion against the king and >invasions from south India forced many monks to flee the island. At >the same time a famine of unprecedented proportions descended on the >island for a dozen years. The commentaries recount heroic stories of >monks who, fearing that the treasure of the Tipitaka might forever be >lost, retreated to the relative safety of the south coast, where they >survived only on roots and leaves, reciting the texts amongst >themselves day and night. The continuity of the Tipitaka hung by a >thread: at one point only one monk was able to recite the Niddesa." > >The monks of Sri Lanka worked so hard to preserve the texts, a >history of monks practically starving in that pursuit, and then after >Buddhaghosa translates the commentaries they just `lose' the >originals? I, for one, don't believe that. > >Metta, James > > 26873 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:16pm Subject: Re: Accumulations, Conditions and Anatta - Interesting observation Hi Rob, Where did you get the idea that the concept of anatta did not allow for a supervisory self making decisions? Note that I am not asking whether the concept of anatta allowed for a supervisory self making decisions or not. I don't see how the idea whether there is free will or not relates to the Buddha's teaching. To me it is a philosophical issue. I did a google search on the term "free will" and came across to the following website: THE DETERMINISM AND FREEDOM PHILOSOPHY WEBSITE edited by Ted Honderich http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctytho/dfwIntroIndex.htm For those who are interested in this philosophical issue of free will, this website might be of some interest. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, [snip] 26874 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:30pm Subject: Re: Accumulations, Conditions and Anatta - Interesting observation Hi all, For those who are interested in the philosophy on free will and determinism, the website listings can be found in the Yahoo directory: Philosophy > Free Will and Determinism http://dir.yahoo.com/Arts/Humanities/Philosophy/Free_Will_and_Determi nism/ Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Rob, [snip] 26875 From: Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions and Anatta - Interesting observation Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/11/03 6:13:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@jci. com writes: > > Hi All, > > A few months ago, Jon's mother passed away. As I recall, at that > time, I sent a brief note of condolence. > > Yesterday, Howard's mother-in-law passed away. I was motivated to do > dana, give a talk to a group of notitiates and share the merit. > > Why the significant difference is the level of activity? The events > were similar in nature. My "level of closeness" to the person who > passed away was similar in nature. My "level of closeness" to those > remaining behind is similar in nature. My carita or "habits" have > not changed dramatically in the past few months. > > After some time of struggling, I accepted that there was no "free > will"; the concept of anatta did not allow for a supervisory self > making decisions. Now I see reactions arising from accumulations. > However, they are MY accumulations and some sense of self remains. > > I now appreciate that I cannot discount "external conditions" (i.e. > nothing to do with ME) as a major factor in determining my actions > and by extention, my kamma. I cannot spot any obvious difference in > the external conditions but it seems clear that even small > differences in external conditions can have a major impact. > > The Buddha was correct when He said that the detailed workings of > kamma were unknowable. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > ============================ If anything, one might have expected matters to be just the opposite, it being Jon's *mother*, but "only" my mother-in-law. The difference in response was, as always, multiply conditioned. One clear difference, I think, was the fact that I had specifically *requested* a response (though not so thoroughgoing as your wonderful response), and that request served as a trigger. My request made you think of metta and merit, and when you add to that the recent request by the Reverend for more books, the outcome was close to being assured. No doubt there were other significant inputs to this as well. The mental landscape changes all the time, and the coming together even of conditions which seem to be the relevant ones will not necessarily condition the same event one time as another - seemingly tangential conditions may be determinative. Yes, you are right - small differences, subtle differences, may make all the difference in the world. The net of conditions is so complex that it is often impossible to unravel it, and there are surprises, with small conditions often leveraging large results. And so long as we don't feel the need to compusively know all the answers, this very difficulty in analysis and predictability can make life "interesting"! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26876 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Rob M anumodana for all your kusala. I like this story very much and how you extended kusala for Howard's mother in law, and the special threads as a token of it. Nina. op 11-11-2003 08:27 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > Last year, I printed 1000 copies of Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" > book for free distribution. It was an overwhelming success; demand > far outstripped supply. We recently printed another 2200 copies. The > Chief Reverend at our local temple had asked for more copies to > distribute and so I decided to go to the temple and offer the books > as dana so that I could share the merit with your mother-in-law. > 26877 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Buddhaghosa Dear Rob M The more I read of Buddhaghosa, the more I see how careful he is, often mentioning that this teacher says this, and others say that. He would not gain anything by handling texts in a careless way! Nina. op 11-11-2003 09:29 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > ...However, these > directions for recognizing the temperaments have not been handed > down in their entirety in either the text or commentaries; they are > only expressed according to the opinion of the teachers and cannot > therefore be treated as authentic..." > >> From these two examples, it is seen that Buddhaghosa is careful > about interserting his opinions and clearly identifies his own > opinions when he inserts them. These two examples do not prove that > the whole of Buddhaghosa's writings are free from hidden opinions, > but they do indicate that Buddhaghosa was aware of the problem. 26878 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Buddhaghosa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M > The more I read of Buddhaghosa, the more I see how careful he is, often > mentioning that this teacher says this, and others say that. He would not > gain anything by handling texts in a careless way! > Nina. > op 11-11-2003 09:29 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: Hi Nina, This isn't entirely true. If he was unenlightened, he would gain power and ego gratification by manipulating texts as he saw fit. Metta, James 26879 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:35pm Subject: Back to Buddhaghosa.....;-) Hi James & All, --- buddhatrue wrote: > I believe that a translation should be as unbiased as possible. That > wouldn't include cutting anything out or deciding how best to > demonstrate the `feeling' of the text. Anyone who considers himself > an `expert' with his own ideas of the subject matter shouldn't be a > translator really; he should be an original author. .... At the same time as we see with various modern translations of Pali into English, the translation will be affected by the understanding of the translator, especially when words or phrases can be translated in more than one way. Evidence suggests that Buddhaghosa had very good understanding of the material. Such understanding can only be developed by the eightfold path. ..... > Unfortunately we > can't know how close Buddhaghosa was to the original texts because as > soon as he was done translating them, they `disappeared'. Sarah > claimed in a previous post (sorry, don't have the number), that they > disappeared because of discontinued use. Now, how likely is that? .... Taking my name in vain, eh? ;-) No problem. I don’t think there is any evidence at all about when they ‘disappeared’ and certainly none to suggest this was as soon as he had translated or compiled them into the Pali commentaries. I have no idea, but probably what I said was that there are suggestions (by people who know a LOT more than me) that as Pali became widely used amongst the bhikkhus in particular and as Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga and other commentaries were so enthusiastically accepted by the Sangha (who had memorised and were used to reciting all the Tipitaka and older Sinhalese commentaries), that they became used and recited. Thank you for your inspiring quote here: ..... > "In the early decades of the 1st c. BCE in Sri Lanka -- then the hub > of Theravada Buddhist scholarship and monastic training -- several > forces combined that would threaten the continuity of the ancient > oral tradition by which the Pali Tipitaka had been passed down from > one generation of monks to the next. A rebellion against the king and > invasions from south India forced many monks to flee the island. At > the same time a famine of unprecedented proportions descended on the > island for a dozen years. The commentaries recount heroic stories of > monks who, fearing that the treasure of the Tipitaka might forever be > lost, retreated to the relative safety of the south coast, where they > survived only on roots and leaves, reciting the texts amongst > themselves day and night. The continuity of the Tipitaka hung by a > thread: at one point only one monk was able to recite the Niddesa." .... You wrote: ..... > The monks of Sri Lanka worked so hard to preserve the texts, a > history of monks practically starving in that pursuit, and then after > Buddhaghosa translates the commentaries they just `lose' the > originals? I, for one, don't believe that. .... On the other hand, do you believe that after preserving the texts so carefully that they would allow anything erroneous or anything not exactly according to the commentaries they were so used to reciting to take their place? Similarly, when Buddhaghosa’s commentaries were taken to Burma and other countries to be recited by the wise Theras, I don’t believe there is any evidence of any dispute about them. Instead, they were fully incorporated and recited and recorded at the following Councils. Metta, Sarah ====== 26880 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Michael, Welcome to DSG! In your case, your words preceded you - I appreciated your helpful comments and questions in the thread on the King Milinda passage on ignorance which Nina f/w here. --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello, > > I am new in this list and joining here in the middle of the discussion. > Sorry if I am off target but David Kalupahana in his book ‘A History of > Buddhist Philosophy’ has a chapter dedicated to Buddhaghosa. .... You’re very on target and I’m sure everyone is glad to see your contributions. I’d be glad to see any examples of what D.K. is discussing in the quote you gave. I know next to nothing about the “Sarvastivadins, the Sautrantikas, and even the Yogacarins”, but don’t personally find any conflict or disparity in what is found in Buddhaghosa’s commentaries and the Tipitaka. How about you, do you find any disparity or have any difficulty in accepting the commentaries or Qus of K.Milinda for example? Michael, please share anything else you care to about your interest in the Dhamma, where you live and so on. Obviously you’ve studied and considered carefully. You may also find it useful to use search functions here: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Also, all the archives have been put into a word document for easy scrolling and searching: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Let us know if there’s anything else and please join in any threads (new or old) anytime. What is ‘on target’ to one person, may be ‘off target’ to another;-) Metta, Sarah p.s We ask everyone on DSG to ‘trim’ posts being replied to, though we all forget at times;-) ========================= 26881 From: Julie Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 1:12am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Buddhism v Psychology - Andrew Hi Andrew, Thanks for your response. Much appreciated! Bye Julie 26882 From: Julie Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 1:12am Subject: RE: [dsg] RE: Buddhism v Psychology - Sarah Hiya Sarah, >Not sure if this ramble helps. No such thing! It was wonderful.... Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's given me something to think about, again :). I don't think I can take much more... DSG is really straining my brain!!!! See Ya Julie 26883 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:49am Subject: Karuna - not bearing others' suffering Hi RobM, (I've lost the other thread) We were discussing the function of compassion as ‘not bearing others’ suffering’ (Vism 1X,94). I suggested this was >a literal translation. (??maybe dhara - bearing, holding - ***** Soon after, I noticed that the same word I was thinking of came up in a Vism thread on the primary rupas: “But without differentiation they are elements (dhaatu) beacuse of bearing (dhaara.na) their own characteristics, because of grasping (aadaana) suffering, and because of sorting out (aadhaana) suffering (see Ch. XV, 19). (29) This is how they should be given attention as to word meaning.” Dhaara.na - bearing, holding, supporting. So compassion doesn’t ‘bear, hold or support’ others suffering in the sense of wishing to remove it. Any comments welcome! (I'm just assuming it's the same word used). Metta, Sarah ===== 26884 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Sukin, Christine, Shakti & All, Your good comments, Sukin, reminded me of a discussion we had in Myanmar which I think also relates to Christine’s qu about K.Sujin’s comments on death to the visiting Myanmar friend: --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > However, I would like to mention here with regard to my impression > of Abhidhamma that its study deals with "present realities". And > this I think, is more important that anything else. It does not > matter what the labels are used, as long as they lead to `what can > be observed in the moment'. <..> .... I agree of course;-) As we sat in the Palace grounds in Mandalay, we were reminded that Dhamma, Abhidhamma, paramattha dhammas, are just this moment of seeing or thinking or other present realities which can be known. When Sariputta heard the lines about conditioned realities, there were conditions then and there for the wisdom to arise to really appreciate the meaning with sufficient detachment. It really is the path of the wearing away and eradication of attachment. (If you remember, this was the occasion we also talked about helping children and loved ones). ..... >I get the impression increasingly, that to think in terms > of `doing' something for future results would be from `wrong > thinking', `misdirected thoughts'. .... In the same discussion, we were reminded that when we think about ‘what shall I do....’ there is thinking and no awareness. It indicates the clinging to self again. ‘The idea of self is so very deeply rooted’. We asked questions about death which again indicated the ‘wanting’ and ‘clinging’ instead of present awareness. K.Sujin reminded us that the moment of death is just like a moment of bhavanga citta now or in deep sleep. The object can’t be known and there’s nothing to be afraid of when one understands this. We experience pain countless times in a day, but usually it’s followed by seeing or hearing. Pain can condition death, however, at anytime. Awareness now can condition awareness in future, but without having any expectations about it. Otherwise it’s bound to be more attachment. <..> > There is *no* other way. However > there is no self who decides to `apply' or `let go' of theory. > Lobha is so pervasive and the `self' seeks results, and in the > process it is attracted by what `seems' to work and is > within `self's' reach. <..> Lots of wise comments, Sukin (mostly snipped). Chris, please don’t think anyone is ever telling you what you should know or understand or accept. Only panna (rt understanding) can ever do that. All we can do here (or in person) is to share reminders about what we find helpful and open these up for further consideration or reflection. There’s never any need to agree with what any of us say. What do you think? Metta, Sarah ======= 26885 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:16am Subject: Sariputta's mother Dear Friends, In my last post, I wrote: > Sariputta heard the lines about conditioned realities, there were > conditions then and there for the wisdom to arise to really appreciate > the meaning with sufficient detachment. It really is the path of the >wearing away and eradication of attachment. (If you remember, this >was the occasion we also talked about helping children and loved ones). ..... As I was writing these lines, Jon was walking after work and listening to a friend (K. Unop, Thai series) talking about Sariputta’s mother and her total lack of interest in the Buddha’s teaching, in spite of being the mother of seven sons who had all become arahants. Instead she worshipped Brahma and followed wrong practices, having no interest in listening to her sons at all and no respect for the Sangha. Details can be found at these links: http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/sa/saariputta.htm http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/r/rupasari.htm Here are a few snippets which match the account Jon just told me: “Once when Sáriputta visited her with five hundred monks, among whom was Ráhula, she invited them in and gave them food, but did not fail to abuse her son, calling him "eater of leavings" (ucchitthakhádaka) (DhA.iv.164f).” Only when Sariputta knew he would soon realize Parinibbana, he realized there would be an opportunity for he, himself, to help her, so after paying his final respects to the Buddha and giving a sermon, a “Lion’s Roar’, he went back to his home village with a large following and to the house where he had been born. “He sent word to warn his mother of his arrival with a large number of people. She, thinking that he had once more returned to the lay life, made all preparations to welcome him and his companions. Sáriputta took up his abode in the room in which he was born (játovaraka). There he was afflicted with dysentery. His mother, unaware of this and sulking because she found he was still a monk, remained in her room. The Four Regent Gods and Sakka and Mahá Brahmá waited upon him. ” <......> “Learning their identity from Mahá Cunda, she was amazed and went to see Sáriputta to have Mahá Cunda's words confirmed. Sáriputta told her how Mahá Brahmá was a follower of the Buddha and talked to her about the marvellous virtues of his teacher. At the end of his talk, she became a sotápanna. Sáriputta died the next day at dawn, and she made elaborate arrangements for his cremation (SA.iii.172ff.; for details see Sáriputta).” The links give further reference details. She must have been a very old lady and if it were not for Sariputta’s powers to know exactly the right conditions for her at that time to be able to listen, including her amazement that Sakka, Brahma and other Gods listened too, she would have remained a wordling clinging to wrong views and practices. As we sat on the wooden deck in the palace grounds we were reminded to develop awareness of the present thinking and mental states when we had ideas and stories about helping loved ones. They have their accumulations which we can’t change. It depends on so many factors whether there is any wise attention or understanding at this moment as we read and reflect and so it is for others too. Metta, Sarah ====== 26886 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:33am Subject: RE: [dsg] RE: Buddhism v Psychology - Sarah H Julie, --- Julie wrote: > > >Not sure if this ramble helps. > > No such thing! It was wonderful.... Thanks for sharing your thoughts. > It's > given me something to think about, again :) .... thx for the feedback. .... I don't think I can take > much > more... DSG is really straining my brain!!!! .... ;-) Just ignore anything too technical or brain-straining for now. Hope you, Lyn and others in your group let us know how your meetings and Abhidhamma study is going from time to time. Metta, Sarah ======= 26887 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:35am Subject: Re: Back to Buddhaghosa.....;-) Hi Sarah, --- buddhatrue wrote: > I believe that a translation should be as unbiased as possible. That > wouldn't include cutting anything out or deciding how best to > demonstrate the `feeling' of the text. Anyone who considers himself > an `expert' with his own ideas of the subject matter shouldn't be a > translator really; he should be an original author. .... At the same time as we see with various modern translations of Pali into English, the translation will be affected by the understanding of the translator, especially when words or phrases can be translated in more than one way. Evidence suggests that Buddhaghosa had very good understanding of the material. Such understanding can only be developed by the eightfold path. James: Well, we are starting to get into a side issue here. As Michael's quote pointed out, excellent quote BTW, Buddhaghosa wasn't just a translator and compiler, he was an author. Personally, I believe that knowledge of the subject matter is necessary, of course, but more important than that is knowledge of language. Too much knowledge of the subject can be a hindrance because then personal opinion can be inserted into the translation. Some scholarly research points to this, as Michael's quote states. It seems that you are not going to believe this until there is some sort of huge expose on Buddhaghosa. Frankly, that isn't going to happen. His commentaries are really not that important to mainstream Buddhists, only fringe groups. Few want to spend a lot of time researching and exposing the inconsistencies of his writings because few really care. I just discuss Buddhaghosa as a passing fancy; I don't have an axe to grind. But I don't mind going "Back to Buddhaghosa...;-)" as the situation arises. > Unfortunately we > can't know how close Buddhaghosa was to the original texts because as > soon as he was done translating them, they `disappeared'. Sarah > claimed in a previous post (sorry, don't have the number), that they > disappeared because of discontinued use. Now, how likely is that? .... Taking my name in vain, eh? ;-) No problem. James: No, I am not taking you name in vain! ;-) I do remember that conversation and I believe that is what you said. Did I paraphrase you incorrectly? Do you not appreciate me referring to you in posts to other people? If so I won't do it again. I don't think there is any evidence at all about when they `disappeared' and certainly none to suggest this was as soon as he had translated or compiled them into the Pali commentaries. I have no idea, but probably what I said was that there are suggestions (by people who know a LOT more than me) that as Pali became widely used amongst the bhikkhus in particular and as Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga and other commentaries were so enthusiastically accepted by the Sangha (who had memorised and were used to reciting all the Tipitaka and older Sinhalese commentaries), that they became used and recited. James: I didn't really mean to imply that as soon as he got done translating he threw the originals away. I don't think that happened; it would have been far too obvious. However, I do believe that there was pressure at some later date to discard the originals. Important, historical documents like that don't just get lost on their own. (See my last comment). Thank you for your inspiring quote here: ..... > "In the early decades of the 1st c. BCE in Sri Lanka -- then the hub > of Theravada Buddhist scholarship and monastic training -- several > forces combined that would threaten the continuity of the ancient > oral tradition by which the Pali Tipitaka had been passed down from > one generation of monks to the next. A rebellion against the king and > invasions from south India forced many monks to flee the island. At > the same time a famine of unprecedented proportions descended on the > island for a dozen years. The commentaries recount heroic stories of > monks who, fearing that the treasure of the Tipitaka might forever be > lost, retreated to the relative safety of the south coast, where they > survived only on roots and leaves, reciting the texts amongst > themselves day and night. The continuity of the Tipitaka hung by a > thread: at one point only one monk was able to recite the Niddesa." .... You wrote: ..... > The monks of Sri Lanka worked so hard to preserve the texts, a > history of monks practically starving in that pursuit, and then after > Buddhaghosa translates the commentaries they just `lose' the > originals? I, for one, don't believe that. .... On the other hand, do you believe that after preserving the texts so carefully that they would allow anything erroneous or anything not exactly according to the commentaries they were so used to reciting to take their place? James: Yes, most definitely. Sarah, you seem to have an idealized notion of what monk sanghas are like. I have worked very closely with my temple- preparing tax paperwork, securing scholarships for monks, helping with residency visas and legal issues- and so I know that sanghas are just as political as any government or business institution. There is no reason to believe it was any different in Buddhaghosa's time. If someone with a lot of prestige and power, like Buddhaghosa, shows up and says that things are going to change and that this is the way they are going to change, there aren't going to be any disputes about that. Ask Jon, didn't he used to be a monk? He will tell you how it is. Similarly, when Buddhaghosa's commentaries were taken to Burma and other countries to be recited by the wise Theras, I don't believe there is any evidence of any dispute about them. Instead, they were fully incorporated and recited and recorded at the following Councils. Metta, Sarah ====== Metta, James 26888 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Dear Rob M., there were also many moments of vipaka, seeing, hearing. Your feeling unwell, and then reading Howard's post. The Reverend asked you to give a talk on Abhidhamma, and you spoke about accumulations. There were wholesome reactions to different vipakas. Conditions are most intricate. It is most helpful that you spoke about the events that happened as an illustration. Then people can appreciate that the Abhidhamma is not theory at all. I hope you will continue bringing in such examples! Sarah mentioned your car clash with another car and that you handed to the driver one of the Dhamma disks that you had made. Another illustration. You wrote before that you intended to develop all ten akusala kamma pathas for the next three months. I was wondering, how can Rob plan it that way? And see, in one day you had the opportunity for all ten!! You had made the good intention. Also telling others is a way of dana, giving us the opportunity to rejoice. Howard and his family must feel happy now, inspite of their loss. Could you perhaps invite A. Sujin to Singapore? I wish I could join. With appreciation, Nina. op 12-11-2003 00:09 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > I now appreciate that I cannot discount "external conditions" (i.e. > nothing to do with ME) as a major factor in determining my actions > and by extention, my kamma..... > The Buddha was correct when He said that the detailed workings of > kamma were unknowable. 26889 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Dear Michael, does Kalupahana give examples of Buddhaghosa where we can see that other ideas were introduced? Nina. op 11-11-2003 22:52 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > This is so because it is not impossible to > trace some metaphysical speculations, such as those of the Sarvastivadins, > the Sautrantikas, and even the Yogacarins, in the works attributed to > Buddhaghosa. What is most significant is that these ideas are introduced in > an extremely subtle manner, and that it took a few centuries for them to > blossom into full-fledged, openly stated metaphysical positions. 26890 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nissaya text : To Nina Dear Suan, op 11-11-2003 15:05 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > When I wrote a sample Nissaya text on the Pali passage you gave, I > did so without a chance to consult the existing Nissaya texts on > Vissudhumaggo. > This morning (11-11-2003), I checked N(y)aa.namoli's "Path Of > Purification" and noticed that he did not translate "Ayam pana > vitthaaro". And he translated "yam" as "when" clause (as > though "yasmim" clause), and separately translated "ettha" as "here" > adverb later. > I find that translation of "yam taava vuttam" as "where" clause gives > us neat and natural English. And fewer words because the "where" > clause takes care of "ettha" ("here" adverb). N: Yes I also noticed that Nyanamoli did not translate ayam pana vitthaaro. I want to reflect more on this text. In the Nyanamoli text bhumi is translated as soil: in the preceding para: he should Soil: a foundation. The bhuumi that is enumerated are many things in a specific order, beginning with the khandhas. It ends with the pa.ticcasamuppaadaa. Because this is the essence, release from the cycle? Bhuumi could be both soil, foundation and field of understanding, that is, the objects of which understanding should be developed. Nina. 26891 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Worry Hi Michael, Welcome to this group. I hope you will find it useful. I think also after committing evil, you can regret and then have the wholesome shame. You realize what you have done. You make the intention not to do this evil again, with shame and fear in the wholesome way.Cittas change all the time, then kusala, then akusala, etc. Thus, it all depends on the citta that arises. Nina. op 11-11-2003 19:39 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > Hello Andrew, > > I have joined this discussion list and would like to give my contribution. I > think the mix up starts by considering hiri/ottappa as backward looking. If > you look at the Abhidhammattha Sangaha on pg 86, it says that hiri/ottappa > 'has the function of not doing evil and are manifested as the shrinking away > from evil.' Therefore they are very much active prior to commiting any > action and not as a reflection on what has already happened. 26892 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Dear James, Early morning I read your post with the beautiful sutta. Good reflection during breakfast and in the swimming pool. For a long time we were looking at far horizons to the beyond, always wanting something else and forgetting what is right at hand! Let us first go into the sutta. op 12-11-2003 00:57 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: The Buddha explained the body within the body clearly in > the Rohitassa Sutta: > > [When this was said, the Blessed One responded:] "I tell you, friend, > that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far > end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, > or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making > an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. > Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & > intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination > of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice > leading to the cessation of the cosmos." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-045.html > > This is what I believe the Buddha meant by `knowing the body in the > body.' Within this finite bag of skin and bones body that we all > occupy there is a fathom long body, an infinite body. That is what > we should know. N: I do not see it as an infinite body. The Buddha says, with its perceptions and thoughts, and here are all five aggregates included. The aggregates arise because of conditions. So long as there is ignorance there is rebirth, the arising of the aggregates. The world: another word for the five aggregates. See Kindred Sayings (IV, Second Fifty, Ch IV, § 82)The world: the Buddha was asked what the world is; We should develop understanding of the five aggregates so that ignorance is eradicated and we reach the end of the world, no more rebirth. Now I look at the Co I have in Thai. It stresses a few points of the sutta. The Ill is the Ill of being in the cycle. The origination of the world etc. here the Buddha explained the four noble Truths. The world is the Truth of suffering (dukkha). The end is the cessation (nibbana) and the practice is the Path. In the verse it is said, <...Knowing the world's end by becoming calmed, He longs not for this world or another.> Co states for calmed: calmed, freed from what is evil. Thus, this refers to the arahat who has eradicated all that is evil. The highest calm. J: My question is very simple: According to the > commentaries, is mindfulness of breathing appropriate for most people > or only a select few? .... I take issue with the concept of `rupa' being associated > with this sutta. If the Buddha had wanted the meditator to > realize "nama-rupa" he would have said so, there is no reason to put > words in his mouth. N:We need patience to study this sutta carefully. If we only look at the beginning we may miss the point. Before the Buddha's enlightenment people pratised mindfulness of Breath. The Buddha added a new dimension. People should realize the three characteristics of all conditioned phenomena, including breath. They should reach the end of the world! The body consists of different material elements which do not last at all. Evenso what we call mind are many different mental moments. These do not last. When we see them as a whole we will not know their true characteristics. J: First the Visuddhimagga explains the sutta section, "Breathing in > long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he knows > ³I breathe out long²," as "Next he defines the in-breaths and out- > breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the > states associated with the consciousness as the immaterial...Having > defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition.." But then > later it is stated in the Visuddhimagga, to explain the recurrent > term "Body within the Body", as "Why is the word body used twice in > the phrase: Contemplating the body in the body? For determining the > object and isolating it, and for sifting out thoroughly of the > apparent compact nature of things like continuity (santati). Because there is no contemplation of feeling, citta or dhammas in the > body, but just the contemplating of the body only..." N: He contemplates bodily phenomena, and not at the same time mental phenomena. He learns that what he takes for "My important body" are only fleeting material phenomena. J:So, first we > have the body as rupa and then the body isn't rupa, then we have > citta in the process and then citta isn't in the process. What > exactly is the Visuddhimagga trying to say? N: See above. The aggregate of materiality includes all material phenomena, and thus also all phenomena that constitutes the body. I do not see any contradiction. J: My interpretation of this sutta is different. Knowing when the > breaths are long or short is just being mindful of the breaths. > Staying in the present moment by paying attention to the breaths. > Knowing the `body within the body' is being mindful of just the body, > as the commentary states, but it is also connecting with the source > of Nibbana. N: Understanding of both mental phenomena and material phenomena has to be developed gradually. Not just bodily phenomena. That is the way to attain nibbana. Thus, when we are mindful of breath we have to scrutinize ourselves: what is our mind like at such a moment? Do we take breath for my breath? Do we cling to breath? Then we do not follow what the Buddha taught: see conditioned phenomena as impermanent, dukkha and non-self. Mind is different all the time and we have to study it with great patience. Nina. 26893 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati James, I will jump into this discussion if you don’t mind. I can recall Bhante Gunaratana mentioning that ‘the body within the body’ is simply referring to the breath. The breath is a body, the breath-body, which takes place within another body. I don’t fully agree with your reading of the Rohitassa Sutta. The sutta mentions that the cosmos is within the body but also perception & intelect which is an indication of nama-rupa, and that would make more sense, i.e. the world or cosmos, within the context of the teachings, is nama-rupa. Metta Michael >From: "buddhatrue" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati >Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 23:57:45 -0000 > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom >wrote: > > Dear James, > > As so often you make a very good and challenging point here. It >should be > > cleared up, but different opinions are unavoidable. I made a study >of this > > subject, but it is a long study. > >Hello Nina, > >I thank you for your pains to address my point. However, I think >that you are bringing in much more information than is necessary to >answer this question. My question is very simple: According to the >commentaries, is mindfulness of breathing appropriate for most people >or only a select few? Since you have obviously studied this sutta >and cross referenced its contents with different secondary sources, >you should be able to pinpoint the appropriate material or applicable >section with ease. Though your scholarship of this subject is >exemplarily, I think that presenting all of your compiled information >to answer one simple question is going to drown the issue…and again >we will back where we started. > >However, since you do bring it up, I don't agree with a couple of the >interpretations found in these commentaries. First, as you probably >guessed ;-), I take issue with the concept of `rupa' being associated >with this sutta. If the Buddha had wanted the meditator to >realize "nama-rupa" he would have said so, there is no reason to put >words in his mouth. Not only that, different sections of the >commentaries are contracting each other with usage of this term. >First the Visuddhimagga explains the sutta section, "Breathing in >long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he knows >³I breathe out long²," as "Next he defines the in-breaths and out- >breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the >states associated with the consciousness as the immaterial...Having >defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition.." But then >later it is stated in the Visuddhimagga, to explain the recurrent >term "Body within the Body", as "Why is the word body used twice in >the phrase: Contemplating the body in the body? For determining the >object and isolating it, and for sifting out thoroughly of the >apparent compact nature of things like continuity (santati). >Because there is no contemplation of feeling, citta or dhammas in the >body, but just the contemplating of the body only..." So, first we >have the body as rupa and then the body isn't rupa, then we have >citta in the process and then citta isn't in the process. What >exactly is the Visuddhimagga trying to say? > >My interpretation of this sutta is different. Knowing when the >breaths are long or short is just being mindful of the breaths. >Staying in the present moment by paying attention to the breaths. >Knowing the `body within the body' is being mindful of just the body, >as the commentary states, but it is also connecting with the source >of Nibbana. The Buddha explained the body within the body clealy in >the Rohitassa Sutta: > >[When this was said, the Blessed One responded:] "I tell you, friend, >that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far >end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, >or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making >an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. >Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & >intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination >of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice >leading to the cessation of the cosmos." >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-045.html > >This is what I believe the Buddha meant by `knowing the body in the >body.' Within this finite bag of skin and bones body that we all >occupy there is a fathom long body, an infinite body. That is what >we should know. If you don't agree with my interpretation, okay. > >Metta, James 26894 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Sarah, Thank you for your kind words of welcome. Just so that people know who they are talking to I will give a brief introduction about myself. For the last 3 years I have been living in Atlanta, GA/USA. I was born in Germany but grew up and spent most of my life in Brazil. To be more precise in São Paulo. In the last 15 years though I have lived most of the time out of Brazil due to work. Currently I am retired and fully dedicated to the Dhamma. My interest in Buddhism started about 10 years ago and gradually has increased over the years. About 3 years ago I started a web site with sutta and essays translation to Portuguese. My source of inspiration was the Access to Insight web site. I started translating the texts available at that web site. I like to believe that my translations have improved over time with my level of understanding. Anyway the feedback I get from readers is very encouraging. I am slowly starting to think about learning Pali for real and just a few days ago received the Bhavana News and next year Bhante Gunaratana will conduct a 10 day seminar to teach Pali. That could well be the kick start I need. I would love to live in a Theravada country to enjoy Buddhism from the inside but currently am bound to the place I live by my son who is still a freshman in high school. But after he gets to college I hope that wish will materialize. Going back to our conversation, I have to say that I am not that familiar with the writings of Buddhaghosa. It’s funny because the Visuddhimagga was one of the very first books I bought on Theravada Buddhism but never came around to really read and study. I have only occasionally browsed through it. But one of the critics raised by DK in his book is the use by Buddhaghosa of essencialist perspectives which cannot be traced back to the original scriptures of the Canon. Metta Michael >From: Sarah >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:57:11 +0800 (CST) > >Hi Michael, > >Welcome to DSG! In your case, your words preceded you - I appreciated your >helpful comments and questions in the thread on the King Milinda passage >on ignorance which Nina f/w here. > > --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello, > > > > I am new in this list and joining here in the middle of the discussion. > > Sorry if I am off target but David Kalupahana in his book ‘A History of > > Buddhist Philosophy’ has a chapter dedicated to Buddhaghosa. >.... >You’re very on target and I’m sure everyone is glad to see your >contributions. I’d be glad to see any examples of what D.K. is discussing >in the quote you gave. I know next to nothing about the “Sarvastivadins, >the Sautrantikas, and even the Yogacarins”, but don’t personally find any >conflict or disparity in what is found in Buddhaghosa’s commentaries and >the Tipitaka. How about you, do you find any disparity or have any >difficulty in accepting the commentaries or Qus of K.Milinda for example? > >Michael, please share anything else you care to about your interest in the >Dhamma, where you live and so on. Obviously you’ve studied and considered >carefully. > >You may also find it useful to use search functions here: >http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ >Also, all the archives have been put into a word document for easy >scrolling and searching: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ > >Let us know if there’s anything else and please join in any threads (new >or old) anytime. What is ‘on target’ to one person, may be ‘off target’ to >another;-) > >Metta, > >Sarah > >p.s We ask everyone on DSG to ‘trim’ posts being replied to, though we all >forget at times;-) >========================= 26895 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 0:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Michael, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > James, > > I will jump into this discussion if you don't mind. I can recall Bhante > Gunaratana mentioning that `the body within the body' is simply referring to > the breath. The breath is a body, the breath-body, which takes place within > another body. James: I would agree with that interpretation also. I don't think that his interpretation and mine contradict each other. It can be the body-body, breath-body, and cosmos-body. They are all included. > > I don't fully agree with your reading of the Rohitassa Sutta. The sutta > mentions that the cosmos is within the body but also perception & intelect > which is an indication of nama-rupa, and that would make more sense, i.e. > the world or cosmos, within the context of the teachings, is nama- rupa. James: First of all, nama-rupa isn't part of the Buddha's teachings. If you will get that idea out of your head right from the start, you will understand where I am coming from. When the Buddha said cosmos he meant just that: the cosmos (space, planets, and stars, etc.). He didn't mean a code word for nama-rupa. Why do you assume that. You know, reading the commentaries, one would think that the Buddha never really meant what he said, there was always some hidden meaning to what he said. He said that within this fathom-long body is intellect, of course, but there is also the cosmos. How is the entire cosmos within your body? Meditate and you will get a glimpse. Become enlightened and you will know first hand. > > Metta > Michael > > Metta, James 26896 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 0:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James, > Early morning I read your post with the beautiful sutta. Good reflection > during breakfast and in the swimming pool. For a long time we were looking > at far horizons to the beyond, always wanting something else and forgetting > what is right at hand! Let us first go into the sutta. > op 12-11-2003 00:57 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > The Buddha explained the body within the body clearly in > > the Rohitassa Sutta: > > > > [When this was said, the Blessed One responded:] "I tell you, friend, > > that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far > > end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, > > or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making > > an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. > > Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & > > intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination > > of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice > > leading to the cessation of the cosmos." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-045.html > > > > This is what I believe the Buddha meant by `knowing the body in the > > body.' Within this finite bag of skin and bones body that we all > > occupy there is a fathom long body, an infinite body. That is what > > we should know. > N: I do not see it as an infinite body. The Buddha says, with its > perceptions and thoughts, and here are all five aggregates included. James: Nina, the words "fathom" and "cosmos" are both variations of infinity. If you can't see what is plainly obvious in this sutta, I am not going to be able to show you over the Internet. This is a matter we would have to discuss face to face. The > aggregates arise because of conditions. So long as there is ignorance there > is rebirth, the arising of the aggregates. The world: another word for the > five aggregates. See Kindred Sayings (IV, Second Fifty, Ch IV, § 82) The > world: the Buddha was asked what the world is; Therefore it is called "the world". What crumbles away? The > eye...objects...eye-consciousness...> > We should develop understanding of the five aggregates so that ignorance is > eradicated and we reach the end of the world, no more rebirth. > Now I look at the Co I have in Thai. It stresses a few points of the sutta. > The Ill is the Ill of being in the cycle. The origination of the world etc. > here the Buddha explained the four noble Truths. The world is the Truth of > suffering (dukkha). The end is the cessation (nibbana) and the practice is > the Path. In the verse it is said, <...Knowing the world's end by becoming > calmed, He longs not for this world or another.> > Co states for calmed: calmed, freed from what is evil. Thus, this refers to > the arahat who has eradicated all that is evil. The highest calm. > J: My question is very simple: According to the > > commentaries, is mindfulness of breathing appropriate for most people > > or only a select few? .... > I take issue with the concept of `rupa' being associated > > with this sutta. If the Buddha had wanted the meditator to > > realize "nama-rupa" he would have said so, there is no reason to put > > words in his mouth. > N:We need patience to study this sutta carefully. If we only look at the > beginning we may miss the point. Before the Buddha's enlightenment people > pratised mindfulness of Breath. The Buddha added a new dimension. People > should realize the three characteristics of all conditioned phenomena, > including breath. They should reach the end of the world! > The body consists of different material elements which do not last at all. > Evenso what we call mind are many different mental moments. These do not > last. When we see them as a whole we will not know their true > characteristics. James: You say a lot here without answering the question. Did the Buddha expound on extraneous matters when he was asked a question and then tell the questioner to be 'patient'? No, he answered whatever question presented to him simply and directly...so much so that his answers were celebrated. Please give me a direct answer, so that I may celebrate. > J: First the Visuddhimagga explains the sutta section, "Breathing in > > long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he knows > > ³I breathe out long²," as "Next he defines the in-breaths and out- > > breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the > > states associated with the consciousness as the immaterial...Having > > defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition.." But then > > later it is stated in the Visuddhimagga, to explain the recurrent > > term "Body within the Body", as "Why is the word body used twice in > > the phrase: Contemplating the body in the body? For determining the > > object and isolating it, and for sifting out thoroughly of the > > apparent compact nature of things like continuity (santati). > Because there is no contemplation of feeling, citta or dhammas in the > > body, but just the contemplating of the body only..." > > N: He contemplates bodily phenomena, and not at the same time mental > phenomena. He learns that what he takes for "My important body" are only > fleeting material phenomena. > > J:So, first we > > have the body as rupa and then the body isn't rupa, then we have > > citta in the process and then citta isn't in the process. What > > exactly is the Visuddhimagga trying to say? > N: See above. The aggregate of materiality includes all material phenomena, > and thus also all phenomena that constitutes the body. I do not see any > contradiction. James: My point is that you cannont contemplate bodily phenomena without also contemplating mental phenomena. They go hand in hand and are codependent. The commentary doesn't make this obvious, it presents the subject as if one is supposed to 'be able to have his cake and eat it too', in other words to keep them seperate and then together somehow. That is the contradiction I am pointing to. > J: My interpretation of this sutta is different. Knowing when the > > breaths are long or short is just being mindful of the breaths. > > Staying in the present moment by paying attention to the breaths. > > Knowing the `body within the body' is being mindful of just the body, > > as the commentary states, but it is also connecting with the source > > of Nibbana. > N: Understanding of both mental phenomena and material phenomena has to be > developed gradually. Not just bodily phenomena. That is the way to attain > nibbana. Thus, when we are mindful of breath we have to scrutinize > ourselves: what is our mind like at such a moment? Do we take breath for my > breath? Do we cling to breath? Then we do not follow what the Buddha taught: > see conditioned phenomena as impermanent, dukkha and non-self. Mind is > different all the time and we have to study it with great patience. > Nina. Metta, James 26897 From: Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:05am Subject: New member, Jeff Brooks "The bird has its nest, and the dog has its den, but the soul of man has no place to rest." Hello my name is Jeff Brooks and I am relatively new to your list. Quite a few people have asked me to explain who I am and how I have arrived at my understanding of meditation, the absorption states they produce, and the various charisms that accompany those states. I have posted this rather lengthy history and description of my contemplative experience for the members of this list to examine in the hope that it will shed some light on your own experiences, as well as to answer some basic questions about my personal journey. You will see that I have had many influences. Please excuse my rather long story. I should really begin with the proto-contemplative part of my life. That is my dream world. As a child I had a very rich and lucid dream world that I enjoyed pretty much everyday. And, therefore it should not be surprising that my earliest memory is of a lucid dream I had in my crib at about 18 months of age . One of the common themes in my lucid dream-space was annihilation in a flash of white light. At the time I associated those dreams with the Cold War and the nuclear threat. When I was an adolescent I began to have what appeared to be a shift in those lucid dreams, in which I would not notice the passage into sleep. At that time I began to have either paralysis dreams, engulfment by a terrifying blackness, or I would find myself falling or whirling madly across the landscape. At the time these dreams were very frequent and they worried me. I now realize that they were proto-out-of-body experiences, but there was no conversation in my world about out-of-body experiences, so at the time I had no idea out-of-body experiences were even possible. At about the age of 20 I began journaling my dream-world which I still do today. I am certain that this journaling practice contributed to an increasing awareness of my dream state, and thus being at least a partial cause to my out-of-body experiences. That same year I happened to visit an old woman who had at one time been a boarder in my mother's house. Since that year she spent with us, in 1959, she became my surrogate grandmother. She happened to be health conscious and an amateur homeopath as well. It was her rather unique lifestyle and subsequent health, dedication to a spiritual life, and positive outlook that inspired me to follow in her footsteps. In conversation with her that year I happened to tell her I thought I was going crazy because of the frequent "weird" dreams I was having. After I described some of them to her, she said, "Oh dear. You are just having out-of-body experiences." She then explained to me the process of the out-of-body experience, and, as far fetched as it may sound, she revealed to me that she was a crypto-Coptic Christian who had been initiated into out-of-body travel in the 30s by an Egyptian immigrant. She then initiated me also into the same tradition. Over the next few months she instructed me in out-of-body practices, and in about 3 months I had mastered the experience to the point I could leave my body at will, and I did so several times a day. I found I could fly any where and any when I wanted to. That included different planets and solar systems as well. That same year I attended a Silva Mind Control workshop and a year later I attended the advanced Silva Mind Control course taught by Jose Silva himself. For me, Silva Mind Control filled in some of the gaps in the Cotpic out-of-body work I was doing with Francis. In 1973 I also began a twice a day meditation practice, that I am sure empowered me to accomplish the mastery I achieved in out-of-body travel so quickly. Now that 30 years have past, my daily meditation practice has become Three one to two hour sessions a day. And, as a product of that practice I have been experiencing a series of subjective experiences that I have not been able to find anyone to explain with satisfaction. I have however found a reasonable correlation in the literature of the Pali canon and various Hindu scriptures. These subjective experiences have produced regular ecstatic experiences, that conform to some of the descriptions in these various Yoga and Buddhist treatises. In addition to studying Coptic out-of-body techniques, as well as the mind penetration techniques of Silva Mind Control, in 1973 I also began a study of dharma, and I began a daily meditation practice. For the first few years my practice was primarily in the tradition of Advaita Vedanta. A year and a half later I was introduced to the practice of Vipassana in a ten day retreat lead by Robert Hover, who was a student of the Burmese teacher Sayagi U Ba Khin, and a peer of SN Goenka. I have attended about 15 ten day meditation retreats, and about 45 three to five day retreats from a number of excellent teachers in various traditions. Recently I have also attended two 28 day retreats, and I spent 90 days in a Kundalini yoga ashram in 1974. I have had a twice daily meditation practice for almost the whole of the intervening 30 years. The contemplative traditions that I have practiced have been primarily Advaita Vedanta and Theravadan Buddhist, in spite of my early initiation into Egyptian mysticism. I have recently found an excellent complement to these traditions in Mahamudra and Dzogchen for which I have received the various transmissions and empowerments at several 10 and 28 day retreats. The decades of daily meditation practice have produced a series of symptoms, or charisms, as they are called in Christian mysticism. The symptoms that I am experiencing in meditation are: within a few minutes of engaging myself in the observation of the breath, my mind begins to settle to stillness. I understand this state is called shamata in Buddhism. This stillness is stable and unmoved by sensory or mental state variations. I have found this state consistent with the equanimity discussed in the Pali canon. During my meditation practice, my awareness expands, and my concentration becomes more focused. A kind of energy builds gently along my spine, as my meditation deepens. This "energy" seems to correspond to the descriptions I have read about kundalini. Soon after the calm is established I bring my awareness to the tactile field. A series of sensations follow soon after. Typically the sensations I have - other than full body awareness of the surface of my body and the internal organ functions, muscles, circulatory system and connective tissue - are primarily a general full-body vibrator sensation, which is often concentrated in my hands, chest, throat, forehead and top of the head. With the noteworthy exception of the phenomena in the hands, I have found these sensations are coincident with the four upper chakras in the chakra system of the Yogas. And, I have found the generalized full-body vibratory sensation is consistent with the concept of an aura, or a "magnetic" field around the body. These vibratory sensations become the most dominant tactile sensations and soon overwhelm my physical awareness domain. Once the tactile field is resonant with "energy" or sensation, I bring my awareness domain to the sense of hearing. I typically have a light omnidirectional ringing in my ears at all times as an apparent consequence of my daily practice, but when I am in meditation, and I bring my awareness to the ringing, it becomes very loud. This ringing is often sufficiently intense as to be nearly deafening. The sound often goes through a series of frequency changes from a cicada-like chirping, to ringing, to a roaring, like rain, or a water fall, or perhaps the ocean at a distance. I have found that there is often a very gentle bobbing of my head and a gentle swaying of my torso to accompany the above sensations. The bobbing and swaying seems purely autonomic, and appears to be an elastic response in the frame of the body caused by blood pulsing in my legs, torso and neck without the counter balancing effect of muscles, which have become relaxed due to meditation, and therefore don't hold the neck and torso in check. Often shock waves like a deep shiver also run up my spine at intermittent intervals, at which time my fingers and lips may twitch and my torso becomes very erect This sudden increase in energy often causes the period of the oscillations of my torso and neck to become more rapid in the same way a guitar string oscillates more rapidly if drawn taught. In company with the shock waves is usually a sensation of intense ecstasy, which culminates in a sense of luminosity. I have found this has been described as the classic kundalini phenomena in the yoga literature. Since I practiced Vipassana meditation in the tradition of Sayagi U Ba Khin, I was introduced to contemplative practice in various forms of body scanning in the tactile field. Over the years I have modified my meditation practice as a consequence of experience, deepening concentration and broadening awareness. I've found that scanning is no longer necessary for me. I now follow the full practice set that is described in the Satipatthana Sutta, which supersedes the classic Vipassana practice regimen. I have found body scanning, like any other concentration technique, seems to serve the primary purpose of occupying the mind until it comes to rest. Since I can settle my mind fairly quickly in calm abiding (shamata), I have found I can simply observe the tactile field as a totality. Once I'm observing the whole of the tactile field, then this whole-body vibratory sensation soon emerges. Once I'm established in calm abiding through observing the tactile field, I begin to observe the other sense fields simultaneously. I usually add the sense field of sound next which eventually becomes, as I have said, a ringing. The ringing is really much more a combination of sounds such as ringing, whirring, buzzing, chirping, and a rushing sound all at the same time. I believe the ringing in the ears is to the auditory gate, as the vibrations are to the tactile gate. I have found through the international dialog that is taking place on the Jhana Support Group that both of these manifestations are classic charisms (nimitta) in their respective sense fields. During these deep absorption states I have found the other senses have their own manifestations of unique expression, or charisms, as well. Therefore the charisms appear to manifest in their own unique ways in each sense gate. In the progression of my daily sit I eventually observe all of the senses at once. Simultaneously observing the manifestations of charisms in all of the sense fields becomes something like witnessing a symphony of pleasant sensations in all 7 senses. I recently examined a translation of the Samadhanga Sutta, a chapter of the Pali cannon that describes the absorption states (jhanas). I found it too poetic to receive adequate direction from, but it describes how the aspirant becomes progressively more soaked, or saturated in ecstasy in each of 8 successive absorption states (jhanas/samadhis/dhyanas). In interpreting this sutta, it seems that ecstasy (jhana) is the manifestation of charisms, or the Pali term 'nimitta', in its various unique forms in the sense fields. My conclusion is, I have experienced all of the absorption states (jhanas/samadhis/dhyanas). And, since equanimity is the underlying and dominant condition of my 'mind,' and equanimity is the telltale factor for determining the fourth and highest material absorption (jhana), it appears that I have arrived at and sustain the fourth jhana on a daily basis. From examining various chapters of the Pali canon, it seems that the trajectory toward enlightenment is to go through these ecstatic absorption states (jhanas) on one's way to the subjective experiences the Buddha described as "unification of consciousness." These states are typified by the lucid subjective experience of merging with infinite time, space, consciousness and non-dualism (neither this nor that), which are called the arupa jhanas, or non-material absorptions. The descriptions of spiritual ecstasy and enlightenment in the Pali canon seem to indicate the absorption states are altered states of consciousness through which we must pass to arrive at nibbana. Nibbana (nirvana in Sanskrit) is an annihilation, or cessation, of the self in the infinite. I have found when I just go with the surges of energy (kundalini) and other manifestations (nimitta), then I pass through the various unification and cessation stages, which occur to me at random intervals, but many times each year. To go deeper into equanimity I have found relinquishing grasping is essential. I have found that grasping clearly hinders the progression of the absorption states, so relinquishing grasping is central to my practice at this time. In fact I have found that a grasping "event" immediately precedes a mind event, or ripple of disturbance on the otherwise quiet flow of my awareness (equanimity). Consequently, my mindfulness practice for many years now has been primarily focused on observing the rising and falling of grasping and aversion in response to the senses. In this way I have endeavored to relinquish any hold or obstruction on the senses. During the deepening of my meditation I notice a progression of increasing concentration and corresponding expanding awareness, which often causes a bit of a shift in my focus and my breathing at discrete moments. I have found if I flow spontaneously with these shifts, then the various absorption states arise. These shifts in focus and breathing seem to precede the surges up my spine, which can be of sufficient force as to give me the sensation as though I'm going to be lifted off the zaffu. It does seem at times, that if the energy rising up my spine got anymore intense, my brain would pop out of the top of my head. It can be a bit disconcerting at times, but that is when I have found it is best to practice non-grasping to even the body. As this energy surges up my spine I undergo this series of shifts in focus, which eventually concludes in a wall of light that impinges on my psyche to the point of overwhelming my identity. At that moment it seems even identity must be relinquished as well (anatta). It seems that the trajectory is to get to a place where one doesn't cling to anything, not even to identity. It is this experience that seems to be what the historic Buddha called cessation (nibbana). I have been meditating 3 to 4 hours a day for several years now. Every time I sit I enjoy some part or all of the above described sensations. I have found that when I begin and end each day with these pleasant sensations my days and nights are filled with charisms (nimitta), as well as pleasant thoughts and feelings. Everyday I fill each moment with mindful observation of these sensations, and I attentively avoid grasping and aversion. Consequently equanimity pervades or permeates my waking and sleep state. In fact from the moment I first become aware of this body, until the moment that sleep overcomes this body, I am filled with more happiness and contentment than I can recall ever having. And I am always filled with the sweetest sensation of love, as though I have a new romance, but there is no object to my love. This practice and these sensations have even pervaded my sleep state, because I no longer seem to go unconscious when I rest at night, As I rest the body at night I observe mindfuly the progression of my repose, which is a succession of deepening relaxation, and lengthening or slowing breath, until there is a flash of blackness and a timelessness in which I lose awareness of the body. Eventually dreams arise and move one from the next throughout the night. These dreams by the way are as lucid as the waking reality. Eventually around 4 AM each morning I become aware of the body again. I sit to meditate for an hour or two before my son awakes and I begin my day. The pervasion of my awareness into my sleep domain has also produced a kind of shattering of my sense of reality, as well as producing a lack of dependence on a linear time/space domain. My dreams are often so lucid as to be indistinguishable from what we call "waking reality." Consequently, even though I "awake" every morning to this "reality, I frequently "awaken" to other seamlessly real and equally engaging realities. But these "realities" are not in this space/time domain. The consequence is that I cannot with conviction state that this reality is any more real than the other realities that I encounter. I believe this is the realization of much of the material within Advaita Vedanta and Mahamudra, in which the very nature of the subject-object reality is called into question. It is a bit disconcerting not knowing to which reality I can "rely" on, or to which I will find myself in the next moment. This lack of reliance on a time/space domain has produced a lack of dependence on external references. Thus a great ambivalence toward the objects of the senses has arisen in me. As a consequence I seem to have no ambition for anything in life. I have no interest in a career. I do not care for a relationship, or to acquiring progeny. I have no interest in acquiring anything, such as land or a home. I have no thought toward acquiring wealth, or a retirement. I do not even care if I get sick, or how long I live. Death could come in the next moment, and it would mean nothing to me. And, interestingly enough, I have no fear of the dark. Another interesting property of my life, is I can't seem to gain my balance. I often feel ever so slightly off balance. I believe this "vertigo" is related to the heightened awareness I have developed for my senses. One of the most over looked senses is our sense of balance, which comes from sensors in the inner ear. It is this sense of balance though that is critical to our species method of bipedal locomotion. I believe the sense of euphoria one experiences during the ecstasies is a charism characteristic of a heightened awareness the sense of balance. It is this, perhaps overly acute, awareness of the sense of balance that keeps me feeling slightly off balance, almost as though I am drunk. I am 50 years old and a single parent of two children. My spiritual practice has been something that I have arranged in the quiet times after the children and spouse have gone off to sleep. The spouse left long ago. My oldest has already graduated from college, and my youngest is 6 months from leaving home for college. Once he has left home I plan to dedicate the whole of my energies to my spiritual practice, the furthering of the dharma, and the teaching of students. I am now wanting to spend all of my time in meditation, so I seek retreat opportunities wherever I can find them. I spend all of my vacation time at meditation retreats, which amounts to about 60 days of retreat time each year. My only interest in life is maintaining these subjective experiences, and directing others in their practice. I originally sent this description of my subjective experiences out as a letter to every dharma teacher, Bhikkhu and lama I could find an address for. I received only a few replies. From Shinzen Young of the Vipassana Support Institute I found out the Pali name for these experiences is 'Jhana'. From Leigh Brasington I found out Satipatthana is the practice tradition within Theravadan Buddhism that supports these experiences. From Bhante Gunaratana of the Bhavana Society I acquired an excellent list of suttas that support the experience. And, from Joseph Goldstein of Insight Meditation Society (IMS) I learned that it is common for their students attending the IMS three month intensive retreat to have vertigo problems. But, since I have found almost no one who can speak on these subjects authoritatively I have started a Yahoo group to support people who have these experiences. It is a peer-level group, because I have found quite a few people, like myself, have had some or all of these same experiences. And, among the personal records on the Jhana Support Group I have found there is an authentic commonality in our subjective experiences to warrant some generalizations. The Jhana Support Group forum has attracted over 180 people in a peer level community of contemplatives who support each other in their meditation practices. Therefore if you are having any of the above symptoms (charisms) in your practice and you would like to have validation and direction, then do subscribe today. Jhana Support Group A support group for ecstatic contemplatives website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ Subscribe: Jhanas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Please excuse my rather long story. I can only hope that I have been of even a small help to a few of you. My only wish is to benefit all beings with every thought, word, action and resource. May you begin each day and end each day with bliss, and may your days and nights be filled with joy. Jeff Brooks November, 2003 26898 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Worry Nina, Thank you for your welcome. Fully agree. Well thought. Metta Michael >From: nina van gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [dsg] Worry >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:07:08 +0100 > >Hi Michael, >Welcome to this group. I hope you will find it useful. >I think also after committing evil, you can regret and then have the >wholesome shame. You realize what you have done. You make the intention not >to do this evil again, with shame and fear in the wholesome way.Cittas >change all the time, then kusala, then akusala, etc. Thus, it all depends >on >the citta that arises. > >Nina. >op 11-11-2003 19:39 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > > > Hello Andrew, > > > > I have joined this discussion list and would like to give my >contribution. I > > think the mix up starts by considering hiri/ottappa as backward looking. >If > > you look at the Abhidhammattha Sangaha on pg 86, it says that >hiri/ottappa > > 'has the function of not doing evil and are manifested as the shrinking >away > > from evil.' Therefore they are very much active prior to commiting any > > action and not as a reflection on what has already happened. > 26899 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > You wrote before that you intended to develop all ten akusala kamma pathas > for the next three months. I was wondering, how can Rob plan it that way? ===== Did I write that I wanted to develop the "ten akusala kamma pathas"??? I meant that I wanted to develop the "ten punna-kiriya vatthu" :-) :-) :-) The string on my wrist is a condition to remind me of my recent kusala kamma. Putting the ten bases of meritorius actions on a "to do list" as part of daily planning is another way of creating more conditons to support more kusala. Planning for kusala is itself wholesome. Performing kusala with all one's heart is wholesome. Sharing the merits accrued is wholesome. Remembering past kusala is wholesome. I am using "modern business concepts" (to do list, daily planning, etc.) to support timeless wisdom. I will be meeting K. Sujin, Betty, Sukin and others in a few hours. I am really looking forward to it! Metta, Rob M :-) 26900 From: Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Vis. XIV 38, 39, 40, 41 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 38. 2. The ear's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of sounds; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to hear. Its function is to pick up [an object] among sounds. It is manifested as the footing of ear-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to hear. 39. 3. The nose's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of odours; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to smell. Its function is to pick up [an object] among odours. It is manifested as the footing of nose-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements sourcing from desire to smell. 40. 4. The tongue's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of flavours; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to taste. Its function is to pick up [an object] among flavours. It is manifested as the footing of tongue-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to taste. 41. 5. The body's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of tangible data; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to touch. Its function is to pick up [an object] among tangible data. It is manifested as the footing of body-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to touch. 26901 From: Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 7:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV 38, 39, 40, 41 "The ear's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of sounds;..." Hi all, I think "primary elements" here refers to the sensitive matter of the sense organs. We could say the 4 element group repeatedly arises in a certain continuum that is _ready_ for the impact of sound etc. This means the ear doesn't cease to exist when we see. (This may have some philosophical significance.) I'm not sure if the "impact" of sound with sensitive matter is the same as "contact" (phassa). There will be further discussion on the nature of sensitive matter in the next few paragraphs. Larry 26902 From: shakti Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi Rob, You wrote: The string on my wrist is a condition to remind me of my recent kusala kamma. Putting the ten bases of meritorius actions on a "to do list" as part of daily planning is another way of creating more conditons to support more kusala. Planning for kusala is itself wholesome. Performing kusala with all one's heart is wholesome. Sharing the merits accrued is wholesome. Remembering past kusala is wholesome. I am using "modern business concepts" (to do list, daily planning, etc.) to support timeless wisdom.that you want to share the merit _________________________ Shakti: I was wondering how do you share the merits that you accrued?? Hope that you had a wonderful visit with Khun Sujin, Sukin, Betty and others. Let us know how it went. With metta, Shakti robmoult wrote: Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > You wrote before that you intended to develop all ten akusala kamma pathas > for the next three months. I was wondering, how can Rob plan it that way? ===== Did I write that I wanted to develop the "ten akusala kamma pathas"??? I meant that I wanted to develop the "ten punna-kiriya vatthu" :-) :-) :-) I will be meeting K. Sujin, Betty, Sukin and others in a few hours. I am really looking forward to it! Metta, Rob M :-) 26903 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Dear Rob M, What a mistake. Of course, kusala, only kusala!! Spelling mistake, carelessness. Sorry. Nina. op 13-11-2003 00:58 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > Did I write that I wanted to develop the "ten akusala kamma > pathas"??? I meant that I wanted to develop the "ten punna-kiriya > vatthu" :-) :-) :-) 26904 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Michael, (Icaro & any Newbies) I greatly appreciated your introduction. We have at least a couple of other Brazilian members: - Leonardo who is a full-time lurker and Icaro who you’ll ‘meet’ very soon;-) Icaro likes to study the Visuddhimagga in German or check out Indonesian websites, when he needs a break from Portuguese, English, Pali and I forget what else. You’ll get on well. --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Sarah, <..> > Currently I am retired and fully dedicated to the Dhamma. My > interest > in Buddhism started about 10 years ago and gradually has increased over > the > years. About 3 years ago I started a web site with sutta and essays > translation to Portuguese. ..... This is great to hear. Hopefully, we’ll hear plenty from you. Perhaps you can give us a link to your website, so we can take a peek. There are bound to be other members here who speak/understand Portuguese. ..... <..> I would love to live in a Theravada country to > enjoy > Buddhism from the inside but currently am bound to the place I live by > my > son who is still a freshman in high school. But after he gets to college > I > hope that wish will materialize. .... I think the main factor in ‘enjoying Buddhism from the inside’ has to do with right understanding and the development of awareness rather than living in a particular place. Now you have time and access to the Teachings and obviously are making the best use of resources. Nonetheless, hope you can travel and maybe meet us in Asia one day;-) ..... M:> Going back to our conversation, I have to say that I am not that > familiar > with the writings of Buddhaghosa. It’s funny because the Visuddhimagga > was > one of the very first books I bought on Theravada Buddhism but never > came > around to really read and study. ..... Let me see if we can help, especially given your interest in Pali as well;-) First, let me explain to you and any other Newbies that at present, we’re working through the last part (part 111) of the Visuddhimagga, transl by ~Naa.namoli, as a group text. This is the large section of the text, starting at ch X1V and called Understanding (Pa~n~naa). It helps to have a copy of the text, but in any case the installments posted so far can be found, together with the Pali, in Files, almost at the bottom where it says: z VismX1Vlinks.htm, posted by Jon. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ It would be easy to print these out. Each installment on list (given by Larry) is discussed and often Nina gives extra details and sub-commentary translations. The latter and some of the more detailed notes can be found in U.P. under ‘Visuddhimagga’, almost at the end: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts We’d be delighted if you or anyone else join in the threads anytime. You’re also most welcome to pick up any of the previous installments for further discussion. No questions or comments are too basic or too late. .... Before this difficult text, we went through Nina’s ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’ and Soma’s translation of the Satipatthana Sutta commentary and sub-commentary in the same way. If anyone wants help locating any of the threads or discussions, pls ask. ..... M:>I have only occasionally browsed > through > it. But one of the critics raised by DK in his book is the use by > Buddhaghosa of essencialist perspectives which cannot be traced back to > the > original scriptures of the Canon. ..... I think we’d need to look at specific references to discuss this any further. I’m not saying it is so in this case (I have no idea at all), but often we’ve found here that the most vehement critics of Buddhaghosa, the commentaries or the Abhidhamma are people who have studied these texts very little if at all. Many of the criticisms (if not all;-)) do not stand up to careful scrutiny of the texts. One thing for sure, all the teachings revolve around the understanding of presently arising ultimate realities (paramatha dhammas) or khandhas and the knowledge that these are anatta. It just depends whether there are the right conditions for there to be enough detachment and wisdom to appreciate the reminders from any of these texts when we read and consider them, as I see it. With metta, Sarah p.s Icaro: thx for thinking of us at busy bootcamp - metta and kisses from all at DSG too;-) We’re counting the days til you and Dhammasangani return. ===== 26905 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hi Jeff, --- macdocaz1@a... wrote: > J:<..> > Hello my name is Jeff Brooks and I am relatively new to your list. > Quite a > few people have asked me to explain who I am .... I wouldn’t say ‘relatively new’. In case you’ve forgotten, you started posting on DSG last April and introduced yourself and your experiences at that time;-) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/index.html?by=Author&a=macdocaz1 Whilst I think that it’s always interesting to read and hear about people’s past experiences -- and there’s no doubt that yours are particularly colourful -- the past has gone completely. I think we all tend to cling to past special experiences and sometimes try to fit the texts to match any unusual phenomena, but surely this is just indicative of the clinging at this moment and lack of any understanding of what is presently arising? ... J:<...> > Since I practiced Vipassana meditation in the tradition of Sayagi U Ba > Khin, > I was introduced to contemplative practice in various forms of body > scanning > in the tactile field. Over the years I have modified my meditation > practice as > a consequence of experience, deepening concentration and broadening > awareness. > I've found that scanning is no longer necessary for me. I now follow > the > full practice set that is described in the Satipatthana Sutta, which > supersedes > the classic Vipassana practice regimen. .... So how do you understand the ‘full practice’ described in the SS as it applies to this moment? Is there any self that can practice? .... J: <..> > I have found body scanning, like any other concentration technique, > seems to > serve the primary purpose of occupying the mind until it comes to rest. > Since > I can settle my mind fairly quickly in calm abiding (shamata), I have > found I > can simply observe the tactile field as a totality. Once I'm observing > the > whole of the tactile field, then this whole-body vibratory sensation > soon emerges. ..... Is this what is described in the SS as you read it? Would you explain what you mean by “I” that can ‘simply observe’? Perhaps you’d like to share a short extract for further discussion. .... J: <...> > Once I'm established in calm abiding through observing the tactile > field, I > begin to observe the other sense fields simultaneously. I usually add > the sense > field of sound next which eventually becomes, as I have said, a ringing. > The > ringing is really much more a combination of sounds such as ringing, > whirring, > buzzing, chirping, and a rushing sound all at the same time. .... Jeff, who is observing? Is it a self that observes and selects objects? Is there any suggestion in any of the Tipitaka that sense fields can be experienced or observed ‘simultaneously’? Whether we are discussing the development of satipatthana leading to the development of the eightfold path and realization of nibbana, or the development of samatha leading to jhanas, I understand that the practice has to be now and has to be with clear comprehension. There has to be clear comprehension right from the beginning about the distinction between moments of kusala (wholesome consciousness and associated states) and akusala (unwholesome) . If there isn’t this distinction or any precise knowledge of the object of bhavana (mental development), ignorance and wrong view and wrong concentration will lead us further and further down the wrong track. As I’m sure you know, jhana and path factors such as understanding, effort and concentration can be wholesome or unwholesome, right or wrong. As you appreciate reading the suttas, I’m sure you will appreciate that the essential message of the Buddha’s teaching was with regard to anatta. The practice has to develop with an understanding of namas and rupas as anatta from the very beginning. Clinging to a self and particular experiences doesn’t need to be developed. It is already the cause of dukkha. The following is a quote from B.Bodhi’s introduction to the Brahmajala sutta: “The clinging to being issues in a ‘personality view’ (sakkaayadi.t.thi)affirming the presence of an abiding self in the pyschophysical organism in one of twenty ways: as identical with, possessing, contained within or containing one or another of the five aggregates that constitute the individual personality - material form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness. Arisen already at the pre-reflective level,this view in turn becomes the basis for latter reflective interpretations of existence, crystallizing into the sixty-two views of the sutta. As it is explained: “Now, householder, as to those divers views that arise in the world, ...and as to these sixty-two views set forth in the Brahmajala, it is owing to the personality view that they arise, and if the personality view exists not, they do not exist” (S 1V 7.3). “Since the notion of selfhood is accepted uncritically at the level of ordinary experience, higher attainments in meditation, as the Brahmajala shows, will not suffice to eliminate the notion but will only reinforce it by providing apparent verification of the self originally presupposed at the outset of practice. It is as if one were to lead a man wearing red-tinted glasses from a small room to an open field. The change of scene will not alter the colour of his vision, for as long as he is wearing red glasses everything he sees will be coloured red.” ***** Nyantiloka’s dictionary also has a useful section under ‘Di.t.thi’ http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/ditthi.htm Wishing you well, Jeff. I know you probably won’t appreciate these direct comments, but you’re welcome to disagree or discuss them further. With metta, Sarah ====== 26906 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati In dhammastdygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: >> It is said, "Anapanasati is difficult,difficult to develop, a field > in which only the minds of Buddhas,paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons > are at home" and "The most difficult of the 40 meditation subjects" > > > Why then is anapanasati recommended for a "Moha carita person"? > > What is the definition of "Buddhas sons"? ============ Dear Steve, I think the texts indicate that the Buddha's sons means Mahapurisa, those with great accumulations. When you look at the other 37 objects of samatha in the Visuddhimagga we see that only anapanasati is singled out for this special attention. Anapanasati is the samatha object that all the Buddha's use on the eve of their attainment, it is such a wonderful object for those who can develop it. But that doesn't mean it is easy. From visuddimagga 211 viii the pali: Ki~ncaapi hi ya.mki~nci kamma.t.thaana.m satassa sampajaanasseva sampajjati. Ito a~n~na.m pana manasikarontassa paaka.ta.m hoti. Ida.m pana aanaapaanassatikamma.t.thaana.m garuka.m garukabhaavana.m buddhapaccekabuddhabuddhaputtaana.m mahaapurisaa na.myeva manasikaarabhuumibhuuta.m, na ceva ittara.m, na ca ittarasattasamaasevita.m. Yathaa yathaa manasi kariiyati, tathaa tathaa santa ~nceva hoti sukhuma~nca. Tasmaa ettha balavatii sati ca pa~n~naa ca icchitabbaa. =============== It is a stock phrase in the commentaries with regard to anapanasati. E.g: Patisambhidhimagga -atthakatha anapanassatikatha and in the Commentary to vinaya Parajika khanda attakatha . There are other places too. ============= You wonder why in the Visuddhimagga Buddhaghosa in one section says it is the hardest of all samatha objects and in another says that it is suitable for the mohacarita, one with a temperament on the ignorant side? As I mentioned in an earlier letter anapanasati is suitable for both mohacarita as RoBM mentioned and also the vitakkacaritassa (discursive ) type. The six temperaments come in pairs: so the one of hating temperament is parallel to the one of intelligent temperament in that both are disaffected and do not cling; hating in an unprofitable way and intelligence in a profitable way. The discursive type has many applied thoughts due to thinking over various aspects. Anapanasati is the meditation which especially stills vitakka and vicara, which both vittakka and mohacarissa types have a lot of. The Visuddhimagga III 122 "Mindfulness of breathing should be developed for the purpose of cutting off of applied thought.." Interesting to see that the one of greedy temperament - who when doing any task "acts skillfully, gently evenly and carefully" should ideally not have much time in a sitting posture when trying to devlop samatha:"the right kind of posture for him is standing or walking"III 98. Back to the question: why give the most difficult of all subjects to the one of deluded temperament? Because it is the outstanding one for cutting off thinking, and the deluded temperament conjectures unskillfully about all manner of things. Does this then mean that it is easy to develop? No, as the Visuddhimagga says it is the most difficult. Can the one of deluded temperament develop it then? Yes, if they have the parami etc. No, if not. Remember that one can have enormous skillful parami and still be one of the `not so good` in temperament. This is because the temperament is to a large degree decided by the the type of rebirth producing kamma in this life. There are also other classifications of recommended objects. Death, maranasati, for example, is recommended for the one of intelligent temperament when considering the carita. But it is recommended for all when considering by way of its great helpfulness (vis. iii 59) Again metta is recommended for the one with hate temperament when considering carita but is said to be good for all when considered by way of its "general usefulness" and "great helpfulness" iii59. Note that even though metta is said to be especially suitable for the hating type it doesn`t necessarily follow that the one of hating temperament will succeed in developing jhana by using it. The same for breath and the mohacaritassa. RobertK 26907 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV 38, 39, 40, 41 Hi Larry, It always helps when you start the ball rolling.... --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The ear's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is > ready for the impact of sounds;..." > > Hi all, > > I think "primary elements" here refers to the sensitive matter of the > sense organs. ... Yes, the primary elements as found in the sensitive matter of the ear where hearing takes places. Keep in mind the following definition of the ‘primary elements’: >”35. Herein (a) "primary materiality" is of four kinds as the earth element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, 87, 93); but as to the proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444]” .... >We could say the 4 element group repeatedly arises in a > certain continuum that is _ready_ for the impact of sound etc. This > means the ear doesn't cease to exist when we see. (This may have some > philosophical significance.) > I'm not sure if the "impact" of sound with > sensitive matter is the same as "contact" (phassa). ... Certainly if phassa didn’t arise with the hearing citta, there’d be no ‘impact’, so it’s a necessary condition, along with the sound, the eye-base, kamma to bring about vipaka result and so on. .... >There will be > further discussion on the nature of sensitive matter in the next few > paragraphs. .... Good. Again it’s easier to follow if one leaves aside one’s knowledge from science I think. Metta, Sarah ====== 26908 From: nordwest Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:30pm Subject: What is Self-power? The term "Self-power" would mean, that there is a "Self" that has power. But - I suppose, we all agree - that there is no Self, the term "Self" is totally empty, or in other words, an illusion. So then, what is it that has power, if there is no Self? The answer is, the Mind has power. OK, so let us see... what is the mind? Original it is a Pure Mind, the mind of the Buddha you may say, the enlightened mind. But our mind is defiled, it is not pure. Where does the mind get it's knowledge from? Don't answer with 'the brain, the eyes, the ears, the senses..." because this is not correct. If it were correct, than all the buddhas would be blind, deaf, and senseless beings.. I don't think they are such handicapped. We rely on the eyes and ears, because we are too stupid to understand that we are not this body at all, we are merely "imprisoned" by our limited senses. The Pure Mind has knowledge about everything, it is the enlightened mind that is beyond time and space, it travels the universe and there is nothing it doesn't understand or know, it is our original mind. How come the mind of the Buddha, the Pure Mind, can grasp the entire universe, all that is? The answer is: because it is One with everything that is. There are no two things such as universe-here and universe-there. There is no space and time for the buddha. So, we see things with this very mind.. only that our mind is defiled. But it is still one with everything... we just have no clear view to the universal wisdom. In other words, our Self-power is in reality the power of all that is, the power of the One. There is no difference, no dualism. No mind is seperated from anything. What is the Buddha? He is one with the universe too. - The buddha is One with the universe, and your mind is One with universe. So the Other-power is Self-power anyway, if you want it or not. ;) You use this Other-power a billion times a day without being aware of it. So when we recite the Nembutsu, the buddha-name, or visualize the Buddha, or contemplate the buddha, then we have Pure Thoughts. The Pure Thought cleans the defiled mind and when this Pure Thought becomes a samadhi, a constant thought, than the mind is constantly pure. Than you are enlightened. So the "Other power" is in reality totally "Self-power". The Buddha wis never seperated from us, or from our mind... only WE think that we are seperated beings... well, this is why we are in samsara, isn't it? NAMU AMIDA BUTSU! Yours in the Dharma, Thomas 26909 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Michael, (Icaro & any Newbies) I think we'd need to look at specific references to discuss this any > further. I'm not saying it is so in this case (I have no idea at all), but > often we've found here that the most vehement critics of Buddhaghosa, the > commentaries or the Abhidhamma are people who have studied these texts > very little if at all. Many of the criticisms (if not all;-)) do not stand > up to careful scrutiny of the texts. Hi Sarah, Could you give some specific examples of criticisms that did not stand up after careful scrutiny of the texts? If you want specifics for certain claims I think you should also provide specifics for your claims. Metta, James 26910 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > S: > Many of the criticisms (if not all;-)) do > not stand > > up to careful scrutiny of the texts. > > > Hi Sarah, > > Could you give some specific examples of criticisms that did not > stand up after careful scrutiny of the texts? If you want specifics > for certain claims I think you should also provide specifics for your > claims. ... Ok, I’ll start;-) Some specifics were used in these detailed posts (mostly by RobertK) with regard to Buddhadasa Bhikkhu’s criticisms about Buddhaghosa, particularly on: paticcasamuppada and rebirth 20495, 20512, 20530, 25185 (If the links don’t work, pls key in the numbers on the home-page) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup We can look at any other specifics anyone else wishes us to look at - preferably with references to the Vism or other commentaries, rather than just general comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 26911 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:39am Subject: New Photos Hi all, Just added two new pics of this afternoon's meeting with Rob M. and others. It is in the 'Members' section. Sukin 26912 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:54am Subject: Meeting with K. Sujin Hi All, A few hours ago, I met with K. Sujin, her sister, Ivan, El, Betty and Sukin for lunch in Bangkok. After lunch, I explained my understanding of Natural Decisive Support condition and concluded by noting that it seemed like an extremely important condition. Khun Sujin agreed that it was an important condition but noted that there were other important conditions as well. She then asked in a direct manner, "but how does it link to the present moment?" Her question took me aback. She went on to say, "There are moments of vipaka, moments of kiriya, moments of kusala and moments of akusala. It is important to be aware of each moment." Ivan took over and expanded on her points at length. One particularly vivid analogy given by Ivan was of a movie film. When we watch a film at the theatre, what we are seeing is a very large number of single picture frames images projected in succession. Each picture frame image does not contain a story. Our mind merges the images together to create a story; a story that is intended by the director of the film (moha), but is not inherent in any of the images (sorry Ivan, I have extended your metaphor a bit by adding in moha the director - not seen directly, but a central influencer of the movie). Ivan then posited that the value of the Abhidhamma was the description it gave of the present moment; Ivan suggested that the link to the present moment was his litmus test of the value of various portions of the Abhidhamma. I realized that it was important to have the proper outlook on the Abhidhamma ("right view"). I had not considered this perspective on the Abhidhamma. My mind kept "proliferating"; trying to consider the implications of this viewpoint. At the same time, Ivan kept talking, giving more analogies and more explanations that kept coming back to the topic of anatta. After almost three hours, my mind was close to overload. I need time to ruminate and adjust my paradigms. I must admit that I had heard almost all of the concepts before (from Sarah, Jon and Nina's writings), but the same words in a different situation can condition different reactions. In summary, conditions were conducive for the accumulation of passaddhi (tranquility), lahuta (agility / lightness / buoyancy), muduta (pliancy / elasticity), kammannata (wieldiness / adaptability / workableness), pagunnata (proficiency) and ujjukata (uprightness / rectitude). Metta, Rob M :-) PS: The food (Indian / Chinese) was good, too :-) 26913 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > S: > Many of the criticisms (if not all;-)) do > > not stand > > > up to careful scrutiny of the texts. > > > > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > Could you give some specific examples of criticisms that did not > > stand up after careful scrutiny of the texts? If you want specifics > > for certain claims I think you should also provide specifics for your > > claims. > ... > Ok, I'll start;-) Some specifics were used in these detailed posts (mostly > by RobertK) with regard to Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's criticisms about > Buddhaghosa, particularly on: > > paticcasamuppada and rebirth > > 20495, 20512, 20530, 25185 > > (If the links don't work, pls key in the numbers on the home-page) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup > > We can look at any other specifics anyone else wishes us to look at - > preferably with references to the Vism or other commentaries, rather than > just general comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Hi Sarah, Yes, I remember this thread, as I did participate in it. It did not, as you claim, disprove anything or prove anything. I raised an important point in regards to Robert K's posts: "Also, Robert K's post was not the unilateral disqualification of all of the views of Buddhadasa that you both seem to purport it as being. He simply questioned some of Buddhadasa's interpretations using his own analysis. Personally, I didn't find it conclusive in any regard because he didn't quote the actual words and analysis of Buddhadasa, but he did quote the actual words of Buddhaghosa. That is not a fair or comprehensive comparison. To paraphrase one and then direly [sic. directly] quote the other may be a misrepresentation of both and more strongly of the views of Buddhadasa; which I am not saying with all certainty that that is what occurred." To which Robert K replied (post 20527): "Well I tried to summarize his arguments fairly. It ran to many pages so I couldn't quote them all. Unfortunately the book is up in Japan but I have a few more notes so might add these later. I think I could write even more on points where I agree with Buddhadasa, but my aim in this case was to respond only to his criticisms of Buddhaghosa and the Visuddhimagga." That was the last we heard about it. Now, in my mind this issue hasn't been resolved or proven. Buddhadasa has several pages of arguments to prove his position against Buddhaghosa and absolutely none of them are quoted, just summarized (which the summary may or may not be accurate). Most importantly, we are missing his EVIDENCE! If he has several pages of argumentation and proof, I would like to read them. Until then, nothing is resolved. I find this example moot. Could you please provide another? Metta, James 26914 From: bodhi2500 Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Robert Thankyou for your reply. Steve "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Back to the question: why give the most difficult of all subjects to > the one of deluded temperament? Because it is the outstanding one > for cutting off thinking, and the deluded temperament conjectures > unskillfully about all manner of things. Does this then mean that it > is easy to develop? No, as the Visuddhimagga says it is the most > difficult. > Can the one of deluded temperament develop it then? Yes, if they > have the parami etc. No, if not. Remember that one can have enormous > skillful parami and still be one of the `not so good` in > temperament. This is because the temperament is to a large degree > decided by the the type of rebirth producing kamma in this life. > RobertK 26915 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:55am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 22, 23 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [Regarding the four patisambhida.] 22. Herein, "meaning" (attha) is briefly a term for the fruit of a cause (hetu). For in accordance with the cause it is served, (7) arrived at, reached, therefore it is called 'meaning' (or 'purpose'). But in particular the five things, namely, (i) anything conditionally produced, [441] (ii) nibbana, (iii) the meaning of what is spoken, (iv) (kamma-) result, and (v) functional (consciousness), should be understood as "meaning". When anyone reviews that meaning, any knowledge of his, falling within the category (pabheda) concerned with meaning, is the "discrimination of meaning". 22. tattha atthoti sa"nkhepato hetuphalasseta.m adhivacana.m. hetuphala.m hi yasmaa hetuanusaarena ariyati adhigamiyati sampaapu.niyati, tasmaa atthoti vuccati. pabhedato pana ya.m ki~nci paccayasambhuuta.m, nibbaana.m, bhaasitattho, vipaako, kiriyaati ime pa~nca dhammaa atthoti veditabbaa. ta.m attha.m paccavekkhantassa tasmi.m atthe pabhedagata.m ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. 23. "Law" (dhamma) is briefly a term for a condition (paccaya). For since a condition necessitates (dahati) whatever it may be, makes it occur or allows it to happen, it is therefore called 'law' (dhamma). But in particular the five things, namely,(i) any cause that produces fruit, (ii) the noble path, (iii) what is spoken, (iv) what is profitable, and (v) what is unprofitable, should be understood as "law". When anyone reviews that law, any knowledge of his, falling within the category concerned with the law, is the "discrimination of law". 23. dhammotipi sa"nkhepato paccayasseta.m adhivacana.m. paccayo hi yasmaa ta.m ta.m dahati pavatteti vaa sampaapu.nitu.m vaa deti, tasmaa dhammoti vuccati. pabhedato pana yo koci phalanibbattako hetu, ariyamaggo, bhaasita.m, kusala.m, akusalanti ime pa~nca dhammaa dhammoti veditabbaa. ta.m dhamma.m paccavekkhantassa tasmi.m dhamme pabhedagata.m~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. --------------- (7) "Ariiyati--'to honor, to serve'. Not in P.T.S. Dict. Cf. ger. ara.niiya (MA.i,21,173), also not in P.T.S. Dict. explained by Majjhima .Tikaa as 'to be honored. (payiruupasitabbaa). 26916 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > S: > Many of the criticisms (if not all;-)) do > > > not stand > > > > up to careful scrutiny of the texts. > > > ... > I find this example moot. Could you please provide another? .... I think that some of the comments you are providing on the threads on anapanasati with Nina and Michael could qualify;-) I’m not going to buy into the threads for now, however, as you’e already in good company and I’m going to be busy for a couple of days. I would just encourage you or anyone else to consider carefully and patiently as these texts are not easy and contain a wealth of meaning. Hopefully, there won’t be any ‘conflicts’ in the texts by the end. Metta, Sarah ======= 26917 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Hello Nina, Yes, as I mentioned there is a chapter in the book dedicated to Buddhaghosa. I bought this book to get a better understanding about the differences between Theravada and the other Buddhist schools. I was extremely pleased with his writings, it is not for beginners and the first time I read the book I really struggled, but now I highly recommend it. Metta Michael >From: nina van gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:07:08 +0100 > >Dear Michael, >does Kalupahana give examples of Buddhaghosa where we can see that other >ideas were introduced? >Nina. >op 11-11-2003 22:52 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > > > This is so because it is not impossible to > > trace some metaphysical speculations, such as those of the >Sarvastivadins, > > the Sautrantikas, and even the Yogacarins, in the works attributed to > > Buddhaghosa. What is most significant is that these ideas are introduced >in > > an extremely subtle manner, and that it took a few centuries for them to > > blossom into full-fledged, openly stated metaphysical positions. > 26918 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:57am Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > > S: > Many of the criticisms (if not all;-)) do > > > > not stand > > > > > up to careful scrutiny of the texts. > > > > > ... > > I find this example moot. Could you please provide another? > .... > I think that some of the comments you are providing on the threads on > anapanasati with Nina and Michael could qualify;-) I'm not going to buy > into the threads for now, however, as you'e already in good company and > I'm going to be busy for a couple of days. James: "You always end with a jade's trick; I know you of old." --Beatrice, Much Ado About Nothing > I would just encourage you or anyone else to consider carefully and > patiently as these texts are not easy and contain a wealth of meaning. James: I would encourage you to do the same. > Hopefully, there won't be any `conflicts' in the texts by the end. James: Hoping doesn't always make it so. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > Metta, James 26919 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan) Dear Michael, Suan Lu Zwa, a member of this group, wrote an article about Kalupahana's book, I think. He might have some comments too. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Nina, > > Yes, as I mentioned there is a chapter in the book dedicated to Buddhaghosa. > I bought this book to get a better understanding about the differences > between Theravada and the other Buddhist schools. I was extremely pleased > with his writings, it is not for beginners and the first time I read the > book I really struggled, but now I highly recommend it. > > Metta > Michael > > > >From: nina van gorkom > >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa > >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:07:08 +0100 > > > >Dear Michael, > >does Kalupahana give examples of Buddhaghosa where we can see that other > >ideas were introduced? > >Nina. > >op 11-11-2003 22:52 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > > > > > This is so because it is not impossible to > > > trace some metaphysical speculations, such as those of the > >Sarvastivadins, > > > the Sautrantikas, and even the Yogacarins, in the works attributed to > > > Buddhaghosa. What is most significant is that these ideas are introduced > >in > > > an extremely subtle manner, and that it took a few centuries for them to > > > blossom into full-fledged, openly stated metaphysical positions. > > 26920 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hello Sarah, Here is the link to the web site I maintain. As everyone will notice it has the same layout/organization as the Access to Insight web site. This was done in agreement with John Bullit. I did that because of my lack of expertise in web design, because I liked Johns' work very much, and to make it easier for people who were familiar with the site in english. http://www.acessoaoinsight.net Metta Michael >From: Sarah >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati >Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 06:07:21 +0000 (GMT) > >Hi Michael, (Icaro & any Newbies) > >I greatly appreciated your introduction. We have at least a couple of >other Brazilian members: - Leonardo who is a full-time lurker and Icaro >who you’ll ‘meet’ very soon;-) Icaro likes to study the Visuddhimagga in >German or check out Indonesian websites, when he needs a break from >Portuguese, English, Pali and I forget what else. You’ll get on well. > > --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Sarah, ><..> > > Currently I am retired and fully dedicated to the Dhamma. My > > interest > > in Buddhism started about 10 years ago and gradually has increased over > > the > > years. About 3 years ago I started a web site with sutta and essays > > translation to Portuguese. >..... >This is great to hear. Hopefully, we’ll hear plenty from you. Perhaps you >can give us a link to your website, so we can take a peek. There are bound >to be other members here who speak/understand Portuguese. >..... ><..> >I would love to live in a Theravada country to > > enjoy > > Buddhism from the inside but currently am bound to the place I live by > > my > > son who is still a freshman in high school. But after he gets to college > > I > > hope that wish will materialize. >.... >I think the main factor in ‘enjoying Buddhism from the inside’ has to do >with right understanding and the development of awareness rather than >living in a particular place. Now you have time and access to the >Teachings and obviously are making the best use of resources. Nonetheless, >hope you can travel and maybe meet us in Asia one day;-) >..... >M:> Going back to our conversation, I have to say that I am not that > > familiar > > with the writings of Buddhaghosa. It’s funny because the Visuddhimagga > > was > > one of the very first books I bought on Theravada Buddhism but never > > came > > around to really read and study. >..... >Let me see if we can help, especially given your interest in Pali as >well;-) > >First, let me explain to you and any other Newbies that at present, we’re >working through the last part (part 111) of the Visuddhimagga, transl by >~Naa.namoli, as a group text. This is the large section of the text, >starting at ch X1V and called Understanding (Pa~n~naa). It helps to have a >copy of the text, but in any case the installments posted so far can be >found, together with the Pali, in Files, almost at the bottom where it >says: z VismX1Vlinks.htm, posted by Jon. >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ >It would be easy to print these out. > >Each installment on list (given by Larry) is discussed and often Nina >gives extra details and sub-commentary translations. The latter and some >of the more detailed notes can be found in U.P. under ‘Visuddhimagga’, >almost at the end: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > >We’d be delighted if you or anyone else join in the threads anytime. >You’re also most welcome to pick up any of the previous installments for >further discussion. No questions or comments are too basic or too late. >.... >Before this difficult text, we went through Nina’s ‘Abhidhamma in Daily >Life’ and Soma’s translation of the Satipatthana Sutta commentary and >sub-commentary in the same way. If anyone wants help locating any of the >threads or discussions, pls ask. >..... >M:>I have only occasionally browsed > > through > > it. But one of the critics raised by DK in his book is the use by > > Buddhaghosa of essencialist perspectives which cannot be traced back to > > the > > original scriptures of the Canon. >..... >I think we’d need to look at specific references to discuss this any >further. I’m not saying it is so in this case (I have no idea at all), but >often we’ve found here that the most vehement critics of Buddhaghosa, the >commentaries or the Abhidhamma are people who have studied these texts >very little if at all. Many of the criticisms (if not all;-)) do not stand >up to careful scrutiny of the texts. > >One thing for sure, all the teachings revolve around the understanding of >presently arising ultimate realities (paramatha dhammas) or khandhas and >the knowledge that these are anatta. It just depends whether there are the >right conditions for there to be enough detachment and wisdom to >appreciate the reminders from any of these texts when we read and consider >them, as I see it. > >With metta, > >Sarah > >p.s Icaro: thx for thinking of us at busy bootcamp - metta and kisses from >all at DSG too;-) We’re counting the days til you and Dhammasangani >return. >===== 26921 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:59am Subject: Re: Accumulations, Conditions and Anatta - Interesting observation Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Where did you get the idea that the concept of anatta did not allow > for a supervisory self making decisions? Note that I am not asking > whether the concept of anatta allowed for a supervisory self making > decisions or not. > > I don't see how the idea whether there is free will or not relates > to the Buddha's teaching. To me it is a philosophical issue. I am a little confused here. To me, a supervisory self making decisions is the antithesis of anatta. I might even go so far as to say that "no supervisory self making decisions" is a way of defining anatta. Victor, if you feel that this is wrong view, please help me to understand (please do not reply with another question). Metta, Rob M :-) 26922 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:01am Subject: Re: Karuna - not bearing others' suffering Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > (I've lost the other thread) > > We were discussing the function of compassion as `not bearing others' > suffering' (Vism 1X,94). > > I suggested this was > > >a literal translation. (??maybe dhara - bearing, holding - > ***** > Soon after, I noticed that the same word I was thinking of came up in a > Vism thread on the primary rupas: > > "But without differentiation they are > elements (dhaatu) beacuse of bearing (dhaara.na) their own > characteristics, because of grasping (aadaana) suffering, and because of > sorting out (aadhaana) suffering (see Ch. XV, 19). (29) This is how they > should be given attention as to word meaning." > > Dhaara.na - bearing, holding, supporting. So compassion doesn't `bear, > hold or support' others suffering in the sense of wishing to remove it. > > Any comments welcome! (I'm just assuming it's the same word used). The Visuddhimagga and Atthasalini describe the function of karuna (compassion) as not bearing others' suffering. I find this to be a simple technical definition and so I am confused why you might have an issue with the term "bearing". Please help me to understand your concern. Metta, Rob M :-) 26923 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi Shakti, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > You wrote: The string on my wrist is a condition to remind me of my recent > kusala kamma. Putting the ten bases of meritorius actions on a "to > do list" as part of daily planning is another way of creating more > conditons to support more kusala. > > Planning for kusala is itself wholesome. Performing kusala with all > one's heart is wholesome. Sharing the merits accrued is wholesome. > Remembering past kusala is wholesome. I am using "modern business > concepts" (to do list, daily planning, etc.) to support timeless > wisdom.that you want to share the merit > _________________________ > > Shakti: I was wondering how do you share the merits that you accrued?? > > Hope that you had a wonderful visit with Khun Sujin, Sukin, Betty and others. Let us know how it went. > With metta, Shakti There are a number of ways in which one can share merits. There is a wonderful ceremony in the Sri Lankan tradition. You request a monk to perform a transference of merit ceremony and tell the monk of the person to whom the merits should be dedicated (they have to be dead; one cannot transfer merit to a living person). If there are with your spouse / family, all people hold onto a cord, one end of which is held by the monk (this creates a metaphorical link between the parties). The monk will chant in Pali for five to fifteen minutes (at some point, they insert the name of the departed person) and then ask you to pour water from a small vase into a small cup in a larger bowl (the water will overflow the cup and spill into the bowl). While you are pouring, the monk continues to chant. During the entire ceremony, you are asked to concentrate your attention on the departed one to whom the merit is being transferred. When the ceremony is over, you use the water from the cup and bowl to water a plant. Sorry, I am not familiar with the details of the other traditions, but I am certain that they have corresponding ceremonies (perhaps others can describe similar ceremonies in other traditions). At the end of each of my Abhidhamma lessons, somebody from the class reads the following passage aloud, "Let us recall to our minds this morning, that we came to the temple with the sole purpose to study the Dhamma. With good faith (saddha) and wise attention (sati), we learn and understand some of the Lord Buddha's teaching. Whenever there is any doubt or wrong understanding of the teaching, we seek to clear our doubts and straighten our views. With proper understanding of the Dhamma, we can now put it into practice. The right understanding of the Dhamma will produce right thoughts that, in turn, give rise to right action, right speech and right livelihood. With such a right frame of mind, we can face the realities of life. May the merits (punna) that we gained through listening to the Dhamma, discussing the Dhamma and straightening our views, help us in overcoming any difficulties that we may face. May all beings inhabiting space and earth, Devas and Nagas of mighty powers, share these merits that we have acquired and may they long protect the Buddha Sasana. Let these merits accrue to our departed relatives and may they be happy. May all beings share these merits we have acquired, may it contribute greatly to their happiness. By the grace of the merits that we have acquired, may we never follow the foolish, but only the wise until we reach the final goal - Nibbana." After this is read aloud, the class recite in unison, "Saddhu, saddhu, saddhu" ("saddhu" means, "well said"). I am not sure of the source of these words, they were used in the class before I started teaching, so I kept up the tradition. A third way to transfer merits is to simply think of the departed person and think to yourself "may the merits that I have accrued be transferred to " or something similar. If a Pali phrase makes the occasion more solemn for you, you can repeat three times, "Idam me natinam hotu, sukhita hontu natayo" which means "Let this (merit) accrue to our relatives, and may they be happy!". From one perspective, the actual words used are not that critical because what matters is the internal volition rather than the external language. On the other hand, I like to use Pali for this ritual. I have a strong affinity to the Dhamma. Because of this strong attraction to the Dhamma, I am convinced that in a previous life, I must have studied the Dhamma. I have no idea of what my past nationality or mother tongue was when I studied the Dhamma in my past life, but I irrespective of that, I suspect that I chanted in Pali. When I chant in Pali in this life, this acts as a condition to evoke the feeling of reverence from past similar experiences. Anyway, that is my personal logic, feel free to chant in English, if that is what you feel comfortable with. I have given three different ways of transferring merit (ceremony, reciting a long passage, reciting a short passage). Pick the one that suits you and suits the situation. Metta, Rob M :-) 26924 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:05am Subject: Traffic Lights Hi All, As part of my job, I am constantly travelling across Asia. You might think that traffic lights are one of the common features in different countries, but it is not so... I was recently in Taipei, Taiwan. Beside the traffic light, they have a little green man that indicates when it is safe to walk – this is common in most countries. However, in Taipei, they have gone high-tech. The little green man is animated. You can see him walking. In fact, as the time for the green light comes close to expiring, the pace of the green man's walking increases. Just before the light turns red, the little green man is virtually running. What is the subconscious message that this image passes to an observer? Now let's consider New Delhi, India. Normally, the red light of the traffic light is large, round and red. In New Delhi, they have taken some black paint and coloured in part of the red light so that when the red light is on, it shines in large red letters, "RELAX". What a simple, low-tech yet valuable message! Normally, our society tells us, "Don't just sit there, do something!" The traffic light in Delhi is asking us "Don't do anything, just sit there!" Relax, be aware of the moment, what a great message to give! So the next time that you are stopped at a red light, seize the opportunity to RELAX and be aware of the moment. You don't have to be on a meditation cushion to practice Satipatthana. Metta, Rob M :-) 26925 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati James, >>When the Buddha said cosmos he meant just that: the cosmos (space, >>planets, and stars, etc.). He didn't mean a code word for nama-rupa. Why >>do you assume that? Here are some sources: Sabba Sutta (SN XXXV.23) "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Suñña Sutta (SN XXXV.85) Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is void?" "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. "The ear is empty... "The nose is empty... "The tongue is empty... "The body is empty... "The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty." Metta Michael >From: "buddhatrue" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:11:52 -0000 > >Hi Michael, > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > wrote: > > James, > > > > I will jump into this discussion if you don't mind. I can recall >Bhante > > Gunaratana mentioning that `the body within the body' is simply >referring to > > the breath. The breath is a body, the breath-body, which takes >place within > > another body. > >James: I would agree with that interpretation also. I don't think >that his interpretation and mine contradict each other. It can be >the body-body, breath-body, and cosmos-body. They are all included. > > > > > I don't fully agree with your reading of the Rohitassa Sutta. The >sutta > > mentions that the cosmos is within the body but also perception & >intelect > > which is an indication of nama-rupa, and that would make more >sense, i.e. > > the world or cosmos, within the context of the teachings, is nama- >rupa. > >James: First of all, nama-rupa isn't part of the Buddha's teachings. >If you will get that idea out of your head right from the start, you >will understand where I am coming from. When the Buddha said cosmos >he meant just that: the cosmos (space, planets, and stars, etc.). He >didn't mean a code word for nama-rupa. Why do you assume that. You >know, reading the commentaries, one would think that the Buddha never >really meant what he said, there was always some hidden meaning to >what he said. He said that within this fathom-long body is >intellect, of course, but there is also the cosmos. How is the >entire cosmos within your body? Meditate and you will get a >glimpse. Become enlightened and you will know first hand. > > > > Metta > > Michael > > > > Metta, James 26926 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is Self-power? Hello Thomas, How can something which is pure be defiled? If it is pure, it cannot be defiled at the same time. Where in the Canon does it say that the mind is pure? Metta Michael >From: nordwest >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: sangha >Subject: [dsg] What is Self-power? >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 23:30:51 -0800 (PST) > >The term "Self-power" would mean, that there is a "Self" that has power. >But - I suppose, we all agree - that there is no Self, the term "Self" is >totally empty, or in other words, an illusion. So then, what is it that has >power, if there is no Self? The answer is, the Mind has power. > >OK, so let us see... what is the mind? Original it is a Pure Mind, the mind >of the Buddha you may say, the enlightened mind. But our mind is defiled, >it is not pure. Where does the mind get it's knowledge from? Don't answer >with 'the brain, the eyes, the ears, the senses..." because this is not >correct. If it were correct, than all the buddhas would be blind, deaf, and >senseless beings.. I don't think they are such handicapped. We rely on the >eyes and ears, because we are too stupid to understand that we are not this >body at all, we are merely "imprisoned" by our limited senses. > >The Pure Mind has knowledge about everything, it is the enlightened mind >that is beyond time and space, it travels the universe and there is nothing >it doesn't understand or know, it is our original mind. > >How come the mind of the Buddha, the Pure Mind, can grasp the entire >universe, all that is? The answer is: because it is One with everything >that is. There are no two things such as universe-here and universe-there. >There is no space and time for the buddha. > >So, we see things with this very mind.. only that our mind is defiled. But >it is still one with everything... we just have no clear view to the >universal wisdom. In other words, our Self-power is in reality the power of >all that is, the power of the One. There is no difference, no dualism. No >mind is seperated from anything. > >What is the Buddha? He is one with the universe too. - The buddha is One >with the universe, and your mind is One with universe. So the Other-power >is Self-power anyway, if you want it or not. ;) You use this Other-power a >billion times a day without being aware of it. > >So when we recite the Nembutsu, the buddha-name, or visualize the Buddha, >or contemplate the buddha, then we have Pure Thoughts. The Pure Thought >cleans the defiled mind and when this Pure Thought becomes a samadhi, a >constant thought, than the mind is constantly pure. Than you are >enlightened. > >So the "Other power" is in reality totally "Self-power". The Buddha wis >never seperated from us, or from our mind... only WE think that we are >seperated beings... well, this is why we are in samsara, isn't it? > >NAMU AMIDA BUTSU! Yours in the Dharma, >Thomas 26927 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi James and others I think there some points need to be cleared before proceeding in the further discussion of this issue. One qn - is mindfulness of breath is = to breathing meditation. How do we define meditation - one-pointed concentration or insight investigation. Are we looking at Sati sutta as a whole or just the front part - a piecemeal investigation on just the breath. On my personal experience, mediation is good for calming of mind but is such calming of mind could lead to attachment to so called "calm". The question is, is there a danger that we might not known or aware that we will be attached to calm? Whether such mindfulness of the breath is for the Ariya disciples and your dispute which I say is premature to conclude that Buddhaghosa is wrong. I personnally do not believe in one-pointed concentration meditation, I prefer investigation meditation bc it put the chances of attachment to calm lesser. If my memory does not fail me, Buddha does not talk about one-pointed concentratoin meditation as a unique subject in all mindfullness suttas, it usually emcompasses more important elements like movement, compostion of the body etc. To me, it is impt to note this difference because it shows that one-pointed meditation of mindfullness is not what he has in mind for us, it could be just a perlude to investigation or to insight. As to another question I think by Victor why this mindfullness of breathing is for the Moha-citta person, is just a simple explanation, a Moha-citta person "forgets" or is not constantly aware the danger of moha lurking in the shadows. That is also why neutral feeling is so easy to forget bc the caused is moha wheras the arising of pleasant and unpleasant is easily being reminded. Just like an earlier qn why a person does not know the mistake is punished more bc he does not know the mistake at all and this meant the capacity to change and to prevent the mistake from happening again is very unlikely. Whereas a person who make a mistake knowing is punish less bc the person has the capacity to change for the better. These are just my personal thoughts. Kind regards Ken O 26928 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi RobM Just a thought as I do not know the traditional practise but are these three ways endorse in the ancient texts Kind rgds Ken O 26929 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi Ken ), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Just a thought as I do not know the traditional practise but are > these three ways endorse in the ancient texts Absolutely not. As I remember (can't find the Sutta at the moment), the Buddha encouraged sharing of merits with departed ones, but there was no formula handed down. Frankly, it is what is inside (volition) that counts, not what is outside (rites and rituals). If you have different words or a different practice, I would say that they are equally valid - in fact, if they are special to you, I would say that they are even better than the three that I listed because words or a practice that is special to you will invoke a stronger volition. Metta, Rob M :-) 26930 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:20am Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > James, > > >>When the Buddha said cosmos he meant just that: the cosmos (space, > >>planets, and stars, etc.). He didn't mean a code word for nama- rupa. Why > >>do you assume that? > > Here are some sources: > > Sabba Sutta (SN XXXV.23) Hi Michael, These are beautiful sutta quotes but you didn't provide any analysis linking them to a position. To me these quotes are describing the five aggregates, which are the All, and the Cosmos…and can be known through this fathom-long body. But these quotes are not describing nama-rupa. Nama-Rupa as a theory detailed in the Abhidhamma is quite different than this. According to the Abhidhamma, nama and rupa can exist separate from each other-nama can have its own agenda independent of rupa, and rupa can have qualities not dependent on nama. That isn't what the Buddha taught. As these suttas state, they are always pared together. Please explain further so that I can know how you see these suttas in relation to the theory of nama- rupa. Metta, James 26931 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:32am Subject: anapanasatisutta, part I a We read in the Anapanasati sutta (MN no. 118): (Introductory Section) 1] Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Savatthi in the Eastern Park, in the Palace of Migara's Mother, together with many very well-known elder disciples -- the Venerable Sariputta, the Venerable Maha-Moggallana, the Venerable Maha Kassapa, the Venerable Maha Kaccana, the Venerable Maha Kotthita, the Venerable Maha Kappina, the Venerable Cunda, the Venerable Anuruddha, the Venerable Revata, the Venerable Ananda, and other very well known elder disciples. 2] Now on that occasion elder Bhikkhus had been teaching and instructing new Bhikkhus; some elder Bhikkhus had been teaching and instructing ten new Bhikkhus, some elder Bhikkhus had been teaching and instructing twenty. . . thirty. . . forty new Bhikkhus. And the new Bhikkhus, taught and instructed by the elder Bhikkhus, had achieved successive stages of high distinction. 3] On that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, on the full-moon night of the Pavarana ceremony,[9] The Blessed One was seated in the open surrounded by the Sangha of Bhikkhus. Then, surveying the silent Sangha of Bhikkhus, he addressed them thus: 4] "Bhikkhus, I am content with this progress. My mind is content with this progress. So arouse still more energy to attain the unattained, to achieve the unachieved, to realize the unrealized. I shall wait here at Savatthi for the Komudi full moon of the fourth month." ******* Mindfulness of Breathing has been translated by Ven. Nanamoli, with extracts from the Co. to this sutta and the Path of Discrimination. He has helpful notes, but he gives only abridged translations of the Co. Invitation, pavaara.naa: After the rainy season, each monk invites the Sangha to point out his faults during the preceding period. (N: How this induces humbleness of mind and respect the monks should have for each other!) N: As we read in the Intro, the sutta was spoken near Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery. The great disciples were present. There were arahats, non-returners, once-returners, sotapannas. Moreover those who were developing the four satipatthanas, and the factors leading to enlightenment, who were developing metta and other meditation subjects and also mindfulness on breathing. The Invitation ceremony was put off for one month until the Komudi festival, so that the monks could more fully develop excellent qualities. The Co. explains why the Buddha wanted to wait for the Komudi festival in Savatthi, to have the Invitation ceremony, the pavarana. He waited because otherwise the bhikkhus would go away and travel all over Savatthi. The Buddha showed his great compassion because he thought of the bhikkhus who were still weak in samatha and vipassana and who would not be able to have excellent attainments. He considered the difficulty of finding lodgings if the monks would go traveling. The elders (of sixty rainy seasons) were allowed to take lodgings first and in that case other monks would have trouble finding them. Since the Buddha wanted to stay near Savatthi, there would not be such worry and the monks could further develop samatha and vipassana and reach distinctions. N: In the Sutta we read that the Buddha said: Note of Ven. Nanamoli: this refers to arahatship. 26932 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Hi James, op 12-11-2003 21:30 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: >>> Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & >>> intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the > origination >>> of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of > practice >>> leading to the cessation of the cosmos." >>> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-045.html >>> >>> This is what I believe the Buddha meant by `knowing the body in > the >>> body.' Within this finite bag of skin and bones body that we all >>> occupy there is a fathom long body, an infinite body. That is > what >>> we should know. > > James: Nina, the words "fathom" and "cosmos" are both variations of > infinity. If you can't see what is plainly obvious in this sutta, I > am not going to be able to show you over the Internet. This is a > matter we would have to discuss face to face. N: Yes, good, good, do come to Thailand end January!! We can all be together. ATI translates the Pali loko as cosmos. But loko is world. A question of translation. Fathomlong, Pali has: ka.lebara: the body. No word about fathom, as far as I can see. Now, this is also used for a carcass! Here we have your transl of bag of skin and bones. Spot on! But I still think of the world as the five aggregates. That is the world that has to be known. Remember the sutta I quoted: the world, the world, it crumbles away. What is the world: physical phenomena and mental phenomena, five aggregates. Many suttas, especially in the Kindred Sayings IV, confirm this. Another quote, but this is Abhidhamma (Do not read, close your eyes, this is for Larry and others): Book of Analysis, Ch 2: the eye-base: this is a world... the ear-base: this is a world, etc. Actually, this is the same as the sutta about the world. The Co to the Rohitassa sutta speaks of the world of conditioned realities (sankhara loka). Infinite: what does it mean? It makes me think of jhana: infinite consciousnes, a subject of arupa jhana. A person may, because of meditation experiences, even in former lives, really experience the body as infinite, go outside his body, have extraordinary experiences. I do not deny this. But he should know this for what it is: conditioned phenomena, accumulations, accumulations, James! One should not attach too much importance to it or take it for my experience. These experiences do not last, are non-self. This was not the meaning of body in the Rohitassa sutta. Another cross reference to the "Net of Views", Brahmajalasutta, transl by B.B.: We read about many different views. p. 73, about the Finitude and Infinitude of the World: about the extensionists. Second View: We then read: All these views in the Brahmajalasutta were *not* the Buddha's teaching. And we also read: I think of the five aggregates here and now. They fall away, and that is what has to be known. >> J: My question is very simple: According to the >>> commentaries, is mindfulness of breathing appropriate for most > people >>> or only a select few? .... N: In this sutta the Buddha speaks to very talented monks who had great accumulations for samatha to the degree of jhana and could use jhana as a base for insight. For this, we have to go back to the beginning of the sutta. I will post it in smaller parts, this part I posted was too long. There is much material here for reflection and the sutta is not easy. I still did not answer you directly. Why? I do not want to make statements just now. I would like people to study carefully the sutta and commentary, and not only the beginning of the sutta, but until the end, about the factors of enlightenment. I would like people to draw conclusions themselves. > James: You say a lot here without answering the question. Did the > Buddha expound on extraneous matters when he was asked a question and > then tell the questioner to be 'patient'? No, he answered whatever > question presented to him simply and directly...so much so that his > answers were celebrated. Please give me a direct answer, so that I > may celebrate. N: I do not expect you to celebrate anything I write ;-)). The Buddha also said that the Dhamma is subtle, deep, difficult to understand. We cannot expect to understand immediately all the subtle points contained in a sutta. >> J: First the Visuddhimagga explains the sutta section, "Breathing > in >>> long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he > knows >>> ³I breathe out long²," as "Next he defines the in-breaths and out- >>> breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the >>> states associated with the consciousness as the > immaterial...Having >>> defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition.." But then >>> later it is stated in the Visuddhimagga, to explain the recurrent >>> term "Body within the Body", as "Why is the word body used twice > in >>> the phrase: Contemplating the body in the body? For determining > the >>> object and isolating it, and for sifting out thoroughly of the >>> apparent compact nature of things like continuity (santati). >> Because there is no contemplation of feeling, citta or dhammas in > the >>> body, but just the contemplating of the body only..." >> >> N: He contemplates bodily phenomena, and not at the same time mental >> phenomena. He learns that what he takes for "My important body" are > only >> fleeting material phenomena. > > James: My point is that you cannont contemplate bodily phenomena > without also contemplating mental phenomena. They go hand in hand > and are codependent. N: Right. When one says, I will just apply myself to the first satipatthana, mindfulness of body, it means he has to be aware of mental phenomena as well. The person who emerges from jhana attained by Mindfulness of Breathing, has to be aware of both mental and physical phenomena. But only one object appears at a time, not two. The difference between mental phenomena and physical phenomena has to be clearly known, as distinct from each other. Otherwise their arising and falling away one at a time, their impermanence, cannot be realized. In this first tetrad, group of four, breath as a body is stressed. It is tangible object. But being aware of it should not exclude mind, as you say above. In the next tetrad feeling is stressed as you will see. In the next one consciousness, in the last one dhammas. This is paralel with the four satipatthanas. Here is the sketch of the whole sutta we should keep in mind when following the long commentary. Thus again, in the four satipatthanas of body, feeling, consciousness and dhamma, there should be awareness all the time of bodily phenomena and mental phenomena. They are grouped as four subjects to help the listener. One section may appeal more to this person, another section to that person. The Buddha had many diverse ways to explain realities. Nina. 26933 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV 38, 39, 40, 41 Hi Larry, op 13-11-2003 04:23 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "The ear's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is > ready for the impact of sounds;..." > I think "primary elements" here refers to the sensitive matter of the > sense organs. We could say the 4 element group repeatedly arises in a > certain continuum that is _ready_ for the impact of sound etc. N: Earsense is a derived rupa but it has as foundation the four primary rupas. The Tiika repeats that it is derived matter. The four great elements are the proximate cause. L: This > means the ear doesn't cease to exist when we see. N: Kamma keeps on producing earsense. Never stops. It arises and falls away. It is ready for impact: it is fit, apt (araha). It is a rupa that is capable to receive sound, so that sound can be heard. It shows us that there are many conditions for hearing. L: I'm not sure if the "impact" of sound with > sensitive matter is the same as "contact" (phassa). N: Contact is mental, a cetasika arising with each citta. Impact, or impingement is also designated by the word reacting. Here, this refers to rupas. It helps me to consult the Dhammasangani and also the footnotes. As to the Tika, 37 is very long, still many paras before I am at the point where it is rendered in the footnote about kamma you quoted. 37 is almost three pages, I have to make choices, but get stuck with unlisted words. I have no access to a Pali Pali dictionary. But I just discovered unlisted words in the Dispeller of Delusion, co to the Book of Analysis. And also: Ch XV, Bases and Elements. I enjoy it more to go slowly. It means only that I get more and more behind. Nina. 26934 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:32am Subject: Re: Accumulations, Conditions and Anatta - Interesting observation Hi Rob, So you didn't indicate where you get the idea that the concept of anatta did not allow for a supervisory self making decisions. Let's go back to what the Buddha taught regarding the conditioned: Feeling is not self. Feeling is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Likewise, form is not self. Form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Likewise for perception, mental fabrications, and consciousness. I have indicated to you what the Buddha taught regarding the conditioned. The idea that the concept of anatta did not allow for a supervisory self making decisions is like a clutter. And as long as you hold on to that idea, it will block you in clearly understanding what the Buddha taught as it is. Only you can clear out the clutter and abandon for yourself the idea that the concept of anatta did not allow for a supervisory self making decisions. And it can be hard for one to do so. Sometime one has attachment to things and throwing them away can be a very uncomfortable thing to do. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Victor, 26935 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi James and others > > I think there some points need to be cleared before proceeding in the > further discussion of this issue. Hi Ken O and All, Thanks for the post. I don't think I necessarily disagree with anything you have to say about meditation. There can be an attachment to calm, such as in Jhana development, that every practitioner will have to face and overcome. If you want to side- step this issue by practicing Vipassana meditation I don't disagree. From my understanding they can both lead to nibbana. The only difference is that Jhana development creates stronger concentration which can then be applied to insight investigation more effectively. It is a trade-off. Do whichever works best for you. As far as Buddhaghosa and the appropriateness of Anapanasati for different individuals, the jury is still out. I haven't said that Buddhaghosa is wrong because I still haven't been told what Buddhaghosa wrote. I don't have a copy of all the commentaries and that I why I have asked Nina…or anyone…to provide a specific quote. Nina has chosen instead to give me a section by section analysis with commentary of the entire Anapanasati sutta; which is nice I suppose but doesn't answer the question. It threatens to drown the issue (which in Congress they call 'filibustering'). Do I feel that I am unqualified to make judgments of Buddhaghosa (or the commentaries, or the Abhidhamma) because I don't have personl copies of them and haven't studied them from end to end? No. Does a person need to drink the whole ocean to know that it tastes salty? Metta, James 26936 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 0:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Ken, Speaking from my own experience and understanding, in the meditative practice of mindfulness of breathing, both mindfulness and concentration, both insight and tranquillity are to be developed. Regarding your concern about attachment to calm, I have not come across in the discourses in which the Buddha addressed that problem, if there is such problem at all. In fact, the Buddha said the following in the discourse: "Now, there is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html Please also read the paragragh preceding to the paragraph above in the discourse. The Buddha clearly stated 1. what is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, what is not to be feared, and 2. what is not to be cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, what is to be feared. Peace, Victor PS. I did not asked the question "why is the mindfulness of breathing for the Moha-citta person?" I suggest quoting what others actually said in the message in order to avoid putting words in others' mouth, intentionally or unintentionally. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi James and others [snip] 26937 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasatisutta, part I a Nina, Quick question. You know the name in Pali for this category? "The elders (of sixty rainy seasons)" I only know thera & mahathera. Metta Michael >From: nina van gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: [dsg] anapanasatisutta, part I a >Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:32:17 +0100 > >We read in the Anapanasati sutta (MN no. 118): > >(Introductory Section) > > 1] Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at >Savatthi in the Eastern > Park, in the Palace of Migara's Mother, together with many very >well-known >elder disciples -- > the Venerable Sariputta, the Venerable Maha-Moggallana, the >Venerable >Maha >Kassapa, the > Venerable Maha Kaccana, the Venerable Maha Kotthita, the Venerable >Maha >Kappina, the > Venerable Cunda, the Venerable Anuruddha, the Venerable Revata, the >Venerable Ananda, and > other very well known elder disciples. > > 2] Now on that occasion elder Bhikkhus had been teaching and >instructing >new Bhikkhus; some > elder Bhikkhus had been teaching and instructing ten new Bhikkhus, >some >elder Bhikkhus had > been teaching and instructing twenty. . . thirty. . . forty new >Bhikkhus. >And the new Bhikkhus, > taught and instructed by the elder Bhikkhus, had achieved >successive >stages >of high distinction. > > 3] On that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, on the >full-moon >night of the Pavarana > ceremony,[9] The Blessed One was seated in the open surrounded by >the >Sangha of Bhikkhus. > Then, surveying the silent Sangha of Bhikkhus, he addressed them >thus: > > 4] "Bhikkhus, I am content with this progress. My mind is content >with this >progress. So arouse > still more energy to attain the unattained, to achieve the >unachieved, to >realize the unrealized. I > shall wait here at Savatthi for the Komudi full moon of the fourth >month." > >******* >Mindfulness of Breathing has been translated by Ven. Nanamoli, with >extracts >from the Co. to this sutta and the Path of Discrimination. He has helpful >notes, but he gives only abridged translations of the Co. >Invitation, pavaara.naa: After the rainy season, each monk invites the >Sangha to point out his faults during the preceding period. (N: How this >induces humbleness of mind and respect the monks should have for each >other!) >N: As we read in the Intro, the sutta was spoken near Savatthi in the >Eastern Monastery. The great disciples were present. There were arahats, >non-returners, once-returners, sotapannas. Moreover those who were >developing the four satipatthanas, and the factors leading to >enlightenment, >who were developing metta and other meditation subjects and also >mindfulness >on breathing. >The Invitation ceremony was put off for one month until the Komudi >festival, >so that the monks could more fully develop excellent qualities. > >The Co. explains why the Buddha wanted to wait for the Komudi festival in >Savatthi, to have the Invitation ceremony, the pavarana. He waited because >otherwise the bhikkhus would go away and travel all over Savatthi. The >Buddha showed his great compassion because he thought of the bhikkhus who >were still weak in samatha and vipassana and who would not be able to have >excellent attainments. He considered the difficulty of finding lodgings if >the monks would go traveling. The elders (of sixty rainy seasons) were >allowed to take lodgings first and in that case other monks would have >trouble finding them. Since the Buddha wanted to stay near Savatthi, there >would not be such worry and the monks could further develop samatha and >vipassana and reach distinctions. >N: In the Sutta we read that the Buddha said: > still more energy to attain the unattained, to achieve the >unachieved, to >realize the unrealized. I > shall wait here at Sivatthi for the Komudi full moon of the fourth >month.> >Note of Ven. Nanamoli: this refers to arahatship. > 26938 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati James, I am not familiar with what you are quoting from the Abhidhamma, that nama and rupa can exist separate from each other. It only rings a bell in relation to immaterial planes of existence where there is no rupa, only nama. Is that what you mean? Apart from that the existence of nama and rupa with separate agendas would in my view contradict what is in the suttas. Metta Michael >From: "buddhatrue" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati >Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:20:09 -0000 > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > wrote: > > James, > > > > >>When the Buddha said cosmos he meant just that: the cosmos >(space, > > >>planets, and stars, etc.). He didn't mean a code word for nama- >rupa. Why > > >>do you assume that? > > > > Here are some sources: > > > > Sabba Sutta (SN XXXV.23) > > >Hi Michael, > >These are beautiful sutta quotes but you didn't provide any analysis >linking them to a position. To me these quotes are describing the >five aggregates, which are the All, and the Cosmos…and can be known >through this fathom-long body. But these quotes are not describing >nama-rupa. Nama-Rupa as a theory detailed in the Abhidhamma is quite >different than this. According to the Abhidhamma, nama and rupa can >exist separate from each other-nama can have its own agenda >independent of rupa, and rupa can have qualities not dependent on >nama. That isn't what the Buddha taught. As these suttas state, >they are always pared together. Please explain further so that I can >know how you see these suttas in relation to the theory of nama- >rupa. > >Metta, James 26939 From: nordwest Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Michael / What is Self-power? Dear Michael, we are all buddhas, but our mind has many so-called "imprints" of habits accumulated in samsara and of faulty deeds and misconceptions. The best way to imagine the Mind is to understand it as a mirror. It reflects the world in the same way as its defilements are, for example: you may know a person who is always in a hurry, always under stress. This is because of a mind-habit. If such a restless person sits on a park bank next to a buddhist master, we will see this picture: One restless world, one still world. Two worlds, but one reality. If the restless person starts talking with the master, and the master is able to calm down the person, makes him think about his way of life, the person could work out the pattern of mind that created this bad habit. Like this, the mirror will be cleaner on this very habit mainly, not in general of course. So if the person manages to be less restless, all of a sudden his world we be no more a restless one. - You see, we create our own worlds of illusion, totally. Forget the Canon for a day, and be still, look inside! You always had the Pure Mind, polish the mirror and regain it. Gassho, Thomas Michael Beisert wrote:Hello Thomas, How can something which is pure be defiled? If it is pure, it cannot be defiled at the same time. Where in the Canon does it say that the mind is pure? 26940 From: connie Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 0:26pm Subject: Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi, Sarah, Rob and Lurkers, Have to laugh about being out of my depth as an excuse to keep my mouth shut. Sputter, choke, cough. At least here, someone's likely to come along and offer to try pulling us out. I was having trouble understanding how a rupa could be inherently desirable. It is lobha, not the rupa, that shouts DESIRABLE. I was thinking that 'desirable rupa' meant there was, (sputter), somehow something about the rupa itself that should make me recognize it as being a good thing. But the characteristics of whichever rupa we talk about stay the same, neutral, now one and now another being experienced. When a bunch of realities are all lumped together and called a slap upside the head and we say I'm perverse if I like that (unless the majority of the normal folk agree with me), it isn't really saying anything about the characteristics of rupa... just about what the normal lobha consensus is... and I expect that will be more and more perverse as time goes on... as well as being experienced by less and less kusala kamma. When Rob was talking about only a bodily-comfort temperature range being desirable, I thought maybe the desirability of rupas depended on the degree it was working to support life. I wondered what was undesirable about the heat needed to cook rice... not that I want to experience that heat directly. And I really don't know anything about fire-walkers, either, but it seems that the heat there is a desirable support for faith. The same way, although it's not a rupa, fear of hell can be an inducement for kusala... but would it be a cogent one? I agree, Sarah, that "pakatupanissaya is much wider than aahaara". I think my point/question in saying I thought "pakatupannisaya has to be aaharaa as well" was just that something can work in more than one way... like you said about phassa being "both a decisive support for citta to experience its object at each moment and also a mental nutriment for this contact. It must also act as a condition in many other ways too, such as by conascent condition for other cetasikas and the citta, etc, etc." dog paddling, connie 26941 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:38pm Subject: Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > I was having trouble understanding how a rupa could be inherently > desirable. It is lobha, not the rupa, that shouts DESIRABLE. I was > thinking that 'desirable rupa' meant there was, (sputter), somehow > something about the rupa itself that should make me recognize it as > being a good thing. But the characteristics of whichever rupa we talk > about stay the same, neutral, now one and now another being experienced. > When a bunch of realities are all lumped together and called a slap > upside the head and we say I'm perverse if I like that (unless the > majority of the normal folk agree with me), it isn't really saying > anything about the characteristics of rupa... just about what the normal > lobha consensus is... and I expect that will be more and more perverse > as time goes on... as well as being experienced by less and less kusala > kamma. > > When Rob was talking about only a bodily-comfort temperature range being > desirable, I thought maybe the desirability of rupas depended on the > degree it was working to support life. I wondered what was undesirable > about the heat needed to cook rice... not that I want to experience that > heat directly. And I really don't know anything about fire- walkers, > either, but it seems that the heat there is a desirable support for > faith. The same way, although it's not a rupa, fear of hell can be an > inducement for kusala... but would it be a cogent one? Let's see if I can help. A citta process occurs so quickly that it is easy to merge all the functions into one. Here is a slightly simplified view of the order of events in a citta process: 1. A rupa arises (at this point, it is not the object of a citta) 2. The rupa becomes the object of vipaka cittas (vipaka cittas are the result of past kamma); at this point the functions of "seeing", "hearing", etc. take place 3. There is a reaction to the object (these are the javana cittas, the ones that create kamma); at this point there is lobha, dosa, moha, etc. A rupa gets it's characterisitic at stage 1, when it arises. At this point, the rupa is anittha (undesireable), ittha (moderately desireable) or ati-ittha (extremely desireable). Based on this inherent characteristic, the rupa is handled slightly differently at stage 2 of the process (i.e. "seeing" is done with an akusala vipaka citta or "seeing" is done with a kusala vipaka citta). I believe this to be a relatively minor technical issue. At stage 3 of the process, we react to the object and create new kamma. If the object is anittha and we react with lobha, this is "perversion of perception" (in less technical terms, "you are a wierdo" - masochists fall into this category). Many people have a strong sense of self; they are attached to the idea that THEY decide the nature of an object. For people such as this, contemplating on this issue of inherent characterisitics of rupa may have some value in appreciating anatta. Hope that this helps! Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Your swimming metaphor is cute :-) 26942 From: shakti Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi Rob, Thanks for telling me about the different ways that someone can share merit. Are there teachings somewhere that support this practice? If you know of any references please forward them as I'd like to investigate more. I wonder how we can really share merit with someone who is dead? If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing with??? Thanks, Shakti robmoult wrote: Hi Shakti, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > You wrote: The string on my wrist is a condition to remind me of my recent > kusala kamma. Putting the ten bases of meritorius actions on a "to > do list" as part of daily planning is another way of creating more > conditons to support more kusala. > > Planning for kusala is itself wholesome. Performing kusala with all > one's heart is wholesome. Sharing the merits accrued is wholesome. > Remembering past kusala is wholesome. I am using "modern business > concepts" (to do list, daily planning, etc.) to support timeless > wisdom.that you want to share the merit > _________________________ > > Shakti: I was wondering how do you share the merits that you accrued?? > > Hope that you had a wonderful visit with Khun Sujin, Sukin, Betty and others. Let us know how it went. > With metta, Shakti There are a number of ways in which one can share merits. There is a wonderful ceremony in the Sri Lankan tradition. You request a monk to perform a transference of merit ceremony and tell the monk of the person to whom the merits should be dedicated (they have to be dead; one cannot transfer merit to a living person). If there are with your spouse / family, all people hold onto a cord, one end of which is held by the monk (this creates a metaphorical link between the parties). The monk will chant in Pali for five to fifteen minutes (at some point, they insert the name of the departed person) and then ask you to pour water from a small vase into a small cup in a larger bowl (the water will overflow the cup and spill into the bowl). While you are pouring, the monk continues to chant. During the entire ceremony, you are asked to concentrate your attention on the departed one to whom the merit is being transferred. When the ceremony is over, you use the water from the cup and bowl to water a plant. Sorry, I am not familiar with the details of the other traditions, but I am certain that they have corresponding ceremonies (perhaps others can describe similar ceremonies in other traditions). At the end of each of my Abhidhamma lessons, somebody from the class reads the following passage aloud, "Let us recall to our minds this morning, that we came to the temple with the sole purpose to study the Dhamma. With good faith (saddha) and wise attention (sati), we learn and understand some of the Lord Buddha's teaching. Whenever there is any doubt or wrong understanding of the teaching, we seek to clear our doubts and straighten our views. With proper understanding of the Dhamma, we can now put it into practice. The right understanding of the Dhamma will produce right thoughts that, in turn, give rise to right action, right speech and right livelihood. With such a right frame of mind, we can face the realities of life. May the merits (punna) that we gained through listening to the Dhamma, discussing the Dhamma and straightening our views, help us in overcoming any difficulties that we may face. May all beings inhabiting space and earth, Devas and Nagas of mighty powers, share these merits that we have acquired and may they long protect the Buddha Sasana. Let these merits accrue to our departed relatives and may they be happy. May all beings share these merits we have acquired, may it contribute greatly to their happiness. By the grace of the merits that we have acquired, may we never follow the foolish, but only the wise until we reach the final goal - Nibbana." After this is read aloud, the class recite in unison, "Saddhu, saddhu, saddhu" ("saddhu" means, "well said"). I am not sure of the source of these words, they were used in the class before I started teaching, so I kept up the tradition. A third way to transfer merits is to simply think of the departed person and think to yourself "may the merits that I have accrued be transferred to " or something similar. If a Pali phrase makes the occasion more solemn for you, you can repeat three times, "Idam me natinam hotu, sukhita hontu natayo" which means "Let this (merit) accrue to our relatives, and may they be happy!". From one perspective, the actual words used are not that critical because what matters is the internal volition rather than the external language. On the other hand, I like to use Pali for this ritual. I have a strong affinity to the Dhamma. Because of this strong attraction to the Dhamma, I am convinced that in a previous life, I must have studied the Dhamma. I have no idea of what my past nationality or mother tongue was when I studied the Dhamma in my past life, but I irrespective of that, I suspect that I chanted in Pali. When I chant in Pali in this life, this acts as a condition to evoke the feeling of reverence from past similar experiences. Anyway, that is my personal logic, feel free to chant in English, if that is what you feel comfortable with. I have given three different ways of transferring merit (ceremony, reciting a long passage, reciting a short passage). Pick the one that suits you and suits the situation. Metta, Rob M :-) 26943 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi Shakti, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > Thanks for telling me about the different ways that someone can share merit. Are there teachings somewhere that support this practice? If you know of any references please forward them as I'd like to investigate more. ===== Here is an extract from "EXISTENCE - REBIRTH AND PLANES OF EXISTENCE BY SUNTHORN NA-RANGSI": ----- The Paradattupajivika-peta, is an unhappy ghost who lives on the dakkhina or sacrificial gifts of others. It is because of this type of Peta that Buddhism encourages its followers to perform a dakkhina or merit-making by offering food, clothing, shelter, etc., to virtuous persons, such as a bhikkhu or a group of bhikkhus, and then to dedicate the merit acquired there from to deceased relatives. This is done on the basis of the belief that if the deceased relatives have attained the life of the Paradattupajivika-peta, their suffering, on the appreciation of the sacrifice done and dedicated to them, will be abolished and they will thereby attain to the plane of happiness. This belief is affirmed by many stories of the Peta which appear in the Petavatthu of the Pali Canon. In one story, for instance, it is said that the Venerable Sariputta came across a female Peta appearing as an ugly, bony-thin and naked woman. The Elder questioned her and she replied that she was a Peta born in the Peta-world of suffering. She reported that when she was a human being neither her father, mother nor relatives persuaded her to perform any good kamma like giving alms, observing precepts, etc. Because of lacking such meritorious deeds she was, after her human existence, consequently born as an unhappy Peta tortured by hunger and thirst for five hundred years. She at last begged for help from the Venerable Sariputta. The Elder accepted her request and later offered a certain amount of food, a small piece of cloth, and water to one bhikkhu. He particularly dedicated that dakkhina to that Peta. On appreciating the dakkhina specially consecrated to her, she immediately acquired food, clothes and other properties and became released from suffering. Having attained the state of a celestial being, she came and appeared before the Venerable Sariputta. Being unable to recognize her, the Elder asked her who she was. The devadhita (goddess) informed him and said that she had come to pay her homage to him. The Peta in the above story was obviously a Paradattupajlvika-peta. It should be noted here that according to Buddhism only the Peta of this sort are able to enjoy the outcome of dakkhina dedicated by their relatives. The Peta of other sorts are not affected by such a dedication. The dakkhina will become fruitful to the Peta, however, only when three conditions are met. The three conditions are: i. The.dakkhina or sacrifice is given to a virtuous person, ii. The performer of the dakkhina dedicates it particularly to his deceased relative, and iii. His deceased relative has been born as a Paradattupajivika-peta and that Peta knows and appreciates that dakkhina particularly consecrated to him. If any of these three conditions is lacking, the deceased relative will not be able to enjoy the outcome of the dakkhina. But whatever the case may be, the performer of the dakkhina will never be without the result of his meritorious action. ----- Sharing of merit (patidanna) is one of the ten bases of meritorious actions (punna-kiriya-vatthu): 1. Dana – giving charity or generosity 2. Sila – morality; observing precepts 3. Bhavana – meditation, both tranquility and insight 4. Appacayana – reverence to elders and holy persons 5. Veyavacca – service in wholesome deeds 6. Pattidana – transference of merit 7. Pattanumodana – rejoicing in others' merit 8. Dhamma-savana – listening to the Doctrine 9. Dhamma-desana – expounding the Doctrine 10. Ditthijjukamma – straightening one's right view ===== > I wonder how we can really share merit with someone who is dead? If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing with??? > Someone who "is dead" now exists in another form; could be a hell- being, could be human, could be as an animal, could be as a Deva or could be as a "hungry ghost" (peta). Some devas and a certain type of peta (mentioned above) can sense our thoughts. If I do something good and think of dedicating the accrued merit to a departed person, then if (and only if) that person has been reborn as the certain type of peta, then the peta will be aware of my intention and rejoice in my merit (pattanumodana). This is a wholesome state that can act as a condition for the peta to be reborn in a happier state. Note that you still get the good kammic result from the good deed, even if you do not share the merit. Note also that you still get the good kammic result from sharing of merit, even if the departed relative is unable to receive it. Metta, Rob M :-) 26944 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:00pm Subject: First Steps Hi All, Here are a few suggestions on how to approach the study of Dhamma taken from the site "www.buddhadhamma.com": Understand why we study Dhamma ============================== We should know the purpose for learning Dhamma. It is not for obtaining something for our self, it is not for improving our good fortune, it is not for honour or fame and it is not so we can be admired as a clever person who has wisdom. For these are desires for the false concept of self. The purpose is for knowing the true nature of reality, which brings wisdom of the Four Noble Truths Study to understand what is Real ================================ At every moment there is Dhamma (realities), so at this very moment the truth of Dhamma can be verified. We do not have to look for Dhamma anywhere else because reality arises and falls away every instant through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind. In order to be able to understand and to become familiar with Dhamma we should listen to the teachings and learn more about the things which are real and which appear now. Listen, Read and Contemplate ============================ The Dhamma is something people cannot conceive by themselves. The Buddha accumulated the perfections that enabled him to realize the true Dhamma, which he then taught to others. In order for there to be growth in the understanding of Dhamma we must listen, read, contemplate and investigate the teachings of the Buddha who explained that everything is Dhamma. Question and Doubt ================== When there is no understanding or awareness of the realities that are arising and falling away at this moment, and which create the concept of a self and the world we live in, then there will be doubts and questioning about the teaching. Doubt is normal in the learning process that leads to the understanding of Dhamma. We should doubt everything we hear and read (even on this site), and only embrace that which we know is real through direct experience. ===== Beautifully spoken. Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu. Metta, Rob M :-) 26945 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:09pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 49-58 for comment Wholesome Cetasikas Slide Contents ============== In all good cittas: - Faith / Confidence / Conviction / Trust - Mindfulness / Attentiveness - Moral Shame / Conscience / Scruples / Modesty - Fear of Blame / Moral Dread - Non-attachment / Unselfishness / No Greed / Generosity - Non-Hate / Goodwill / Non-aversion - Equanimity / Mental Balance - Tranquility, Agility / Lightness / Buoyancy, Pliancy / Elasticity, Wieldiness / Adaptability / Workableness, Proficiency, Uprightness / Rectitude In some good cittas: - Abstinence from Wrong Speech / Action / Livelihood - Compassion - Sympathetic Joy / Appreciative Joy - Wisdom / Understanding Speaker Notes ============= This is the list of all wholesome mental states. We will examine the first factor on the list, faith, in more detail. Faith, Saddha in Pali, is a different from what other religions call faith. Imagine you are standing next to a stream, wondering how to get across. You see a person come up beside you, takes a running leap and jumps over the stream. Having witnessed this, you have faith, confidence, conviction and trust that it is possible to get across the stream. Faith in Buddhism is not blind faith, it is faith rooted in experience. Once you yourself have jumped over the stream, following the example of the other person, you can look back with an even stronger "pure faith" that it is possible to get across; you have faith that it is possible to get across the stream because you have done it yourself. Wholesome Cetasikas in Daily Life Slide Contents ============== The next series of drawings show some misunderstandings about faith in Buddhism. Manussa is unhappy. (Manussa is a Pali word for mankind. Dukkha means unsatisfactoriness, suffering or stress.) - Manussa: "Dukkha." He is unhappy because he is in jail. His crime? Craving. His sentence? Life imprisonment. The prison? Samsara. (Samsara is the continuous cycle of endless rebirths.) He had just finished a life term for the crime of craving and as soon as he was released, he was thrown back into the prison of Samsara for the same crime. (Craving binds us to samsara.) One day, the Buddha appeared. - Buddha: "Like you, I used to be a prisoner in Samsara. I escaped and I showed my friends, the Ariyas, how to escape as well." The Buddha gave Manussa a key. (The Buddha left behind the Dhamma.) - Buddha: "This key opens the door to the prison of Samsara. To use it, you must walk to the door, put the key in the keyhole, turn the key and open the door." The Buddha disappeared leaving the key behind. Unfortunately, Manussa lacked wisdom (pañña) and wasn't sure what to do with the key. - Manussa: "?" Manussa decided to put the key on the wall. He worshiped the key, hoping that it would release him from Samsara. (Rites and rituals, without proper understanding, do not help.) - Manussa: "This key is from the Buddha!" Manussa needed faith to believe that there was a door and that the key could work. However, to get out of Samsara, effort is needed. Without right effort, the key is useless! (We study the Dhamma to get faith; we "see how the Buddha jumped over the stream". However, nothing will happen without we ourselves making the right effort.) Slide Contents ============== Faith must be balanced with the other wholesome cetasikas - Faith without wisdom -> blind faith - Wisdom without faith -> cunning - Faith without energy -> no exertion - Energy without faith -> no resolve - Faith without concentration -> easily distracted - Concentration without faith -> no absorption - Faith without mindfulness -> no foundation - Mindfulness without faith -> no comprehension Speaker Notes ============= Faith is one of the five spiritual faculties or powers. The other four spiritual faculties or powers are wisdom, energy, concentration and mindfulness. Faith must be balanced with the other four spiritual faculties or powers. For example, too much faith with not enough wisdom leads to blind faith which is bad. On the other hand, too much wisdom with not enough faith leads to cunning, which is also bad. 26946 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with K. Sujin Dear Rob M, delighted to hear about your meeting. Yes, the present moment. We may plan to do this and that pu~n~na kiriya vatthu, business- like planning, list to do, but when different conditions are at work it moves the citta to act in such or such way. No matter you planned or not. Thus, in Howard's case, you rolled from one good thing into another. Unexpectantly. I tried to find the photo, but only saw you in Hong Kong with a cup in front! Where to look? Nina. op 13-11-2003 12:54 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > I explained my > understanding of Natural Decisive Support condition and concluded by > noting that it seemed like an extremely important condition. Khun > Sujin agreed that it was an important condition but noted that there > were other important conditions as well. She then asked in a direct > manner, "but how does it link to the present moment?" 26947 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Hi Michael, Thank you. I am so short of time and would rather hear about extracts, Nina. op 13-11-2003 14:41 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > Yes, as I mentioned there is a chapter in the book dedicated to Buddhaghosa. 26948 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi Rob, the Without the Walls Sutta, kuddhaka patha. There are verses about as the water is flowing, may there be long life etc., we can recite while pouring water in a vessel, after having offered a meal to the monks. What you suggested is familiar to me, in the Thai temple, and after a Dhamma discussion with A. Sujin. Nina. op 13-11-2003 17:32 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > As I remember (can't find the Sutta at the moment), > the Buddha encouraged sharing of merits with departed ones, but > there was no formula handed down. 26949 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with K. Sujin Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > I tried to find the photo, but only saw you in Hong Kong with a cup in > front! Where to look? At the very end of the "memebers" group there are now four photos with me in them (two from the "Howard" adventure, two taken by Sukin in Bangkok). Metta, Rob M :-) 26950 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:28pm Subject: Re: Traffic Lights Hi RobM, I'm appreciating your posts, including this one on traffic lights: -------------- RM: > So the next time that you are stopped at a red light, seize the opportunity to RELAX and be aware of the moment. You don't have to be on a meditation cushion to practice Satipatthana. -------------- Are you prescribing a course of action for pleasant abiding and for escaping samsara? Or are you describing the circumstances in which either samatha or right mindfulness might be conditioned to arise? In the latter case, you should add 'driving through a green light' and 'preparing to stop at an amber light.' Come to think of it, even in the heat of road rage, a dhamma, [dosa, for example], can be directly known as a fleeting, conditioned mental phenomenon. Changing the subject slightly, is there ever a situation in which sila, dana and bhavana need to be put off until a more suitable time? Kind regards, Ken H 26951 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi again Shakti, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > Thanks for telling me about the different ways that someone can share merit. Are there teachings somewhere that support this practice? If you know of any references please forward them as I'd like to investigate more. Nina pointed me to this Sutta in Khuddakapatha (Khp 7); note that "ghosts" are referred to as "shades" in the Suttas: Tirokudda Kanda -- Hungry Shades Outside the Walls ================================================== Outside the walls they stand, & at crossroads. At door posts they stand, returning to their old homes. But when a meal with plentiful food & drink is served, no one remembers them: Such is the kamma of living beings. Thus those who feel sympathy for their dead relatives give timely donations of proper food & drink -- exquisite, clean -- [thinking:] "May this be for our relatives. May our relatives be happy!" And those who have gathered there, the assembled shades of the relatives, with appreciation give their blessing for the plentiful food & drink: "May our relatives live long because of whom we have gained [this gift]. We have been honored, and the donors are not without reward!" For there [in their realm] there's no farming, no herding of cattle, no commerce, no trading with money. They live on what is given here, hungry shades whose time here is done. As water raining on a hill flows down to the valley, even so does what is given here benefit the dead. As rivers full of water fill the ocean full, even so does what is given here benefit the dead. "He gave to me, she acted on my behalf, they were my relatives, companions, friends": Offerings should be given for the dead when one reflects thus on things done in the past. For no weeping, no sorrowing no other lamentation benefits the dead whose relatives persist in that way. But when this offering is given, well-placed in the Sangha, it works for their long-term benefit and they profit immediately. In this way the proper duty to relatives has been shown, great honor has been done to the dead, and monks have been given strength: The merit you've acquired isn't small. ===== Metta, Rob M :-) 26952 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:18pm Subject: Re: Traffic Lights Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > -------------- > RM: > So the next time that you are stopped at a red > light, seize the opportunity to RELAX and be aware of the > moment. You don't have to be on a meditation cushion to > practice Satipatthana. > -------------- > > Are you prescribing a course of action for pleasant > abiding and for escaping samsara? Or are you describing > the circumstances in which either samatha or right > mindfulness might be conditioned to arise? > > In the latter case, you should add 'driving through a > green light' and 'preparing to stop at an amber light.' > Come to think of it, even in the heat of road rage, a > dhamma, [dosa, for example], can be directly known as a > fleeting, conditioned mental phenomenon. ===== I agree that "in theory" and "for people with the right accumulations", awareness of the present moment can arise even in the heat of road rage. For an Arahant, this yoniso manisakara arises at every instant. I think that I know where you are going with this. Yesterday in Bangkok, Ivan and I discussed the role of meditation as part of practice. The way I see it, everything arises because of supporting conditions. For some people, because of their accumulations, sitting in the lotus position is a supporting condition for Satipatthana. For some people, because of their accumulations, waiting at a red light is a supporting condition for Satipatthana. For some people, because of their accumulations, being in the middle of road rage is a supporting condition for Satipatthana. I see papanca (mental proliferation) as the enemy of mindfulness. Situations which condition a lot of papanca are unlikely to support the arising of mindfulness. I tend to "lose it" during moments of madness such as road rage and papanca takes over. I tend to "be with it" during moments of sitting (though I admit that I am an infrequent meditator). I know what you are going to say... you are going to say that you detect a sense of self wanting to control the situation, when in fact trying to control the situation is like trying to control gravity. Yesterday, I mentioned to Ivan that I needed some time to assimilate the Dhamma that he was passing to me. Your post and framing my reply is part of the assimilation process. ===== > Changing the subject slightly, is there ever a situation > in which sila, dana and bhavana need to be put off until > a more suitable time? ===== Dana, sila and bhavana will arise when conditions are conducive. How can they be "put off"? Does it make sense to talk of "putting off gravity"? Your question has a whiff of "self in control" about it! Touche! :-) :-) :-) I hope that my reply is not a condition for dosa in you :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 26953 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:26pm Subject: Transfer of Merit: (was: Accumulations, Conditions) Hi Rob M & Shakti & All, I think Shakti asked good qus and Rob's answer was helpful. I have similar qus to Shakti's. While pirit (paritta in Pali) meaning protection by reciting or listening to suttas can be traced back to the Vinaya and suttas such as the Metta sutta (and I think the symbols of protective power in the Pirit ceremonies such as the water and thread date back to very early times), there are very few references I know of to ‘transfer of merit’. It just depends on the understanding at the time of such ceremonies whether there is any benefit when we recite or listen or perform such deeds. ..... --- robmoult wrote: From the paper Rob quoted: > This is done on the basis of the belief that if the deceased > relatives have attained the life of the Paradattupajivika-peta, > their suffering, on the appreciation of the sacrifice done and > dedicated to them, will be abolished and they will thereby attain to > the plane of happiness. This belief is affirmed by many stories of > the Peta which appear in the Petavatthu of the Pali Canon. .... I also understand that this only applies to a particular peta realm and not to life in heavenly or other realms. Furthermore, there are many accounts of petas in the Petavatthu, but mostly these are accounts of the deeds performed in previous lives which led to their present wretched lives depicted in detail. .... > In one story, for instance, it is said that the Venerable Sariputta > came across a female Peta appearing as an ugly, bony-thin and naked > woman. The Elder questioned her and she replied that she was a Peta > born in the Peta-world of suffering. ..... I wrote about this story in a previous post with some commentary quotes and also references in it to some other posts on the topic of ‘Transfer of Merit’: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23463 This is the only story I can think of from the Peta stories, regarding specific references to transfer of merit. I’d be very glad to hear of any others in any other parts of the Pali texts. As RobM said (or the quote says), the conditions are very specific. In addition, in this account, they are most unusual. For a start, Sariputta was able to converse with the peta and knew exactly what needed to be done and what the response would be because of her request at the time. We can’t know if the deeds are appreciated by petas and often wishful thinking and attachment creeps in I think, just as when we wish living family or friends might appreciate our deeds or benefit from them. .... > The dakkhina will become fruitful to the Peta, however, only when > three conditions are met. The three conditions are: > i. The.dakkhina or sacrifice is given to a virtuous person, > ii. The performer of the dakkhina dedicates it particularly to his > deceased relative, and > iii. His deceased relative has been born as a Paradattupajivika-peta > and that Peta knows and appreciates that dakkhina particularly > consecrated to him. > > If any of these three conditions is lacking, the deceased relative > will not be able to enjoy the outcome of the dakkhina. But whatever > the case may be, the performer of the dakkhina will never be without > the result of his meritorious action. .... As you, RobM, further pointed out: ..... > Note that you still get the good kammic result from the good deed, > even if you do not share the merit. Note also that you still get the > good kammic result from sharing of merit, even if the departed > relative is unable to receive it. .... I greatly appreciate your saddha and good deeds. As you say, it all comes back to intentions and understanding. Gifts to the Sangha exceed gifts to individuals as I understand. I appreciate your examples in this and many regards. Metta, Sarah ======= 26954 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi again RobM & All, Thanks for quoting the verses Nina gave the reference to. There is a wonderful long and detailed commentary to them in ~Naa.namoli's translation of the Paramatthajotikaa, The Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning. It stresses how only those in the Peta realm can benefit from almsgiving too. I'm in a rush now, but would like to just give a couple of extracts which I'd obviously marked before (and quite forgotten;-)): 1. "....for it is with three factors, namely, with their own thanksgiving, with the giver's dedication, and with the excellence of the recipients, [namely, the Community headed by the Buddha,] that the offering succeeds and generates its fruit at that very moment, and of these [three] the giver was the special cause, which is why they said 'Owing to whom we have this gain'. 2. It stresses how only those in the Peta realm can benefit from almsgiving (food and drink) and reasons why. " They make use of that almsgiving. - But, master Gotama, if that deceased relative has not reappeared in that place, and if other relatives and kin of his have not reappeared in that place, who makes use of that almsgiving? - It is impossible, Divine, it cannot happen, that that place should be empty of relatives of his in this long extent [of the round of rebirths]; and furthermore, no giver ever lacked the fruit (A.v.269-71)" **** I'll read the commentary through at the weekend and see if there is anything else to add. Metta, Sarah ======= 26955 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with K. Sujin Hi RobM, Thanks a lot for your report and Sukin for the good pix;-) --- robmoult wrote: >She then asked in a direct > manner, "but how does it link to the present moment?" .... This would have been the response to anything you had raised;-) I had tried to hint as much. It's the same for all of us. All stories get cut down with the 'Manjushri sword' as Shakti described it;-) ***** Compassion: "its function resides in not bearing others' suffering" Atth and Vism. I merely was suggesting (and making a mountain out of a mole-hill in the process) that direct quotes of particular terms might be better staying in quotes. I think 'bearing' in English often carries the connotation of aversion, the near enemy of compassion, as in 'not being able to stand' something. Eg 'I can't stand it/bear it when people complain....' No big deal. Apologies for confusion. Metta, Sarah ====== 26956 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 0:02am Subject: Natural Decisive Support Condition (was: Accumulations) - for comment Hi All, A fundamental principle of Buddhism is that everything arises because of conditions; there is no God and no self to "decide" things. The PaÂÂhana, the seventh book of the Abhidhamma, explains conditional relations; ways in which one thing can be a condition for another. One of these modes of conditioning is "natural decisive support" (pakatupanissaya). Natural decisive support works as a condition when one of the following factors is present: - Strong past concepts - Strong past citta / cetasika - Strong past rupa "Past" does not only include experiences in the current lifetime, but also experiences from previous lifetimes. A concept, citta / cetasika or rupa can be "strong" when: - It was encountered frequently in the past (a past habit) - It was experienced very recently (bad news in one moment influences your reaction to something else in the next moment) - It was associated with very strong volition in the past (strong past impression or a solemn vow) "Strong past concepts, citta / cetasikas or rupa" are the conditioning factors, natural decisive support is the mode of conditioning, but what is conditioned? The texts explain that all 89 cittas and their associated cetasikas are conditioned. In other words, natural decisive support plays a part in the arising of every mental state. Though every single citta is influenced by natural decisive support, we can see that there are certain cittas where this conditioning by natural decisive support plays an important role: - Sense-door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta process and "decides" that a certain rupa will become the object of a citta process. Each of the senses is constantly bombarded with information; it is natural decisive support condition that "decides" which data will be processed. - Determining / mind door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta process and "decides" which type of javana (kamma producing) cittas will follow. Natural decisive support condition "decides" if our thoughts will be kusala or akusala. - Javana: these cittas create kamma. The weightiness of the kamma produced depends on the strength of the volition (cetana). It is natural decisive support that "decides" how strong the cetana will be and therefore the weightiness of the resulting kamma. - Jhana: The arising of the jhana citta depend on natural decisive support condition. It is this condition that "decides" when we should enter jhana. - Path: The arising of the supramundane cittas depend on natural decisive support condition. It is this condition that "decides" when we are ready to become a Sotapanna (or higher). The popular saying that "people are creatures of habit" is true. If we do metta meditation each morning, our mind naturally reacts with metta throughout the day. If we feel drawn to the Dhamma, it is probably because we studied the Dhamma in a past life and have accumulations to study the Dhamma in this life as well. If we are attracted to a person, it is probably because we have been associated with them in a past life (Yasodhara was the wife of the Buddha in a previous existence). If we have a "talent" in music or art, it is probably because of experience in past lives. There are hundreds of examples in the Suttas and commentaries where the character or circumstances of a person is linked to accumulations from a previous life. The ability to perceive a person's accumulations is one of the unique abilities of a Buddha (Arahants and others do not have this ability). At the time of the Dipankara Buddha, Sumedha the Hermit made a solemn vow that he would become a future Buddha. This solemn vow influenced the Bodhisatta for countless lifetimes. Sariputta and Moggallana were chief disciples of the Buddha and Ananda was the attendant of the Buddha because they had made solemn vows in previous lives that this was the role that they wanted to play. An understanding of how this law of nature called natural decisive support works can be a condition for the creation of kusala kamma: - We should look for opportunities to perform wholesome deeds. This searching for and planning a wholesome deed is, in itself, a wholesome deed. We should ensure that all wholesome deeds are done with strong volition, mindfulness and clear intention. We should review and rejoice in wholesome deeds performed and share the merits of our actions. Each of these activities creates good kamma and good accumulations; a condition to support the performing of more good deeds in the future. - When there is an unwholesome state of mind, we should note it with mindfulness. Seeing an unwholesome state of mind for what it is constitutes a wholesome action. Mindfulness arrests the process of mental proliferation (papa¾ca); the multiplication of unwholesome states of mind. Practicing mindfulness on an unwholesome state of mind weakens the power of the accumulation that conditioned the unwholesome state. - We should understand the potential power of a solemn vow. To increase the potency of the vow, it should be made when the mind is clear and not troubled by restlessness. The creation of kusala kamma will bring pleasant results in the future, but it does not help us to escape from samsara. To escape from samsara, one must develop the accumulation of seeing things as they truly are (nama and rupa) and recognize the three characteristics of realities (anicca, dukkha and anatta). We are often deluded into believing in a "self that has control". Reflecting upon natural decisive support condition supports an understanding of anatta. To draw an analogy, gravity does not "decide" to cause something to fall; gravity is a law of nature. Natural decisive support is also a law of nature. Imagine a pile of rough gravel with a ball placed at the top. Gravity will cause the ball to fall and the laws of physics will determine the path that the ball takes as it rolls down. The path that the ball takes will be determined by many factors including the most recent bounce and any gullies that there may be in the gravel (i.e. accumulations). From this analogy, we can see: - It is almost impossible to predict, with accuracy how the mind will react (i.e. don't know for sure the path the ball may take) - There is no self in control (i.e. the natural laws of physics / natural decisive support condition is "in control") 26957 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 0:15am Subject: Re: Accumulations, Conditions and Anatta - Interesting observation Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > So you didn't indicate where you get the idea that the concept of > anatta did not allow for a supervisory self making decisions. > > Let's go back to what the Buddha taught regarding the conditioned: > > Feeling is not self. Feeling is to be seen as it actually is with > right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is > not my self." > > Likewise, form is not self. Form is to be seen as it actually is > with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. > This is not my self." > > Likewise for perception, mental fabrications, and consciousness. > > I have indicated to you what the Buddha taught regarding the > conditioned. > > The idea that the concept of anatta did not allow for a supervisory > self making decisions is like a clutter. And as long as you hold on > to that idea, it will block you in clearly understanding what the > Buddha taught as it is. > > Only you can clear out the clutter and abandon for yourself the idea > that the concept of anatta did not allow for a supervisory self > making decisions. > > And it can be hard for one to do so. Sometime one has attachment to > things and throwing them away can be a very uncomfortable thing to > do. You may have noticed that I occasionally post mini-essays on DSG. I write these mini-essays to be handed out as "Class Notes" during my Abhidhamma class and post them on DSG for comment in advance. This week, I will talk about Natural Decisive Support Condition and Carita. Last week, I talked about Karuna. Prior to that, I talked about the 31 Planes, etc. I was wondering what to prepare for next week's class when I read this post. This wonderful post of yours has been one of the conditions for me to choose to write about anatta. Comments from K. Sujin and Ivan during my lunch yesterday in Bangkok were other supporting conditions. I am now starting to read a detailed (180 pages) commentary on the Anattalakkhana Sutta written by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw. I look forward to your comments on my next "mini-essay". Metta, Rob M :-) 26958 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 0:45am Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > James, > > I am not familiar with what you are quoting from the Abhidhamma, that nama > and rupa can exist separate from each other. It only ri