23000 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:54am Subject: Re: Present moment Hi Victor, Thank you for the reference to the second sutta. I think this second sutta is authentic, the first one isn't. Carefully reread this second sutta, it doesn't state that the path factors are sequential. It describes them as each containing the other. I could go into a detailed analysis of the first sutta and why I don't believe it is authentic, but you have failed to answer a question for me: If Right View is required at the onset, why did the Buddha encourage the ordination of children, who wouldn't have Right View and would only do what they were told to do? I also have another question for you: Answer this question and I will answer yours. I notice that you ask a lot of question but provide scant answers, of a personal opinion- oriented nature. I don't want to make the effort at personal analysis unless you do also. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi James, > > Thank you for your reply. > > How is the discourse Maha-cattarisaka Sutta choppy and illogical? > Besides the part at the end of the discourse, is there any other part > or point of the discourse that you don't agree with? > > In terms of following the noble eightfold path, I do find that Maha- > cattarisaka Sutta illustrate a structural relation of the path > factors. And this shows that following the noble eightfold path is > an integral, structured practice, with right view as the forerunner. > > Another instance of description of the relation of the path factors > can be found in > Samyutta Nikaya XLV.1 > Avijja Sutta > Ignorance > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-001.html > > In the discourse, the Buddha described the progression of the rise of > the path factors. Again, right view is the forerunner. > > Your comment is appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor 23001 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 4:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Present moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > =============================== > James, I do agree that this sutta is unusual in certain respects. In > particular, I find odd the beginning portion which goes as follows: > >> > What this segment does is define Right View as a particular > application of sati. It defines it as mindfulness of the first 5 steps of the 8-fold > noble path. Now, it is unusual to define Right View, I think, as an instance of > sati and not as mundane or supramundane > wisdom, especially since sammasati is a path factor of its own, distinct > from Right View. Also, this makes Right View (as sati) a part of what Right View > views, a form of reflexive reference. That, however, isn't so strange - after > all, the fourth noble truth is the 8-fold noble path, and in some places the > 1st factor of that path (which is exactly what we are discussing) is defined as > knowledge of the four noble truths themselves! > All this being the case, it is my impression that the M. Nikaya is one > of the collections that is considered by most "experts" to be most reliable. > There is,of course, a good possibility that many suttas have come down to us > in slightly garbled form, including suttas from this collection. > My own opinion is that a modicum of (what some call "mundane") Right > View must come first, else there would be no beginning to one's practice. Also, > inasmuch as liberating wisdom is the diamond whose sharpness ultimately > uproots the fetters, I see Right View in its supramundane form as coming last. So, > in that sense, pa~n~na is the alpha and omega of the path. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, I am glad that I am not the only one to see the illogic in the beginning formulation of this sutta. Since the path factors all ill- defined, the whole premise falls apart. I believe there was a hidden agenda to this sutta, which was not given by the Buddha, and I may analyze that later, depending on if Victor answers my question (Hint: It is a counter-measure to the then emerging Mahayana thought). If you believe that Right View is required from the onset, answer this question for me: Did the Buddha have Right View prior to enlightenment? Wasn't he attempting to join his Atman with Brahman? Is that Right View, mundane or otherwise? Metta, James 23002 From: nidive Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:28am Subject: Re: Present moment > If Right View is required at the onset, why did the Buddha > encourage the ordination of children, who wouldn't have Right > View and would only do what they were told to do? For the very reason that Right View is required at the onset. It is much easier to cultivate Right View in children. Even so, it is much much easier to cultivate Wrong View in children. A case in point: Palestinian children whose ambition is to be suicide bombers. I think most of us are fed on Wrong View when young. Swee Boon 23003 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:44am Subject: Re: Present moment Dear James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: If Right View is required at the onset, why did the Buddha encourage the ordination of children, who wouldn't have Right View and would only do what they were told to do? KKT: I think there is no other answer than that one: One can practice the Dhamma without the need of knowing or even of understanding it because the Dhamma is good in the beginning, in the middle and in the end, it should produce good results, right? The question you raised is also interesting in that one can << condition >> the children with the Dhamma, an idea which is opposed to the maintream idea of education that is the children should be free from all conditionings, especially religious conditionings! Peace, KKT 23004 From: Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:50am Subject: Cessation and Absence Re: [dsg] Sabba Sutta contd;-) Hi again, Victor (and Sarah) - In a message dated 6/18/03 9:03:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > If nibbana is the *cessation* of dukkha (rather than its *absence*), > then it is an event which occurs in time. And then is it not odd to describe > it > as unborn, unmade, unbecome, and unfabricated? [In a sense that I can grasp > but cannot express, I can see absence of dukkha as existing always. But I > cannot grasp *cessation* of dukkha as always existing, being a temporal > event.] > =============================== Just a couple more words to try to clarify what I am saying here. One could give two similes that may serve to illuminate the distinction I'm making between absence and cessation. One of these is the old simile of gold ore. In the gold ore there exists pure gold. That pure gold is already there, and is already empty of the other materials that cover up the gold - so, the other materials are already absent from it. The pure gold can be detected early on, even before the other materials are removed, but it is only fully revealed with their complete removal. Another is the simile of a sky filled with clouds. Above the clouds the sky is already clear, with sun shining brightly, and that clear, sunny sky is already free of the clouds which cover up the sky for those below - the clouds are already absent from the sky itself. At times, there may be a break in the cloud cover, even before the clouds are completely dispersed, giving a glimpse of the glory above, but the sunny sky is only fully revealed with their complete dispersal. Here the pure gold within the gold ore = the sky covered by clouds, yet free of them = absence of dukkha (nibbana) already existing in worldlings and lesser ariyans; the early detecting of the gold = the occasional break in the clouds = the paths and fruits of the lesser ariyans; the complete removal of adventitious minerals = the complete dispersal of the clouds = final cessation of dukkha, the full realization of the absence that is nibbana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23005 From: Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi, James - In a message dated 6/19/03 7:12:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I am glad that I am not the only one to see the illogic in the > beginning formulation of this sutta. Since the path factors all ill- > defined, the whole premise falls apart. I believe there was a hidden > agenda to this sutta, which was not given by the Buddha, and I may > analyze that later, depending on if Victor answers my question > (Hint: It is a counter-measure to the then emerging Mahayana > thought). > > If you believe that Right View is required from the onset, answer > this question for me: Did the Buddha have Right View prior to > enlightenment? Wasn't he attempting to join his Atman with Brahman? > Is that Right View, mundane or otherwise? > > Metta, James > > > =============================== All that I said was that one must have a *modicum* of right view to ever begin the path. More strongly, one must have a modicum of right view to even begin "the spiritual search" at all, let alone the Buddha's path. There must be at least an inkling of the truth of dukkha - that all is not quite right, that things are not perfect, that the wheels of the cart are of differing sizes, causing that cart to ride imperfectly. There must be an initial glimpse of the fact that there is reason for dissatisfaction. That is the barest wisp of right view that moves one off ground zero. Thus, awareness of the dukkha whose escape is the very goal of the path is the sine qua non of walking that path. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23006 From: Charles Clifford Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 6:40am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hello DSG, The term 'Noble Eightfold Path', because this translation contains the word 'path', unfortunately suggests a linear sequence, i.e., start at a point of origin and traverse a contiguous path until reaching a point of completion. This perception also implies a movement through time, i.e., one started in the past, one is presently traversing, and one will realize the goal in the future. Because of this implicit notion of movement through space/time, this use of the word 'path' is truly an unfortunate metaphor. The use of the word 'path' invites literal interpretations - interpretations which always come up short of the mark. The chosen English metaphor (path) invites misinterpretation. Samma Ditthi, Samma Sankappa, Samma Vaca, Samma Kammanta, Samma Ajiva, Samma Vayama, Samma Sati, and Samma Samadhi are not steps to be followed in a linear sequence. They are mutually interdependent, mutually arising, mutually supporting factors/components. They are not, intrinsically, separate isolates that inherently exist as such. This differentiation into 8 factors is merely a teaching aid - this framework is a profoundly ingenious construct to help us perceive of a means by which we can liberate ourselves and others from suffering. From a practical aspect, for training purposes, these 8 factors/components have traditionally been divided into 3 groups of disciplines: 1.) Moral - vaca, kammanta, ajiva 2.) Concentration - vayama, sati, Samadhi 3.) Wisdom - ditthi, sankappa These 3 groups have also, traditionally, represented 3 successive stages of training. Based on my personal experiences, I recognize who improvements in morality contribute to improvements in concentration, which contribute to improvements in wisdom. The importance of Samma Ditthi stems from the power that our perceptions have to influence our thoughts, speech, and actions. If we perceive a metaphor to be a fact, if we act in accord with a literal interpretation of scripture, one falls short of the mark. As an aside, as a US citizen, living in the 'bible belt', the choice of the word 'right' for representing 'samma' has always repulsed me. The word 'right' implies 'wrong'. The use of the word 'right' paints a black and white, fundamentalist, world-view - a particular religious doctrine is 'right', and thereby a reactionary judgment of other religious doctrines as being 'wrong' is automatically set into play. The term 'right' also promotes a totalitarian perspective, and facilitates totalitarian agenda that drive activities (political, social, economic, etc.). To my mind/heart, the use of the word 'skillful' is preferable to the use of the word 'right' when translating samma into the English language. The word 'skillful' does not have any unwholesome connotations in the English language. -----Original Message----- From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 11:19 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi James, Thank you for your reply. How is the discourse Maha-cattarisaka Sutta choppy and illogical? Besides the part at the end of the discourse, is there any other part or point of the discourse that you don't agree with? In terms of following the noble eightfold path, I do find that Maha- cattarisaka Sutta illustrate a structural relation of the path factors. And this shows that following the noble eightfold path is an integral, structured practice, with right view as the forerunner. Another instance of description of the relation of the path factors can be found in Samyutta Nikaya XLV.1 Avijja Sutta Ignorance http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-001.html In the discourse, the Buddha described the progression of the rise of the path factors. Again, right view is the forerunner. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: [snip] > > Hi Victor, > > Hmmm.this is a very strange sutta indeed. Frankly, I don't believe > the Lord Buddha gave this sutta. It is very choppy, illogical, and > doesn't really focus on one central idea. And that part at the end > of the sutta where the Buddha appears to get very defensive about the > sutta and how no one should oppose it without the risk of "criticism, > opposition, & reproach". That wasn't his style at all. I don't > agree with this sutta. > > Metta, James 23007 From: monomuni Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 4:41am Subject: Nibbana 1 Friends: Going Out: So have I heard: When seeing the elder Thera Dabba the Mallian sitting cross-legged in the air, burn completely without smoke, ashes or any sooth, thereby entering Parinibbana, the Blessed One, appreciating such unique event, exclaimed: With form fallen apart, with feeling cooled, with perception ceased, with construction silenced, consciousness reach its end. Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 9 Samanera Samahita http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Take delight in heedfulness. Guard your mind well. Draw yourselves out of the evil way just as the elephant sunk in the mud draws himself out. Random Dhammapada Verse 327 23008 From: monomuni Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 4:49am Subject: Nibbana 2 Friends; Traceless Nibbana: So have I heard: On that very same occasion, the Blessed One, furthermore exclaimed: There is, Bhikkhus, what is unborn, unbecome, uncreated & unconstructed. If, Bhikkhus, there was not this unborn, unbecome, uncreated & unconstructed state, no escape from what is born, become, created & constructed could ever be realized. But since there is what is unborn, unbecome, uncreated & unconstructed, the escape from this born, become, created & constructed state can therefore be realized ... !!! Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 3 Samanera Samahita http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Cut off your affection as though it were an autumn lily, with the hand. Cultivate the very path of peace. Nibbana has been expounded by the Auspicious One. Random Dhammapada Verse 285 23009 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 6:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: Present moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi Howard, I sincerely agree with your answer and your definition of Right View; however, I don't see how this definition, "an inkling of truth", can be equated with panna, which was my original point. If Right View is equated with panna, it cannot be considered as a necessity at the onset of practice, in my opinion. I guess this all comes down to how we define Right View and how we define panna. Seems like everyone is having a different set of definitions that changes daily! ;-). Metta, James > =============================== > All that I said was that one must have a *modicum* of right view to > ever begin the path. More strongly, one must have a modicum of right view to > even begin "the spiritual search" at all, let alone the Buddha's path. There must > be at least an inkling of the truth of dukkha - that all is not quite right, > that things are not perfect, that the wheels of the cart are of differing > sizes, causing that cart to ride imperfectly. There must be an initial glimpse of > the fact that there is reason for dissatisfaction. That is the barest wisp of > right view that moves one off ground zero. Thus, awareness of the dukkha whose > escape is the very goal of the path is the sine qua non of walking that path. > > With metta, > Howard > 23010 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 6:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Present moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Clifford" wrote: > Hello DSG, > > The term 'Noble Eightfold Path', because this translation contains the > word 'path', unfortunately suggests a linear sequence, i.e., start at a > point of origin and traverse a contiguous path until reaching a point of > completion. This perception also implies a movement through time, i.e., > one started in the past, one is presently traversing, and one will > realize the goal in the future. > > Because of this implicit notion of movement through space/time, this use > of the word 'path' is truly an unfortunate metaphor. The use of the word > 'path' invites literal interpretations - interpretations which always > come up short of the mark. The chosen English metaphor (path) invites > misinterpretation. > > Samma Ditthi, Samma Sankappa, Samma Vaca, Samma Kammanta, Samma Ajiva, > Samma Vayama, Samma Sati, and Samma Samadhi are not steps to be followed > in a linear sequence. They are mutually interdependent, mutually > arising, mutually supporting factors/components. They are not, > intrinsically, separate isolates that inherently exist as such. > > This differentiation into 8 factors is merely a teaching aid - this > framework is a profoundly ingenious construct to help us perceive of a > means by which we can liberate ourselves and others from suffering. > > From a practical aspect, for training purposes, these 8 > factors/components have traditionally been divided into 3 groups of > disciplines: > 1.) Moral - vaca, kammanta, ajiva > 2.) Concentration - vayama, sati, Samadhi > 3.) Wisdom - ditthi, sankappa > > These 3 groups have also, traditionally, represented 3 successive stages > of training. Based on my personal experiences, I recognize who > improvements in morality contribute to improvements in concentration, > which contribute to improvements in wisdom. > > The importance of Samma Ditthi stems from the power that our perceptions > have to influence our thoughts, speech, and actions. If we perceive a > metaphor to be a fact, if we act in accord with a literal interpretation > of scripture, one falls short of the mark. > > As an aside, as a US citizen, living in the 'bible belt', the choice of > the word 'right' for representing 'samma' has always repulsed me. The > word 'right' implies 'wrong'. The use of the word 'right' paints a black > and white, fundamentalist, world-view - a particular religious doctrine > is 'right', and thereby a reactionary judgment of other religious > doctrines as being 'wrong' is automatically set into play. The term > 'right' also promotes a totalitarian perspective, and facilitates > totalitarian agenda that drive activities (political, social, economic, > etc.). To my mind/heart, the use of the word 'skillful' is preferable to > the use of the word 'right' when translating samma into the English > language. The word 'skillful' does not have any unwholesome connotations > in the English language. > Hi Charles, Very well written and I concur. I also agree with your interpretation of the connotative meanings associated with 'Right'. I remember when I first read of Buddhism and I read all of ths 'Right' this and 'Right' that, I was put off. I thought that there is no such thing as a 'Right' as an absolute (smacks of Platonism). I like your alternative suggestion for translation, which I have internalized over the years the meaning but not the actual word you suggest. Thanks. Metta, James 23011 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 6:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, [...] (Jaataka) Hi Sarah, Here's the discussion that took place on Buddha-L, Feb. 2-4, 1999. I have strung together 7 messages and deleted repetitions [...] of earlier messages. The subject line is: Canonicity of Jaataka. Feb. 2, 1999 1. Richard P. Hayes writes: << A while back I invited people to look at a web-based teaching tool I was using for my course in Theravaada literature. In one of the pages I referred to the Jaataka stories as part of the Pali canon. One of scholars who checked into the site sent me an e-mail saying that the Jaataka *verses* are in the canon, but the stories that go with the verses are not part of the canon itself but are considered to be post-canonical commentarial literature. I have learned to trust the scholar in question, but I would also like to seek the opinions of other Pali scholars and Theravaadins on this matter. (It has been my experience in the past that experts occasionally disagree.) >> 2. Joel Tatelman replies: << Richard, Regarding your query about the canonicity of the Jaataka, all I've ever heard or read is just as your friend put it: the verses are accepted as buddhavacana; the prose portions are regarded as a.t.thakathaa. This is analogous to, say, the Dhammapada and its commentary. It's also true that Theravaadin traditions differ in their asription of canonicity to certain books of the Kuddakanikaaya. I just can't remember which. Doubtless some more learned scholar such as Lance Cousins can clarify this matter. >> Feb. 3, 1999 3. Lance Cousins replies to Richard: << A query from the Bovine chewing his cud in Montreal: [...] That is also my understanding. There are a few pieces of canonical prose in fsact, but the vast bulk was collected later, traditionally by Buddhaghosa, but almost certainly somewhat later. >> 4. John Strong replies: << Richard and Joel: This is also what I've always heard, but, now that I think about it, it seems to me that the picture changes a bit when one considers the perspective of the Pali ninefold or the generally Sanskrit twelvefold classifications of the Buddhavacana, both of which include jaataka. In those listings, "jaataka" seems to mean more than just the verses... doesn't it? >> 5. Jim Anderson replies to Richard: [...] << I have taken it for granted that the Jataka stories are not included in the Tipitaka ever since I acquired my Nalanda edition which has only the gaatha-s. But while I was browsing through some books trying to find out what other scholars had to say on the matter and getting somewhat confused, I wondered if other Pali commentaries might define just what the term "Jaataka" is referring to. In what seems to be an older scheme, there is a ninefold (nava'nga) arrangement of the canonical works, one of the nine being the Jaataka. In Dhammapaala's sub-commentary (.tiika) on the Suma'ngalavilaasinii, there is what appears to be a definition that suggests that the past stories along with their gaatha-s is what a Jaataka refers to. "tathaa sati pi gaathabandhabhaave bhagavato atiitesu jaatiisu cariyaanubhaavappakaasakesu jaatakasa~n~naa." (DA.T Vol. I, p.41 PTS ed.) I have just come across this line and thought it might be relevant. I find it a little hard to translate but it does seem to suggest a connection between a gaatha and the story and maybe the two do go together to form a Jaataka after all. I have yet to figure what the passage is really saying however and I could be a way off in my guess. >> Feb. 4, 1999 6. Lance Cousins replies to John Strong's comments: [...] << It is debated whether the ninefold or twelvefold classification is a memory of an earlier way of ordering of canonical materials or simply describes the different genres within the texts. Certainly, there are jaatakas within the first four nikaayas in this sense. The antiquity of some at least of the specific stories within the Jaataka collection is not in debate because of the artistic representations at Bharhut and Sanchi. However, there are apparently some cases where the verses do not justify the prose story and/or where we find different versions in Sanskrit, etc. Dieter Schlingloff in particular has argued that the early artistic representations sometimes match the canonical verses but not the prose account. >> 7. Lance Cousins resplies to Jim: << Jim Anderson writes: [...] This is part of a discussion arising from the fact that if you define gaathaa as a sutta with verse, veyyaakara.na as a sutta without verse, that would leave no room for the other seven Angas. Off the cuff, I translate: Even although there is composition in verse, the name 'Jaataka' is for which make known the Lord's glorious behaviour in his past births. (supply pa.ti.t.thitaa and sutta-visesesu from earlier in the passage) >> 23012 From: Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi, James - I think that Right View has (at least) a two aspects. One of these is mundane right view, which includes the "inkling" I refer to plus various levels of correct intellectual understanding, and supramundane Right View, which is pa~n~na, and which is the diamond wisdom that liberates. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/19/03 9:24:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi Howard, > > I sincerely agree with your answer and your definition of Right View; > however, I don't see how this definition, "an inkling of truth", can > be equated with panna, which was my original point. If Right View is > equated with panna, it cannot be considered as a necessity at the > onset of practice, in my opinion. I guess this all comes down to how > we define Right View and how we define panna. Seems like everyone is > having a different set of definitions that changes daily! ;-). > > Metta, James > >=============================== > > All that I said was that one must have a *modicum* of right > view to > >ever begin the path. More strongly, one must have a modicum of > right view to > >even begin "the spiritual search" at all, let alone the Buddha's > path. There must > >be at least an inkling of the truth of dukkha - that all is not > quite right, > >that things are not perfect, that the wheels of the cart are of > differing > >sizes, causing that cart to ride imperfectly. There must be an > initial glimpse of > >the fact that there is reason for dissatisfaction. That is the > barest wisp of > >right view that moves one off ground zero. Thus, awareness of the > dukkha whose > >escape is the very goal of the path is the sine qua non of walking > that path. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > >/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, > a bubble > >in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering > lamp, a > >phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond > Sutra) > > > > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23013 From: Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi, James (and Charles) - In a message dated 6/19/03 9:48:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Charles, > > Very well written and I concur. I also agree with your > interpretation of the connotative meanings associated with 'Right'. > I remember when I first read of Buddhism and I read all of > ths 'Right' this and 'Right' that, I was put off. I thought that > there is no such thing as a 'Right' as an absolute (smacks of > Platonism). I like your alternative suggestion for translation, > which I have internalized over the years the meaning but not the > actual word you suggest. Thanks. > > Metta, James > > =============================== I also understand and sympathize with the reluctance to translate 'samma' as "right". However, the Pali Text Society's dictionary gives "thoroughly, properly, rightly; in the right way, as it ought to be, best, perfectly (opp. miccha)" as the English rendering for 'samma' . I suspect that the word 'samma' is a forerunner to the Latin 'summa', meaning "highest", "peak", or "ultimate", and is related to the modern English word 'summit'. With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23014 From: monomuni Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:03am Subject: Nibbana 3! Friends; Unforced Nibbana: So have I heard: Finally on that self same occasion, teaching on the nature of Nibbana, the Blessed One exclaimed: In dependence, there is instability & unsafety. In independence, there is neither instability nor unsafety. When there is no liable instability, no feeble wavering, there is quiet calm, the stillness of peace! When there is such solid tranquility, then there is no tendency to drift, no attraction, no pull, nor strain of appeal. When there is no attraction, no drift, no bending of mind, then there is no movement, no development, no coming nor going. When there is no coming nor going, no death nor rearising, then neither is there any ceasing nor reappearing. When there is neither ceasing nor reappearing, then there is neither here nor there nor beyond nor in between. This – just this – is the Final End of Suffering. Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 4 Friendship is the Greatest ! The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Samanera Samahita Cypress Hut, Gangamulla Bambarella, Tawalantenna 20838. Central Province. SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Put anger away, abandon pride, overcome every attachment, cling not to Mind and Body and thus be free from sorrow. Random Dhammapada Verse 221 23015 From: Charles Clifford Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 8:51am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hello James & Howard > Hi Charles, > > Very well written and I concur. I also agree with your > interpretation of the connotative meanings associated with 'Right'. > I remember when I first read of Buddhism and I read all of > ths 'Right' this and 'Right' that, I was put off. I thought that > there is no such thing as a 'Right' as an absolute (smacks of > Platonism). I like your alternative suggestion for translation, > which I have internalized over the years the meaning but not the > actual word you suggest. Thanks. To make certain that credit is given to where it is deserved, it is important for me to point out that I first encountered the use of the adjective 'skillful' as the English translation for 'samma' in Bhante Henepola Gunaratana's book "Eight Mindful Steps to Happiness" ISBN 0-86171-176-9. Christina Feldman, in her article "The Four Noble Truths - Path of Transformation", as published in "Voices of Insight (edited by Sharon Salzberg)" ISBN 1-57062-398-8, uses the English noun/adjective 'wise' as a translation of 'samma.' While a much desired improvement over the use of the noun/adjective/adverb 'right,' the noun/adjective 'wise' is not as appealing to an American audience as the adjective 'skillful.' I also recall encountering the noun/adjective 'noble' as a translation of 'samma', but do not recall the source in which I encountered its use. > > Metta, James > > =============================== > I also understand and sympathize with the reluctance to translate > 'samma' as "right". However, the Pali Text Society's dictionary gives "thoroughly, > properly, rightly; in the right way, as it ought to be, best, perfectly (opp. > miccha)" as the English > rendering for 'samma' . > With metta, > Howard Perhaps the prudent thing to do would be to petition the editor(s) of the Pali Text Society Dictionary to incorporate the adjective 'skillful' into their list of suitable English translations/transliterations for 'samma'. Does anyone know how one could submit such a petition? With metta, Chuck 23016 From: Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi, Charles (and James) - In a message dated 6/19/03 11:20:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cbclifford@e... writes: > Perhaps the prudent thing to do would be to petition the editor(s) of > the Pali Text Society Dictionary to incorporate the adjective 'skillful' > into their list of suitable English translations/transliterations for > 'samma'. > > Does anyone know how one could submit such a petition? > > ============================== For maintaining precision, I really don't think 'skillful' belongs. The word 'kusala' is what means "skillful", and I don't think there is much overlap in meaning between 'kusala' and 'samma'. As I understand it, 'samma' is a superlative. It basically means "highest". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23017 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:23am Subject: Re: Present moment Hi James, Following the noble eightfold path is an integral practice. It is not a step by step process in which one develops right view first, then right resolve, then right speech, then right action, then right livelihood, then right effort, then right mindfulness, then right concentration. I believe that both of us don't see it as a step by step process as described above. However, following the noble eightfold path does start with right view, with knowing the four noble truths. It has nothing to do with whether right view is required for ordination. There are different aspects to right view. Right view is the knowledge regarding the fourth noble truths. It is also discerning wrong view as wrong view, right view as right view, unwholesome as unwholesome, wholesome as wholesome. It is possible that one has right view in certain aspects and wrong view in others. Following the noble eightfold path is an integral practice. Both Maha-cattarisaka Sutta and Avijja Sutta illustrate the inter-relation of the path factors in which right view is the forerunner. Remember that the goal is the cessation of dukkha. Noble eightfold path is the way to get there, and it all starts with the knowledge regarding the four noble truths. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Thank you for the reference to the second sutta. I think this second > sutta is authentic, the first one isn't. Carefully reread this > second sutta, it doesn't state that the path factors are sequential. > It describes them as each containing the other. I could go into a > detailed analysis of the first sutta and why I don't believe it is > authentic, but you have failed to answer a question for me: If Right > View is required at the onset, why did the Buddha encourage the > ordination of children, who wouldn't have Right View and would only > do what they were told to do? I also have another question for you: > Answer this question and I will answer yours. I notice that you ask > a lot of question but provide scant answers, of a personal opinion- > oriented nature. I don't want to make the effort at personal > analysis unless you do also. > > Metta, James 23018 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi Charles, I don't find that the term "path" or "noble eightfold path" inadequate in terming the fourth noble truth. There is a discourse that might of interest to you. Samyutta Nikaya XII.65 Nagara Sutta The City http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-065.html Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Clifford" wrote: > Hello DSG, [snip] 23019 From: Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi, Victor (and James) - In a message dated 6/19/03 1:25:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi James, > > Following the noble eightfold path is an integral practice. It is > not a step by step process in which one develops right view first, > then right resolve, then right speech, then right action, then right > livelihood, then right effort, then right mindfulness, then right > concentration. > > I believe that both of us don't see it as a step by step process as > described above. > > However, following the noble eightfold path does start with right > view, with knowing the four noble truths. It has nothing to do with > whether right view is required for ordination. > > There are different aspects to right view. Right view is the > knowledge regarding the fourth noble truths. It is also discerning > wrong view as wrong view, right view as right view, unwholesome as > unwholesome, wholesome as wholesome. It is possible that one has > right view in certain aspects and wrong view in others. > > Following the noble eightfold path is an integral practice. Both > Maha-cattarisaka Sutta and Avijja Sutta illustrate the inter-relation > of the path factors in which right view is the forerunner. Remember > that the goal is the cessation of dukkha. Noble eightfold path is > the way to get there, and it all starts with the knowledge regarding > the four noble truths. > > Peace, > Victor > =============================== I agree with you completely on this, Victor. In particular, I agree with your statement "It is possible that one has right view in certain aspects and wrong view in others." I think that it is typical, for example, even for one who has not yet heard the Dhamma in this lifetime, to come to the view that things are not "right" (an informal version of 1st noble truth) and that it is possible (somehow) to "make them right" (a partial grasping of the third noble truth). Both of these, seeing that something is "wrong", and at least suspecting that there is a way out, are needed for one to pursue a spiritual search. Then, if one is fortunate, as we are, one will encounter the Dhamma, and pursue it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23020 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 0:01pm Subject: Perfections, Ch 10, Loving-kindness, no 4 Perfections, Ch 10, Loving-kindness, no 4 The development of satipatthåna is beneficial in all respects. It is beneficial for the development of generosity. It happened that someone was greatly attached to beautiful things and was collecting a great number of them. However, when he had learnt about satipaììhåna and he developed it, he began to see the disadvantage of attachment, especially when he understood the characteristic of renunciation, nekkhamma. Renunciation is not only renunciation to a high degree, the degree of monkhood, but there can also be renunciation in the layman¹s life, that is to say, contentment, the feeling that what one possesses is sufficient. That person felt that he had already enough of the things which are experienced through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. He understood that he had too many possessions and that he usually had not wanted to give them away. However, when he realized the disadvantage of clinging to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object, he began to understand that what he possessed was sufficient, that he should have moderation. He wanted to get rid of what he did not need and he knew that in giving things away for the benefit and happiness of others he would accumulate kusala. If one does not normally develop satipatthåna, one does not know the characteristics of realities which are appearing one at a time as only nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas. Then other kinds of kusala do not arise easily and there are conditions for akusala to arise more rapidly. However, if someone knows the characteristics of realities that are appearing just as they are, and he knows the characteristic of nåma dhamma as just nåma, not a being or a person, and the characteristic of rúpa dhamma as just rúpa, not a being or a person, his endurance and patience will increase and also other kinds of kusala will further develop. A monk who used to live in Indonesia spoke about an Indonesian woman who had lost her husband because of a young man¹s reckless driving. However, she did not like to take legal action because she did not want to cause unhappiness to someone else. Moreoever, she also expressed the intention to give a scholarship for the education of that young man. This was very difficult for her, but she was able to do so. Such great acts of charity can be performed by someone who has accumulated loving-kindness and compassion. One may wonder whether the action of the Indonesian woman was a perfection developed in daily life. People have accumulated different degrees of kusala. Whether kusala is a perfection or not depends on its strength. When it is a perfection it is a supporting condition leading to the eradication of wrong view. When akusala dhamma is strong it will not be possible to abandon the wrong view which takes realities for beings, people or self. True mettå is extended to beings and people whoever they are and wherever they may be. If someone normally has mettå, he will be ready to assist other people time and again. Therefore, mettå is a ³divine abiding², brahmavihåra, that is, a dhamma which is a sublime way of abiding. 23021 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 0:01pm Subject: Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, Ch 4, no 6 Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, Ch 4, no 6 It is thanks to the Abhidhamma that we can learn what we are still ignorant of, otherwise we may believe that we have a great deal of understanding. The Abhidhamma shows how intricate realities and their conditions are. The Abhidhamma explains about the processes of cittas which evolve in a particular order because of the appropriate conditions, without there being a person who can direct them. It depends on the individual to what extent he wants to study the details of the Abhidhamma, but it is beneficial to keep in mind some basic principles. The Abhidhamma teaches that all realities of our daily life are mere elements, each performing their own function and proceeding according to their own conditions. The four great elements (solidity, cohesion, heat and motion) perform each their own function, as is also taught in the Suttas, such as the ³Mahå-Råhulovåda Sutta². We digest our food because these elements perform each their own function. Nobody uses a ladle to push the food through, nobody lights a fire in the stomach so that heat causes our food inside to be digested, as we read in the Commentary to the ³Satipatthåna Sutta². Also cittas perform each their own function. The cittas that arise in processes proceed according to conditions and arise in a specific order. The cetasikas that accompany cittas perform each their own function. Understanding realities as elements each performing their own function, as taught in detail in the Abhidhamma, can be our guiding principle in the development of vipassanå. Sati of satipatthåna has the function of being mindful of an object, and paññå has the function of understanding that object. Right from the beginning we should see them as elements performing their own functions. This leads to abandoning of the idea of "I am practising, I am developing vipassanå". Vipassanå, insight, develops according to its own conditions in different stages. There is no person to be found who meditates or tries to concentrate on specific nåmas and rúpas. We should not have an idea of self who is guiding paññå, right understanding. Sati and paññå can be accumulated, so that there will be conditions again for their arising. We should not underestimate the force of paññå that is accumulated. Acharn Sujin stressed time and again that there are three rounds of understanding of the four noble Truths: sacca ñåna, which is the understanding of the truth (sacca means truth), kicca ñåna, which is the practice of right mindfulness of nåma and rúpa (kicca means function), kata ñåna, the realization of the truth (kata means: what has been done). As to the first round, sacca ñåna, this is the firm understanding of what the four noble Truths are. It is understanding of what dukkha is: the objects appearing at this moment. They are impermanent and thus they are unsatisfactory. The impermanence of realities can be directly understood when satipatthåna is developed. 23022 From: Andrew Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 4:46pm Subject: Re: Present moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > If Right View is required at the onset, why did the Buddha encourage the > ordination of children, who wouldn't have Right View and would only > do what they were told to do? Hi James I don't have the answer to this interesting question but I think it's important to identify "children don't have Right View" as an assumption. Long ago, somebody postulated to me that, in the west, we have the view that children are "empty bottles" to be filled up by their parents (and culture). If the children turn out "bad" then the parents can be rightly blamed for not filling them up with the right stuff. This person suggested that the Buddhist view was different ie children are "part full bottles" with their own accumulations (yes, that word again) etcetera. I don't know if this metaphor adds anything helpful, apart from questioning the idea that children can't have Right View. Metta, Andrew 23023 From: Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 4:56pm Subject: Mental Objects, 104 Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, "The Way of Mindfulness" trans. & ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika), Dhammapala Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html The Contemplation of Mental Objects The Factors of Enlightenment 7. Equanimity There are things which condition the enlightenment factor of equanimity and an abundance of right reflection on these is the reason that is conducive to the arising of the non-arisen enlightenment factor of equanimity and for the increase, expansion and the completion by culture of the enlightenment factor when it has risen. Five things lead to the arising of the enlightenment factor of equanimity: The detached attitude towards beings; the detached attitude towards things; the avoiding of persons who are egotistical in regard to living beings and things; association with people who are neutral (impartial) in regard to living beings and things; and the inclination for developing the enlightenment factor of equanimity. The detached attitude towards beings is brought about by reflection on beings as possessors of their own deeds, and by reflection in the highest sense. Reflection on beings as possessors of their own deeds is there when a person thinks thus: "You have been born here by your own deeds in the past and will depart from here and fare according to your own deeds. Who then is the being you are attached to?" Reflection in the highest sense is thinking in the following way: "Really no living being exists. To whom then, can you be attached?" The detached attitude towards things is brought about by reflection on ownerlessness and temporariness. A person thinks thus: "This robe will fade, get old, become a foot-cleaning rag and be after that fit only to be taken up at the end of a stick and flung away. Surely, should there be an owner of this he would not let it come to ruin in this way?" This is the reflection on ownerlessness. To think that this robe cannot last long and that its duration is short, is to reflect on the temporariness of it. These two reflections are applicable in a similar way to the bowl and other things. Persons who are egotistical in regard to living beings are laymen who cherish their own sons and daughters and the like, and recluses who cherish their resident pupils, mates, preceptors and the like. And these persons, if for instance, they are recluses do with their own hands for them whom they cherish, hair-cutting, sewing, robe-washing, robe-dyeing, bowl-lacquering, and so forth. If even for a short time they do not see their cherished ones they look here and there like bewildered deer, and ask, "Where is such and such novice?" or "Where is such and such a young bhikkhu." And if these recluses are requested by others to send a novice or a young bhikkhu to do some work for them, such as hair-cutting, they don't send the novice or young bhikkhu, on the pretense that he is not made to do even his own work, and that if he is made to do the work of others he would get tired. Persons egotistical in this way should be avoided. A person who is egotistical in regard to things is he who cherishes robes, bowls, beakers, walking sticks, staffs and so forth and does not let another even touch these. When asked for a loan of some article he would say: "Even I do not use it; how can I give it?" Persons egotistical in that way, too, should be avoided. A person who is neutral, indifferent, as regards both living beings and things is a person who is detached as regards both living beings and things. The company of such a person should be sought. Inclination for developing this enlightenment factor is the inclining, sloping, and bending of the mind towards equanimity, in all postures of standing and so forth. The completion by culture of the enlightenment factor of equanimity is wrought by the path of awakening. Iti ajjhattam = "Thus internally." The yogi lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects (that is, contemplating mental objects only and nothing else) by laying hold of his own enlightenment factors or another's enlightenment factors or at one time his own enlightenment factors and at another time another's enlightenment factors. Here, origination and dissolution should be known by way of the origination and dissolution of the enlightenment factors. From here on the exposition is just according to the manner already stated. [Tika] The cause of the enlightenment factor of equanimity is the impartial state, the middle state, free from attraction and repulsion. If that freedom from attraction and repulsion exists then there is equanimity; when it does not exist there is no equanimity. This state of freedom from attraction and repulsion is twofold by way of scope: detachment in regard to beings and detachment in regard to things. [T] Repulsion is thrown away even by the development of the enlightenment factor of calm and in order to show just the way of casting out attraction is the instruction beginning with detachment in regard to beings taught. [T] Specially, equanimity is an enemy of lust and so the commentator said: Equanimity is the path of purity of one who is full of lust. [T] The detached attitude towards beings is developed by reflection on the individual nature of moral causation and by reflection on soullessness. By reflection on ownerlessness, the state of not belonging to a soul is brought out and by reflection on temporariness, the impermanence of things is brought out to produce the detached attitude towards inanimate things. 23024 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 8:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hello Chuck, I agree with much of what you say, but I'm not sure I understand it in the way it was intended. You wrote: --------------- > The term 'Noble Eightfold Path', because this > translation contains the word 'path', unfortunately > suggests a linear sequence, ----------------- It is one thing that there is a final cessation of suffering (Parinibbana), but, just as importantly, there is a path that leads to it. The Path that leads to Parinibbana is the sole province of the Ariyans, the Noble Ones; we worldling disciples have not entered upon it. Ultimately, there is a Path but there is no Ariyan. The Path is the momentarily arising five khandhas conventionally designated as an Ariyan. The first step on the Path, Stream-entry, is the five khandhas of the Ariyan at the moment of Stream-entry. Of those five khandhas, the sankhara khandha contains thirty-four mental factors (cetasikas), eight of which have supramundane characteristics. These eight supramundane cetasikas are called Path Factors. ----------------- > , this use > of the word 'path' is truly an unfortunate metaphor. > The use of the word > 'path' invites literal interpretations - > interpretations which always come up short of the mark. ----------------- In the suttas, most of the Dhamma is revealed in conventional terminology. Rightly understood, it discloses an ultimate reality which is anything but conventional. -------------- > The chosen English metaphor (path) invites > misinterpretation. > Samma Ditthi, Samma Sankappa, Samma Vaca, Samma > Kammanta, Samma Ajiva, Samma Vayama, Samma Sati, and > Samma Samadhi are not steps to be followed in a linear > sequence. They are mutually interdependent, mutually > arising, mutually supporting factors/components. They > are not, intrinsically, separate isolates that > inherently exist as such. ------------- They are cetasikas and, as such, they are as real as anything can be. When they arise, they do so together in one moment but even within that moment, they condition and support each other. Right Understanding comes first in the sense that the other [Right] cetasikas cannot arise without it. (That's about the extent of my knowledge of the Patthana, I'm afraid.) --------------- > This differentiation into 8 factors is merely a > teaching aid - -------------- I'll leave my comments there, because I'm not sure of the extent to which we agree and disagree. What are your thoughts so far? Kind regards, Ken H 23025 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 8:52pm Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > In your post about the Kandaraka sutta - regarding Pessa the Elephant > Driver's son - you asked at the end why the Buddha didn't ask Pessa > to stay." I have just read the Kandaraka sutta (MN51). "Soon after the elephant rider's son had left. The Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus: Bhikkhus, if the elephant rider's son had waited some more time until I explained these four persons, he would have amassed, much knowledge." ____________ > I wonder if it could have > been something as simple as the fact that Pessa (like us) had a > living to earn, a boss he was answerable to, a family to get back > to, or an appointment to keep - i.e. other things on his mind? > Perhaps, as Pessa was said to be ripe for enlightenment, the wish to > listen to the true Dhamma taught by a Buddha needs to effortlessly > override,and not be clouded by, the need to be doing things? Pessa > did seem to have a good understanding - but was drawn away by affairs > of the world, the things that he felt he was required to do. > But .. I really don't know - why didn't the Buddha call Pessa back > or encourage him to stay? > ________________ Dear Christine, Perhaps I could leave this for gentle contemplation and add something Andrew quoted: Majjhima nikaya 26, the Ariyapariyesana- sutta "This Dhamma which I have realised is indeed profound, difficult to perceive, difficult to comprehend..." Something else Andrew said is worthy of consideration too, I think. "I then go on to wanting to "steer" that self in an ordained direction. The end result is a rejection of anatta. Presently, I find the truly liberating aspect of the Dhamma is a realization that such things don't really matter. .<..>.. Whatever arises can be a condition for the arising of wisdom in the present moment." In my early years in Buddhism there was so much energy but it was staked to self. http://www.vipassana.info/letter_about_vipassana_iv.htm "Kindred Sayings" (III, Khandha vagga, Middle Fifty, Ch V, par. 99, The Leash) the Buddha said at Savatthi: Just as, monks, a dog tied up by a leash to a strong stake or pillar, keeps running round and revolving round and round that stake or pillar, even so, monks, the untaught many folk... regard body as self, regard feeling, perception, activities, consciousness as self... they run and revolve round and round from body to body, from feeling to feeling, from perception to perception, from activities to activities, from consciousness to consciousness... they are not released therefrom, they are not released from rebirth, from old age and decay, from sorrow and grief, from woe, lamentation and despair... they are not released from dukkha, I declare... ""end sutta Nina: "We then read that the ariyan disciple who does not take any reality for self is released from dukkha. : "" robertk 23026 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Chanting and transference of merits to petas Hi PC, --- bodhi dhamma wrote: > Hi Bros. and Sis. in the dhamma, > > I understand that when we chant and do transference of merits to petas, > not all petas can receive our merits. Is it because different groups of > them have different mental faculties and different cittas/cetasikas ? > Next, it is said that when one chants attentively, and fully understand > the content of the Bojjhanga Sutras, Ratana sutra etc.one will be > 'protected' against the evil forces. calamities....etc. How chanting,in > these cases can generate powerful wholesome cittas to counter-act the > unwholesome thoughts prevailing in the mind of the evil beings > ?Alternatively,is it because these evil beings receive(or thought > arising from ) the wholesome merits and thus nulilfy their akusala > cittas ? > > I hope to gather some Abhidhammic aspects of the above,for my > forthcoming class discussion. ..... Really good questions!! Pls take a look at the following posts and ask the writers for any further clarifications. If I have time I’ll come back with some details from one of the Peta stories later perhaps. Paritta (Protection) 22402 Merit, Transfer of 5313, 10722 with metta, Sis.Sarah ======= 23027 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:13am Subject: Rebirth and Meditation Hi Ken H, You were asking Mike recently about his ideas on rebirth, I think. I was just sorting through our Swiss hiking maps and papers for our trip next week when I came across some of his posts on this very topic from exactly two years ago;-) I had meant to save them and some other posts on return amongst and vaguely recall wandering round in circles looking for them. (Christine, note my folders of maps and papers are like other friends’handbags). Here are some links to these (imho) helpful posts: Mike: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5779 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5810 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5811 Also in the pile of lost posts -- and possibly relevant to some discussions -- are these ones on meditation from our friend Dan who always writes controversial and colourful posts: Dan: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5785 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5854 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5855 I know Dan’s in the process of a move, but if anyone has comments, perhaps he’ll pop in during the summer to respond. With metta, Sarah ====== 23028 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:32am Subject: Re: Rebirth and Meditation Dear Sarah, Mike and all, I've been reading Voltaire's 'Candice' tonight, so reading Mike's posts is a nice counterpoint. I marvel at the clarity of some of Dan's letters. I hope he'll write more and maybe one day issue an edited collection. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > > Mike: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5779 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5810 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5811 > > Also in the pile of lost posts -- and possibly relevant to some > discussions -- are these ones on meditation from our friend Dan who always > writes controversial and colourful posts: > > Dan: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5785 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5854 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5855 > > I 23029 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:03am Subject: Re: Rebirth and Meditation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Sarah, Mike and all, > I've been reading Voltaire's 'Candice' tonight, __________ That should have been 'Candide'. While I'm on the subject, an extract: "In short Miss Cunegonde, I have had experience. I know the world. I prevail upon each passenger to tell his story, and if there be one of them that has not cursed his life many a time, that has not frequently looked upon himself as the unhappiest of mortals, I give you leave to throw me into the sea." RobertK 23030 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Somanassindriya Hi Steve, --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi > Just a quick question on the joy faculty/somanassindriya. In the > Patisambhidamagga(p.118) it has: At the moment of stream-entry path > the I-shall-come-to-know-the-unknown faculty is equipped with delight > by the joy faculty... At the moment of stream-entry path all Dhammas > born (at that moment)...are supramundane. > > In the Dispeller of delusion(p.40) it has: The joy faculty, having > sixth as its basis or having no basis, is of three planes. > > What would be the reason that the DoD has the joy faculty as only 3 > planes while it seems the Patisambhidamagga has it as 4 planes? ...... I’ve looked at the references and read your message a few times and am still not clear, but I’ll make a few comments as I don’t think anyone else has. In the Dispeller pasage, planes refer to bhumi and later we read (p158) that the joy faculty is included in the sense sphere, the fine-material sphere and the supramundane sphere. In the Psm passage (p118) which you quote from, I can’t see any reference to ‘4 planes’ (bhumi). I wonder if you might be referring to stages of enlightenment, in which case you’re not comparing like with like, I think. If I’m being particularly dense and missing something, pls let me know and someone else may be able to help further. I’m always impressed by your studies of Psm. I’d be grateful if you’d explain in simple terms what brought you to be considering these particular passages and questions. Metta, Sarah p.s I note that ‘sixth as its basis’ refers to cha.t.thaayatana or mind base (manaayatana). =============== 23031 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rebirth and Meditation Hi RobK (Chuck & All), --- rjkjp1 wrote: > I marvel at the clarity of some of Dan's letters. I hope he'll write > more and maybe one day issue an edited collection. ..... Me too...... and anyone who has spent any time in the archives will know that Rob and I are not marvelling because Dan has ever given us an easy time;-) Ok, I’ve fished out Dan’s alarm classic on meditation - hopefully everyone can smile even if they don’t agree with the sentiments. For balance, I’ve also fished out James’ bath classic which I’m sure we can all appreciate and smile at too. ***** Dan’s alarm classic http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9139.html James’ bath classic http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15573.html ***** Chuck, one example of life never being easy on DSG was when Dan got stuck into my use of skilful for kusala. He comes from your part of the world too;-) This is the first post in a thread and you may like to follow the rest of the discussion between us. (I’m not sure if the subject heading changes or not). Result: I only dare use the word if I’m pretty sure he’s not around. (just kidding, Dan;-)) Chuck, I can assure you that you’d never get any consensus here for any petition on any terminology.....;-) Start of ‘skilful’ discussion http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m7081.html ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 23032 From: Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rebirth and Meditation Hi, Sarah (and Rob K - and Jon, while I'm at it! ;-), In a message dated 6/20/03 7:29:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi RobK (Chuck &All), > > --- rjkjp1 wrote: > >I marvel at the clarity of some of Dan's letters. I hope he'll write > >more and maybe one day issue an edited collection. > ..... > Me too...... and anyone who has spent any time in the archives will know > that Rob and I are not marvelling because Dan has ever given us an easy > time;-) > > Ok, I’ve fished out Dan’s alarm classic on meditation - hopefully everyone > can smile even if they don’t agree with the sentiments. For balance, I’ve > also fished out James’ bath classic which I’m sure we can all appreciate > and smile at too. > ***** > Dan’s alarm classic > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9139.html ============================== I've reread this post of Dan's. I agree that it is very well written and very clear. Dan is a bright and literate man. I also don't agree with a word of what the post maintains. As I see it, it presents the life of a Buddhist as no different from that of anyone else, and, identifying "doing" anything with carrying out ritual, it advocates a perspective of randomness as far as progress towards liberation is concerned. To me, this perspective is very far from the Dhamma. But, then, you knew that! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23033 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mental Objects, 104 Hi Larry, What an outstanding passage. Makes me wonder how anyone can doubt the value of the commentaries and subcommentaries. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:56 PM Subject: [dsg] Mental Objects, 104 > Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, "The Way of Mindfulness" trans. & > ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika), > Dhammapala Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > > The Contemplation of Mental Objects > > The Factors of Enlightenment > > 7. Equanimity 23034 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it Dear Sarah, Rob K, Andrew, Kom and all, Sarah asked me whether I had any questions for Bgk, since she will be there half July. I have been reflecting about something Kom wrote: Visakha who was a sotapanna enjoyed her grandchildren and jewelry. We cannot expect to be without lobha now. I often take this as an excuse and forget that Visakha could enjoy with wisdom, being mindful of lobha too. We say that lobha also can and should be object of awareness, but I realize how difficult this is. The perfection of patience is: being patience towards the desirable and the undesirable. I was discussing this with Lodewijk, and he also finds that especially patience towards the desirable is difficult: we have lobha immediately. And then there is the perfection of equanimity, evenmindedness: no lobha, no dosa.In the Way we read about the equanimity enlightenment factor: I was considering impermanence while enjoying the beautiful landscape while hiking, but it is only thinking. It is conditioned by reading and studying. Now Rob K quoted Andrew's post (in his answer to Chris about Pessa) and here is actually the answer: "I then go on to wanting to "steer" that self in an > ordained direction. The end result is a rejection of anatta. > Presently, I find the truly liberating aspect of the Dhamma is a > realization that such things don't really matter. .<..>.. Whatever > arises can be a condition for the arising of > wisdom in the present moment." > >And Rob added: And Sarah wrote to Chris: N: So, as Andrew also says, it does not really matter what arises, it has conditions. Even beneficial reflection: when we enjoy something and remember the suttas where it is said that the enjoyable does not last. We are bound to take such reflection for self, being pleased with it. I have found in the above quotes the answer, but it is useful if A. Sujin could elaborate on this subject in Bgk. With appreciation, Nina. 23035 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thina middha, to Num. Dear Num and smallchap, Num, please, if you have time could you ask Acharn Somporn textual reference for the fact that arahats still have middha? I heard him say this. Smallchap, The Vis it does not say that arahats do not sleep. They rest in the lion's posture. Their bodies are also tired. The Vis states, ... For the arahat middha is not a hindrance. He has middha but it is not a defilement. However, different teachers of old had different opinions. Topics of Abh, p. 61, <...However, the sleep of the one who has destroyed the taints is due to fatigue of the body>, this is re middha. Meanwhile, I read Sarah's post (I was away). A. Somporn in Thailand is well versed in Co and subco. He may have had access to other material as well. If we have a chance we can ask him. Nina. op 16-06-2003 16:57 schreef smallchap op smallchap@y...: > Arahats do not sleep. Thina and middha are eradicated when one > attains arahatship. Visuddhimagga XXII 71. 23036 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 10:53am Subject: Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, Ch 4, no 7 Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, Ch 4, no 7 We may ask ourselves why sati does not arise more frequently. The reason is, that sacca ñåna is not yet firm enough, it is not well established so as to condition kicca ñåna, the direct awareness of one nåma or rúpa at a time. Sacca ñåùa is firm understanding of the truth and the right Path, so that one does not deviate from the right Path. We should thoroughly understand the cause of dukkha, clinging. This is the second noble Truth and it has to be known now, when it appears. So long as there is clinging we shall continue being in the cycle of birth and death, there will be no end to dukkha. We should realize it when we cling to an idea of self, and when we cling to satipatthåna. When we engage in a particular practice with the aim to have sati more often, there is wrong practice which causes us to deviate from the right Path. When sacca ñåna gradually develops it can condition the arising of satipattåna, and then kicca ñåna, knowledge of the task, begins to develop. When we are convinced that there is no other way leading to enlightenment but the development of satipatthåna, we shall not deviate from the right Path. The right Path is the fourth noble Truth and this lead to the cessation of dukkha, nibbåna, which is the third noble Truth. Acharn Sujin stressed the importance of the three phases because they make it apparent that sati-sampajañña can only arise when there is a firm foundation knowledge of the objects of satipatthåna and the way of its development. It reminds us that paññå is gradually developed from life to life. The level of intellectual understanding, pariyatti, conditions awareness and understanding of the characteristics of nama and rupa that appear now. This is the beginning of patipatti, the level of practice and this will eventually lead to the realization of the truth, paìivedha. Very gradually nåma can be known as nåma and rúpa as rúpa, and stages of insight can arise, but we do not know when they will arise. It takes many lives, but we should not be impatient. The teachings are still available and we should be grateful for each moment understanding. Paññå can grow, and one day it can become paññå of the level of pativedha, the penetration of the four noble Truths. When lokuttara paññå arises, the unconditioned dhamma, nibbåna, is experienced. Nina 23037 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 11:36am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it Dear Nina (& Sarah, Rob K, Andrew, et Al), I very much appreciate your post summarizing all the great points that people have made in regard to attachment, pleasant feeling, the reflection on impermanence, and anatta. > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 10:53 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it > > > half July. I have been reflecting about something Kom wrote: > Visakha who was > a sotapanna enjoyed her grandchildren and jewelry. We cannot expect to be > without lobha now. I often take this as an excuse and forget that Visakha > could enjoy with wisdom, being mindful of lobha too. The other favorite excuse that I have is hey, these are all by conditions! But then, we can learn for ourselves if these are reflections are with attachment or with wisdom. Can we prevent these reflections? It already happened! > foot-cleaning rag and be after that fit only to be taken up at the end > of a stick and flung away. Surely, should there be an owner of this he > would not let it come to ruin in this way?" This is the reflection on > ownerlessness. To think that this robe cannot last long and that its > duration is short, is to reflect on the temporariness of it. These two > reflections are applicable in a similar way to the bowl and other > things.> > I was considering impermanence while enjoying the beautiful > landscape while > hiking, but it is only thinking. It is conditioned by reading and > studying. I think reflection on the truths are very helpful to me, especially when panna that really sees the impermanence of all things seem so far away, and sati that sees dhamma as dhamma rises so rarely. As long as I understand that thinking is not the path (but is supportive of the path), and hence, there should be an urgency to see truth as it is, then thinking too can be the object of sati. Samatha should be developed too, although we should truly know that it is not the path. Reflections on the dhamma brings peace in daily life for me too. If I neither have the skill to reside in the divine abiding of the jhana, nor the conditions to have knowledge of realities, then thinking about the dhamma is better to taking excessive pleasures in the 5 sensualities. Can we force or want to have these reflections? When we think thus, at the moment, we don't understand the anattaness of all realities, or we are developing attachments which are not based on the 5 sensualities. Reflections on the dhamma come because of one's accumulations which are conditioned by hearing, studying, and association with the wise. kom 23038 From: dwlemen Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:16pm Subject: Whisper Object? Everyone, This may be a silly question, but is a "whisper object" and why does it seem to be associated with sight? I was listening to some of the tapes Sarah arranged for me and this term came up. (btw, Sarah, I'll get to your other message... just way behind in work!) Peace, Dave 23039 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, Ch 4, no 8. Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, Ch 4, no 8. On our last morning in Kraeng Kacang, when we had breakfast in the garden, Acharn Sujin first spoke about Dhamma in Thai. She explained that sacca ñåna is not merely theoretical knowledge of the four noble Truths, it includes also awareness of the dhammas one studies. If there can be sati at this moment we begin to have more understanding of all the dhammas we learn through our study and also of the four noble Truths. The right practice leads to detachment, but detachment is against our nature. We have accumulated clinging for aeons. When akusala arises and we believe that we should not be aware of such an object, it conditions the wrong Path. We may be impatient, frustrated, when sati does not often arise, there is a great deal of clinging to "I". We should be very sincere, very honest, to see when we are deluded by our attachment to result, to quick progress. We have to understand that paññå develops when there are the right conditions for its development: association with the right friend in Dhamma, listening, considering, asking questions, applying what one has heard. During our stay in Thailand we experienced the benefit of listening and discussing the Dhamma. It was most valuable to be reminded that when we read Suttas we have to understand dhamma appearing at this moment. In this way the messages contained in the Suttas become very relevant to our personal life. The Buddha taught Dhamma so that we can develop our own understanding. In Kraeng Kacang we had all our meals outside and after dinner, when it was already dark, a small group of us were sitting in a corner under a beautifully carved wooden canopy, discussing again Dhamma. Acharn Sujin reminded us that we should appreciate a moment of right understanding and not wish for more. Such a moment is very precious, it is accumulated so that understanding can grow. We read in the Dhammapada, vs 182: ³Difficult it is to be born human, difficult is the life of a man, difficult it is listening to the true Dhamma, difficult is the arising of enlightened ones.² We can still listen to the Dhamma and consider what we heard, because today the teachings are still available to us. These verses remind us that we should not be neglectful, but use every opportunity to listen, to study and to develop right understanding of what appears now. We were reminded time and again during our discussions that there are dhammas appearing right now and that they can be objects of sati sampajaññå. (end of Chapter, end of this series) Nina. 23040 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, [...] (Jaataka) Dear Jim, these discussions are important, I know there is interest on Pali list. I find it somewhat strange if I frwd this, although you gave permission. What do you think? Nina. op 19-06-2003 15:49 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > > Here's the discussion that took place on Buddha-L, Feb. 2-4, 1999. I > have strung together 7 messages and deleted repetitions [...] of > earlier messages. The subject line is: Canonicity of Jaataka. 23041 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 10:01pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Whisper Object? Dear Dave, I bet it said "visible" object! kom > -----Original Message----- > From: dwlemen [mailto:dwlemen@y...] > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 3:16 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Whisper Object? > > > Everyone, > > This may be a silly question, but is a "whisper > object" and why does 23042 From: bodhi2500 Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 10:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Somanassindriya Hi Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > In the Dispeller pasage, planes refer to bhumi and later we read (p158) > that the joy faculty is included in the sense sphere, the fine- material > sphere and the supramundane sphere. > > In the Psm passage (p118) which you quote from, I can't see any reference > to `4 planes' (bhumi). > I'm always impressed by your studies of Psm. I'd be grateful if you'd > explain in simple terms what brought you to be considering these > particular passages and questions. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s I note that `sixth as its basis' refers to cha.t.thaayatana or mind > base (manaayatana). > =============== Thanks for the reply. I had mistakenly assumed that because the somanassindriya was included in the sense sphere and the Lokuttara sphere, then it would also be included in the rupa and arupa spheres. But as the dispeller and the Vis. state it is only included in the sense, rupa and Lokuttara bhumi What brought me to be considering these passages was the passage in the Patisambhidamagga: At the moment of stream entry path etc all Dhammas born at that moment belong to the Lokuttara, which led me to further investigate those dhammas. Thanks Steve 23043 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 1:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, [...] (Jaataka) Hi Jim, and All, Please forgive my obtuseness - but is the consensus (or, at least, does Lance Cousins' final post indicate) that the Jataka verses and Tales are or are not Canonical? Or that the verses alone are; or that the verses and only some of the Tales are? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Here's the discussion that took place on Buddha-L, Feb. 2-4, 1999. I > have strung together 7 messages and deleted repetitions [...] of > earlier messages. The subject line is: Canonicity of Jaataka. > 23044 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:41am Subject: Reading the Texts Dear Group, If one were to methodically read through the Tipitaka, is there any recommended order thought to be the best way to tackle the task? I have the Digha, Majjhima, and Samyutta in the Wisdom editions plus Bhikkhu Nyanaponika and Bodhi's Anthology of suttas from the Anguttara (Altivira). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23045 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, [...] (Jaataka) warning: long and technical post =============================== Hi Jim (Howard, Nina, Christine & All), Thanks for showing me the interesting messages and for editing them so nicely. I’d like to try to summarise what I understand to date on this question and will be glad of any further comments or input from you or anyone else. I hope I haven't quoted you out of context and apologies for any Pali errors - I've tried to get it right here!! ================================== 1. It’s generally accepted that, as in the case of the Dhammapada, only the verses are part of the Canon. The stories -- both the earlier birth stories (atiita-vatthu) and the stories of the present (paccuppanna-vatthu) which are given a connection (anusandhi) are included in the A.t.hakathaa (commentary). 2. The A.t.thakathaa was probably only completed in the form we know it by Buddhaghosa, or more likely very soon after Buddhaghosa by another commentator in Sri Lanka. Malalasekera in 'The Pali Literature of Ceylon', p126 gives detailed reasons for this conclusion.and suggests that probably the compilation was by an immediate successor of Buddhaghosa such as Culla Buddhaghosa. 3. Evidence from various sources suggests that the birth stories in some form were recited from the outset with the verses. In particular: a) The meaning of Jaataka itself Many of the Jaataka verses on their own without the Cmy do not necessarily show this meaning. Jim wrote: “Aggavamsa (in the Saddaniti) gives two derivations for this word. One takes the 'ka' part to come from the root 'ke' (to sound) giving the verb 'kaayati' (= katheti or pakaaseti -- it explains what has been before (jaata.m = bhuuta.m = atiita.m) in reference to the Blessed One's previous conduct). There is a similar explanation given in Sariputta's Vinaya tika. The second derivation takes the 'ka' as a secondary affix and the word just means 'birth'. It is the first derivation that is applied to the Jataka title and anga. I was thinking that the Cariyapitaka could fit the Jataka criteria.” ============= b)The definition of Jaataka as included in the nava’nga, the ninefold classification of the Buddhavacana, which recurs in the Suttanta, Vinaya and Abhidhamma texts. In these contexts, Jaataka suggests more than just the verses. From the commentary sources we read the following definitions of Jaataka in the nava’nga: >>--- Jim wrote on B-list (Feb4, 1999): “In what seems to be an older scheme, there is a ninefold (nava'nga)arrangement of the canonical works, one of the nine being the Jaataka. In Dhammapaala's sub-commentary (.tiika) on the Suma'ngalavilaasinii,there is what appears to be a definition that suggests that the past stories along with their gaatha-s is what a Jaataka refers to. "tathaa sati pi gaathabandhabhaave bhagavato atiitesu jaatiisu cariyaanubhaavappakaasakesu jaatakasa~n~naa." (DA.T Vol. I, p.41 PTS ed.)” >>Lance Cousins on B-list translates: “Even although there is composition in verse, the name 'Jaataka' is for which make known the Lord's glorious behaviour in his past births. (supply pa.ti.t.thitaa and sutta-visesesu from earlier in the passage)” ============== I’d like to add further from the Baahiranidaana of the Samantapaasaadikaa (Buddhaghosa’s Comy to the Vinaya), under ‘The First Great Convocation’ (31) in definition of Jaataka in the nava’nga: “Apa.n.nakajaatakadiini pa~n~naasadhikaani pa~nca jaatakasataani jaatakan ti veditabba.m” transl as: “The 550 Birth Stories commencing with Apa.n.naka should be known as Jaataka (Birth Stories).” (Note that the Apa.n.naka Jaataka, for example, contains only one verse without reference to the Birth Story.) According to the DPPN, the nava’nga are “grouped according to the subject matter (DA.i.15, 24).” http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/j/jaataka.htm (Later there are occasional examples in the same text of an Elder giving a Jaataka, eg Mahaanaradakassapa Jaataka 544, and 84,000 listeners being enlightened as a result. Surely not just from the pithy verses alone? ) DPPN also states: “The canonical book of the Játakas (so far unpublished) contains only the verses, but it is almost certain that from the first there must have been handed down an oral commentary giving the stories in prose. This commentary later developed into the Játakatthakathá.” http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/j/jaatakatthakathaa.htm =============== c) There are many references to the nava’nga and Jaataka as part of the Khudddakapaatha as recited at the First Council. Therefore, texts included in the nava’ngas are canonical, I assume. See Baahiranidaana, Atthasaalinii etc =============== d) Introduction to the Jaataka In the ‘The Story of the Lineage (Nidaanakathaa)’(Introduction to the Jataka Tales(transl by Mrs Rhys-Davids),a little detail is given at the outset about how ‘The Apa.n.naka and other Births’ were ‘recounted on various occasions by the great illustrious Sage’, how they were ‘collected together and added to the canon of Scripture by those who made the recension of the Scriptures, and rehearsed by them under the name of THE JAATAKA'. The commentator proceeds to write his commentary (i.e the Nidaanakathaa), “a commentary based upon the method of exposition current among the inmates of the Great Monastery.” ================== e) 35 of the Játakas have been included in a separate compilation, called the Cariyá Pitaka, part of the Khuddakanikaaya. ================ f) Accounts of Jaataka stories in the Nikaayas,eg Tittira and Sukha-vihaari Jaatakas in Cullavagga, Mahaasudassana Jaataka in Digha Nikaaya. =================== g) Other texts such as the Culla Niddesa, which refers to five hundred Játakas, (pañcajátakasatáni). 500 was the number seen by Fa Hsien in Ceylon in the fifth century, and obviously highly revered at this time. Malindapa~nha gives numerous acounts and references. Other references in the commentaries to the reciting of a Jaataka by all Buddhas when the need arises. eg Madhuratthavilaasinii (The Clarifier of Sweet Meaning, reciting of Vessantara Jataka and under regulations for all Buddhas: “telling a Jaataka (-story) when a need had arisen (a.t.thuppatti)” Malalaskera agrees with TW Rhys Davids and others about ‘conclusive evidence’ of a separate Jataka book at a very early date and that “a collection called the Jatakas existed at the time of the Council of Vesaali (around 380BC), for that formed one of the portions of the Tipitaka rejected or altered by the dissentient Vesaalian monks. (Diipavamasa vv35)”. ========================= h) Bas-reliefs and rock paintings of the third century BC in India have been found illustrating a number of Játaka stories in Bharhut, Sanchi and Amaraavatii suggesting the existence of a prose collection. =========================== i) References to commentaries being included in ‘buddhavacana’ and thereby the Pali canon. Jim wrote: “I have come across instances of the term 'buddhavacana' being defined as the Tipitaka combined with the commentaries (saa.t.thakatha.m). The commentaries are like companion volumes.” In addition, often a sutta would be given in brief and then one of the chief disciples would explain in greater detail. As I’ve quoted before, Malalasekera writes (The Pali Literature of Ceylon); "When later the text of the canon came to be compiled, arranged, and edited, some of the expositions found their way into the Pitakas and were given a permanent place therein. Thus we have the Sangiti-suttanta of the Digha Nikaya, ascribed to Sariputta and forming a complete catechism of terms and passages of exegetical nature. Such was also the Sacca-vibhanga (an exposition of the four Noble Truths) of the Majjhima, which later found its proper place in the second book of the Abhidhamma-Pitaka, and also the Madhu-pindika-sutta of Maha-Kaccayana, included in the Majjhima Nikaya. It sometimes happened that for a proper understanding of the text, explanations of a commentarial nature were quite essential; and in such cases the commentary was naturally incorporated into the text and formed part of the text itself.......Then there is the Niddesa, a whole book of commentary on texts now included in the Sutta-nipata; and there are passages clearly of a commentarial nature scattered throughout the Nikayas." ********************************************************* In Conclusion, as with many other commentaries, the roots are likely to be based in the original Pali canon as recited at the First Council. While TW Rhys Davids suggests the birth stories are earlier than the verses and handed down in Ceylon in Sinhalese while the verses remained intact in Pali, Malalaskera suggests the original Jaataka book, like the Cariyaa-Pi.taka, consisted only of verses. He also stresses that the verses we have now in the collections are mostly quite unintelligible without the story. As the evidence suggests the Jataka commentary was always shown the greatest respect in Sri Lanka and other Theravada countries, obviously there was no suggestion of any alteration from the Sinhalese and other earlier commentaries. In Cowell’s introduction to the Jataka Stories, we read (and I tend to agree) that as the commentary text as we have it “was merely a redaction of materials handed down from very early times in the Buddhist community, it is not a question of much importance except for Paali literary history. The gaathaas are undoubetedly old, and they necessarily imply the previous existence of the stories, though not perhaps in the exact words in which we now possess them”. With metta, Sarah ======== 23046 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 5:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] Whisper Object? Hi Dave, --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Dave, > > I bet it said "visible" object! .... That was my guess too. In Thai there’s no ‘v’, a muted ‘b’ and no final ‘l’ sound, so a Thai speaker could well be ‘whispering’ visible object;-) Besides the chance to learn a little Pali and Thai, you also get some free Thai-glish thrown in too;-) Look forward to hearing more.... Metta, Sarah ====== 23047 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 7:00am Subject: Burma trip Dear All Those Interested in the upcoming Burma Trip: Please forgive the delay in getting a final itinerary to you. The proposed itinerary by the company that had done the Sri Lanka trip was rejected since they could not provide more convenient flight connections between the various cities. So, we are now looking at other companies to provide proposed itineraries and prices to us. So, when a new company and itinerary is finalized, I shall let you know immediately. metta, Betty _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 e-mail: beyugala@k... 23048 From: Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 7:20am Subject: Doubt and Belief (re: [dsg] Mental Objects, 104) Hi, Mike (and Larry) - In a message dated 6/20/2003 7:34:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, mlnease@z... writes: > Hi Larry, > > What an outstanding passage. Makes me wonder how anyone > can doubt the value > of the commentaries and subcommentaries. > > mike ============================ I think that to doubt the value of the commentaries and subcommentaries in the sense of simply dismissing them as "not Buddha word" is to be a fool. Plain and simple - a fool. However, the Buddha even with reference to his own direct teachings, instructed us to to carefully investigate matters for ourselves, to come to directly see what makes sense as best we can. Certainly this applies to the writings of others, regardless of how *purportedly* advanced those others may be, others who we know for sure are not the Buddha (though some *might* be arahants). And even an arahant, for that matter, might fail to be a clear expositor and, while having complete and perfect insight into the nature of the world (in terms of the tilakkhana and in terms of unimpaired direct vision), may fail to have complete and perfect mundane knowledge. They have not cultivated the paramitas that a Buddha has. As soon as we become nothing but passive recipients of "received word", we have become "true belivers", and we have abrogated the responsibility of being a lamp unto ourselves. Of course, it is also encumbant upon ourselves, and critically so, to take our own understanding as tentative and partial, and as quite possibly flawed, and to always be prepared to revise our understanding when we come to see more clearly. So, as soon as we become unquestioning acceptors of the teachings of other or of our own "beliefs of the moment," we also become fools, plain and simple. At least that is how I see the matter, and how I think we need to caution ourslves. With metta, Howard 23049 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, [...] (Jaataka) Dear Nina, I wouldn't normally have thought of forwarding it to the Pali list. I think it might be better to hold off for now and just keep it aside until conditions are suitable eg. somebody raises a question or starts a discussion on the Jatakas and forwarding such a compilation of the thoughts of some academics might be a fitting and helpful contribution, just as I had thought in posting it to DSG. I should mention that I had deleted parts of the original messages which I considered unneccessary to our discussion. Richard P. Hayes had also asked about the canonicity of the Milindapa~nha which I left out. I thought it was important to send some of that 1999 discussion as it is likely that it no longer exists in the archives of that list and by posting some of it here it stands a better chance of being preserved and passed on. Best wishes, Jim > Dear Jim, > these discussions are important, I know there is interest on Pali list. I > find it somewhat strange if I frwd this, although you gave permission. What > do you think? > Nina. > op 19-06-2003 15:49 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > > > > Here's the discussion that took place on Buddha-L, Feb. 2-4, 1999. I > > have strung together 7 messages and deleted repetitions [...] of > > earlier messages. The subject line is: Canonicity of Jaataka. > > > > > > 23050 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 8:07am Subject: Re: Doubt and Belief (re: [dsg] Mental Objects, 104) Hi Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:20 AM Subject: Doubt and Belief (re: [dsg] Mental Objects, 104) No arguments here--hope you didn't take my comments to suggest that anyone should "become nothing but passive recipients of "received word"," or "true belivers". mike 23051 From: Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 9:03am Subject: Re: Doubt and Belief (re: [dsg] Mental Objects, 104) Hi, Mike - In a message dated 6/21/2003 10:07:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, mlnease@z... writes: > No arguments here--hope you didn't take my comments to suggest that anyone > should "become nothing but passive recipients of "received > word"," or "true > belivers". ------------------------------- Howard: No, I certainly did not, and I apologize if anyone draws that inference from what I wrote. You merely praised that particular commentary, and pointed out how much value is to be found in the commentaries. Straightforward, correct, and, in my opinion, unarguable. I expressed agreement with you, but I also added an additional take to offset what might be an approach that some folks might take that I think would be an error. ---------------------------- > > mike =========================== With metta, Howard 23052 From: Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 9:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi all, Regarding: "...Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path." It occurred to me that perhaps "padhaana" (effort, endeavor) is a near synonym for, or linked to, "hetu" (root cause). In that case "understanding" (panna) would be distinguished by its effect. If the cognition of impermanence inspires one to grab quickly before the object is gone then that is probably not panna. But if the cognition of impermanence diminishes one's desire for the object then that probably is panna. Also the cognition of impermanence could condition path-wise efforts. Larry 23053 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:04am Subject: FW: reflection on pariyaadaaya .thassanti. Dear all, As I mentioned, I did some research for Pali yahoo, on the passages Jim kindly provided me with. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 09:18:11 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: reflection on pariyaadaaya .thassanti. Dear friends, on account of my research I have some reflections on: pariyaadaaya .thassanti. The use of .ttithati, to stay, persevere, helps me to go more deeply into the meaning of the suttas where this phrase occurs. This morning at breakfast my husband and I were listening to the Pu.n.na sutta, SN IV, 88, which I had spoken on tape. The Buddha explained to Pu.n.na about the six objects experienced through the six doorways: visible object, sound, odour, flavour, tangible object and mental object, which are inciting to lust.²If a monk be enamoured of them, if he welcome them, persist in clinging to them...there comes a lure upon him²: ta~nce bhikkhu abhinandati abhivadati ajjhosaaya ti.t.thati...uppajjati nanda (lure)... ajjhosaaya ti.t.thati is an interesting and meaningful variation of pariyaadaaya .thassanti : ajjhosaaya is the gerund of ajjhosati, to be attached. Just as pariyaadaaya which is also a gerund. He persists in clinging. Why not just clinging, why, persits in clinging? This reminds us that clinging is deeply accumulated and very persistent. It cannot be uprooted immediately. Further on we read the negation: naajjhosaaya ti.t.thati, if a monk persists not in clinging... The Buddha taught Pu.n.na about the six objects before he went to the fierce people of Sunaaparanta. Pu.n.na had perfect equanimity. When the Buddha said how he would feel if they would abuse and revile him, he said to the Buddha: ²Kindly indeed are the men of Sunaaparanta...in that they do not smite me a blow with their hands...² He spoke in a similar way when the Buddha asked him how he would feel if they would beat him strike him and stab himwith a sword, and even kill him. The Buddha had first explained about ultimate realities, paramattha dhammas, all objects that can be experienced through the six doors. In the ultimate sense there are no persons that can hurt one, only different objects experienced through the six doors. Pu.n.na attained arahatship while in Sunaaparanta. This research on pariyaadaaya helped me to be attentive to the phrases where it occurs and similar phrases with ti.t.thati. It is a reminder of the persistence of clinging. Vipassana, understanding of all objects through the six doors has to be developed life after life, this is the only way that clinging can be eradicated. Nina. 23054 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 1:16pm Subject: Re: Reading the Texts --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > If one were to methodically read through the Tipitaka, is there any > recommended order thought to be the best way to tackle the task? > I have the Digha, Majjhima, and Samyutta in the Wisdom editions plus > Bhikkhu Nyanaponika and Bodhi's Anthology of suttas from the > Anguttara (Altivira). > >___ Dear Christine, No order for me but I like to read over the salayatana section of the samyutta nikaya often, Volume 4 of the PTS - not sure pages of ven. Bodhis trans. Robertk 23055 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reading the Texts Hi RobK and Christine, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > No order for me but I like to read over the salayatana section of > the samyutta nikaya often, Volume 4 of the PTS - not sure pages of > ven. Bodhis trans. ..... I would have said just the same;-) The Salayatana section is the first part of vol 2 in the Bodhi trans. (p1133 onwards). It's the section Victor, Howard and I have been discussing. I'd be glad if either of you joined in, esp. when we go away. I mentioned the 'Numerical Discourses' the other day because it's a neat, slim volume and easier to read and make sense of perhaps for someone pretty new to Buddhism. What do you think, Chris? Other small collections like Nyantiloka's 'The Buddha's Path to Deliverance' and 'The Word of the Buddha' shoud be highly recommended too I think. Also Nyanamoli's 'the Life of the Buddha'- all directly from the texts. Perhaps others might give their suggestions or preferred order too of the Nikayas. I'd be curious to hear. Metta, Sarah 23056 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, [...] (Jaataka) Hi Christine, From my reading, I think the general consensus is that (if you take 'canonical' to be what belongs to the Tipitaka proper) the Jataka book contains the verses only while the stories that go with the verses belong to its commentary (Jaataka-a.t.thakathaa). Sarah has since posted an interesting summary with more information and points of view from other writers on the subject. Best wishes, Jim > Hi Jim, and All, > > Please forgive my obtuseness - but is the consensus (or, at least, > does Lance Cousins' final post indicate) that the Jataka verses and > Tales are or are not Canonical? Or that the verses alone are; or > that the verses and only some of the Tales are? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23057 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 5:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, [...] (Jaataka) Hi Sarah, > warning: long and technical post > =============================== > > Hi Jim (Howard, Nina, Christine & All), > > Thanks for showing me the interesting messages and for editing them > so nicely. > > I'd like to try to summarise what I understand to date on this > question and will be glad of any further comments or input > from you or anyone else. > I hope I haven't quoted you out of context and apologies for any > Pali errors - I've tried to get it right here!! > ================================== I thought your long summary was interesting and certainly well-worth reading. I'd like to comment on the following quote from me in 3 (i): > i) References to commentaries being included in 'buddhavacana' and > thereby the Pali canon. > > Jim wrote: "I have come across instances of the term 'buddhavacana' > being defined as the Tipitaka combined with the commentaries > (saa.t.thakatha.m). I think I have probably erred on this point. I was relying on memory alone when I wrote that and when I saw you quoting me just now I thought I'd better start looking for some commentarial references to back it up. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find anything and have some doubt that I will. So I'd advise you to disregard that point of mine for now. Mind you, I don't think it unreasonable to consider the commentaries to belong to the buddhavacana if you interpret the 'buddha-' part in a wider sense to include the arahants (many of whom were responsible for the a.t.thakathas in the first 500 years) and the fact that it contains a good deal spoken by the Buddha himself eg. the Jataka stories. Best wishes, Jim 23058 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 8:51pm Subject: Re: Rebirth and Meditation Hi Sarah, I reread those conversations between Mike and Herman, and appreciated them, thank you. It is good to occasionally dare to face the unthinkable - - to face the possibility that the Dhamma is not ultimate truth and that the Buddha and the Ariyans were not what they claimed to be. (!!!) Whenever I consider the alternatives to the Dhamma (the various eternalisms and annihilationisms), I am struck by their total lack of credibility. Their flaws are so glaringly obvious. The reality of the present moment, is the only reality that stands up to critical investigation. Given that, what can go wrong? What is the worst-case scenario? Let's imagine that no good comes from good action and no bad from bad action. So what? There is still only the present moment and no being to be harmed by anything. As it happens, the Buddha tells that there are, in fact, fruits of good and bad actions and so we are inspired to live the good life. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Ken H, > > You were asking Mike recently about his ideas on rebirth, I think. I was > just sorting through our Swiss hiking maps and papers for our trip next > week when I came across some of his posts on this very topic from exactly > two years ago;-) 23059 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 9:56pm Subject: Sound Files Dear Group, Here are some Sound Files that may be of use. Some are chants and singing, but the majority are Dhamma Talks (do Buddhists use the word Sermon?) All the links worked today. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The Trouble is that you think you have time--- Pali and English chants of precepts and homages, guided meditations: http://www.vipassana.com/audio_files/index.php Talks by Rodney Smith, Christina Feldman, Sharon Salzberg and James Baraz: http://www.seattleinsight.org/onlineclasses.htm Talks by Ajahn Brahmavamso et al. (about 90), Bhikkhu Bodhi (about 18), Ven. Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda (2), Ven. Ajahn Yantra Amaro (2) http://watthai.net/sounds.htm Forty three audio talks by various well known lay and ordained buddhists:(Christopher Titmuss, Sylvia Boorstein, Joseph Goldstein, Rodney Smith, Ajahn Amaro, Jack Cornfield and lots more) http://www.dharmastream.org/dharmatalks.html Seventy five audio talks by Ajahn Brahamavamso, Ajahn Sister Vayama, Ajahn Nyanadhammo http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/audio.html A variety of Pali Chanting (P), Mantra (M) and various Songs (S) that have become familiar to participants of the family camps at Amaravati Monastery ...and something called "The Singing Chickens - a loose look at the Buddha's first sermon" Click on 'Downloads' 'Sounds' http://www.buddhamind.info/leftside/index.htm 23060 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:19pm Subject: Websites for General Dhamma and Abhidhamma articles and books. Dear Sarah, and All, I often find articles are a great help - general articles on Theravada Buddhism can be found at: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebidx.htm Additiional articles, including BPS wheel booklets, and the Canon can be found at the Theravada Text Archives at Access to Insight: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/index.html Anders Honore (who I think you said was travelling in Thailand presently) has an excellent site with writings catalogued under separate traditions: http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/index.htm The book by Nyanatiloka Thera - "Word of the Buddha" is available on- line at http://www.enabling.org/ia/vipassana/Archive/N/Nyanatiloka/WOB/ (I have a borrowed copy of Path to Deliverance" (Nyanatiloka) - I think it is only available in hard copy from a bookshop.) And an edited cut 'n paste of Abhidhamma url's from the Useful Posts: Article: Abhidhamma and Practice http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhidhamma_and_practice.htm Article: Be here now http://www.abhidhamma.org/be%20here%20now.htm Article: 'Abhidhamma Notes' http://www.dhammastudy.com/Introduction.html Article: Understanding Reality http://www.abhidhamma.org/understanding%20reality.html Article: 'Some Introductory Notes on Abhidhamma' http://www.baynet.net/~arcc/dhamma/abhi1.html The Abhidhamma Philosophy (about nine pages) http://www.buddhanet.net/abhidh01.htm Fourteen essays by members of a group of lay people who studied the Abhidhamma "The Abhidhamma Papers" http://www.samatha.org/publications/ Article: Abhidhamma and Vipassana http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm e-books online: http://www.vipassana.info/contents-vipassana.htm e-Books in multiple formats on-line: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Articles and books graded as to level of difficulty: http://www.dhammastudy.com/engindex.html And anytime is a good time for wandering around in the dsg 'Useful Posts'. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23061 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, for other lists. Dear Jim, It is all right Jim, just as you think fit. I better leave it to you. Not so long ago we discussed the Jatakas on Pali list and there was a question about verses and stories, and someone wondered what was canonical. I'll let you know when it comes up again, best wishes and many thanks, Nina. op 21-06-2003 16:50 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > I wouldn't normally have thought of forwarding it to the Pali list. I > think it might be better to hold off for now 23062 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, [...] (Jaataka) Dear Sarah and Jim, I am extremely grateful for all the references re origins of the texts. Most beneficial and worth while. May it help everybody to have more confidence in all the Tipitaka texts and commentaries, Nina. op 21-06-2003 13:59 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > 1. It’s generally accepted that, as in the case of the Dhammapada, only > the verses are part of the Canon. 23063 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 22, 2003 3:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities (archery corner) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: ... I see the process of thought creation as one which is done in a "consciousness process", but one in which the level of discernment is what is called "subliminal" these days. Thoughts are mental constructs, and that constructing does involve mental discernment, if nothing else to hold onto the "proto-thought" so far constructed, rather like a sculptor holds onto his/her clay or stone . But there is no (usual) conscious awareness of any step except the last at which the thought discernment is at the level of clarity that we call "being conscious" in everyday parlance. As far as whether or not that last step is part of the constructive phase, or is purely observational, I just don't know. I suspect that it is discernment only, without sankharic construction going on, and similar to that of an initial stage of discerning a sight or sound, but I don't know this for a fact, and certainly don't insist on it. Thjat last step *might* include the hammering in the the final nail. ----------------------------------------------------- To my mind, the important thing here, and something on which we seem to agree ;-)), is that thoughts are nothing other than mental constructs. This distinguishes them from sense-door objects which, as we also agree, are not merely mental constructs but are dhammas that arise and are experienced by consciousness. As constructs of consciousness, thoughts do not arise to be experienced by consciousness. As regards your description of the thinking process (as perceived by us), I do think we need to keep in mind that insight is concerned with the *nature* of dhammas that are *presently arising*, more so than with the process by which they have come to arise or to be object of consciousness. So while details of processes are important to learn about, in that this kind of knowledge is a necessary part of the foundation for awareness /insight, the processes themselves are not the object of insight. The practical significance of this is that while thoughts and sense-door objects share in common the fact that both are object of a moment consciousness, that is where the similarity ends. Furthermore, this similarity is of no real consequence as far as the question of insight is concerned, since the 'nature' of a dhamma is not wrapped up in the fact of its being the object of consciousness at that moment. Nama can be object of consciousness just as much as rupa, yet their natures as to be experienced by insight are quite different. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: That's exactly what I mean. I am speaking only phenomenologically. I am not presuming "physical objects out there" that have properties such as hardness; if there are such things, I am not talking about them. ------------------------------------------------------------ I agree there's no need to presume hardness as being 'out there', but neither should one presume the other way and equate it with thoughts in the sense of being mind-created. --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree completely. This is why I said "SEEM to refer". There is an inherent defect in concepts. They tend to fool by nature. (Nonetheless they are useful.) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Inherent defect in concepts? Who's giving concepts a hard time now? ;-)). Again, I would suggest that any perceived 'defect' is in the mind of the perceiver/creator of the concept, and is not inherent in the concept itself. The enlightened being thinks in concepts too, but there is no inherent defect there, surely. > ----------------------------------------------------- > H: But they [the objects of the sense-door consciousness] are > kamma-created, which ultimately means they are cetana-created. But, > yes, they are not mental constructs in the same way that thoughts > are. > ------------------------------------------------------ ... -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm speaking only phenomenologically, Jon. I'm not hypothesizing about what might exist (ultimately) beyond experience. -------------------------------------------------------- Understood, but that still doesn't make sense-door objects kamma-created, as I see it. It is here that the> > individual's kamma/vipaka comes into play. Kamma is a condition for > sense-door consciousness to experience a particular rupa, and this > sense-door consciousness is a moment of vipaka consciousness. > 'Vipaka' refers to the consciousness that experiences, not the rupa > that is experienced; in no sense does the rupa thereby become kamma > created (according to my understanding of the standard reading of the > texts). ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I am only addressing momentary discernment and its internal object, not alleged external entities. ------------------------------------------------------ Yes, this is the focus of the teachings. But without some background info, i.e., with only our innate ignorance and wrong view to go on, our perception of momentary discernment and its internal object is bound to be severely skewed. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Aside from the fact that I find the phenomenalist view attractive and that it clarifies much in the Dhamma for me (though not necessarily for anyone else), it is more the other way around. It is obvious to me that whatever is actually experienced is "internal", and anything "external" is merely hypothesized (and quite possibly concept-only), and it is this that makes me a phenomenalist. --------------------------------------------------------- But there is no inconsistency, as I see it, in regarding 'whatever is actually experienced is "internal", and anything "external" is merely hypothesized', on the one hand, and acknowledging the *possibility* that whatever is actually experienced, for example the sense-door objects, arise in this world due to conditions that do not include their being the object of someone's experience. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It seems to me that "the teachings" put enormous emphasis on how our mind, its predispositions, its accumulations, and its defilements radically effect the nature and quality of our perception. All the magic show similes, all the talk of seeing things other than how they are (such as seeing the impermanent as permanent) are examples of this. -------------------------------------------------------- It depends what you mean by perception. I think the parts of the teachings you refer to here are talking about the mind-door moments that follow the moments of sense-door experience, rather than the actual moment of sense-door experience themselves. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, I do agree that the beginning stage of a 5-sensory perception is "pristine", but even as soon as sa~n~na comes into play, the mind is involved in a "mixing operation" of past experience with current experience. ------------------------------------------------------- Just on a technicality here, sanna is said to accompany every citta, including the moments of 5 sense-door perception, although its function there is simply to mark the object. So I think the 'mixing operation' you mention is something that happens in the mind-door processes that follow the sense-door process. Let's not forget that these 'pristine' moments, although soon to be sullied by kusala/akusala tendencies, are still arising at a sufficiently furious pace right now to give the impression of continuous experience through all 5 doors simultaneously. To my understanding, awareness can take successive cittas of a particular kind, for example successive moments of eye-door consciousness, as its object notwithstanding that each lasts only for a moment and is quickly superseded by thinking about the visible object that has just been experienced. In other words, awareness is not something that 'catches' single moments of consciousness, or mental factors, or rupas (or whatever), let alone consecutive moments of different phenomena, but rather is aware of multiple moments of a single kind of fundamental phenomena -- whether that be consciousness, or a particular mental factor or rupa -- even though there are many moments between each such moment and many other kinds of fundamental phenomena arising. ... =============================== I find this is an interesting conversation, Jon. Thank you. :-) Me too, Howard. Thanks for the opportunity to reflect on these areas. Jon 23064 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 22, 2003 5:55am Subject: Re: Doubt and Belief (re: [dsg] Mental Objects, 104) Howard This may surprise you, but I essentially agree with what you say below ;-)). In particular, I agree with what you say about those who are mere passive recipients of the "received word". Perhaps we differ only in the importance of finding out what exactly is the "received word", something that I find is a never-ending task in that the more I understand from the texts, the more I see there is in the texts to be learnt. On the question of the need to "take our own understanding as tentative and partial, and as quite possibly flawed", I would say that this understates the extent of our ignorance and wrong view, but this is a matter of emphasis rather than substance, and I endorse your comments here overall. Thanks for sharing these thoughts and setting out the position so clearly. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Mike (and Larry) - ... > ============================ > I think that to doubt the value of the commentaries and > subcommentaries in the sense of simply dismissing them as "not > Buddha word" is to be a fool. Plain and simple - a fool. > However, the Buddha even with reference to his own direct > teachings, instructed us to to carefully investigate matters for > ourselves, to come to directly see what makes sense as best we can. > Certainly this applies to the writings of others, regardless of how > *purportedly* advanced those others may be, others who we know for > sure are not the Buddha (though some *might* be arahants). And even > an arahant, for that matter, might fail to be a clear expositor > and, while having complete and perfect insight into the nature of > the world (in terms of the tilakkhana and in terms of unimpaired > direct vision), may fail to have complete and perfect mundane > knowledge. They have not cultivated the paramitas that a Buddha > has. > As soon as we become nothing but passive recipients of > "received word", we have become "true belivers", and we have > abrogated the responsibility of being a lamp unto ourselves. Of > course, it is also encumbant upon ourselves, and critically so, to > take our own understanding as tentative and partial, and as quite > possibly flawed, and to always be prepared to revise our > understanding when we come to see more clearly. So, as soon as we > become unquestioning acceptors of the teachings of other or of our > own "beliefs of the moment," we also become fools, plain and > simple. At least that is how I see the matter, and how I think we > need to caution ourslves. > > With metta, > Howard 23065 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jun 22, 2003 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rebirth and Meditation Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Dan’s alarm classic > > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9139.html > ============================== > I've reread this post of Dan's. I agree that it is very well > written > and very clear. Dan is a bright and literate man. I also don't agree > with a > word of what the post maintains. As I see it, it presents the life of a > Buddhist > as no different from that of anyone else, and, identifying "doing" > anything > with carrying out ritual, it advocates a perspective of randomness as > far as > progress towards liberation is concerned. To me, this perspective is > very far > from the Dhamma. But, then, you knew that! ;-) ..... ;-) I know most people here will also agree with you too.... Hopefully Dan will respond himself one sunny day if he wishes..... I certainly agree that being 'bright and literate' has nothing to do with whether the message is right or wrong (or skilful or unskilful;-)) Metta, Sarah ====== 23066 From: Date: Sun Jun 22, 2003 8:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities (archery corner) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 6/22/2003 5:12:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Just on a technicality here, sanna is said to accompany every citta, > including the moments of 5 sense-door perception, although its > function there is simply to mark the object. So I think the 'mixing > operation' you mention is something that happens in the > mind-door > processes that follow the sense-door process. ========================== As you noted, there is close to no disagreement between us on the current topic. The only tiny portion of your post that I will address here is what I quote above, and I do so to clarify my meaning for you. I see sa~n~na as playing a dual role. The primary role is indeed played at every mind-moment, serving to make a "mark". The secondary may not occur with every mind moment - it provides a "looking back" or memory function which compares current features with previously saved "sa~n~na marks" serving a recognitional/perceptual function, and it is this matching of current features to past notings that I referred to as a "mixing operation" of past experience with current experience. This looking back and comparing is the very beginning of the conceptual process as I understand it. It may well be that this function of sa~n~na occurs, as you say, in the mind-door processes. Actually that makes complete sense. With metta, Howard 23067 From: Charles Clifford Date: Sun Jun 22, 2003 9:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reading the Texts --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi RobK and Christine, > > --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > > No order for me but I like to read over the salayatana section of > > the samyutta nikaya often, Volume 4 of the PTS - not sure pages of > > ven. Bodhis trans. > ..... > I would have said just the same;-) The Salayatana section is the first > part of vol 2 in the Bodhi trans. (p1133 onwards). It's the section > Victor, Howard and I have been discussing. I'd be glad if either of you > joined in, esp. when we go away. > > I mentioned the 'Numerical Discourses' the other day because it's a neat, > slim volume and easier to read and make sense of perhaps for someone > pretty new to Buddhism. What do you think, Chris? Other small collections > like Nyantiloka's 'The Buddha's Path to Deliverance' and 'The Word of the > Buddha' shoud be highly recommended too I think. Also Nyanamoli's 'the > Life of the Buddha'- all directly from the texts. > > Perhaps others might give their suggestions or preferred order too of the > Nikayas. I'd be curious to hear. > > Metta, > > Sarah > Hello Everyone, I highly recommend the following booka to start one's studies because they both contain very important suttas, as well as illuminating commentaries on the teachings: "The First Discourse of the Buddha", Dr. Rewata Dhamma, Wisdom Publications, ISBN 0-86171-104-1 "The Four Foundational of Mindfulness", Venerable U Silananda, Wisdom Publications, ISBN 0-86171-092-4 Whatever suttas one takes up, it is highly adviseable to also study as many commentaries associated with that sutta that are available. Studying a sutta by itself, without the aid of commentaries, is very challenging, and not as productive a use of one's time as when authentic commentaries are available to aid us. By authentic, I mean those that contribute to the cultivation of samma ditthi, a.k.a., skillful understanding. Of course, when balancing the demands on your time, the cultivation of morality, metta, mindfulnes and vipassana should take precedence over sutta study, as these will result in a far greater contribution towards the manifestation of samma ditthi then sutta study by itself can. With metta, Chuck 23068 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jun 22, 2003 9:57am Subject: RE: [dsg] Whisper Object? Ah, yes, Other quick lessons on Thai-glish: 1) The consonent at the end of a word is strictly optional, dogs and dog are roughly the same thing 2) The l and the r don't sound that much different, and neither do the sh or ch. You should try catching me saying fish. 3) The articles are way superfluous: we don't really need them since it is contextually obvious. This is highly similar to Hawaiian English. 4) You think pali is tough? In Thai, the same words are used with different meanings. For example, mana or conceit, in Thai it means diligence, and many Thais have this name, even though the word has a clear root from pali. Vinnana (consciousness) is roughly equated to souls or ghosts... Hmm.... kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 5:53 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] Whisper Object? > > > Hi Dave, > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Dave, > > > > I bet it said "visible" object! > .... > That was my guess too. In Thai there’s no ‘v’, a muted ‘b’ and no final > ‘l’ sound, so a Thai speaker could well be ‘whispering’ visible object;-) > Besides the chance to learn a little Pali and Thai, you also get some free > Thai-glish thrown in too;-) > > Look forward to hearing more.... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 23069 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 22, 2003 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Dear Larry, op 21-06-2003 18:38 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Regarding: "...Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, > it brings about the penetration of the characteristics and it brings > about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path." > > It occurred to me that perhaps "padhaana" (effort, endeavor) is a near > synonym for, or linked to, "hetu" (root cause). In that case > "understanding" (panna) would be distinguished by its effect. N: It is viriya cetasika, and this is different according as it arises with different cittas. In this case viriya and panna condition one another by way of conascent condition and other conditions. L: If the > cognition of impermanence inspires one to grab quickly before the object > is gone then that is probably not panna. N: Right, it is desire and thus counter productive. L:But if the cognition of > impermanence diminishes one's desire for the object then that probably > is panna. N: It is a degree of panna, it sees that what is gone immediately is not attractive. L:Also the cognition of impermanence could condition path-wise > efforts. N: it is not a matter of "I have to have endeavour or effort", panna takes the lead, but there are many stages to be developed, even after the realization of the arising and falling away of nama and rupa. We have read: about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path> There is endeavour; it is necessary to have endurance, courage, fervor (atapi sampajano satima), patience, to be aware again and again, developing understanding. One has to be like a hero. But: not with an idea of self who has endeavour. Think of the Bodhisatta's courage, as we read in the perfections, in the ³Exposition of Jatukannin¹s Questions² (Khuddaka Nikåya) that Jatukannin had heard that the Buddha was courageous and that he therefore was called a hero, víra... We read: Appreciating your endeavour to study the Visuddhimagga, Nina. 23070 From: Date: Sun Jun 22, 2003 5:05pm Subject: Way 105, Mental Objects Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, "The Way of Mindfulness" trans. & ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika), Dhammapala Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html The Contemplation of Mental Objects The Factors of Enlightenment The Four Truths Having explained thus the contemplation of mental objects by way of the seven factors of enlightenment, the Master said, "And further," and so forth, in order to explain the meditation by way of the Four Truths. Idam dukkhanti yathabhutam Pajanati = "A bhikkhu understands: 'this is suffering,' according to reality." He puts aside craving, and understands all things of the three planes of becoming as suffering, according to nature. He understands according to nature the previous craving that produces and makes to arise that very suffering. He understands the non-occurrence of both suffering and its origin, according to nature, as Nibbana. He understands, according to nature, the Noble Path which penetrates suffering, abandons origination, and realizes cessation. The rest of the explanation of the Noble Truths is in the Path of Purity [Visuddhi Magga]. Iti ajjhattam = "Thus, internally." He lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, having laid hold of his own four truths or the four truths of another or at one time his own four truths and at another time another's four truths. In this explanation of the truths, the origination and dissolution of the four truths should be understood according to nature by way of arising and stopping. From here on the explanation is according to the manner already stated. With this have been stated the following twenty-one subjects of meditation: Breathing, Modes of Deportments, the Method of the Thirty-two Parts of the Body, the Determination of the Four Modes of Materiality (or the Four Elements), the Nine Cemetery Contemplations, Contemplation of Feeling, Contemplation of Consciousness, the Laying Hold on the Hindrances, the Laying Hold on the Aggregates, the Laying Hold on the Sense-bases, the Laying Hold on the Enlightenment Factors, and the Laying Hold on the Truths. The Cemetery Contemplations are counted separately. The Contemplation on Breathing, the Thirty-two Parts and the Nine Cemetery Contemplations, these eleven, are subjects of meditation which produce full absorption. The Digha-bhanaka (Reciter of the Long Collection of Discourses) Maha Siva, however, says that the Nine Cemetery Contemplations are here stated by way of the contemplation of Misery. Therefore according to his view only two subjects, Breathing and the Thirty-two Parts, produce full absorption; the rest produce only partial absorption. Yo hi koci bhikkhave ime cattaro satipatthane evam bhaveyya = "O bhikkhus, if anyone develops the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner." If any bhikkhu or bhikkhuni or upasaka or upasika cultivates mindfulness from the beginning according to the method taught here. Titthantu bhikkhave = "O bhikkhus, let alone." This together with what follows, was said by way of the average person capable of being trained. But concerning the person of keen intelligence it was stated as follows: Instructed in the morning, he will attain in the evening; instructed in the evening, he will attain in the morning. The Blessed One pointed out the teaching thus: "Bhikkhus, my Dispensation leads to Deliverance in this way," closed the instruction that is crowned with Arahantship in twenty-one places and uttered the following words: "This is the only way, o bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." ---------------------------------------------------- 23071 From: Date: Sun Jun 22, 2003 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Nina, Vism XIV, 3: Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path." L: It occurred to me that perhaps "padhaana" (effort, endeavor) is a near synonym for, or linked to, "hetu" (root cause). In that case "understanding" (panna) would be distinguished by its effect. N: It is viriya cetasika, and this is different according as it arises with different cittas. In this case viriya and panna condition one another by way of conascent condition and other conditions. ----------- L: So padhaana _is_ right effort as "endeavour". If there is no right effort, there is no panna. Correct? What if there is ordinary consciousness of impermanence that later, by being remembered, conditions the arising of right effort. Does that later right effort 'make' the original ordinary consciousness panna, or is the remembered conscousness of impermanence panna, or is all consciousness, sooner or later, panna? Larry 23072 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 22, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Perfections, Ch 10, loving-kindness, no 5 Perfections, Ch 10, loving-kindness, no 5 We read in the ³Basket of Conduct² that the citta of the Great Being, the Bodhisatta, could without difficulty become established in peacefulness, because he could quickly extend loving-kindness even towards his enemies. Someone may at times be irritated about others, he may believe that particular persons obstruct his own welfare in various ways. However, if someone accumulates kusala and he has the determination to eradicate defilements, his citta will without difficulty become established in peacefulness. He will quickly be able to extend mettå even to his enemies. If we become angry with someone, we should know that anger arises only for a short moment and then falls away already, and that there can be mettå instead. When we have accumulated the perfections we can become like the Bodhisatta who could without difficulty be established in mettå and extend it quickly towards his enemies. We should verify for ourselves whether we are angry with someone else for a long time or not. If we can have mettå instead, it shows that we have accumulated the inclination to eradicate defilements. Loving-kindness, mettå, is one of the divine abidings, brahmavihåras. There are four of them: loving-kindness, mettå, compassion, karunå, sympathetic joy, muditå and equanimity, upekkhå. Mettå is adosa cetasika, the reality of non-hate or non-aversion. Compassion is karunå cetasika, which arises when one assists someone else so that he is free from suffering and trouble. Sympathetic joy is muditå cetasika, which arises when one rejoices in someone else¹s happiness. Equanimity, upekkhå, is tatramajjhattatå cetasika, evenmindedness which is the reality without attachment or aversion. It arises when one understands that there is from birth to death no being, no person, no self. When mettå, adosa cetasika, arises one is at that moment free from hate or aversion. When karunå cetasika arises, one is concerned about someone who suffers and wants to assist him. When someone else is happy because of gain, honour or praise, and one also rejoices in his happiness, there is muditå cetasika. When one has no lobha or dosa and when one is evenminded and impartial towards all beings, there is tatramajjhattatå cetasika, which is the brahmavihåra of upekkhå, equanimity. If someone wants to extend mettå towards a person who conducts himself in an unpleasant and irritating way, he should, to begin with, develop adosa cetasika, the reality that is free from anger. 23073 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jun 22, 2003 10:03pm Subject: Present moment --- > A discussion with a friend Dear RobertK, you have > family and teach classes. Are there any conflicts? How long can you > go on like this? _________ These are great questions. I think when there is a (belief in) 'self' then conflicts are inevitable. Then there is always 'me' trying to do or get something. I used to have the idea: first get the mind nice and still and then ponder at leisure the changing patterns. However, this is caught up in a subtle idea that `mind' somehow exists. There is no Mind but there are only rapidly changing phenomena. It is natural that mental states are involved in concepts but in between there can be, sometimes, little flashes of insight that know the characteristic of paramattha dhamma (any of the khandhas such as seeing or sound or feeling, or hardness, or greed). Ronald Graham, a well-known mathematician said "You can do mathematics anywhere. I once had a flash of insight into a problem in the middle of a back somersault with a triple twist on my trampoline ( in the "The man who loved only numbers"). Of course panna (wisdom ) of vipassana is much faster than that as it is seeing dhammas directly (not conceptualizing about them). Too, the thinking process has to be known, and it can't be known if one always turns away from it to tries to manufacture something else that one thinks is better or purer. If there are conflicts then this shows that one is trying to force, and not accepting the present moment as it is. The only way out is to insight such moments and see what is really present - Which one will see is some dhamma conditioned by tanha (desire) for a result. That tanha is part of dependent origination and no matter how much it feels like wholesome effort will actually hinder insight - unless it is seen as it is. Also I must confess that I err on the lazy side and take things pretty easy. When I hear people ask A. Sujin "How do I practice?" her reply is very careful. In some ways it can't really be answered because such a question shows there is already a hidden idea of self who can do something. There are dhammas arising even while such questions are been asked and if there is enough understanding then sati can arise to be aware of the moment. It is always about this moment - according to A. Sujin. But that sort of answer doesn't satisfy tanha (desire) which always wants results now. RobertK 23074 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jun 22, 2003 10:06pm Subject: Present moment2 --- > Dear Group, more discussion: What practical method, step by step, do you need to follow in order > to catch those 'little flashes of insight' and to lengthen their > duration enough in order for 'wisdom and sati' to take control, such > that Tanha would not have a chance to arise? > > I have read a lot about 'bare attention', 'direct seeing without > thinking', 'experiencing ultimate realities without thinking and/or > conceptualizing'. But there is a big gap between the > concepts/lectures and the actual application. ___________ When you are reading this reply now what is present? What realities? there is seeing and colour- can there be some direct study of these dhammas right now? There is also feeling - is it MY feeling or is there a little understanding that begins to understand it is just a conditioned phenomena with no owner. Or is there a little confusion about what was said? If so what is the actual nature of confusion? A. Sujin stresses on parami (perfections). She says they are the supports that assist wisdom do its job. For example if we are still stingy with regard to material things then how could we come to the stage of letting go of the idea of self completely. In the Maha-samaya sutta of the Digha nikaya it says "Those who have gone to the Buddha for refuge Will not go to the plane of woe. On discarding the human body,They will fill the hosts of the devas."" Perhaps for many buddhist, like it or not, the next life may be in the deva world where some of the parami cannot be perfected (because no obstacles). And we should take this seriously. Whatever trials and tribulations come in life they should be warmly regarded as a great chance to develop patience (khanti) parami or whatever other parami is suitable. ------------------------------------------- > > BTW Have you known of any real person who's achieved Arahat-magga > this way? ? ___________________ Actually I stopped wondering like this years ago because I think it is always motivated by tanha. What we can know about a teacher - beyond speculation- is whether they point to the present moment in a way that helps us to begin to insight such moments. The rest is wishful thinking. The Anguttara nikaya commentary tells the story of one teacher, after the Buddhas time, who had many pupils all of whom attained arahatship. But he himself was still a wordling - not even a sotapanna. However, he understood the tipitaka very, very well; knew the letter and the meaning and so was a great teacher (Angutara nikaya Ekakanipata pali (the book of the ones) Nivaranapphahana-vagga (abandoning of hindrances) 6th sutta; about the Thera Gamantapabbharavasi mahasivatthera ). RobertK --- End forwarded message --- 23075 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jun 22, 2003 10:09pm Subject: Present moment3 More discussion: > Dear robertk, The present state is moving/changing continuously; it seems like > a 'flow' of events. Thoughts arise and disappear, feeling changes in > kind and location-- sometimes in the body, some other time it is > mental. As this complex process of events flow through time, life is > diminishes. Everything seems to be significant only at the 'present > moment'-- and yet, this present moment is empty, void, meaningless. > How sad! ________ Not sad! It only might seem that way when we think about the present moment- Insighting the present moment without thinking about it is a refuge that can't be taken by anyone. In the samyutta Nikaya (III, Khandha-vagga, The First Fifty, Ch 5, On Being an Island to oneself 2: "Monks, be islands to yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other. Those who are islands to themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things: "What is the source of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair? How do they arise?" Here, monks the uninstructed worldling... regards the body as self, the self as having body, body as being in the self, or the self as being in the body. Change occurs in this man's body, and it becomes different. On account of this change and difference, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair arise.""" (repeats with feelings, perceptions, mental formations, consciousness.) ""BUT seeing the body's impermanence, its changeability, its waning, its ceasing, he says, "formerly as well as now, all bodies were impermanent and unsatisfacory, and subject to change." Thus, seeing this as it really is, with perfect insight, he abandons all sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not worried at their abandonment, but unworried lives at ease, and thus living at ease he is said to be "assuredly delivered." """ It is a long process and can't really be hurried but has much comfort all the way. _________________________________ > , do you mean to say that my every living moment should be devoted > to developing parami/kusala dhamma and that's all what matters? I > guess you're right; yet my 'tanha' makes me feel unsatisfied to some > degree. ____________ Too idealistic, I think, to say every living moment should be devoted to kusala. Dhammas arise by conditions: akusala such as desire and aversion and ignorance have been accumalted (ayuhana) for countless lives and so they must arise- there is no self who can stop them. Learning about the teachings means that there will be gradually less tendency to misinterpret them as "MY akusala" - then they can be known as they are. Understanding has its own timeframe in which to develop, and patience is the first parami.If we try to force understanding or kusala this is because of an idea of a subtle self who can control. RobertK --- End forwarded message --- 23076 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 23, 2003 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, [...] (Jaataka) Hi Jim (Nina, RobK & All), Thx for your kind comments. --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > Jim wrote: "I have come across instances of the term 'buddhavacana' > > being defined as the Tipitaka combined with the commentaries > > (saa.t.thakatha.m). > > I think I have probably erred on this point. I was relying on memory > alone when I wrote that and when I saw you quoting me just now I > thought I'd better start looking for some commentarial references to > back it up. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find anything and > have some doubt that I will. So I'd advise you to disregard that point > of mine for now. Mind you, I don't think it unreasonable to consider > the commentaries to belong to the buddhavacana if you interpret the > 'buddha-' part in a wider sense to include the arahants (many of whom > were responsible for the a.t.thakathas in the first 500 years) and the > fact that it contains a good deal spoken by the Buddha himself eg. the > Jataka stories. ...... Actually, I meant to ask you if you had any references in mind, but didn’t wish to trouble you too much;-) I agreed with the point (which is why I included it of course;-)). I also meant to add some textual support I had in mind for your comments in the summary, but was very conscious that the summary was getting quite long. Originally I put a footnote to Lance's last comments too, but deleted this for the same reason. In the series I wrote before from the Bahiranidana I quoted passages like the ones in the Atthasaalini (The Expositor, Introductory Discourse, pp6 onwards) which refer to the Kathaavatthu, expounded by Tissa, as being ‘buddhavacana’. Also, suttas given by Mahakaccana and others being ‘buddhavacana’ after the Buddha made it clear he gave his approval for this. Then with the entire Abhidhamma, even though expounded by Sariputta. (Nina has also quoted some of the passages recently I think). The same would therefore also apply, imho, to texts such as the Petakopadesa and Nettippakarana attributed to Maha Kaccana and said to be approved by the Buddha. In the intro to The Guide (Netti), p xi, Dhammapala’s comy is quoted with criterion with regard to a text, ‘approved by the Buddha’ - “any text not in contradiction (when examined) under the four Principal appeals to authority is the criterion. And the “Guide-Treatise” has, like the Petakopadesa, come down (to us) by way of the unimpeachable succession of teachers...” Other interesting comments follow. Of course, everything is up for debate and I know I’m risking opening a Pandora’s box here as I’m trying to tidy up any ends before my trip. I know RobertK has also read the Jatakas very thoroughly and has a lot of confidence in their value and authenticity. I think he’s written before about them before both here and elsewhere and may like to add more. Thanks again for your help, Jim. If you come across other references that you may have had in mind, I’d be interested to hear. Nina, thank you also for your feedback. Metta, Sarah ====== 23077 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:19am Subject: about The Buddha Dear Group, It has been said that the Buddha took four incalculably long periods of time plus one hundred thousand aeons to develop the wisdom to become a Buddha. If one aeon is billions of years, then an unimaginable length of time passed after He made the aspiration to become a Samma Sambuddha, until the target was achieved. One wonders how He managed to keep on track. [One also wonders how ordinary beings are ever going to find liberation, if this Great Being took so long.] Was there rememberance in each re-becoming, even from the beginning, of past lives and of having made the aspiration? Did he ever go astray? I often think it would be a great help if each could remember the useless, damaging, unprofitable lives that had been lived previously ... surely that would be the best teaching tool. I know this isn't how things are, or how things can ever be - just papanca. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23078 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jun 23, 2003 2:14am Subject: Re: about The Buddha Hi Christine, These are very good questions. I will offer my perspective. The Lord Buddha didn't have recollection of his manifold past lives until right before his final enlightenment. It wasn't like he could see the whole trail of his lives, strung out behind him like a lengthy lesson, and he could learn from each of them as he progressed. It was learning from each of life`s lessons as they arose. It also isn't necessary for each of us to have a remembrance of our many past lives in order to proceed. The Law of Karma is such that if a person doesn't learn from one lesson, that lesson is going to be repeated again and again until the necessary lesson is learned. Allow me to quote a relevant text: Every experience has something to teach us, something to make us learn. Whenever we fail to learn, the same experience is given to us again and again, till we learn the lesson from it. This scientific kind of a process is what is known as the Law of Karma. « Swami Shantanand Sarawathi » Karma, like evolution, is the natural order of the universe. When lessons aren't learned, history is going to repeat itself over and over again, on an individual, group, national, and world level. When the lesson is learned, there is a natural evolving, physical and spiritual. Evolution and karma doesn't always, naturally lead to perfection, more often it leads to extinction. Each of the manifold past lives of the Buddha weren't progressive, there were numerous cul- de-sacs and dead-ends along the way which required a different approach, a different evolution. It was through numerous right actions and right efforts that eventually the Buddha grew to have right view. It shouldn't take us as long as it took him because he taught the correct path to follow. Metta, James 23079 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:54am Subject: Re: about The Buddha Dear Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: Dear Group, It has been said that the Buddha took four incalculably long periods of time plus one hundred thousand aeons to develop the wisdom to become a Buddha. If one aeon is billions of years, then an unimaginable length of time passed after He made the aspiration to become a Samma Sambuddha, until the target was achieved. One wonders how He managed to keep on track. [One also wonders how ordinary beings are ever going to find liberation, if this Great Being took so long.] Was there rememberance in each re-becoming, even from the beginning, of past lives and of having made the aspiration? Did he ever go astray? I often think it would be a great help if each could remember the useless, damaging, unprofitable lives that had been lived previously ... surely that would be the best teaching tool. I know this isn't how things are, or how things can ever be - just papanca. metta and peace, Christine KKT: Have you ever considered this question: << Who >> or << What >> is that << entity >> that passed through the series of << past >> lives of the Buddha? Another question: Is the actual Dalai Lama, the 14th, the same or different from the 13th Dalai Lama? Peace, KKT 23080 From: Date: Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] about The Buddha Hi, Christine - In a message dated 6/23/2003 3:19:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear Group, > > It has been said that the Buddha took four incalculably long periods > of time plus one hundred thousand aeons to develop the wisdom to > become a Buddha. If one aeon is billions of years, then an > unimaginable length of time passed after He made the aspiration to > become a Samma Sambuddha, until the target was achieved. One > wonders how He managed to keep on track. [One also wonders how > ordinary beings are ever going to find liberation, if this > Great > Being took so long.] ============================ With regard to the last issue you raise: It wasn't that he was a great being who, despite being so great, took extraordinarily long (to reach final enlightenment), but that he *became* such a great being partly due to how long he took. His vow was not "just" to reach complete enlightenment, but to become a Buddha, which requires much more effort, much greater achievement, and for a radically longer period of preparation. Of course, if your intention is to be a future Buddha, then you do, indeed, have your work cut out for you!;-) With metta, Howard 23081 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] about The Buddha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: His vow was not "just" to reach complete enlightenment, but to become a Buddha, which requires much more effort, much greater achievement, and for a radically longer period of preparation. Of course, if your intention is to be a future Buddha, then you do, indeed, have your work cut out for you!;-) > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, I have read this before but I have never come across a sutta reference about the 'bundled continuum' that was Gotama having made a vow in a past life to become a Buddha in some future existence eons away. Is there a sutta reference to this? Also, if this is true, then that 'bundled continuum' must have had some knowledge of Arahants, Buddhas, and Silent Buddhas to have made such a vow...and he/she couldn't have made that vow on Earth because humans haven't been around for millions of eons. On what planet or world did he make that vow? Just wondering if you know because you seem very knowledgeable about this vow. Metta, James 23082 From: Date: Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] about The Buddha Hi, James - In a message dated 6/23/2003 10:20:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > His vow was not "just" to reach complete enlightenment, but to > become a Buddha, which requires much more effort, much greater > achievement, and for a radically longer period of preparation. Of > course, if your intention is to be a future Buddha, then you do, > indeed, have your work cut out for you!;-) > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > Hi Howard, > > I have read this before but I have never come across a sutta > reference about the 'bundled continuum' that was Gotama having made a > vow in a past life to become a Buddha in some future existence eons > away. Is there a sutta reference to this? Also, if this is true, > then that 'bundled continuum' must have had some knowledge of > Arahants, Buddhas, and Silent Buddhas to have made such a vow...and > he/she couldn't have made that vow on Earth because humans haven't > been around for millions of eons. On what planet or world did he > make that vow? Just wondering if you know because you seem > very > knowledgeable about this vow. > > Metta, James ================================ I was a fly on the wall of his kuti when he made that vow, as a matter of fact! ;-) I have a book at home (I'm in the Dallas area at the moment, and I forget the title) which discusses the lives of the Buddha and his main disciples. I think that is where I read about this. Supposedly the Buddha made the bodhisatta vow when he was a disciple of an earlier Buddha, but not the one right before Gotama. Given the time scale involved, if we are to believe this, then I would suppose we would have to believe that it occurred on another planet in another galaxy, probably during an earlier kappa. With metta, Howard 23083 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jun 23, 2003 9:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] about The Buddha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ================================ > I was a fly on the wall of his kuti when he made that vow, as a matter of fact! ;-) James: Hmmm...not likely to get swatted there, huh? Always taking the safe route! ;-) > I have a book at home (I'm in the Dallas area at the moment, and I forget the title) which discusses the lives of the Buddha and his main disciples. I think that is where I read about this. Supposedly the Buddha made the bodhisatta vow when he was a disciple of an earlier Buddha, but not the one right before Gotama. > Given the time scale involved, if we are to believe this, then I would suppose we would have to believe that it occurred on another planet in another galaxy, probably during an earlier kappa. James: I have read such things in books also but they never seem to quote sutta references. I would like to know where this information came from, if you wouldn't mind looking on your return home I would appreciate it. > > With metta, > Howard Metta, James 23084 From: Date: Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] about The Buddha Hi, James - In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:29:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > James: I have read such things in books also but they never seem to > quote sutta references. I would like to know where this information > came from, if you wouldn't mind looking on your return home > I would > appreciate it. > ======================= Sure. Will do. I suppose one source might be the Jataka Tales, if you give them any credence. Also, I saw somewhere some references to suttas in the M. Nikaya (maybe M 4). I would suspect that the D. Nikaya would be a likely source, if there are any suttas anywhere pertaining to this. With metta, Howard 23085 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jun 23, 2003 2:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] about The Buddha Hi James, KKT, Howard and all, James: I appreciate your thoughts on this topic. I am not familiar with the 'learning of lessons' idea - my understanding of kamma is that it is action (caused by craving) by thought word or deed, and that there are inescapable consequences of this action (good or bad) - vipaka. Vipaka comes in such varied and unpredictable forms - I'm not sure how one could tell what lesson was being taught {and 'who' by}. For instance, when one's car is damaged by vandals in a public carpark - what does one learn about past actions from that? I think that there is no one-on-one result or trackable history of kamma past or future - just an inevitable process, that may be ameliorated but hardly ever escaped. KKT: I don't think there is a 'who', but it seems from the Teachings, and the explanations I have heard from good friends in the Dhamma [if I am not misunderstanding], that what passes from life to life is just arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena - no ongoing personality, soul or personal identity. While there is craving which is the origin of kamma (good and bad actions of word, thought and deed), re-becoming will be automatic and unavoidable. I am learning on this list that *my* conventional death is no different than *my* death from instant to instant - with its seeming continuity of personality. Perhaps one difference between moment to moment death in this life, and final physical death and rebirth in the next is the obliteration from memory of personal history and identity. Sometimes I almost feel a happiness creeping in at this idea. My original question was about whether the Buddha consciously remembered his past lives. Otherwise, I wonder if the aspiration that was made all those aeons ago caused such a powerful imprint on citta that there was an irresistible compulsion to continue. [As to your question, KKT,about the rebirth of the Dalai Lama/s, I have no comment to make - My understanding of Tibetan teachings is too limited - I understand that they accept that it is possible for humans to search for and authenticate the reappearance of a particular stream of cittas (only ever re-appearing in human form) within a short period after the death of a leader of a particular lineage.] Howard: Thanks Howard - so an 'ordinary' attainment of enlightenment compared to what the Buddha did, is like comparing pre-school to a PhD. Regarding past Buddhas: I think DN14 The Great Discourse on the Lineage speaks of past seven Buddhas as exemplified by Vipassi - a note states a fortunate aeon is one in which one or more Buddhas are born: the present aeon is one of five Buddhas, four of whom have already appeared. Regarding past lives of the Buddha Gotama: I also have an old note (can't attribute it, sorry) saying that 'in the Ghatikara Sutta the Buddha relates to the Venerable Ananda that he was born as Jotipala, in the time of the Buddha Kassapa, his immediate predecessor. The Anathapindikovada Sutta describes a nocturnal visit of Anathapindika to the Buddha, immediately after his rebirth as a Deva. In the Anguttara Nikaya, the Buddha alludes to a past birth as Pacetana the wheelwright.' metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:29:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > James: I have read such things in books also but they never seem to > > quote sutta references. I would like to know where this information > > came from, if you wouldn't mind looking on your return home > > I would > > appreciate it. > > > ======================= > Sure. Will do. > I suppose one source might be the Jataka Tales, if you give them any credence. Also, I saw somewhere some references to suttas in the M. Nikaya (maybe M 4). I would suspect that the D. Nikaya would be a likely source, if there are any suttas anywhere pertaining to this. > > With metta, > Howard 23086 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jun 23, 2003 3:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] about The Buddha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi James, KKT, Howard and all, > > James: I appreciate your thoughts on this topic. I am not familiar > with the 'learning of lessons' idea - my understanding of kamma is > that it is action (caused by craving) by thought word or deed, and > that there are inescapable consequences of this action (good or bad) - > vipaka. Vipaka comes in such varied and unpredictable forms - I'm > not sure how one could tell what lesson was being taught {and 'who' > by}. For instance, when one's car is damaged by vandals in a public > carpark - what does one learn about past actions from that? I think > that there is no one-on-one result or trackable history of kamma past > or future - just an inevitable process, that may be ameliorated but > hardly ever escaped. Hi Christine, Karma isn't random, therein lies whatever lesson to be learned. Your description is atomistic, while mine is holistic, but they are both descriptions for the same thing. I pray that your car is never vandalized. Metta, James 23087 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 23, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Dear Larry, op 23-06-2003 02:41 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > L: So padhaana _is_ right effort as "endeavour". If there is no right > effort, there is no panna. Correct? N: When there is right view there is also at the same time, by conditions, right effort. L:What if there is ordinary > consciousness of impermanence that later, by being remembered, > conditions the arising of right effort. Does that later right effort > 'make' the original ordinary consciousness panna, or is the remembered > conscousness of impermanence panna, or is all consciousness, sooner or > later, panna? N: What do you mean by ordinary consciousness, I think you use this word for awareness?And ordinary for: not lokuttara? do you mean: first intellectual understanding of impermanence? Can you rephrase your question? Nina. 23088 From: Date: Mon Jun 23, 2003 10:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Nina, You wrote: What do you mean by ordinary consciousness, I think you use this word for awareness?And ordinary for: not lokuttara? do you mean: first intellectual understanding of impermanence? Can you rephrase your question? L: I'm trying to understand the difference between consciousness and understanding as explained in Vism. XIV 3. The only difference in that short explanation is "endeavour". The way I see it, both the consciousness of impermanence and the understanding of impermanence would be conceptual because impermanence is a concept. Maybe this one word "endeavour" is meant to encompass all we have learned about "sampajanna" in the Satipatthana Sutta Commentary? Perhaps we could say "understanding" means "ultimate analysis", distinguishing between ultimate realities and concepts. Exactly how this understanding brings about a life changing (change of lineage) event is the subject of this entire section of the Visuddhimagga. More generally, "understanding" includes many details while "consciousness", in this sense, would have a narrower vision. I don't understand why sanna (perception) can't perceive impermanence. Larry Vism XIV 3: In what sense is it understanding? It is understanding (pa~n~naa) in the sense of act of understanding. What is this act of understanding? It is knowing in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving and cognizing. For though the state of knowing is equally present in perception (sa~n~naa), in consciousness (vi~n~na.na), and in understanding (pa~n~naa), nevertheless perception is only the mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or 'yellow'; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristics as impermanent, painful, and not-self. Consciousness knows the object as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of its characteristics and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. 23089 From: Date: Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:10pm Subject: subject/object Hi Group, Here's an interesting observation by John Levy (not a buddhist): When I am consciousness of an object, that is, of a notion or a percept, that object alone is present. When I am consciousness of my perceiving, what alone presents itself to consciousness is the notion that I perceive the object: and therefore the notion of my being the perceiver also constitutes an object of consciousness. From this, a most important fact emerges: the so-called subject who thinks, and its apparent object, have no immediate relation. ...the notion, I am reading, does not occur while we are thus absorbed [in reading a book]: it occurs only when our attention wavers....a little reflection will show that even when we are not thus absorbed for any appreciable lapse of time, the subject who afterwards lays claim to the action was not present to consciousness when the action was taking place. The idea of our being the agent occurs to us as a separate thought, which is to say that it forms an entirely fresh object of consciousness. And since, at the time of the occurrence, we were present as neither the thinker, the agent, the percipient, nor the enjoyer, no subsequent claim on our part could alter the position.... If the notions of subject and object are both separate objects of consciousness, neither term has any real significance. An object, in the absence of a subject, cannot be what is normally called an object; and the subject, in the absence of an object, cannot be what is normally called the subject. It is in memory that the two notions seem to combine to form an entirely new notion: 'I am the perceiver or thinker.' Larry 23090 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] about The Buddha Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: >> James: I have read such things in books also but they never seem to > quote sutta references. I would like to know where this information > came from, if you wouldn't mind looking on your return home I would > appreciate it. ..... I’m a bit rushed for time, so apologies for just giving links. #Past posts which should cover the question: ***** Bodhisatta 18577, 22341, 22428, 22462 ***** # The texts which I know of which give detailed information are: 1. The Buddhavamsa (Chronicle of Buddhas), the 14th book of the Khuddaka-nikaya, transl by I.B.Horner, PTS 2. The Madhuratthavilaasinii (Clarifier of Sweet Meaning), Comy to the Buddhavamsa, also transl by I.B.Horner, PTS 3. Introduction to the Jatakas which I was referring to recently. Transl by C.Rhys Davids, Srishti pub. Much of it and much more can be found in an excellent book- 4. Buddhism in Translations by Henry Clarke Warren. Our copy is pub by Harvard Uni press. conveniently, this book is on line and you’ll find many of the answers under the first section ‘the story of Sumedha’ (When he was Sumedha, he first made his resolve.) http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/index.htm Hope this helps and good to see your comments, James. Metta, Sarah ===== 23091 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] about The Buddha Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > >I often think it would be a > great help if each could remember the useless, damaging, unprofitable > lives that had been lived previously ... surely that would be the > best teaching tool. I know this isn't how things are, or how things > can ever be - just papanca. ..... Would it be so easy . Often I remember ‘useless, damaging, unprofitable’ actions from years ago, weeks ago or even yesterday, but I’m not sure that mere thinking or recalling does the trick. For example, on Sunday I really ate too much, overcome by lobha, and felt uncomfortable for the rest of the day. How many times has this happened just in this lifetime and will it be the last? Similarly, we may see others making mistakes, such as my students or your children, but can we prevent it? I’m thinking of your discussion with RobK about Pesa (sp?). Accumulations (Ken H’s favourite word;-)) being what they are, who can stop, change or think their way out? That’s why it takes direct understanding and other path factors to eliminate kilesa (defilements), rather than a course of action or particular set of memories, I think. Of course, reflections are an important support, IF they’re wise ones. Otherwise, it’s just more thinking and papanca, as you say...... Metta, Sarah p.s thx for the helpful lists of links which I’m sure we can recycle many times;-) All- I look forward to reading all the discussions while we're away (almost 3 wks) but I don't expect to have computer access (no internet cafes in the Swiss mountains), so will appreciate any support any of the regulars can give to newcomers, self reminders to trim etc. Jon (without my phobia of noisy bar or airport computers) will be helping Kom to monitor things as usual and hopefully printing out the messages for me to read. AND Hong Kong and China are now officially SARS free, so we should have no airport hassles:-) :-) ====================== 23092 From: Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 6:21am Subject: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi, Larry (and Nina, and all) - In a message dated 6/24/2003 12:06:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > L: I'm trying to understand the difference between consciousness and > understanding as explained in Vism. XIV 3. The only difference in that > short explanation is "endeavour". The way I see it, both the > consciousness of impermanence and the understanding of > impermanence > would be conceptual because impermanence is a concept. =========================== Larry, I'm zero-ing in on one small part of your post that struck me as very important. You wrote that impermance is a concept. I believe this is correct. Yet impermanence is also a characteristic of every dhamma there is except nibbana. Now impermanence, itself, cannot be a dhamma, for it is false (or meaningless) to speak of impermanence as being impermanent. We find ourselves to be in a strange predicament: Anicca, an observable, essential characteristic of all dhammas other than nibbana, is, in fact, concept-only, and thus actually only a nonexistent "something" concocted by the mind. It seems that Abhidhamma leaves many things, critical things, out of its ontology. In Abhidhamma, there are only the (listed) paramattha dhammas. They include rupic and namic presences, but, with the exception of nibbana, no absences. And also no "facts" are included as existents. Anicca is the "fact" that no conditioned dhamma remains. Or we can say that it is a universal characteristic of conditioned dhammas. Now there is something - a characteristic - a property possessed by a dhamma. Perhaps that is something more than concept-only. Yet, where exactly do characteristics fit into the Abhidhammic scheme? What exactly *is* a characteristic? Much of what we call "characteristic" is nothing more than ordinary rupa or cetasika. Hardness is a characteristic (of conventional physical objects), restlessness is a characteristic of mind-moments. Other "characteristics," however, don't seem to fit in. Ironically, the most important characteristics for Buddhists, namely the tilakkhana, are among those that do not fit in. Why, this is all enough to make one go running to Nagarjuna asking for help! ;-)) So ... answers anyone? With metta, Howard 23093 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Dear Larry, I thought it might help if I add what the .tiikaa on Vism XIV.3 has to say about "endeavouring". I have interspersed the Pali with a rough translation within your quote. > Vism XIV 3: In what sense is it understanding? It is understanding > (pa~n~naa) in the sense of act of understanding. What is this act of > understanding? It is knowing in a particular mode separate from the > modes of perceiving and cognizing. For though the state of knowing is > equally present in perception (sa~n~naa), in consciousness (vi~n~na.na), > and in understanding (pa~n~naa), nevertheless perception is only the > mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or 'yellow'; it cannot > bring about the penetration of its characteristics as impermanent, > painful, and not-self. Consciousness knows the object as blue or yellow, > and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it > cannot bring about, by endeavouring [ussakkitvaa], [.tiikaa: ussakkitvaa ti udayabbaya~naa.napa.tipaa.tiyaa aayuuhitvaa. "by endeavouring" -- by accumulating in succession (or gradually?) the knowledge of rise and fall. Note: aayuuhitvaa is a synonym for ussakitvaa and could also have the meanings given in PED under aayuuhati (striving, endeavouring; cultivating, etc.)] > the manifestation of the > [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already > stated, it brings about the penetration of its characteristics and it > brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. [.tiikaa: attano pana ana~n~nasaadhaara.nena aanubhaavena ussakkitvaa maggapaatubhaava.m paapetu.m. moreover, by endeavouring through its own power not shared by the others, it (is able to) bring about the manifestation of the path.] Best wishes, Jim 23094 From: Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] subject/object Hi, Larry - In a message dated 6/24/2003 1:10:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Group, > > Here's an interesting observation by John Levy (not a buddhist): > > When I am consciousness of an object, that is, of a notion or a percept, > that object alone is present. When I am consciousness of my perceiving, > what alone presents itself to consciousness is the notion that I > perceive the object: and therefore the notion of my being the perceiver > also constitutes an object of consciousness. From this, a most important > fact emerges: the so-called subject who thinks, and its apparent object, > have no immediate relation. > > ...the notion, I am reading, does not occur while we are thus absorbed > [in reading a book]: it occurs only when our attention wavers....a > little reflection will show that even when we are not thus absorbed for > any appreciable lapse of time, the subject who afterwards lays claim to > the action was not present to consciousness when the action was taking > place. The idea of our being the agent occurs to us as a separate > thought, which is to say that it forms an entirely fresh object of > consciousness. And since, at the time of the occurrence, we were present > as neither the thinker, the agent, the percipient, nor the enjoyer, no > subsequent claim on our part could alter the position.... > > If the notions of subject and object are both separate objects of > consciousness, neither term has any real significance. An object, in the > absence of a subject, cannot be what is normally called an object; and > the subject, in the absence of an object, cannot be what is normally > called the subject. It is in memory that the two notions seem to combine > to form an entirely new notion: 'I am the perceiver or > thinker.' quote> > > Larry =============================== I think that your analysis, with the "self" terminology removed, is basically correct. As I see it the situation is as follows: When there is discernment of an object, all that is present to consciousness, all that is discerned, all that "appears," is only that object. Moments afterwards, there is discerned a fresh memory of that discernment-event, and this is followed by mindstates that separate out the objective pole of that remembered event and the subjective pole, and states in which there is the discursive realization that that event consisted of those two aspects, the subjective and the objective. But at the time the event actually occurred, the only awareness was the awareness of the object. (That's why it is called the object.) Consciousness is not reflexive at a single point in time. The diamond cannot cut itself. In fact, the subjective pole of a discernment event is only discovered subsequently, and, when that occurs, it appears as the objective pole of a subsequent discermment-event. However, I don't agree with you when you conclude "From this, a most important fact emerges: the so-called subject who thinks, and its apparent object, have no immediate relation." I believe that they definitely *do*, but that relation is only *discoverable* subsequently. (Almost immediately, yet still not simulaneously.) With metta, Howard 23095 From: Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 7:29am Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi again, Larry (and all) - Sometimes, and this is one of those times, I think that we give too little credit to concepts. When do we really come to "directly" see impermanence? I think this happens when the mind is powerfuly attentive, concentrated, and mindful: An object is discerned, perhaps through a number of mind-moments, then it is gone, and then there is the noticing, through recollection (and thought), that it just had been present, but now is gone - and so, we "see" that it has ceased. This is all done wordlessly, but not without mentality. (It may then be followed by discursive summation.) If we did not have this conceptuality, this clear comprehension which involves mind, and relates several past events, we would be oblivious to impermanence. So, perhaps we shouldn't be too quick to give short shrift to the conceptual faculty. With metta, Howard 23096 From: christhedis Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > I'm sure we can all relate to these patterns to greater or lesser extents. > I think that sometimes we have an idea that `we' should be a certain way, > eg more equanimous, or that our behaviour patterns should be different and > improved from usual. However, wishing they are other than they are at this > time will not help us to develop any detachment or acceptance of what is > conditioned already. We think the answer is to follow a course of action > or to find the right recipe to follow in steps, but these courses of > action consist of many different phenomena and it is the bhavana (mental > development) --and in particular the understanding of these phenomena -- > which will help. While we cling to ourselves and to ways of life or > results we think should be in place, the result is likely to be more > rather than less anxiety and disturbance I think. > > As I mentioned at the start, much of the insight which seems apparent may > just be thinking and it helps a lot to be honest enough to see what > beginners we are. This way there won't be the high expectations that life, > with its ups and downs, will be significantly different from usual. The > attachment to particular results can be a real impediment, I think. In > your first question to the list, you asked about being `equanimous in all > situations' and transcending `all worldly attachments'. I think it's > impossible and useless to try and train ourselves like this. It's bound to > be an unnatural imitation of the arahants rather than an understanding and > acceptance of the present reality and our tendencies and inclinations. > > In other words, we have to start at the beginning at the present moment. > So please don't be concerned about problems `practising Buddhism'. Any > practice should make life easier not harder. Trying to be equanimous or to > `extinguish desires' is bound to make life harder and bound to be > motivated by an idea that a `self' can do this. > > I'm not sure if any of these comments are of any help. Please let us know > what you think and what further questions or comments you have. > > Appreciating your open sharing, > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > Hi Sarah and others, This reply really helps me a lot I think. The idea that I am making life harder by trying to 'extinguish desires' as a 'self' is something that makes a lot of sense. Sounds so obvious once you've said it, but sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees? Regarding meditation, my first training in Vipassana meditation was the 10-day course taught by Goenka. But most places I have gone to since do the walking and sitting meditation (Goenka's is only sitting). The other main difference in techniques I see is that Goenka's meditation focuses on the incoming and outgoing breath through the nose, while the alternate meditation focuses on the rising and falling of the abdomen. I was actually recommended Goenka's version as being 'more scientific'. Does anyone have any advice on which type to practise, is it bad to learn one then switch to another, or is it best just to find out which works best for oneself? Thanks again for all the replies and comments. Chris. 23097 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:22am Subject: Sabba Sutta Commentary: To Sayadaw Yanatharo, Sayadaw Dhammapiyo, Robert K, Sara Dear Sayadaw Yanatharo, Sayadaw Dhammapiyo, Robert Kirpatrick, Sarah, Jon, Nina, Mike, Jim, Christine and all How are you? The following is Sabba Sutta Commentary (the main portion) and notes on it for your perusal in view of criticisms against it by some translators and misuse by some academics. If you need further clarification of my translation or notes, please let me know. Please enjoy the post. With regards, Suan SABBASUTTAVA.N.NANAA 23. Sabbavaggassa pa.thame sabbam vo, bhikkhaveti sabbam naama catubbidham– sabbasabbam, aayatana sabbam, sakkaayasabbam, padesasabbanti. Tattha– "Na tassa addi.t.thamidha-atthi kiñci, atho aviññaatamajaanitabbam; sabbam abhiññaasi yadatthi neyyam, tathaagato tena samantacakkhuu"ti. (mahaani. 156; cuu.lani. dhotakamaa.navapucchaaniddeso 32; pa.ti. ma. 1.121)– Idam sabbasabbam naama. "Sabbam vo, bhikkhave, dese ssaami, tam su.naathaa"ti (sam. ni. 4.24) idam aayatanasabbam naama. "Sabbadhammamuulapariyaayam vo, bhikkhave, dese ssaamii"ti (ma. ni. 1.1) idam sakkaayasabbam naama. "Sabba dhammesu vaa pana pa.thamasamannaahaaro uppajjati cittam mano maanasam …pe… tajjaamanodhaatuu"ti idam padesa sabbam naama. Iti pañcaaramma.namattam padesasabbam. Tebhuumakadhammaa sakkaayasabbam. Catubhuumaka dhammaa aayatanasabbam. Yamkiñci neyyam sabbasabbam. padesasabbam sakkaayasabbam na paapu.naati, sakkaaya sabbam aayatanasabbam na paapu.naati, aayatanasabbam sabbasabbam na paapu.naati. kasmaa? sabbaññutaññaa.nassa ayam naama dhammo aaramma.nam na hotiiti natthitaaya. imasmim pana sutte aayatanasabbam adhippetam. All Sutta Commentary 23. In the phrase "Sabbam vo, Bhikkhave" in the All Suttam, in the All Group, the term "all" is fourfold in terms of comprehensive all (sabbasabbam), the all about reality venues (aayatanasabbam), the all about own individuality (sakkaayasabbam), and partial all. Of those four, the term "all" means comprehensive all in the following verse: "To that Tathaagato, there is nothing invisible in this world, As well, there is nothing unknowable and nothing incomprehensible. Whatever there is to be known, the Buddha knew all. Therefore, he is the Universal Eye." In the statement "Monks, I will teach all to you, listen to it", this all means the all about reality venues. In the statement "Monks, I will teach you the theme of the root of all things", this all means the all about own individuality. In the statement "The first perceptual taking emerges in all the (five) sense objects, which is the mind (cittam), the mind (mano), the mind (maanasam), (skip), the appropriate mental element: this is called the mental element" (Section 184, Vibha`nga Pali), this all means partial all. Here, as stated thus, the five sense objects only are partial all. Those that belong to three domains are the all about own individuality. Those that belong to the four domains are the all about reality venues. Whatever is knowable is comprehensive all. Partial all does not traverse the all about own individuality. The all about own individuality does not traverse the all about reality venues. The all about reality venues does not traverse the comprehensive all. Why? It is because there isn't such a thing that won't make a stimulus to the omniscience wisdom. In this discourse, though, the all about reality venues is required. NOTES Sabbasabbam – comprehensive all contains whatever is knowable in terms of all the realities, characteristics (lakka.naa), and designations (paññatti). Aayatanasabbam – the all about reality venues contains all the ultimate realities in terms of matter, mind, mental associates and nibbaana. Aayatanasabbam does not include characteristics and designations. Sakkaayasabbam – the all about own individuality contains all the worldly realities where transworldly realities (lokuttara dhammaa) including nibbaana are absent. Padesasabbam – partial all contains only immediate number of items according to the situation and context. For example, as in the sentence "You all three, go home!" or "All children, come here!" as when parents would call on them. Pa.thamasammaahaaro – the first perceptual taking is the oldest technical term for the phenomenon of the mind turning to one of the five physical sense stimuli. It is described in the commentaries as the function of attention at the five sense doors (pa`ncadvaaraavajjanakicca). Tebhuumakadhammaa – those that belong to the three domains, which are the sensuous domains (kaamaavacarabhuumi), the material Jhaana domains (ruupaavacarabhuumi), and the immaterial Jhaana domains (aruupavacarabhuumi). Catubhuumakadhammaa – those that belong to the four domains, which are the sensuous domains, the materal Jhaana domains, the immaterial Jhaana domains, and the transworldly domains (lokuttarabhuumi). The transworldly domains contain the four path consciousnesses (maggacittaani), the four fruit (phalacittaani), and their object that is nibbana. Paapu.naati – to traverse, as in the sentence "Partial all does not traverse the all about own individuality." The three sentences that contain the verb "paapu.naati" are better understood if we apply the concept of sets from mathematics to them. There are four sets in terms of Sabbasabba Set, Aayatana Set, Sakkaayasabba Set, and Padesasabba Set. As explained above, numerically, Sabbasabba Set contains Aayatana Set, which contains Sakkaayasabba Set, which contains Padesasabba Set. The bigger sets traverse or exhaust the smaller sets. But, a smaller set cannot cover a bigger set. Therefore, the sentence "Partial all does not traverse the all about own individuality." is true because Padesasabba Set is smaller than Sakkaayasabba Set. Similarly, Sakkaayasabba Set does not traverse Aayatanasabba Set because the former is a subset of the latter (i.e., the former is smaller then the latter) while Aayatanasabba Set does not exhaust Sabbasabba Set because the first set is a subset of the second set. The sentence "In this discourse, though, the all about reality venues is required." allows us to rewrite the phrase "mano ca dhammaa ca" in the Sabba Suttam as "manaayatanam ca dhammaayatanam ca". All we need to do now is to find out what dhammaayatanam means. Dhammaayatanam – the conceptual venues that are the objects of the consciousness venues (manaayatanam). Please keep in mind that I do not limit the use of the term "concept" to designations (paññatti). Therefore, the conceptual venues refer to reality venues. To simplify expressions, I call the five sense objects as percepts while declaring the objects or stimuli of the mental consciousness (manoviññaa.na) to be concepts. In short, I define concepts to mean realities (paramattha dhammaa) as well as designations ((paññatti). But, conceptual venue (dhammaayatanam) does not include designations ((paññatti) according to the teachings on Aayatanam (reality venues) as will be witnessed below. The conceptual venues are described as follows in Section 167, Vibha`nga Pali. 167. Tattha katamam dhammaayatanam? vedanaakkhandho, saññaakkhandho, sa`nkhaarakkhandho, yañca ruupam anidassana- appa.tigham dhammaayatanapariyaapannam, asa`nkhataa ca dhaatu. "There, what is the conceptual venue? The feeling aggregate, the memory aggregate, the activation aggregate, any invisible, intangible matter subsumable under the conceptual venue, and the unconditioned element are the conceptual venues." Translation and Notes By Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org 23098 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 10:18am Subject: Perfections, Ch 10, Loving-kindness, no 6 Perfections, Ch 10, Loving-kindness, no 6 The brahmavihåras, divine abidings, of loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity are dhammas which are faultless and superior. A person with mettå is faultless and when he extends mettå to someone else he is superior. The practice of the four brahmavihåras is the right practice towards all beings. We read in the ³Atthasåliní² (I, Part V, XIII, The Divine States, 195): ³And as Brahmå divinities live with faultless thoughts, so aspirants associated with these four states live like the Brahmås. Thus because of the meaning of Œdivine¹ and of their faultless nature, they are called ŒDivine States¹.² These four divine abidings lead to calm, to non-disturbance and they are faultless. They are the way leading to purity. There is a particular order in the cultivation of the four brahmavihåras, mettå being the first, since each of them is a supporting condition for the following brahmavihåra [2] . We read in the ³Expositor² (same section, 196) why they are without limits: ³And all of them arise in an immeasurable field, therefore are they called the ŒImmeasurables¹. For beings without limit constitute their field (object).² We should not think that we have developed mettå already sufficiently when we have slightly less anger or when we have mettå for just a few people. This is not enough. When we meet other people, we should know that we should extend to them, as the occasion demands, mettå, compassion, sympathetic joy or equanimity, and that there should be no limits to their extension. We should not restrict the extension of the brahmavihåras to only particular persons. We can verify for ourselves whether we are ready to further develop the brahmavihåras and to extend them to others all the time. If we can increasingly develop them it is the way to live like the Brahmås. . The ³Atthasåliní² (Book I, Part V, Ch XIII, Divine States, 196) uses a smimile for the four Brahmavihåras. Mettå is like a small child, compassion is like a child who is sick, sympathetic joy like a child who is becoming an adolescent and equanimity like a child who manages his own affairs. As regards loving-kindness which is like a baby, everybody wishes for his wellbeing and prosperity in growing up, but we should have loving-kindness not only for small children. Everybody is like a baby one should assist, and in this way we can feel true loving-kindness for all people. However, this is only a simile helping us to understand the characteristic of loving-kindness. Mettå is like the attitude of a mother towards her child who is still a baby and needs her loving care to grow up. Likewise should we as a loving mother support other people. Compassion is like a sick child. A mother who has a sick child should try to take care of it so that it will be cured, so that it is free from suffering and illness. When we see other people, not only children, we wish that they are free from suffering and that is compassion. We should not limit compassion to particular people, it should be unlimited. Sympathetic joy is rejoicing in someone else¹s welfare. This is compared to the joy of parents who have a child who is becoming an adolescent and wish for the child to keep on enjoying the good things of adolescence for a long time. Equanimity is like a child who can manage his own affairs so that he is no longer a burden to his parents, and his parents do not have to exert themselves with regard to each of his actions. This shows us that if one practises the brahmavihåras in the aforesaid ways, one can abandon defilements and develop the paññå which knows what is beneficial and what is disadvantageous. Footnote: 2. We read in the ³Expositor² (I, Part V, XIII, The Divine States, 196) that the person cultivating the brahmavihåras, after he has worked for the good of other beings, cultivates compassion when they are overcome by suffering. Then, after he has seen the prosperity of those who had prayed for welfare and the removal of suffering, he should practice sympathetic joy by rejoicing in their prosperity. Lastly he should practise equanimity, because there is no further work to be done (after practising the first three divine abidings) and he should proceed by way of evenmindedness and impartiality. 23099 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] about The Buddha Dear Christine and all, I appreciate the discussion on the Buddha. I add a few thoughts. op 23-06-2003 23:10 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > My original question was about whether the Buddha consciously > remembered his past lives. Otherwise, I wonder if the aspiration > that was made all those aeons ago caused such a powerful imprint on > citta that there was an irresistible compulsion to continue. N: In the Mugha Pakkha Jataka (see Perfections, on determination) he remembered a former birth in hell and therefore did not want to become a king. He pretended to be dumb, deaf, and lame. The Bodhisatta listened to former Buddhas and renewed his aspiration time and again. He renewed them while he was developing the perfections performing heroic deeds: "dearer than my eyes is omniscience" and he gave an eye away. People will object to this, but we should read it in such a way so as to receive the message. An example: I have finished the Equanimity perfection translation, and quote: Sutta reference to this: M I, 79 (sutta 12). At times I feel I am in trying circumstances, difficult to find solutions. But, all this is trivial when thinking of the Bodhisatta. This story is a powerful, impressive reminder of developing equanimity in daily life, not complaining to ourselves. If we are openminded to the lesson, we do not think of: is this reasonable or practical, is this historical or not. All such issues and arguments are not important, we can just profit from this message. The Bodhisatta stayed longer in those places where he was pestered and ridiculed a great deal, he wanted to accumulate equanimity. We should see this in the right way: it is not self-vexation. He knew what he could stand, he knew the power of accumulation. Though we do not have to follow this exactly, it can help and inspire us when we remember his example of equanimity. Ch: Thanks Howard - so an 'ordinary' attainment of enlightenment > compared to what the Buddha did, is like comparing pre-school to a > PhD. N: The Buddha had to develop the perfections for an endlessly long time to the highest degree, so as to be able to become a Samma-sambuddha. His chief disciples did not develop the perfections for the same length of time, and his other disciples developed them during a shorter time. Nina. 23100 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 2:17pm Subject: Re: Sabba Sutta Commentary: To Sayadaw Yanatharo, Sayadaw Dhammapiyo, Robert K, Sara --- Dear Suan Thank you very much. I understand it well. Someone might find "conceptual venue' as a translation of dhammayatana slightly confusing since most translators use concept for pannati, but since you carefully define the terms it is fine. Sarah is overseas so might not comment for awhile. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > >own individuality does not traverse the all about reality > venues. The all about reality venues does not traverse the > comprehensive all. Why? It is because there isn't such a thing that > won't make a stimulus to the omniscience wisdom. > > In this discourse, though, the all about reality venues is required. > 23101 From: Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 4:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Jim, Thanks a lot. This is exactly what I was looking for. I had assumed "endeavour" was a translation of "padhaana" because ~Nanamoli translates padhaana as endeavour, but padhaana didn't quite make sense in this case. The commentary sorted it out nicely. Larry Vism XIV, 3: ...Consciousness knows the object as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring [ussakkitvaa], Com: [.tiikaa: ussakkitvaa ti udayabbaya~naa.napa.tipaa.tiyaa aayuuhitvaa. Com: "by endeavouring" -- by accumulating in succession (or gradually?) the knowledge of rise and fall. Note: aayuuhitvaa is a synonym for ussakitvaa and could also have the meanings given in PED under aayuuhati (striving, endeavouring; cultivating, etc.)] Vism: the manifestation of the [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of its characteristics and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. Com: [.tiikaa: attano pana ana~n~nasaadhaara.nena aanubhaavena ussakkitvaa maggapaatubhaava.m paapetu.m. Com: moreover, by endeavouring through its own power not shared by the others, it (is able to) bring about the manifestation of the path.] 23102 From: Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 5:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] subject/object Hi Howard, I didn't write the analysis of subject and object. I just found it quoted in a book that compared various views on nonduality. What occurred to me was that the relationship "object of consciousness" isn't found in experience. In fact, relationship of any kind isn't really experienced because relationship is concept. Concepts can be true, but truth is a concept. Ugh, here we go again! Maybe the important thing is that "I" is nothing real and "want" is nothing meaningful or permanent. Larry 23103 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 5:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 --- Dear Jim and larry, I had also thought endeavour was a trans. of padhana - very interesting what the tika says. Thanks for bringing it up. robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jim, > > Thanks a lot. This is exactly what I was looking for. I had assumed > "endeavour" was a translation of "padhaana" because ~Nanamoli translates > padhaana as endeavour, but padhaana didn't quite make sense in this > case. The commentary sorted it out nicely. > > Larry > > Vism XIV, 3: ...Consciousness knows the object as blue or yellow, and it > brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring > about, by endeavouring [ussakkitvaa], > > Com: [.tiikaa: ussakkitvaa ti udayabbaya~naa.napa.tipaa.tiyaa > aayuuhitvaa. > > Com: "by endeavouring" -- by accumulating in succession (or > gradually?) the knowledge of rise and fall. Note: aayuuhitvaa is a > synonym for ussakitvaa and could also have the meanings given in PED > under aayuuhati (striving, endeavouring; cultivating, etc.)] > > Vism: the manifestation of the > [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already > stated, it brings about the penetration of its characteristics and it > brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. > > Com: [.tiikaa: attano pana ana~n~nasaadhaara.nena aanubhaavena > ussakkitvaa maggapaatubhaava.m paapetu.m. > > Com: moreover, by endeavouring through its own power not shared by the > others, it (is able to) bring about the manifestation of the path.] 23104 From: Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 5:41pm Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Howard, I agree these are all very thorny issues. Maybe we don't need to get rid of concepts. Maybe they can co-exist peacefully with realities. Or maybe concepts are not a problem because they are not real. Or....maybe something else. Larry ------------------------ Howard: Sometimes, and this is one of those times, I think that we give too little credit to concepts. When do we really come to "directly" see impermanence? I think this happens when the mind is powerfuly attentive, concentrated, and mindful: An object is discerned, perhaps through a number of mind-moments, then it is gone, and then there is the noticing, through recollection (and thought), that it just had been present, but now is gone - and so, we "see" that it has ceased. This is all done wordlessly, but not without mentality. (It may then be followed by discursive summation.) If we did not have this conceptuality, this clear comprehension which involves mind, and relates several past events, we would be oblivious to impermanence. So, perhaps we shouldn't be too quick to give short shrift to the conceptual faculty. 23105 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 9:05pm Subject: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Dear Howard, You wrote to Larry: --------------- > I'm zero-ing in on one small part of your post that struck me as very important. You wrote that impermanence is a concept. I believe this is correct. > --------------- I think you are mistaken in believing that. As a characteristic of each and every conditioned reality, anicca is not a concept at all, it is absolutely real. --------------- > Yet impermanence is also a characteristic of every dhamma there is except nibbana. > --------------- By your reasoning, this implies that dhammas are characteristically conceptual. This would be a major dilemma but they aren't and so it isn't :-) ------------ > Now impermanence, itself, cannot be a dhamma, > ------------- We are told, 'All conditioned dhammas are anicca.' I think that dhammas ARE their characteristics. I don't think it is taught that dhammas are a 'substance' separate from their characteristics. --------------- > for it is false (or meaningless) to speak of impermanence as being impermanent. > -------------- Fair enough. I don't know if it is said anywhere that characteristics have characteristics. If they have, then those characteristics must have characteristics too :-) But, in so far as each characteristic is part of a dhamma, then it must share the universal characteristics of that dhamma. (I think.) -------------- > We find ourselves to be in a strange predicament: Anicca, an observable, essential characteristic of all dhammas other than nibbana, is, in fact, concept-only, and thus actually only a nonexistent "something" concocted by the mind. It seems that Abhidhamma leaves many things, critical things, out of its ontology. > -------------- But this is only your [and possibly Larry's] reasoning. I think most of us say that anicca is real and therefore, there is no predicament at all. ----------- > In Abhidhamma, there are only the (listed) paramattha dhammas. They include rupic and namic presences, but, with the exception of nibbana, no absences. And also no "facts" are included as existents. Anicca is the "fact" that no conditioned dhamma remains. Or we can say that it is a universal characteristic of conditioned dhammas. Now there is something - a characteristic - a property possessed by a dhamma. Perhaps that is something more than concept-only. Yet, where exactly do characteristics fit into the Abhidhammic scheme? What exactly *is* a characteristic? Much of what we call "characteristic" is nothing more than ordinary rupa or cetasika. Hardness is a characteristic (of conventional physical objects), restlessness is a characteristic of mind-moments. Other "characteristics," however, don't seem to fit in. Ironically, the most important characteristics for Buddhists, namely the tilakkhana, are among those that do not fit in. > ----------------- As I understand the above, you can concede that 'specific' characteristics (eg. restlessness and hardness), might be real but you can't concede the same for the three 'universal' characteristics. The reason being that the universals are "absences" and "facts." I think anything can be expressed as an absence -- eg., restlessness, the absence of restfulness. Dukkha, can be seen as the absence of satisfactoryness or the presence of unsatisfactoryness. Anicca can be seen as the presence of the propensity to cease existing. As for "facts"; when we are talking about DIRECT experience, is there any difference between anicca and the fact of anicca? ----------------- > Why, this is all enough to make one go running to Nagarjuna asking for help! ;-)) ---------------- Whoa! No need for that yet :-) Kind regards, Ken H 23106 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabba Sutta Commentary: To Sayadaw Yanatharo, Sayadaw Dhammapiyo, Robert K, Sara Daer Suan, Thank you very much for your translation and notes, most interesting, Would you please also frwd this to Pali yahoo? I am sure many are interested there. anumodana, Nina op 24-06-2003 17:22 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: The following is Sabba Sutta Commentary (the main > portion) and notes on it for your perusal in view of criticisms > against it by some translators and misuse by some academics. 23107 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jun 25, 2003 2:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it Hi Chris, In the Anapanasati Sutta the Buddha speaks of those who are mindful of in and out breathing, not of a particular point to be mindful of. I think being aware of movement at the abdomen was first taught by Mahasi Sayadaw and then by U Pandita in Burma (Myanmar), whereas traditionally the breath at the nostrils had been the focus. The abdomen is a larger area to be aware of than the nose, and it is said that relative beginners may find this easier - particularly when respiration becomes finer and hard to distinguish. I have not heard that changing from the nose to the abdomen or vice versa is detrimental when you are trying to find what best suits you - but it is said that changing often is not recommended. A site that you may find interesting and helpful: http://www.wildmind.org/ You may have noticed by now that on this list there are many people who do formal sitting, walking and standing meditation, as well as many who don't. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" 23108 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jun 25, 2003 5:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Jim (and Larry) Yes, great stuff--interesting how often variations of 'accumulating' seem to be accumulating lately. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Jim, Thanks a lot. This is exactly what I was looking for. I had assumed "endeavour" was a translation of "padhaana" because ~Nanamoli translates padhaana as endeavour, but padhaana didn't quite make sense in this case. The commentary sorted it out nicely. Larry Vism XIV, 3: ...Consciousness knows the object as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring [ussakkitvaa], Com: [.tiikaa: ussakkitvaa ti udayabbaya~naa.napa.tipaa.tiyaa aayuuhitvaa. Com: "by endeavouring" -- by accumulating in succession (or gradually?) the knowledge of rise and fall. Note: aayuuhitvaa is a synonym for ussakitvaa and could also have the meanings given in PED under aayuuhati (striving, endeavouring; cultivating, etc.)] Vism: the manifestation of the [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of its characteristics and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. Com: [.tiikaa: attano pana ana~n~nasaadhaara.nena aanubhaavena ussakkitvaa maggapaatubhaava.m paapetu.m. Com: moreover, by endeavouring through its own power not shared by the others, it (is able to) bring about the manifestation of the path.] 23109 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Jun 25, 2003 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Larry, Robert, and Mike, A note of caution about my rough and likely incorrect translation of the following: << Com: [.tiikaa: ussakkitvaa ti udayabbaya~naa.napa.tipaa.tiyaa aayuuhitvaa. Com: "by endeavouring" -- by accumulating in succession (or gradually?) the knowledge of rise and fall. Note: aayuuhitvaa is a synonym for ussakitvaa and could also have the meanings given in PED under aayuuhati (striving, endeavouring; cultivating, etc.)] >> The Pali doesn't really make a lot of sense to me as it's difficult to determine how "pa.tipaa.tiyaa" (order, succession) fits in and also from further looking up aayuuhati in CPD and although it lists "accumulate" among its meanings it may not apply in that way here as it is considered a transitive in taking an object like kamma. I also checked Cone's dictionary and was surprised to find the following meanings for "ussakkati": moves up, rises; moves forward, advances, progresses -- p.514, with no mention of "endeavour" -- very different from the definitions of PED and CPD! It looks like these terms will need a lot of studying and tracing right back to their roots and prefixes. Best wishes, Jim 23110 From: Date: Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:20am Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi, Ken (and Larry) - Let me immediately get to the main point: the nature of characteristics. Abhidhamma countenances two types of dhammas, rupa and nama. That is all. Some characteristics, such as hardness, are rupas. Some characteristics, such as distractedness, are cetasikas, and hence namas. What is impermanence: nama or rupa? Is the cessation of a hardness a nama or a rupa? Is the cessation of distractedness a nama? Clearly it is not a rupa? Is anicca the same as cessation, or is it the fact that now something is present, and then is no longer present? Is that the same as cessation? (Ceasing is an event that occurs at a point in time. But impermanence of a dhamma involves an earlier time at which there was presence of the dhamma and a subsequent time at which there is absence.) And exactly what is cessation, itself - nama or rupa? If some characteristics are neither nama or rupa, are they pa~n~natti? Could they not still be actualities? Isn't impermanence a reality? Are the answers to any of these crystal clear? While we are at it, what about relations? Abhidhamma covers them. Are they namas? Are they rupas? Are they listed as either? If they are neither, are they pa~n~natti or actualities? Are the answers to any of *these* crystal clear? One more question: If some characteristics (like the tilakkhana) are neither nama nor rupa, and if relations (like the relation of conditionality in conditioned genesis) are neither nama nor rupa, and, yet, they are "conditions", then do not "conditions" become the fundamental dhammas, with rupas, cetasikas, and cittas constituting the subclass of those conditions that are directly observable via the six sense doors, and the others specifically requiring the conceptual faculty of mind for their cognizing? And does not this latter premiss then split the objects of the conceptual faculty into two types, concept-only and actualities? And what is pa~n~na and its relationship to clear comprehension, to a purified, clarified, conceptual faculty? One and the same? Or just related in some way? Or totally unrelated? Yes, I know - lots of questions and no answers. But sometimes I think that questions are far more important than answers. Sometimes answers just shut the mind down, and questions open it up. With metta, Howard P.S. What do I personally *suspect* is the case? I *suspect* that conditions include more than namas and rupas, that some of those conditions (including relations and various characteristics) that are neither nama nor rupa are realities cognized only through the mind door, and, specifically, via a clear comprehension which is a purified, clarified, conceptual faculty which, at its level of ultimate purity (the only level in the arahant), is exactly what wisdom is. I *suspect* this, but, of course, there may be a far better account of the issues raised by my questions. I am eager to hear such an account. In a message dated 6/24/2003 11:05:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > You wrote to Larry: > --------------- > > I'm zero-ing in on one small part of your post > that struck me as very important. You wrote that > impermanence is a concept. I believe this is correct. > > --------------- > > I think you are mistaken in believing that. As a > characteristic of each and every conditioned reality, > anicca is not a concept at all, it is absolutely real. > > --------------- > > Yet impermanence is also a characteristic of every > dhamma there is except nibbana. > > --------------- > > By your reasoning, this implies that dhammas are > characteristically conceptual. This would be a major > dilemma but they aren't and so it isn't :-) > > ------------ > > Now impermanence, itself, cannot be a dhamma, > > > ------------- > > We are told, 'All conditioned dhammas are anicca.' I > think that dhammas ARE their characteristics. I don't > think it is taught that dhammas are a 'substance' > separate from their characteristics. > > --------------- > > for it is false (or meaningless) to speak of > impermanence as being impermanent. > > -------------- > > Fair enough. I don't know if it is said anywhere that > characteristics have characteristics. If they have, then those > characteristics must have characteristics too :-) > > But, in so far as each characteristic is part of a dhamma, then it > must share the universal characteristics of that dhamma. (I > think.) > -------------- > > We find ourselves to be in a strange predicament: > Anicca, an observable, essential characteristic of all > dhammas other than nibbana, is, in fact, concept-only, > and thus actually only a nonexistent "something" > concocted by the mind. It seems that Abhidhamma leaves > many things, critical things, out of its ontology. > > -------------- > > But this is only your [and possibly Larry's] reasoning. > I think most of us say that anicca is real and therefore, > there is no predicament at all. > > ----------- > > In Abhidhamma, there are only the (listed) paramattha > dhammas. They include rupic and namic presences, but, > with the exception of nibbana, no absences. And also no > "facts" are included as existents. Anicca is the "fact" > that no conditioned dhamma remains. Or we can say that it > is a universal characteristic of conditioned dhammas. Now > there is something - a characteristic - a property > possessed by a dhamma. Perhaps that is something more > than concept-only. Yet, where exactly do characteristics > fit into the Abhidhammic scheme? What exactly *is* a > characteristic? Much of what we call "characteristic" is > nothing more than ordinary rupa or cetasika. Hardness is > a characteristic (of conventional physical objects), > restlessness is a characteristic of mind-moments. Other > "characteristics," however, don't seem to fit in. > Ironically, the most important characteristics for > Buddhists, namely the tilakkhana, are among those that do > not fit in. > > ----------------- > > As I understand the above, you can concede that > 'specific' characteristics (eg. restlessness and > hardness), might be real but you can't concede the same > for the three 'universal' characteristics. The reason > being that the universals are "absences" and "facts." > > I think anything can be expressed as an absence -- eg., > restlessness, the absence of restfulness. Dukkha, can be > seen as the absence of satisfactoryness or the presence > of unsatisfactoryness. Anicca can be seen as the > presence of the propensity to cease existing. > > As for "facts"; when we are talking about DIRECT > experience, is there any difference between anicca and > the fact of anicca? > > ----------------- > > Why, this is all enough to make one go running to > Nagarjuna asking for help! ;-)) > ---------------- > > Whoa! No need for that yet :-) > > > Kind regards, > Ken H 23111 From: dwlemen Date: Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:38am Subject: Re: importance of Meditation (my late reply to Sarah) Sarah, OK, I'm back. Again, sorry for the delay. It's been quite a summer! :-) > > DAVE: > > If not, How is it that each individual's basic perception matches? I > > know that we can lump extra stuff onto an object, but the basic > > existence of the object is still there E.g. the moon. It can be a > > god, a piece of cheese, a section of the Earth's inner core, or a > > rememberace of a lost love, but it's there none the less. > ..... > S: Difficult questions as I said! Let's take the moon. When we look at it, > what' s seen? Visible object. If we step on it, what's felt? Hardness. It > isn't that all visible objects are uniform in nature (apart from being > visible objects). If that were so, nothing would ever be identified and we > couldn't survive. So if we look at the moon and there's awareness, there's > no idea of it being a thing or a moon, but what is seen and the > particular visible appearance are just as they've always been and > immediately there are conditions to know it as a moon, even for a baby or > animal without any names or developed associations. If someone else looks > at the moon at the same time, the visible object won't be the same, but > there will be enough in common in 'what is seen' for similar concepts and > identifications to be made. DAVE: I still am not understanding if you are saying that there is really no such thing as the moon or not. When you say "immediately there are conditions to know it as a moon" what do you mean? Are you referring to, perhaps, the difference between what the eye takes in (light, color, motion, etc.) and what the brain then attributes those lights, colors, etc. to be before sending to the mind? If that is the distinction (what the eye takes in, vs. what the mind knows) then I can understand, although I still think that there would be the moon, that exists independently of observation, or understanding. > S: I can see you'd get on well with RobM with your analogies - basically, > different moments as you suggested in a snipped part. It seems it's all > happening at the same time, but hearing and listening (paying attention) > and thinking don't arise at the same moment. When there's a moment of > awareness of one reality, such as hearing or sound, it's clear that > there's no other impingement or idea associated with it. > ..... DAVE: It still sounds like you are talking about conscious awareness being single threaded. And, I can buy that, however, I do think that the brain is taking in the other inputs. So, while I'm focused on seeing the screen, my brain is still absorbing the sounds, smell, feelings, and thoughts. If something comes up that requires focus, my attention to the screen is interupted by the other input. I don't know if what I'm tyring to say/think is Buddhist or not (haven't learned nearly enough to make such a call). But, it does seem to me that, by and large, we are running on "auto-pilot" and our consciousness is just along for the ride, but, because of ego, it thinks it is running the ship, so to speak. But, in this process of my own attempts for understanding, I do want to know how things work from a Buddhist standpoint. From some of the things I've learned so far, I've been amazed at how Buddhism not only "matches" what I have been trying to formulate on my own, but in most cases, as I've better understood Buddhism, I've found that it even better explains it than I was able to before. OK... now to try to answer your questions.... > > Qu: > What are the realities at this moment? DAVE: Not to try to avoid by splitting hairs, but I think it depends on how you are defining "realities." I believe that there are different perspectives from which we can look at reality. For example, at a quantum level, there are strings vibrating and generally mushing around. At a "physical" level, there are causes and effects (be it weather, physics, or biology/chemistry). At a personal level, reality at a moment is the sum of what my consciousness is focused on. > How can awareness be aware of them? DAVE: For the most part, there isn't awareness of them. Physical processes are happening on their own, consciousness is only aware of those sums which have the need for awareness. (btw, I still, at this point, am holding to the idea that the different inputs, like sight, sound, touch, memory, are compiled into a "moon" in pre-awareness and only the "seeing the moon" is what gets bubbled up to consciousness... hence my usage of the term "sum") > Would it be easier for awareness of them to arise if you were sitting > somewhere else in another position? > Why? DAVE: I think so. Not so much for them to "arise" but really for them to "fall away." When meditating, my focus is on my breath. When something else pops up, it is noted and let go. I think that the idea is that, by sitting quetly, I'm reducing the stimulation from all the senses and that is allowing the mind to focus on that one item. The mind should then start to prefer single thoughtedness to every-which-way-at-once-ness. I guess it is like training for anything... if I want to run a marathon, I start in a gym, on a treadmill, in controlled conditions. I can't prepare for a marathon sitting at work, in the car, or whatever. When I want to train the mind, I also need controlled conditions. I hope that makes sense! > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== Peace (and Metta) to you! Dave 23112 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 25, 2003 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it Dear Christedis, op 24-06-2003 17:09 schreef christhedis op charnett@y...: > I was actually recommended Goenka's version as being 'more > scientific'. Does anyone have any advice on which type to practise, is it > bad to learn one then switch to another, or is it best just to find out > which works best for oneself? N: I would think that one should find out for oneself what is best for oneself. We should also be clear as to our purpose of meditating. What is the goal we have in mind, calm or understanding of the phenomena inside ourselves and outside of ourselves? If the goal is calm, are we clear about it what calm is? Calm is being away from attachment, aversion and delusion, all those negative properties. But this is not easy, we have to discern precisely when there is calm and when there is not. We may easily take subtle attachment for true calm. If the goal is more understanding, there are a few quastions we could ask ourselves: what do I learn, what do I understand? Is there more detachment form the idea of self or is there attachment? Is there attachment to an idea of my practice? We should also know what should be understood: what are the objects of understanding? When do these objects appear, are they of the past, the future or the present? Important questions which must be answered, otherwise one does not know into what direction one is going. All these questions cannot be answered immediately, they have to be pondered on for a long time. Nina. Nina. 23113 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 25, 2003 10:01am Subject: Perfections, Ch 10, loving-kindness, no 7 Perfections, Ch 10, loving-kindness, no 7 Most people find the brahmavihåras valuable, but they should verify for themselves whether they truly have loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity. We should remember that the development of paññå and the eradication of defilements take an endlessly long time. As we have seen, compassion is intent on removing the suffering of beings. However, since paññå is not of the degree of accomplishment of the Sammasambuddha, we do not fathom the true characteristic of suffering, dukkha. We do not fully grasp that all beings are subject to dukkha because of birth, old age, sickness, death and impermanence. The arising and falling away of realities is the noble Truth of dukkha, this is the real suffering. Real compassion is of another dimension and can only be fulfilled by the Buddha [4]. In our daily life we usually do not realize that beings and people are subject to the suffering which is being in the cycle of birth and death. It is difficult for us to have true compassion, and therefore, there are more opportunities for the arising of mettå. When we see other beings and people, we can extend mettå towards them and assist them with mettå. However, it may happen that other people are beyond help. If we have developed paññå we can have equanimity and evenmindedness. We can have impartiality and equanimity with regard to righteous people as well as people with wrong conduct. This is the perfection of equanimity. For us, compassion and sympathetic joy do not arise so often in daily life, whereas mettå and equanimity are perfections we can develop time and again in daily life. Compassion and sympathetic joy are not classified among the ten perfections. We read in the ³Atthasåliní ² about the four brahmavihåras ((Book I, Part V, Ch XIII, Divine States, 193) : ³...love (mettå) has the characteristic of being a procedure of modes of beneficence; the function or property of bringing good; the manifestation or effect of taking hatred away; the proximate cause of seeing the lovableness of beings. Its consummation (success) is the quieting of ill-will; its failure is the production of lust.² We should remember that kusala and akusala can be very close in appearance. Therefore, we should often realize the characteristics of realities so that we shall know whether we develop kusala or whether akusala arises. We read about compassion: ³Pity (compassion) has the characteristic of evolving the mode of removing pain; the property of not being able to bear [seeing] others suffer; the manifestation of kindness; the proximate cause of seeing the need of those overcome by pain. Its consummation is the quieting of cruelty; its failure is the production of sorrow. ³ We read about sympathetic joy: ³Sympathy has the characteristic of gladness; its property is the absence of envying; its manifestation is the destruction of disaffection (discontentment); its proximate cause is seeing the prosperous state of other beings. Its consummation is the quieting of dislike; its failure is the production of derision (fun).² Sympathteic joy and attachment are very close. When we are thrilled and greatly rejoice in someone else¹s gain, honour and praise, there is bound to be lobha and this is not sympathetic joy. We read about equanimity: ³Equanimity has the characteristic of evolving the mode of neutrality as regards beings; its function is seeing equality in beings; its manifestation is quieting both aversion and attachment; its proximate cause is seeing the heritage of the occurring kamma as ³Beings are the property of their kamma. By its influence they will attain to pleasure, or be free from pain, or not fall from the prosperity already acquired. Its consummation is the quieting of aversion and of attachment; its failure is the production of an unintelligent indifference which is based on the home life.² Footnote: 4. The Bodhisatta wanted to attain Buddhahood so that he could help beings to be free from the cycle of birth and death. It is said in the Commentary to the ŒBasket of Conduct² that the perfections he developed were accompanied by compassion and skilful means. We read: ³ What are their characteristics, functions, manifestations and proximate causes? Firstly, all the paramis, without exception, have as their characteristic the benefitting of others; as their function, the rendering of help to others, or not vacillating; as their manifestation, the wish for the welfare of others, or Buddhahood; and as their proximate cause, great compassion, or compassion and skilful means.² 23114 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 25, 2003 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Dear Jim, Thank you very much, this is very interesting. not common to others: those who do not attain enlightenment? I wonder which others. Nina. op 24-06-2003 15:37 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > [.tiikaa: attano pana ana~n~nasaadhaara.nena aanubhaavena ussakkitvaa > maggapaatubhaava.m paapetu.m. > > moreover, by endeavouring through its own power not shared by the > others, it (is able to) bring about the manifestation of the path.] 23115 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Dear Nina, I take "ana~n~nasaadhaara.nena" to mean "(through pa~n~na's own power which is) not common to or shared by the other two (sa~n~naa and vi~n~naa.na). Can you make any sense of the "pa.tipaa.tiyaa" I mentioned in my earlier post? I'm currently thinking of a step-by-step progression starting with knowledge of the rise and fall and on through the higher levels of knowledge leading to change-of-lineage and path-moment but it's hard to read this into the Pali phrase, don't you think? Best wishes, Jim > Dear Jim, > Thank you very much, this is very interesting. > not common to others: those who do not attain enlightenment? I wonder which > others. > Nina. > op 24-06-2003 15:37 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > > > [.tiikaa: attano pana ana~n~nasaadhaara.nena aanubhaavena ussakkitvaa > > maggapaatubhaava.m paapetu.m. > > > > moreover, by endeavouring through its own power not shared by the > > others, it (is able to) bring about the manifestation of the path.] 23116 From: Date: Wed Jun 25, 2003 4:52pm Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Howard and Ken, Regarding the Buddha's ontology (right view of the nature of existence) I thought you might be interested in the following verse from Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika and Garfield's comment. This verse refers to "The Discourse of Katyayana" which I think is Kaccayanagotta Sutta SN XII,15, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-015.html MMK XV, 7: The Victorious One, through knowledge Of reality and unreality, In the Discourse to Katyayana, Refuted both "it is" and "it is not." Garfield: In the Discourse to Katyayana, the Buddha argues that to assert that things exist inherently is to fall into the extreme of reification, to argue that things do not exist at all is to fall into the extreme of nihilism, and to follow the middle way is neither to assert in an unqualified way that things exist nor in an unqualified way that things do not exist. It represents one of the fundamental suttas of the Pali canon for Mahayana philosophy. In the sutta, the Buddha claims that reification derives from the failure to note impermanence and leads to grasping, craving, and the attendant suffering. Nihilism, he claims, is motivated by the failure to note the empirical reality of arising phenomena. It leads to suffering from failure to take life, others, and morality seriously enough. The middle path of conventional existence leads to engagement in the world without attachment. Larry: The question for us is, does this "whether things exist" issue refer to both sides of the concept/reality distinction, and, if so, do we then loose the distinction and consequently the main rational behind the anatta characteristic? Feeling, etc., is not self because "self" is a concept and feeling isn't. Just to complicate things even more, I had a thought today. If we say that the essence or main characteristic of concept is relationship, then what would happen if we say conditional relations (paccaya) function by means of relational thinking? This would mean that dependent arising functions by means of conceptual thinking. Is there a problem with this? Larry 23117 From: Date: Wed Jun 25, 2003 5:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Jim and Nina, Thanks for your additional considerations. I would be interested in any other info or reasoning you come up with concerning the usage of "endeavour" in this paragraph. Is there a sub-commentary? Larry 23118 From: Date: Wed Jun 25, 2003 5:59pm Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi, Larry (and Ken) - I find myself somewhat unable at the moment to give a worthwhile reply, Larry. I'm not quite sure why - perhaps it's just that I'm a bit tired at the moment. I think I will wait until I hear from Ken and others on this before I figure out what my two cents will be. ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/25/2003 6:52:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard and Ken, > > Regarding the Buddha's ontology (right view of the nature of existence) > I thought you might be interested in the following verse from > Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika and Garfield's comment. This verse > refers to "The Discourse of Katyayana" which I think is Kaccayanagotta > Sutta SN XII,15, > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-015.html > > MMK XV, 7: The Victorious One, through knowledge Of reality and > unreality, In the Discourse to Katyayana, Refuted both "it is" and "it > is not." > > Garfield: In the Discourse to Katyayana, the Buddha argues that to > assert that things exist inherently is to fall into the extreme of > reification, to argue that things do not exist at all is to fall into > the extreme of nihilism, and to follow the middle way is neither to > assert in an unqualified way that things exist nor in an unqualified way > that things do not exist. It represents one of the fundamental suttas of > the Pali canon for Mahayana philosophy. In the sutta, the Buddha claims > that reification derives from the failure to note impermanence and leads > to grasping, craving, and the attendant suffering. Nihilism, he claims, > is motivated by the failure to note the empirical reality of arising > phenomena. It leads to suffering from failure to take life, others, and > morality seriously enough. The middle path of conventional existence > leads to engagement in the world without attachment. > > Larry: The question for us is, does this "whether things exist" issue > refer to both sides of the concept/reality distinction, and, if so, do > we then loose the distinction and consequently the main rational behind > the anatta characteristic? Feeling, etc., is not self because "self" is > a concept and feeling isn't. > > Just to complicate things even more, I had a thought today. If we say > that the essence or main characteristic of concept is relationship, then > what would happen if we say conditional relations (paccaya) function by > means of relational thinking? This would mean that dependent arising > functions by means of conceptual thinking. Is there a > problem with this? > > Larry 23119 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 25, 2003 9:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, other options. Dear Jim, just a few thoughts op 25-06-2003 15:57 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...> > << Com: [.tiikaa: ussakkitvaa ti udayabbaya~naa.napa.tipaa.tiyaa > aayuuhitvaa. > > Com: "by endeavouring" -- by accumulating in succession (or > gradually?) the knowledge of rise and fall. Note: aayuuhitvaa is a > synonym for ussakitvaa and could also have the meanings given in PED > under aayuuhati (striving, endeavouring; cultivating, etc.)] >> > > The Pali doesn't really make a lot of sense to me as it's difficult to > determine how "pa.tipaa.tiyaa" (order, succession) fits in N: I would think of the stages of insight which are reached in succession, before lokuttara maggacitta arises. J:and also > from further looking up aayuuhati in CPD and although it lists > "accumulate" among its meanings it may not apply in that way here as > it is considered a transitive in taking an object like kamma. I also > checked Cone's dictionary and was surprised to find the following > meanings for "ussakkati": moves up, rises; moves forward, advances, > progresses -- p.514, with no mention of "endeavour" -- N: I saw ussakkati having a variant: ussukkati: endeavour. I saw in subco Mahaaraahulovaadasutta the two words: aniccaadisa~n~naaya vipassanaabhaavena ussakkitvaa maggapa.tipaa.tiyaa arahattaadhigamaaya hotiiti by having developed insight with zeal it leads to (is for) the attainment of arahatship by the succession of the Paths (that is, the other lower Paths). Nina. 23120 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jun 25, 2003 10:47pm Subject: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Howard, You wrote: -------------- > Let me immediately get to the main point: the nature of characteristics. Abhidhamma countenances two types of dhammas, rupa and nama. That is all. Some characteristics, such as hardness, are rupas. Some characteristics, such as distractedness, are cetasikas, and hence namas. What is impermanence: nama or rupa? > ---------------- I understand a dhamma to have (or to be comprised of), several characteristics. I doubt very much that each characteristic is a separate nama or rupa in its own right. I think the Abhidhamma's explanations of ultimate reality basically parallel conventional science. Lobha and dosa, for example, are like gold and silver, in that they are realities with characteristics -- some that are shared and some that make those realities different from each other. In conventional science, matter can be described in terms of atomic and sub-atomic particles but, if we ask a scientist to say what, ultimately, all matter is composed of, he will say, "the four elemental forces -- gravity, electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force." If we ask the scientist to look further -- into those elemental forces themselves -- he will tell us that, in the absolute, final analysis, there are only laws -- the laws of nature. According to the Tipitaka, realities are similarly composed of elemental forces -- extension, cohesion, heat and motion. The only thing more elemental than the elements themselves, is the Dhamma (the Way; the way things are; the natural law; conditionality). And so we are taught 'to see conditionality everywhere in all things.' -------------------- > P.S. What do I personally *suspect* is the case? I *suspect* that conditions include more than namas and rupas, that some of those conditions (including relations and various characteristics) that are neither nama nor rupa are realities cognized only through the mind door, and, specifically, via a clear comprehension which is a purified, clarified, conceptual faculty which, at its level of ultimate purity (the only level in the arahant), is exactly what wisdom is. -------------------- I gather you are referring to something that is either denied by, or not contemplated in, the Abhidhamma. I look forward to hearing more. Is it a totally new theory of your own, or are we going to hear the 'en word' again? :-) Kind regards, Ken H 23121 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabba Sutta Commentary: To Sayadaw Yanatharo, Sayadaw Dhammapiyo, Robert K, Sara Suan Many thanks for this useful translation and your supplementary comments. This is very helpful in coming to a better understanding of this sutta. Jon PS Thanks from Sarah, too. --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > Dear Sayadaw Yanatharo, Sayadaw Dhammapiyo, Robert Kirpatrick, > Sarah, > Jon, Nina, Mike, Jim, Christine and all > > How are you? The following is Sabba Sutta Commentary (the main > portion) and notes on it for your perusal in view of criticisms > against it by some translators and misuse by some academics. > > If you need further clarification of my translation or notes, > please > let me know. > > Please enjoy the post. > > With regards, > > Suan > > > SABBASUTTAVA.N.NANAA 23122 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] about The Buddha Nina Very interesting material you quote here. Much to think about. As you say, it needs to be understood as it is meant to be. Otherwise it's easy to read it as putting oneself to the test, with idea of self. Jon (Hong Kong airport, waiting to board) --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Christine and all, ... > The Buddha > said, ³I sleep in a cemetery, taking as a pillow the skeleton of a > corpse. I > have evenmindedness with regard to what is clean and what is > dirty.² ... > The Bodhisatta stayed longer in those places where he was pestered > and > ridiculed a great deal, he wanted to accumulate equanimity. We > should see > this in the right way: it is not self-vexation. He knew what he > could stand, > he knew the power of accumulation. Though we do not have to follow > this > exactly, it can help and inspire us when we remember his example of > equanimity. > 23123 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Rob K, Jim, Larry, Howard, Nina and others Many thanks, Larry, for bringing up this section from the Vis. I have been following with interest. Personally, I still find puzzling the reference to vinnana being able to 'bring about the penetration of the characteristics of an object'. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what this refers to exactly? Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jim, > > Thanks a lot. This is exactly what I was looking for. I had assumed > "endeavour" was a translation of "padhaana" because ~Nanamoli > translates > padhaana as endeavour, but padhaana didn't quite make sense in this > case. The commentary sorted it out nicely. > > Larry > > Vism XIV, 3: ...Consciousness knows the object as blue or yellow, > and it > brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot > bring > about, by endeavouring [ussakkitvaa], 23124 From: monomuni Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 5:45am Subject: The choosing & creating consciousness! Friends: Who created this reality ? Who created this world ? You did !!! By consciously choosing to experience it! Who is the Creator ? Ignorance & Craving for conscious experiences! Consciousness is the choice to notice or to ignore... Exactly here do 2 entirely different 'experiences' or 'worlds' appear from a set of unevenly distributed probabilities, which are predetermined by past actions, choices & conscious experiences. The freedom to choose future (free will) is thereby limited by prior action = kamma, which determines the limited set of possibilities to choose from! Consciousness is thereby the process wherein a: Potential Reality becomes an Actual Reality ... !!! by making the wave-function of quantum mechanical diversity collapse and condense into a single event of occurrence. So do the modern physicists really say. An so have they said for 50 years! This event was before the active choice of consciousness one out of many different possibilities, of many different realities, of many different worlds! The probability has become an actuality! A reality is born - again! The link between mind & matter is thereby established. The funny part is that you also chooses the 'others' reality & they chooses yours!!! This endless momentary show of choices stops when we stop to choose between any possibilities which thereby remain an open, unchosen, uncreated, unconstructed, unborn & unconditioned state called Nibbana ... Friendship is the Greatest ! The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Samanera Samahita Email: monomuni@m... : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Though little he recites the Sacred Texts, but acts in accordance with the teaching, forsaking lust, hatred and ignorance, truly knowing, with mind well freed, clinging to naught here and hereafter, he shares the fruits of the Holy life. Random Dhammapada Verse 20 23125 From: monomuni Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:03am Subject: Convergence towards consistence & correspondence Friends: Quantum Mechanics denies both Objectivity & Locality. So do the Buddha-Dhamma! Quantum Mechanics points out a multidimensional potentiality of the world...(s)! So do the Buddha-Dhamma! Quantum Mechanics gives importance to an undivisable minimal 'action' unit. So do the Buddha-Dhamma! Physicists calls this 'reaction unit' Plancks Constant! (E=hf) The Buddha called the same 'action unit' kamma! The very subtle intention or choice to do or not. This minimal action unit may be the treshold energy for mind to affect matter non-locally in both time & space! These at first glance very different formulations of matter and mind respectively, seems to converge towards consistency. This smells of a correspondence, not too far off! A Unified Theory! Of Matter & Mind! Of Quantum Physics & Buddha-Dhamma! Hehehe. We have looked for this for quite long even though it has been here > 50 years. Afterall it is the same phenomenology we talk about so true theories should reach the same conclusions even though from different angles. The mountain has only one very same top whatever way you climb up! : - ] Friendship is the Greatest ! The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Samanera Samahita Cypress Hut, Gangamulla Bambarella, Tawalantenna 20838. Central Province. SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ The liar goes to a woeful state, and also he who, having done (wrong), says, "I did not." Both after death become equal, men of base actions in the other world. Random Dhammapada Verse 306 23126 From: monomuni Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:17am Subject: Quantum Theory is Abhidhamma! Friends: To be or not to be is not the question but the answer! We have found the enemy! It is Us! We have found the Hidden Variables! (In Quantum Theory) They are Us! Fred A Wolf! Hehehe :-) Modern Physics is not without humor! Remarkable is the quite close similarity of the Quantum Mechanical Theory of Planck, Bohr, Heisenberg, Schroedinger & Bell ao. and the Abhidhamma of the Buddha: Like the two sides of the same coin! The world is 'chosen' or 'created' from a infinite multitude of possibilities = (non-local collapsing wave-functions), right at the moment someone observes it! Paradoxical, counter-intuitive & even Magical! Mind creates or chooses Matter! Plop! Matter is a series of discrete & discontinous appearances in sequetial location! Mind is a series of discrete & discontinous conscious moments in sequential time! In an endless flux without beginning. One cannot come any closer than that. Both realities whether material or mental blinks as a updated computer screen or neon, yet mind blinks 17 times faster than matter Mind is fast, matter is slow. Mind over matter after all. Hehehe ;-) Recommended easy reading for the interested: 'Taking the Quantum Leap' Fred A Wolf. 1981 Harper & Row. San Francisco. ISBN 0062509802 Hold On! If you become dizzy considering this, you are going in the right direction. Keep On! : - ] Friendship is the Greatest ! The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Samanera Samahita Email: monomuni@m... -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Should one find a good companion to walk with and who is steadfast and upright, one should walk with him with joy so as to overcome all dangers. Random Dhammapada Verse 328 23127 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, other options. Dear Nina, > Dear Jim, > just a few thoughts > op 25-06-2003 15:57 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...> > > << Com: [.tiikaa: ussakkitvaa ti udayabbaya~naa.napa.tipaa.tiyaa > > aayuuhitvaa. > > > > Com: "by endeavouring" -- by accumulating in succession (or > > gradually?) the knowledge of rise and fall. Note: aayuuhitvaa is a > > synonym for ussakitvaa and could also have the meanings given in PED > > under aayuuhati (striving, endeavouring; cultivating, etc.)] >> > > > > The Pali doesn't really make a lot of sense to me as it's difficult to > > determine how "pa.tipaa.tiyaa" (order, succession) fits in > N: I would think of the stages of insight which are reached in succession, > before lokuttara maggacitta arises. This is exactly what I have in mind too! I looked to see if there were other occurences of "udayabbaya~naa.napa.tipaa.tiyaa" on the CSCD and apparently this is the only one. But, interestingly, there are two occurrences of "udayabbaya~naa.naadipa.tipaa.tiyaa" (with an "aadi" included) -- one in the same Mahaa.tiikaa and the other in the Saaratthadiipanii (Sp.t). However, I have three versions of the Mahaa.tiikaa and found that the spelling without the 'aadi' is the same in all for the subcommentary on XIV.3. Perhaps other versions (like a Sinhalese one) might show the 'aadi'. It starts to make a lot of sense with the 'aadi' (and so on) for we can certainly read in the successive stages leading up to the path-moment. > J:and also > > from further looking up aayuuhati in CPD and although it lists > > "accumulate" among its meanings it may not apply in that way here as > > it is considered a transitive in taking an object like kamma. I also > > checked Cone's dictionary and was surprised to find the following > > meanings for "ussakkati": moves up, rises; moves forward, advances, > > progresses -- p.514, with no mention of "endeavour" -- > N: I saw ussakkati having a variant: ussukkati: endeavour. > I saw in subco Mahaaraahulovaadasutta the two words: aniccaadisa~n~naaya > vipassanaabhaavena ussakkitvaa maggapa.tipaa.tiyaa > arahattaadhigamaaya hotiiti > by having developed insight with zeal it leads to (is for) the attainment of > arahatship by the succession of the Paths (that is, the other lower Paths). Thanks for pointing out the "maggapa.tipaa.tiyaa" and your translation. Very interesitng. One can easily see that an 'aadi' wouldn't belong here as would seem necessary in the other case. The CPD has two separate entries for "ussakkati" based on two different roots. Cone seems to be following the first one with "to creep out, or up to, rise" whereas PED is mostly following the second one with "to endeavour, strive, etc.". I find the first and Cone's meanings (eg. to progress) to be more acceptable and fitting here. Best wishes, Jim 23128 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 9:03am Subject: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Dear Howard, I'm a bit out of practice, so please be patient with me if my post seems clumsy. I have a working hypothesis (to use one of Mike's delicious phrases). Instead of thinking only of Concept vs. Real Reality, it is sometimes helpful to think of ways of knowing: the inferential or conceptual (anumana-ñana) and direct knowning (pativedha-ñana). An example: Suppose an object is first discerned, then passes away; then, it is noticed through recollection (and thought): "The object that was there has passed away." This is an inferential, conceptual understanding of impermanence. Of course, the realization may well come quicker than the words, but it is still conceptual knowledge, as you note so forcefully in your posts. Sometimes when the mind is sharply concentrated (e.g., as it may be in the course of an intensive meditation retreat), the comparing of the moment now with one that just passed may strongly and clearly suggest the concept "impermanence". Because of the comparing, this too is an inferential knowing of impermanence, even when it seems crystal clear to an extent unprecedented in the course of everyday living. As you also point out, though, the clarity of this conceptual understanding is helpful and should not be given short shrift. In fact, conceptual understanding is essential in the development of insight. At the same time, this very clarity of understanding can be an obstacle if it is mistakenly taken as direct knowing or insight because it is so very easy to take it as "my insight" and think "I am really progressing -- cool!" But knowledge of anicca can also arise directly. How so? Objects are known by their characteristics (lakkhana, rasa, paccupatthana, padatthana, or "characteristic", "function", "manifestation", "proximate cause"). In the example above, the object (paramattha dhamma) may have been the earth element (experienced as hardness) or a feeling of greed (experienced as "sticking, as meat sticks to a hot pan") or some other object. In addition to the familiar, characteristics like "hardness" and "sticking", the characteristic of "impermanence" is shared by all paramattha dhammas (except nibbana). Like the other characteristics, anicca can also be known directly. On that occasion, anicca is the characteristic that is seen. There is no "hardness" or inference of "hardness is anicca". There is no "lobha cetasika" or inference of "lobha cetasika is anicca". For a moment the mind cognizes simply "anicca". But what does the mind see when it sees the characteristic "anicca" in a single moment? We are so used to thinking about anicca inferentially that it does not seem possible to understand anicca *except* inferentially, i.e. by comparing a present moment without an object to a prior moment when the object was there. However, at a time when the mind is sufficiently free from attachment, there is no grasping at characteristics like hardness. "Objects" as we normally think of them are not cognized. Everywhere the attention turns, objects slip away before they are grasped, and the mind does not find a foothold anywhere. "No-foothold" (due to the ephemerality of the dhammas) is a manifestation of anicca that can be realized directly without having to resort to the inference: "It was there; now it's gone. Anicca!" Dan Howard: "Sometimes, and this is one of those times, I think that we give too little credit to concepts. When do we really come to "directly" see impermanence? I think this happens when the mind is powerfuly attentive, concentrated, and mindful: An object is discerned, perhaps through a number of mind-moments, then it is gone, and then there is the noticing, through recollection (and thought), that it just had been present, but now is gone - and so, we "see" that it has ceased." 23129 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 9:39am Subject: Re: Quantum Theory is Abhidhamma! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "monomuni" > Remarkable is the quite close similarity > of the Quantum Mechanical Theory of Planck, > Bohr, Heisenberg, Schroedinger & Bell ao. > and the Abhidhamma of the Buddha: > Like the two sides of the same coin! > > > The world is 'chosen' or 'created' from a > infinite multitude of possibilities = > (non-local collapsing wave-functions), > right at the moment someone observes it! > Paradoxical, counter-intuitive & even Magical! > Mind creates or chooses Matter! Plop! > Matter is a series of discrete & discontinous > appearances in sequetial location! > Mind is a series of discrete & discontinous > conscious moments in sequential time! > In an endless flux without beginning. > One cannot come any closer than that. > Both realities whether material or mental > blinks as a updated computer screen or neon, > yet mind blinks 17 times faster than matter > Mind is fast, matter is slow. > Mind over matter after all. > Hehehe ;-) > Hi Friend, While the Abhidhamma may actually say this, those who interpret it for general consumption, especially the Abhidhamma-lovers of this group, don't interpret the Abhidhamma in this way. To their way of thinking, nama and rupa are quite separate and not dependent on each other. They even go so far as to state that the highest insight isn't achieved until one sees the difference between nama and rupa. I have long championed the position you state in this post, that mind creates matter and therefore not really seperate, but I wouldn't say that this position is Abhidhamma. This is modern, scientific thought while the Abhidhamma, as far as I can tell, is based on antiquated, unscientific theories. Metta, James 23130 From: Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 9:47am Subject: Blasphemy and that Old Devil "N" (Re: Concepts and Characteristics) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 6/26/2003 12:47:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > You wrote: > > -------------- > > Let me immediately get to the main point: the nature > of characteristics. Abhidhamma countenances two types of > dhammas, rupa and nama. That is all. Some > characteristics, such as hardness, are rupas. Some > characteristics, such as distractedness, are cetasikas, > and hence namas. What is impermanence: nama or rupa? > > ---------------- > > I understand a dhamma to have (or to be comprised of), > several characteristics. I doubt very much that each > characteristic is a separate nama or rupa in its own > right. > > I think the Abhidhamma's explanations of ultimate reality > basically parallel conventional science. Lobha and dosa, > for example, are like gold and silver, in that they are > realities with characteristics -- some that are shared > and some that make those realities different from each > other. ------------------------------- Howard: These are cetasikas, and they are characteristics of the mindstate in which they occur. Besides the cetasikas, there is the citta, itself (the discerning) and the arammana (nama or rupa that is discerned). This mindstate, or bundle consisting of citta, arammana, and cetasikas, being a compound, must be pa~n~natti, no? It is not a single paramattha dhamma, is it? Here one seems to have a problem inmmediately! (But this is a different matter than my main point.) What I was saying was that if, as Abhidhamma asserts, there is naught but nama and rupa, then, unless the tilakkhana (and all other characteristics) are namas or rupas, they must be nothing at at all - mere figments, concept-only! In particular, impermanence and relations, "things" which go beyond single mindstates, must be concept-only! Now, I find that an "unhappy" conclusion. My attempt at a hypothesized solution was to consider that there is a category more general than those of namas and rupas, namely that of "conditions", and that some conditions, such as impermanence and most relations, transcend individual mind-moments. Now, mind you, if it can be shown that there is no problem at all where I seem to see some problems, or if there is a problem, but a much better solution is already provided for within Abhidhamma, I will enthusiastically and gratefully applaud this demonstration! I'm not "looking for trouble", Ken, or trying to cause upset to anyone devoted to that magnificent edifice that Abhidhamma is. I'm just using my mind to attempt to grasp (intellectually only, of course) the way things are. None of this would come up at all were I to restrict my attention only to the Sutta Pitaka and to my "practice," but I wish to investigate issues growing out of Abhidhamma as well. To give proper respect to the Abhidhamma, I feel compelled to not just passively accept what I read or hear as "received word", but to question, investigate, and interrogate others more knowledgeable than myself. --------------------------------- > > In conventional science, matter can be described in terms > of atomic and sub-atomic particles but, if we ask a > scientist to say what, ultimately, all matter is composed > of, he will say, "the four elemental forces -- gravity, > electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force and the weak > nuclear force." > > If we ask the scientist to look further -- into those > elemental forces themselves -- he will tell us that, in > the absolute, final analysis, there are only laws -- the > laws of nature. > > According to the Tipitaka, realities are similarly > composed of elemental forces -- extension, cohesion, heat > and motion. -------------------------------- Howard: Rupas. -------------------------------- > > The only thing more elemental than the elements > themselves, is the Dhamma (the Way; the way things are; > the natural law; conditionality). And so we are taught > 'to see conditionality everywhere in all things.' > > -------------------- > > > P.S. What do I personally *suspect* is the case? I > *suspect* that conditions include more than namas and > rupas, that some of those conditions (including relations > and various characteristics) that are neither nama nor > rupa are realities cognized only through the mind door, > and, specifically, via a clear comprehension which is a > purified, clarified, conceptual faculty which, at its > level of ultimate purity (the only level in the arahant), > is exactly what wisdom is. > -------------------- > > I gather you are referring to something that is either > denied by, or not contemplated in, the Abhidhamma. I > look forward to hearing more. Is it a totally new theory > of your own, or are we going to hear the 'en word' again? > :-) ------------------------------ Howard: I would hope that we can refrain from bringing up that Mahayana devil!!! ;-)) But, inasmuch as you mention N, it happens that his emphasis is *exactly* on the underlying conditionality that you, yourself, refer to as "more elemental than the elements themselves." ------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H ============================== With metta, Howard 23131 From: Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi, Jon (and all) - In a message dated 6/26/2003 6:25:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Rob K, Jim, Larry, Howard, Nina and others > > Many thanks, Larry, for bringing up this section from the Vis. I > have been following with interest. > > Personally, I still find puzzling the reference to vinnana being able > to 'bring about the penetration of the characteristics of an object'. > Does anyone have any suggestions as to what this refers to > exactly? > > Jon ================================= Somewhere I've read, possibly by David Kalupahana, of vi~n~nana being described as a "separative awareness". What I believe was meant by that was not only (or even mainly) a subject-object awareness, but very much that of an awareness which "separates" out, distinguishing the object along with parts and aspects of that object, but without the recognitional capacity of sa~n~na. With metta, Howard 23132 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Dear Jim, Thank you, that is it, looking at the context. pa.tipaa.tiyaa: see my post. Nina. op 25-06-2003 20:10 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > I take "ana~n~nasaadhaara.nena" to mean "(through pa~n~na's own power > which is) not common to or shared by the other two (sa~n~naa and > vi~n~naa.na). 23133 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:the moon Dear Dave and all, Sarah is away now, and I shall just take out one topic: the moon. See below. Difficult Qu she asked, difficult to answer. it is all a long term matter. op 25-06-2003 17:38 schreef dwlemen op dwlemen@y...: > I still am not understanding if you are saying that there is really > no such thing as the moon or not. When you say "immediately there > are conditions to know it as a moon" what do you mean? Are you > referring to, perhaps, the difference between what the eye takes in > (light, color, motion, etc.) and what the brain then attributes those > lights, colors, etc. to be before sending to the mind? If that is > the distinction (what the eye takes in, vs. what the mind knows) then > I can understand, although I still think that there would be the > moon, that exists independently of observation, or understanding. Nina: We can think of the moon in different ways. We like the moon, we are attached to it. We can think with kusala citta: seeing the image of a hare in it we think of the Sassa Jataka, the Jataka of the Hare, where the Bodhisatta gave away his body, letting himself fall into the fire. We may also be attached to this Jataka, or have aversion. Or full moon: Uposatha day, day of vigilance, five or eight precepts. There is another way of viewing it, as Sarah explained: there are six doorways, and through each doorway the citta experiences the relevant object. Rob K recently mentioned as recommended suttas: Kindred Sayings IV. I think about an often quoted sutta: IV, 52 (Ch 4 on Channa) transitory: Thus, there are six worlds. This does not appeal to everyone, it takes a long time to have more understanding of it. However, this really happens: cittas arise and fall away rapidly, and each citta only takes one object at a time. Each citta is accompanied by remembrance, sanna, which marks the object and therefore there is remembrance of different impressions which seem to be a whole: the moon. We do not deny the importance also of concepts, we cannot function without it. But understanding can be developed of what things really are in the ultimate sense. I quote Rob K to Swee Boon: Intellectual understanding of the six worlds is a foundation for satipatthana, by which you can later on experience the impermanence of realities. We think of wholes, but in between we can remember: only visible object (whispered object :-) ) through eyes, it does not stay; what I see as the moon does not stay. Thus, this is the purpose of knowing six worlds separately: it leads to detachment. It will eventually help to cling less to the idea of my experience, my feelings. Actually it can remind us not to delay the development of satipatthana. We are deluding ourselves all the time when we are taken in by the world. Nina. 23134 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:04am Subject: Perfections, Ch 10, Loving-kindness, no 8 Perfections, Ch 10, Loving-kindness, no 8 Unintelligent indifference means indifference based on ignorance, moha. When we have ignorance, we do not know realities as they are, and then we shall not understand kamma, which causes realities to arise as its appropriate result. With regard to the expression about equanimity ³based on the home life², this means, based on visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object, thus, the sense objects. When we see what appears through the eyes and we are indifferent, we do not seem to have attachment or aversion, but we should not believe that that is kusala. It is indifference ³based on the home life² because at such moments we do not know the truth. We shall not abandon defilements when we do not listen to the Dhamma and when we do not understand it; when there is no paññå which knows the characteristics of realities as they really are. There is indifference which is the near enemy [5] of the brahmavihåra of equanimity when we do not consider what is right and what is wrong, and we do not investigate the true nature of the realities that are appearing. Someone who saw another person committing wrong actions was upset and he wondered when he would receive the result of his kamma. When someone else objected to his attitude and asked him whether he had mettå or not, he said that he wished the person who committed wrong actions to receive the appropriate results of his actions. However, he should consider what kind of citta motivated his thinking, whether he developed the brahmavihåras of mettå, compassion, sympathetic joy or equanimity. At the moment someone else receives the result of a bad deed, when he is in trouble and distress, or he has to suffer, other people will feel sorry for him. However, at the moment someone is performing akusala kamma, which is the cause of a future result, people forget to realize that then they should sympathize and have loving-kindness for him. If one is not a friend to someone who commits bad deeds, who will be his friend? There is a way to help him to be free from deeds and thoughts which are akusala. If someone is a real friend he can help him to change his unwholesome conduct to wholesome conduct. We should do our utmost to help him, and not leave him to commit akusala and then wait to see the result of his kamma. The person who wanted to see the result of someone¹s akusala kamma, was actually sorry for him when he received an undesirable result. However, he sympathized too late, he should have had loving-kindness at the moment he committed akusala kamma. In the ultimate sense there are no beings or persons, there are only realities which arise, each with their own characteristic. We think of different situations and people with kusala citta or with akusala citta. We should know the difference between kusala and akusala. If we live according to the Dhamma, we shall further develop paññå and all ways of kusala. We shall know immediately at which moment there is no loving-kindness but akusala. Then we shall be able to have loving-kindness immediately for a person who is like an enemy. Footnote: 5. Visuddhimagga IX, 98-101 mentions the near enenmies and the far enemies of the divine abidings. The far enemy is the opposite; in the case of equanimity attachment and aversion are the opposites, the far enemies. The near enemy seems to be close, people erroneously take it for a wholesome quality. In the case of equanimity, the near enemy is ignorance based on the home life, "since both share in ignoring faults and virtues". The Visuddhimagga explains that when seeing visible object, "equanimity arises in the foolish infatuated, ordinary man..." This is not the divine abiding of equanimity which is evenmindedness. **** (end of chapter 10) 23135 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 op 24-06-2003 07:06 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Dear Larry, you bring up many points, but several are solved now when reading what Jim said and our discussions. L:The way I see it, both the > consciousness of impermanence and the understanding of impermanence > would be conceptual because impermanence is a concept. N: See what Ken explained to well about characteristics. quoting an old post by Jon: Jon: L: Maybe this one > word "endeavour" is meant to encompass all we have learned about > "sampajanna" in the Satipatthana Sutta Commentary? N: Sampajanna is panna, aqnd here panna developed through satipatthana. A development, and also zeal plays its part. Perhaps we could say L: "understanding" means "ultimate analysis", distinguishing between > ultimate realities and concepts. N: the beginning, and then it has to develop through all the stages of insight. Exactly how this understanding brings L: I don't understand why sanna (perception) can't > perceive impermanence. N: Yes, it perceives it in its own way, but it is panna which penetrates the true nature of realities. Sanna marks and remembers, arising with each citta. Firm sanna is the proximate cause of satipatthana: you remember what the object of satipatthana is: any nama or rupa that appears. Nina. 23136 From: Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:33am Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi, Dan - I find this post of yours to be not less than superb! In a message dated 6/26/2003 11:03:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, dhd5@c... writes: > > Dear Howard, > I'm a bit out of practice, so please be patient with me if my post > seems clumsy. > > I have a working hypothesis (to use one of Mike's delicious phrases). > Instead of thinking only of Concept vs. Real Reality, it is sometimes > helpful to think of ways of knowing: the inferential or conceptual > (anumana-ñana) and direct knowning (pativedha-ñana). An > example: > Suppose an object is first discerned, then passes away; then, it is > noticed through recollection (and thought): "The object that was > there has passed away." This is an inferential, conceptual > understanding of impermanence. Of course, the realization may well > come quicker than the words, but it is still conceptual knowledge, as > you note so forcefully in your posts. Sometimes when the mind is > sharply concentrated (e.g., as it may be in the course of an > intensive meditation retreat), the comparing of the moment now with > one that just passed may strongly and clearly suggest the > concept "impermanence". Because of the comparing, this too is an > inferential knowing of impermanence, even when it seems crystal clear > to an extent unprecedented in the course of everyday living. As you > also point out, though, the clarity of this conceptual understanding > is helpful and should not be given short shrift. In fact, conceptual > understanding is essential in the development of insight. At the same > time, this very clarity of understanding can be an obstacle if it is > mistakenly taken as direct knowing or insight because it is so very > easy to take it as "my insight" and think "I am really progressing -- > cool!" ------------------------------------ Howard: I am in complete agreement with all you wrote above! ------------------------------------ > > But knowledge of anicca can also arise directly. How so? Objects are > known by their characteristics (lakkhana, rasa, paccupatthana, > padatthana, > or "characteristic", "function", "manifestation", "proximate cause"). > In the example above, the object (paramattha dhamma) may have been > the earth element (experienced as hardness) or a feeling of greed > (experienced as "sticking, as meat sticks to a hot pan") or some > other object. In addition to the familiar, characteristics > like "hardness" and "sticking", the characteristic of "impermanence" > is shared by all paramattha dhammas (except nibbana). Like the other > characteristics, anicca can also be known directly. On that occasion, > anicca is the characteristic that is seen. There is no "hardness" or > inference of "hardness is anicca". There is no "lobha cetasika" or > inference of "lobha cetasika is anicca". For a moment the mind > cognizes simply "anicca". > > But what does the mind see when it sees the characteristic "anicca" > in a single moment? We are so used to thinking about anicca > inferentially that it does not seem possible to understand anicca > *except* inferentially, i.e. by comparing a present moment without an > object to a prior moment when the object was there. However, at a > time when the mind is sufficiently free from attachment, there is no > grasping at characteristics like hardness. "Objects" as we normally > think of them are not cognized. Everywhere the attention turns, > objects slip away before they are grasped, and the mind does not find > a foothold anywhere. "No-foothold" (due to the ephemerality of the > dhammas) is a manifestation of anicca that can be realized directly > without having to resort to the inference: "It was there; now it's > gone. Anicca!" -------------------------------- Howard: I also have thought along the very same lines you provide here. It may be correct. I'm just not certain that not-remaining is knowable during one mind-moment. In fact, during one mind-moment, there is just one object. So, as you say, its non-remaining must be a characteristic of that object, a characteristic observed as a feature of the object. Perhaps that is so, perhaps not. I certainly can imagine that there is some characteristic there which is "responsible" for the object's eventual cessation, and that knowing that characteristic is the direct knowing of anicca. Certainly the grammatical negativity of the word 'anicca' shouldn't throw one off from admitting to the possibility of the existence of such a postive feature that can be directly discerned. I admit that your analysis is a plausible one, and a very good (possibly entirely successful) attempt. When and if either of us gets to the stage that wisdom sees right through to the reality, let us please inform the other! ;-) ------------------------------ > > Dan > > > > Howard: "Sometimes, and this is one of those times, I think that we > give too little credit to concepts. When do we really come > to "directly" see impermanence? I think this happens when the mind is > powerfuly attentive, concentrated, and mindful: An object is > discerned, perhaps through a number of mind-moments, then it is gone, > and then there is the noticing, through recollection (and thought), > that it just had been present, but now is gone - and so, we > "see" > that it has ceased." ==================================== With metta, Howard 23137 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 0:03pm Subject: Re: Quantum Theory is Abhidhamma! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: Hi Friend, While the Abhidhamma may actually say this, those who interpret it for general consumption, especially the Abhidhamma-lovers of this group, don't interpret the Abhidhamma in this way. To their way of thinking, nama and rupa are quite separate and not dependent on each other. They even go so far as to state that the highest insight isn't achieved until one sees the difference between nama and rupa. I have long championed the position you state in this post, that mind creates matter and therefore not really seperate, but I wouldn't say that this position is Abhidhamma. This is modern, scientific thought while the Abhidhamma, as far as I can tell, is based on antiquated, unscientific theories. Metta, James KKT: But the Buddha didn't give a << definite >> answer to the question concerning whether nama and rupa are separate or not? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn09.html [The Buddha:] "Potthapada, all those wanderers are blind and have no eyes. You alone among them have eyes. I have taught and declared some teachings to be definite, and some teachings to be indefinite. And what are the teachings that I have taught and declared to be indefinite? [The statement that] 'The cosmos is eternal' I have taught and declared to be an indefinite teachings. [The statement that] 'The cosmos is not eternal'... 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... 'The soul & the body are the same'... 'The soul is one thing and the body another'... 'After death a Tathagata exists'... 'After death a Tathagata does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist' I have taught and declared to be an indefinite teaching. And why have I taught and declared these teachings to be indefinite? Because they are not conducive to the goal, are not conducive to the Dhamma, are not basic to the holy life. They don't lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That's why I have taught and declared them to be indefinite. Peace, KKT 23138 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 0:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Jon, > Rob K, Jim, Larry, Howard, Nina and others > > Many thanks, Larry, for bringing up this section from the Vis. I > have been following with interest. > > Personally, I still find puzzling the reference to vinnana being > able to 'bring about the penetration of the characteristics of an > object'. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what this refers to > exactly? > > Jon I think Dhammapala is probably the best one to turn to for a solution to this puzzle for he asks a very pertinent question: "But how does vi~n~naa.na bring about the penetration of the characteristics?" and the short answer is: "By way of the path seen by pa~n~naa." but it comes with a detailed explanation which I have only just seen and it is not easy to understand right off the bat. So what I'll do is to first present the passage in Pali below in case anyone would like to see it or figure it out (Nina?) while I do. katha.m pana vi~n~naa.na.m lakkha.napa.tivedha.m paapetii ti? pa~n~naaya dassitamaggena. lakkha.naaramma.nikavipassanaaya hi anekavaara.m lakkha.naani pa.tivijjhitvaa pa.tivijjhitvaa pavattamaanaaya pagu.nabhaavato paricayavasena ~naa.navippayuttacittena pi vipassanaa sambhavati, yathaa ta.m pagu.nassa ganthassa sajjhaayane ~naayaagataa pi vaaraa na vi~n~naayanti. lakkha.napa.tivedhan ti ca lakkha.naana.m aarammanakara.namatta.m sandhaaya vutta.m, na pa.tivijjhana.m. -- Vism-m.t; CSCD 2.75; Rewata ed. pp. 947-8 (both agree) Best wishes, Jim 23139 From: yasalalaka Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 3:05pm Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > wrote: > > > > > I'm sure we can all relate to these patterns to greater or lesser > extents. > > I think that sometimes we have an idea that `we' should be a certain > way, > > eg more equanimous, or that our behaviour patterns should be > different and > > improved from usual. However, wishing they are other than they are > at this > > time will not help us to develop any detachment or acceptance of > what is > > conditioned already. We think the answer is to follow a course of > action > > or to find the right recipe to follow in steps, but these courses of > > action consist of many different phenomena and it is the bhavana > (mental > > development) --and in particular the understanding of these > phenomena -- > > which will help. While we cling to ourselves and to ways of life or > > results we think should be in place, the result is likely to be more > > rather than less anxiety and disturbance I think. > > > > As I mentioned at the start, much of the insight which seems apparent > may > > just be thinking and it helps a lot to be honest enough to see what > > beginners we are. This way there won't be the high expectations that > life, > > with its ups and downs, will be significantly different from usual. The > > attachment to particular results can be a real impediment, I think. In > > your first question to the list, you asked about being `equanimous in all > > situations' and transcending `all worldly attachments'. I think it's > > impossible and useless to try and train ourselves like this. It's bound to > > be an unnatural imitation of the arahants rather than an > understanding and > > acceptance of the present reality and our tendencies and inclinations. > > > > In other words, we have to start at the beginning at the present > moment. > > So please don't be concerned about problems `practising Buddhism'. > Any > > practice should make life easier not harder. Trying to be equanimous > or to > > `extinguish desires' is bound to make life harder and bound to be > > motivated by an idea that a `self' can do this. > > > > I'm not sure if any of these comments are of any help. Please let us > know > > what you think and what further questions or comments you have. > > > > Appreciating your open sharing, > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > ===== > > > > Hi Sarah and others, > > This reply really helps me a lot I think. The idea that I am making life > harder by trying to 'extinguish desires' as a 'self' is something that > makes a lot of sense. Sounds so obvious once you've said it, but > sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees? > > Regarding meditation, my first training in Vipassana meditation was the > 10-day course taught by Goenka. But most places I have gone to since > do the walking and sitting meditation (Goenka's is only sitting). The > other main difference in techniques I see is that Goenka's meditation > focuses on the incoming and outgoing breath through the nose, while > the alternate meditation focuses on the rising and falling of the > abdomen. I was actually recommended Goenka's version as being 'more > scientific'. Does anyone have any advice on which type to practise, is it > bad to learn one then switch to another, or is it best just to find out > which works best for oneself? > > Thanks again for all the replies and comments. > > Chris. ______________________________Yasa_____________________________ Cristie, There are many methods of Meditation, Visuddhumaggha enumerate 40 objects of meditation. Meditation on the in and out breath, keeping the mind on the place on the upper lip just under the nostrils, where the breath touches as it comes in and goes out, is the frequently used object of meditation, which was used by the Buddha himself. The object of meditation on a selected object of meditation is to help the meditator to brings his concentration to a single point. Therefore, the meditator may select what ever method which is convenient to him. Goenka uses the breath for the same purpose, and he also uses a method which is called scanning, letting the mind touch each and every part of the body…It is supposed to be a very effective method for arriving at Samadhi. The method used by the Burmese school, is the concentration on the rising and falling of the abdomen . It is almost the breath meditation , but with the difference of the centre of observation changed to the abdomen. It is best to select a method, which is convenient to you. But once you have started meditation on any one of the methods you hav e selected, you should stick to it, without changing it. It is not a question of whether it is good or bad to change, but a question of getting results. If you constantly change the method you will get nowhere. It is essential, that you have confidence in what you are going to do. I think I have already made a long post on this to you. You do not seem to have read it. When you begin meditation you cannot speak as if you have already seen the ultimate reality. We are trying to make use of the meditation to eventually understand "no-self", which is the centre of all our problems. Therefore, we should start by understanding that a self exists, and we are going to make this "self" understand what "no-self"is. But, if you start off learning Abhidhamma, to do meditation, it would be a mistake. Because it will confuse you. Buddha conceived Abhidhamma,only after his enlightenment. The Buddha meditated on the tranquillity meditation and went to the highest of the jhana absorptions and coming out of it, turned his mind to insight meditation………….. The Buddha's teachings, which he asked us to follow is that which is in the Suttas, -the discourses.Once you have attained a certain level in you meditation practice, it would be a good exercise to understand Abhidhamma, without trying to study it. Meditation gives the mind a clarity to understand any higher Dhamma. Please go to the following website for very good instruction on meditation. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/kee/condensed.html I hope you will get to read this post, With metta, Yasa 23140 From: bodhi2500 Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:16pm Subject: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Howard, Ken, Larry and Dan I have found 2 passages that may be of relevance to the thread. "These modes, (that is, the 3 characteristics) are not included in the aggregates because they are states without individual essence (asabhaava-dhammaa); and they are not separate from the aggregates because they are unapprehendable without the aggregates. But they should be understood as appropriate conceptual differences (pa~n~natti-visesaa) that are reason for differentiation in the explaining of dangers in the five aggregates, and which are allowable by common usage in respect of the five aggregates" < Visuddhimagga Maha Tika (found in the notes on page 747 of Visuddhimagga) And from `Buddhist Analysis of Matter' by Y.Karunadasa. When a rupa-dhamma originates, it is called rupassa jati; when it subsists (decay), it is called rupassa jarata; when it perishes, it is called rupassa aniccata. In addition to the rupa-dhamma which originates, subsists (decay) and perishes, there are no rupa-dhammas answering to the names :rupassa jati, rupassa jarata and rupassa aniccata. If these characteristics, too, were postulated as real entities, then it would be necessary to postulate another set of (secondary) characteristics to account for their own origination, subsistence and cessation. And these (secondary) characteristics would, in turn, require another set of (secondary secondary) characteristics to account for their origination, etc. In this way it would lead to a process ad infinitum. And it is in order to avoid this problem of infinite regress that the characteristics are not recognized as entities distinct from, and as real as, the dhammas which they characterize. This is the significance of the statement made in the Mohavicchedani: "It is not correct to assume that origination originates, decay decays and cessation ceases, because such an assumption leads to the (fallacy) of infinite regress(anava.t.thaana)" My understanding is the Paramattha Dhammas are dhammas with their own individual essence. If the characteristic are without individual essence, then not being Paramattha Dhammas, can the characteristics ie.impermanance be a direct object of Satipatthana? Steve --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Howard: > >"Sometimes, and this is one of those times, I think that we > > give too little credit to concepts. When do we really come > > to "directly" see impermanence? I think this happens when the mind is > > powerfuly attentive, concentrated, and mindful: An object is > > discerned, perhaps through a number of mind-moments, then it is gone, > > and then there is the noticing, through recollection (and thought), > > that it just had been present, but now is gone - and so, we > > "see" > > that it has ceased." > ==================================== > With metta, > Howard 23141 From: suzakico Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 11:20am Subject: To add on...to the question to Nina To add to my question, here is a song by Shido-Bunan - a Japanese zen monk: "Without our own self, the one who does the seeing, hearing, and sensing to realize what is going on, this is called the living Buddha" Does this not convey the point - in a way? May all beings be happy! Kio 23142 From: suzakico Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 11:14am Subject: Inquiry to Nina... As I am just stopping by, I am hopeful not to disturb the flow of the discussion going on here. But as I read the book, A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas perhaps for 4-5 hours worth and 1/3 of it so far, I came back with a question that I appreciate it very much if you can address for me as much as you must have gained great benefit from the book and the interaction with Sujin. Anyway, here is my question: Why is it so necessary to analyze the mind and body phenomena in the way suggested, i.e., dividing by various terms to distinguish them in detail? (This book points out 16 levels of vipassana nana (knowledge). 89-129 types of consciousness (citta), 52 types of mental factor, 28 types of physical phenomenon, etc.) At least for me, this is too cumbersome and makes me feels like losing the holistic picture although this ?gmay?h be beneficial for specifically focused training. (My sense however is that even the training/meditation may be too complex.) Furthermore at least from reading the sutta, it appears that the Buddha never went into such a detail. I realize that once interested and realized the benefit, we may want to explore to the detail and find the joy in such exploration. I just want to get your personal feedback on this concern. By the way, I have some vipassana and Zen background as shown in www.suzaki.has.it . Personally, Zen appeals to me because of its directness. However, without biased/constrained by my background, I would like to not to miss the opportunity to learn from your experience, if you may. With metta, Kio 23143 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Dear Larry, > Hi Jim and Nina, > > Thanks for your additional considerations. I would be interested in any > other info or reasoning you come up with concerning the usage of > "endeavour" in this paragraph. Is there a sub-commentary? > > Larry I think of .tiikaa-s as being subcommentaries and the Paramatthama~njuusaa (Pm or Vism-mh.t) which ~Naa.namoli often gives translations of certain passages from in his footnotes is also called the Mahaa.tiikaa. And I consider the Visuddhimagga to be a commentary on the two verses from the Sa.myuttanikaaya (S I 13) found at the beginning of Vism. From looking at the CPD bibliography there doesn't appear to be a subcommentary on Pm but there are listed 6 other commentaries on Vism, none of which I have seen or have access to. I have already posted further comments on ussakkitvaa. I have been questioning whether "by endeavouring" is the right translation as it appears that ussakkitvaa can be derived from two different roots with different meanings. What remains to be done is to determine which root applies to our "ussakkitvaa". Best wishes, Jim 23144 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:52pm Subject: Metta as Perfection, Brahma Viharas Dear Friends, I have been corresponding with a dhamma friend recently about why Metta is a perfection, but Karuna (compassion) and mudita (sympathetic joy) aren't. If we all remember, the perfections are the qualities that need to be developed in order to cross to the other side (nibbana). K. Sujin said the following in her lecture on perfection (this is my translation: please wait for Nina's for the official version!): We should consider why Metta & Upekkha are perfections, but Karuna and Mudita aren't Because we don't have the same level of wisdom as the Buddha, we don't see that all beings are suffering because of birth, aging, sickness, and death. Everything is impermanent, arising, and then falling away, which is the first truth, the truth of suffering. This is true suffering, but nobody sees this truth. Therefore, in our daily life, if we don't see beings as suffering, we should have metta. Therefore, Metta and Upekkha are perfections. Here are my additions (at your own peril!): It makes sense to me how it was explained. Metta can occur whenever we think of beings. But as we don't often see being likes the Bodhisatta (that there are suffering for all beings), compassion cannot arise as often as metta. I think about other people constantly, but I don't think of them as suffering, even if they are, because I do not yet see the true suffering. By thinking of beings kindly, the cittas are less inclined toward the akusala states, and more inclined toward developing other kusala states (including dana, sila, and bhavana) because all these states contribute to the happiness of others and oneself: the cittas are inclined toward all levels of the abhaya, of non-harming. I guess for me, even for somebody like me who works in a situation where I don't have to come in contact with many people, I think about people constantly. All these thinkings are all opportunities to develop metta. On the other hand, I don't think about suffering people, or people receiving their good results (of good deeds) as often. Although both happen, but still, the opportunities to develop metta (when you think of other beings, neither suffering, nor enjoying the results of their good deeds) far more outstrip everything else. If you get here, please do let me know if you disagree. Other feedbacks are welcomed too! kom 23145 From: Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 7:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Jim, Thanks for the info on commentaries and subcommentaries. I was wondering if you could shed some light on the word that is translated as "penetrate" in this paragraph. This might go toward answering Jon's question on how consciousness can penetrate an object's characteristics. Seemingly sanna can recognize impermanence, consciousness can cognize impermanence, and panna can understand impermanence, but only consciousness and panna can penetrate impermanence and only panna can develop this penetration to a path moment. So what's with penetration? I'm getting a much better idea of what "endeavour" is all about. When you are satisfied, would you give us an expanded translation with notes? Larry 23146 From: Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 7:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta as Perfection, Brahma Viharas Hi Kom, I think metta as perfection includes karuna and mudita. Just a thought. Larry 23147 From: Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:29pm Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Steve, I agree these things are puzzling and don't seem to be resolvable, but I think KKT found the answer: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn09.html "But why hasn't the Blessed One expounded these things?" "Because they are not conducive to the goal, are not conducive to the Dhamma, are not basic to the holy life. They don't lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That's why I haven't expounded them." "And what has the Blessed One expounded?" "I have expounded that, 'This is stress'... 'This is the origination of stress'... 'This is the cessation of stress'... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' "And why has the Blessed One expounded these things?" "Because they are conducive to the goal, conducive to the Dhamma, and basic to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That's why I have expounded them." Larry 23148 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, other options. Dear Jim, right, progress is better. Seems more a natural growth (with the right conditions) and development stage by stage. Nina. op 26-06-2003 15:52 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > The > CPD has two separate entries for "ussakkati" based on two different > roots. Cone seems to be following the first one with "to creep out, or > up to, rise" whereas PED is mostly following the second one with "to > endeavour, strive, etc.". I find the first and Cone's meanings (eg. to > progress) to be more acceptable and fitting here. 23149 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:59pm Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Dear Dan, good to see you back. Thank you for your well-written post. I just have a remark. op 26-06-2003 18:03 schreef Dan D. op dhd5@c...: > "Objects" as we normally > think of them are not cognized. Everywhere the attention turns, > objects slip away before they are grasped, and the mind does not find > a foothold anywhere. "No-foothold" (due to the ephemerality of the > dhammas) is a manifestation of anicca that can be realized directly > without having to resort to the inference: "It was there; now it's > gone. Anicca!" N: As I understand, anicca is anicca *of* a nama or rupa. And the understanding of this characterstic can only arise after several stages of tender insight have been developed: distinguishing nama from rupa very clearly not just by thinking, knowing them as conditioned realities, not just by thinking. But you probably take this into account also. You just want to point out that understanding understands without words. Thank you, Nina. 23150 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, citta knows Dear Jon, I hope you have also a real vacation, doing nothing! I am always delighted to hear from you when you are at airports or in bars. Do you do day hikes, or longer treks? See below. op 26-06-2003 13:25 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Personally, I still find puzzling the reference to vinnana being able > to 'bring about the penetration of the characteristics of an object'. > Does anyone have any suggestions as to what this refers to exactly? N: It depends how we read this. Not in the same way as panna. Citta knows colour, sound, etc. but it is panna that understands them as non-self. Thus, as it is said in the Co: citta clearly knows an object (ru cheng in Thai). Citta knows real diamants but also knows when they are fakes. It knows barking of a dog, but also when you are imitating the barking, remember from Survey? Nina. 23151 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 4:29am Subject: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Dear Nina, Howard, Steve, Larry, I think you are right in each of your comments, Nina, and of course there is confirmation in the texts: 1. Anicca must be anicca "of" a nama or rupa. As found in Paramattha- mañjusa 825 (XXI, n. 4 in Ñanamoli's "Path of purification"): "These modes, [that is, the three characteristics,] are not included in the aggregates becasue they are states without individual essensce, and they are not separate from the aggreagates because they are unapprehendable wihout the aggregates." 2. Distinct direct understanding of anicca may arise in the stage of insight called "conformity knowledge", as discussed in Abhidhammatha Sangaha (IX, 34, B. Bodhi trans.): "When he thus practices contemplation, owing to the ripening of insight (he feels), 'Now the absorption (of the path) will arise.' Thereupon, arresting the life- continuum, there arises mind-door adverting, followed by two or three (moments of) insight consciousness (vipassanacittani) having for their object any of the characteristics such as impermanence, etc." This is "conformity knowledge", which is the final flashes of insight before supramundane path consciousness. 3. Clear understanding of anicca may also arise in the stage called "equanimity about formations", as suggested by Vism. (XXI, 66): "Now after discerning formations in the various modes,... he still persists in in the triple contemplation." I understand these "modes" and "triple contemplation" as referring to the tilakkhana as aspects of formations. 4. Is that "clear" understanding "direct" in the "one moment" sense I described in the earlier post? Both direct and inferential knowledge arise, I believe. The formations are seen "as limited by rise and fall and circumscribed by them; for contemplation of impermanence limits them thus, 'formations do not exist previous to their rise.'" [Vism. XXI, 68]. This sounds like inferential knowledge. However, thinking about it in the context of bhavanga-ñana, wherein the only aspect of objects that is discerned is their dissolution ("Once his knowledge works keely and formations quickly become apparent, he no longer extends his mindfulness to their arising or presence or occurrence or sign, but brings it to bear only on their cessation as destruction, fall, and breakup." [Vism. XXI, 10]), it becomes apparent that the awareness of objects is not via the manifestation of sign or occurrence (such as cognizing "hardness"), but by their dissolution, i.e. the only characteristic that is observed is the dissolution. This cannot be understanding via "the object was here and now it is gone" because the sign or occurrence of the object was never apprehended. As Vism. XXI, 15 says, "Dissolution is the culminating point of impermanence, and so the meditator contemplating dissolution contemplates the whole field of formations as impermanent, not as impermanent." Pm. 827 elaborates further (Path of purification, XXI, n. 8): "'He contemplates as impermanent' here not by inferential knowledge thus 'Impermanent in the sense of dissolution', like one who is comprehending formations by groups, nor by seeing fall preceded by apprehension of rise, like a beginner of insight; but rather it is after rise and fall have become apparent as actual experience through the influence of knowledge of rise and fall that he then leaves rise aside in the way stated and contemplates formations as impermanent by seeing only their dissolution. But when he sees them thus, there is no trace in him of any apprehension of them as permanent." 5. The direct understanding of anicca only comes in the advanced stages of insight (i.e., after namarupaparecchedañana and knowledge of rise and fall), as discussed Samohavinodani (Dispeller of delusion, §243): "...the characteristic of impermanence does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating rise and fall owing to its being concealed by continuity (santati)...But when continuity is dissected by laying hold of rise and fall, the characteristic of impermanence appears in accordance with its true essential nature." So, only when the sense of continuity of consciousness is shattered with knowledge of rise and fall is anicca possible to see directly. The Pm. quote above implies (and I would agree) that the understanding would be inferential until the only characteristic apprehended is dissolution, i.e. direct understanding of anicca does not arise prior to bhavanga-ñana. 6. The real understanding arises without dependence on words. In fact, it arises more rapidly and more penetratingly than words. The words come only as an after thought. Dan 23152 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:46am Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Dan, Pretty clumsy, all right(!). Actually well-written, I thought--I think you're on the right track. Interestingly, I just ran across this yesterday in Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary: anicca-saññaa 'perception of impermanence', is defined in the Girimananda Sutta (A.X. 60) as meditation on the impermanence of the five groups of existence. "Though, with a faithful heart, one takes refuge in the Buddha, his Teaching and the Community of Monks; or with a faithful heart observes the rules of morality, or develops a mind full of loving-kindness, far more meritorious it is if one cultivates the perception of impermanence, be it only for a moment" (A.X. 20). See A.VI. 102; A.VII. 48; Ud.IV. 1; S.22. 102. I woke up thinking about this this morning and then read your post. Small world! It doesn't exactly address the issue you and Howard were discussing but I thought it seemed pertinent enough to post. It occurs to me that if he were referring only to thinking about the concept of impermanence, the Buddha would not likely have called it more meritorious than taking refuge, observing sila or developing mettaa. So I'm guessing he's talking about direct, rather than conceptual, insight--what do you think? (By the way, both are good and necessary, I think). Hope we can look forward to seeing more of your correspondence. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan D. To: Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 9:03 AM Subject: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 23153 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Again Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:04 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 L: I don't understand why sanna (perception) can't > perceive impermanence. N: Yes, it perceives it in its own way, but it is panna which penetrates the true nature of realities. Sanna marks and remembers, arising with each citta. Firm sanna is the proximate cause of satipatthana: you remember what the object of satipatthana is: any nama or rupa that appears. Wonderful, thanks--I had forgotten (if I knew) that 'sanna is the proximate cause of satipatthana'--is this from Atthasaalinii(sp?), or...? mike 23154 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:06am Subject: Concepts and Characteristics [Mike] Hi Mike, Long time no see! It's good to see you back on the list after a lengthy absense. [Of course, I've been absent from the list for some time as well, so I don't even know how long you've been around this time...] I like your passage from Nyanatiloka and Anguttara. I'd say that "meditation on the impermanence..." sounds ambiguous. Is it direct knowledge or inferential? Either is beneficial, but I agree that the Buddha must be referring to direct knowledge of anicca in the passage from AN. In conventional, non-Buddhist thinking, wouldn't it sound very peculiar to say: "Though, with a faithful heart, one ... develops a mind full of loving-kindness, far more meritorious it is if one cultivates the perception of impermanence, be it only for a moment"? How can you explain such a strange notion? Dan P.S. Have you looked up the other references that Nyanatiloka lists? > in Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary: > > anicca-saññaa > > 'perception of impermanence', is defined in the Girimananda Sutta (A.X. 60) > as meditation on the impermanence of the five groups of existence. > > "Though, with a faithful heart, one takes refuge in the Buddha, his Teaching > and the Community of Monks; or with a faithful heart observes the rules of > morality, or develops a mind full of loving-kindness, far more meritorious > it is if one cultivates the perception of impermanence, be it only for a > moment" (A.X. 20). > > See A.VI. 102; A.VII. 48; Ud.IV. 1; S.22. 102. 23155 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:30am Subject: Re: Quantum Theory is Abhidhamma! Dear James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > group, don't interpret the Abhidhamma in this way. To their way of > thinking, nama and rupa are quite separate and not dependent on each > other. They even go so far as to state that the highest insight > isn't achieved until one sees the difference between nama and rupa. Not at all. There are nama that are dependent on rupa, and there are nama that are not dependent on rupa. There are rupas that are dependent on nama, and there are rupas that are not dependent on nama. The first stage of insight is the distinction of nama and rupa (nama-rupa- paricheta-nana). The reasoning given is that without this stage of insight, the person still holds dear all the khandas (nama & rupa) as being truly theirs (thinking that they are not don't really count). The first stage of insight gives the indisputable prove (to the person) that in our daily experiences, there are nothing beyond the nama and rupa (nothing beyond the dhamma). Anattaness becomes obvious for the very first time. We study the dhamma because it helps us understand the current moment better (and not just by way of thinking about the dhamma and the stories that we have heard). Any studying that is toward this goal is the highest blessing of the Buddha dhamma. Without the teaching, the path, mundane or supramundane, is impossible. The Buddha's teaching is verifiable, dependent on the wisdom of the person, and those that cannot be verified are to us just the best working theory. Being most respectful of the teacher of the abhidhamma, I would urge my dhamma friends to study it the same way as any other teachings we think as the buddha's. We should verify with the sources (and in Theravadan tradition, all 3 tipitikas with the ancient commentaries), but ultimately, the teachings must match the truth. kom 23156 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:31am Subject: RE: [dsg] Metta as Perfection, Brahma Viharas Hi Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 7:33 PM > > Hi Kom, > > I think metta as perfection includes karuna and > mudita. Just a thought. > Why do you say so? kom 23157 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 8:02am Subject: Paramatha (realities) & Pannatti (concepts) Dear Dave, As Sarah is going away for two weeks, she has asked me to continue with this discussion. I am not Sarah, so you will have to be patient with me... I would like to write about what your wrote to Sarah one topic at a time; otherwise, the email will be really long-winded. > -----Original Message----- > From: dwlemen [mailto:dwlemen@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 8:39 AM > > S: Difficult questions as I said! Let's take > the moon. When we look > at it, > > what' s seen? Visible object. If we step on it, > what's felt? > Hardness. It > > isn't that all visible objects are uniform in > nature (apart from > being > > visible objects). If that were so, nothing > would ever be identified > and we > > couldn't survive. So if we look at the moon and > there's awareness, > there's > > no idea of it being a thing or a moon, but > what is seen and the > > particular visible appearance are just as > they've always been and > > immediately there are conditions to know it as > a moon, even for a > baby or > > animal without any names or developed > associations. If someone else > looks > > at the moon at the same time, the visible > object won't be the same, > but > > there will be enough in common in 'what is > seen' for similar > concepts and > > identifications to be made. > > DAVE: > I still am not understanding if you are saying > that there is really > no such thing as the moon or not. When you say > "immediately there > are conditions to know it as a moon" what do you > mean? Are you > referring to, perhaps, the difference between > what the eye takes in > (light, color, motion, etc.) and what the brain > then attributes those > lights, colors, etc. to be before sending to the > mind? If that is > the distinction (what the eye takes in, vs. what > the mind knows) then > I can understand, although I still think that > there would be the > moon, that exists independently of observation, > or understanding. > The abhidhamma (and not as explicitly, the sutta) teaches us this, that the objects that the mind cognizes can be separated into two different types: ultimate realities (paramatha dhamma), and concepts (pannatti). Ultimate realities have distinct characteristics, different from other ultimate realities, whereas pannatti has no characteristics at all, and is considered to be non-existent. Take hardness for example. Hardness is a reality. When we come into a dark unfamiliar room, not really seeing, we hit something hard. The hardness appears to the mind. But since the mind doesn't have enough information to form elaborate concepts of what just appeared, we don't know if it is a table, a wall, or other objects. This is how our interactions with our environments mostly work. First ultimate realities appear to the mind, then the mind forms a mental construct (concept, pannatti) about what has just appeared, but this concept doesn't have any characteristics --- only the ultimate realities do. Think about a person. Does a person have a directly experienceable characteristic? We can only directly experience the visible object, the sound, the smell, the touch, and the mind that thinks of the person. The existence of a person, the formation of concepts, are dependent on thinking about what directly appears. Do you ever have the experience where the ultimate realities appear, but yet you don't know what the object is? For example, sitting on a fast moving train, I know that I see, but I don't know what I see. Ultimate reality already appears (visible object), but the mind doesn't have enough direct experiences or opportunities to form a concept around what appears. Going back to the moon and the cheese. What actually happens when we say we see the moon? We only directly experience the visible object, but then we think about what we sees. The only thing that is absolutely provable at the point of seeing is that the visible objects exists, and the seeing mind exists --- every thing else is not proven to us. We then think about what directly appears, and form a concept of the moon. So, from the characteristics of realities perspective, only visible object exists, but not the moon. We may ask ourselves, that this may be so, but does the real moon really exist? If we think about the teachings that all phenomena rise, but they must fall away. What is then the moon? The visible object (that we form concept of being the moon), is it the same today as it was yesterday? How about seeing the moon outside in the clear sky, and the moon in the picture. What are the differences? BTW, pannatti means (I think) mark to make known the object, mark to help carry meanings of the object. Without pannatti, meaning cannot be known. kom 23158 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 8:37am Subject: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Dave, You must be a computer guy... My kind of people ;-). > -----Original Message----- > From: dwlemen [mailto:dwlemen@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 8:39 AM > > S: I can see you'd get on well with RobM with > your analogies - > basically, > > different moments as you suggested in a snipped > part. It seems it's > all > > happening at the same time, but hearing and > listening (paying > attention) > > and thinking don't arise at the same moment. > When there's a moment > of > > awareness of one reality, such as hearing or > sound, it's clear that > > there's no other impingement or idea associated with it. > > ..... > > DAVE: It still sounds like you are talking about > conscious awareness > being single threaded. And, I can buy that, > however, I do think that > the brain is taking in the other inputs. So, > while I'm focused on > seeing the screen, my brain is still absorbing > the sounds, smell, > feelings, and thoughts. If something comes up > that requires focus, > my attention to the screen is interrupted by the > other input. > > I don't know if what I'm tyring to say/think is > Buddhist or not > (haven't learned nearly enough to make such a > call). But, it does > seem to me that, by and large, we are running on > "auto-pilot" and our > consciousness is just along for the ride, but, > because of ego, it > thinks it is running the ship, so to speak. But, > in this process of > my own attempts for understanding, I do want to > know how things work > from a Buddhist standpoint. From some of the > things I've learned so > far, I've been amazed at how Buddhism not only > "matches" what I have > been trying to formulate on my own, but in most > cases, as I've better > understood Buddhism, I've found that it even > better explains it than > I was able to before. > In the model given in the abhidhamma, the mind experiences one object at a time. When we see, we don't hear. When we think about what we see or what we hear, we neither see nor hear. This maybe contradictory (to some people) to our experiences: this is only because the minds rise and fall away so extremely rapidly that it seems that the hearing and the seeing happen at the same time. The Buddha didn't teach about the interaction of the brains and the sense input, so we stay mostly off this topic. It is not taught, and probably is not essential to attaining nibbana... All ultimate realities are conditioned. They cannot rise without causes, and they must rise when the causes are complete. This is how the mind works. When there are conditions for seeing, seeing must occur. When there are conditions for thinking, thinking must occur. However, not knowing the conditionalities of all things, we have the idea (gross, subtle, or very subtle) that "we" make or will these things to happen. You can move your hands, no? How does that happen? Is it you or there are conditions for the hand to be moved? Do we ever have the situations when we want things happen a certain way, but things go other way anyway? The mind cannot rise without causes, and they must rise when the causes are complete. The mind rises one at a time, conditioned by all other conditioning realities. The Buddha teaching is truly marvelous and amazing. I know no other person who gives teachings that are so true, conceptually and ultimately, on all the different topics (that I can see for myself). The teaching brings knowledge. With knowledge, we can begin to truly turn away from ignorance and wrong-understanding, and eventually from attachment and grief. That is the miracle of the Buddha's teaching. kom 23159 From: Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 9:02am Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi, Dan and all - Just a comment on my personal belief. It seems to me that our physical sense discernments (acts of vi~n~nana via the 5 physical sense doors) are already without error, and that ignorance is expressed only through the mind door. To me, vijja is avijja minus the defilements. To me, sa~n~na cleared of the defilements is pa~n~na. To me, there is no problem with the conceptual faculty per se, but only with the conceptual faculty infected by defilement. I do not think that that the only things that are "real" occur at single mind moments. Specifically, many relations that are quite "real" transcend individual mind moments. To me, seeing directly, with filters of ignorance removed, is the essence of wisdom, and not just seeing only what occurs withina single mind moment. So here, I guess, is where I find problems with Abhidhamma as I understand it. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/27/2003 6:29:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, dhd5@c... writes: > > Dear Nina, Howard, Steve, Larry, > I think you are right in each of your comments, Nina, and of course > there is confirmation in the texts: > > 1. Anicca must be anicca "of" a nama or rupa. As found in Paramattha- > mañjusa 825 (XXI, n. 4 in Ñanamoli's "Path of purification"): "These > modes, [that is, the three characteristics,] are not included in the > aggregates becasue they are states without individual essensce, and > they are not separate from the aggreagates because they are > unapprehendable wihout the aggregates." > > 2. Distinct direct understanding of anicca may arise in the stage of > insight called "conformity knowledge", as discussed in Abhidhammatha > Sangaha (IX, 34, B. Bodhi trans.): "When he thus practices > contemplation, owing to the ripening of insight (he feels), 'Now the > absorption (of the path) will arise.' Thereupon, arresting the life- > continuum, there arises mind-door adverting, followed by two or three > (moments of) insight consciousness (vipassanacittani) having for > their object any of the characteristics such as impermanence, etc." > This is "conformity knowledge", which is the final flashes of insight > before supramundane path consciousness. > > 3. Clear understanding of anicca may also arise in the stage > called "equanimity about formations", as suggested by Vism. (XXI, > 66): "Now after discerning formations in the various modes,... he > still persists in in the triple contemplation." I understand > these "modes" and "triple contemplation" as referring to the > tilakkhana as aspects of formations. > > 4. Is that "clear" understanding "direct" in the "one moment" sense I > described in the earlier post? Both direct and inferential knowledge > arise, I believe. The formations are seen "as limited by rise and > fall and circumscribed by them; for contemplation of impermanence > limits them thus, 'formations do not exist previous to their rise.'" > [Vism. XXI, 68]. This sounds like inferential knowledge. However, > thinking about it in the context of bhavanga-ñana, wherein the only > aspect of objects that is discerned is their dissolution ("Once his > knowledge works keely and formations quickly become apparent, he no > longer extends his mindfulness to their arising or presence or > occurrence or sign, but brings it to bear only on their cessation as > destruction, fall, and breakup." [Vism. XXI, 10]), it becomes > apparent that the awareness of objects is not via the manifestation > of sign or occurrence (such as cognizing "hardness"), but by their > dissolution, i.e. the only characteristic that is observed is the > dissolution. This cannot be understanding via "the object was here > and now it is gone" because the sign or occurrence of the object was > never apprehended. As Vism. XXI, 15 says, "Dissolution is the > culminating point of impermanence, and so the meditator contemplating > dissolution contemplates the whole field of formations as > impermanent, not as impermanent." Pm. 827 elaborates further (Path of > purification, XXI, n. 8): "'He contemplates as impermanent' here not > by inferential knowledge thus 'Impermanent in the sense of > dissolution', like one who is comprehending formations by groups, nor > by seeing fall preceded by apprehension of rise, like a beginner of > insight; but rather it is after rise and fall have become apparent as > actual experience through the influence of knowledge of rise and fall > that he then leaves rise aside in the way stated and contemplates > formations as impermanent by seeing only their dissolution. But when > he sees them thus, there is no trace in him of any apprehension of > them as permanent." > > 5. The direct understanding of anicca only comes in the advanced > stages of insight (i.e., after namarupaparecchedañana and knowledge > of rise and fall), as discussed Samohavinodani (Dispeller of > delusion, §243): "...the characteristic of impermanence does not > appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating rise and fall > owing to its being concealed by continuity (santati)...But when > continuity is dissected by laying hold of rise and fall, the > characteristic of impermanence appears in accordance with its true > essential nature." So, only when the sense of continuity of > consciousness is shattered with knowledge of rise and fall is anicca > possible to see directly. The Pm. quote above implies (and I would > agree) that the understanding would be inferential until the only > characteristic apprehended is dissolution, i.e. direct understanding > of anicca does not arise prior to bhavanga-ñana. > > 6. The real understanding arises without dependence on words. In > fact, it arises more rapidly and more penetratingly than > words. The > words come only as an after thought. > > Dan 23160 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inquiry to Nina... Kiosan, O Genki desu ka? I hope you will stay here, not just passing. Welcome. I appreciate your interest in Survey. See below. op 26-06-2003 20:14 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: But as I read the book, A Survey of > Paramattha Dhammas perhaps for 4-5 hours worth and 1/3 of it so far, > I came back with a question that I appreciate it very much if you > can address for me as much as you must have gained great benefit > from the book and the interaction with Sujin. Nina: This is not a book one can read quickly. It is good to start looking up items that you are interested in. Under Samatha: a careful explanation of what meditation is, the difference between samatha and vipassana. Under Realities and Concepts: what are ultimate realities, paramattha dhammas, which are actually the objects of vipassana. The last chapter: about vipassana in daily life. Suzakico: Why is it so necessary to analyze the mind and body phenomena in the > way suggested, i.e., dividing by various terms to distinguish them > in detail? (This book points out 16 levels of vipassana nana > (knowledge). 89-129 types of consciousness (citta), 52 types of > mental factor, 28 types of physical phenomenon, etc.) At least for > me, this is too cumbersome... N: Good question. We need you here on dsg. My experience: more than thirty years ago I lived in Thailand and went straight to A. Sujin, just asking questions. I listened in the morning to her radio programs in Thai, and in this way slowly I became used to the different types of citta, consciousness. It depends on the individual's interest how much details he is interested in, there is no rule. Do not cumber yourself. Some basic knowledge about different cittas , rupas, processes of cittas are beneficial, a good foundation for vipassana. But it is best to start in a very simple way: starting from this moment. Is there no seeing? We have a feeling of self who sees, but is this the truth? After seeing you become attached to what you see, or you have aversion. Are these moments not real? These are properties (cetasikas) arising with types of citta different from seeing. Seeing sees visible object, just what aoppears through the eyes. Visible object is not a person or thing, those are concepts we think of. This thinking is conditioned by association of different experiences that are remembered. Visible object is rupa. So long as we do not distinguish nama from rupa, we cling to a whole, we cling to self. Gradually you learn that cittas are conditioned, conditioned by past experiences, by accumulated inclinations. You experience praise and blame, gain and loss, and these do not stay, they are beyond control. They are conditioned realities. You may come to know that the understanding of different moments is helpful for you personally, in daily life. The aim of learning more about different realities is detachment. First detachment from the idea of self, and later on from all objects (for the arahat). In the Survey it is helpful to read about citta, so that we come to know: if there were no citta, nothing would appear: no seeing, no thinking. All our experiences we find so important are merely different cittas which arise and then fall away very rapidly. Nobody can hold them or slow them down. Nobody can direct different cittas arising in processes in a particular order. A. Sujin helped me to understand simple realities like seeing, hearing, all experiences of objects through six doors. And this is in complete conformity with the suttas. Read for example Kindred Sayings IV. In the course of all these years my interest in details was growing, but this should come naturally, no forcing to absorb all at once. And then: we should know that intellectual understanding, though a foundation, is not direct understanding, vipassana, which is actually the development of right understanding of the eightfold Path. Understanding of the reality, nama or rupa, appearing at the present moment (ima, I liked that kanji). No spectacular progress, andt it is subtle clinging if we wish for that. A. Sujin is most helpful to make us see subtle clinging. I needed many journeys with her and friends to discover that. In the course of years we went in a group of friends to India, and I visited Thailand many times. We have aeons of clinging and ignorance behind us, how can this all be over in a moment? I am just grateful that I was enabled to discover for myself: this is the right Path, and it works. At least I can begin to develop it. But the more we learn, the more we realize: we are at the level of Kindergarten. In the beginning I was at times impatient, but now I am grateful for every little bit of understanding I gain. Also the discussions here in this list help me. S: and makes me feels like losing the > holistic picture although this ?gmay?h be beneficial for > specifically focused training. (My sense however is that even the > training/meditation may be too complex.) N: It is not a matter of focussed training, that would make you cling to a self who can focus. The aim is detachment. Let realities come as they are, and when there are conditions for understanding it will arise without you interfering. The conditions are: association with a good friend in Dhamma, listening and study, wise attention, practice in accordance with what you learnt. S: Furthermore at least from > reading the sutta, it appears that the Buddha never went into such a > detail. N: Also the Abhidhamma is part of the Tipitaka, rehearsed at the first Council. See Useful Posts in the archives under Abhidhamma. In the suttas there are many details about cittas, but in Abh there are more details. If you doubt about Abhidhamma: it is mentioned also in the Vinaya. I hope Christine can help you with useful links, also to "Manual of Abhidhamma" which is good for a start. My book (on line) Buddhism in Daily Life is being translated into Japanese, Rob. K. may tell you more, he lives in Japan. I lived there many years ago, but forgot the language. I found Kanji very suitable for expressing realities, but I forgot it. S: By the way, I have some vipassana and Zen background as shown in > www.suzaki.has.it . Personally, Zen appeals to me because of its > directness. N: When in Japan, I found that there are so many Zen sects. Suzuki became popular in the West (I read some of his books) and now people think that all Zen is only that type. We have to distinguish different types. Vipassana appeals to me because I find it very direct, about simple realities in daily life. It helps me to understand my daily life. But no promise of a quick result, and that is very realistic. Nina. 23161 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, homework Dear Jim, interesting homework. Next week I have more time to look at it, Nina op 26-06-2003 21:04 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > "By way of the path seen by pa~n~naa." but it > comes with a detailed explanation which I have only just seen and it > is not easy to understand right off the bat. So what I'll do is to > first present the passage in Pali below in case anyone would like to > see it or figure it out (Nina?) while I do. 23162 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation etc. , brahmaviharas. Dear Kom, I delayed reacting, but I appreciated your post very much. op 20-06-2003 20:36 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: Kom quoted: N:I have been reflecting about something Kom wrote: >> Visakha who was >> a sotapanna enjoyed her grandchildren and jewelry. We cannot expect to be >> without lobha now. I often take this as an excuse and forget that Visakha >> could enjoy with wisdom, being mindful of lobha too. > Kom: The other favorite excuse that I have is hey, these are all by conditions! > But then, we can learn for ourselves if these are reflections are with > attachment or with wisdom. Can we prevent these reflections? It already > happened! N: Usually with attachment, good to be reminded that also such reflection are by conditions, beyond control. I should tell Kio that by vipassana we learn to be more sincere with regard to ourselves. K: I think reflection on the truths are very helpful to me, especially when > panna that really sees the impermanence of all things seem so far away, and > sati that sees dhamma as dhamma rises so rarely. As long as I understand > that thinking is not the path (but is supportive of the path), and hence, > there should be an urgency to see truth as it is, then thinking too can be > the object of sati. Samatha should be developed too, although we should > truly know that it is not the path. > > Reflections on the dhamma brings peace in daily life for me too. (snip) Reflections on the dhamma come > because of one's accumulations which are conditioned by hearing, studying, > and association with the wise. N: I also like your post on the brahmaviharas. N: It is good to be reminded to think with metta, also when we do not meet people often. Yes, it is more with metta than with compassion, true compassion realizes the real dukkha, difficult for us, ordinary beings. But when we actually meet others, it is more difficult to have true metta. Just thinking with metta seems easier, we are less disturbed. But oh, when someone else says something unpleasant! Thanking you for your posts, anumodana, Nina. 23163 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 11:45am Subject: RE: [dsg] Inquiry to Nina... Dear Nina & Kiosan, > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 10:25 AM > N: It is not a matter of focussed training, that would make you cling to a > self who can focus. The aim is detachment. Let realities come as they are, > and when there are conditions for understanding it will arise without you > interfering. The conditions are: association with a good friend in Dhamma, > listening and study, wise attention, practice in accordance with what you > learnt. It is always so helpful to hear about this. Whenever I feel like, hey I should do something more, then I remember about the suttas that the Buddha taught, that his teachings lead to knowledge, comprehension, detachment, enlightenment, and nibbana: whatever else that do not lead to those are not his teachings. Does our "practice" lead to knowledge, comprehension, and detachment? If it leads to the attachment of self, of one who could do, of particular practices / postures and deeds, those too are not the teaching of the Buddha. We should be honest to ourselves (at least!) and know it truly: why do I do what I do? Is it attachment, or is it wisdom? kom 23164 From: Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 4:16pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Metta as Perfection, Brahma Viharas Hi Kom, Larry: I think metta as perfection includes karuna and mudita. Just a thought. Kom: Why do you say so? Larry: Because karuna and mudita seem so indisputably good. Maybe we could say kindness is the expression of compassion and joy. When we see the suffering of people and see their inner beauty we can't help but be kind to them. Larry 23165 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Dear Larry, > Hi Jim, > > Thanks for the info on commentaries and subcommentaries. I was wondering > if you could shed some light on the word that is translated as > "penetrate" in this paragraph. This might go toward answering Jon's > question on how consciousness can penetrate an object's characteristics. > Seemingly sanna can recognize impermanence, consciousness can cognize > impermanence, and panna can understand impermanence, but only > consciousness and panna can penetrate impermanence and only panna can > develop this penetration to a path moment. So what's with penetration? The Pali word for penetration is pa.tivedha and the verb is pa.tivijjhati. These words are familiar to me as they crop up occasionally but I really don't know much. I think pa.tivedha (also adhigama) is the last part of the three that constitute the saasana, the first two being pariyatti (theoretical study) and pa.tipatti (practice). I would have thought that only pa~n~na could bring about penetration. So it'll be interesting to find out how vi~n~naa.na does it and what are its levels of attainments. Pa.tivedha is a major word and a whole other topic to explore and it seems likely that it is treated in some detail in the Pali texts. > I'm getting a much better idea of what "endeavour" is all about. When > you are satisfied, would you give us an expanded translation with notes? I will probably never be satisfied. Today, I spent some time going into the etymology of "ussakkitvaa" and it is one of those difficult words to untangle. The simplest derivation is with the prefix: ud (up, out) + the root: sakk (go, move) hence: to go or move up or out. Some dictionaries suggest that it is a by-form of ussukkati, a denominative verb from the adj. ussuka but it is very hard to determine its root with any certainty. One possibility might be the root "su" meaning to go. The real breakthrough came when I investigated ussakkitva's cousin, aayuuhitvaa, and found that the Saddaniti explained its verb, aayuuhati, with vaayamati which directly links to the vaayaamo in the right effort of the noble eightfold path. So this supports the meaning of "endeavouring". Now aayuuhati has the meaning of thrust/push forward; exert oneself (acc. to Cone) and thrust/push forward seem to agree in some way with the move up/out (in the basic sense) of ussakkati. I noted that P.M. Tin also uses endeavour in his Vism translation. One problem I have with endeavour is its connotation with beings and I feel that something less personal would be better such as "exerting itself" or "progressing". I like to think of it in terms of plant growth (pushing up/out) with its attainments: the leaves, the flowers, and the fruits. A note: I will be focussing on sitting practice over the next 2 days as it's the 14th and 15th of the half-month. When I first joined this list about 3 years ago, I was doing at least 4 hrs of sitting a day but since then it has drastically fallen off to about an hour a day and I feel that I should start putting back more effort into the practice and have set aside certain days of the month solely for this purpose without having to attend to email or study. Also, until about two weeks ago I had been silent on this list for many months and only came in to answer Nina's question about the dating of texts. I intended that this would just be a short visit, no longer than 2 weeks. Now, I would like to get back to my own list to resume the study of Kaccayana's Pali grammar. I will continue to look in here to see what's going on and make the odd contribution. Best wishes, Jim 23166 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Inquiry to Nina... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Nina & Kiosan, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 10:25 AM > > > N: It is not a matter of focussed training, that would make you cling to a > > self who can focus. The aim is detachment. Let realities come as they are, > > and when there are conditions for understanding it will arise without you > > interfering. The conditions are: association with a good friend in Dhamma, > > listening and study, wise attention, practice in accordance with what you > > learnt. > > It is always so helpful to hear about this. Whenever I feel like, hey I > should do something more, then I remember about the suttas that the Buddha > taught, that his teachings lead to knowledge, comprehension, detachment, > enlightenment, and nibbana: whatever else that do not lead to those are not > his teachings. Does our "practice" lead to knowledge, comprehension, and > detachment? If it leads to the attachment of self, of one who could do, of > particular practices / postures and deeds, those too are not the teaching of > the Buddha. We should be honest to ourselves (at least!) and know it truly: > why do I do what I do? Is it attachment, or is it wisdom? > > kom Dear Kom, Nina and others, Good for me to read this, esp at this time. A few weeks ago, I did a 'vipassana meditation' course which went over 3 days. 3 days where we never spoke and did things 'mindfully'. Mostly, I did this course out of curiosity, as I've never really been a meditator. I also have a close friend who was a monk for a number of years and continues to meditate daily, so I thought I'd give this a go. I will say that I felt quite calm and peaceful after these few days, as it also gave me plenty of time to reflect on the dhamma that I have learnt over the years, and all those around me were doing things quietly and calmly [it seemed ]. Since then I have 'sat' and quietly watched the breath, also called pranayama in yoga practice. And I must say, I have felt somewhat more peaceful than I normally do. I generally do this as part of my yoga practice, and my question is [based on concern about wrong practice], just how easy is it to get caught up in 'wrong practice'? A rather weird question, I think, but as Kom has said above about wanting to do something, that same thought crossed my mind also, 'there must be something I can do'. Sometimes I've thought 'well if I sit and meditate then at least I'm not out with friends talking about whatever, but rarely the path to enlightenment'. Another question: why can't Nibbana be object of clinging? May we all have patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 23167 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:34pm Subject: Dualilty/Non-Duality Dear Group, I'm reading around the topic of Duality/Non-Duality as it is considered within the Theravada tradition. I have these references: All of Us Beset by birth, decay, and death. Twelve Dhamma Talks on Practice given on Parappuduwa Nuns Island by Sister Ayya Khema. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/khema/allofus.html#ch6 Dhamma and Non-duality by Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay27.html Sutta Nipata III.12 Dvayatanupassana Sutta 'The Contemplation of Dualities' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp3-12.html Does anyone have any additional Theravada references? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 23168 From: Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Jim, Thanks for your contributions. I couldn't find anything on how consciousness penetrates the three characteristics. My guess is that "penetrate" means directly experiences. Consciousness can directly experience impermanence, suffering and not self, but without understanding. Understanding can experience the three with understanding. Maybe we could say recognition (sanna) is a label maker and when it recognizes it recognizes this label (concept); so there is no direct experience. Nina, do you have any ideas on how consciousness penetrates the three characteristics? Also, what does penetration penetrate? Does the inability of sanna to penetrate cast doubt on the efficacy of mindfulness (sati)? Larry 23169 From: Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dualilty/Non-Duality Hi Christine, Here's one I just read. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-015.html SN XII, 15: "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence..." B. Bodhi translates it as "This world, Kaccana, for the most part depends upon a duality..." For a comparative study of nonduality in various Buddhist and Advaita Vedanta systems see "Nonduality, A Study In Comparative Philosophy" by David Loy, very good. Larry 23170 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 1:18am Subject: RE: [dsg] Metta as Perfection, Brahma Viharas Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 4:16 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] Metta as Perfection, Brahma Viharas > > > Hi Kom, > > Larry: I think metta as perfection includes > karuna and mudita. Just a > thought. > > Kom: Why do you say so? > > Larry: Because karuna and mudita seem so > indisputably good. Maybe we > could say kindness is the expression of > compassion and joy. When we see > the suffering of people and see their inner > beauty we can't help but be > kind to them. > I agree with you that the brahma viharas are good states (kusala), although not all kusala states are said to be perfections. We need to keep in mind too that the states have different objects. Metta is loving-kindness, having a being or beings as object. Karuna is compassion, having a suffering being as an object. Mudita is sympathetic-joy, having a being receiving a good result as an object. Upekkha is equanimity, having a being or beings as object. Metta doesn't rise with karuna or mudita or upekkha: the states do not mix for they have different objects, although they have many similar states co-arising with them. We can be kind without seeing the suffering of a person. When a friend comes to visit, we can be a good host because of the kindness (or attachment!) we have toward the guest. If the friend is sad, we may have the compassion to listen to them. If they are happy, we may be joyful about their good results. If they have suffering that we cannot help, we may be equanimous by not falling into akusala states. Yet, all these states don't happen the same time, and all have different aspects of a person as their objects. Metta and Upekkha are perfections because the objects of such states are prevalent in our daily lives, where as the objects of karuna (unless you are a bodhisatta) and equanimity are less frequent. Do you see a differences, or do you not see the differences? kom 23171 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dualilty/Non-Duality Hi Larry, Many thanks for this link! I looked it up in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation that you mentioned. The five paragraphs of the on-line translation have three and a half pages of notes in B.B's translation particularly regarding 'existence' and 'non-existence'. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Here's one I just read. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-015.html > > SN XII, 15: "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as > its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence..." > > B. Bodhi translates it as "This world, Kaccana, for the most part > depends upon a duality..." > > For a comparative study of nonduality in various Buddhist and Advaita > Vedanta systems see "Nonduality, A Study In Comparative Philosophy" by > David Loy, very good. > > Larry 23172 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 3:41am Subject: Concepts and Characteristics [Howard] Dear Howard, Very interesting, Soto-like comments! (And to think I associated you more with Rinzai... After all, didn't you once mention that Soto was especially susceptible to "substantialist heresies"? I really do need to read and reflect more carefully in the future!) Howard: "Just a comment on my personal belief. It seems to me that our physical sense discernments (acts of vi~n~nana via the 5 physical sense doors) are already without error, and that ignorance is expressed only through the mind door. To me, vijja is avijja minus the defilements. To me, sa~n~na cleared of the defilements is pa~n~na. To me, there is no problem with the conceptual faculty per se, but only with the conceptual faculty infected by defilement." Dan responds: In my view, avijja minus the defilements is kusala, which may be either with pañña or without pañña. Going a step further, "pañña" is a general term that can refer to any of a wide variety of types wisdom -- some of which are liberating and some of which are not. Sure, there is nothing *wrong* with the conceptual faculty per se, but vipassana arises only when the conceptual faculty is transcended for a few, brief moments. These flashes of insight are very brief, jolting, and strikingly different from moments governed by the conceptual faculty. The conceptual faculty is very active prior to and immediately after vipassana, but the vipassana-ñana themselves are simply not accessible by the conceptual faculty, rationation, inference, etc. Still, conceptualization is crucial, because if the concepts are not right, the insights are bound to be corrupted immediately and wisdom will not develop past the most tender, embryonic stage. The anusaya will remain quite safe, as will samsara, which would be in no danger of losing that rational soul. Abhidhamma is that which is understood through vipassana. Howard: "I do not think that that the only things that are "real" occur at single mind moments. Specifically, many relations that are quite "real" transcend individual mind moments. To me, seeing directly, with filters of ignorance removed, is the essence of wisdom, and not just seeing only what occurs withina single mind moment. So here, I guess, is where I find problems with Abhidhamma as I understand it." Dan responds: "Real" is a bit of a bugaboo. Unless you define "real" in a way that is not repugnant to common parlance, it is tough to argue that the moon or conceptual relations aren't real. However, knowing a lot about the moon or developing even the most astouding conceptual facility and using it to construct the most insightful concepts imaginable is just not liberating. Concepts, thinking, inference, clever word games -- these are not liberating. They simply aren't. Dan 23173 From: monomuni Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 2:36am Subject: What is Clinging ? Friends: What is Clinging (Upadana) ? _______________________________________________________ '"Clinging, Clinging !" is the saying, friend Sariputta, please tell me, What is Clinging ?' 'There are these 4 kinds of clinging, friend: Clinging to Pleasure by Sensing, Clinging to Views and Opinion, * Clinging to Rule, Ritual and cultural Habits, # Clinging to the concept of "Self" claiming 'I Am'. % These, friend, are the 4 Clingings.' 'But, friend, is there any way to break, & to escape these four clingings ?' 'There is, friend, indeed such a Noble 8-fold Way ...' ________________________________________________________ Comments: * Clinging to Views and Opinion: Note that everytime one say: 'I have this View ...' 'I am of this Opinion ...' 'I Judge it to be like this ...' 'I Think it is like this and not like that ...' 'I am of the firm Persuasion, that this only ...' 'My Impression is that ...' 'I have this Idea that it is like this and that' etc. It is rooted in Non-Knowledge; Uncertainty; It is caused by not seeing it directly & not having seen it, Having no direct personal experience with it, Not having 'Touched' it, remaining Unassured, Unascertained, still having Doubt about, slightly Confused about ... Which is quite Contrary to: If you have direct knowledge about something, you say right away: I know it to be exactly like that! and not in any regard otherwise! ex: Any dog-owner if asked this question: Do you now what a dog is like, how it looks ? He say without any doubt nor hesitation: Yes I do Know the dog ... And why is that ? It is because he have seen, heard, touched, smelled, etc. phenomena 'Dog' many times in all variations. He have by that got "direct experience" of phenomena 'Dog' ... All other than such 'direct expericence' is: Mental Construction, Projecting an plausible nice 'Idea' into and over a reality, which always is somewhat untrue, and not really as it really is. As the Buddha said: However you imagine & construe it, it is ALWAYS different & otherwise! ________________________________________________________ # Clinging to Rules, Rituals and Habits: (misapprehension of duty) We accumulate numerous 'Habitual unskillfull Tendencies', which arise because we do a certain thing many times. Then - when unaware - we increase the chance to repeat it. The mind do it by itself 'on autopilot'. Even though it now -in this present context- is quite foolish. "Inappropiate Attention" it is called: ex: Unaware we drive our car to the daily work-location, automaticly, even when our planned destination was something else. ex: The monk have learned to sweep as a novice. So he sweeps every day, three times a day, telling himself: 'This is like meditation' not mindfull of the fact that this excessive sweeping, is what really is keeping him from sitting meditation, which he do not fancy, so he uses sweeping as an 'escape act'. ex: The E-Buddhist who habitually sits at computer in morning, in midday, in evening, reading 'empty irrelevant' posts, so he also do not sit to meditate, to train, and therefore never gets direct experience about what he is reading about and gets by that merely 'intellectual' understanding of Dhamma which only is like a 'shadow' in comparison. ex: A man stands and wait for the red traffic light to become green before he crosses the street. Then - unaware - he gets driven down by a runaway car, from behind, right there in the pedestrian area. He thought himself habitually safe, did not pay 'appropiate attention' and did not dare make the here neccessary exception of crossing the street despite of the red light, which would have saved him. A somewhat comic tragedy caused by clinging to 'the rule: red light = always wait'. No, not Always so ! It Depends on everchanging context! ________________________________________________________ % Clinging to idea of 'Self', the theory of a 'Person=Me=I' There is no fixed unchanging 'self'!!! Thats an obervable fact! 'I am my Ego', is an mere assumption not an observation. We are not the same from moment to moment! Neither physically nor mentally are we 'the same', when we are 7 years old compared to when 87 years old. All is changed, yet still we bear the same name ... Therefore we think 'I am the same person, just older' Yet 'Name' is an empty designation of Box #X saying nothing of what is inside the box which is changing. That is: there is no stable definable entity at all, with fixed borders, that we can designate 'me' or 'I'. We are a dynamic proces like a river: Bathing in Ganges river in the morning we touch SOME water. Bathing again in same river in evening, called by the same name, yet we touch some OTHER water! The river can only be defined as this 'flowing water' which is never the same! When the river runs out in the sea it looses its name 'Ganges'. Then the river water is mixed undiscernable with all other water & is just called sea ... Even Exactly so with awakening: When the river of 'Ego assumption' dries out there is no 'you' nor 'me', internal or external, here or there. No reference idea! 'One is neither the same nor another' 'Na ca so, na ca anno' king Milindas Questions. Beyond Blissful: So have I heard: When the Buddha, after 7 days of non-stop sitting meditation in the bliss of Awakening, in a mighty rainstorm while protected by Mucalinda the mighty snake, then, he, the Blessed One, on recognizing the value of that event, exclaimed: Blissful is solitude for one who is content, wise & who see the Dhamma. Blissful is harmlessness towards all beings without exception. Blissful is freedom from any sensual urge whatsoever. Yet, the supreme bliss, is the elimination of the abysmal conceit ""I am"" !!!’ (asmi mana) ... Udana – Inspiration: II – 1 All phenomena are Selfless Sabbe Dhamma Anatta So nothing is lost by giving up 'Self' Since the 'Me' was never there anyway! _____________________________________________________________________ The cessation of clinging causes (re)becoming to cease. The cessation of becoming causes (re)birth to cease. The cessation of birth causes ageing, sickness & death to cease. The cessation of ageing, sickness & death is the end of Misery!! Friendship is truly GREATEST The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Samanera Samahita Cypress Hut, Gangamulla Bambarella, Tawalantenna 20838. Central Province. SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... WWW: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ The others know not that in this quarrel we perish; those of them who realise it, have their quarrels calmed thereby. Random Dhammapada Verse 6 23174 From: Samahita Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 4:29am Subject: Nama-Rupa! Dear James: Nama-Rupa Mind & Matter Naming & Object Consciousness & Form Is both in Abhidhamma & Quantum Mechanics an undivisable continuum like the two ends of the same stick! To speak of any form without inherently including a mind to percieve this form is groundless. Matter without mind cannot be! Image without camera cannot be! Rupa without nama cannot be! One is material & formful & do not know! The other is immaterial & formless & do Know! Both are dependent on the other as they coarise! So separation in the human context cannot be! These Siamese Twins in brevity: Name enjoys Form smiles Name knows Form goes Neither person nor being shows … : - ] 23175 From: Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dualilty/Non-Duality Hi Christine, I read B. Bodhi's essay on nonduality and one major disagreement I have with it is that Mahayanists and Vedantans understand nonduality as inclusiveness, not unity. This can be summed up with the idea that "the all" is anatta. This idea is applicable to both systems. In Theravada I think we could say nonduality means the middle way between the extremes of eternalism and nihilism. These are not just obscure philosophical beliefs but basic assumptions we live with every day. Nagarjuna is also an exponent of this middle way view. That is the reason why Warder questions whether he is a mahayanist. Both ways of understanding nonduality are focused on anatta but M & V are in the spirit of inclusiveness while T is less effusive and more analytical. Another major difference is that in most Theravada suttas anatta is characterized as an undesirable characteristic while in Mahayana anatta is almost always a saving grace. Most Theravadans ignore this. Larry 23176 From: Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts and Characteristics [Howard] Hi, Dan - I'm only replying to a few points of yours - so I'm putting my remarks first, with your post to follow. One of your points is that avijja with the defilements removed is kusala, but not always wisdom. Maybe so. I just don't know. But to me, when the cloud cover of defilements is removed, nothing more is needed for the sun of wisdom to shine. Another point you make is that the conceptual faculty is quite different from insight. I do agree with that. I was misleading and off-base to put so much emphasis on the conceptual faculty, per se. I should have spoken more generally, I think, of "cognition". I see sa~n~na, conceptuality, and pa~n~na, as all related, but with pa~n~na as a transformed, or - better - sublimated version of these others. Sa~n~na and conceptualizing (vikalpa?) as they are in all but the arahant are faulty functions, defiled by the three poisons. To me, when, even momentarily, the defilements are made ineffective, the doors of perception/cognition are cleaned and operate as wisdom. Then, seeing is direct. But direct seeing doesn't require seeing only "in the moment". There are realities that go beyond point-moments. Consider even something as simple as the relation of "preceding in time", a relation that holds between mindstates, for example. This is an actual relation. But it is empty and ungraspable. It never holds at any time! Event A occurred before event B. At the time that A occurred, there was no event B for it to preceed, and thus the relation did not hold. At the time event B occurs, event A is nonexistent, already gone, and thus the relation does not hold. A relation that holds between things one of which is nonexistent cannot be a relation that holds. Yet it is true that event A preceded event B. Matters are not simple. Things cannot be isolated from each other, separated off; and, if one really looks hard, it becomes clear, I believe, that nothing is graspable. Anatta is extraordinarily deep. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/28/2003 5:41:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, dhd5@c... writes: > > Dear Howard, > Very interesting, Soto-like comments! (And to think I associated you > more with Rinzai... After all, didn't you once mention that Soto was > especially susceptible to "substantialist heresies"? I really do need > to read and reflect more carefully in the future!) > > Howard: "Just a comment on my personal belief. It seems to me that > our physical sense discernments (acts of vi~n~nana via the 5 physical > sense doors) are already without error, and that ignorance is > expressed only through the mind door. To me, vijja is avijja minus > the defilements. To me, sa~n~na cleared of the defilements is > pa~n~na. To me, there is no problem with the conceptual faculty per > se, but only with the conceptual faculty infected by defilement." > > Dan responds: In my view, avijja minus the defilements is kusala, > which may be either with pañña or without pañña. Going a step > further, "pañña" is a general term that can refer to any of a wide > variety of types wisdom -- some of which are liberating and some of > which are not. Sure, there is nothing *wrong* with the conceptual > faculty per se, but vipassana arises only when the conceptual faculty > is transcended for a few, brief moments. These flashes of insight are > very brief, jolting, and strikingly different from moments governed > by the conceptual faculty. The conceptual faculty is very active > prior to and immediately after vipassana, but the vipassana-ñana > themselves are simply not accessible by the conceptual faculty, > rationation, inference, etc. Still, conceptualization is crucial, > because if the concepts are not right, the insights are bound to be > corrupted immediately and wisdom will not develop past the most > tender, embryonic stage. The anusaya will remain quite safe, as will > samsara, which would be in no danger of losing that rational soul. > > Abhidhamma is that which is understood through vipassana. > > Howard: "I do not think that that the only things that are "real" > occur at single mind moments. Specifically, many relations that are > quite "real" transcend individual mind moments. To me, seeing > directly, with filters of ignorance removed, is the essence of > wisdom, and not just seeing only what occurs withina single mind > moment. So here, I guess, is where I find problems with Abhidhamma as > I understand it." > > Dan responds: "Real" is a bit of a bugaboo. Unless you define "real" > in a way that is not repugnant to common parlance, it is tough to > argue that the moon or conceptual relations aren't real. However, > knowing a lot about the moon or developing even the most astouding > conceptual facility and using it to construct the most insightful > concepts imaginable is just not liberating. Concepts, thinking, > inference, clever word games -- these are not liberating. > They simply > aren't. > > Dan 23177 From: a_doc99 Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 9:17am Subject: Retreat accommodation Dear everyone: I'm looking for retreat accommodation for 1 whole month in the US. I want to spend 1 month to practice meditation by myself in quite, natural environment. I plan to do it around in August or earlier. If anyone knows a place I'm looking for, please let me know. Thank you. Best regards, A 23178 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Dear Dan, Thank you very much for all the texts quotes and remarks. We see that knowing and understanding the three characteristics is a very gradual process. As I understand from the texts, realizing the arising and falling away of dhammas begins at the third stage of tender insight, but is still coarse. I do not think it is just inferential, it is insight, not thinking. The first three stages of tender insight are called cinta maya pa~n~naa: cinta meaning thinking. As A. Sujin explained, this does not mean that insight is thinking, but, when a stage of insight is reached there are still moments in between of thinking of realities, not yet enough detachment from thinking. Cittas are so fast, processes (vara) succeed one another so fast. And also thinking can be object of insight at such moments. If we take the first stage of tender insight: this is direct understanding of nama as nama, of rupa as rupa, by vipassana panna, even though there is thinking in between the moments of insight. At those moments it is also known what the mind-door is, moments of insight arise in a mind-door process. Everybody could say: nama is different from rupa, but that is not insight. Insight directly realizes the difference, and this is very difficult. At the first stage of maha-vipassana the arising and falling away of dhammas is seen more clearly, understood directly. This is followed by bhanga ~naa.na, when panna turns more to the dissolution of dhammas. At each successive stage there is more detachment from nama and rupa, and as there is more detachment panna knows more clearly. This is what I understood from texts and from A. Sujin's explanations. With appreciation, Nina. op 27-06-2003 13:29 schreef Dan D. op dhd5@c...: > ed with knowledge of rise and fall is anicca > possible to see directly. The Pm. quote above implies (and I would > agree) that the understanding would be inferential until the only > characteristic apprehended is dissolution, i.e. direct understanding > of anicca does not arise prior to bhavanga-ñana. 23179 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, firm sanna. Dear Mike, op 27-06-2003 14:56 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > > Wonderful, thanks--I had forgotten (if I knew) that 'sanna is the proximate > cause of satipatthana'--is this from Atthasaalinii(sp?), or...? N: I cannot look up the text now, but I heard it years ago (sanna) from A. Somporn. I think we find this in many suttas, such as Gr. S IV, Book of Sevens, Ch I, §6, about the treasure of listening: "...Consider the ariyan disciple who listens much; there is a retaining, a storing of things heard; and those things, lovely in the beginning, lovely in middle, lovely in th end, which set forth in meaning and in detail the divine life, wholly fulfilled, perfectly pure; all those are heard much by him, retained in mind, familiarized by talk, pored over, well penetrated by right view. This is called the treasure of listening..." When there was at first only the oral tradition texts had to be repeated again and again. But for us now: it is the same. We need to hear or read the same things, they have to be hammered in. When will it really sink in? Nina. 23180 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 1:16pm Subject: Re: What is Clinging ? Dear Bhante Samahita, You write: > Note that everytime one say: > > 'I have this View ...' > 'I am of this Opinion ...' > 'I Judge it to be like this ...' > 'I Think it is like this and not like that ...' > 'I am of the firm Persuasion, that this only ...' > 'My Impression is that ...' > 'I have this Idea that it is like this and that' etc. > > It is rooted in Non-Knowledge; Uncertainty; > It is caused by not seeing it directly & not having seen it, > Having no direct personal experience with it, > Not having 'Touched' it, remaining Unassured, > Unascertained, still having Doubt about, > slightly Confused about ... Are you sure? > Which is quite Contrary to: > > If you have direct knowledge about something, > you say right away: > > I know it to be exactly like that! > and not in any regard otherwise! Always? Dan 23181 From: Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 2:22pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Metta as Perfection, Brahma Viharas Hi Kom, Yes, I see the differences between the 4 brahma viharas. Maybe we should change the books and make them perfections. Larry 23182 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 2:29pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Metta as Perfection, Brahma Viharas Hi Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 2:22 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] Metta as Perfection, Brahma Viharas > > > Hi Kom, > > Yes, I see the differences between the 4 brahma viharas. Maybe we should > change the books and make them perfections. > I am not sure if you are saying this seriously, or saying this tounge-in-cheek. :-) kom 23183 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 4:45pm Subject: Re: Quantum Theory is Abhidhamma! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear James, > [snip] > The first stage of insight is the distinction of nama and rupa (nama-rupa- > paricheta-nana). The reasoning given is that without this stage of > insight, the person still holds dear all the khandas (nama & rupa) as > being truly theirs (thinking that they are not don't really count). The first > stage of insight gives the indisputable prove (to the person) that in our > daily experiences, there are nothing beyond the nama and rupa (nothing > beyond the dhamma). Anattaness becomes obvious for the very first > time. > [snip] > kom dear Kom, Thank you for the above. This, for me, is such valuable reading. So clear and precise. A. Sujin regularly speaks about this 1st stage of insight. I keep a book beside my computor [I don't have a printer], in which I enter anything that I think is beneficial, and this has definitely gone in. I understand you are 'standing in' for Sarah, while she is tramping around the Swiss alps. Good work, Kom, so important, I benefit as I'm sure others do also. Patience, courage and good cheer. Azita 23184 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Inquiry to Nina... Hi Azita, I thought of you the other day when buying 'the best' cones at the Valley markets. I've put my son onto them as well. Thanks.:-) I don't see how sitting and watching the breath is any different to slowly, and with concentration, doing any other set practice - yoga, tai chi, jogging etc. If you view it as a wellness tool, and it has beneficial effects, why not try it for a while? You are not seeing it as a necessary step for a 'self' to achieve enlightenment, and you would not neglect contact with admirable friends, hearing and reflecting on the true Dhamma, and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. I think if sitting in any form is helpful to you - just do it, don't stress about it. :-) By the way, did we ever sort out the question tossed around at Cooran about 'Is Nibbana another term for annihilation'? I found RobK's post on bhavana to be extremely helpful. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22897 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" > wrote: > > Dear Nina & Kiosan, > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 10:25 AM > > > > > N: It is not a matter of focussed training, that would make you > cling to a > > > self who can focus. The aim is detachment. Let realities come as > they are, > > > and when there are conditions for understanding it will arise > without you > > > interfering. The conditions are: association with a good friend > in Dhamma, > > > listening and study, wise attention, practice in accordance with > what you > > > learnt. > > > > It is always so helpful to hear about this. Whenever I feel like, > hey I > > should do something more, then I remember about the suttas that the > Buddha > > taught, that his teachings lead to knowledge, comprehension, > detachment, > > enlightenment, and nibbana: whatever else that do not lead to those > are not > > his teachings. Does our "practice" lead to knowledge, > comprehension, and > > detachment? If it leads to the attachment of self, of one who > could do, of > > particular practices / postures and deeds, those too are not the > teaching of > > the Buddha. We should be honest to ourselves (at least!) and know > it truly: > > why do I do what I do? Is it attachment, or is it wisdom? > > > > kom > > Dear Kom, Nina and others, > Good for me to read this, esp at this time. > A few weeks ago, I did a 'vipassana meditation' course which > went over 3 days. 3 days where we never spoke and did > things 'mindfully'. Mostly, I did this course out of curiosity, as > I've never really been a meditator. > I also have a close friend who was a monk for a number of > years and continues to meditate daily, so I thought I'd give this a > go. I will say that I felt quite calm and peaceful after these few > days, as it also gave me plenty of time to reflect on the dhamma that > I have learnt over the years, and all those around me were doing > things quietly and calmly [it seemed ]. > Since then I have 'sat' and quietly watched the breath, also > called pranayama in yoga practice. And I must say, I have felt > somewhat more peaceful than I normally do. > I generally do this as part of my yoga practice, and my > question is [based on concern about wrong practice], just how easy is > it to get caught up in 'wrong practice'? A rather weird question, > I think, but as Kom has said above about wanting to do something, > that same thought crossed my mind also, 'there must be something I > can do'. Sometimes I've thought 'well if I sit and meditate then at > least I'm not out with friends talking about whatever, but rarely the > path to enlightenment'. > Another question: why can't Nibbana be object of clinging? > May we all have patience, courage and good cheer > Azita. 23185 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Dear Larry, op 28-06-2003 04:37 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina, do you have any ideas on how consciousness penetrates the three > characteristics? N: Remember the first sentence Jim translated from the subco: <"But how does vi~n~naa.na bring about the penetration of the characteristics?" and the short answer is: "By way of the path seen by pa~n~naa."> Panna accompanies citta, panna performs its function of pativedha, but citta experiences the same object as panna, it experiences the nama or rupa appearing at that moment as: impermanent, or dukkha, or anatta. Also sanna accompanies that citta and performs its own function of marking that object. L:Also, what does penetration penetrate? N: We speak here again of pativedha. As Jim just explained, there is pannatti, patipatti and pativedha. This is a good question. As we see from the subco, it can mean clear realization of the characteristics, but it can also mean: realization of nibbana. When there is the stage of patipatti, practice, insight is being developed, but when the level of pativedha is reached, there is realization of the truth. During the process enlightenment is attained, panna has first as object: one of the three characteristics, that is seeing the dhamma of that moment as impermanent, or dukkha, or anatta. Panna thoroughly understands, has become accomplished, directly penetrates the true nature of realities. Then in the same process lokuttara magga-citta arises accompanied by panna which is then lokuttara, and has nibbana as object. I will not try to pinpoint exactly when patipatti becomes pativedha. For sure during there is pativedha during the process enlightenment is attained. I shall make an attempt to translate the sentences of the subco Jim has given us, with the risk to make mistakes. Hopefully Jim will correct these later on, but I understand that he will return to Kaccayana's Pali grammar, I was hoping that he would, I am waiting to learn more about this grammar. Nina. 23186 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 10:39pm Subject: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hello Howard, After reading the information supplied by Steve and others, I thought my reply had become redundant and decided not to post it. But I see from your message to Dan, that you still feel the Abhidhamma explanation is flawed, and so I am posting this just in case it helps. You were saying: -------------------- > These are cetasikas, and they are characteristics of the mindstate in which they occur. > -------------------- Cittas, cetasikas and rupas have characteristics but I don't think it's relevant to regard any of those dhammas as being the characteristics of the moment in which they arise. I'm sure the Abhidhamma doesn't say they are. ------------------------ > Besides the cetasikas, there is the citta, itself (the discerning) and the arammana (nama or rupa that is discerned). This mindstate, or bundle consisting of citta, arammana, and cetasikas, being a compound, must be pa~n~natti, no? > ---------------------- When citta co-arises with cetasikas and rupas, there is no involvement of concepts at all. (Nor is there any additional dhamma created -- as if the whole were more than the sum of its parts.) It is only when we refer to the co-arising phenomena as a "bundle," "mindstate," "mind-moment' or 'living being," that there are concepts. ----------------- > It is not a single paramattha dhamma, is it? Here one seems to have a problem inmmediately! (But this is a different matter than my main point.) > ------------------ If, the Abhidhamma was, in fact, claiming that mind- moments are conditioned dhammas or that they are concepts with their own characteristics, then yes, there would be a problem. But, as it happens, all is well :-) --------------------- > What I was saying was that if, as Abhidhamma asserts, there is naught but nama and rupa, then, unless the tilakkhana (and all other characteristics) are namas or rupas, they must be nothing at at all - mere figments, concept-only! > ----------------- When it is said that dhammas have their own sabhava (essence), it means, 'they have their own characteristics.' I think it is correct to say that dhammas ARE their characteristics. Steve has given us a quote to the effect that individual characteristics have no sabhava of their own. But this is not a problem -- sabhava doesn't need a sabhava of its own. -------------------- > In particular, impermanence and relations, "things" which go beyond single mindstates, must be concept-only! > ----------------- Anicca, as opposed the *concept* of anicca, exists as a characteristic of any given conditioned dhamma: Outside of that, it has no existence. ------------- > Now, I find that an "unhappy" conclusion. My attempt at a hypothesized solution was to consider that there is a category more general than those of namas and rupas, namely that of "conditions", and that some conditions, such as impermanence and most relations, transcend individual mind-moments. > --------------- In conventional science, heat exists and so do the hot bodies it flows from and the cold bodies it flows to; but the laws of thermodynamics have no separate existence of their own. In the same way, dhammas condition other dhammas but they are irreducible; the conditions themselves have no separate entity. I think you should stick with the Abhidhamma a while longer, Howard; there is no need to go it alone. Kind regards, Ken --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Dan and all - > > Just a comment on my personal belief. 23187 From: Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 11:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Nina, Thanks for your answer. Let me repeat it to see if I have it right. Consciousness penetrates the characteristics by being the vehicle thru which panna cetasika functions. They both experience impermanence, or dukkha, or anatta at the same time. Sanna doesn't exactly experience. It marks or recognizes. Ultimately, what is penetrated is the khandhas or grasping of the khandhas. Panna penetrates the khandhas or grasping and realizes nibbana. The khandhas continue for a while, but grasping ceases. Eventually the khandhas cease. I'm looking forward to your translation of the commentary. Have you decided on an alternative to "endeavour"? Larry ----------------------- Nina wrote: L: Nina, do you have any ideas on how consciousness penetrates the three characteristics? N: Remember the first sentence Jim translated from the subco: <"But how does vi~n~naa.na bring about the penetration of the characteristics?" and the short answer is: "By way of the path seen by pa~n~naa."> Panna accompanies citta, panna performs its function of pativedha, but citta experiences the same object as panna, it experiences the nama or rupa appearing at that moment as: impermanent, or dukkha, or anatta. Also sanna accompanies that citta and performs its own function of marking that object. L:Also, what does penetration penetrate? N: We speak here again of pativedha. As Jim just explained, there is pannatti, patipatti and pativedha. This is a good question. As we see from the subco, it can mean clear realization of the characteristics, but it can also mean: realization of nibbana. When there is the stage of patipatti, practice, insight is being developed, but when the level of pativedha is reached, there is realization of the truth. During the process enlightenment is attained, panna has first as object: one of the three characteristics, that is seeing the dhamma of that moment as impermanent, or dukkha, or anatta. Panna thoroughly understands, has become accomplished, directly penetrates the true nature of realities. Then in the same process lokuttara magga-citta arises accompanied by panna which is then lokuttara, and has nibbana as object. I will not try to pinpoint exactly when patipatti becomes pativedha. For sure during there is pativedha during the process enlightenment is attained. I shall make an attempt to translate the sentences of the subco Jim has given us, with the risk to make mistakes. Hopefully Jim will correct these later on, but I understand that he will return to Kaccayana's Pali grammar, I was hoping that he would, I am waiting to learn more about this grammar. 23188 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dualilty/Non-Duality Hello Larry and All, Here is another link (provided by Antony) - a talk on Non-Duality by Ajahn Sumedho http://www.amaravati.fslife.co.uk/english/documents/the_way_it_is/18no d.html He calls non-dualism the 'neither-nor' approach to philosophical questions: "Monistic religion tends to talk about the One, the One God, or the Whole or the Buddha Nature, or the One Mind, and that's very inspiring. We turn to monistic doctrines for inspiration. But inspiration is only one level of religious experience, and you have to outgrow it. You have to let go of the desire for inspiration, or the belief in God or in the Oneness or in the One Mind or the all embracing benevolence or in the universal fairness." Larry: "Another major difference is that in most Theravada suttas anatta is characterized as an undesirable characteristic while in Mahayana anatta is almost always a saving grace. Most Theravadans ignore this". Aren't the Suttas Word of the Buddha? Shouldn't they all be consistent? I hadn't thought that the Theravada suttas saw Anatta as 'undesirable' or 'desirable' - just that that is the way it is. metta and peace, Christine ---The Trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I read B. Bodhi's essay on nonduality and one major disagreement I have > with it is that Mahayanists and Vedantans understand nonduality as > inclusiveness, not unity. This can be summed up with the idea that "the > all" is anatta. This idea is applicable to both systems. In Theravada I > think we could say nonduality means the middle way between the extremes > of eternalism and nihilism. These are not just obscure philosophical > beliefs but basic assumptions we live with every day. Nagarjuna is also > an exponent of this middle way view. That is the reason why Warder > questions whether he is a mahayanist. Both ways of understanding > nonduality are focused on anatta but M & V are in the spirit of > inclusiveness while T is less effusive and more analytical. > > Another major difference is that in most Theravada suttas anatta is > characterized as an undesirable characteristic while in Mahayana anatta > is almost always a saving grace. Most Theravadans ignore this. > > Larry 23189 From: monomuni Date: Sun Jun 29, 2003 2:09am Subject: Great Compassion! (Mahakaruna) Friends; The Blessed One’s direct Knowledge of Great Compassion (Mahakaruna) for all beings without exceptions, is one of the six knowledges that is not shared by disciples: Upon the Enlightened Ones, the Blessed Ones who see thus: I am crossed over, while this world has not crossed over! I am released, while this World is bound & enslaved! I am in control, while this world is out of control! I am at ease, while this world is not even in peace! I am content, while this world is frustrated! I am quenched, while this world is on fire! Life in this World is without Satisfaction.. Life in this World is without Protection.. Life in this World is without Certainty.. Life in this World is blinded by Views.. Life in this World is captured by Birth.. Life in this World is obsessed by Sensing... Life in this World is addicted by Craving.. Life in this World is imprisoned by Urge.. Life in this World is haunted by Stress.. Life in this World is dominated by Ageing.. Life in this World is afflicted by Sickness.. Life in this World is struck down by Death.. There descends this Great Compassion: I, having crossed, can guide across! I, being quenched, can extinguish! I, being released, can set free! I, being guarded, can restrain! I, being at ease, can pacify! I, being content, can comfort! I, being capable, can Cure! This is a Blessed One's direct knowledge of Great Compassion! __________________________________________________________ Yeah ! Certainly so ! Source: Path of Discrimination I (71) (exerpt) Patisambhidamagga I [131] What a true solace, relief & escape for all of Us even after 2500 years! May this true Dhamma last long ... Friendship is truly GREATEST The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Samanera Samahita Cypress Hut, Gangamulla Bambarella, Tawalantenna 20838. Central Province. SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... WWW: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ As a flower beautiful and brilliant of hue, but without fragrance, even so fruitless is the well-spoken word of one who does not practise it. Random Dhammapada Verse 51 23190 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jun 29, 2003 7:40am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Quantum Theory is Abhidhamma! Dear Azita, > -----Original Message----- > From: gazita2002 [mailto:gazita2002@y...] > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 4:46 PM > I understand you are 'standing > in' for Sarah, while > she is tramping around the Swiss alps. Other dhamma friends and I are keeping tab (minimally) for DSG to keep things going. Our moderators are very energetic and committed to the discussions in this group. I don't think I have that much energy! Thanks for your response. kom 23191 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Jun 29, 2003 9:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inquiry to Nina... Hi Azita, If watching the breath in the sense of being mindful of the in-&-out breathing as described in anapanasati sutta is what you have been doing and you have experienced for yourself the calm and peacefulness after few days of meditation, then it is indeed wonderful! Calm and peacefulness are wholesome, skillful qualities that one can see for oneself. It is right effort to generate desire, to endeavor, to activate persistence, to uphold & exert one's intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. Regarding 'wrong practice', what 'wrong practice' are you refering to? And regarding the question: why can't Nibbana be object of clinging? I would reply with a rhetorical question: How can an object of clinging, fabricated, impermanent, dukkha, be the cessation of dukkha, unborn, unmade, unfabricated, unbecome? Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Dear Kom, Nina and others, > Good for me to read this, esp at this time. > A few weeks ago, I did a 'vipassana meditation' course which > went over 3 days. 3 days where we never spoke and did > things 'mindfully'. Mostly, I did this course out of curiosity, as > I've never really been a meditator. > I also have a close friend who was a monk for a number of > years and continues to meditate daily, so I thought I'd give this a > go. I will say that I felt quite calm and peaceful after these few > days, as it also gave me plenty of time to reflect on the dhamma that > I have learnt over the years, and all those around me were doing > things quietly and calmly [it seemed ]. > Since then I have 'sat' and quietly watched the breath, also > called pranayama in yoga practice. And I must say, I have felt > somewhat more peaceful than I normally do. > I generally do this as part of my yoga practice, and my > question is [based on concern about wrong practice], just how easy is > it to get caught up in 'wrong practice'? A rather weird question, > I think, but as Kom has said above about wanting to do something, > that same thought crossed my mind also, 'there must be something I > can do'. Sometimes I've thought 'well if I sit and meditate then at > least I'm not out with friends talking about whatever, but rarely the > path to enlightenment'. > Another question: why can't Nibbana be object of clinging? > May we all have patience, courage and good cheer > Azita. 23192 From: vital Date: Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:14am Subject: I wish all of you I wish that all the people in the world will live in peace and are happy that they have no enmity and pain.... The fact we meet on out way, are facts... we cannot change them The only thing we can do is accept them and try to make the best of it. We can not change other person, we can not change the reality The only thing we can change is ourself, the manner we see te reality and the manner we act. All what we do will rebounce at us... So let do good things.... Give love an friendship to all the living beings we meet now, tomorrow and everyday of our live... We don't have to play a movie, we can be who we are... You can act as you are, dont hide things for others... If you can lose your mask and accept who you are... nothing can disturb you in giving love and friendship to all people. I hope to meet you one day in our lives, till I like to give you all the friendship and power you need... I hope one day I will live in Asia for the rest of my life and help people there who need my help.... Vital http://www.vitalmoors.nl Mr. Vital E.H. Moors homepage: http://www.vitalmoors.nl ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 6:18 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 > Dear Larry, > op 28-06-2003 04:37 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > Nina, do you have any ideas on how consciousness penetrates the three > > characteristics? > N: Remember the first sentence Jim translated from the subco: > <"But how does > vi~n~naa.na bring about the penetration of the characteristics?" and > the short answer is: "By way of the path seen by pa~n~naa."> > Panna accompanies citta, panna performs its function of pativedha, but citta 23193 From: suzakico Date: Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:42am Subject: Re: Inquiry to Nina... Nina san, Kon-nichiwa > I hope you will stay here, not just passing Thank you for the offer! By the way, I used to go to the Netherlands (the place you live now?) quite often. But I am happy that this forum helps the communication so much at ease even if we are so many miles away from each other. (I live in LA) I am reading your books of `survey' and `daily life' I found on the net. In the meantime, if you can respond to my question at your leisure, that would be most helpful. What I am curious first is to know your vivid, or perhaps inspiring moment you had at the earlier/beginning years with A. Sujin. I read some comment from the book on `daily life.' But more specifically, how was your impression/learning from the first meeting? How skillfully did she bring the technical matter/Abidhamma–if I may say so- into the living/daily practice? Any specific event the you can highlight? Even a tiny incident that brought the message to you – verbally or behaviorally -may be very helpful. (If you have written such a story elsewhere, please let me know. So far, I found `survey' and `daily life' on the net) In the last post, you said: "I became used to the different types of citta, consciousness." What was the few specific incidents in your early days that you found the glimpse of dhamma? Then, you said, "it is best to start in a very simple way: starting from this moment. Is there no seeing? We have a feeling of self who sees, but is this the truth? After seeing you become attached to what you see, or you have aversion. Are these moments not real? These are properties (cetasikas) arising with types of citta different from seeing. Seeing sees visible object, just what appears through the eyes. Visible object is not a person or thing, those are concepts we think of. This thinking is conditioned by association of different experiences that are remembered. Visible object is rupa. So long as we do not distinguish nama from rupa, we cling to a whole, we cling to self." The above sentences indicate: the aim is understanding of mind- matter relationship, by dissecting or rather becoming aware of specific happenings that we experience in our daily life (that we were unaware of before). Such insight will enable us to become aware of what is going on – in terms of cause and effect relationship to see the cause of suffering, etc. Such cause and effect relationship lead to the experiential understanding of four noble truths. So, practicing the `process' (may I also say, sila- samadhi-panna?) will lead to elimination of suffering. The question: Did this rephrasing/interretation make sense to you? Or, are you talking something more specific? Also, are you saying conditioned thinking is `always' bad, or at times bad? Any comment? The last point: From just skimming to read Buddhism in Daily Life, it appears that you do not put high importance in `formal' meditation. Was this the case in your beginning of the Path? Did you start to do `formal' meditation later? If so, how and how effective was it? Or, are you suggesting that it depends on people? I realize I already posted many questions. So, I stop here. If you could answer in any way you prefer, I would appreciate it very much! Ogen kide! (bow) Kio 23194 From: Date: Sun Jun 29, 2003 2:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dualilty/Non-Duality Hi Christine, Hmm. I didn't think much of Ajahn Sumedho's talk. I liked the idea of inviting people to open to a stark, plain, rather unpleasant reality without recourse to a remedy but I don't think he said much about duality or nonduality. Plus I thought it was unwise to belittle the religious experience, but in the context of a program instruction I suppose that was expedient. One kind of nonduality I didn't mention is the nonduality of consciousness. In experience, all there is is consciousness. Everything else that supposedly exists (subject/object distinctions, mind/body, even non-consciousness) is inferred. Taking this idea to heart and deeply contemplating it is said to free one from a belief in a self. This is a "skillful means" found in some Mahayana and Vedanta teachings. I don't think this is incompatible with abhidhamma but it comes close to the view that consciousness is self, so Theravada tends to be very sceptical about it. As for the appearance of the undesirability of anatta in the suttas, I guess that's just my idiosyncratic view since it doesn't seem obvious to anyone else. My reasoning is 1) dukkha is undesirable, 2) impermanence is dukkha, 3) what is dukkha is anatta, 4) therefore anatta is dukkha. I believe you will find 2 & 3 in many suttas. I'm sure there is a way of getting out of this problem but maybe it isn't worth pursuing. Larry 23195 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:20pm Subject: Re: Inquiry to Nina... --- Dear Kio-san, Welcome to dsg and thanks for the great questions to Nina. I give this link which might heklp for your first question about Nina's meeting with A. Sujin http://www.abhidhamma.org/interview%20with%20nina.html#Interview% 20with%20Nina%20van%20Gorkom %20September%201999 Domo arigato gozaimashita robertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "suzakico" wrote: > Nina san, Kon-nichiwa > > What I am curious first is to know your vivid, or perhaps inspiring > moment you had at the earlier/beginning years with A. Sujin. I read > some comment from the book on `daily life.' But more specifically, > how was your impression/learning from the first meeting? How > skillfully did she bring the technical matter/Abidhamma–if I may say > so- into the living/daily practice? Any specific event the you can > highlight? Even a tiny incident that brought the message to you – > verbally or behaviorally -may be very helpful. (If you have written > such a story elsewhere, please let me know. So far, I > found `survey' and `daily life' on the net) > 23197 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Howard Thanks for these comments. An interesting hypothesis, but difficult to comment on without the textual references that are relied upon. The function of consciousness is said to be that of knowing the object, and in that regard it is 'chief in knowing'. Beyond that, I've not come across any reference to consciousness as a 'separative awareness'. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and all) - ... > ================================= > Somewhere I've read, possibly by David Kalupahana, of vi~n~nana > being described as a "separative awareness". What I believe was > meant by that was not only (or even mainly) a subject-object > awareness, but very much that of an awareness which "separates" > out, distinguishing the object along with parts and aspects of that > object, but without the recognitional capacity of sa~n~na. > > With metta, > Howard 23198 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inquiry to Nina... Kio Welcome to DSG, and thanks for your interesting questions. I know that Nina and others have already replied, but I would just like to comment on one minor point. You say: > Furthermore at least from > reading the sutta, it appears that the Buddha never went into such > a detail. It is true that there is less abhidhamma-type detail in the suttas than in the abhidhamma itself. But what I have learned over the years is that much of what is found in the Abhidhamma is in fact mentioned in passing in the suttas; the detail is elaborated in the Abhidhamma. Thus, in the case of the cittas that make up the sense-door and mind-door processes, these can mostly be traced back to references in the suttas. (There is a useful entry on this particular aspect in the appendix to Nyanitiloka's Buddhist Dictionary -- available online) I hope find the discussion here useful. Jon --- suzakico wrote: > As I am just stopping by, I am hopeful not to disturb the flow of > the discussion going on here. But as I read the book, A Survey of > Paramattha Dhammas perhaps for 4-5 hours worth and 1/3 of it so > far, > I came back with a question that I appreciate it very much if you > can address for me as much as you must have gained great benefit > from the book and the interaction with Sujin. Anyway, here is my > question: > > Why is it so necessary to analyze the mind and body phenomena in > the > way suggested, i.e., dividing by various terms to distinguish them > in detail? (This book points out 16 levels of vipassana nana > (knowledge). 89-129 types of consciousness (citta), 52 types of > mental factor, 28 types of physical phenomenon, etc.) At least for > > me, this is too cumbersome and makes me feels like losing the > holistic picture although this ?gmay?h be beneficial for > specifically focused training. (My sense however is that even the > training/meditation may be too complex.) Furthermore at least from > > reading the sutta, it appears that the Buddha never went into such > a > detail. I realize that once interested and realized the benefit, > we > may want to explore to the detail and find the joy in such > exploration. I just want to get your personal feedback on this > concern. > > By the way, I have some vipassana and Zen background as shown in > www.suzaki.has.it . Personally, Zen appeals to me because of its > directness. However, without biased/constrained by my background, > I > would like to not to miss the opportunity to learn from your > experience, if you may. > > With metta, > Kio 23199 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Jim Thanks for coming in with this passage. It sounds very interesting, and I look forward to hearing more about Dhammapala's comments in due course as, hopefully, we collectively manage to translate the passage you have given. I have had another thought on the original passage in Vism, and that is that the reference to 'bringing about the penetration of the characteristics of an object' has a different meaning in each of the 2 contexts (i.e., vinnana vs. panna). Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Jon, ... > > Personally, I still find puzzling the reference to vinnana being > > able to 'bring about the penetration of the characteristics of an > > object'. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what this refers > to > > exactly? ... > I think Dhammapala is probably the best one to turn to for a > solution > to this puzzle for he asks a very pertinent question: "But how does > vi~n~naa.na bring about the penetration of the characteristics?" > and > the short answer is: "By way of the path seen by pa~n~naa." but it > comes with a detailed explanation which I have only just seen and > it > is not easy to understand right off the bat. So what I'll do is to > first present the passage in Pali below in case anyone would like > to see it or figure it out (Nina?) while I do. ... > Best wishes, > Jim 23200 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:52am Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Steve and All Thanks for these quotes. I found the first to be especially relevant to this thread. To my reading, it says that while characteristics are real, they are not 'dhammas' that arise in this world (they are not 'clung to' fundamental phenomena). Perhaps the term 'modes' in the passage neatly sums it up. I had more difficlty with the second passage. I couldn't quite catch the point the author was making. If anyone wanted to give an explanation, that would be much appreciated. Jon --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi Howard, Ken, Larry and Dan > I have found 2 > passages that may be of relevance to the thread. > > "These modes, (that is, the 3 characteristics) are not included in > the aggregates because they are states without individual essence > (asabhaava-dhammaa); and they are not separate from the aggregates > because they are unapprehendable without the aggregates. But they > should be understood as appropriate conceptual differences > (pa~n~natti-visesaa) that are reason for differentiation in the > explaining of dangers in the five aggregates, and which are > allowable > by common usage in respect of the five aggregates" < Visuddhimagga > Maha Tika (found in the notes on page 747 of Visuddhimagga) > > > And from `Buddhist Analysis of Matter' by Y.Karunadasa. > > When a rupa-dhamma originates, it is called rupassa jati; when it > subsists (decay), it is called rupassa jarata; when it perishes, it > is called rupassa aniccata. In addition to the rupa-dhamma which > originates, subsists (decay) and perishes, there are no > rupa-dhammas > answering to the names :rupassa jati, rupassa jarata and rupassa > aniccata. > If these characteristics, too, were postulated as real entities, > then it would be necessary to postulate another set of (secondary) > characteristics to account for their own origination, subsistence > and > cessation. And these (secondary) characteristics would, in turn, > require another set of (secondary secondary) characteristics to > account for their origination, etc. In this way it would lead to a > process ad infinitum. And it is in order to avoid this problem of > infinite regress that the characteristics are not recognized as > entities distinct from, and as real as, the dhammas which they > characterize. This is the significance of the statement made in the > Mohavicchedani: "It is not correct to assume that origination > originates, decay decays and cessation ceases, because such an > assumption leads to the (fallacy) of infinite > regress(anava.t.thaana)" 23201 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, citta knows Nina --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > I hope you have also a real vacation, doing nothing! I am always > delighted > to hear from you when you are at airports or in bars. Do you do day > hikes, or longer treks? See below. This year Sarah's mother is joining us, so we are doing only day walks. However, these can also be quiet strenuous, especially here in the Matterhorn region where, as you can imagine, walks of every possible grade of difficulty are available. Tomorrow morning we have a 4:30 am start to catch the sunrise (just like the India trips!). > op 26-06-2003 13:25 schreef Jonothan Abbott op > jonoabb@y...: > > > Personally, I still find puzzling the reference to vinnana being > able > > to 'bring about the penetration of the characteristics of an > object'. > > Does anyone have any suggestions as to what this refers to > exactly? > N: It depends how we read this. Not in the same way as panna. Citta > knows > colour, sound, etc. but it is panna that understands them as > non-self. Thus, > as it is said in the Co: citta clearly knows an object (ru cheng in > Thai). > Citta knows real diamants but also knows when they are fakes. It > knows > barking of a dog, but also when you are imitating the barking, > remember from Survey? > Nina. Thanks for this explanation. Citta 'clearly knows' the object. I suppose I thought that something more than this was being suggested by the expression 'bringing about the penetration of the characteristics of an object', especially since the same expression was used to describe the function of panna. But obviously, each must be read in it's particular context. Jon 23202 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 7:19am Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Dan Great to see you back. Thanks for coming in on this thread, and especially for the quotes and comments in this post. I found it very ueful to read. I especially appreciated: > 5. The direct understanding of anicca only comes in the advanced > stages of insight (i.e., after namarupaparecchedañana and knowledge > of rise and fall), as discussed Samohavinodani (Dispeller of > delusion, §243): "...the characteristic of impermanence does not > appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating rise and fall > owing to its being concealed by continuity (santati)...But when > continuity is dissected by laying hold of rise and fall, the > characteristic of impermanence appears in accordance with its true > essential nature." The different levels of understanding are experinced only when the necesary underlying conditions have been developed. Jon --- "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Nina, Howard, Steve, Larry, > I think you are right in each of your comments, Nina, and of course > there is confirmation in the texts: > > 1. Anicca must be anicca "of" a nama or rupa. 23203 From: dwlemen Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 8:00am Subject: Re: Single Threading & Serialization --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Dave, > > You must be a computer guy... My kind of people ;-). > Yes I am! 8 years+ as a programmer. > > In the model given in the abhidhamma, the mind experiences > one object at a time. When we see, we don't hear. When we > think about what we see or what we hear, we neither see nor > hear. This maybe contradictory (to some people) to our > experiences: this is only because the minds rise and fall > away so extremely rapidly that it seems that the hearing and > the seeing happen at the same time. > > The Buddha didn't teach about the interaction of the brains > and the sense input, so we stay mostly off this topic. It > is not taught, and probably is not essential to attaining > nibbana... > I've been debating since reading your post here whether we are talking about the same things but using different terms, or not. I think that we are not, but close. The way I understand things (this is probably not Buddhism but "Daveism"), consciousness is that awareness or "mind" and it is different than the brain, which is the place where the physical inputs are dealt with. So, the ear is always sending input to the brain, the brain is taking those inputs and "looking them up" in memories, etc. and making the decision on whether send an "interupt" to consciousness. The same for the eye, nose, taste, and touch. So, when I sitting out on Friday watching the fireworks, my ear will hear the sounds of all the people on all the blankets around mine, but the brain will filter them out so that consciousness it not bothered with them. But, if a tiny little mosquito buzzes around me, the brain will send an interupt to consciousness so I will "hear" it and swish it away. But, I think that, at that moment of hearing the bug, there is still seeing, feeling, tasting, etc. but there is not awareness of them. So, my understanding is that the brain is multi- processing, but consciousness (awareness) is single threaded. But, as I mentioned, this is my understanding of how things work, not any understanding of Buddhist teachings. I don't want to debate my theory vs. yours, and my intention is to learn where I do differ from Buddhism and how the Buddhist does understand reality. > > The Buddha teaching is truly marvelous and amazing. I know > no other person who gives teachings that are so true, > conceptually and ultimately, on all the different topics > (that I can see for myself). The teaching brings knowledge. > With knowledge, we can begin to truly turn away from > ignorance and wrong-understanding, and eventually from > attachment and grief. That is the miracle of the Buddha's > teaching. > On this, I do agree fully. In my studies so far, as I've gained real understanding of what the Buddha taught, I've either found that they matched what I've already thought, or that the Buddha had a better explaination than my own and I've happily abandoned my own theory in favor of the Buddha's. Perhaps as I gain more understanding of this aspect of his teachings, the same will happen. I do have another question for you. When Sarah and I began our talks, we started by discussing the merits or even need for meditation. What is your take on the emphasis on meditation? Are the Buddhist who are spending their time in meditation wasting their time? How do you reconcile the portions of the Buddha's teaching that seem to promote meditation with the theories here (by Sarah and others) that it is not that important? Peace, Dave 23204 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 8:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Dave, > -----Original Message----- > From: dwlemen [mailto:dwlemen@y...] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 8:01 AM > > But, as I mentioned, this is my understanding of how things work, not > any understanding of Buddhist teachings. I don't want to debate my > theory vs. yours, and my intention is to learn where I do differ from > Buddhism and how the Buddhist does understand reality. You may already know about this, but here are books by Nina available on-line, at the courtesy of Alan Weller, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ebook.html > I do have another question for you. When Sarah and I began our > talks, we started by discussing the merits or even need for > meditation. What is your take on the emphasis on meditation? Are > the Buddhist who are spending their time in meditation wasting their > time? How do you reconcile the portions of the Buddha's teaching > that seem to promote meditation with the theories here (by Sarah and > others) that it is not that important? > I think we have to first remember that the highest goal of the Buddha teachings are vision, knowledge (of things as they truly are), relinquishment, enlightenment, and nibbana. If we understand this truly, then we can find out for ourselves if the practice/teachings that we follow lead to all those things. Anything that leads to more attachment is not the Buddha's teachings. Are we attached to any rites and rituals? Almost certainly, but that is not the Buddha's teachings. The second thing that we should learn before we follow other people blindly, regardless of how they tell you about their experiences, is to learn what is meant by meditation, bhavana in pali, really means (purpose and conditions). Bhavana means development, and this is actually two-folds: tranquil development, and insight development. Insight development is the highest fruit of the Buddha's teachings, even though the Buddha taught and praised the benefits of tranquil meditation too. Both types of development require wisdom and knowledge about different mental states. For many of the places that I have gone to meditate, I don't think the taught practices increase the level of understandings about the mental states. For these places, I am pretty sure they are not the right practices. There are some places that have teachings that do increase wisdom, but they are all mixed up with the attachment to achievements (either sati or the different vipassana nana, and even the supramundane path itself), which would lead to the wrong practices for the ignorant that don't understand the differences. I personally think that a wise person would do the right thing. Hence, it is most important to understand how things work, and then because of that understanding, the right development will be developed. Understanding come from listening to the right people, and wise consideration. I think we should develop all sorts of kusala, however we can, but I don't think we can do this well (or better) without better understanding. kom 23205 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:53am Subject: Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Kom and all, I have some questions for you: What is the model given in the abhidhamma as you describe it? What kind of phenomena do people try to understand with this model? How do you know that the minds rise and fall extremely rapidly? Do you measure the speed or frequency? How does the speed (or frequency?) of the minds rising and falling have to do with the Buddha's teaching? You say that the teaching brings knowledge. What is the nature of this knowledge? In other words, what does one know with this knowledge? You comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Dave, > [snip] > > In the model given in the abhidhamma, the mind experiences > one object at a time. When we see, we don't hear. When we > think about what we see or what we hear, we neither see nor > hear. This maybe contradictory (to some people) to our > experiences: this is only because the minds rise and fall > away so extremely rapidly that it seems that the hearing and > the seeing happen at the same time. > > The Buddha didn't teach about the interaction of the brains > and the sense input, so we stay mostly off this topic. It > is not taught, and probably is not essential to attaining > nibbana... > > All ultimate realities are conditioned. They cannot rise > without causes, and they must rise when the causes are > complete. This is how the mind works. When there are > conditions for seeing, seeing must occur. When there are > conditions for thinking, thinking must occur. However, not > knowing the conditionalities of all things, we have the idea > (gross, subtle, or very subtle) that "we" make or will these > things to happen. You can move your hands, no? How does > that happen? Is it you or there are conditions for the hand > to be moved? Do we ever have the situations when we want > things happen a certain way, but things go other way anyway? > The mind cannot rise without causes, and they must rise when > the causes are complete. The mind rises one at a time, > conditioned by all other conditioning realities. > > The Buddha teaching is truly marvelous and amazing. I know > no other person who gives teachings that are so true, > conceptually and ultimately, on all the different topics > (that I can see for myself). The teaching brings knowledge. > With knowledge, we can begin to truly turn away from > ignorance and wrong-understanding, and eventually from > attachment and grief. That is the miracle of the Buddha's > teaching. > > kom 23206 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, Pali subco Dear Larry, Jim and all, Do not expect much from me, this is only a trial, maybe off the mark. Larry, you know some Pali. If you like more, join Pali yahoo. Everyday we have a simple exercise, with translation. It is a relaxing way of learning. Subcommentary to the Visuddhimagga. (See below for text without Pali) Jim writes: Nina: First a few words: vaara: turn, round, opportunity, (actual) moment (that presents itself). It is a key word here, seems contrary to book knowledge. It could be the moment presenting itself? gantha: bond, fetter, but in later Pali also: book. sajjhaayati: to study. sajjhaaya: study. After aaramma.na, object, we have: -ika, this makes the word into an adjective (Warder p. 187, bahubbiihi compound). yathaa ta.m: as it is, as if, as. sambhavati: to be produced. To be present. paricaya m. : practice. pagu.na: well practised, competent. sandhaa: connection. ~naayaa: method. logic (PED gives: ~naayaa gantha: book on logic.) ****** Text with Pali: > katha.m pana vi~n~naa.na.m lakkha.napa.tivedha.m paapetii ti? But how does consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) bring about the penetration of the characteristics? > pa~n~naaya dassitamaggena. By way of the path seen by wisdom. lakkha.naaramma.nikavipassanaaya hi anekavaara.m lakkha.naani pa.tivijjhitva pa.tivijjhitvaa pavattamaanaaya pagu.nabhaavato paricayavasena > ~naa.navippayuttacittena pi vipassanaa sambhavati, There is also insight with the consciousness that is unaccompanied by understanding, because the practice (paricaya) has become skilled (pagu.nabhaavato, by skilled development) by insight that has as object the characteristics (lakkha.naaramma.nikavipassanaaya), and is evolving (pavattamaanaaya) after it has penetrated again and again the characteristics at various moments (presenting themselves); yathaa ta.m pagu.nassa ganthassa sajjhaayane ~naayaagataa pi vaaraa na > vi~n~naayanti. even as in the case of someone who is skilled at methodical study from books, the actual moments are not discerned by him. lakkha.napa.tivedhan ti ca lakkha.naana.m aarammanakara.namatta.m sandhaaya vutta.m, na pa.tivijjhana.m. As to the "penetration of characteristics", and what is said in connection of merely making the characteristics the object, this is not penetration. ****** English text: But how does consciousness bring about the penetration of the characteristics? By way of the path seen by wisdom. There is also insight with the consciousness that is unaccompanied by understanding, because the practice has become skilled by insight that has as object the characteristics and is evolving after it has penetrated again and again the characteristics at various occasions (presenting themselves); even as in the case of someone who is skilled at methodical study from books, the actual moments are not discerned by him. As to "penetration of characteristics", and what is said in connection of merely making the characteristics the object, this is not penetration. ***** Remarks: In the Visuddhimagga I see the definition of pativedha as: penetration for the four noble Truths. The penetration of nibbana, the cessation of dukkha is accomplished at the moment of enlightenment. However, this is a long rpocess. First the three general characteristics have to be realized again and again. Even when the characteristics are the object this does not mean that they are penetrated, that their true nature is known. When insight is being developed, there are many processes of citta succeeding one another, and in between processes of citta accompanied by panna there are also processes of citta without panna, but these can still have the characteristics as object, because cittas arise and fall away very rapidly. And also such moments can be reckoned as being with vipassana, because it is being developed time and again, and they are alternated with cittas that realize the characteristics. There are moments of intellectual understanding, book study, thinking of the characteristics, but then the characteristics are not penetrated at the actual moments they appear. Nina. 23207 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] I wish all of you Dear Vital, Thank you for your good wishes to all of us. I am glad to see you hgere again. See below. op 29-06-2003 20:14 schreef vital op vitalmoors@h...: > The fact we meet on out way, are facts... we cannot change them > The only thing we can do is accept them and try to make the best of it. > We can not change other person, we can not change the reality > The only thing we can change is ourself, the manner we see te reality and > the manner we act. N: I like this as a reminder, because we often want the other person to be different from what he is, and this is not realistic. It is a source of conflicts in the circle of relatives and friends. We cannot change realities, how true. We like what we see or hear to be different but this is not possible. The dukkha of life. V: All what we do will rebounce at us... > So let do good things.... N: Very well expressed: kamma and vipaka. V: We don't have to play a movie, we can be who we are... > You can act as you are, dont hide things for others... > If you can lose your mask and accept who you are... nothing can disturb you > in giving love and friendship to all people. N: A good reminder to be sincere, not pretending to be better than we are, this is conceit. There are moments that we do pretend to be better than we really are, but we should be honest to ourselves and realize such moments. Thank you for your message with good reminders, Nina. 23208 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Inquiry to Nina... Dear Kio, Thank you for your kind and pleasant letter with your questions which are very good. I shall take my time and answer a few at a time. Appreciating, Nina. op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: I am > reading your books of `survey' and `daily life' I found on the net. > In the meantime, if you can respond to my question at your leisure, > that would be most helpful. 23209 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 3:10pm Subject: Re: Inquiry to Nina... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Azita, > > I thought of you the other day when buying 'the best' cones at the > Valley markets. I've put my son onto them as well. Thanks.:-) > dear Chris, I'm wondering what 'cones' are - maybe I have shown you how to choose the best, but I must call it something different, bec. I don't recognise 'cones'. > I don't see how sitting and watching the breath is any different to > slowly, and with concentration, doing any other set practice - yoga, > tai chi, jogging etc. If you view it as a wellness tool, and it has > beneficial effects, why not try it for a while? You are not seeing > it as a necessary step for a 'self' to achieve enlightenment, and you > would not neglect contact with admirable friends, hearing and > reflecting on the true Dhamma, and practice in accordance with the > Dhamma. I think if sitting in any form is helpful to you - just do > it, don't stress about it. :-) Thanks for this. No amount of stressing is going to make it right practice anyway, is it. Even while sitting cross-legged doing a breathing practice, there can be moments of awareness of no- self. I liked RobK's post [22897], and I also found it very helpful. I guess concern about 'wrong practice' can be known for what it is, maybe dosa, maybe not, only panna can know and that's really what the study of the dhamma is all about, to develop panna to a degree where defilements are eradicated. mmmmmmmm! By the way, did we ever sort out the > question tossed around at Cooran about 'Is Nibbana another term for > annihilation'? > No, but I've decided it's a non question, meaning I don't believe Nibbana is another term for annihilation. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 23210 From: Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 4:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, Pali subco Hi Nina, I'm too old to learn a language but this makes sense to me. Thanks very much. I would just like to expand a little on the section on learning: There is also insight with the consciousness that is unaccompanied by understanding, because the practice (paricaya) has become skilled (pagu.nabhaavato, by skilled development) by insight that has as object the characteristics (lakkha.naaramma.nikavipassanaaya), and is evolving (pavattamaanaaya) after it has penetrated again and again the characteristics at various moments (presenting themselves); yathaa ta.m pagu.nassa ganthassa sajjhaayane ~naayaagataa pi vaaraa na vi~n~naayanti. even as in the case of someone who is skilled at methodical study from books, the actual moments are not discerned by him. L: Take the case of someone who has studied mathematics (skilled in the study of books) and penetrated the significance of various formulas again and again. After a while his consciousness will automatically see the significance of a formula without the specfic insight of a moment of understanding. This is a case of consciousness penetrating without panna cetasika. There is realization of the significance of a characteristic because of many moments in the past of direct understanding. I agree penetration of any of the three characteristics is to realize that the object is not worth grasping. Eventually this culminates in a path moment that makes a big difference, but until then moments of "tender insight" make a little difference. When impermanence, dukkha, or anatta is an object of consciousness and a different kind of understanding that does not result in relinquishment then that is not penetration in this sense. This could be abstract or direct understanding. A farmer could understand impermanence as a time to plant and a time to harvest. Larry 23211 From: bodhi2500 Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 4:44pm Subject: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Steve and All > > Thanks for these quotes. I found the first to be especially relevant > to this thread. To my reading, it says that while characteristics > are real, they are not 'dhammas' that arise in this world (they are > not 'clung to' fundamental phenomena). Perhaps the term 'modes' in > the passage neatly sums it up. > > I had more difficlty with the second passage. I couldn't quite catch > the point the author was making. If anyone wanted to give an > explanation, that would be much appreciated. > > Jon My understanding of the below passage is; that because the characteristics of arising,decay and aniccata are not paramattha Dhammas, then those characteristics have no characteristics of arising,decay and aniccata. Steve > --- bodhi2500 wrote: > > And from `Buddhist Analysis of Matter' by Y.Karunadasa. > > > > When a rupa-dhamma originates, it is called rupassa jati; when it > > subsists (decay), it is called rupassa jarata; when it perishes, it > > is called rupassa aniccata. In addition to the rupa-dhamma which > > originates, subsists (decay) and perishes, there are no > > rupa-dhammas > > answering to the names :rupassa jati, rupassa jarata and rupassa > > aniccata. > > If these characteristics, too, were postulated as real entities, > > then it would be necessary to postulate another set of (secondary) > > characteristics to account for their own origination, subsistence > > and > > cessation. And these (secondary) characteristics would, in turn, > > require another set of (secondary secondary) characteristics to > > account for their origination, etc. In this way it would lead to a > > process ad infinitum. And it is in order to avoid this problem of > > infinite regress that the characteristics are not recognized as > > entities distinct from, and as real as, the dhammas which they > > characterize. This is the significance of the statement made in the > > Mohavicchedani: "It is not correct to assume that origination > > originates, decay decays and cessation ceases, because such an > > assumption leads to the (fallacy) of infinite > > regress(anava.t.thaana)" 23212 From: Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 0:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi, Victor (and Kom) - Victor, I share your interest in a response to this matter. ;-) I have never quite seen why we should *care* whether there are 17 cittas per single rupa! What does that information, even directly seen, should it actually be both true and observable, do for us? Why do we need to see, fully and directly, anything other than the impersonality, insubstantiality, inconstancy, and unsatisfactoriness of things? With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/30/03 12:54:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Hi Kom and all, > > I have some questions for you: > > What is the model given in the abhidhamma as you describe it? What > kind of phenomena do people try to understand with this model? > > How do you know that the minds rise and fall extremely rapidly? Do > you measure the speed or frequency? > > How does the speed (or frequency?) of the minds rising and falling > have to do with the Buddha's teaching? > > You say that the teaching brings knowledge. What is the nature of > this knowledge? In other words, what does one know with this > knowledge? > > You comment is appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23213 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 5:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, Pali subco Dear Nina (also Larry and Jon), > Dear Larry, Jim and all, > Do not expect much from me, this is only a trial, maybe off the > mark. Thanks for your translation and general remarks. I'm still not clear on the Pali, so what follows is my attempt at an alternative translation with some notes. I haven't tried to correct anything you translated as nothing stands out as definitely needing a correction but there's room for some improvement. [...] > lakkha.naaramma.nikavipassanaaya hi anekavaara.m lakkha.naani > pa.tivijjhitvaa pa.tivijjhitvaa pavattamaanaaya pagu.nabhaavato > paricayavasena ~naa.navippayuttacittena pi vipassanaa sambhavati, > > There is also insight with the consciousness that is unaccompanied > by understanding, because the practice (paricaya) has become >\skilled (pagu.nabhaavato, by skilled development) by insight that > has as object the characteristics (lakkha.naaramma.nikavipassanaaya), > and is evolving (pavattamaanaaya) after it has penetrated again and > again the characteristics at various moments (presenting themselves); For insight also comes to increase with the consciousness dissociated from knowledge by the influence of (repeated) practice owing to the skilful nature of the insight (having characteristics as object) occurring after having repeatedly penetrated the characteristics many times, [Instead of 'there is' for sambhavati, I have 'comes to increase' (not in PED). This is based on the Saddaniti definition: sambhavatiiti su.t.thu bhavati, vuddhi.m viruu.lhi.m vepulla.m aapajjati --p.4. I find this portion to be the most difficult one to make sense of and I'm afraid my translation fails to convey a clear meaning. I think the problem lies with understanding the syntax of 'by influence of ... practice', 'owing to the competent nature', and 'of the insight ... many times' and also which of the several meanings of 'pagu.na-' and 'paricaya-' really applies here.] > yathaa ta.m pagu.nassa ganthassa sajjhaayane ~naayaagataa pi vaaraa > na vi~n~naayanti. > > even as in the case of someone who is skilled at methodical study > from books, the actual moments are not discerned by him. as, for instance, in the studying of a skilful textbook, the times come to the right method are also not known. [~naayaagataa = ~naaya+aagata, cp. Skt. nyaayaagata (defined by Apte as 'rightly got'). It appears that comparison is being made to kusala consciousness without knowledge. Although insights into the meaning of things stated in the book are arising, they go unnoticed by the ordinary consciousness.] > lakkha.napa.tivedhan ti ca lakkha.naana.m aarammanakara.namatta.m > sandhaaya vutta.m, na pa.tivijjhana.m. > > As to the "penetration of characteristics", and what is said in > connection of merely making the characteristics the object, this > is not penetration. And "the penetration of the characteristics" is stated in reference to merely making the characteristics the object, not to penetrating (the characteristics). [When I first read this in Pali I thought Dhammapala was disagreeing with Buddhaghosa or, at any rate, downplaying his comment. In spite of still not being able to quite grasp what Dhammapala is really getting at, I think it would be fair to say that the actual penetration of the characteristics can never occur in a consciousness dissociated from panna. Perhaps what can occur is that while a ~naa.navippayuttacitta can have general characteristics as object it is possible that using this as a support a subsequent ~naa.nasampayuttacitta can penetrate the characteristic. So it's not so much consciousness bringing about the penetration per se but in helping panna to do so.] Best wishes, Jim 23214 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Howard, I hope you don't mind me replying to you separately from Victor. It is easier to write shorter email! > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 4:59 PM > > Hi, Victor (and Kom) - > > Victor, I share your interest in a > response to this matter. ;-) I have > never quite seen why we should *care* whether > there are 17 cittas per single > rupa! What does that information, even directly > seen, should it actually be > both true and observable, do for us? Why do we > need to see, fully and directly, > anything other than the impersonality, > insubstantiality, inconstancy, and > unsatisfactoriness of things? > Let me ask you a question Howard. In the tipitakas (even without counting the Abhidhamma), there are many stories about different things including heaven, hell, hungry ghosts, demons, characteristics of a good wife and of a householder, etc. It's not, on the surface, about realities and the 5 kandhas. Why do you think the Buddha mentioned all these stories? He said he did not speak unless 5 factors are met: true, useful (referring to nibbana), appropriate with time and person, with captivating speech, with Metta (and another thing which slipped my mind) Do you know that the Buddha's father reached Sotapanna on hearing about the benefits of gifts to the monks. We hear the same story, but yet we haven't attained the same wisdom as the king. Why is this? I personally have a strong faith that the Buddha teachings are useful to the person receiving the teaching: it just happens that we aren't exactly the person receiving the teaching. kom 23215 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:29pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Victor, > -----Original Message----- > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:53 AM > > > Hi Kom and all, > > I have some questions for you: > > What is the model given in the abhidhamma as you > describe it? In short, the 4 noble truths. > What > kind of phenomena do people try to understand > with this model? To first understand dhamma as dhamma, that there are nothing beyond the 5 kandhas in and out of this body. > How do you know that the minds rise and fall > extremely rapidly? Do > you measure the speed or frequency? The Buddha/the ancient commentaries described it. How do you know there is hell and heaven? How about next life and previous life? How about beings that are spontaneously reborn? > How does the speed (or frequency?) of the minds > rising and falling > have to do with the Buddha's teaching? There are stories about the Bodhisatta as a peacock who could fly so fast he looks like a blur. The king asked the Bodhisatta if there is anything that is faster, and he said the mind. If we remember that the goal of studying (sikha) is to understand the current moment better. We shouldn't be bothered by the teachings that we don't yet understand (or appreciate). The Buddha speaks what is useful. > > You say that the teaching brings knowledge. What > is the nature of > this knowledge? In other words, what does one > know with this > knowledge? > Panna and wisdom is a nama (mentality), just like anger or attachments. It knows its objects, which can be either nama and rupa. We often hear panna described as the reality that penetrates the true characteristics of other realities, comprehension, all-around knowledge, bright lamp (pradip), bright light, vision... By knowing the characteristics of the true realities, we begin to become untangled from the wrongs view of self, wrong views of permanence, wrong views of sukha, and wrong views of beauty. kom 23216 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 1:36am Subject: Azita - Cones was (Re: Inquiry to Nina...) Dear Azita, Cones come in little boxes of six or eight - I think you said Darshan from India were the best, you remember ... the ones with the sandal wood fragrance we bought at the Queensland University market day, together with the carved wooden burner, when we went to hear the lecture by the Ven. Bhikkhu Professor Dhammavihari. I can't think what else you would call them - it has 'cones' printed on the box (round pyramids?). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" > > > dear Chris, > I'm wondering what 'cones' are - maybe I have shown you how > to choose the best, but I must call it something different, bec. I > don't recognise 'cones'. > 23217 From: Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi, Kom - In a message dated 7/1/03 2:15:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > I hope you don't mind me replying to you separately from > Victor. It is easier to write shorter email! > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's fine. I'm sure your comments are of interest to Victor and all the other list members as well. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > >Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 4:59 PM > > > >Hi, Victor (and Kom) - > > > > Victor, I share your interest in a > >response to this matter. ;-) I have > >never quite seen why we should *care* whether > >there are 17 cittas per single > >rupa! What does that information, even directly > >seen, should it actually be > >both true and observable, do for us? Why do we > >need to see, fully and directly, > >anything other than the impersonality, > >insubstantiality, inconstancy, and > >unsatisfactoriness of things? > > > > Let me ask you a question Howard. In the tipitakas (even > without counting the Abhidhamma), there are many stories > about different things including heaven, hell, hungry > ghosts, demons, characteristics of a good wife and of a > householder, etc. It's not, on the surface, about realities > and the 5 kandhas. Why do you think the Buddha mentioned > all these stories? He said he did not speak unless 5 > factors are met: true, useful (referring to nibbana), > appropriate with time and person, with captivating speech, > with Metta (and another thing which slipped my mind) > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The realms of possible birth are the consequences of volitional action, and are clearly of importance to people. Likewise important to us are the proper ways to conduct our lives. So, now, I have answered your question. I still find unanswered by you the importance of the so precise relative speed of cittas compared to rupas. In the Sutta Pitaka, the Buddha, I believe just once, in response to a query, pointed out that the mind shouldn't be taken for a self, a self being generally understood as something permanent, because mind changes even faster than form. Now that was a good, brief teaching directed to a specific inquiry, making a true but informal point, and leaving it at that. Then the Abhidhamma scholastics, it seems to me, picked up on this, and presented a "fact" that cittas go by 17 times as fast as rupas. First of all, how they did the clocking is an interesting question! But that aside, and aside from the fact that 17 is my favorite prime number ;-), I still question the importance of this numerical information. The Buddha had made a good point (he was the best of teachers!), and the scholastics then took it and ruined it, as I see it, by establishing a useless, dry, and lifeless "fact" - a piece of "scientific" data comparable to the medieval Christian determinations of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin! ------------------------------------------------------ > > Do you know that the Buddha's father reached Sotapanna on > hearing about the benefits of gifts to the monks. We hear > the same story, but yet we haven't attained the same wisdom > as the king. Why is this? > > I personally have a strong faith that the Buddha teachings > are useful to the person receiving the teaching: it just > happens that we aren't exactly the person receiving the > teaching. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Me too. I just do not believe that the Buddha ever said anything special about the number 17. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > kom > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23218 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 7:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Quantum Theory is Abhidhamma! Azita and All --- gazita2002 wrote: > dear Kom, ... > I understand you are 'standing in' for Sarah, > while she is tramping around the Swiss alps. > Good work, Kom, so important, I benefit as I'm > sure others do also. > Patience, courage and good cheer. > Azita Well said, Azita. Kom is doing a great job, and Sarah and I are very much appreciating reading his (and others') posts. Jon 23219 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 6:49am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:32 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > I still find unanswered by you the > importance of the so precise > relative speed of cittas compared to rupas. In > the Sutta Pitaka, the Buddha, I > believe just once, in response to a query, > pointed out that the mind shouldn't be > taken for a self, a self being generally > understood as something permanent, > because mind changes even faster than form. Now > that was a good, brief teaching > directed to a specific inquiry, making a true but > informal point, and leaving > it at that. Then the Abhidhamma scholastics, it > seems to me, picked up on this, > and presented a "fact" that cittas go by 17 times > as fast as rupas. First of > all, how they did the clocking is an interesting > question! But that aside, and > aside from the fact that 17 is my favorite prime > number ;-), I still > question the importance of this numerical > information. The Buddha had made a good > point (he was the best of teachers!), and the > scholastics then took it and ruined > it, as I see it, by establishing a useless, dry, > and lifeless "fact" - a > piece of "scientific" data comparable to the > medieval Christian determinations of > how many angels can dance on the head of a pin! K. Sujin actually said many time that the teachings, both in the Abhidhamma and in the Sutta, are beyond the realm of being verified by us. Even Sariputta, one most excelled in wisdom, still needs to ask/listen to the Buddha to progress in wisdom (even after having reached arahatship). I did not answer you directly the first time because I hope that an indirect answer would suffice (which I still think it is): a teaching may not be useful to you, but may be useful to somebody else. As you view the abhidhamma as being something "extra" to the Buddha's teaching, I think that regardless of how I explain it, as long as it is grounded from the Abhidhamma, what I say would be a wash (for you). I will give you a couple of reasons, which I am sure you would disagree, so this is mostly for somebody else. Many details in the Abhidhamma, including the 17 citta process and the more subtle details of pacaya (conditionality) give a person a sense (and understanding) that there are only causes and effects. The dhammas roll on uninterrupted regardless of whether "we" want to do anything about it. The speed of the citta shows you how it is impossible to be perfectly mindful of what appears (except for the Arahat). When a dhamma appears, there are already attachments and grieves, even the most subtle kinds, until we accumulate conditions that this is no longer the case. It also teaches one to be careful. When we may think that right now, we are at peace and mindful, that because the citta proceeds at its own speed, there are bound to be attachments to the dhammas. For example, some people believe that the volitional factor is important in the development of the path, but we can see it for ourselves that when "we" intend to have mindfulness, is that attachment or is that wisdom? Knowing (in general) the speed and the subtleties of the mind helps one to be careful and to investigate thoroughly --- there is already attachment, the samudhaya of all becomings, to results, and one doesn't even know it. Another reason why this might be useful to others is because some people like things to be more concrete rather than more general. Hearing a general teaching (that the mind is fast) may be insufficient for the person to hold the person attention, but giving them the specifics grounds them to the fact that the mind is fast. I am sure that being a teacher, you must have found that people are different. For some, being general is sufficient for them, for others, unless the specifics are given, they are not quite satisfied. kom 23220 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 8:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Kom and Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 6:49 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Just on this point, > Another reason why this might be useful to others is because > some people like things to be more concrete rather than more > general. Hearing a general teaching (that the mind is fast) > may be insufficient for the person to hold the person > attention, but giving them the specifics grounds them to the > fact that the mind is fast. I am sure that being a teacher, > you must have found that people are different. For some, > being general is sufficient for them, for others, unless the > specifics are given, they are not quite satisfied. I think it's true, just generally, that the tipitaka's many different modes of expression are more or less useful to different individuals mainly because of sankhaarakhandha. The Buddha gave this advice a brahman that I think is applicable to laypeople today: "When, for one who speaks of what has been heard... what has been sensed... what has been cognized, unskillful mental qualities increase and skillful mental qualities decrease, then that sort of thing should not be spoken about. But when, for one who speaks of what has been cognized, unskillful mental qualities decrease and skillful mental qualities increase, then that sort of thing should be spoken about." Anguttara Nikaya IV.183 Suta Sutta On What is Heard (To Vassakara the brahman, the minister to the king of Magadha) It's up to the individual to judge what the many modes of expression in the tipitaka --jatakas, abhidhamma or whatever--lead, for that person, in discussions, to the decrease of unskillful mental qualities and the increase of skillful mental qualities. Some of us on the list have come at least tentatively to the conclusion that discussion of the abhidhamma, commentaries and so on lead to the decrease of unskillful mental qualities and the increase of skillful mental qualities and others have come to the opposite conclusion. Personally, I see no virtue in the disparagement of either point of view. I, however, come here for discussion of abhdihamma. mike 23221 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 9:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Kom, Thank you for your reply. The mind is fickle, unruly, agitated, not calm, swift, and unsteady, if left unguarded, untamed, uncontrolled. A guarded, tamed, well- directed mind brings happiness. The Four Noble Truths are not model. Understanding dhamma as dhamma, that there are nothing beyond the 5 kandhas in and out of this body is not the Four Noble Truths. It might sound dogmatic, but Kom, knowing that there is hell and heaven, that there are beings that are spontaneously reborn is right view. How do I know that there is hell and heaven, that there are beings that are spontaneously reborn? I know it from the teaching of the Buddha. Why do I see it as right view? Because it is beneficial, wholesome, conducive to the cessation of dukkha. You said that the goal of studying (sikha) is to understand the current moment better. Do you mean that the goal is to realize liberation, the cessation of dukkha? You said that we shouldn't be bothered by the teachings that we don't yet understand (or appreciate). What teachings are you talking about? Thank you again for the reply. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:53 AM > > > > > > Hi Kom and all, > > > > I have some questions for you: > > > > What is the model given in the abhidhamma as you > > describe it? > > In short, the 4 noble truths. > > > What > > kind of phenomena do people try to understand > > with this model? > > To first understand dhamma as dhamma, that there are nothing > beyond the 5 kandhas in and out of this body. > > > How do you know that the minds rise and fall > > extremely rapidly? Do > > you measure the speed or frequency? > > The Buddha/the ancient commentaries described it. How do > you know there is hell and heaven? How about next life and > previous life? How about beings that are spontaneously > reborn? > > > How does the speed (or frequency?) of the minds > > rising and falling > > have to do with the Buddha's teaching? > > There are stories about the Bodhisatta as a peacock who > could fly so fast he looks like a blur. The king asked the > Bodhisatta if there is anything that is faster, and he said > the mind. > > If we remember that the goal of studying (sikha) is to > understand the current moment better. We shouldn't be > bothered by the teachings that we don't yet understand (or > appreciate). The Buddha speaks what is useful. > > > > > You say that the teaching brings knowledge. What > > is the nature of > > this knowledge? In other words, what does one > > know with this > > knowledge? > > > > Panna and wisdom is a nama (mentality), just like anger or > attachments. It knows its objects, which can be either nama > and rupa. We often hear panna described as the reality that > penetrates the true characteristics of other realities, > comprehension, all-around knowledge, bright lamp (pradip), > bright light, vision... > > By knowing the characteristics of the true realities, we > begin to become untangled from the wrongs view of self, > wrong views of permanence, wrong views of sukha, and wrong > views of beauty. > > kom 23222 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 9:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization [Howard] Dear Howard, You write: "Then the Abhidhamma scholastics, it seems to me, picked up on this, and presented a 'fact' that cittas go by 17 times as fast as rupas. First of all, how they did the clocking is an interesting question!" Dan replies: I don't think there was any clocking, so to speak. Instead, this "17" was inferred from piecing together proximity conditions enumerated in Patthana -- at least that's what U Narada writes in his "Guide to Conditional Relations, vol 1." This makes sense to me, but I'm not convinced that it is always 17. Does it matter? Well, the exact numbers surely don't, but what the mind goes through when processing rupas is important. Howard writes: "I still question the importance of this numerical information." Dan replies: I can think of a lot of better things to do than to question the importance of this numerical information! "Just note 'papañca, papañca' and direct the mind back to the primary object of meditation." [BTW: Did you ever do a Mahasi-style meditation retreat?] Dan 23223 From: dwlemen Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 9:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Kom, > I will give you a couple of reasons, which I am sure you > would disagree, so this is mostly for somebody else. Many > details in the Abhidhamma, including the 17 citta process > and the more subtle details of pacaya (conditionality) give > a person a sense (and understanding) that there are only > causes and effects. The dhammas roll on uninterrupted > regardless of whether "we" want to do anything about it. > The speed of the citta shows you how it is impossible to be > perfectly mindful of what appears (except for the Arahat). > When a dhamma appears, there are already attachments and > grieves, even the most subtle kinds, until we accumulate > conditions that this is no longer the case. > Where does Right Effort fit in here? It sounds like you are describing a fixed, deterministic system. My understanding was that, reality was actually a complex mixture of fixed cause / effect, and present moment decisions (hence "free will"). Peace, Dave 23224 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 9:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Mike, Kom, and Howard, and all, Regardless the different mode of expression, the question is: Is the conceptual construct of the Abhidhamma Pitaka the Buddha's teaching? Is an elaborate cognitive model of mental process the Dhamma? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Kom and Howard, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kom Tukovinit > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 6:49 AM > Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > Just on this point, > > > Another reason why this might be useful to others is because > > some people like things to be more concrete rather than more > > general. Hearing a general teaching (that the mind is fast) > > may be insufficient for the person to hold the person > > attention, but giving them the specifics grounds them to the > > fact that the mind is fast. I am sure that being a teacher, > > you must have found that people are different. For some, > > being general is sufficient for them, for others, unless the > > specifics are given, they are not quite satisfied. > > I think it's true, just generally, that the tipitaka's many different modes > of expression are more or less useful to different individuals mainly > because of sankhaarakhandha. > > The Buddha gave this advice a brahman that I think is applicable to > laypeople today: > > "When, for one who speaks of what has been heard... what has been sensed... > what has been cognized, unskillful mental qualities increase and skillful > mental qualities decrease, then that sort of thing should not be spoken > about. But when, for one who speaks of what has been cognized, unskillful > mental qualities decrease and skillful mental qualities increase, then that > sort of thing should be spoken about." > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.183 > > Suta Sutta > On What is Heard > (To Vassakara the brahman, the minister to the king of Magadha) > > It's up to the individual to judge what the many modes of expression in the > tipitaka --jatakas, abhidhamma or whatever--lead, for that person, in > discussions, to the decrease of unskillful mental qualities and the increase > of skillful mental qualities. > > Some of us on the list have come at least tentatively to the conclusion that > discussion of the abhidhamma, commentaries and so on lead to the decrease of > unskillful mental qualities and the increase of skillful mental qualities > and others have come to the opposite conclusion. Personally, I see no > virtue in the disparagement of either point of view. I, however, come here > for discussion of abhdihamma. > > mike 23225 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 9:58am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Victor, > -----Original Message----- > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:55 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > > Hi Mike, Kom, and Howard, and all, > > Regardless the different mode of expression, the question is: > > Is the conceptual construct of the Abhidhamma Pitaka the Buddha's > teaching? > > Is an elaborate cognitive model of mental process the Dhamma? > > Peace, > Victor > We keep coming that to this question! One camp says yes, and the other says no. Oh, well, go figure... kom 23226 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 10:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Kom and all, And it comes down to one question: What is the Buddha's teaching? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Victor, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:55 AM > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > > > > > Hi Mike, Kom, and Howard, and all, > > > > Regardless the different mode of expression, the question is: > > > > Is the conceptual construct of the Abhidhamma Pitaka the Buddha's > > teaching? > > > > Is an elaborate cognitive model of mental process the Dhamma? > > > > Peace, > > Victor > > > > We keep coming that to this question! One camp says yes, and the other says > no. Oh, well, go figure... > > kom 23227 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 10:08am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Dave, > -----Original Message----- > From: dwlemen [mailto:dwlemen@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:50 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > > Dear Kom, > > > > I will give you a couple of reasons, which I am sure you > > would disagree, so this is mostly for somebody else. Many > > details in the Abhidhamma, including the 17 citta process > > and the more subtle details of pacaya (conditionality) give > > a person a sense (and understanding) that there are only > > causes and effects. The dhammas roll on uninterrupted > > regardless of whether "we" want to do anything about it. > > The speed of the citta shows you how it is impossible to be > > perfectly mindful of what appears (except for the Arahat). > > When a dhamma appears, there are already attachments and > > grieves, even the most subtle kinds, until we accumulate > > conditions that this is no longer the case. > > > > Where does Right Effort fit in here? It sounds like you are > describing a fixed, deterministic system. My understanding was that, > reality was actually a complex mixture of fixed cause / effect, and > present moment decisions (hence "free will"). > > Whenever there is mindfulness, at that moment there is right effort. Whenever there is attachment, at the moment there is the wrong effort. Right effort supports the other path factors, but it too is conditioned by other causes. What are the causes of right efforts? Wanting more right efforts? Regardless of whether or not one wants the right efforts, if there are conditions for right efforts to arise, it arises. Cause and effect. How can anything be free if everything is conditioned (by so many factors)? Is it deterministic? For very few, it actually is. The Buddha was predicted 4 aeons ago, by another Buddha, that he would become a sammasambuddha - it becomes deterministic 4 eons ago for him, even though he had strived for buddhahood much longer than that. For most, it's interactions of kamma, accumulations, right efforts ( :-) ) and other conditions (weather, position in life, etc.) kom 23228 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 10:09am Subject: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 1 Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 1 The Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² defines the perfection of equanimity, upekkhå, as follows: Equanimity has the characteristic of promoting the aspect of neutrality; its function is to see things impartially; its manifestation is the subsiding of attraction and repulsion; reflection upon the fact that all beings inherit the results of their own kamma is its proximate cause. The perfection of equanimity is evenmindedness, it is non-disturbance by controversial conduct of people or by trying events. If we do not habitually develop satipatthåna, we are easily affected by attachment and aversion, and the citta is not calm. We encounter outside objects which cause sadness and distress. Our unhappy mood is conditioned by unpleasant objects which appear through eyes, ears, nose, tongue and bodysense. People who are free from sorrow are unaffected by attachment and aversion with regard to people and events, and this means that they have developed the perfection of equanimity. When people see someone who kills a snake, they believe that they have loving- kindness and compassion for the snake that is being killed, but in reality they are disturbed by aversion towards the person who kills the snake. One should be aware and consider the citta at that moment: what type of citta arises when one thinks of the person who kills the snake? We may not have loving-kindness, but then, we can have equanimity when we realize that everyone receives the results of his deeds. When kusala cittas arise there may be loving kindness and there may also be compassion, one feels sorry for the person who commits akusala kamma, since he will receive the result of akusala kamma. When equanimity arises, we shall not be disturbed or utter unsuitable speech to someone who commits akusala kamma. Loving-kindness or equanimity arise with kusala citta. We should not take akusala for kusala. We should not believe that akusala dhamma is good and that we should utter strong language to the person who commits akusala kamma. The citta which is disturbed is akusala citta. If we develop paññå we can know the characteristic of the citta that is stable, unaffected by attachment and aversion. Then we can further develop the perfection of equanimity. Wise attention, yoniso manasikåra, is essential. When we listen to the Dhamma, we may be inclined to think that we should act in a particular way so that we have wise attention or can abandon defilements. However, if we understand realities as non-self, the question whether we should act in a particular way will be solved. If we do not reflect on the practice of the Bodhisatta in each of his lives and if we do not evaluate our own practice in this life and compare it with his practice, we shall not know that it will take an endlessly long time to abandon defilements. 23229 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 10:10am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Victor Again, the 4 noble truths. But what are the four noble truths? Always the same, but yet very different. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:04 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > > Hi Kom and all, > > And it comes down to one question: > > What is the Buddha's teaching? > > Peace, > Victor 23230 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 10:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Kom and Dave, The Buddha did not teach right effort with a philosophical view of determinism or free will. The view of determinism or free will is irrelevant. What is right effort? To quote from Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8 Magga-vibhanga Sutta An Analysis of the Path http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-008.html "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Dave, [snip] > > > > Where does Right Effort fit in here? It sounds like you are > > describing a fixed, deterministic system. My understanding was that, > > reality was actually a complex mixture of fixed cause / effect, and > > present moment decisions (hence "free will"). > > > > > > Whenever there is mindfulness, at that moment there is right effort. > Whenever there is attachment, at the moment there is the wrong effort. > Right effort supports the other path factors, but it too is conditioned by > other causes. What are the causes of right efforts? Wanting more right > efforts? Regardless of whether or not one wants the right efforts, if there > are conditions for right efforts to arise, it arises. Cause and effect. > How can anything be free if everything is conditioned (by so many factors)? > Is it deterministic? For very few, it actually is. The Buddha was > predicted 4 aeons ago, by another Buddha, that he would become a > sammasambuddha - it becomes deterministic 4 eons ago for him, even though he > had strived for buddhahood much longer than that. > > For most, it's interactions of kamma, accumulations, right efforts ( :-) ) > and other conditions (weather, position in life, etc.) > > kom 23231 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 10:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Kom and all, Then let's focus on the four noble truths, not some conceptual model/construct of mental/cognitive process. What are the four noble truths? Dukkha, the origination of dukkha, the cessation of dukkha, the way leading to the cessation of dukkha. Thank you for your reply. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Hi Victor > > Again, the 4 noble truths. But what are the four noble truths? Always the > same, but yet very different. > > kom > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:04 AM > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > > > > > Hi Kom and all, > > > > And it comes down to one question: > > > > What is the Buddha's teaching? > > > > Peace, > > Victor 23232 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 9:57am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Victor, > -----Original Message----- > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:17 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > > You said that the goal of studying (sikha) is to understand the > current moment better. Do you mean that the goal is to realize > liberation, the cessation of dukkha? Yes, Victor, but we all have to start somewhere. Some people think that this realization can be now and immediate, but they don't know that thinking about it and realizing it are two very different thing. Understanding that there is nothing (that can be realized now) beyond the 5 kandhas are the first step toward this liberation. > > You said that we shouldn't be bothered by the teachings that we > don't yet understand (or appreciate). What teachings are you > talking about? One follows... > > > > > > How does the speed (or frequency?) of the minds > > > rising and falling > > > have to do with the Buddha's teaching? > > kom 23233 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 11:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Kom, Then the goal is to realize liberation, the cessation of dukkha. When you said that understanding that there is nothing (that can be realized now) beyond the 5 kandhas are the first step toward this liberation, do you mean that knowing the four noble truths is the first step toward liberation, the cessation of dukkha? Thank you for your reply. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Victor, > [snip] > > You said that the goal of studying (sikha) is to understand the > > current moment better. Do you mean that the goal is to realize > > liberation, the cessation of dukkha? > > Yes, Victor, but we all have to start somewhere. Some people think that > this realization can be now and immediate, but they don't know that thinking > about it and realizing it are two very different thing. Understanding that > there is nothing (that can be realized now) beyond the 5 kandhas are the > first step toward this liberation. > > > > > You said that we shouldn't be bothered by the teachings that we > > don't yet understand (or appreciate). What teachings are you > > talking about? > > > One follows... > [snip] > > kom 23234 From: dwlemen Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 11:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Kom and Dave, > > The Buddha did not teach right effort with a philosophical view of > determinism or free will. The view of determinism or free will is > irrelevant. > > What is right effort? > > To quote from > > Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8 > Magga-vibhanga Sutta > An Analysis of the Path > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-008.html > > > "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a > monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & > exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, > unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates > desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his > intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities > that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising > of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates > desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his > intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, > development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: > This, monks, is called right effort. > > > Your comment is appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor > My take on the above passage is that it implies free will. "He generates" ... "[he] exerts his intent" and so forth. If he'd have said something along the lines of "What is Right Effort? When conditions arise that bring forth the effect of the non-arising of evil..." then it would have implied determinism. Peace, Dave 23235 From: Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi, Kom - Thank you for your kind reply. As you probably expext, I agree with you some and disagree with you some. I will give just a few brief comments in context below. In a message dated 7/1/03 11:00:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > Dear Howard, > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > >Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:32 AM > >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading &Serialization > > > I still find unanswered by you the > >importance of the so precise > >relative speed of cittas compared to rupas. In > >the Sutta Pitaka, the Buddha, I > >believe just once, in response to a query, > >pointed out that the mind shouldn't be > >taken for a self, a self being generally > >understood as something permanent, > >because mind changes even faster than form. Now > >that was a good, brief teaching > >directed to a specific inquiry, making a true but > >informal point, and leaving > >it at that. Then the Abhidhamma scholastics, it > >seems to me, picked up on this, > >and presented a "fact" that cittas go by 17 times > >as fast as rupas. First of > >all, how they did the clocking is an interesting > >question! But that aside, and > >aside from the fact that 17 is my favorite prime > >number ;-), I still > >question the importance of this numerical > >information. The Buddha had made a good > >point (he was the best of teachers!), and the > >scholastics then took it and ruined > >it, as I see it, by establishing a useless, dry, > >and lifeless "fact" - a > >piece of "scientific" data comparable to the > >medieval Christian determinations of > >how many angels can dance on the head of a pin! > > K. Sujin actually said many time that the teachings, both in > the Abhidhamma and in the Sutta, are beyond the realm of > being verified by us. Even Sariputta, one most excelled in > wisdom, still needs to ask/listen to the Buddha to progress > in wisdom (even after having reached arahatship). > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is certainly true with regard to many matters. But the sense of it troubles me. It makes me think about two things: One is the Christian dictum "God works in mysterious ways. His wonders to behold." The other, going rather in the opposite direction, is the content of the Kalama Sutta. ---------------------------------------------------- > > I did not answer you directly the first time because I hope > that an indirect answer would suffice (which I still think > it is): a teaching may not be useful to you, but may be > useful to somebody else. As you view the abhidhamma as > being something "extra" to the Buddha's teaching, I think > that regardless of how I explain it, as long as it is > grounded from the Abhidhamma, what I say would be a wash > (for you). > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Not so. There is a great deal in the Theravada Abhidhamma that I consider to be of enormous value and which I have internalized as part of my "world view". (But,yes, I do not believe that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was Buddha word. Pretty much all the early schools developed their own Abhidhamma, and well after the death of the Buddha.) ----------------------------------------------------- > > I will give you a couple of reasons, which I am sure you > would disagree, so this is mostly for somebody else. Many > details in the Abhidhamma, including the 17 citta process > and the more subtle details of pacaya (conditionality) give > a person a sense (and understanding) that there are only > causes and effects. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: What I've read in the suttas plus my own experience, both while meditating and during "ordinary times", have persuaded me of this impersonality. But I can see that some folks might find such numerical "facts" helpful. --------------------------------------------------- The dhammas roll on uninterrupted> > regardless of whether "we" want to do anything about it. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. --------------------------------------------------- > The speed of the citta shows you how it is impossible to be > perfectly mindful of what appears (except for the Arahat). > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is the cittas, themselves, that do the perceiving, not some "self" sitting back and looking on (like one of the two birds in the tree of the Hindus)! So the cittas certainly keep pace with the cittas! This business of not seeing what's actually going on requires a much deeper analysis than one of speed! ------------------------------------------------- > When a dhamma appears, there are already attachments and > grieves, even the most subtle kinds, until we accumulate > conditions that this is no longer the case. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: How do these conditions accumulate, Kom? By magic, or randomly, or by volitional action of very specific nature? (Forget about "I" - there's no "I", and I'm not assuming the existence of one.) ------------------------------------------------------ > > It also teaches one to be careful. When we may think that > right now, we are at peace and mindful, that because the > citta proceeds at its own speed, there are bound to be > attachments to the dhammas. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: For sure there are attachments! I'm well aware of that. -------------------------------------------------- For example, some people> > believe that the volitional factor is important in the > development of the path, but we can see it for ourselves > that when "we" intend to have mindfulness, is that > attachment or is that wisdom? Knowing (in general) the > speed and the subtleties of the mind helps one to be careful > and to investigate thoroughly --- there is already > attachment, the samudhaya of all becomings, to results, and > one doesn't even know it. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is no need to say "volition" and "we" in the same sentence. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Another reason why this might be useful to others is because > some people like things to be more concrete rather than more > general. Hearing a general teaching (that the mind is fast) > may be insufficient for the person to hold the person > attention, but giving them the specifics grounds them to the > fact that the mind is fast. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: A valid point. ---------------------------------------------------- I am sure that being a teacher,> > you must have found that people are different. For some, > being general is sufficient for them, for others, unless the > specifics are given, they are not quite satisfied. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: To see that the mind changes at all is enough to see that it is not a "self". Exactly how fast it allegedly changes, or how fast compared to forms, is not of any particular importance. (At least, I don't see the importance.) ---------------------------------------------------- > > kom > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23236 From: Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization [Howard] Hi, Dan - In a message dated 7/1/03 12:41:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhd5@c... writes: > Dan replies: I can think of a lot of better things to do than to > question the importance of this numerical information! "Just > note 'papañca, papañca' and direct the mind back to the primary > object of meditation." [BTW: Did you ever do a Mahasi-style > meditation retreat?] > > ========================= Brief retreats with Joseph Goldstein, Sharon Salzberg, and Larry Rosenberg - Mahasi style, plus a 10-day Goenka retreat (not Mahasi style). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23237 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Howard, op 01-07-2003 12:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Then the Abhidhamma scholastics, it seems to me, picked up on this, > and presented a "fact" that cittas go by 17 times as fast as rupas. N: When a process of cittas experiencing a sense object, a rupa (such as visible object or sound), runs its full course, 17 moments of citta have elapsed when the rupa falls away. More info: Abh Studies, Nyanaponika. He explains that in comparison to rupa citta is seventeen times faster. See Yasa's posts where he enumerated all cittas of the Process, bhavangacittas included. Nina. 23238 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, Pali subco Dear Jim and Larry, op 01-07-2003 02:25 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > Thanks for your translation and general remarks. I'm still not clear > on the Pali, so what follows is my attempt at an alternative > translation with some notes. N: Thank you very much Jim for your remarks and corrections. I have to absorb it now. I stared a long time on vara. Larry, you had several questions, but it is good if we first absorb what Jim wrote. Even when we have the translation right we have to interprete it. We need the whole context of the Tipitaka for this, such as satipatthana sutta and commentary, abhidhamma, etc. Nina. 23239 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 0:38am Subject: Azita - Cones was (Re: Inquiry to Nina...) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Azita, > > Cones come in little boxes of six or eight - I think you said Darshan > from India were the best, > > dear Chris, Ahhh, yes, I do remember. Please let me know when you want your 'Conditions' returned, I am only on Ch.3, it's not such light reading is it? No wonder the Buddha said it was deep and difficult to understand.!! Hope work goes well, and maybe see you again at end of August. Azita. 23240 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 1:05am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 2:33 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > > K. Sujin actually said many time that the > teachings, both in > > the Abhidhamma and in the Sutta, are beyond the realm of > > being verified by us. Even Sariputta, one most > excelled in > > wisdom, still needs to ask/listen to the Buddha > to progress > > in wisdom (even after having reached arahatship). > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This is certainly true with regard to many > matters. But the sense of > it troubles me. It makes me think about two > things: One is the Christian dictum > "God works in mysterious ways. His wonders to > behold." The other, going > rather in the opposite direction, is the content > of the Kalama Sutta. > ---------------------------------------------------- I can understand why it troubles you. We shouldn't believe in something that is proven otherwise. I am one who appreciates the Kalama Sutta and don't see what is taught there as being extreme at all. At the end, you need to prove your theory; otherwise, the theory remains unprovable, even if it is useful from the general sense. That's why the teachings of the kandhas, ayatanas, and dhatus are pretty magical to me: truth beyond reproach, and provable from the coarsest degree, to the finest one. Do I know there are 17 citta moments per rupa? I don't, but I am willing to hold it as a better model than the other ones that I have come to know, until proven (and not just logically!) otherwise. > > > > I did not answer you directly the first time > because I hope > > that an indirect answer would suffice (which I > still think > > it is): a teaching may not be useful to you, but may be > > useful to somebody else. As you view the abhidhamma as > > being something "extra" to the Buddha's > teaching, I think > > that regardless of how I explain it, as long as it is > > grounded from the Abhidhamma, what I say would be a wash > > (for you). > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Not so. There is a great deal in the > Theravada Abhidhamma that I > consider to be of enormous value and which I have > internalized as part of my "world > view". (But,yes, I do not believe that the > Abhidhamma Pitaka was Buddha word. > Pretty much all the early schools developed their > own Abhidhamma, and well > after the death of the Buddha.) > ----------------------------------------------------- OK. You did show the appreciation many times. I am over-generalizing. I apologize for this carelessness. > --------------------------------------------------- > > > The speed of the citta shows you how it is > impossible to be > > perfectly mindful of what appears (except for > the Arahat). > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is the cittas, themselves, that do the > perceiving, not some "self" > sitting back and looking on (like one of the two > birds in the tree of the > Hindus)! So the cittas certainly keep pace with > the cittas! This business of not > seeing what's actually going on requires a much > deeper analysis than one of > speed! > ------------------------------------------------- If you are implying perfect mindfulness (I don't think you are), are you sure? The truth of origination can be relinquished only when it (the attachment) has been known (completely and thoroughly). The problem is that the attachments that are not yet known are more subtle that the one already "known". How about attachment to sati (and the rites and rituals that we follow to have more of these "sati")? I think knowing about how fast the mind goes about urges one to investigate more thoroughly about our intentions and mental states, especially those accompanied with the pleasant/neutral feelings. > > > When a dhamma appears, there are already attachments and > > grieves, even the most subtle kinds, until we accumulate > > conditions that this is no longer the case. > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > How do these conditions accumulate, Kom? > By magic, or randomly, or by > volitional action of very specific nature? > (Forget about "I" - there's no "I", > and I'm not assuming the existence of one.) > ------------------------------------------------------ I think you, Sarah, and Jon have gone over this many times. I believe in causes and effects. The causes for wisdom at the pati-pati level (practice, as normally translated) are wisdom at listening and consideration level. The pre-requisite for reaching sotapanna is association with the wise, listening to the true dhamma, wise consideration, and practice accordingly (to the truth, as verified by one own's wisdom). Nothing rises randomly as this would imply sankhata dhamma beyond conditionalities. The 8-fold path comprises of all the mental factors arising at the moment of mindfulness, which volition is not included (although co-arising), and one which is pre-eminently brought about by wisdom (at the different levels). I think you interpret the 8-fold path differently, so I think we will disagree here. When the volitional factor is so strong that it appears to us, I think we should investigate the co-arising states of the volitional factor. Is it wisdom, or is it subtle (or not so subtle) attachment hoping for existence (of sati), hoping for an existence of a self who has sati, who is progressing, who is doing the right thing, who is following the path, etc. Subtle is attachment, even ones who are so wise (but not a Buddha), such as the Buddha's tranquil meditation teachers, cannot escape it. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > To see that the mind changes at all is > enough to see that it is not a > "self". Exactly how fast it allegedly changes, or > how fast compared to forms, > is not of any particular importance. (At least, I > don't see the importance.) > ---------------------------------------------------- Before I learned about the complexities of conditions, I always had at the back of my mind (and I still do, it is just more subtle) that one thing I do will dictate the outcome of states. After a bit of understanding about the complexities of the conditions, I now understand how foolish of me to think so. Seeing occurs because there are the eye sense, the visible object, and the seeing consciousness. I control not the eye sense, and not the visible object, so how is it possible that I would control seeing consciousness? Sati and kusala states come about based on much more complexed conditions than seeing, and definitely than just the volitional factor alone. I think learning about the citta process (which has association with the magical number 17) can give one the same sense. What can one do? If one understands that only understanding sheds more light into the true natures of all realities (such as the ti-lakkhana), progressively, then one strives to understand the right thing, being confident that because of this little understanding that arises now, eventually one will fulfill the conditions to become enlightened in the future. There is no need for us to exert extra efforts. When wisdom understands the urgency of knowing the states, then the right efforts increase based on the understanding. Causes and effects. kom 23241 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inquiry to Nina... for Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Azita, > -snip- > > Calm and peacefulness are wholesome, skillful qualities that one can > see for oneself. Dear Victor, I'm not as certain as you that calm and peacefulness are necessarily wholesome, they can be but unless there is the wisdom to really know at the time, they can also be unwholesome, just subtle pleasant feeling, lobha. > Regarding 'wrong practice', what 'wrong practice' are you refering > to? > In relation to what I've just previously stated, I believe that unless Panna is developed to the stage of knowing what is right and wrong practice, then there always is the danger of taking akusala for kusala. For example, if during meditation, I feel really calm and peaceful, I don't know for sure if that's the calm of samatha or just good ole' Lobha. Now, if Panna arose then Panna would know. I'll bet its good ole Lobha. > And regarding the question: why can't Nibbana be object of clinging? > > I would reply with a rhetorical question: > > How can an object of clinging, fabricated, impermanent, dukkha, be > the cessation of dukkha, unborn, unmade, unfabricated, unbecome? > > Your comment is appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor > I had to think hard about this one, Victor. You are saying that an object that is clung to cannot be the cessation of clinging, right? I agree bec. Nibbana can only be experienced by wholesome cetasikas, but afterwards when there is thinking about Nibbana, can it not then be 'desired'? Can it not then be an object of clinging? Looking forward to your, or anyone's, comment on this. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 23242 From: Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi, Nina (and Kom) - In a message dated 7/2/03 12:18:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard, > op 01-07-2003 12:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Then the Abhidhamma scholastics, it seems to me, picked up on this, > >and presented a "fact" that cittas go by 17 times as fast as rupas. > N: When a process of cittas experiencing a sense object, a rupa (such as > visible object or sound), runs its full course, 17 moments of citta have > elapsed when the rupa falls away. > More info: Abh Studies, Nyanaponika. He explains that in comparison to rupa > citta is seventeen times faster. > See Yasa's posts where he enumerated all cittas of the Process, > bhavangacittas included. > Nina. > ============================== Yes, thank you Nina. I do understand what has been said (though, I must admit, I give somewhat short shrift to all the details). Questions that come to mind are the matter of measuring this flow of namas and rupas (there is no one or thing standing back from the cittas, looking on - it *is* the cittas that are the experiencing), but moreso I question the usefulness of the matter. To me, assuming that this is, indeed, fact, it strikes me that this fact is one of those leaves in the forest that the Buddha did not hold in his hand. One more thing I'd like to add: I believe that I was a bit rude to Kom (perhaps more than a bit) in my posts on this topic - getting cranky as I age I guess! ;-), and I do sincerely apologize for this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23243 From: Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi, Kom - Thank you forthe very kind and friendly post. I will insert just a few comments in context below. In a message dated 7/2/03 4:06:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > Dear Howard, > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > >Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 2:33 PM > >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading &Serialization > > > >>K. Sujin actually said many time that the > >teachings, both in > >>the Abhidhamma and in the Sutta, are beyond the realm of > >>being verified by us. Even Sariputta, one most > >excelled in > >>wisdom, still needs to ask/listen to the Buddha > >to progress > >>in wisdom (even after having reached arahatship). > >> > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > This is certainly true with regard to many > >matters. But the sense of > >it troubles me. It makes me think about two > >things: One is the Christian dictum > >"God works in mysterious ways. His wonders to > >behold." The other, going > >rather in the opposite direction, is the content > >of the Kalama Sutta. > >---------------------------------------------------- > > I can understand why it troubles you. We shouldn't believe > in something that is proven otherwise. I am one who > appreciates the Kalama Sutta and don't see what is taught > there as being extreme at all. At the end, you need to > prove your theory; otherwise, the theory remains unprovable, > even if it is useful from the general sense. That's why the > teachings of the kandhas, ayatanas, and dhatus are pretty > magical to me: truth beyond reproach, and provable from the > coarsest degree, to the finest one. Do I know there are 17 > citta moments per rupa? I don't, but I am willing to hold > it as a better model than the other ones that I have come to > know, until proven (and not just logically!) otherwise. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Honestly, while I have some doubts with regard to some of this, especially as regards utility, Icertainly do not dismiss it. I also,in fact, tentatively accept it - but perhaps with a bit more scepticism than you. --------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > >>I did not answer you directly the first time > >because I hope > >>that an indirect answer would suffice (which I > >still think > >>it is): a teaching may not be useful to you, but may be > >>useful to somebody else. As you view the abhidhamma as > >>being something "extra" to the Buddha's > >teaching, I think > >>that regardless of how I explain it, as long as it is > >>grounded from the Abhidhamma, what I say would be a wash > >>(for you). > >> > >------------------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Not so. There is a great deal in the > >Theravada Abhidhamma that I > >consider to be of enormous value and which I have > >internalized as part of my "world > >view". (But,yes, I do not believe that the > >Abhidhamma Pitaka was Buddha word. > >Pretty much all the early schools developed their > >own Abhidhamma, and well > >after the death of the Buddha.) > >----------------------------------------------------- > > OK. You did show the appreciation many times. I am > over-generalizing. I apologize for this carelessness. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You have nothing to apologize for. Thank you for thinking that you do. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > >--------------------------------------------------- > > > >>The speed of the citta shows you how it is > >impossible to be > >>perfectly mindful of what appears (except for > >the Arahat). > >> > >-------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > It is the cittas, themselves, that do the > >perceiving, not some "self" > >sitting back and looking on (like one of the two > >birds in the tree of the > >Hindus)! So the cittas certainly keep pace with > >the cittas! This business of not > >seeing what's actually going on requires a much > >deeper analysis than one of > >speed! > >------------------------------------------------- > > If you are implying perfect mindfulness (I don't think you > are), are you sure? The truth of origination can be > relinquished only when it (the attachment) has been known > (completely and thoroughly). The problem is that the > attachments that are not yet known are more subtle that the > one already "known". How about attachment to sati (and the > rites and rituals that we follow to have more of these > "sati")? I think knowing about how fast the mind goes about > urges one to investigate more thoroughly about our > intentions and mental states, especially those accompanied > with the pleasant/neutral feelings. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think we may be in some agreement here. I see the problem as one of insufficient mindfulness and other kusala qualities, and not a matter of speed. ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > >>When a dhamma appears, there are already attachments and > >>grieves, even the most subtle kinds, until we accumulate > >>conditions that this is no longer the case. > >> > >------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > How do these conditions accumulate, Kom? > >By magic, or randomly, or by > >volitional action of very specific nature? > >(Forget about "I" - there's no "I", > >and I'm not assuming the existence of one.) > >------------------------------------------------------ > > I think you, Sarah, and Jon have gone over this many times. > I believe in causes and effects. The causes for wisdom at > the pati-pati level (practice, as normally translated) are > wisdom at listening and consideration level. The > pre-requisite for reaching sotapanna is association with the > wise, listening to the true dhamma, wise consideration, and > practice accordingly (to the truth, as verified by one own's > wisdom). Nothing rises randomly as this would imply > sankhata dhamma beyond conditionalities. The 8-fold path > comprises of all the mental factors arising at the moment of > mindfulness, which volition is not included (although > co-arising), and one which is pre-eminently brought about by > wisdom (at the different levels). I think you interpret the > 8-fold path differently, so I think we will disagree here. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: This is surely an area of disagreement. You do, however, mention " practice accordingly (to the truth, as verified by one own's wisdom)". Such practice requires exercise of volition, determination, guarding the senses, right effort. ------------------------------------------------ > > When the volitional factor is so strong that it appears to > us, I think we should investigate the co-arising states of > the volitional factor. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Note, however, that "should" implies choice and volition. --------------------------------------------------- Is it wisdom, or is it subtle (or> > not so subtle) attachment hoping for existence (of sati), > hoping for an existence of a self who has sati, who is > progressing, who is doing the right thing, who is following > the path, etc. Subtle is attachment, even ones who are so > wise (but not a Buddha), such as the Buddha's tranquil > meditation teachers, cannot escape it. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree completely. It is essential to know what is actually going on. Attachment is dogged! ------------------------------------------------- > > > > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > To see that the mind changes at all is > >enough to see that it is not a > >"self". Exactly how fast it allegedly changes, or > >how fast compared to forms, > >is not of any particular importance. (At least, I > >don't see the importance.) > >---------------------------------------------------- > > Before I learned about the complexities of conditions, I > always had at the back of my mind (and I still do, it is > just more subtle) that one thing I do will dictate the > outcome of states. After a bit of understanding about the > complexities of the conditions, I now understand how foolish > of me to think so. Seeing occurs because there are the eye > sense, the visible object, and the seeing consciousness. I > control not the eye sense, and not the visible object, so > how is it possible that I would control seeing > consciousness? Sati and kusala states come about based on > much more complexed conditions than seeing, and definitely > than just the volitional factor alone. I think learning > about the citta process (which has association with the > magical number 17) can give one the same sense. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: All that you "see" here, I "see" also. If, somehow, 17 has helped you with this, then I salute it! ------------------------------------------------ > > What can one do? If one understands that only understanding > sheds more light into the true natures of all realities > (such as the ti-lakkhana), progressively, then one strives > to understand the right thing, being confident that because > of this little understanding that arises now, eventually one > will fulfill the conditions to become enlightened in the > future. There is no need for us to exert extra efforts. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The "striving" you write of above, which involves, as I see it, closely attending to what arises, with energy aroused, with concentration and a non-reactive calm in place, and with an eye to seeing what really is going on is, indeed, right practice. Certainly "extra" effort is unnecessary, possibly even counterproductive. -------------------------------------------------------------- > When wisdom understands the urgency of knowing the states, > then the right efforts increase based on the understanding. > Causes and effects. > > kom > > ============================ With metta, and with appreciation for the kindness of your posts, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23244 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Victor, ----- Original Message ----- From: yu_zhonghao To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:54 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > Hi Mike, Kom, and Howard, and all, > > Regardless the different mode of expression, the question is: > > Is the conceptual construct of the Abhidhamma Pitaka the Buddha's > teaching? > > Is an elaborate cognitive model of mental process the Dhamma? As Kom's reply indicated, these questions have been addressed many times here. I take your questions (as usual) to be rhetorical. For my part, I see no virtue in taking part in this kind of debate. mike 23245 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 7:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Howard (Victor & Dave), Just one more comment to your post, Howard. > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 5:19 AM > > > > I think you, Sarah, and Jon have gone over this > many times. > > I believe in causes and effects. The causes > for wisdom at > > the pati-pati level (practice, as normally > translated) are > > wisdom at listening and consideration level. The > > pre-requisite for reaching sotapanna is > association with the > > wise, listening to the true dhamma, wise > consideration, and > > practice accordingly (to the truth, as verified > by one own's > > wisdom). Nothing rises randomly as this would imply > > sankhata dhamma beyond conditionalities. The > 8-fold path > > comprises of all the mental factors arising at > the moment of > > mindfulness, which volition is not included (although > > co-arising), and one which is pre-eminently > brought about by > > wisdom (at the different levels). I think you > interpret the > > 8-fold path differently, so I think we will > disagree here. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This is surely an area of disagreement. > You do, however, mention " > practice accordingly (to the truth, as verified > by one own's wisdom)". Such > practice requires exercise of volition, > determination, guarding the senses, right > effort. I think this is the point that we keep converging to. I don't think we need to get into what right effort is as Victor has posted the definition on this same thread. I think the disagreement is how right efforts come about. I think for you (please let me know if I am say this wrong), right efforts can be an exercise of volition and choice (as Dave has called it free will). For me, right efforts come about because of the right understandings. For example, when one understands (or gets reminded) that life is short, one is urged on to understand the current moment better, because otherwise, such rare opportunities are wasted. When one understands that nama and rupa roll on interrupted, at every moment, then one doesn't need to find a special time of the day to be mindful. When one understands that kusala states are light and malleable, when we are burdened by thoughts that we are not doing something enough (to have sati), to know the characteristic of that thinking (probably aversion), and the characteristic of the desire for results that bring about that aversion. When I think back of how I come to learn about (and have confidence in) the Buddha dhamma, I can see that I become more involved more progressively because of better understandings of the teachings (often prompted by very good friends). The more I learn, the more I strive to develop kusala states. Right efforts brought about by right understandings. If we just strive, without the right understandings, it is the wrong effort. This is the cause and effect that I am convinced of. kom 23246 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 7:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Victor, > -----Original Message----- > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 11:33 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > > Hi Kom, > > Then the goal is to realize liberation, the > cessation of dukkha. That is the ultimate goal, but is it possible to realize liberation and the cessation of dukkha without development? Development implies gradual progress, not sudden insight. It also implies intermediate levels of realization of the truths. We may rightly think about liberation and the cessation of dukkha in general sense now, but that is no realization. The buddha's teachings lead to knowledge, comprehension, detachment, liberation, and nibbana. Liberation is not yet possible as long as there is not enough accumulation, but knowledge, comprehension, and detachment are possible, albeit gradually. > > When you said that understanding that there is > nothing (that can be > realized now) beyond the 5 kandhas are the first > step toward this > liberation, do you mean that knowing the four > noble truths is the > first step toward liberation, the cessation of dukkha? Does the first truth include the 5 kandhas? Is the second truth part of the 5 kandhas? You tell me... kom 23247 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 7:55am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 4:54 AM > One more thing I'd like to add: I believe > that I was a bit rude to Kom > (perhaps more than a bit) in my posts on this > topic - getting cranky as I age > I guess! ;-), and I do sincerely apologize for this. > But you are such a mild crank! ;-). It is always amazing how many little things irritate me. kom 23248 From: caliman9_99@y... Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 8:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 1507 hello all the mind is a monkey that jumps fro tree to tree if left unattneded, so the lesson here is to be vigilant and guard the gates of our senses. do not let mara tempt you as he did Our Loord Buddha while sitting under the bodhi tree. peace to you all tom 23249 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My time with A. Sujin, 1. Dear Kio, op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > What I am curious first is to know your vivid, or perhaps inspiring > moment you had at the earlier/beginning years with A. Sujin. I read > some comment from the book on `daily life.' But more specifically, > how was your impression/learning from the first meeting? How > skillfully did she bring the technical matter/Abidhamma–if I may say > so- into the living/daily practice? Any specific event the you can > highlight? Even a tiny incident that brought the message to you – > verbally or behaviorally -may be very helpful. Nina:I met A. Sujin for the first time in the Wat Mahathaat temple where a foreign monk was teaching about the jhanafactors, and also helped us to read suttas. We read the Parinibbana sutta and the Kesaputta sutta (mostly called Kalama sutta). I was impressed that you do not have to accept anything from others, but have to find out the truth for yourself. A. Sujin kept rather to the background in this temple. I approached her and said that I wanted to learn about meditation that you can apply in daily life. My life was very busy, being in the diplomatic service. (In Japan the teachers at the language school (nihongo no gakko de) called me "Mrs Party". I felt there must something else in life, not just being engaged with parties. A. Sujin said, yes, vipassana can be developed in daily life, and she invited me to her house. From then on I came several times a week with many questions. I asked her about belief in God and how to find out the truth. She answered: what is truth will appear. She also helped me to see what is clinging, clinging to a belief. I had never considered this before. She said from the beginning that in the teaching of Dhamma, the person who teaches is not important, it is not the person but it is the Dhamma that matters. This was new also for Thais; in Asean countries there is a great respect for teachers (sensei!) and people tend to follow what teachers say, especially when they are bhikkhus. When teachers wrote about Dhamma in olden times they would not mention the source of their quotes. A. Sujin greatly contributed to a change in this mentality, always encouraging to looking up the texts oneself, verifying the truth for oneself. She started interest in the translations of Commentaries and promoted this. I remember our visits to the library of Wat Bovornives and our conversations with monks. A friend made notes and gradually Commentaries in Thai were printed. A. Sujin gave lectures in a temple every Sunday and quoted suttas. She asked a monk ahead of time about the Commentary to the relevant text. I tried to look up the suttas in my English editions. (This is all for now, it will be continued.) Nina. 23250 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 10:06am Subject: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 2. Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 2. We need sati-sampajañña and we have to develop each kind of kusala with patience and endurance in order to realize the four noble Truths. We should not have expectations as to the moment when we shall realize the four noble Truths. So long as we have many defilements which arise time and again and we have desire for the realization of the four noble Truths, we are very far away from the goal. Therefore, we should begin to develop all kind of kusala so that they become supporting conditions leading to the goal. We read in the Commentary to the ³Theragåthå², the ³Paramatthadípaní², in the ³Nidånakåthå², that all perfections support and enhance each other: The utmost patience in the accumulation of good qualities such as dåna in order to attain the awakening wisdom of the ³Solitary Buddha² or the awakening wisdom of a disciple, is called energy, viriya. Endurance with regard to anger is called patience, khanti. Generous deeds, the undertaking of moral conduct, síla, and so on, and the abstention from speech that deviates from the truth is called truthfulness, sacca. Determination which is unshakable and firm so that one can accomplish what is beneficial in all circumstances, is called determination, aditthåna. Aiming for the benefit of all beings which is the foundation of the practice of dåna, síla and so on, is called loving-kindness, mettå. Evenmindedness with regard to trying circumstances and behaviour of other beings is called equanimity, upekkhå. Therefore, when there are dåna, síla and bhåvana, mental development, or there are síla, samådhi and paññå, it can be said that the perfections of energy and so on have reached accomplishment in those ways. We need the greatest patience for the accumulation of generosity. We need energy, we need to be unshakable and firm in order to accomplish what is beneficial in all circumstances. It is useful that the perfections are referred to in different ways, in slightly different wordings, although the meaning is the same. For example, as we read in the Commentary to the ³Theragåthå²: ³Aiming for the benefit of all beings which is the foundation of the practice of dåna, síla and so on, is called loving-kindness, mettå.² Thus, this is another aspect of mettå. People who perform generous deeds may not consider their cittas at such moments, they may not realize that they give because of mettå. It is their nature to give and therefore, they perform generous deeds, they give things away for the benefit and happiness of others. If they consider their kusala citta they will know that mettå is the foundation of their generosity. When they abstain from ill deeds through body and speech the foundation of their kusala is also mettå. They do not want to cause suffering and distress to others by their actions or speech. 23251 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 10:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Kom, Thank you for the reply. Regarding the question "is it possible to realize liberation and the cessation of dukkha without development", I would rephrase it as: Is it possible to realize the cessation of dukkha without practicing/living/developing in the way leading to the cessation of dukkha? To that question, I would say: No, it is not possible. I believe we are in agreement that the goal is liberation, the cessation of dukkha. Thank you again for the reply. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Victor, > [snip] > > Hi Kom, > > > > Then the goal is to realize liberation, the > > cessation of dukkha. > > That is the ultimate goal, but is it possible to realize > liberation and the cessation of dukkha without development? > Development implies gradual progress, not sudden insight. > It also implies intermediate levels of realization of the > truths. We may rightly think about liberation and the > cessation of dukkha in general sense now, but that is no > realization. The buddha's teachings lead to knowledge, > comprehension, detachment, liberation, and nibbana. > Liberation is not yet possible as long as there is not > enough accumulation, but knowledge, comprehension, and > detachment are possible, albeit gradually. > > > > > When you said that understanding that there is > > nothing (that can be > > realized now) beyond the 5 kandhas are the first > > step toward this > > liberation, do you mean that knowing the four > > noble truths is the > > first step toward liberation, the cessation of dukkha? > > Does the first truth include the 5 kandhas? Is the second > truth part of the 5 kandhas? You tell me... > > kom 23252 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 0:11pm Subject: Re: Inquiry to Nina... for Victor Hi Azita, Thank you for your reply. Some more rhetorical questions: Can one experience calm and peacefulness while being greedy? When one is greedy, how can he or she experience calm and peacefulness? Being calm is not the same as being greedy. Calm is different from greed. Likewise, experiencing subtle pleasant feeling is not the same as being greedy. Subtle pleasant feeling is different from greed. Your question "Nibbana can only be experienced by wholesome cetasikas, but afterwards when there is thinking about Nibbana, can it not then be 'desired'?" reminds me of this discourse: Samyutta Nikaya LI.15 Brahmana Sutta To Unnabha the Brahman http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn51-015.html Thank you again for your reply. Your comment is appreciated. If you like, let me know how you understand the discourse. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: [snip] > > Dear Victor, > I'm not as certain as you that calm and peacefulness are > necessarily wholesome, they can be but unless there is the wisdom to > really know at the time, they can also be unwholesome, just subtle > pleasant feeling, lobha. > > > Regarding 'wrong practice', what 'wrong practice' are you refering > > to? > > > In relation to what I've just previously stated, I believe that > unless Panna is developed to the stage of knowing what is right and > wrong practice, then there always is the danger of taking akusala for > kusala. For example, if during meditation, I feel really calm and > peaceful, I don't know for sure if that's the calm of samatha or just > good ole' Lobha. Now, if Panna arose then Panna would know. I'll > bet its good ole Lobha. > [snip] > I had to think hard about this one, Victor. You are saying that > an object that is clung to cannot be the cessation of clinging, right? > I agree bec. Nibbana can only be experienced by wholesome cetasikas, > but afterwards when there is thinking about Nibbana, can it not then > be 'desired'? Can it not then be an object of clinging? > Looking forward to your, or anyone's, comment on this. > patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita 23253 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 4:46pm Subject: Re: Inquiry to Nina... for Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Azita, > > Thank you for your reply. > > Some more rhetorical questions: > Can one experience calm and peacefulness while being greedy? When > one is greedy, how can he or she experience calm and peacefulness? > dear Victor, perhaps not while being greedy, but I believe with very subtle lobha, one can feel very peaceful e.g. imagine being on holidays, lying back on the beach, beautiful weather, without a care in the world at the moment, for me, that's very peaceful but I wouldn't say it was kusala. -snip- , let me know how you understand the discourse. > > Peace, > Victor > Regarding the discourse, I'm wondering if the desire that's spoken about is Chanda, which is desire-to-do, rather than Lobha. The discourse is very uplifting, but if I didn't have some knowledge of Abhidhamma, I would think that 'I' could do something to attain Enlightenment. I want to quote something that I just read from Nina: 'so long as we have many defilements which arise time and again and we have desire for the realization of the 4 Noble Truths, we are very far from the goal'. I know that I don't know just h0w deep 'my' defilements are, but I'm fairly certain that there is a lot more akusala in a day than kusala. Cessation is not attained by wishing, it is attained by Knowledge, and I quote here from Kom: 'the 1st stage of insight is the distinction bet. nama and rupa. Without this stage of insight, the person still holds dear all the Khandhas as being truly theirs.' I present my question about Nibbana a little differently. In Nina's book 'Conditions' p36, it says 'anything can be object of clinging, except Nibbana'. Why is this? Thanks for dragging me out of the lurkers' corner, Victor. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 23254 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization, accumulations. Dear Howard, op 02-07-2003 13:53 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:> > In a message dated 7/2/03 12:18:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... > writes: Questions that > come > to mind are the matter of measuring this flow of namas and rupas (there is no > one or thing standing back from the cittas, looking on - it *is* the cittas > that are the experiencing), but moreso I question the usefulness of the > matter. N: We do not have to count, but it helps us to see how processes run on, run on, nobody can hold them or slow them down. It helps us to understand more about the different doorways, sense-door and mind-door, and what is known by insight. At first one may not see the usefulness, but later on one sees it. By going into the matter more carefully, considering what one learns. It is useful to know that there is not one moment of javanacitta (kusala or akusala), but more, seven. We do not count, but it is significant that there are more. One moment of seeing and shortly after that more moments of attachment, and the same goes on in the succeeding mind-door process. When lobha arises in the sense-door process, it also follows in the mind-door process that succeeds the sense-door process. It shows us that kusala and akusala are accumulated on and on. Mostly akusala. We come to understand accumulations. H: One more thing I'd like to add: I believe that I was a bit rude to Kom > (perhaps more than a bit) in my posts on this topic - getting cranky as I age > I guess! ;-), and I do sincerely apologize for this. N: You are a very kind person, Howard, and I am sure Kom feels the same about you. Moreover, I know that you carefully consider the dhamma and write yourself well thought-out posts. Nina. 23255 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 1:05am Subject: What do you do with gratitude? Dear group, When I came out of work tonight, the air was quite fresh and chilly, still a novelty at the beginning of winter in the sub-tropics. The trees were full of rainbow lorikeets that had flown down from the rainforest to roost in the safety of the carpark lights, for once displacing the noisy miners on the branches. The sky had lots of clouds in bumps and rows like the patterns made by the outgoing tide on the sand - all the different patterns were bright orangey-pink on the blue background of the sky. I just felt an overwheming gratitude and thankfulness - but then felt bereft when I considered to whom/what could I offer thanks ... gratitude has to go somewhere. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23256 From: Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization, accumulations. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/3/03 12:34:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Howard, > op 02-07-2003 13:53 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:> > >In a message dated 7/2/03 12:18:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > nilo@e... > >writes: > Questions that > >come > >to mind are the matter of measuring this flow of namas and rupas (there is > no > >one or thing standing back from the cittas, looking on - it *is* the cittas > >that are the experiencing), but moreso I question the usefulness of the > >matter. > N: We do not have to count, but it helps us to see how processes run on, run > on, nobody can hold them or slow them down. It helps us to understand more > about the different doorways, sense-door and mind-door, and what is known by > insight. At first one may not see the usefulness, but later on one sees it. > By going into the matter more carefully, considering what one learns. > It is useful to know that there is not one moment of javanacitta (kusala or > akusala), but more, seven. We do not count, but it is significant that there > are more. One moment of seeing and shortly after that more moments of > attachment, and the same goes on in the succeeding mind-door process. When > lobha arises in the sense-door process, it also follows in the mind-door > process that succeeds the sense-door process. It shows us that kusala and > akusala are accumulated on and on. Mostly akusala. We come to understand > accumulations. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Without touching on each detail of what you said here, I certainly agree with the thrust of it. Realizing that what is usually taken for some "me" going through a process of observing an apparently short and simple sequence of "things in here" or "things out there" actually amounts to a complex flow of flickerings from one sense door to another, involving a dazzling stream of arisings and ceasings of observed conditions, all quite impersonal and uncontrollable (by any "me"), is wonderfully illuminating and freeing. What we usually "see" consists of only what occurs at the surface level of awareness, all the rest slipping by, subliminal, unnoticed. And the material we usually *do* get to see largely consists of a conceptual summing up infected by defilements, so that "our world" seems to consist of "us" looking at "things", all relatively stable (some even permanent) and controllable (by "us") - so, we are seeing only the tip of the iceberg, and that through a fog, and using binoculars with clouded lenses! ---------------------------------------------------------- > H: One more thing I'd like to add: I believe that I was a bit rude to Kom > >(perhaps more than a bit) in my posts on this topic - getting cranky as I > age > >I guess! ;-), and I do sincerely apologize for this. > N: You are a very kind person, Howard, and I am sure Kom feels the same > about you. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Nina. Kom's reply to me about this was most kind as well. ------------------------------------------------------- Moreover, I know that you carefully consider the dhamma and write> > yourself well thought-out posts. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, thank you. Yes, the Dhamma is very important to me. -------------------------------------------------------- > Nina. > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23257 From: Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] What do you do with gratitude? Hi, Christine - In a message dated 7/3/03 4:06:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear group, > > When I came out of work tonight, the air was quite fresh and chilly, > still a novelty at the beginning of winter in the sub-tropics. The > trees were full of rainbow lorikeets that had flown down from the > rainforest to roost in the safety of the carpark lights, for once > displacing the noisy miners on the branches. The sky had lots of > clouds in bumps and rows like the patterns made by the outgoing tide > on the sand - all the different patterns were bright orangey-pink on > the blue background of the sky. I just felt an overwheming gratitude > and thankfulness - but then felt bereft when I considered to > whom/what could I offer thanks ... gratitude has to go somewhere. > > metta and peace, > Christine > =============================== I know the feeling. Perhaps the gratitude should go to the past actions of yourself and others that led to these circumstances (or, as Judaism says, that "brought you to this day"), and to the Buddha and other great (but lesser) teachers whose teachings you have come across in this and previous lifetimes and which helped in making you open to such appreciation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23258 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 7:56am Subject: Re: What do you do with gratitude? Thanks be to God, Christine -- an effective means to dissipate the feeling and opinion of Self-importance and to take the sting out of the nagging doubts about where to put gratitude and feelings of bereftness. Is this kusala or akusala? Some who read this post will react with strong dosa: "The mention of something so wrong-headed and, frankly, stupid and obviously wrong as 'God' can only reveal a deep, pitiful ignorance about the world and will be condemned to painful rebirths on account of a sick wrong view." However, "God" exists just as surely as do you or I (perhaps more so, depending on how you define "God") ... or any of the other conceived, compounded nouns we habitually use in conventional speech to communicate cleanly. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear group, > > When I came out of work tonight, the air was quite fresh and chilly, > still a novelty at the beginning of winter in the sub-tropics. The > trees were full of rainbow lorikeets that had flown down from the > rainforest to roost in the safety of the carpark lights, for once > displacing the noisy miners on the branches. The sky had lots of > clouds in bumps and rows like the patterns made by the outgoing tide > on the sand - all the different patterns were bright orangey-pink on > the blue background of the sky. I just felt an overwheming gratitude > and thankfulness - but then felt bereft when I considered to > whom/what could I offer thanks ... gratitude has to go somewhere. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23259 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 8:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? Ha! Well-spoken, Dan. As 'an atheist' with an habitual aversion to religion, this is a timely reminder for me. The Buddha certainly had no problem with the idea of gods, why should I? That said, though, I think it's far better to see the danger in pleasant feelings arising with sense- and mind-contacts than to feel grateful for them, no matter how pleasant--unless they are directly related to: "dåna or generosity, kusala accomplished by dåna, the giving away of useful things to someone else, síla or morality, kusala accomplished by síla, abstention from akusala kamma, bhåvanå or mental development, kusala accomplished through the development of samatha and of vipassanå, apacåyana or paying repect, kusala accomplished by paying respect to those who deserve it, veyyåvaca or rendering service, kusala accomplished by applying energy in helping someone else with the tasks that are to be done, pattidåna or sharing of merit, kusala accomplished by letting someone else know of one's kusala so that he can appreciate it, pattanumodana or appreciation, kusala accomplished by the appreciation of someone else's kusala, desanå or teaching, kusala accomplished by the teaching of the Dhamma, savana or listening, kusala accomplished by listening to the Dhamma, diììhujukamma or correction of one's views, kusala accomplished by acquiring right view of realities. Whenever the citta does not apply itself to one of these ten meritorious deeds, it is not kusala citta." Sujin Boriharnwannaket Survey of Paramattha Dhammas For me, it's hardest to see the danger in enjoying the beauties of nature and my inclination is always to delight in them, indulge in them and cling to them--this is unwise attention, though, I think. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan D. To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:56 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? > Thanks be to God, Christine -- an effective means to dissipate the > feeling and opinion of Self-importance and to take the sting out of > the nagging doubts about where to put gratitude and feelings of > bereftness. > > Is this kusala or akusala? Some who read this post will react with > strong dosa: "The mention of something so wrong-headed and, frankly, > stupid and obviously wrong as 'God' can only reveal a deep, pitiful > ignorance about the world and will be condemned to painful rebirths > on account of a sick wrong view." However, "God" exists just as > surely as do you or I (perhaps more so, depending on how you > define "God") ... or any of the other conceived, compounded nouns we > habitually use in conventional speech to communicate cleanly. > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear group, > > > > When I came out of work tonight, the air was quite fresh and > chilly, > > still a novelty at the beginning of winter in the sub-tropics. The > > trees were full of rainbow lorikeets that had flown down from the > > rainforest to roost in the safety of the carpark lights, for once > > displacing the noisy miners on the branches. The sky had lots of > > clouds in bumps and rows like the patterns made by the outgoing > tide > > on the sand - all the different patterns were bright orangey-pink > on > > the blue background of the sky. I just felt an overwheming > gratitude > > and thankfulness - but then felt bereft when I considered to > > whom/what could I offer thanks ... gratitude has to go somewhere. > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23260 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 9:00am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization, accumulations. Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 6:40 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & > Serialization, accumulations. > > > Without touching on each detail of what > you said here, I certainly > agree with the thrust of it. Realizing that what > is usually taken for some "me" > going through a process of observing an > apparently short and simple sequence of > "things in here" or "things out there" actually > amounts to a complex flow of > flickerings from one sense door to another, > involving a dazzling stream of > arisings and ceasings of observed conditions, all > quite impersonal and > uncontrollable (by any "me"), is wonderfully > illuminating and freeing. What we usually > "see" consists of only what occurs at the surface > level of awareness, all the > rest slipping by, subliminal, unnoticed. And the > material we usually *do* get > to see largely consists of a conceptual summing > up infected by defilements, so > that "our world" seems to consist of "us" looking > at "things", all relatively > stable (some even permanent) and controllable (by > "us") - so, we are seeing > only the tip of the iceberg, and that through a > fog, and using binoculars with > clouded lenses! > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Leaving aside all the other disagreements, I do appreciate this very much! kom 23261 From: Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 5:34am Subject: Hello from a new (old!) member Dear friends, I'man old guy--74--who came to Buddhism subsequent to visiting Thailand for the first time in 1997. In the three weeks in Thailand I neverheard anyone raise their voices in anger. Our tour guides were such impressive people--gentle, calm, focused. Both had been novice monks for a time. Well, I now sit with the Tucson Community Meditation Center sangha. I have a daily sitting practice at home. I have attended several excellent retreats with some excellent teachers. Now I'm starting to read the Pali texts--in translation, of course! I send greetings to each of you. Metta, Clyde Appleton (clydera@a...) 23262 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 9:54am Subject: Re: Hello from a new (old!) member Dear Clyde, Whether you are a new or an old member it is not a problem. You said that you start your learning Pali translation. At some time could you please share what you have read? We all will be looking forward to hearing from you. Htoo Naing 23263 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, penetration Dear Larry, op 29-06-2003 08:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Consciousness penetrates the characteristics by being the vehicle thru > which panna cetasika functions. N: I would not say so. Panna penetrates, but panna is always coarising with citta. Citta, sanna and panna arising together experience the object, in this case one of the three characteristics at a time, but they each experience it in their own way. Panna penetartes and illuminates the object. Below more texts I collected from "Perfections" to show more what penetartion is. > L: Ultimately, what is penetrated is the khandhas or grasping of the > khandhas. Panna penetrates the khandhas or grasping and realizes > nibbana. N: What is penetrated is: the true nature of whatever object appears: any nama or rupa. When lokuttara citta accompanied by lokuttara panna arises the object is nibbana. Then the four noble Truths are penetrated. L:The khandhas continue for a while, but grasping ceases. > Eventually the khandhas cease. N: This is in the case of the arahat. L:Have you > decided on an alternative to "endeavour"? N: It stands for the four right efforts. Now some texts which make it clearer what penetration is. End of quote. Nina 23264 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 1:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? Howdy, Mike. A few comments... Mike writes: "Ha! Well-spoken, Dan. As 'an atheist' with an habitual aversion to religion, this is a timely reminder for me. The Buddha certainly had no problem with the idea of gods, why should I?" --> Dan Responds: I'm not talking about "gods" or any beings; simply "God", which is a conventional, everyday word like "I", "me", "self", etc. It is fine to use conventional, everyday words. The problem arises when there is misapprehension about the nature of the referent (whether existing or not). What could "God" refer to? Some possibilities would include: (1) Law of Nature, (2) Dhamma, (3) the conditions that produce kusala cittas. No need to think about a white haired man in the sky when you use the word "God", just as there is no need to imagine the existence of some enduring "Soul" when invoking the word "I". Mike continues: "That said, though, I think it's far better to see the danger in pleasant feelings arising with sense- and mind-contacts than to feel grateful for them, no matter how pleasant--" --> Dan responds: Joy is kusala, provided it is free from attachment. No need to feel frightened or nervous or wary about pleasant feelings arising with sense- and mind-contacts! Enjoy, but be fully aware that the arising of pleasant sensation is conditioned and does not last. Mike continues: "For me, it's hardest to see the danger in enjoying the beauties of nature and my inclination is always to delight in them, indulge in them and cling to them--this is unwise attention, though, I think." --> Dan responds: Do you feel nervous or wary of enjoying the beauties of nature? This can't be kusala, can it? Dan 23265 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 2:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? Hi Dan, ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan D. To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 1:39 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? > Howdy, Mike. A few comments... > > Mike writes: "Ha! Well-spoken, Dan. As 'an atheist' with an > habitual aversion to religion, this is a timely reminder for me. The > Buddha certainly had no problem with the idea of gods, why should I?" > > --> Dan Responds: I'm not talking about "gods" or any beings; > simply "God", which is a conventional, everyday word > like "I", "me", "self", etc. It is fine to use conventional, everyday > words. The problem arises when there is misapprehension about the > nature of the referent (whether existing or not). What could "God" > refer to? Some possibilities would include: (1) Law of Nature, (2) > Dhamma, (3) the conditions that produce kusala cittas. No need to > think about a white haired man in the sky when you use the > word "God", just as there is no need to imagine the existence of some > enduring "Soul" when invoking the word "I". Well, OK--I think all three are a stretch (I certainly can't think of any textual support for these) but this is just my opinion. By the way, apologies to anyone my comments might have offended--there weren't meant to offend. > Mike continues: "That said, though, I think it's far better to see > the danger in pleasant feelings arising with sense- and mind-contacts > than to feel grateful for them, no matter how pleasant--" > > --> Dan responds: Joy is kusala, provided it is free from attachment. As I understand it, there is joy that is associated with the goal (piiti, an enlightenment factor) and joy that isn't. The joy that isn't can be kusala but only leads to further rebirth and is not associated with the goal even though kusala. Then, of course, there's the joy that isn't even kusala--important, in my opinion, to distinguish between these. So, as you say, joy is kusala if free from attachment (a rarity in my opinion) but may still not be connected with the goal. The third kind of joy is extremely rare, I think. > No need to feel frightened or nervous or wary about pleasant feelings > arising with sense- and mind-contacts! Enjoy, but be fully aware that > the arising of pleasant sensation is conditioned and does not last. This is something I've grappled with before--the Buddha often talked about the importance of 'seeing danger' and this does sound like fear, nervousness or wariness, doesn't it? But of course the Buddha would not speak so as to arouse akusala. > Mike continues: "For me, it's hardest to see the danger in > enjoying the beauties of nature and my inclination is always to > delight in them, indulge in them and cling to them--this is unwise > attention, though, I think." > > --> Dan responds: Do you feel nervous or wary of enjoying the > beauties of nature? This can't be kusala, can it? I see danger in finding delight in conditioned phenomena, and I think this is consistent with the Dhamma. Of course, in my case, there's pretty much always akusala of some kind or other occuring. I do think that, when wise attention (to sense- and mind-impressions) arises, it arises with equanimity, not with fear, nervousness or wariness--and certainly not with attachment. Sorry if my comments seemed to suggest otherwise! mike 23266 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 3:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? Hi Dan, p.s. "...And what is the food for the arising of unarisen sensual desire, or for the growth & increase of sensual desire once it has arisen? There is the theme of beauty. To foster inappropriate attention to it: This is the food for the arising of unarisen sensual desire, or for the growth & increase of sensual desire once it has arisen..." Samyutta Nikaya XLVI.51 Ahara Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn46-051.html Unfortunately, akusala is the most natural thing in the world. I grew up in the country and have been a lifelong nature-lover and well known for it since childhood. I used to think that love of nature was the ultimate good--now I think it's just attachment. Of course I may be wrong! mike 23267 From: Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, penetration Thanks Nina, I appreciate your efforts. Larry 23268 From: Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 1:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from a new (old!) member Hi, "old guy"! ;-)) Say hello to "aging guy" - just 13 years your junior. ;-) In a message dated 7/3/03 12:44:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, clydera@a... writes: > Dear friends, > I'man old guy--74--who came to Buddhism subsequent to visiting Thailand > for the first time in 1997. In the three weeks in Thailand I neverheard > anyone raise their voices in anger. Our tour guides were such impressive > people--gentle, calm, focused. Both had been novice monks for a time. > Well, I now > sit with the Tucson Community Meditation Center sangha. I have a daily > sitting > practice at home. I have attended several excellent retreats with some > excellent teachers. Now I'm starting to read the Pali texts--in > translation, of > course! I send greetings to each of you. Metta, Clyde Appleton > (clydera@a...) > > =============================== It sounds to me like you have a lovely practice! Perhaps you've started a bit later in this lifetime than some, but you've hit the ground running! I'm sure you'll get much out of this list. The folks here are very knowledgeable when it comes to the suttas, and, far more so than on some other lists, many here (I'm not one) are well read in Abhidhamma and the Theravadin commentaries. So there is much of value to learn here. You will also come to see different understandings expressed here on what constitutes the Buddha's Dhamma, but the disagreements are always pleasant and very productive. This is because there are really lovely people here, not least of whom are the list owners. So, welcome! And enjoy! With metta, Howard (One of the members) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23269 From: Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 2:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? Hi, Mike - In a message dated 7/3/03 5:55:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > I see danger in finding delight in conditioned phenomena, and I think this > is consistent with the Dhamma. ============================ Following this dictum, Mike, I'm afraid we're all going to have an existence bereft of delight for a long, long time! From my perspective, the more free folks are of "self", the more delight they find in the simplest of things. The monks I have known who are serious practitioners are among the happiest folks I've ever seen, taking delight in almost everything. I remember once when I visited a Thai monk at a monastery not far from my home, there was a tiny, baby cockroach (!) on his saucer. I said to the monk "It looks like you have a visitor!" He laughed out loud delightedly, and gently took the little insect into his hand and escorted him out the door of the monastery. To me, this was a lesson in love and delight. Should we close ourselves off to the pleasure of metta and mudita? To the pleasure of seeing the play of baby animals? To the pleasure felt at hearing the first joyful laugh of a human child? Should we suppress what arises, or just see it clearly and do no harm? I think the latter. With metta and the sincerest wish for your delight, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23270 From: Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 2:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from a new (old!) member Hi, all - I writing to clyde, age 74, I wrote: > Say hello to "aging guy" - just 13 years your junior. ;-) ================================ Evidently, I'm aging so fast I can't count any more! Make that 11 years, not 13! I guess I must have been grasping at youth! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23271 From: bodhi2500 Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 8:31pm Subject: Re: Inquiry to Nina... for Victor Hi Azita and Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > I present my question about Nibbana a little differently. > In Nina's book 'Conditions' p36, it says 'anything can be object of > clinging, except Nibbana'. Why is this? > > Thanks for dragging me out of the lurkers' corner, Victor. > patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita My understanding is that not only Nibbana but also the Lokuttara Magga and Phala cittas and cetasikas of Sotapanna,Sakadagami,Anagami and Arahant can not be objects of clinging. My guess on why they cant be objects of clinging is because those states are free from clinging. I think that it may be possible for a Sotapanna to have clinging to the thinking/memory of the experience of Nibbana, but this would be clinging to a concept, not a direct clinging to Nibbana itself. Maybe someone can offer a more knowledgeable answer. Azita, you mentioned in another post that you may be able to make it to the next Cooran meeting? If so looking forward to seeing you again. Take care Steve 23272 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization, accumulations. Dear Howard, op 03-07-2003 15:40 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Realizing that what is usually taken for some "me" > going through a process of observing an apparently short and simple sequence > of > "things in here" or "things out there" actually amounts to a complex flow of > flickerings from one sense door to another, involving a dazzling stream of > arisings and ceasings of observed conditions, all quite impersonal and > uncontrollable (by any "me"), is wonderfully illuminating and freeing. N: I agree with Kom that this is very well expressed. It helps to think of conditions, that you cannot force anything. I spoke with Lodewijk who was nervous about the piano teacher, he is so sarcastical at times. No good to be nervous about it. A safe feeling that whatever we experienced is conditioned anyway. Nina. 23273 From: Andrew Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 10:34pm Subject: Re: What do you do with gratitude? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I just felt an overwheming gratitude > and thankfulness - but then felt bereft when I considered to > whom/what could I offer thanks ... gratitude has to go somewhere. > Hi Christine and others This is another of those "party pooper" thoughts Buddhists are famous for - I wonder if there is a relation between (1) joyful feeling and desire to show gratitude somewhere; and (2) ill feeling and desire to blame someone or something eg. "I have a dreadful cold which I'm sure I caught from my spouse" or "That man's voice always gives me a headache". Re what to do with the joyful feeling/gratitude, is it not that you can't do anything with it (beyond experience it) because it has actually passed into non-existence? Metta, Andrew 23274 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 2:35am Subject: Re: What do you do with gratitude? Dear All, Thanks to everyone for their thought provoking replies. According to Buddhadatta's English-Pali Dictionary, the Pali word for 'gratitude' is "katavekitaa". I thought I would look it up in the PED to get any scriptural references. I .. eventually .. found my way to this entry: "Katannuta (f.) [abstr. fr. last] gratefulness (defined at KhA 144 as katassa jananata) Sn 265; J I.122 (T. °na, v. l. °ta); III.25; Pv II.97; VvA 63; Sdhp 497, 540. In combn with katavedita S II.272; A I.61; II.226, 229. katannu--katavedita J III.492. --akatannuta ungratefulness, in combn with akatavedita A I.61; III.273; J V.419; as one of the 4 offences deserving of Niraya A II.226." http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Sounds like gratefulness is 'good' and Ungratefulness is 'bad'. So - if this last part is saying that ungratefulness is one of the four offences deserving of Niraya (the downward-path), what are the other three? I also wonder if the emotion sweeping over me when seeing the sunset and birds, and feeling the crisp air was really 'gratitude'. I think it was - it came after delight. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23275 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: What do you do with gratitude? [Christine] Wonderful, Chris! Thanks. > Thanks to everyone for their thought provoking replies. > According to Buddhadatta's English-Pali Dictionary, the Pali word > for 'gratitude' is "katavekitaa". I thought I would look it up in > the PED to get any scriptural references. I .. eventually .. found > my way to this entry: > "Katannuta (f.) [abstr. fr. last] gratefulness (defined at KhA 144 as > katassa jananata) Sn 265; J I.122 (T. °na, v. l. °ta); III.25; Pv > II.97; VvA 63; Sdhp 497, 540. In combn with katavedita S II.272; A > I.61; II.226, 229. katannu--katavedita J III.492. --akatannuta > ungratefulness, in combn with akatavedita A I.61; III.273; J V.419; > as one of the 4 offences deserving of Niraya A II.226." > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html > > Sounds like gratefulness is 'good' and Ungratefulness is 'bad'. > So - if this last part is saying that ungratefulness is one of the > four offences deserving of Niraya (the downward-path), what are the > other three? I also wonder if the emotion sweeping over me when > seeing the sunset and birds, and feeling the crisp air was > really 'gratitude'. I think it was - it came after delight. 23276 From: Gina Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 4:30am Subject: Buddhist Meditation for Insight Development Any of us have at one time or another found the toll of living in the modern world hard to bear. Stress, depression and disillusionment are some of the diseases of modern times that leave us yearning for a solution, a cure, so to speak. More and more people are turning to meditation as they fail to find the answer through worldly paths. Meditation is found in some form or other in all major religious traditions. Even those who are not religious use it to focus the mind, to hone it, so that it works better. In Buddhism, meditation is the integral to the eight-fold path to enlightenment. One trains one's mind so that it can see the four-point Supreme Truth that forms the core of Buddha's teachings: suffering, what causes it, the end of suffering, and the path to that end. Even if you are not interested in Buddhism, meditation is a valuable training that can be applied to daily life, for it helps with concentration and when done correctly can lead to a state of peace and calmness that's beyond worldly joys. There are two main branches in Buddhist meditation: samatha (calmness, concentration) and vipassana (insight), which stresses mindfulness. This doesn't mean that the two are entirely separate, since you cannot be mindful unless you have at least some level of concentration. Mantra meditation, in which you repeat a few words over and over, is also widely practiced. Followers of this technique may chant "Buddh" as they inhale, and "dho" as they exhale. The words may vary, but the purpose of chanting is really to get the mind focused. Yet another widely taught technique is kasinas, where meditators concentrate on an object outside themselves, such as the flame of a candle, or a crystal ball. Sati, or mindfulness, is key to vipassana meditation. You train yourself to be aware of the body's action, the rise and fall of your chest as you inhale and exhale, the movement of your feet and legs as you walk, as well as your feelings, your thought, and finally, the state of mind you are in. Walking, sitting and lying meditation are but a few of vipassana techniques. When the mind is untrained, concentration can be shattered by the slightest stimuli—noise, smell, heat, hunger, pain, etc. The key is to become aware of what happens, but not dwell on it. Still, a novice can only ward off so much distraction, and that's one reason why vipassana retreats are usually held in peaceful and isolated settings. For mediumship / meditation Development http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medium 23277 From: Gina Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 8:16am Subject: Hi any Thais here? Hi, I'm Thai, and I am new to this group. I have my own group where I combine Thevarada and Spiritualism. I hope I can find information from this group to be used in my group to educate people as well. Gina http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medium 23278 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 9:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Guarding the senses Tom Welcome to the list, and thanks for the useful reminder about guarding the senses. > the mind is a monkey that jumps fro tree to tree if left > unattneded, so the lesson here is to be vigilant and guard the > gates of our senses. do not let mara tempt you as he did Our Loord > Buddha while sitting under the bodhi tree. Would you care to share with us your understanding of the meaning of guarding the senses, as taught in the suttas? Thanks. Jon 23279 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 9:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from a new (old!) member Clyde Hello and welcome. I appreciate your obvious enthusiasm for the teachings. Please feel free to share with us any comments or questions you may have arising from your reading of the texts (or your pracice, or generally, for that matter). Jon --- clydera@a... wrote: > Dear friends, > I'man old guy--74--who came to Buddhism subsequent to visiting > Thailand > for the first time in 1997. In the three weeks in Thailand I > neverheard > anyone raise their voices in anger. Our tour guides were such > impressive > people--gentle, calm, focused. Both had been novice monks for a > time. Well, I now > sit with the Tucson Community Meditation Center sangha. I have a > daily sitting > practice at home. I have attended several excellent retreats with > some > excellent teachers. Now I'm starting to read the Pali texts--in > translation, of > course! I send greetings to each of you. Metta, Clyde Appleton > (clydera@a...) 23280 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 10:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 3 Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 3 In the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct², in the ³Miscellaneous Sayings² it is explained as to each perfection to which kind of akusala it is opposed. We read about generosity: ³Further, giving is opposed to greed, hatred, and delusion, since it applies the qualities of non-greed, non-hatred, and non-delusion to gifts, recipients, and the fruits of giving, respectively.² As we read, the perfection of generosity is opposed to akusala, to lobha, dosa and moha, because when one is generous and accumulates the perfection of generosity, one practises the quality of non-attachment to one¹s gift. If someone still clings to the object he will give, he cannot give, he regrets the loss of his gift. He may think of giving, but he cannot give, he desires to wait for an opportunity to give. If someone is not firmly established in his determination to give, he may think of giving, but he does not give. At such a moment there is no generosity that is opposed to attachment. Whereas, when there is true generosity, it is accompanied by non-attachment; one does not cling to the object one is giving. At the moment of kusala citta there is also non-aversion towards the person who receives the gift. If one is displeased and dislikes the receiver, one will not give. This may happen when someone sees a beggar and notices that he has physical strength; he may be irritated and hence does not give. Or when someone sees a handicapped child the beggar takes along, he may be irritated about the beggar causing affliction to his child, and then he does not give. When generosity arises it has to be accompanied by the good qualities of non-attachment to the gift, non-aversion towards the receiver and it may be accompanied by non-delusion or paññå as well. When paññå knows the result of generosity, when it realizes that generosity is wholesome, there is true liberality and defilements are abandoned. We read further on in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² about síla and renunciation: ³Virtue, síla, is opposed to greed, hatred, and delusion, since it removes crookedness and corruption in bodily conduct, etc. Renunciation, nekkhamma, is opposed to these three corruptions since it avoids indulgence in sense pleasures, the affliction of others, and self-mortification. If we do not cling to sense pleasures it is natural that there will also be less aversion. If someone has a great deal of attachment to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object, but does not obtain these objects, he will be displeased. 23281 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 10:00am Subject: my time with A. Sujin. 2. Dear Kio and all, My time with A. Sujin. 2. When I was at her house, she explained about nama and rupa, about kusala citta and akusala citta. She answered my questions and very soon made me work for an English radio program. The first chapters that you find in ³Buddhism in Daily Life² are from my notes with my conversations with A. Sujin. Every two weeks I had to finish a new chapter. It was a busy, but happy time. She helped me to see that all those different cittas, cetasikas and rupas occur in daily life. I learnt that whatever occurs is conditioned; that good and bad inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and that these condition our behaviour. Everything I learnt was relevant to daily life. An example: we visited a bhikkhu who smiled when I told him about my interest in the teachings. A. Sujin asked me whether I knew why he smiled. She explained, because of happy feeling, somanassa. This sounds very simple, but it made me realize that feeling conditions our outward appearance. Conditions, she reminded me of them in the situation. We were waiting near a kuti, a bhikkhu¹s dwelling, for a certain monk. He was not there and I suggested that we would find out about him. She said, let us sit at this stone and just wait and see what happens because of conditions. We sat quietly for quite some time. What a good lesson, I am so grateful for all those reminders I received in the situation. It is true: we think of people we want to meet, but in fact, there are only different experiences, such as seeing, hearing and thinking, and they are all conditioned. Seeing and hearing are conditioned by kamma, thinking are kusala cittas or akusala cittas which have as objects the story, a whole of all our impressions. I was used to take notice only of the outward appearance of people, but now I learnt about different cittas which condition our behaviour. People may look very pleasant and peaceful, but what do we know about the cittas which change from moment to moment? When crossing a street she said: elements on elements, and it is so true: hardness appears, and it is only an element. We think of feet and street, but let us consider what can be directly experienced. However, it took many years before all these lessons were absorbed, and I needed later on during different journeys many explanations about the difference between thinking and awareness, before I understood a little more. (Later on I come back to this). A. Sujin used to go in retreat in a center but one day she realized that actually daily realities are the objects of vipassana. From then on she did not go anymore in retreat, and this happened not so long before I met her. Since most people were not used to this approach, they had many questions about vipassana in daily life. I found this approach the only reasobale one and did not doubt about its value. We have to know our own accumulations, our inclinations we take for self. They appear, and thus, they can be objects of insight. A. Sujin always stressed that there is no rule about how one should develop understanding and that one cannot direct what object appears at a particular moment. I find this most reasonable, because whatever is experienced by citta is conditioned. We went to different temples, also in the province. People asked questions about vipassana and concentration. Although I was just learning Thai, A. Sujin made me talk as well. I enjoyed simple life in the province, without any fringes. People treated me as one of them, and that is what makes me happy. People asked whether slowing down one¹s movements would help vipassana. A. Sujin asked one person to run and to find out whether there is any difference as to what realities are appearing. The conclusion was : it is all the same. True, seeing is always seeing, no matter we run or sit. Seeing is a citta, an ultimate reality that should be known as it is, non-self. I heard a dog barking and asked whether hearing a dog is an object of insight. She explained that hearing just sound is different from thinking of a dog. I listened, but only many years later I understood the point. People also asked: is this kusala, is that akusala. Her answer: you can only know for yourself. Nobody else can tell you. She also explained that it would be very easy if someone else tells you: do first this, then that and you will make progress. Her advice always was : there are no rules, there is no specific order of the objects insight can be developed. In the whole of the Tipitaka we learn about realities that arise because of condiitons and are non-self, now also in the practice we have to be consistent, how can we force ourselves to be aware of specific objects. She kept on warning us of subtle clinging to progress, to result. Expectations are lobha, attachment. She repeated many times: ³Don¹t expect anything². We should not expecxt anything from ourselves nor from others. Expectations bring sorrow. I am grateful for her example in this matter, and her example of patience and equanimity. Some people heavily critized her, but she was always patient and she calmly explained about cause and effect: what cause will bring what effect. We should be clear about this. Do we want only calm or is understanding our aim? (will be continued). 23282 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, endeavour Dear Larry, more about endeavour, from the Perfections, Energy. op 29-06-2003 08:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Have you > decided on an alternative to "endeavour"? N: We read in the ³Saddhammapajjotikå², the Commentary to the ³Tuvataka Sutta² (Speedy), in the Mahå-Niddesa, Khuddaka Nikåya, an explanation of the faculty, indriya, of viriya: .... The Commentary speaks further on about effort which has developed to the degree of the enlightenment factor of viriya (sambhojjhanga), one of the factors pertaining to the realization of the four noble Truths. The Commentary uses the Påli term viriyårambha. Årambha can mean beginning, attempt or effort. Viriyårambha is viriya cetasika, it is the putting forth of energy, such as effort to apply oneself to the Buddha¹s teachings. We read further on about the characteristic of energy which should be developed 9: ³Effort is called Œårambha¹ because it is striving. The term viriyårambha renders the characteristic of that kind of striving. What kind of striving? It is striving by way of escaping from idleness. Onward effort is so called by virtue of reaching a higher and higher state. Exertion is so called by virtue of rising up and keeping going. Endeavour is so called by virtue of special exertion; zeal, of being zealous; vigour, of firmness; fortitude, of bearing (supporting) citta and cetasikas, or of bearing the continuity of kusala by unbroken procedure.² These are the characteristics of viriya. It is the escaping from idleness, progressing towards a higher state, continued exertion without stopping, zeal and fortitude by progressing on. We read in the Commentary: ³Another method of exposition: -This viriyårambha is Œstriving¹ in expelling lust, Œonward effort¹ in cutting the bonds, Œexertion¹ in escaping from the floods 10, Œendeavour¹ in reaching the further shore, Œzeal¹ in being a forerunner, Œardour¹ in exceeding the limit, Œvigour¹ in lifting the bolt (of ignorance), and Œfortitude¹ in producing steadfastness.¹Verily, let the skin, veins and bones dry up¹ 11 - thus by virtue of unfaltering effort at such time is the Œstate of a man of unfaltering effort¹.² The Commentary explains further that energy does not let go of the desire-to-do, chanda (which is necessary to accomplish something), that it does not give up the task, and does not give in to discouragement with regard to the performing of kusala. > Nina. 23283 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 5:44pm Subject: Re: Inquiry to Nina... for Victor --- Hello Steve, Thanks for this, however----- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi Azita and Victor > > My understanding is that not only Nibbana but also the Lokuttara > Magga and Phala cittas and cetasikas of Sotapanna,Sakadagami,Anagami > and Arahant can not be objects of clinging. > > My guess on why they cant be objects of clinging is because those > states are free from clinging. I think that it may be possible for a > Sotapanna to have clinging to the thinking/memory of the experience > of Nibbana, but this would be clinging to a concept, not a direct > clinging to Nibbana itself. > > Maybe someone can offer a more knowledgeable answer. > > Azita, you mentioned in another post that you may be able to make it > to the next Cooran meeting? If so looking forward to seeing you again. > > Take care > Steve --I can understand that at the moment of experiencing Nibbana, there is no clinging; have been thinking about it and I wonder if bec. it is so different to anything we now experience eg. conditioned phenomena, that it is an impossibilty to cling to an unconditioned phenomena??? If there is no more knowledgeable answer forthcoming, Steve, it may be a good one for discussion at Cooran. I've applied for that w/e off work, so if I get it, I'll be down - with millions of warm clothes!!!! See you then, patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 23284 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 9:46pm Subject: Parents Dear Group, One of the reasons I occasionally wish I had been a Born Buddhist is because that would mean my mother would have been a buddhist already. But this is not so - she is typical of her generation >75years, a staunch Anglican (but doesn't attend church), suspicious of anything not Anglo-Saxon and not accredited by the Queen (as we all know Jesus had blue eyes and auburn hair like the pictures, and don't even think of explaining that he may have looked something like Osama or Saddam). Sometimes I feel the burden of her not knowing the Dhamma, but also feel that anything I would currently say would be disturbing to an elderly lady who is becoming conscious of her own mortality. Her father served in the English army in India eighty years ago, so her idea of any Indian religion or philosophy is rather fixed and negative. Once, she was an agnostic, but these days she clings more tightly to the idea of a loving Saviour-God, and being reunited with her parents, brothers and sisters in heaven. The Buddha tells us: "I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay. Which two? Your mother & father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, and were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate & urinate right there [on your shoulders], you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. If you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. Why is that? Mother & father do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them, they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in conviction; rouses his unvirtuous mother & father, settles & establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his foolish mother & father, settles & establishes them in discernment: To this extent one pays & repays one's mother & father." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-031.html So, what to do? What would be the most compassionate path - not to disturb her need for her beliefs to be true, not to make her anxious? (let sleeping dogs lie). Or to give it a go again, try to discuss the Teachings some more, and perhaps make her unhappy and uncertain? (Once more into the Breach, Deare friends, once more). I am also conscious that the Buddha taught that this human birth was so incredibly rare, with no guarantee when we may have one again, and that this human realm is the only place for worldlings to hear the Dhamma. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 23285 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 10:20pm Subject: Re: What do you do with gratitude? Andrew (and Christine) . . , --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > > Re what to do with the joyful feeling/gratitude, is it not that you > can't do anything with it (beyond experience it) because it has > actually passed into non-existence? > I agree, we can't do anything with it. When we step outside on a glorious, clear winter's night, see the orange clouds, hear the lorikeets in the trees and then be reminded of the Dhamma, we can't do anything about it. So what should we do? I don't think it is necessarily the time to reflect on the nature of pleasant feelings. Why should we single out pleasant feelings when there are all sorts of sense objects and mental objects coming and going at break-neck speeds? The fact that we single out pleasant feeling, suggests that we don't know the difference between 'dhammas' and 'thinking about dhammas.' In the course of daily life, reminders of the Dahmma present precious opportunities but, all too often, forgetfulness occurs immediately afterwards. I know we aren't looking for a formal practice to cling to at such moments, but what thoughts would, ideally, occur to us? Would it be a good time to reflect on one of the four objects of meditation (the Buddha, metta, death, foulness)? (?) Kind regards, Ken 23286 From: Gina Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 1:11pm Subject: Can anyone explain Nirvana? Is Karma is Dhamma? Hi, Growing up in Thailand, I just went along to the temples. Studied Buddhism in school didn't mean much. Thais don't teach children to understand rather than memorizing Buddha dates, ceremonials, etc. Now can one explain if Karma is the same as Dharma? Som 23287 From: Dr Jose M Sanz-Tonnelier Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 10:21pm Subject: Re: Parents Dear Christine, Your mother is one of the most preciuos thing you have. As you know , we can not become a monk unless I have my mothers blessings.My mother passed away 2 years ago and she was an staunch Roman Catholic, very suspicious about my feelings in Buddhism. I never tyied to talk about buddhism, I just let her know by my actions and behaviour what buddhism was. Funny enough, when she died and we read her will she requested that her ashes be kept by me at the temple and the day that I die her ashes be mix together with mine and be given a buddhist burial. At her age she just need kindness, love and compassion. No lessons, you show her your love and the buddhist way with your actions. Metta. Venerable Yanatharo. Ajahn Jose > So, what to do? What would be the most compassionate path - not to > disturb her need for her beliefs to be true, not to make her anxious? > (let sleeping dogs lie). Or to give it a go again, try to discuss > the Teachings some more, and perhaps make her unhappy and uncertain? > (Once more into the Breach, Deare friends, once more). > > I am also conscious that the Buddha taught that this human birth was > so incredibly rare, with no guarantee when we may have one again, and > that this human realm is the only place for worldlings to hear the > Dhamma. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 23288 From: Gina Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 8:39am Subject: Re: Parents You don't have to born as Buddhist. You can always study Buddhism. He teaches us to respect everyone as equal. Somjai --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > One of the reasons I occasionally wish I had been a Born Buddhist is > because that would mean my mother would have been a buddhist > already. ... > So, what to do? What would be the most compassionate path - not to > disturb her need for her beliefs to be true, not to make her anxious? > (let sleeping dogs lie). Or to give it a go again, try to discuss > the Teachings some more, and perhaps make her unhappy and uncertain? 23289 From: Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 5:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Parents Hi, Bhante - In a message dated 7/5/03 11:41:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sanz@n... writes: > Dear Christine, > Your mother is one of the most preciuos thing you have. As you know , we can > not become a monk unless I have my mothers blessings.My mother passed away 2 > years ago and she was an staunch Roman Catholic, very suspicious about my > feelings in Buddhism. I never tyied to talk about buddhism, I just let her know > by my actions and behaviour what buddhism was. Funny enough, when she died > and we read her will she requested that her ashes be kept by me at the temple > and the day that I die her ashes be mix together with mine and be given a > buddhist burial. At her age she just need kindness, love and compassion. No > lessons, you show her your love and the buddhist way with your actions. > Metta. Venerable Yanatharo. Ajahn Jose > ======================== What a lovely post, Bhante. As usual, if I may be forgiven for evaluating, when it comes to matters of the heart you are right on target. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23290 From: Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 8:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Can anyone explain Nirvana? Is Karma is Dhamma? Hi Som Dharma is generally twofold in meaning... Either "the reality of existence" or the "teaching about the reality of existence." Karma has a different meaning. Technically it means "action." Karma is something like a "field of ethical energy." This "field" is generated by ethical (morally relevant) actions. Hurtful action produce a "hurtful field" and lead to hurtful results for the "doer." The opposite for actions that result in pleasant experiences. (Almost like electrical fields of energy.) Nirvana means "putting out" as in extinction or extinguish. Since the Buddha determined that "the system" that constitutes a human being is more trouble than its worth and that there is no self at "its" core, merely a delusion of "self," that it was/is best to "put it out." A person that has attained Nirvana while still living has "put out" the karma/action that can lead to future rebirth. Their remaining body/mind system is considered residue from past karma/action. After they die the "residue" is also extinguished. As to whether there is any sort of "after death" experience of an "arahat/fully-enlightened-being" is debated among Buddhists but there seems to be no evidence in the Buddha's teachings to support an "after-life-experience" theory regarding an arahat. Take care. TG In a message dated 7/5/2003 8:38:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, medium@a... writes: > Hi, > > Growing up in Thailand, I just went along to the temples. Studied > Buddhism in school didn't mean much. Thais don't teach children to > understand rather than memorizing Buddha dates, ceremonials, etc. > > Now can one explain if Karma is the same as Dharma? > > Som > 23291 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 4:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? Hi Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? > Hi, Mike - > > In a message dated 7/3/03 5:55:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > mlnease@z... writes: > > > I see danger in finding delight in conditioned phenomena, and I think this > > is consistent with the Dhamma. > ============================ > Following this dictum, Mike, I'm afraid we're all going to have an > existence bereft of delight for a long, long time! > From my perspective, the more free folks are of "self", the more > delight they find in the simplest of things. The monks I have known who are serious > practitioners are among the happiest folks I've ever seen, taking delight in > almost everything. I remember once when I visited a Thai monk at a monastery > not far from my home, there was a tiny, baby cockroach (!) on his saucer. I > said to the monk "It looks like you have a visitor!" He laughed out loud > delightedly, and gently took the little insect into his hand and escorted him out the > door of the monastery. To me, this was a lesson in love and delight. Friendliness, compassion and gladness are all wholesome and can arise with wholesome joy (piiti), as I understand it. > Should we close ourselves off to the pleasure of metta and mudita? To > the pleasure of seeing the play of baby animals? To the pleasure felt at > hearing the first joyful laugh of a human child? Should we suppress what arises, or > just see it clearly and do no harm? I think the latter. Attachment to sense- and mind-pleasures is unwholesome, as I understand it--no matter how 'innocent' the conceptual basis of the attachment. > With metta and the sincerest wish for your delight, Thanks for your comments and good wishes--I hope it's clear now that my comments were meant to distinguish between akusala happiness (attachment to pleasant sense- and mind-objects), kusala happiness (such as that arising with the brahmaviharas you mentioned) and happiness connected with the goal. "...having seen a material shape with the eye, do not be entranced with the general appearance, do not be entranced with the detail; for if one dwells with the organ of sight uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, evil, unskillful states of mind, may flow in. So fare along controlling it, guard the organ of sight, achieve control over the organ of sight. Having heard a sound with the ear... Having smelt a smell with the nose... Having savored a taste with the tongue... Having felt a touch with the body... Having cognized a mental state with the mind, do not be entranced with the detail. For if one dwells with the organ of mind uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, evil, unskillful states of mind, may flow in. So fare along controlling it; guard the organ of mind, achieve control over the organ of mind." Dantabhumi-sutta, Majjhima-Nikaya No. 125 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel051.html Best wishes to you too, Howard, mike p.s. The Buddha's words above were addressed to a bhikkhu, for whom guarding the sense- and mind-doors are much more important than for laypeople, I think. Still very useful to investigate presently arising (and very recently arisen) states, I think. 23292 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 5:06pm Subject: Re: Parents Dear Ajahn Jose, I found your post sensible and full of understanding. Aging is a strange thing, the body grows older but the consciousness and emotions always seem to be about 12 - 14 years old. There is full intelligence, but a person can be easily bewildered and made anxious by the mystery of life and its incomprehensible purpose. I'll take your advice "No lessons, you show her your love and the buddhist way with your actions". metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dr Jose M Sanz-Tonnelier" wrote: > Dear Christine, > Your mother is one of the most preciuos thing you have. As you know , we can not become a monk unless I have my mothers blessings.My mother passed away 2 years ago and she was an staunch Roman Catholic, very suspicious about my feelings in Buddhism. I never tyied to talk about buddhism, I just let her know by my actions and behaviour what buddhism was. Funny enough, when she died and we read her will she requested that her ashes be kept by me at the temple and the day that I die her ashes be mix together with mine and be given a buddhist burial. At her age she just need kindness, love and compassion. No lessons, you show her your love and the buddhist way with your actions. > Metta. Venerable Yanatharo. Ajahn Jose 23293 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 5:23pm Subject: Re: Can anyone explain Nirvana? Is Karma is Dhamma? -- hello Som, Sawatdee, kha. Welcome to dsg. I understand karma [kamma] to be action/volition, both good and bad actions [kusala and akusala], which lead to continued rebirth in samsara. Dharma [Dhamma in Pali], has actually many meanings. For example, there is the Buddha's Dhamma, his teachings which we can study; Dhamma can also be used for all realities: quote from a book called 'A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' by A. Sujin Boriharnwanaket: 'The real purpose of the study of the Dhamma is, seeing that this very moment is dhamma, non self. All realities, dhammas, have to be known now, when they occur, so that wrong view of self can be eradicated' Nirvana [Nibbana] simply is the end of samsara. The extinction of greed, hatred and ignorance and all their associated states. "This, O monks, truly is the peace, this is the highest, namely the end of all formations, the forsaking of every substratum of rebirth, the fading away of craving, detachment, extinction, Nibbana." [A. 111, 32] Hope I haven't overloaded you, Som, with this information. Do you still live in Thailand? and if not, where do you live? - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Gina" wrote: > Hi, > > Growing up in Thailand, I just went along to the temples. Studied > Buddhism in school didn't mean much. Thais don't teach children to > understand rather than memorizing Buddha dates, ceremonials, etc. > > Now can one explain if Karma is the same as Dharma? > > Som 23294 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 5:31pm Subject: Re: Can anyone explain Nirvana? Is Karma is Dhamma? --- Dear Som, Apologies, I forgot to sign off my last post to you, My name is Azita, I lived in Thailand for about 2 years many years ago. I come from Australia. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 23295 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Regards to Robert Epstein --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Nina, Howard, Mike and other Rob Ep fans, > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > I was just going to tell you that I miss you. I understand that you > > cannot > > read all mails and that you need time for inspiration to write and think > > about your work re theater. > .... > I'm not so forgiving;-) I think Rob Ep needs to spend more time talking to > us and hearing about metta and compassion - he obviously doesn't fully > appreciate the suffering that goes with the attachment we all have to his > presence;-( Hi Sarah and Nina. Well it's taken me long enough to be "nudged" into showing up. I'm visiting in-laws in Denver, Colorado here in the U.S. and have a little time in the evening to write. I just wanted to thank all of you on-list for your kind statements towards me. I feel like Nina, in the sense that I did not expect to be so missed. Unlike Nina, I have not done the enormous amount of work she has done to deserve it. Thanks again to all my dhamma friends. I will try to come and stay in contact. Sarah is right: I am a bad person and need a lot of correction! : ) Best, Robert Ep. 23296 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] hi from Rob Ep! Hi Sarah. I am continuing my extremely belated replies to posts. I may disappear again, but I will resurface. If at some point, there is no "I" to resurface, that will be even more pleasant. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > HI!! Rob Ep!! > > So glad you've made it back... I'll hold my breath (plenty of practice > during SARS) and hope you don't run away again too soon;-) Glad SARS seems to have run its course....? Amazing what samsara can come up with, and glad you're okay. > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > >and still can't catch up with the flow of > > life! Hmn....there's a lesson in there somewhere.... > ..... > I was just quoting you to Lee with the `life's been catching up with > me'....I see now you're chasing life!! That's funny, Sarah. Maybe I should just stop running altogether..... > Your book sounds very interesting indeed - I'll look out for it and hope > not to pick up a book by that other Robert Epstein by mistake;-) Well it may be a while before it's published. I'll be a first-time author for publication, so I'll have to lobby for the book to be accepted at an appropriate publisher. Otherwise, I'll eventually do an on-line publishing kind of thing. Thanks for your interest! > Very happy birthday to Emily....(You've also just reminded me that I need > to give my brother a birthday call.) Perhaps your next book could be on > Emily's qus and your responses......do share any. We had a lot of > StarKids (a couple only 7yrs old) during the last year asking very > interesting and challenging questions. James, Kom and others gave some > fine responses - one day look under `children' in Useful Posts for some of > these. Emily would have been very at home. That sounds very interesting. I am a little depressed to see how far ahead of me Emily is already. As my brain cells tire, hers are just getting more electrified. Well, that's one good reason to have children -- I hope she'll remember some of the things I'm forgetting. I am really pretty excited to contemplate the possibilities in life for these advanced little children. Big responsibility to help them cultivate their awareness. > Look forward to reading your comments to Howard, Larry and all. Thanks, Sarah. Once again, I appreciate your warm messages, and am happy to be able to be here. Best, Robert Ep. 23297 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 1:15am Subject: Burma trip Dear Dhamma friends, After a long wait and much anticipation, the Board of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation finally decided to go with the company that took us to Sri Lanka. The dates of the trip are set for Oct. 20-24 and the cost will be about Bt 27,000 (US$643. approx). It is hoped that the itinerary will be set at long last and that I may be able to send it on to you as soon as possible. In addition, for all those who had signed up for the cancelled Alaska trip, please let me know if you have received the return of your deposits. I have not and and have been trying to contact the person in charge. So, when I hear more about that, I shall pass that info on to you as well. metta, Betty _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 e-mail: beyugala@k... 23298 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 1:25am Subject: THANK YOU LARRY! SADHU, SADHU, SADHU! Dear Larry, I know I'm running way behind the rest of you - I just finished the last post on The Way of Mindfulness by Soma Thera. May I express my deep gratitude for the way you diligently posted excerpts and encouraged discussion over almost eighteen months. Firstly with posting excerpts from Abhidhamma in Daily Life which started at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11786 and continued so regularly to the final post of that series at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15662 And then, graciously agreeing to continue and keep us studying by regularly posting sections from 'The Way of Mindulness' and commentary by Soma Thera, starting at Way 1: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15863 and finally coming to a completion at Way 105: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23070 I know that at times there may have been other things you would rather have done - never once did you voice any complaint or ask to be relieved of the task. This is a great example of faithfulness and dana. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. It is wonderful that even those who recently joined the list can, with a little detective work and the help of the search engine, follow the same course of study. I hope we sorted out that 'Gratitude is Good' because that's what I feel towards you, combined with metta and gladness. Onya Larry! The Quiet Achiever ... warm regards, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23299 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 1:32am Subject: Re: Burma trip Hello Betty, Great news! Looking forward to seeing the itinerary. I received my Alaska deposit back around about the 18th May. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mom Bongkojpriya \(Betty\) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends, > After a long wait and much anticipation, the Board of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation finally decided to go with the company that took us to Sri Lanka. The dates of the trip are set for Oct. 20- 24 and the cost will be about Bt 27,000 (US$643. approx). It is hoped that the itinerary will be set at long last and that I may be able to send it on to you as soon as possible. > > In addition, for all those who had signed up for the cancelled Alaska trip, please let me know if you have received the return of your deposits. I have not and and have been trying to contact the person in charge. So, when I hear more about that, I shall pass that info on to you as well. > > metta, > Betty > _______________________ > Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala > 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road > Bangkok 10900, Thailand > tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 > e-mail: beyugala@k... > > > 23300 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] mind, mind objects, intellect and ideas - confused? Hi Howard. I'm late again. Hope my comments on this topic will not be completely irrelevant at this point; but I wanted to try to complete the communication. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 6/6/03 1:58:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > > > Hi Howard. > > I'm not sure which category my sense of consciousness in this context > > would fall into, but to my common sense, Larry's sentence makes sense. > > When he says "the experience of sound is consciousness", and pending > > further clarification, it seems like he is saying that "consciousness > > experiences sound" and therefore when sound is experienced, > > consciousness is implicated. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Yes, I guess he is. I thought at first that he was saying that the > sound was consciousness. I certainly agree that the experiencing of sound (or of > anything else) is consciousness. > ------------------------------------------------------------- If he was saying that the sound *is* consciousness; I hope that would mean that the existence of sound is a form of consciousness, since there would be nothing that could be apprehended as sound except as a vibration within consciousness. In that sense, sound is consciousness. If one were to say, however, that consciousness is nothing but perception through the six sense-gates, then I would disagree with that. Now, I'm not sure which he was saying; I'll have to look up-thread to see if there's a further reply. > I always think of consciousness somewhat> > > as you have described it, as something which "tastes" or "knows" that > > which is its content. It has sentience or awareness to it. It may > > not matter whether that content is posited as existing independently, > > as simply being an object of mind that is part of consciousness > > itself, or if it is not specified what the status of the object of > > consciousness is, but is simply accepted as part of the "experience" > > that consciousness is having at that particular moment. > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay. There is the experiencing - that's the consciousness, and there > is what is experienced - that is the content or object, of consciousness, and > there is the entire, joint, cognitive event, for which we have no good term. > Perhaps a good term might be 'act of consciousness'. > -------------------------------------------------- I think it's hard to create a distinction between an act of experience as an aspect of consciousness, and the sense that we have with a degree of awareness or mindfulness, that the event being experienced is taking place "within" a more global awareness or consciousness. This usually opens up a big debate about whether consciousnes exists independently of an "act of consciousness". You and I, I think, feel that it does, and that the specific act of consciousness is like a ripple within a greater continuity or continuum of consciousness. The Abhidhammic description of individual conscious cittas and bhavanga cittas seems to be a slightly different model than this; tying consciousness more directly with the act it participates in. > > Thus in hearing a sound, one can, as I think you imply within the > > model of duality of hearer and sound, emphasize the sound as real, or > > the hearing as the experiential actuality. We do not know, since we > > cannot go beyond the mind in our current state, whether the hearing is > > dependent upon an actual sound "in the world", but we do know that the > > apprehension of the sound is completely dependent on hearing. > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And also completely dependent on the sound heard. It's like the inside > and the outside of box. There isn't one without the other. So the "duality" > is also a "unity". In fact, it is neither. It is the middle way. > ------------------------------------------------------ I like that; although I tend to think that sound is really a production of mind; that doesn't mean there isn't an object out there vibrating, but that doesn't produce "sound" per se, which is a perceptual-mental event. > So we> > > don't know if we are "sound collectors" but we do know that we are > > definitely "hearers." > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > There is no "we" who are either of these. There is hearing, there is > heard, and they go together. > ------------------------------------------------------- I wonder if the distinction between hearing and heard really exists in the act of hearing either? There may be no "we", no "heard", no "sound" per se, only "hearing" within and as a form of consciousness. > When we go back to the act of hearing and the> > > mind's capacity to "hear", we can experience the mind itself in > > action, and at the point in the mind where the sound is created as > > hearing within the mind itself, there is no sound to be posited > > separte from that hearing. That hearing exists in consciousness > > alone, at least at that point, and so n the inward-facing mode of > > hearing, focussed on the hearing, not the sound, then consciousness, > > hearing and sound are experienced as "one unified experience." > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree that, so to speak, there is "one unified experience," but I > think it is actually not-one and not-two. > ---------------------------------------------------------- How would you describe such an understanding positively? I don't really see it as "one" by saying it is unified; more like saying it is "none". Hearing takes place as the sound that is heard due to the hearing capacity of the mind; but in experience I don't think there is a distinction between hearing and sound. > > I used to think that to have this experience I had to somehow > > anaesthesize other parts of the mind, like the running commentary, or > > the sensation of duality, but now I think one can simply turn towards > > the capacity of the consciousness in question and the other dualistic > > processes don't go away, but become much more peripheral. > > > > Anyway, thanks for a chance to stretch the brain cells. This stuff > > seems to make my mind wake up. > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What it does to me is make me realize that I really don't know what is > what, and makes me less content with many of the standard answers. What I do > have exceedingly great confidence in is that the path practice the Buddha > taught will, eventually, permit me to really come to see what is what. > -------------------------------------------------------- Without that element of faith it is hard to keep returning to the path; especially since it seems very long. That confidence in the path I think is a great anchor. To see that we don't know what is what is probably a form of real understanding. When intellectual formulations are shown to be mere concepts, the mystery that is revealed is pretty intimidating. I remember when these scientists were getting enormous praise for discovering the pre-energy that existed right after the big bang, before that pre-substance differentiated into matter and energy. Around the same time, scientists, using the Hubble I think, discovered that there were hundreds or thousands of times more galaxies than they had originally thought. The interviewer was trying to praise one of these guys for the discoveries and the scientist said something like: "These discoveries are just totally intimidating. Before this we thought we had a kind of handle on the basic structure of things. Now we have learned enough to realize that for all intents and purposes we are close to completely ignorant. It's like starting from scratch in an infinitely bigger playing field than we had thought imaginable." Best, Robert Ep. 23301 From: Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] mind, mind objects, intellect and ideas - confused? Hi, Rob - In a message dated 7/6/03 4:35:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > >-------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Okay. There is the experiencing - that's the consciousness, > and there > >is what is experienced - that is the content or object, of > consciousness, and > >there is the entire, joint, cognitive event, for which we have no > good term. > >Perhaps a good term might be 'act of consciousness'. > >-------------------------------------------------- > > I think it's hard to create a distinction between an act of > experience as an aspect of consciousness, and the sense that we have > with a degree of awareness or mindfulness, that the event being > experienced is taking place "within" a more global awareness or > consciousness. This usually opens up a big debate about whether > consciousnes exists independently of an "act of consciousness". You > and I, I think, feel that it does, and that the specific act of > consciousness is like a ripple within a greater continuity or > continuum of consciousness. The Abhidhammic description of > individual conscious cittas and bhavanga cittas seems to be a > slightly different model than this; tying consciousness more > directly with the act it participates in. > ========================== I'm zeroing in on the above portion of your post, because it seems to include the main issues involved. First of all, I don't think that the distinguishing of discernings from "acts of consciousness" (which are the events consisting of discerning and discerned) implies anything about a "global awareness consciousness". A "global awareness consciousness," if there is such a thing, might be nothing more than the potential for the arising of experiences. The term 'global awareness consciousness' is a bit problematical, I think, in that it suggests a "self" to me. In any case, even if there is no such thing at all, there still remains the matter of distinguishing three things: The knowing, the known, and the event consisting of the co-occurrence of these, for they never occur except interdependently. I've been referring to that event as an "act of consciousness". Actually, it may well be nothing but phassa (contact). A seeming problem with that identification is the following: In Abhidhamma, phassa is a cetasika, and thus a paramattha dhamma. But the discernment and the arammana are also paramattha dhammas, and how can two paramattha dhammas be aspects of another? Now, the Buddha quite clearly, in the suttas, describes contact as the coming together of sense door, sense object, and sense consciousness. Does that make phassa a complex, and hence not a paramattha dhamma, but a pa~n~natti? Perhaps not. Perhaps one needs to pay attention to the expression "coming together". Perhaps phassa is not a complex at all, but is the elementary *event* consisting of the co-occurrence of the arammana, the vi~n~nana, and the (activation of the ) dvara, all mutually dependent. In this case, the event of their co-occurrence constitutes a paramattha dhamma that is, itself, interdependent with those other three. Of the four, sense-door activation, discerning, object, and contact, when any of these arise, all arise, and when any of these ceases, all cease. That might be the best understanding of all, in which case my "act of consciousness" is, in fact, just phassa! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23302 From: Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 8:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] THANK YOU LARRY! SADHU, SADHU, SADHU! Hi Christine, Thanks for your thanks. As with all these things we study, it would be good to study again. No matter how much we contemplate and practice we are always just beginners. I know I certainly benefited from this slow and methodical reading. Metta and mudita to you, Larry 23303 From: Gina Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 6:34pm Subject: Re: Can anyone explain Nirvana? Is Karma is Dhamma? Hi, I'm Gina from Thailand. I admitted I lost touch with Buddhism because there isn't buddhism where I live. I just move to DC areas and there are wats here. So I'm here to learn about it. I have my own group and hope to take some information here to share with other. Thank you for your post. I don't find book or information about Vipassana. this is a good group and I can benefit from it. Gina http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medium/ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > --- > Dear Som, > Apologies, I forgot to sign off my last post to you, > My name is Azita, I lived in Thailand for about 2 years many years > ago. I come from Australia. > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. 23304 From: Gina Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 6:39pm Subject: Vipasana vs Spiritualism (Mediumship) I have one question. I have been involved with Spiritualism and am developed medium. I meditate daily (have not done lately). Can one explain the different between Vipasana insight vs Spiritualist? I can see and communicate with spirit. I can give you any psychic messages that is accurate and tell your past,present and future. That is not what I want to do because it does'nt help me get a decent job, so I create my group to teach other how to be become telepathic, clairvoyant, to heal, etc; perhaps, to use mental to access any information even government top secret. I want to pass my spiritual gifted to any Thais who would be interested to learn. I can't take my knowledge with me when I die and I don't have children since I'm single and am 40. Somjai http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medium/ 23305 From: Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 8:34am Subject: wake, sleep, dream Hi all, here's an interesting tidbit from the Vimuttimagga (Path of Freedom) p. 251: Through the six kinds of consciousness one does not sleep, awake or dream. Through opposites one sleeps. Through subtle light one awakes. Through apperception (javana) one dreams. L: Anyone know what "through opposites one sleeps" means? Is subtle light a rupa? Larry 23306 From: suzakico Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 9:54am Subject: Re: my time with A. Sujin. 2. Thank you, Nina for these posts. I am reading with smile and curiocity as a child! Kio 23307 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: gratitude, nature and meditation. Dear Mike, Howard, Ken and all, Mike, I appreciate and thank you for your posts where you explained about joy that is kusala and joy that is akusala, and also the post where you quoted Survey, explaining what is kusala. Any moment of javanacitta as is explained, that is not dana, sila or bhavana, is akusala. I said, I appreciate, anumodana. The word anumodati in Pali is another term for to thank. Anumodana is thankfulness, one can be thankful and appreciate someone else's kusala. Here is no doubt that this gratefulness is kusala. See below for further observations. op 06-07-2003 01:02 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: >>> I see danger in finding delight in conditioned phenomena, and I think > this >>> is consistent with the Dhamma. >> ============================ Howard: Following this dictum, Mike, I'm afraid we're all going to have an >> existence bereft of delight for a long, long time. Mike: Thanks for your comments and good wishes--I hope it's clear now that my > comments were meant to distinguish between akusala happiness (attachment to > pleasant sense- and mind-objects), kusala happiness (such as that arising > with the brahmaviharas you mentioned) and happiness connected with the goal. Nina:We can be very natural, delight in all pleasant things. Like Mike, I am a great lover of nature, of hiking. I love music. Of course so long as we are not anagamis, we have not eradicated attachment to sense pleasures. It is conditioned. Let us remember that it is a conditioned reality. First of all, we have to be very precise on the level of pariyatti, theoretical knowledge. We have to have basic knowledge of kusala citta and akusala citta, and also of the different feelings that can accompany them. Otherwise we will delude ourselves all the time, we shall not reach the goal. It will cause our practice, patipatti, to be wrong. We have to remember that joy, happy feeling, can accompany kusala citta but that it, most of the time, accompanies akusala citta rooted in attachment. We have to know that whatever citta and feeling arises, does so because of conditions. There is no rule what we should do, the question "should or should not" is not realistic. Mike gives us the text: > "...having seen a material shape with the eye, do not be entranced with the > general appearance, do not be entranced with the detail; for if one dwells > with the organ of sight uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, evil, > unskillful states of mind, may flow in... > p.s. The Buddha's words above were addressed to a bhikkhu, for whom > guarding the sense- and mind-doors are much more important than for > laypeople, I think. Still very useful to investigate presently arising (and > very recently arisen) states, I think. Nina: this is meant for everybody. There are different levels of guarding the senses, but the most effective way is satipatthana, developing understanding of whatever reality appears, also joy that is akusala. In his teachings the Buddha explained all the time about satipatthana, it is implied in the whole of the Tipoitaka, no matter what we read. An example: yesterday we were hiking, looking at beautiful cornflowers: on account of what was seen there was attachment. But through the nose an unpleasant odour was experienced and aversion arose. We were also thinking of the dung which was the cause of the stench. Different objects through different doorways, arising because of different conditions. There can also be conditions of thinking of impermanence, but this cannot be forced. Since we are becoming older we know that we may not be able to hike much longer. What we enjoy is very temporary. Such thoughts may arise or may not arise, they depend on conditions entirely. We may feel slightly guilty because of our attachment, but also that is a worthy object of satipatthana. As Ken explained, there is no need to single out specific objects: < Why should we single out pleasant feelings when there are all sorts of sense objects and mental objects coming and going at break-neck speeds? The fact that we single out pleasant feeling, suggests that we don't know the difference between 'dhammas' and 'thinking about dhammas.'... Would it be a good time to reflect on one of the four objects of meditation (the Buddha, metta, death, foulness)?> N: Good to be reminded of the difference between 'dhammas' and thinking about dhammas. As I said above, no rule to reflect on these four objects, but reading about them can condition moments of kusala reflection. Sarah also reminded us that when we see our own akusala and want to change it, it is clinging to self most of the time, or conceit. But we can only know for ourselves. We need such a refined understanding of citta and cetasikas. I wrote the other day (my time with A. Sujin 2) that I was so happy people considered me as one of them: when there is an idea of "them and I" there is conceit: I am equal to them. Or, attachment to happy feeling. There can also be kusala moments of appreciation of people's kindness. Our knowledge must be very detailed from the beginning, from the pariyatti level on. If someone feels he needs to sit in formal mediation: there is no rule he should or should not do this. It happens already because of conditions, accumulated inclinations in the past that condition our inclinations today. But the Buddha taught us to be mindful of whatever appears through one of the six doors, no matter what we are doing. When sitting, there may be some stiffness, and then there can be awareness: hardness appears and some uneasiness about it. A co-meditator may cough or may be shifting his posture, again, aversion may arise. Or one likes silence and clings to this. But even when there is silence, some sounds appear, they can be realized as only rupas. Or one expects some progress, and this is clinging again. Many realities are appearing all the time and they can be objects of satipatthana. We do not have to do anything about them, they appear already. Nina. 23308 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Karma Dhamma?. Hi Som, welcome to this list. op 04-07-2003 22:11 schreef Gina op medium@a...: > Now can one explain if Karma is the same as Dharma? N: As T.G. explained, the word dhamma has different meanings. He also explained about kusala kamma and akusala kamma. Azita quoted from Acharn Sujin's Survey to point out the meaning of dhamma in its widest sense: '. It is difficult to answer your question in a few words. Some basic notions will help: In our life there are three kinds of conditioned dhammas: citta (consciousness) cetasika (mental factors accompanying citta) rupa (matter or physical phenomena). There is one unconditioned dhamma, nibbana. These four dhammas are ultimate realities or paramattha dhamms. If we want to know what kind of reality kamma is, we have to consider in which of these four dhammas it is included. Kamma is actually volition or intention, it is the intention that makes a deed. It is included in cetasika, it is a mental factor arising with citta. This is a short answer, and it takes a lot of study before all is clear. Helpful is: Buddhist Dictionary, by Nyanatiloka, also available in Thai. In the archives (maybe Kom or Christine can help where) is also a list available with basic Pali terms. Chook di, Nina. 23309 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 11:42am Subject: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 4 Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 4 We read in the Commentary about paññå : ³Wisdom opposes them in so far as greed, etc., create blindness, while knowledge restores sight.² Wisdom is opposed to akusala as it dispels the darkness of attachment and so on and restores sight. As soon as we have seen something, attachment is bound to arise. When paññå is lacking, there is no opposition to lobha which is skilful in clinging to all the sense objects. However, when paññå arises, attachment cannot arise at the same time; paññå is opposed to attachment. Only paññå can dispel the darkness of attachment. When paññå arises, it is able to understand the true nature of the reality that appears. Paññå understands kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala. When paññå further develops, it will know the characteristics of realities as they are so that the darkness of ignorance can be overcome. We read about energy and patience: ³Energy opposes lobha by arousing the true way free from both listlessness and restlessness. Patience opposes lobha by accepting the desirable, the undesirable, and emptiness.² Each of the perfections is of great benefit provided we duly reflect on them and gradually accumulate them. If, in circumstances which are a test to our endurance, we reflect on patience, we can accumulate it. There can be patience with regard to disagreeable objects and to desirable objects of which we can realize the emptiness. We read about truthfulness: ³Truthfulness is the opposite of lobha because it proceeds in accordance with fact whether others render help or inflict harm.² Because of truthfulness we can know what is right and what is wrong, no matter in what circumstances we are. We read about determination: ³Determination is the opposite of these three defilements since, after vanquishing the vicissitudes of the world, it remains unshakeable in fulfilling the requisites of enlightenment in the way they have been undertaken.² We should know of ourselves whether we have already firm determination in the development of kusala or not yet. This is necessary so that we become unshakable in accomplishing it. Our determination can easily vacillate, it may not be firm, and our confidence may not be steady. 23310 From: bodhi2500 Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 3:23pm Subject: Vimuttimagga Hi Would the Vimuttimagga be considered an authoritative text within Theravada and DSG? Steve 23311 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 9:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] THANK YOU LARRY! SADHU, SADHU, SADHU! Hi Larry and Christine, Yes, I join Christine in thanking you, anumodana, Nina. op 06-07-2003 10:25 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > May I express my deep gratitude for the way you diligently posted > excerpts and encouraged discussion over almost eighteen months. 23312 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 10:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mind, mind objects, intellect and ideas - confused? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: ...In any case, even if there is no such thing at all, there still > remains the matter of distinguishing three things: The knowing, the known, and the > event consisting of the co-occurrence of these, for they never occur except > interdependently. I've been referring to that event as an "act of consciousness". > Actually, it may well be nothing but phassa (contact). A seeming problem with > that identification is the following: In Abhidhamma, phassa is a cetasika, > and thus a paramattha dhamma. But the discernment and the arammana are also > paramattha dhammas, and how can two paramattha dhammas be aspects of another? Now, > the Buddha quite clearly, in the suttas, describes contact as the coming > together of sense door, sense object, and sense consciousness. Does that make > phassa a complex, and hence not a paramattha dhamma, but a pa~n~natti? Perhaps > not. Perhaps one needs to pay attention to the expression "coming together". > Perhaps phassa is not a complex at all, but is the elementary *event* consisting > of the co-occurrence of the arammana, the vi~n~nana, and the (activation of the > ) dvara, all mutually dependent. In this case, the event of their > co-occurrence constitutes a paramattha dhamma that is, itself, interdependent with those > other three. Of the four, sense-door activation, discerning, object, and > contact, when any of these arise, all arise, and when any of these ceases, all > cease. That might be the best understanding of all, in which case my "act of > consciousness" is, in fact, just phassa! Hi Howard. In the coming together you described above, I would see all the elements that co-occur as part of the act of consciousness, rather than reducing it all to contact. That is fine. When I spoke of a continuum of consciousness, it is that I don't find a time when acts of consciousness actually cease. Do you? Is there a moment when you stop seeing the computer screen and then begin seeing it again, in a series of continuous moments that end and then begin again? I think that such acts of consciousness are certainly interrupted by others, because attention drifts here and there and then back again, but I don't see any regularity or rhythm to this that would break such variations into discrete, equally-spaced or sized units of conscious action. If anyone has evolved to the point where they directly discern the beginning and ending of momentary cittas, I would be excited to hear this described as an actual experience. Meanwhile, experience shows that consciousness continuously processes one thing or another; there is always contact with something, just that the object shifts, and consciousness is thus, to my mind, for all intents and purposes, a continuous stream of acts of awareness. Again, you may say that when the mind daydreams or sleeps or drifts to vague objects of contemplation, that awareness has or conscious thought has ceased and is then later re- activated. It seems more reasonable to me to say that consciousness merely is redirected to another object, but hasn't lost or gained anything. Mindfulness, which involves an actual discernment of the action of consciousness taking place, is another matter, and can indeed be present or absent; but this is only because it has a requirement to be aware in a specific way, which the basic definition of consciousness, as long as one is alive, does not. Best, Robert Ep. 23313 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 10:34pm Subject: Re: Vimuttimagga --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi > Would the Vimuttimagga be considered an authoritative text > within Theravada and DSG? > > Steve Dear steve, I think the Vimuttimagga may have been composed by the Abhayagiri sect - who are sometimes referred to as "keci" (some) in the commentaries. While many sections are close to the orthodox Theravada tradition it wasn't accepted as part of it. RobertK 23314 From: monomuni Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 9:39pm Subject: Vassa: The Retreat of the Rains. Friends: The Vassa which is the 3 months retreat of the rains start next full moon on July 13. Here The Buddha spoke the first cardinal discourse; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-011a.html Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta: Setting in Motion the Wheel of Truth Therefore friends; Intensify your training! Deepen your study! Arouse enthusiam! Stir up energy! Exert effort! for the understanding of the yet not undertstood, for the realization of the yet unrealized states, for the attaining of the yet unattained stages, for the reaching of the yet unreached levels, Do not let Mara the Evil One find you sleeping, since then this end-maker will sweep you away! : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Any loose act, any corrupt practice, a life of dubious holiness - none of these is of much fruit. Random Dhammapada Verse 312 23315 From: monomuni Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Inseparability Friends: INSEPARABILITY: The apparent contrast between: The science of today & The religion of the Buddhas. between: The Nature of Matter & The Knowledge of Dhamma Evaporates completely under ones feet when one fully comprehends the Inseparability of Matter & Mind ... of Name & Form ... of NamaRupa ... : - ] Friendship is truly GREATEST Bhikkhu Samahita SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ He who in this world takes nothing that is not given, be it long or short, small or great, fair or foul, - him I call a Brahmana. Random Dhammapada Verse 409 23316 From: monomuni Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 8:58pm Subject: Nobody is behind this Carpet! Friends: CONSCIOUSNESS: Consciousness is: the agent & receiver the instrument & tool the process & activity of knowing of cognizing of being aware it is not 'I' it is not 'me' it is not 'mine' it is not 'self' it is just this ... naked awareness, process of knowing, recognizing activity, yet nobody is aware yet nobody knows yet nobody recognizes! Knowledge is, but one who knows is not. Awareness is, but one who is aware is not. Recognition is, but one who recognizes is not! Observation is yet there is No Observer ! There is Nobody behind the Camera yet images are created ! Always new, always different ... Not to keep even for a moment ... There is Nobody behind this Carpet! Remarkable yet true Subtle yet freeing! Sabbe Sankhara Anicca All constructions vanish Sabbe Dhamma Anatta No phenomena are self Friendship is truly GREATEST The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Bhikkhu Samahita Cypress Hut, Gangamulla Bambarella, Tawalantenna 20838. Central Province. SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Having tasted the flavour of seclusion and the flavour of appeasement, free from anguish and stain becomes he, imbibing the taste of the joy of the Dhamma. Random Dhammapada Verse 205 23317 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 2:59am Subject: tathagatagarbha Dear Group, What exactly is 'tathagatagarbha'? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23318 From: Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] mind, mind objects, intellect and ideas - confused? Hi, Robert - In a message dated 7/7/03 1:01:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > ...In any case, even if there is no such thing at all, there still > >remains the matter of distinguishing three things: The knowing, > the known, and the > >event consisting of the co-occurrence of these, for they never > occur except > >interdependently. I've been referring to that event as an "act of > consciousness". > >Actually, it may well be nothing but phassa (contact). A seeming > problem with > >that identification is the following: In Abhidhamma, phassa is a > cetasika, > >and thus a paramattha dhamma. But the discernment and the arammana > are also > >paramattha dhammas, and how can two paramattha dhammas be aspects > of another? Now, > >the Buddha quite clearly, in the suttas, describes contact as the > coming > >together of sense door, sense object, and sense consciousness. > Does that make > >phassa a complex, and hence not a paramattha dhamma, but a > pa~n~natti? Perhaps > >not. Perhaps one needs to pay attention to the expression "coming > together". > >Perhaps phassa is not a complex at all, but is the elementary > *event* consisting > >of the co-occurrence of the arammana, the vi~n~nana, and the > (activation of the > >) dvara, all mutually dependent. In this case, the event of their > >co-occurrence constitutes a paramattha dhamma that is, itself, > interdependent with those > >other three. Of the four, sense-door activation, discerning, > object, and > >contact, when any of these arise, all arise, and when any of these > ceases, all > >cease. That might be the best understanding of all, in which case > my "act of > >consciousness" is, in fact, just phassa! > > Hi Howard. > In the coming together you described above, I would see all the > elements that co-occur as part of the act of consciousness, rather > than reducing it all to contact. That is fine. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I'm tending to think that the the correct analysis may be as follows: The "act of consciousness" is a citta, and it is concept-only, the concept, itself, being a mental construct or thought of a complex consisting of vi~n~nana, arammana, and numerous cetasika. The sense-door activation, sense consciousness, and sense object do all co-arise, interdependently, and the *event* of their co-arising is the cetasika, phassa. -------------------------------------------------------------------- When I spoke of a > > continuum of consciousness, it is that I don't find a time when acts > of consciousness actually cease. Do you? > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, I have experienced (what seems to be) the loss of consciousness, or the beginnings of that, with anaesthesia. Also, at a Goenka retreat, during intense meditation on bodily sensations, when sensations were experienced at the level of "energy pulses", these pulses did seem to be separated by gaps, and those gaps might have been absence of awareness, but I cannot be sure of that. This is, of course, a bit paradoxical - how can absence of awareness be noted when there *is* no awareness! ;-)) Probably, there is not the awareness of no-awareness, but only of the rapid fading of awareness (or reduction of its intensity) that begins the cessation, if such cessation actually occurs. ----------------------------------------------------------- Is there a moment when > > you stop seeing the computer screen and then begin seeing it again, > in a series of continuous moments that end and then begin again? > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: There might be. I don't know. I don't consciously register visual experiences so microscopically. ------------------------------------------------------------ I > > think that such acts of consciousness are certainly interrupted by > others, because attention drifts here and there and then back again, > but I don't see any regularity or rhythm to this that would break > such variations into discrete, equally-spaced or sized units of > conscious action. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, to me equal spacing or size doesn't seem to be particularly important. As I understand it, Theravadin Abhidhamma doesn't countenance breaks in awareness, but claims contiguity of cittas, without gaps, with the commentaries explaining apparent gaps as bhavanga cittas. ----------------------------------------------------- If anyone has evolved to the point where they > > directly discern the beginning and ending of momentary cittas, I > would be excited to hear this described as an actual experience. > Meanwhile, experience shows that consciousness continuously > processes one thing or another; there is always contact with > something, just that the object shifts, and consciousness is thus, > to my mind, for all intents and purposes, a continuous stream of > acts of awareness. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly that is the non-meditative, empirical experience of ordinary folks such as we. With intense moment-to-moment concentration during certain meditation, however, there do appear to be "gaps". But these may be moments of relative fading of clarity (to be pessimistic ;-), or they could be very clear bhavanga cittas - or, they could, indeed, be true gaps in consciousness. ------------------------------------------------------ Again, you may say that when the mind daydreams > > or sleeps or drifts to vague objects of contemplation, that > awareness has or conscious thought has ceased and is then later re- > activated. It seems more reasonable to me to say that consciousness > merely is redirected to another object, but hasn't lost or gained > anything. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, the idea of an ongoing stream of awareness without gap, but merely changing its "content" is hard to distinguish from that of an ongoing stream of contiguous cittas, except in the *sense* of the two views, and the kinds of error they are subject to. The first formulation has the flavor of "continuity", and the second has the flavor of "contiguity". Each has its appeal, and each has its defects. The first model involves the "danger" of eternalism-substantialism, and the second model has the "danger" of annihilationism. The second model, however, besides being subject to the error of annihilationism, *also* has the danger of substantialism if the individual cittas are viewed as having "own-being" during the time of their "existence", for then one has the view of entities with core that are cut off, giving a combined substantialist-annihilationist perspective. So, both models have their danger. Of course, the reality is what it is, and surely is inadequately described by either model. I tend to think that the safest course is not to *commit* to either model, but, rather, to just accept the general principles laid down by the Buddha (the four noble truths, the tilakkhana, dependent origination, etc), and to follow his training. -------------------------------------------------------- Mindfulness, which involves an actual discernment of the > > action of consciousness taking place, is another matter, and can > indeed be present or absent; but this is only because it has a > requirement to be aware in a specific way, which the basic > definition of consciousness, as long as one is alive, does not. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23319 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 9:38am Subject: Re: tathagatagarbha Dear Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: Dear Group, What exactly is 'tathagatagarbha'? metta and peace, Christine KKT: Tathagata = lit. "Thus-gone/Thus-come" one of the 10 titles of the Buddha. Therefore, Tathagata or Buddha is the same thing. Garbha = Embryo or Womb. Tathagata-garbha = Embryo of Buddha or germ of the Buddha. Tathagata-garbha is another word of Buddha-nature. This is the ultimate teaching of Mahayana which states that every being possesses the germ of Buddha (ie. the 'potential' to become a Buddha) There are 2 interpretations: __This embryo is only under the form of a 'germ' and needs to be developed to become a fully enlightened Buddha (ie. one needs to practice, cultivate) __This embryo of Buddha is already << a fully enlightened Buddha >> inside oneself. Therefore all one needs is simply to recognize it (ie. no need of cultivation, practice) This is the teaching of sudden enlightenment. Peace, KKT 23320 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipasana vs Spiritualism (Mediumship) Dear Som, op 06-07-2003 03:39 schreef Gina op gina_insight@y...: > I have one question. I have been involved with Spiritualism and am > developed medium. I meditate daily (have not done lately). Can one > explain the different between Vipasana insight vs Spiritualist? I > can see and communicate with spirit. I can give you any psychic > messages that is accurate and tell your past,present and future. Nina: We read in the Suttas about devas and ghosts, and we learn about other planes of existence. Some people can see or hear devas and ghosts. This is not strange, there are conditions for everything that happens. If someone has special powers this is condiitoned by the past, one may have developed a kind of concentration in a past life. Through vipassana one learns not to take special experiences for self and cling to them as mine. When we were on pilgrimage in India several of us heard monks chanting, but there were no monks chanting. I told Acharn Sujin and her answer was: do not cling to this. People may pay undue attention to special experiences or cling to rites and rituals. This distracts from our first and foremost task: know the nama and rupa appearing at the present moment. Know your own citta now, know when there is clinging. The teachings are the greatest marvel, they can help us to cling less to self, to understand our life. We should remember the Sangarava sutta (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes, ch 6, § 60, III) : we read about three marvels: miraculous powers, thought reading and the marvel of teaching. The last one is the greatest marvel : how to apply one's mind, abandon defilements, acquire what is beneficial. There were aeons of past lives and there will be aeons of future lives, and therefore, instead of trying to learn about our past and future, is it not more beneficial to understand this very moment? When you have the gift of healing, you can do this with kindness and compassion, so that others feel better. But the effect is temporal, we still have dukkha so long as we are in the cycle of birth and death. The Buddha is the greatest healer: when we follow his teaching we can be cured of the real dukkha: being born again and again because of our ignorance and defilements. May we all appreciate the greatest marvel and have confidence in the greatest Healer, Nina. 23321 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] my time with A. Sujin 3. Dear Kio and all, Kio asked: In the last post, you said: "I became used to the different types of citta, consciousness." What was the few specific incidents in your early days that you found the glimpse of dhamma? Nina: My time with A. Sujin 3. At breakfast I listened to A. Sujin¹s radio program and heard time and again the terms denoting the different cittas arising in sense-door processes and mind-door processes. Thai and Pali are very close, and in this way I could learn all these terms. But becoming used to these terms does not mean experiencing all the different cittas. A. Sujin explained that intellectual understanding is a foundation for awareness that can arise later on. She stressed foundation knowledge, knowledge of the details of cittas, of their different characteristics, of cetasikas (mental factors), such as feeling, akusala cetasikas, beautiful cetasikas and rupas. Indeed, as we read in the suttas, listening, considering are most important conditions for the arising of satipatthana, sati and panna that directly realize characteristics of nama and rupa. We begin to recognize attachment, lobha, and aversion, dosa, in our lives, and this is useful, but we should not take this for awareness. For many years I thought that thinking was awareness. We may think without words, recognize realities very quickly, but, when we are very sincere, there is still an idea of self who does so. It is not panna of satipatthana. I began to know that laughing is conditioned by lobha, and this made me feel somewhat uneasy when laughing. I had an idea of wanting to suppress laughing. Lobha again. A. Sujin explained that we should behave very naturally, and not force ourselves not to laugh. Just do everything that you are used to doing, but in between right understanding can be developed. ³We have to know our good moments and our worst moments in a day², she said. I read a sutta where the Buddha spoke to the monks about women and compared a woman to a snake. I did not like that. A. Sujin answered that this sutta can remind us of our accumulated defilements. If right understanding is not developed, accumulated defilements can cause the arising of many kinds of aksuala, and then we are like a snake. In other words, we should profit from the message contained in a sutta, learning how dangerous akusala is. Moreover, by this sutta the Buddha warned the monks of the danger of getting involved with women. A. Sujin helped me to see the danger of what is accumulated in past lives. We never know how these accumulations can condition cittas at the present. We may do things we did not believe ourselves capable of. When I listened to her lectures in the temple I became sometimes depressed when I realized how difficult the development of right understanding is. Would I ever be able to reach the goal? But I had no inclinations to look for another way that could hasten the development of right understanding. A. Sujin explained that clinging to progress will not help us at all. When we have more understanding of aeons we will be less inclined to think of progress. Before this life there were aeons of ignorance, and in this life we are fortunate to be able to listen to the teachings and begin to understand the way of development of the eightfold Path. But it has to be a long way before we reach the goal. We can learn to accept that this will take more than one life. Time and again A. Sujin repeated what the Buddha said in the Exhortation to the Patimokkha: Patience is the greatest ascetism. Nina (to be continued). 23322 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vimuttimagga Hi Steve op 07-07-2003 00:23 schreef bodhi2500 op Bodhi2500@a...: > Would the Vimuttimagga be considered an authoritative text > within Theravada and DSG? N: It is not part of the canon. A. Sujin said once to me that many things in this work are similar to the Visuddhimagga. In the Vis. transl. (Nyanamoli) in front, bibliography: Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga, a comparative study , P.V. Bapat, Poona. There is also a transl from the Chinese version. Chinese versions are very old, I have heard. You are also on Pali yahoo list, aren't you? You could ask Dimitri, who studies it. Nina. 23323 From: dwlemen Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 0:08pm Subject: Putting into practice Everyone, I have a question about the Abhidhamma, as discussed here. From what I've read here, there are cittas that arise and fall away. While I can, at an academic/conceptual level "understand" what the theory is, my question is, how are they experienced? With practice, do you actually discern the different elements? Is it possible to seperate "sound" from "barking dog"? It's been my impression that many here are not big on meditation. Is there another way to train the mind to break each moment apart into these elementary cittas? As always, I look forward to any and all insight you good people can throw my way! :-) Peace, Dave 23324 From: yasalalaka Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 2:17pm Subject: Re: Vimuttimagga --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Steve > op 07-07-2003 00:23 schreef bodhi2500 op Bodhi2500@a...: > > Would the Vimuttimagga be considered an authoritative text > > within Theravada and DSG? > N: It is not part of the canon. A. Sujin said once to me that many things > in this work are similar to the Visuddhimagga. > In the Vis. transl. (Nyanamoli) in front, bibliography: Vimuttimagga and > Visuddhimagga, a comparative study , P.V. Bapat, Poona. > There is also a transl from the Chinese version. Chinese versions are very > old, I have heard. > You are also on Pali yahoo list, aren't you? You could ask Dimitri, who > studies it. > Nina. _____________________________________________________ Please permit me to add a word: The Visuddhimagga, is a collectionction of Commentaries, on the Tri -Pitaka. (with special emphasis on Meditation), translated in to Pali by, Venerable Buddhaghosa, a highly learned monk from South India. The Vimuttimagga,was written by an Arahat Upatissa, this covers the same subject, and was written in the 4 th century and existed when Venerable Buddhaghosa compiled the Vusuddhimagga, the Original of the book was lost, but a Chinese translation of it had been found, and the Englishs translation was made from the Chinese text. There are apparently few differences between the two. Visuddhimagga is said to be more comprehensive and scholarly. Venerable Buddhaghosa had utilised the tripitaka for his work., but Vimuttimagga is said to contain little of Abhidhamma. An anecdote about the Visuddhimagga is that when Venerable Buddhaghosa completed his first work, it was hidden by the Devas, and the Venerable Buddhaghosa, wrote it again , and when that was completed it was again hidden by the Devas, then the Venerable wrote it for the third time. The Devas then returned the previous two works. And it is said that the text of the three books were exactly the same, word to word. Visuddhimagga is by far the well known, and a household word among amoung the Buddhists. with metta, Yasa 23325 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vimuttimagga Anumodanaa to you, Yasa. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: yasalalaka To: Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 2:17 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Vimuttimagga > Please permit me to add a word: The Visuddhimagga, is a > collectionction of Commentaries, on the Tri -Pitaka. (with special > emphasis on Meditation), translated in to Pali by, Venerable > Buddhaghosa, a highly learned monk from South India. > > The Vimuttimagga,was written by an Arahat Upatissa, this covers the > same subject, and was written in the 4 th century and existed when > Venerable Buddhaghosa compiled the Vusuddhimagga, the Original of > the book was lost, but a Chinese translation of it had been found, > and the Englishs translation was made from the Chinese text. There > are apparently few differences between the two. Visuddhimagga is > said to be more comprehensive and scholarly. Venerable > Buddhaghosa had utilised the tripitaka for his work., but > Vimuttimagga is said to contain little of Abhidhamma. > > An anecdote about the Visuddhimagga is that when Venerable > Buddhaghosa completed his first work, it was hidden by the Devas, > and the Venerable Buddhaghosa, wrote it again , and when that was > completed it was again hidden by the Devas, then the Venerable wrote > it for the third time. The Devas then returned the previous two > works. And it is said that the text of the three books were > exactly the same, word to word. > > Visuddhimagga is by far the well known, and a household word among > amoung the Buddhists. > with metta, > Yasa 23326 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 5:19pm Subject: Re: Putting into practice Hello Dave, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" wrote: > Everyone, > > I have a question about the Abhidhamma, as discussed here. From what > I've read here, there are cittas that arise and fall away. While I > can, at an academic/conceptual level "understand" what the theory is, > my question is, how are they experienced? > Cittas are the experience. For example, what we take for my experience, is in reality, just cittas arising and falling away. Cittas can only really be known by other cittas. There is nothing, no thing, other than citta that experiences. This, I consider, a very simplyfied answer, bec. cittas do not arise alone, they are accompanied by cetasikas, however I will not go further into this as this was not your question. Personally, I think some knowledge of the Abhidhamma is essential for understanding the Buddha's Dhamma. > With practice, do you actually discern the different elements? Is it > possible to seperate "sound" from "barking dog"? > With study, one can know the different elements. You ask about 'sound' and 'barking dog'. Good question. 'Sound' is the reality - rupa - which is experienced by the citta which arises at the ear base. 'barking dog' is a concept, it can only be a object of thinking. > It's been my impression that many here are not big on meditation. Is > there another way to train the mind to break each moment apart into > these elementary cittas? > A big question! and one I don't feel I can answer fully at this time. Briefly tho, there is the development of insight which is different to formal meditation. Insight is the development of wisdom which can know these realities for what they are, impermanent, not self and unsatisfactory. Again, I'm simplifying, but in the beginning, one needs to have theoretical knowledge of what realities are and are not, before one can 'have' a practice. You have started already by asking questions. keep it up, Dave, your questions help us all or more personally, helps me. > As always, I look forward to any and all insight you good people can > throw my way! :-) > > Peace, > > > Dave patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 23327 From: Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 2:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice Hi, Azita (and Dave) - There are a couple points you raise in the following that I would like to question a bit. In a message dated 7/7/03 8:20:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gazita2002@y... writes: > > Hello Dave, > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" wrote: > >Everyone, > > > >I have a question about the Abhidhamma, as discussed here. From > what > >I've read here, there are cittas that arise and fall away. While I > >can, at an academic/conceptual level "understand" what the theory > is, > >my question is, how are they experienced? > > > Cittas are the experience. For example, what we take for my > experience, is in reality, just cittas arising and falling away. > Cittas can only really be known by other cittas. > There is nothing, no thing, other than citta that experiences. > This, I consider, a very simplyfied answer, bec. cittas do not > arise alone, they are accompanied by cetasikas, however I will not go > further into this as this was not your question. > Personally, I think some knowledge of the Abhidhamma is essential > for understanding the Buddha's Dhamma. > > > >With practice, do you actually discern the different elements? Is > it > >possible to seperate "sound" from "barking dog"? > > > > With study, one can know the different elements. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: With study one can know *about* different elements (or what has been *said* about them), but direct experience is required to know them. ------------------------------------------------------- > You ask about 'sound' and 'barking dog'. Good question. > 'Sound' is the reality - rupa - which is experienced by the citta > which arises at the ear base. > 'barking dog' is a concept, it can only be a object of thinking. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is true. But this can be misunderstood. Does there not exist a namarupic stream separate from the "human" one that "hears" the barking sound, and which corresponds to what we think of as "the dog"? That other namarupic stream, I agree, isn't a self-existing "thing" any more than yours or mine is; it is an ongoing sequence of interdependent mindstates involving acts of knowing, objects known, and accompanying functions that are actually occuring phenomena and that are interrelated in many ways. The point is: Sure, there is just sound occurring in our namarupic stream, and we think of it as "dog barking". But the thought "I hear a dog barking" is not fully off base! The thought "I hear a dog barking" is a high-level, very complex abbreviation of the fact that a multitude of actual relations hold within another namarupic stream, and that there is an interaction between the "human" stream and the "dog" stream. Nowm none of what I'm trying to say is easy to say, but I think there is considerable validity to it. The bottom line is that our concept of a dog barking, in its own abbreviational way, embodies and reveals some very real and complex information. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > It's been my impression that many here are not big on meditation. Is > >there another way to train the mind to break each moment apart into > >these elementary cittas? > > > > A big question! and one I don't feel I can answer fully at this > time. Briefly tho, there is the development of insight which is > different to formal meditation. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: It can certainly *include* certain formal meditation practices. It does not exclude, for example, the formal meditation practices taught by such as Mahasi Sayadaw, Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, and Mr. Goenka, to name just a few. The Buddha taught ongoing mindfulness practice, to be sure, this constituting a good part of the Satipatthana Sutta, but he also taught a more formal practice. The Satipatthana Sutta begins with formal sitting meditation on the breath, and the Anapanasati Sutta, on mindfulness of breathing, is given as a way of implementing the four foundations of mindfulness presented in the Satipatthana Sutta. -------------------------------------------------- Insight is the development of wisdom > > which can know these realities for what they are, impermanent, not > self and unsatisfactory. > Again, I'm simplifying, but in the beginning, one needs to have > theoretical knowledge of what realities are and are not, before one > can 'have' a practice. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: True. But how *much* theoretical knowledge is required before one can begin? The Buddha again and again reminded his followers that there are roots of trees, and they should go and meditate. Few of his followers were scholars. Almost none knew Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------- > You have started already by asking questions. keep it up, Dave, > your questions help us all or more personally, helps me. > > >As always, I look forward to any and all insight you good people > can > >throw my way! :-) > > > >Peace, > > > > > >Dave > > patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23328 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 9:34pm Subject: Re: Putting into practice Dave, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" wrote: > Everyone, > > I have a question about the Abhidhamma, as discussed here. From what > I've read here, there are cittas that arise and fall away. While I > can, at an academic/conceptual level "understand" what the theory is, > my question is, how are they experienced? > ------------- Cittas, and other dhammas, are experienced all the time. The trouble is, the cittas that experience them, do not have right understanding. In the absence of right understanding, dhammas are automatically incorporated into our illusory, conceptual, worlds (eg., "this is MY consciousness"). --------------- > With practice, do you actually discern the different elements? Is it > possible to seperate "sound" from "barking dog"? > --------------- Yes, from what you have read, you already know that audible object is different from "barking dog." So, to that extent, you have accumulated some right understanding. Occasionally, accumulated right understanding will condition kusala cittas -- moments of alobha and adosa. It may even condition direct right understanding (panna). In the early stages, panna will directly know that audible object is rupa (as distinct from nama). This can happen right now, or at any other time -- there is no control over conditions. ------------------- > It's been my impression that many here are not big on meditation. Is > there another way to train the mind to break each moment apart into > these elementary cittas? > --------------------- Yes, by hearing, reflecting on, and discussing the Dhamma with good friends, we learn to apply our accumulated understanding to the present moment. The Pali Canon and its commentaries contain voluminous information on formal meditation in relation to the development of jhana. Jhana is a subject quite distinct from vipassana. There is no mention of vipassana meditation in the ancient literature. ----------------- > As always, I look forward to any and all insight you good people can > throw my way! :-) > ----------------- Thanks for asking the questions; I look forward to replies from the addressee --- ie., Everyone. :-) Kind regards, Ken 23329 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] mind, mind objects, intellect and ideas - confused? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > Hi Howard. > > In the coming together you described above, I would see all the > > elements that co-occur as part of the act of consciousness, rather > > than reducing it all to contact. That is fine. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, I'm tending to think that the the correct analysis may be as > follows: The "act of consciousness" is a citta, and it is concept- only, the > concept, itself, being a mental construct or thought of a complex consisting of > vi~n~nana, arammana, and numerous cetasika. The sense-door activation, sense > consciousness, and sense object do all co-arise, interdependently, and the *event* > of their co-arising is the cetasika, phassa. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Yikes, Howard. I may be getting a little confused, if I wasn't already. I thought that the original object of our discussion was a moment of perception of an object, and thus the act of consciousness would be one of perception, rather than a perceptual moment. Of course, I may not understand correctly what is meant by "contact"; but I am seeing it as consciousness touching the object through the opening of the sense-door, thus "grasping" the object. Is there any conceptualization in that moment of immediate perception? If there is, it is not a rupa, and would seem to take the definition of a rupa out of the picture altogether. Am I confused in thinking this? The rest of what you say about the two views of continuity and contiguity, and their potential traps, does make sense to me, and I like your solution of adhering to basic principles and continuing observation with an open view. I don't deny that there may be phases or breaks between specific acts of consciousness, and that these may be perceived in deeper levels of observation or meditation. I just tend to question whether these are in discrete, pre-ordained units or measures. I think what you said about this, that it is not particularly important how these are technically described, actually gets rid of a lot of problems which are not verifiable in any case, and will neither hinder nor accelerate real progress towards understanding. Thanks for that. Best, Robert Ep. =============================] 23330 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 4:37am Subject: The Buddha On Sleeping And Dreaming Dear Dhamma friends How are you? The Buddha indicated the existence of a link between sati (recollection / mindfulness) and sleeping or dreaming in the Discourse on the mindlessness. For the convenience of Pali readers, I also posted the Pali text in addition to my translation. 10. MU.T.THASSATI SUTTAM 210. "Pañcime, bhikkhave, aadiinavaa mu.t.thassatissa asampajaanassa niddam okkamayato. Katame pañca? Dukkham supati, dukkham pa.tibujjhati, paapakam supinam passati, devataa na rakkhanti, asuci muccati. Ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca aadiinavaa mu.t.thassatissa asampajaanassa niddam okkamayato. "Pañcime, bhikkhave, aanisamsaa upa.t.thitassatissa sampa jaanassa niddam okkamayato. Katame pañca? Sukham supati, sukham pa.tibujjhati, na paapakam supinam passati, devataa rakkhanti, asuci na muccati. Ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca aanisamsaa upa.t.thitassatissa sampajaanassa niddam okkamayato"ti. DISCOURSE ON THE MINDLESSNESS 210. Monks, there are these five disadvantages of the mindless, imprudent person falling to sleep. What are the five? He sleeps in misery, wakes up in misery, sees the bad dream, has no gods to protect him, and emit semen. Monks, these indeed are the five disadvantages of the mindless, imprudent person falling to sleep. Monks, there are these five advantages of the mindful, prudent person falling to sleep. What are the five? He sleeps in comfort, wakes up in comfort, does not see the bad dream, has gods to protect him, and does not emit semen. Monks, these indeed are the five advantages of the mindful, prudent person falling to sleep. Section 210, Mu.t.thassatisuttam, Pañcakanipaata Pali, Anguttaranikaayo. NOTE Asuci - this term may mean waste matter as well as semen. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org 23331 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 6:05am Subject: Re: Putting into practice: To Howard Dear Howard, Dave, Azita and all How are you? Howard wrote: "Few of his (the Buddha's) followers were scholars." I agree with Howard. Howard also wrote: "Almost none knew Abhidhamma." We need to stay awhile on this. Everything the Buddha taught revolves around abhidhamma in the sense of ultimate realities, which are matter, mind, mental associates, and nibbana. The teachings about those four ultimates can be found in various narrative forms in Suttas, Vinayas, and Abidhamma Pi.taka. The four ultimate realities are discussed bits by bits by using designations like Bhikkhu, King, Brahmin, and personal pronouns like I, you, they, in the situational manner in Suttas and Vinayas.. The only thing that, in general, distinguishes Abhidhamma Pi.taka from the other two Pi.takas is that the former describes the ultimate realities without referring to designations and personal pronouns. Therefore, Howard's statement "Almost none knew Abhidhamma (in the Buddha's time)." can be true only if it meant Abhidhamma Pi.taka because this Pi.taka was specialized by Saraiputta and his five hundred Bhikkhu followers. But, all other followers of the Buddha, be they ascetics or laypersons, have been constantly exposed to bits and pieces of abhidhamma as the four ultimate realities in various permutations through the Suttas and Vinaya teachings. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Howard: True. But how *much* theoretical knowledge is required before one can begin? The Buddha again and again reminded his followers that there are roots of trees, and they should go and meditate. Few of his followers were scholars. Almost none knew Abhidhamma. > Hi, Azita (and Dave) - > > There are a couple points you raise in the following that I would like > to question a bit. With metta, > Howard 23332 From: Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] mind, mind objects, intellect and ideas - confused? Hi, Rob - In a message dated 7/8/03 3:38:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > >>Hi Howard. > >>In the coming together you described above, I would see all the > >>elements that co-occur as part of the act of consciousness, > rather > >>than reducing it all to contact. That is fine. > >> > >----------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Well, I'm tending to think that the the correct analysis > may be as > >follows: The "act of consciousness" is a citta, and it is concept- > only, the > >concept, itself, being a mental construct or thought of a complex > consisting of > >vi~n~nana, arammana, and numerous cetasika. The sense-door > activation, sense > >consciousness, and sense object do all co-arise, interdependently, > and the *event* > >of their co-arising is the cetasika, phassa. > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yikes, Howard. I may be getting a little confused, if I wasn't > already. I thought that the original object of our discussion was a > moment of perception of an object, and thus the act of consciousness > would be one of perception, rather than a perceptual moment. Of > course, I may not understand correctly what is meant by "contact"; > but I am seeing it as consciousness touching the object through the > opening of the sense-door, thus "grasping" the object. Is there any > conceptualization in that moment of immediate perception? If there > is, it is not a rupa, and would seem to take the definition of a > rupa out of the picture altogether. Am I confused in thinking > this? > ============================ I think that the conversation is probably getting overly complex (and perhaps of little benefit ;-), and also that we may be talking apples and oranges. But to pursue it a drop more, perhaps to clarify a little: On the occasion that discerning of an object occurs, there arise the knowing (vi~n~nana), the known (arammana - could be nama or rupa), and other mental functions pertaining to the arammana (cetasikas); no one of these ever arises without the others arising - they are interdependent and co-occuring, but different, phenomena. One of the cetasikas, contact (phassa), is the interdependent, joint occurrence of sense-door activation, sense consciousness, and sense object. It is not the collection consisting of the three, but the *event* of their joint activation. As the Buddha said in the suttas, *the coming together* [my emphasis] of the three is contact. [An aside: That contact is classified by Abhidhamma always as nama, even though two of the three dhammas that come together may be rupas!] The *collection* of those three, however, is not a directly experienced phenomenon/actuality/paramattha dhamma; it is concept-only (though well-grounded concept). The paramattha dhammas that are known, in this context, are the knowing (vi~n~nana), the known (arammana), the associated functions (cetasika), and their coming together (phassa). Now, what we call an "act of consciousness" or a "mindstate" could be any several different things. Among these are certain *collections* of things that are only pa~n~natti. One candidate is the collection consisting of 1) knowing of an object, 2) the object known, and 3) the concomitant functions. Another is the collection consisting of 1) sense-door activation, 2) knowing of an object through that sense-door, and 3) the object known (i.e., the *collection* of the three things whose co-arising - an event, not a collection - is the cetasika of contact). I hope this clarifies what I'm saying. If not, well, so what? We don't need to be particularly certain about any of this business. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23333 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 7:12am Subject: Re: Putting into practice: To Howard Hi Suan, What is the Buddha's teaching? It is: The non-doing of any evil, the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind: this is the teaching of the Awakened. It is the four noble truths: dukkha, the origination of dukkha, the cessation of dukkha, the way leading to the cessation of dukkha. When you said that everything the Buddha taught revolves around abhidhamma in the sense of ultimate realities, which are matter, mind, mental associates, and nibbana, do you mean that the Buddha's teaching is about the non-doing of any evil,the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind? Do you mean that it is about the four noble truths? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Howard, Dave, Azita and all > > How are you? > > Howard wrote: > > "Few of his (the Buddha's) followers were scholars." > > I agree with Howard. > > Howard also wrote: > > "Almost none knew Abhidhamma." > > We need to stay awhile on this. > > Everything the Buddha taught revolves around abhidhamma in the sense > of ultimate realities, which are matter, mind, mental associates, and > nibbana. > > The teachings about those four ultimates can be found in various > narrative forms in Suttas, Vinayas, and Abidhamma Pi.taka. > > The four ultimate realities are discussed bits by bits by using > designations like Bhikkhu, King, Brahmin, and personal pronouns like > I, you, they, in the situational manner in Suttas and Vinayas.. > > The only thing that, in general, distinguishes Abhidhamma Pi.taka > from the other two Pi.takas is that the former describes the ultimate > realities without referring to designations and personal pronouns. > > Therefore, Howard's statement "Almost none knew Abhidhamma (in the > Buddha's time)." can be true only if it meant Abhidhamma Pi.taka > because this Pi.taka was specialized by Saraiputta and his five > hundred Bhikkhu followers. > > But, all other followers of the Buddha, be they ascetics or > laypersons, have been constantly exposed to bits and pieces of > abhidhamma as the four ultimate realities in various permutations > through the Suttas and Vinaya teachings. > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw 23334 From: Gina Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 9:04am Subject: Need Vispasana Insight Meditation Information Hi, Can anyone recommend link to vispasana meditation to develop insight? I want to compare to Spiriutalist meditation for mediumship. Thank Gina http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medium 23335 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 9:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] THANK YOU LARRY! SADHU, SADHU, SADHU! Larry I'd like to add my thanks to those already expressed by Christine and Nina. I have very much appreciated the installments of 'Way', your questions, and the discussions that have been generated (many thanks to Nina, too, for all her comments). Looking forward to the next venture (any thoughts or suggestions as yet?) Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry and Christine, > Yes, I join Christine in thanking you, > anumodana, > Nina. 23336 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 10:02am Subject: Perfections Ch 11, Equanimity, no 5 Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 5 We read about mettå: ŒLoving-kindness is the opposite of greed, hatred, and delusion, through its seclusion from the hindrances.² The hindrances (nívarana) are: sensuous desire (kåmacchanda), ill-will (vyåpåda), sloth and torpor (thína-middha), restlessness and worry (uddhacca-kukkucca) and doubt (vicikicchå). It is said that loving-kindness is the opposite of lobha because it is free from the hindrances. Only paññå can know whether there are hindrances or not. If there is no paññå one may erroneously believe that there is mettå. In reality there may be lobha, which is the hindrance of sensuous desire. Paññå is essential, and it is also the factor which causes all kusala to further develop. We read about equanimity: ³And equanimity is their opposite by dispelling attraction and repulsion towards desirable and undesirable objects, respectively, and by proceeding evenly under varying circumstances.² We should investigate the characteristics of all ten perfections and see their benefit : they are opposed to akusala dhammas. Realities are non-self, they are beyond control. Cittas arise and fall away all the time in succession, and this causes people¹s lives to be different: they have accumulated different kammas which produce different results and also different inclinations which condition their varied ways of thinking. We read in the Commentary to the ³Kindred Sayings² (II, Ch XII, 6, Tree Suttas, § 60, The base, Nidåna Sutta) that the Dhamma taught by the Buddha for the benefit of all beings can be compared to a thousand goods which are laid down on each door-step for the benefit of the family. Some people may open the door and receive all those goods that are piled up before their door-step whereas others do not even open their door. Ignorance is the condition for not seeing the benefit of the Dhamma, whereas paññå is the condition for realizing its benefit. Each moment of listening to the Dhamma is beneficial. There may not always be an opportunity to apply the Dhamma, but when we have listened to it, there are conditions for kusala dhammas to develop and akusala dhammas to gradually decrease. We should have appreciation for someone who explains the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha. As we have seen, the Buddha¹s teaching can be compared to the laying down of a thousand goods before each house-door. We read in another section of the same Commentary that people are confused and disturbed because of not understanding cause and result which take their course at each moment. This is compared to a cotton thread that is entangled, that has become a knot or a ball which one cannot entangle by oneself. The Commentary states: ³Only two kinds of Bodhisattas can entangle the knot, namely, the Sammasambuddha and the Solitary Buddha (Pacceka Buddha [1]) who have accumulated the perfections so as to realize the four noble Truths by themselves.² Footnote: 1. A Pacceka Buddha, a Solitary Buddha, has realized the Truth without having heard it from someone else, but he cannot proclaim the Dhamma to the world. The Sammasambuddha has realized the Truth without having heard it from someone else, and he can proclaim the Dhamma to the world. 23337 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting into practice Dear Dave, op 07-07-2003 21:08 schreef dwlemen op dwlemen@y...: > > I have a question about the Abhidhamma, as discussed here. From what > I've read here, there are cittas that arise and fall away. While I > can, at an academic/conceptual level "understand" what the theory is, > my question is, how are they experienced? Nina:Only panna can realize the true nature of nama and rupa, and later on their arising and falling away. How does panna arise: because of the appropriate conditions: studying, listening, pondering over what you heard, considering nama and rupa in daily life. The goal is: less clinging to an idea of self. This means, the development which is right should lead to less clinging to self, and this from the beginning. Each person can only verify for himself whether he is on the right track leading to this goal. The Abhidhamma helps us to see that at each moment there is momentary death. Hearing arises, but it falls away, it dies. Thinking arises, but it falls away. Each citta experiences only one object. Hearing experiences sound, thinking experiences a story or concept of a dog. Seeing experiences visible object. Nobody can direct the different cittas which each experience only one object. They all proceed according to conditions. When we notice that a dog is barking there is already thinking of a story, not hearing. Hearing only hears sound, nothing else, it does not think. The Abhidhamma helps us to understand that there are different processes of cittas, that a sense-door process is not the same as a mind-door process. This is an approach different from science which has another field and another objective. But it will take a long time of considering and being aware before we really know: it is only seeing that sees, it is hearing that hears, it is thinking that thinks, no self. D: With practice, do you actually discern the different elements? Is it > possible to seperate "sound" from "barking dog"? > It's been my impression that many here are not big on meditation. N: It depends on what you mean by meditation. Is vipassana developed in daily life not mental development, bhavana? Both samatha and vipassana are bhavana. Not everyone has skill to attain jhana, but there are also four meditation subjects for every occasion, for daily life, as you may have read in former posts: recollection of the Triple Gem, metta, recollection of death and the foulness of the body. Samatha is a way of kusala. But right understanding is needed for both samatha and vipassana. Mindfulness of breathing is a most difficult subject of meditation, it is very subtle. Before one realizes it there is already clinging to breath, clinging to progress. I have not read anywhere in the scriptures that the Buddha said that everybody should have mindfulness of breathing first. See in the archives: anapanasati. I made a study of it, also of the Co to the anapanasati sutta. Jon and Rob Ep had a long discussion about this. To whom did the Buddha address this sutta? To monks who were ripe for enlightenment, even arahatship. Some monks had accumulated skill for jhana and they could attain jhana with this subject. But, after emerging from jhana, they had to be mindful of nama and rupa, also the cetasikas which are the jhanafactors. In their case jhana was the proximate cause of insight. This is all very carefully explained in the commentary. Also in the Visuddhimagga. In the end nama and rupa have to be realized as non-self, no matter one develops first samatha to the degree of jhana or not. D: Is there another way to train the mind to break each moment apart into > these elementary cittas? N: If we try to separate different elements, we do not let panna work its way. We try to interfere, there is an idea of self who tries to do this. It will not be helpful to try to break each moment apart, and it is impossible. Panna and sati arise because of conditions and when the conditions are right, panna can develop. Patience is needed. I will continue with this subject in my series. When delving into my memories I realize how long it took me before I gained a little more understanding. I have to stress the word little. Nina. 23338 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice: To Howard Hi Suan, ----- Original Message ----- From: abhidhammika To: Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 6:05 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice: To Howard > Everything the Buddha taught revolves around abhidhamma in the sense > of ultimate realities, which are matter, mind, mental associates, and > nibbana. > > The teachings about those four ultimates can be found in various > narrative forms in Suttas, Vinayas, and Abidhamma Pi.taka. > > The four ultimate realities are discussed bits by bits by using > designations like Bhikkhu, King, Brahmin, and personal pronouns like > I, you, they, in the situational manner in Suttas and Vinayas.. > > The only thing that, in general, distinguishes Abhidhamma Pi.taka > from the other two Pi.takas is that the former describes the ultimate > realities without referring to designations and personal pronouns. > > Therefore, Howard's statement "Almost none knew Abhidhamma (in the > Buddha's time)." can be true only if it meant Abhidhamma Pi.taka > because this Pi.taka was specialized by Saraiputta and his five > hundred Bhikkhu followers. > > But, all other followers of the Buddha, be they ascetics or > laypersons, have been constantly exposed to bits and pieces of > abhidhamma as the four ultimate realities in various permutations > through the Suttas and Vinaya teachings. This is how I see it too. I would add that the four noble truths are abhidhamma (paramatthadesanaa) (as well as sammutidesanaa) and that paticcasamuppaada is abhidhamma (paramatthadesanaa). Profound insight is, I believe, insight into paramatthadhammas, not into sammutidhammas which are concepts. Profound insight is not, I believe, obtained simply by sitting under a tree (though this can be a very good practice, in my opinion, for strengthening concentration and tranquility, and for a pleasant abiding here and now). All ariyan disciples of Buddhadhamma since the Buddha's enlightenment have attained ariyan states only after hearing and penetrating the Dhamma well-explained, with or without seated meditation. Your point that abhidhamma is not synonymous with the abhidhamma pi.taka is well taken in my opinion, thanks. mike 23339 From: Gina Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 0:30pm Subject: Can someone explain Vispasana Insight Meditation here the info There are two main branches in Buddhist meditation: samatha (calmness, concentration) and vipassana (insight), which stresses mindfulness. This doesn't mean that the two are entirely separate, since you cannot be mindful unless you have at least some level of concentration. Mantra meditation, in which you repeat a few words over and over, is also widely practiced. Followers of this technique may chant "Buddh" as they inhale, and "dho" as they exhale. The words may vary, but the purpose of chanting is really to get the mind focused. Yet another widely taught technique is kasinas, where meditators concentrate on an object outside themselves, such as the flame of a candle, or a crystal ball. Sati, or mindfulness, is key to vipassana meditation. You train yourself to be aware of the body's action, the rise and fall of your chest as you inhale and exhale, the movement of your feet and legs as you walk, as well as your feelings, your thought, and finally, the state of mind you are in. Walking, sitting and lying meditation are but a few of vipassana techniques. When the mind is untrained, concentration can be shattered by the slightest stimuli—noise, smell, heat, hunger, pain, etc. The key is to become aware of what happens, but not dwell on it. Still, a novice can only ward off so much distraction, and that's one reason why vipassana retreats are usually held in peaceful and isolated settings. 23340 From: Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 9:57pm Subject: what next Hi Jon, You asked what I would like to post as a study thread. I was thinking of the wisdom section of the Visuddhimagga. We obviously can't post the whole thing so interested people will have to follow along with their own copy and I will post a paragraph or two from time to time. I'm starting out very slowly so if anyone wants to pick up the pace and jump ahead with a posting of their own that's fine with me. I don't think there is a problem with jumping back and forth between earlier and later passages. I'm taking a little time off now, reflecting and clearing my head with a rather large dose of Harry Potter but will resume soon. Larry 23341 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 2:53am Subject: Interview with the Venerable Dhammanada Bhikkuni Hello All, Azita - Got your message. :-) For anyone interested in hearing a recorded interview by Australian Radio National with the Venerable Dhammanada Bhikkhuni "Ordination of Buddhist Women" - the audio can be heard, and the transcript can be read, at: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/ The Venerable Dhammanada Bhikkuni is a former university professor ordained as a Buddhist nun in Sri Lanka two years ago. She now heads a monastery and temple at Nakhon Pathom, near Bangkok. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23342 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 3:45am Subject: Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hello KenH, Could you say a little more on this please KenH? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" < > Yes, by hearing, reflecting on, and discussing the Dhamma > with good friends, we learn to apply our accumulated > understanding to the present moment. > > The Pali Canon and its commentaries contain voluminous > information on formal meditation in relation to the > development of jhana. Jhana is a subject quite distinct > from vipassana. There is no mention of vipassana > meditation in the ancient literature. > > ----------------- As an example, what about Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 "Yuganaddha Sutta" ''In Tandem" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html Isn't 'Insight' a translation of vipassana? Nyanatiloka (p.254) states that Vipassana: is frequently found in the older sutta texts (e.g. A.II.32; S.XLV.159), also together with samatha. The 9 and 18 insight-knowledges (vipassana-nana and the maha-vipassana), however, occur in the Sutta Pitaka only in the Pts., Nanakatha, where they are enumerated and explained, though without any group name being attached to them. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23343 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 3:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: gratitude, nature and meditation. Dear Nina, > As I said above, no rule to reflect on these four > objects, but reading about them can condition moments > of kusala reflection. It was reassuring to read recently, that you too, took a long time to understand the difference between dhammas and thinking. When I wrote, "Would this be a good time to reflect on one of the four objects of meditation," I thought I was on safe ground, but now, I see I was making the same old mistake. Reflecting on some part of the Dhamma by way of study, does not involve the idea of doing something in order to achieve a result. However, the type of reflection I had in mind, was not so innocuous. I was confusing study with trying to put study into practice -- as if it gave me control over reality. Thanks for putting me straight -- yet again :-) Kind regards, Ken --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Mike, Howard, Ken and all, > Mike, I appreciate and thank you for your posts where you explained about 23344 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 4:30am Subject: Re: Putting into practice/KenH Dear Christine, You give me too much credit. I wasn't even aware the use of the word 'vipassana' was an issue. But thanks for the information, anyway :-) My comment, "There is no mention of vipassana meditation in the ancient literature," was aimed purely at the purported, *intentional practice* of vipassana -- as if there could be control over such things. Jon has written about the use of "meditation" in Pali translations eg., message 14276 (in the Useful Posts file). As a university Pali student who has just been awarded a 6 (Distinction), (congratulations, by the way), you might care to elaborate for us :-) Kind regards, Ken 23345 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 5:43am Subject: Self Ownership Hello All, I just thought I might share some of my current thinking, since I haven't posted in a while. Florida Scott-Maxwell wrote in her book `The Measure of My Days', "You need only claim the events of your life to make yourself yours. When you truly possess all you have been and done...you are fierce with reality." This observation reminded me of the moments prior to the Buddha's enlightenment. Prior to the Buddha's enlightenment he also claimed all he had been and all he had done, not just in one lifetime but in all of his multitude of lifetimes. Perhaps the key to realizing anatta is to take ownership for all of your life's events, in this life and prior lives, rather than negating all aspects of the self on principle? Metta, James 23346 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 6:36am Subject: Re: Putting into practice: To Howard, Victor, and Mike Dear Victor, Mike, Howard, and all How are you? Victor asked: "When you said that everything the Buddha taught revolves around abhidhamma in the sense of ultimate realities, which are matter, mind, mental associates, and nibbana, do you mean that the Buddha's teaching is about the non-doing of any evil,the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind? Do you mean that it is about the four noble truths?" Yes, I do mean that, Victor. And it is about the four noble truths. Let me break down your quotes item by item and show them to be abhidhammas in different wordings - in different narrative forms as I said in my original post. 1. the non-doing of any evil. When we analyse any evil, they are one or another of unhealthy path of actions (akusala kammapatha). Once we get a unhealthy action, we can infer unhealthy activation or intention (cetanaa). Now cetanaaa is a mental associate (cetasika), so it belongs to one of the four ultimate ralities. So it is an instance of abhidhamma. Moreover, once we get an unhealthy cetanaa, we can easily get an unhealthy consciousness (akusala cittam) that contains it or arises together with it. Now the unhealthy consciousness also belongs to the one of the four ultimate realities. So it is also another instance of abhidhamma. 2. the performance of what's skillful. Performance of what is skillful is another way of saying "doing a healthy action" which is one of the healthy path of actions (kusala kammapatha). Thus, we get a healthy cetanaa and a healthy mind, both of which are abhidhammas. 3. cleansing of one's mind Mind is one of the four ultimates, so it is an abhidhamma. 4. the four noble truths. The Noble Truth of Dukkha contains the five aggregates for obsession (pañcupaadaanakkhandhaa). These five aggregate contains the three ultimate realities in terms of matter, mind and mental associates. The Noble Truth Of Samudaya is attachment, which is to do with greed (lobha). As such, it is a mental associate (cetasika). The Noble Truth Of Nirodha is nibbaana, so it is an ultimate reality. The Noble Truth Of Magga is an eightfold mental associates (cetasikas). Therfore, the four noble truths are abhidhammas. Victor, please als read Mike's excellent reply to my original post. Hope my answers satisfy your questions. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: Hi Suan, What is the Buddha's teaching? It is: The non-doing of any evil, the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind: this is the teaching of the Awakened. It is the four noble truths: dukkha, the origination of dukkha, the cessation of dukkha, the way leading to the cessation of dukkha. When you said that everything the Buddha taught revolves around abhidhamma in the sense of ultimate realities, which are matter, mind, mental associates, and nibbana, do you mean that the Buddha's teaching is about the non-doing of any evil,the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind? Do you mean that it is about the four noble truths? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > 23347 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice: To Howard, Victor, and Mike Dear Suan, Saadhu, saadhu, saadhu. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: abhidhammika To: Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 6:36 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice: To Howard, Victor, and Mike Dear Victor, Mike, Howard, and all How are you? Victor asked: "When you said that everything the Buddha taught revolves around abhidhamma in the sense of ultimate realities, which are matter, mind, mental associates, and nibbana, do you mean that the Buddha's teaching is about the non-doing of any evil,the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind? Do you mean that it is about the four noble truths?" Yes, I do mean that, Victor. And it is about the four noble truths. Let me break down your quotes item by item and show them to be abhidhammas in different wordings - in different narrative forms as I said in my original post. 1. the non-doing of any evil. When we analyse any evil, they are one or another of unhealthy path of actions (akusala kammapatha). Once we get a unhealthy action, we can infer unhealthy activation or intention (cetanaa). Now cetanaaa is a mental associate (cetasika), so it belongs to one of the four ultimate ralities. So it is an instance of abhidhamma. Moreover, once we get an unhealthy cetanaa, we can easily get an unhealthy consciousness (akusala cittam) that contains it or arises together with it. Now the unhealthy consciousness also belongs to the one of the four ultimate realities. So it is also another instance of abhidhamma. 2. the performance of what's skillful. Performance of what is skillful is another way of saying "doing a healthy action" which is one of the healthy path of actions (kusala kammapatha). Thus, we get a healthy cetanaa and a healthy mind, both of which are abhidhammas. 3. cleansing of one's mind Mind is one of the four ultimates, so it is an abhidhamma. 4. the four noble truths. The Noble Truth of Dukkha contains the five aggregates for obsession (pañcupaadaanakkhandhaa). These five aggregate contains the three ultimate realities in terms of matter, mind and mental associates. The Noble Truth Of Samudaya is attachment, which is to do with greed (lobha). As such, it is a mental associate (cetasika). The Noble Truth Of Nirodha is nibbaana, so it is an ultimate reality. The Noble Truth Of Magga is an eightfold mental associates (cetasikas). Therfore, the four noble truths are abhidhammas. 23348 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 2:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hi, Ken (and Christine) - In a message dated 7/9/03 7:31:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > My comment, "There is no mention of vipassana meditation > in the ancient literature," was aimed purely at the > purported, *intentional practice* of vipassana -- as if > there could be control over such things. > > =========================== Ken, can't you picture a purple elephant right now? Try it? ... Well, could you do it? Could you exercise that volition? Can you stand up and then sit down, Ken? If you could do these things, it required that you turn your attention to them. It is possible to develop (yes, intentionally develop) the habit of *paying attention* to whatever is happening at the moment. Such paying attention, and remembering to do so, is sati. It's easier to pay attention when one sits still, body upright and even, and with eyes closed, to limit the variety of inputs, but it can be done at any time. It simply requires regular, intentional *practice*, so that the ability is enhanced and the habit is fixed. Of course, if no attempt at such practice is made, why should such ability or habit develop? Things require causes and conditions for their arising. (Of course, there is no "one" who is practicing, except in a manner of speaking. But so what?) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23349 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice: To Howard, Victor, and Mike p.s. Since we were discussing gratitude recently, I'd like to add that your post conditioned a profound sense of gratitude toward the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, very calm and detached. To me, this seems like a good case of delight not based on sense pleasure (though lots of akusala popping up too, no doubt). That the Buddhavacana can still ring as clearly as a bell after twenty-five hundred years--in imperfect translation into an utterly foreign language, no less--also reminds me why the Buddha called teaching the ultimate miracle. Instructed, incited, aroused and gladdened, mike 23350 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 9:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] what next Larry Sounds to me like a good choice. But I'd like to hear what others have to say. I think the first part of the wisdom section in particular (which is a general introduction followed by the aggregates in detail) would be of great value. Anyway, take your time to recover, and happy reading in the meantime (and remember, awareness can arise at any time; the seeing and visible object, thinking, pleasant feeling etc that constitute the reading of Harry Potter are the same fundamental phenomena that constitute other moments of reading). Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > You asked what I would like to post as a study thread. I was > thinking of > the wisdom section of the Visuddhimagga. We obviously can't post > the > whole thing so interested people will have to follow along with > their > own copy and I will post a paragraph or two from time to time. I'm > starting out very slowly so if anyone wants to pick up the pace and > jump > ahead with a posting of their own that's fine with me. I don't > think > there is a problem with jumping back and forth between earlier and > later > passages. I'm taking a little time off now, reflecting and clearing > my > head with a rather large dose of Harry Potter but will resume soon. > > Larry 23351 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] my time with A. Sujin 3. Nina I'm enjoying this series very much. Many things I haven't heard before. Also, I much admire your accumulations for making notes of what you hear and then setting it out for others to read -- a great benefit to many, many people. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Kio and all, > Kio asked: > In the last post, you said: "I became used to the different types > of > citta, consciousness." What was the few specific incidents in your > early days that you found the glimpse of dhamma? > Nina: > My time with A. Sujin 3. > At breakfast I listened to A. Sujin¹s radio program and heard time > and again 23352 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 11:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Time with A. Sujin 4. Dear Kiyo, I am only taking out one remark from your letter. op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > practicing the `process' (may I also say, sila- > samadhi-panna?) will lead to elimination of suffering. My time with A. Sujin. 4 A. Sujin taught me what is kusala and what is akusala by her example. The observing of precepts is not a matter of rules one has to follow. She explained that there is no self who can direct the arising of kusala, that it is sati which conditions refraining from akusala and performing kusala. Since I was in the diplomatic service I went to cocktail parties and took drinks. A. Sujin would never say, don¹t drink. She would explain that it is sati that makes one refrain from akusala. Gradually I had less inclinations to drinking, and this happened because of conditions. I did not know that killing snakes or insects was akusala. When I was in A. Sujin¹s house, we were having some sweets, and when flies were eating some crumbs on the floor, A. Sujin said, we let them enjoy these too. I had never considered before to give flies something they would enjoy, it was a new idea to me. I learnt more in detail what was kusala, what akusala. I began to refrain from killing insects and snakes. She also taught me that it is kusala sila to pay respect to monks, because the monks observe so many rules. She taught me to kneel down and pay respect in the proper way, touching the floor with forehead and hands three times. She taught me the importance of the Vinaya, and she explained that we laypeople should help the monks by our conduct to observe the Vinaya. We should not give money to them, but hand it to the layperson in charge. When we are in conversation with the monks we should not chat on matters not related to Dhamma. Together with her elderly father we visited temples and offered food. We often had lunch with her father in his favoured restaurant where they served finely sliced pork (mu han in Thai). We did not talk on Dhamma very much at such occasions, but I noticed A. Sujin¹s feeling of urgency, never being forgetful of the Dhamma, whatever she was doing. I was clinging very much to Dhamma talks, but throughout the years I learnt that we do not need to talk on Dhamma all the time, but that we should reflect on Dhamma and apply Dhamma in our life. A. Sujin is always such an inspiring example of the application of Dhamma. When we read the Visuddhimagga we see the three divisions of sila, concentration and panna. We may think of a specific order. However, A. Sujin explained that this is the order of teaching, that there is not a specific order according to which we should practise. When we carefully read about sila, we see that all degrees of sila are dealt with, from the lower degrees up to the highest degrees: the eradication of all defilements. Having kindness for flies and abstaining from killing is sila. Being respectful to monks is sila. Being patient in all situations is sila. Satipatthana is sila: we should remember the text about restraint of the six doors by mindfulness. It is satipatthana which is the condition for abstaining from akusala. As to concentration or calm, this has many degrees. There is calm with each kusala citta. Calm is not a feeling of calm, it means the absence of akusala. When we cling to silence and to being calm, there is lobha, not calm. Panna has to be very keen to know exactly which moment is akusala and which moment of kusala, otherwise we shall not know the characteristic of calm. When there is awareness of nama or rupa there is also true calm at that moment. As panna grows, calm grows as well. The eradication of defilements is the highest degree of calm. A. Sujin often stressed: when there is right awareness of a nama or rupa there is at that moment higher sila, higher calm and higher panna. Nina. (to be continued) 23353 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 3:20pm Subject: Re: Putting into practice: To Howard, Victor, and Mike Hi Suan, Thank you for your reply. So you meant that the Buddha's teaching is about non-doing of any evil,the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind. You meant that it is about the four noble truths. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Victor, Mike, Howard, and all > > How are you? > > Victor asked: > > "When you said that everything the Buddha taught revolves around > abhidhamma in the sense of ultimate realities, which are matter, > mind, mental associates, and nibbana, do you mean that the Buddha's > teaching is about the non-doing of any evil,the performance of > what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind? Do you mean that > it is about the four noble truths?" > > Yes, I do mean that, Victor. And it is about the four noble truths. [snip] > Hope my answers satisfy your questions. > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw 23354 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 4:12pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hi Howard, Sorry to butt in... > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 6:47 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH > > > Ken, can't you picture a purple elephant right now? Try > it? ... Well, > could you do it? Could you exercise that volition? Can you stand > up and then > sit down, Ken? My question is that, is that picturing kusala or akusala, with sati or without? Paying attention is not sati. I can pay attention when I cross the road. When I pay attention to breathing, it can be with or without sati, be with wisdom or without. Which one is it? How does it come about? I already thought of the purple elephant by reading your statement, without willing to think of the elephant at the first place. kom 23355 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Self Ownership James: "Perhaps the key to realizing anatta is to take ownership for all of your life's events, in this life and prior lives, rather than negating all aspects of the self on principle?" Hi James, I agree. There are basically two kinds of anatta. A dhamma that is empty of permanence is anatta and the emptiness of an apparent whole is anatta. Taking ownership of all of life's events, or simply more than one life event , is an apparent whole and so can be experienced as the emptiness of a composite. I've been thinking about this lately in regard to nama and rupa (mind and body). I find that I don't really take ownership of my body. In order to experience the anatta of a whole one must first find the whole. Larry 23356 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Re: Inquiry to Nina... for Victor Hi Azita, Thank you for your reply. Couple points: 1. Being on holidays, lying back on the beach in beautiful weather, one can feel quite peaceful. This is a refined pleasant feeling. 2. This pleasant feeling is not the same as lobha/greed. A pleasant feeling is neither wholesome nor unwholesome. Lobha/greed, subtle or not, on the other hand, is unwholesome. 3. This pleasant feeling, however, is impermanent, dukkha/unsatisfactory, and it is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." 4. If one does not have the desire/motivation to realize the cessation of the dukkha, one would never get there. With desire/motivation to reach the cessation of the dukkha, one takes the noble eightfold path, which leads to the cessation of dukkha. Once the goal is achieved, liberation attained, there is nothing left to be done. 5. When you say that cessation is not attained by wishing, it is attained by Knowledge, do you mean that it is the noble eightfold path that leads to the cessation of dukkha, and this noble eightfold path is to be developed? Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: [snip] > dear Victor, > perhaps not while being greedy, but I believe with very subtle > lobha, one can feel very peaceful e.g. imagine being on holidays, > lying back on the beach, beautiful weather, without a care in the > world at the moment, for me, that's very peaceful but I wouldn't say > it was kusala. > [snip] > Regarding the discourse, I'm wondering if the desire that's > spoken about is Chanda, which is desire-to-do, rather than Lobha. > The discourse is very uplifting, but if I didn't have some knowledge > of Abhidhamma, I would think that 'I' could do something to attain > Enlightenment. > I want to quote something that I just read from Nina: > 'so long as we have many defilements which arise time and again > and we have desire for the realization of the 4 Noble Truths, we are > very far from the goal'. > I know that I don't know just h0w deep 'my' defilements are, but > I'm fairly certain that there is a lot more akusala in a day than > kusala. > Cessation is not attained by wishing, it is attained by > Knowledge, and I quote here from Kom: > 'the 1st stage of insight is the distinction bet. nama and rupa. > Without this stage of insight, the person still holds dear all the > Khandhas as being truly theirs.' > > I present my question about Nibbana a little differently. > In Nina's book 'Conditions' p36, it says 'anything can be object of > clinging, except Nibbana'. Why is this? > > Thanks for dragging me out of the lurkers' corner, Victor. > patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita 23357 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 0:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hi, Kom - In a message dated 7/9/03 7:14:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > > My question is that, is that picturing kusala or akusala, with sati or > without? Paying attention is not sati. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The word 'sati' is usually given as "mindfulness" in English. Now, perhaps that is not paying attention, but exactly what is it, then? It certainly seems that one is noticeably mindful when and only when one is paying attention - not mentally "getting lost". -------------------------------------------------- I can pay attention when I cross> > the road. When I pay attention to breathing, it can be with or without > sati, be with wisdom or without. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps sati is *not* paying attention, though I tend to think it is. But it certainly isn't wisdom. Mindfulness, together with other factors may *lead* to wisdom, but it is not, itself, wisdom. ----------------------------------------------- Which one is it? How does it come about? > I already thought of the purple > elephant by reading your statement, without > willing to think of the elephant at the first place. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't follow you here, Kom. What do you mean by "Which one is it?" Which what is what?? How does sati come about? By careful practice. With regard to the purple elephant, and the standing up and sitting down, my point was merely that the exercise of volition is possible. Not only is it possible, it is *common*. In particular, paying attention to exactly what is happening at any time is something that one can exert the effort to do. The more one does it, the easier it becomes. One can develop a *habit* of mindfulness. It's not easy. It's a matter of cultivation. It requires ongoing vigilance. But it can be done. ------------------------------------------------ > > kom > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23358 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 6:37pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 4:59 PM > > > > My question is that, is that picturing kusala or akusala, with sati or > > without? Paying attention is not sati. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The word 'sati' is usually given as "mindfulness" in English. Now, > perhaps that is not paying attention, but exactly what is it, > then? Sati is non-forgetfulness of the object that brings the kusala states. For example, when we see other people being nice to another, when we anumoddhana that deed (even without active willing to do that), sati is not forgetful of that deed, and it arises with all the other associated kusala states. In the four foundation of mindfulness, sati is non-forgetful of its object, being nama and rupa (or the 5 kandhas), and it always co-arises with wisdom. > It certainly > seems that one is noticeably mindful when and only when one is paying > attention - not mentally "getting lost". I can be perfectly aware of what I am doing, but yet have no sati. When I cross the road, when I pay attention the cars coming and going, I am aware of those cars, but yet there is no sati. Sati only arises with sobhana states: its objects must be related to those of dana, sila, and mental development. I have to pay attention when I study math / other subjects too, but yet, there is no sati there either. The commentaries indicate that (in the section of the deportment of the bodies), that the meditator is aware of the body, but not in the same way that the jackals (and other animals?) are aware of its body. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Perhaps sati is *not* paying attention, though I tend to > think it is. I definitely don't think it is. When I automatically/reflexively anumoddhana a good deed, I might think I am not paying attention (since it is so fast and it already happened), but at that moment, there is sati. > > > Which one is it? How does it come about? > I already thought of > the purple > > elephant by reading your statement, without > > willing to think of the elephant at the first place. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't follow you here, Kom. What do you mean by "Which > one is it?" > Which what is what?? I was saying that when we pay attention to something, it can be with sati or without sati, and it can be with wisdom and without wisdom, and it can be with defilements or not. When I am paying attention to a beautiful woman (from being beautiful aspect), I know there is no sati anywhere: it is with defilements. > How does sati come about? By careful practice. I think it comes about because of the objects that appear, and mostly accumulations. One who has better accumulations will be more mindful than one who doesn't. This is why listening to the true dhamma (which is a result of kamma) is so important to one's accumulation. The true dhamma changes one's accumulations so that in the future, there will be more sati at all the different levels. > With regard to the purple elephant, and the standing up > and sitting > down, my point was merely that the exercise of volition is > possible. Not only is > it possible, it is *common*. In particular, paying attention to > exactly what > is happening at any time is something that one can exert the > effort to do. The > more one does it, the easier it becomes. One can develop a *habit* of > mindfulness. It's not easy. It's a matter of cultivation. It > requires ongoing > vigilance. But it can be done. > ------------------------------------------------ > I think my volition in thinking about elephant comes about because I saw what you wrote. If I don't hear or don't see, I normally don't think about purple elephants. Volition is a conditioned (sankhata, and sankhara) dhamma, just like sati and wisdom is. It comes about because of complex factors, not just will, or paying attention, or the kamma, or the accumulations alone. kom 23359 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi, Kom - In a message dated 7/9/03 9:38:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > I can be perfectly aware of what I am doing, but yet have no sati. When I > cross the road, when I pay attention the cars coming and going, I am aware > of those cars, but yet there is no sati. Sati only arises with sobhana > states: its objects must be related to those of dana, sila, and mental > development. ======================== I'm sorry, Kom, but I don't buy that at all. Mindfulness should not exclude any states that arise. If there is desire, there should be mindfulness of it. Likewise for aversion, likewise for sloth and torpor, likewise for all the hindrances. Negative as well as positive should be seen mindfully, not only the lovely, the beautiful, the wholesome, the sobhana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23360 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi again, Kom - In a message dated 7/9/03 9:38:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > > > How does sati come about? By careful practice. > > I think it comes about because of the objects that appear, and mostly > accumulations. One who has better accumulations will be more mindful than > one who doesn't. This is why listening to the true dhamma (which is a > result of kamma) is so important to one's accumulation. The true dhamma > changes one's accumulations so that in the future, there will be more sati > at all the different levels. ========================= And how do auspicious accumulations come about, Kom? By magic? Randomly? No. By right effort, by proper actions (kusala kamma). It seems that the only action some folks recommend is to listen to the Dhamma. That certainly isn't all that the *Buddha* said to do. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23361 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 8:29pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 8:06 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > > I can be perfectly aware of what I am doing, but yet have no > sati. When I > > cross the road, when I pay attention the cars coming and going, > I am aware > > of those cars, but yet there is no sati. Sati only arises with sobhana > > states: its objects must be related to those of dana, sila, and mental > > development. > ======================== > I'm sorry, Kom, but I don't buy that at all. Mindfulness > should not > exclude any states that arise. If there is desire, there should > be mindfulness > of it. Likewise for aversion, likewise for sloth and torpor, > likewise for all > the hindrances. Negative as well as positive should be seen > mindfully, not only > the lovely, the beautiful, the wholesome, the sobhana. > I don't think we are that far apart. Mindfulness only arises altogether with sobhana states, but its object can be anything, including akusala states. In the case of 4 foundations of mindfulness, its object is paramatha (vipassana & tranquil development) or concepts (tranquil development). What I am saying is that, Howard, that sometimes, what we might take as mindfulness may be subtle, or even gross (ignorance would hide this) attachments toward wanting to know the characteristic of the object, wanting to have sati, wanting to progress in the path. Can we tell the difference between mindfulness and attachments? As long as one still has strong attachment toward having sati, reaching nibbana is impossible. The more attachments we have (without knowing the difference), the more likely we are to veer off into the wrong path (micha-magga) and to reach the wrong release (micha-vimutti). The Buddha exposed both micha-magga and micha-vimutti only because they exist, and I think they exist in all shades of subtleties, as long as we still have wrong grasps and wrong understandings of how realities work (paramatha sacca), and how panna becomes developed. kom 23362 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi, Kom - In a message dated 7/9/03 11:30:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > >Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 8:06 PM > >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > > > >>I can be perfectly aware of what I am doing, but yet have no > >sati. When I > >>cross the road, when I pay attention the cars coming and going, > >I am aware > >>of those cars, but yet there is no sati. Sati only arises with sobhana > >>states: its objects must be related to those of dana, sila, and mental > >>development. > >======================== > > I'm sorry, Kom, but I don't buy that at all. Mindfulness > >should not > >exclude any states that arise. If there is desire, there should > >be mindfulness > >of it. Likewise for aversion, likewise for sloth and torpor, > >likewise for all > >the hindrances. Negative as well as positive should be seen > >mindfully, not only > >the lovely, the beautiful, the wholesome, the sobhana. > > > > I don't think we are that far apart. Mindfulness only arises altogether > with sobhana states, but its object can be anything, including akusala > states. In the case of 4 foundations of mindfulness, its object is > paramatha (vipassana &tranquil development) or concepts (tranquil > development). What I am saying is that, Howard, that sometimes, what we > might take as mindfulness may be subtle, or even gross (ignorance would hide > this) attachments toward wanting to know the characteristic of the object, > wanting to have sati, wanting to progress in the path. Can we tell the > difference between mindfulness and attachments? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I had misunderstood you. Yes, we're not too far apart on this issue. --------------------------------------------------- > > As long as one still has strong attachment toward having sati, reaching > nibbana is impossible. The more attachments we have (without knowing the > difference), the more likely we are to veer off into the wrong path > (micha-magga) and to reach the wrong release (micha-vimutti). The Buddha > exposed both micha-magga and micha-vimutti only because they exist, and I > think they exist in all shades of subtleties, as long as we still have wrong > grasps and wrong understandings of how realities work (paramatha sacca), and > how panna becomes developed. > > kom > > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23363 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 9:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what next Dear Larry and Jon, Yes a good idea. Not so easy to get the Pali text, we may need it. Nina op 09-07-2003 18:59 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > I think the first part of the wisdom section in particular (which is > a general introduction followed by the aggregates in detail) would be > of great value. 23364 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 9:33pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 8:11 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > > > How does sati come about? By careful practice. > > > > I think it comes about because of the objects that appear, and mostly > > accumulations. One who has better accumulations will be more > mindful than > > one who doesn't. This is why listening to the true dhamma (which is a > > result of kamma) is so important to one's accumulation. The true dhamma > > changes one's accumulations so that in the future, there will > be more sati > > at all the different levels. > > ========================= > And how do auspicious accumulations come about, Kom? By magic? > Randomly? No. By right effort, by proper actions (kusala kamma). > It seems that the > only action some folks recommend is to listen to the Dhamma. That > certainly > isn't all that the *Buddha* said to do. Not at all, Howard. Dhamma arises because there are conditions for it to arise. Association with the wise person allows the possibilities of listening to the true dhamma. Listening to (and understanding) the true dhamma conditions wise consideration (thinking). Wise consideration conditions the sati and wisdom at the pati-pati (practice) level. All coming from listening to the true dhamma, and wise consideration. Panna at the higher level, at the more refined level, comes from panna at the lower, coarser level. Wisdom doesn't come from ignorance, and is not random, as nothing, as the Buddha has taught, comes about randomly or without cause. kom 23365 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 5:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello from a new (old!) member Dear Htoo Naing, Thanks for your message dated 7/03/2003. My computer was down for five days, so I'm delayed in getting back to you. You inquired about what Pali texts I have read in translation. Not many, really. I have read The Dhammapada and Suttas of varying lengths, most recently The Udana, the third book of the Khuddaka Nikaya. Right now I am exceedingly busy and haven't much time for reading. When I have more time, I hope to get some suggestions for systematic reading. Be well and happy. Clyde Appleton 23366 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 5:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from a new (old!) member Hello Howard (11--not 13--years my junior!), Thanks for your messages. My computer was down for five days, so I was delayed in replying. Yes, my practice is very important to me. My reading of the Suttas, etc. has been very limited. When I have more time--currently I am exceedingly busy--I hope that my reading of Pali texts will be more systematic. Suggestions surely are welcome. May you be well and happy. Clyde Appleton 23367 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from a new (old!) member Dear Jon, Thanks for your welcoming message. My computer was down for 5 days, so my reply was delayed. My reading of the Suttas, etc. has been limited. Right now I'm exceedingly busy. When I have more time, I hope that my reading will be more systematic. Any suggestions will be appreciated. Be well and happy. Clyde Appleton 23368 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 10:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hi Howard, You wrote: -------------- > Ken, can't you picture a purple elephant right now? Try it? ... Well, could you do it? Could you exercise that volition? > --------------- At the end of the second sentence, I paused a moment, then thought, "Yes, done that," and read on to the end of the paragraph. Reading it a second time, I didn't go through with the imagining exercise at all; I was following other trains of thought. Some time later, I put more effort into it and realised that, on the very first reading, I hadn't imagined a purple elephant at all! There had been the vague notion of a blurry object and the thought "Yes, done that," accompanied by the desire to keep reading. Only now, was I actually getting a recognisable image. (Visualising an elephant isn't so hard but getting the colour right is another matter.) :-) ----------------- > Can you stand up and then sit down, Ken? > ----------------- This experiment also proved inconclusive. At the time, I didn't stand up and sit down. I could have; I thought about it briefly, but kept reading. Why didn't I? Who knows -- on another occasion I might have. The idea that I have control over these things is just that; an idea. (Since then, there have been forays to the kitchen for coffee and chocolate biscuits; so I know I can stand up and sit down when I want to.) :-) --------------- > If you could do these things, it required that you turn your attention to them. It is possible to develop (yes, intentionally develop) the habit of *paying attention* to whatever is happening at the moment. > ---------------- How do you know there is this ability? You would hate to think of living beings as mere puppets of fate and, I agree, that is a wrong view, but the signs could be interpreted either way. The mistake is made as soon as we accept 'living beings' as anything more than a convenient figure of speech. Having made that mistake, there are only two options; living beings have free-will or; living beings have no free-will. Actually, [as we know], there are two other logical possibilities; living beings could have neither free-will nor not free-will or; they could have both free-will and not free-will. All four possibilities hinge on the wrong view that a 'living being' is something more than momentary, impersonal, nama and rupa. ------------- > Such paying attention, and remembering to do so, is sati. > ------------- I take your point that 'paying attention' is a conventional explanation for certain paramattha dhammas but, in this case, you have chosen the wrong one. Sati is present only in kusala consciousness. I don't see how imagining an elephant or standing-and-sitting are necessarily kusala activities :-) --------------- > It's easier to pay attention when one sits still, body upright and even, and with eyes closed, to limit the variety of inputs, but it can be done at any time. > --------------- Perhaps I'm being unnecessarily argumentative, but I don't know that this is so. I have had formal meditation sessions (as have friends I have spoken to), where there is incessant restlessness, distraction and all sorts of unwholesome thoughts. But that is besides the point. Whether we are sitting quietly or running to catch a bus, right mindfulness can arise -- provided the necessary wisdom has been developed. --------------- > It simply requires regular, intentional *practice*, so that the ability is enhanced and the habit is fixed. > ---------------- Again, I'm probably being argumentative, but how do you explain those occasions when your meditation has been unproductive? From my experience, it is usual to blame the poor old meditator -- he hasn't followed the instructions, he hasn't tried hard enough, he lacks faith . . . and so on. These are excuses for a flawed theory. The fact is, trying to force sati or any wholesomeness to arise can produce, at best, pleasant feelings born of attachment or, at worst, bitter disappointment and self recrimination. --------------- > Of course, if no attempt at such practice is made, why should such ability or habit develop? Things require causes and conditions for their arising. > --------------- I like to think that my surfing has steadily improved over the years and that this has been due to regular practice with concentration and mindfulness. But what reality is surfing? What reality is surfboard, surfer, cut-back, cover-up, re-entry or wipe-out? These are mere concepts and so is the notion of intentional training. ---------------- > (Of course, there is no "one" who is practicing, except in a manner of speaking. But so what?) > ----------------- The fact of no-self makes a mockery of everything we say, do and aspire to, in conventional, worldly life. Whether we think we are surfers or meditators, we are quite mad. :-) Kind regards, Ken 23369 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: Self Ownership --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > James: "Perhaps the key to realizing anatta is to take ownership for all > of your life's events, in this life and prior lives, rather than > negating all aspects of the self on principle?" > > Hi James, > > I agree. There are basically two kinds of anatta. A dhamma that is empty > of permanence is anatta and the emptiness of an apparent whole is > anatta. Taking ownership of all of life's events, or simply more than > one life event , is an apparent whole and so can be experienced as the > emptiness of a composite. I've been thinking about this lately in regard > to nama and rupa (mind and body). I find that I don't really take > ownership of my body. In order to experience the anatta of a whole one > must first find the whole. > > Larry Hi Larry, I am glad that you understand and agree. I agree with you also; I especially agree with your observation of the body. It is difficult to take ownership for the body, the body that in youth grants us pleasures we know we didn't earn and in old age steals away what we think we deserve. It is suffering to be born only to grow old and die. I am also working on accepting the aging of my body, nearing my eventual death with tell-tale signs, and to not feel cheated…to take ownership for it all. I think I know what must be done but that doesn't mean I have done it yet ;-). Metta, James 23370 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:23am Subject: Re: Putting into practice/Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 8:11 PM > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > > > > > > How does sati come about? By careful practice. > > > > > > I think it comes about because of the objects that appear, and mostly > > > accumulations. One who has better accumulations will be more > > mindful than > > > one who doesn't. This is why listening to the true dhamma (which is a > > > result of kamma) is so important to one's accumulation. The true dhamma > > > changes one's accumulations so that in the future, there will > > be more sati > > > at all the different levels. > > > > ========================= > > And how do auspicious accumulations come about, Kom? By magic? > > Randomly? No. By right effort, by proper actions (kusala kamma). > > It seems that the > > only action some folks recommend is to listen to the Dhamma. That > > certainly > > isn't all that the *Buddha* said to do. > > Not at all, Howard. Dhamma arises because there are conditions for it to > arise. Association with the wise person allows the possibilities of > listening to the true dhamma. Listening to (and understanding) the true > dhamma conditions wise consideration (thinking). Wise consideration > conditions the sati and wisdom at the pati-pati (practice) level. All > coming from listening to the true dhamma, and wise consideration. Panna at > the higher level, at the more refined level, comes from panna at the lower, > coarser level. Wisdom doesn't come from ignorance, and is not random, as > nothing, as the Buddha has taught, comes about randomly or without cause. > > kom Hi Kom, I want to relate a little story. Today my father and I had a discussion about thermodynamics. He was commenting on the weather here in Phoenix, Arizona, which will soon be 116-117 degrees f., and said, "I am surprised it isn't even hotter around here with all of the air conditioners taking the heat out of the houses and buildings and putting it outside." I disagreed with what he had to say and explained to him that heat isn't a substance but a reaction and that air conditioners don't remove the heat from spaces, leaving cold, that they refrigerate the air that is continually present…when the air molecules are less excited by the energy of photons (found in light), they move slower and become cooler. At first he disagreed with me, because it wasn't what he had been taught, but eventually he agreed…it is difficult to argue science and my father isn`t a stupid man, just misinformed. I relate this story because your observations about panna (wisdom) remind me of my father's beliefs about heat and cold. With all due respect, you seem to believe that panna is like a substance, it is either present or it isn't, and that only panna can come from panna and that only ignorance comes from ignorance. Panna and ignorance are two conditions of the same thing: mind; just as heat and cold are two conditions of the same thing: matter. When you see panna as a substance that either a person has or doesn't have, that type of thinking becomes elitist…just like the thinking that only the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and that both happen because of 'accumulations'. I find this to be a type of intellectual/wisdom bigotry. The potential for Buddhahood is in us all, it is up to each of us to create the right conditions, not resign our fate to 'accumulations'. Metta, James 23371 From: Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi, Kom - In a message dated 7/10/03 12:35:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > > And how do auspicious accumulations come about, Kom? By magic? > >Randomly? No. By right effort, by proper actions (kusala kamma). > >It seems that the > >only action some folks recommend is to listen to the Dhamma. That > >certainly > >isn't all that the *Buddha* said to do. > > Not at all, Howard. Dhamma arises because there are conditions for it to > arise. Association with the wise person allows the possibilities of > listening to the true dhamma. Listening to (and understanding) the true > dhamma conditions wise consideration (thinking). Wise consideration > conditions the sati and wisdom at the pati-pati (practice) level. All > coming from listening to the true dhamma, and wise consideration. Panna at > the higher level, at the more refined level, comes from panna at the lower, > coarser level. Wisdom doesn't come from ignorance, and is not random, as > nothing, as the Buddha has taught, comes about randomly or without cause. > > ============================= Okay, I didn't say quite enough. The auspicious accumulations are said to come about by listening to the Dhamma and "wisely" considering it. (This, then, the listening and the thinking, lead to wisdom, and wisdom leads to more and more wisdom). Now what did I say? I said "to listen to the Dhamma". Of course, I presumed that it was meant that one would not listen to it without trying to wisely consider it and understand it. So, in any case, it doesn't strike me that I was so off-base in saying that this position is that one should listen to the Dhamma. I still maintain that the Buddha said to do a lot more than that. (An understatement.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23372 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] what next Dear Nina, I can easily supply the Pali text from the CSCD and make it accessible (temporarily) by uploading the section you've decided on studying to the files folder or send offlist. I can even include the relevant section of the Maha Tika too if desired. Best wishes, Jim > Dear Larry and Jon, > Yes a good idea. Not so easy to get the Pali text, we may need it. > Nina 23373 From: dwlemen Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 7:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Kom, Please for give my (constant?) confusion. But, doesn't this imply a strictly deterministic system? In a book I'm currently reading ("The Wings of Awakening") it indicates that the Buddha rejected determinism (that everything is cause/effect) and he also rejected "chaos" (that everything happens randomly). It implied that the Buddha's "This/That" philosophy sort of merged the 2. That we are both influenced by conditions (cause/effect) but we also have the power over it, and can therefore break the cycle. The way I read your statement below, it sounds like you are thinking again of a deterministic system. Am I misunderstanding you? Am I misunderstanding my book? Or is there a divergence here? As always, I appreciate your time and patience! :-) Peace, Dave --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" > Dhamma arises because there are conditions for it to > arise. Association with the wise person allows the possibilities of > listening to the true dhamma. Listening to (and understanding) the true > dhamma conditions wise consideration (thinking). Wise consideration > conditions the sati and wisdom at the pati-pati (practice) level. All > coming from listening to the true dhamma, and wise consideration. Panna at > the higher level, at the more refined level, comes from panna at the lower, > coarser level. Wisdom doesn't come from ignorance, and is not random, as > nothing, as the Buddha has taught, comes about randomly or without cause. > > kom 23374 From: Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from a new (old!) member Hi, Clyde - In a message dated 7/10/03 12:45:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, clydera@a... writes: > Hello Howard (11--not 13--years my junior!), > Thanks for your messages. My computer was down for five days, so I was > delayed in replying. Yes, my practice is very important to me. My reading > of > the Suttas, etc. has been very limited. When I have more time--currently I > am exceedingly busy--I hope that my reading of Pali texts will be more > systematic. Suggestions surely are welcome. May you be well and happy. > Clyde > Appleton > > ========================= Thanks for writing, Clyde. I look forward to many interesting conversations with you. As for suggestions, please feel welcome to contact me on list or off about whatever you wish. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23375 From: Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/10/03 1:18:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > You wrote: > -------------- > > Ken, can't you picture a purple elephant right now? > Try it? ... Well, could you do it? Could you exercise > that volition? > > --------------- > > At the end of the second sentence, I paused a moment, > then thought, "Yes, done that," and read on to the end of > the paragraph. > > Reading it a second time, I didn't go through with the > imagining exercise at all; I was following other trains > of thought. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep. Rings true. None of us is very single-minded. ------------------------------------------------ > > Some time later, I put more effort into it and realised > that, on the very first reading, I hadn't imagined a > purple elephant at all! There had been the vague notion > of a blurry object and the thought "Yes, done that," > accompanied by the desire to keep reading. Only now, was > I actually getting a recognisable image. (Visualising an > elephant isn't so hard but getting the colour right is > another matter.) :-) ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, I'm very poor at visualizing. (I won't be a Tibetan Buddhist in this lifetime! ;-). I do much better better with sounds. But with practice, I could improve my visualizing skills. -------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > > Can you stand up and then sit down, Ken? > > ----------------- > > This experiment also proved inconclusive. At the time, I > didn't stand up and sit down. I could have; I thought > about it briefly, but kept reading. Why didn't I? Who > knows -- on another occasion I might have. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Probably for the same reasons that I wouldn't have, which would amount to disinclination due to laziness, disinterest, thinking "What? I'm supposed to follow his orders?!" ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------------ The idea that> > I have control over these things is just that; an idea. > (Since then, there have been forays to the kitchen for > coffee and chocolate biscuits; so I know I can stand up > and sit down when I want to.) :-) --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is no control in the sense of volition ruling. Volition is one of many conditions that play a role. It by itself is never enough. But it is needed, and, with supporting conditions in place, it is arousable. Also, one's volition may be weak, or even lacking due to disineterst or other factors. There is no doubt that, as with all other conditions, volition arises only when the conditions for its arising are in place. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > --------------- > > If you could do these things, it required that > you turn your attention to them. It is possible to > develop (yes, intentionally develop) the habit of *paying > attention* to whatever is happening at the moment. > > ---------------- > > How do you know there is this ability? You would hate to > think of living beings as mere puppets of fate and, I > agree, that is a wrong view, but the signs could be > interpreted either way. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This has been my experience. Were I better practiced, it would be my experience even more so. ------------------------------------------------------ > > The mistake is made as soon as we accept 'living beings' > as anything more than a convenient figure of speech. > Having made that mistake, there are only two options; > living beings have free-will or; living beings have no > free-will. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with you. this whole free will issue is a spuriouis one as I see it. --------------------------------------------------- > > Actually, [as we know], there are two other logical > possibilities; living beings could have neither free-will > nor not free-will or; they could have both free-will and > not free-will. All four possibilities hinge on the wrong > view that a 'living being' is something more than > momentary, impersonal, nama and rupa. > > ------------- > > Such paying attention, and remembering to do so, is > sati. > > ------------- > > I take your point that 'paying attention' is a > conventional explanation for certain paramattha dhammas > but, in this case, you have chosen the wrong one. Sati > is present only in kusala consciousness. I don't see how > imagining an elephant or standing-and-sitting are > necessarily kusala activities :-) ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, Kom made the same point. I think the distinction should be between sati and sammasati. For mindfulness (or attention) to have a salutary effect, it must not be self-centered, it must not involve craving/aversion/attachment. It must be accompanied by equanimity. That, BTW, is why samatha is of value. S.N.Goenka, for example, makes exactly the point that vipassana bhavana must involve mindful, *nonreactive* observation. ------------------------------------------------ > > --------------- > > It's easier to pay attention when one sits still, body > upright and even, and with eyes closed, to limit the > variety of inputs, but it can be done at any time. > > --------------- > > > Perhaps I'm being unnecessarily argumentative, but I > don't know that this is so. I have had formal meditation > sessions (as have friends I have spoken to), where there > is incessant restlessness, distraction and all sorts of > unwholesome thoughts. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Things change, Kom. In any case, even during such "bad" sittings, cultivation can occur. To be mindful of restlessness, for example, restlessness must arise! ----------------------------------------------------- > > But that is besides the point. Whether we are sitting > quietly or running to catch a bus, right mindfulness can > arise -- provided the necessary wisdom has been > developed. > > --------------- > > It simply requires regular, intentional *practice*, so > that the ability is enhanced and the habit is fixed. > > ---------------- > > Again, I'm probably being argumentative, but how do you > explain those occasions when your meditation has been > unproductive? From my experience, it is usual to blame > the poor old meditator -- he hasn't followed the > instructions, he hasn't tried hard enough, he lacks faith > . . . and so on. These are excuses for a flawed theory. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: First of all, we are not always able to properly make that judgement. Secondly, things do not always go as we wish, a point you certainly understand. Other conditions are not always favorable. But, things change. sometimes useful, sometimes not. Not every violin practice session is profitable. But after years of steady practice, one becomes a better violinist. -------------------------------------------------- > > The fact is, trying to force sati or any wholesomeness to > arise can produce, at best, pleasant feelings born of attachment > or, at worst, bitter disappointment and self recrimination. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Force is counter-productive.there must be trying that is is non-trying. Just calm oneself, and pay attention - again, and again, and again. -------------------------------------------------- > > --------------- > >Of course, if no attempt at such practice is made, why > should such ability or habit develop? Things require > causes and conditions for their arising. > > --------------- > > I like to think that my surfing has steadily improved > over the years and that this has been due to regular > practice with concentration and mindfulness. But what > reality is surfing? What reality is surfboard, surfer, > cut-back, cover-up, re-entry or wipe-out? These are mere > concepts and so is the notion of intentional training. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: As your "surfing" has improved, hasn't there, in fact, been changes in skills, in reaction time, etc, all reducing to changes in paramattha dhammas? ---------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------- > >(Of course, there is no "one" who is practicing, except > in a manner of speaking. But so what?) > > ----------------- > > The fact of no-self makes a mockery of everything we say, > do and aspire to, in conventional, worldly life. Whether > we think we are surfers or meditators, we are quite mad. > :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken > > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23376 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 8:31am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Dear Dave, I appreciated your response. > -----Original Message----- > From: dwlemen [mailto:dwlemen@y...] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:12 AM > > > Kom, > > Please for give my (constant?) confusion. But, > doesn't this imply a > strictly deterministic system? In a book I'm > currently reading ("The > Wings of Awakening") it indicates that the Buddha > rejected > determinism (that everything is cause/effect) and he also > rejected "chaos" (that everything happens > randomly). It implied that > the Buddha's "This/That" philosophy sort of > merged the I think perhaps what the book takes from is the question: is everything happening now a result of kamma (cause)? The Buddha clearly said no. However, there are many different kinds of causes, kamma being just one (but one of the most prominent) of them. If you remember one of the most famous utterance the Buddha made, that (forgive the inelegant translation): all sankhara, conditioned by its conditioning factors, normally disintegrates. Because of that, you should fulfill the factor of non-carelessness. All sankhara, or all the kandhas, sense-bases, and elements, each comes about because of its own conditions. Without the proper conditions, it doesn't arise. What is going on right now isn't just caused by what happened in the past. The mentality, and its co-arising (present) factors, conditions one another to arise. On the other hand, the past plays very prominent factors of the present (just think about how hard it is to break some habits). I highly recommends this book written by Nina (Conditions): http://www.zolag.co.uk/condf.pdf > 2. That we > are both influenced by conditions (cause/effect) > but we also have the > power over it, and can therefore break the cycle. Nobody can control the dhamma, as it must arise when there are conditions for it to arise. We also can't control its falling away, or its disintegration. Nobody can change the characteristic of attachment: when there is attachment, it is not a characteristic of anger, or kindness. Then it falls away, and then something else comes in place of it, which can be wholesome, or more unwholesome. > The way I read your statement below, it sounds > like you are thinking > again of a deterministic system. Am I > misunderstanding you? Am I > misunderstanding my book? Or is there a divergence here? > We are changing every moment, Dave, but it is by the conditions, and not us who made a change. Our accumulations are being changed constantly by past and present conditions. We cannot possibly learn more about the Buddha's teachings if Buddhists materials are inaccessible to us. We can not learn about visible object, unless visible object appears. A dhamma (be it attachment or wisdom) cannot come about unless it has all the causative and supporting conditions. Kamma cannot give its result unless there are other conditions that support it. If the weather is good, there is mostly no opportunity for bad kamma to give results (in term of being too hot, or too cold). This is why kamma cannot be all dominating conditioning factor. Things cannot be deterministic (to most people) because there are just too many variables (and the more important variables are not firmed/established yet). Let me give an example that appears to be pretty deterministic to me. The Ariyans, people who have reached any enlightenment level, cannot be possibly reborn in unhappy planes of existence. Wouldn't you say that is pretty deterministic? It's determined by past actions / accumulations (and the present states). kom 23377 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 8:45am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi James! Long time no talk :-). > -----Original Message----- > From: buddhatrue [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 2:23 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > I relate this story because your observations > about panna (wisdom) > remind me of my father's beliefs about heat and > cold. With all due > respect, you seem to believe that panna is like a > substance, it is > either present or it isn't, and that only panna > can come from panna > and that only ignorance comes from ignorance. > Panna and ignorance > are two conditions of the same thing: mind; just > as heat and cold are > two conditions of the same thing: matter. When > you see panna as a > substance that either a person has or doesn't > have, that type of > thinking becomes elitist…just like the thinking > that only the rich > get richer and the poor get poorer and that both > happen because > of 'accumulations'. Not at all, James. Panna is one factor among many mental factors. It comes about by its own conditions, and then it immediately falls away: it doesn't last. We gain more wisdom by listening (and understanding) the true teachings. For one with much ignorance, the Buddha's dhamma is a bright light showing us the path and the truth. We become more wise by associating with the wise: we cannot create wisdom, as it doesn't come from ignorance. Do you know that for our Buddha, he learned from the other 24 Buddhas before him (once he was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara that he would become one)? If panna grows randomly, or if it only takes tranquil (samatha) meditation, why did the Bodhisatta have to listen (and develop panna) with the 24 Buddhas before him, before he could become self-enlightened in his last life? Associating with the wise is the most important factor of developing panna. Do you ever talk about dhamma to your very bright friends who wouldn't listen? You know it is a good thing, how come you listen, and they don't? And for such a good thing? kom 23378 From: dwlemen Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 9:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Kom, To keep jumping in! ... Your description below brings to mind a lecture I heard just this AM from Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi. He talked about there being 2 aspects; Practice and Wisdom. If we try to practice w/o wisdom, then we are like the man driving from DC to NYC but with no directions, only taking streets at random (his simile). If we work on wisdom w/o practice then we are like the person who only reads the menu at a restaurant (again his simile). Peace, Dave --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" > > Not at all, James. Panna is one factor among many mental > factors. It comes about by its own conditions, and then it > immediately falls away: it doesn't last. We gain more > wisdom by listening (and understanding) the true teachings. > For one with much ignorance, the Buddha's dhamma is a bright > light showing us the path and the truth. We become more > wise by associating with the wise: we cannot create wisdom, > as it doesn't come from ignorance. Do you know that for our > Buddha, he learned from the other 24 Buddhas before him > (once he was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara that he would > become one)? If panna grows randomly, or if it only takes > tranquil (samatha) meditation, why did the Bodhisatta have > to listen (and develop panna) with the 24 Buddhas before > him, before he could become self-enlightened in his last > life? Associating with the wise is the most important > factor of developing panna. > > Do you ever talk about dhamma to your very bright friends > who wouldn't listen? You know it is a good thing, how come > you listen, and they don't? And for such a good thing? > > kom 23379 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self Ownership Hi James, I was just thinking of you when you sent this post. How is life in Egypt, any temples or Buddhists there? Best wishes, Nina. op 10-07-2003 01:41 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > James: "Perhaps the key to realizing anatta is to take ownership for all > of your life's events, in this life and prior lives, rather than > negating all aspects of the self on principle?" 23380 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dialogue on practice Dear Ken, Howard and Kom, I enjoyed your conversations on the practice very much. I shall add a few points. First to Ken: op 09-07-2003 12:47 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > It was reassuring to read recently, that you too, took a > long time to understand the difference between dhammas > and thinking. .... > Reflecting on some part of the Dhamma by way of study, > does not involve the idea of doing something in order to > achieve a result. However, the type of reflection I had > in mind, was not so innocuous. I was confusing study with > trying to put study into practice -- as if it gave me control > over reality. .. Nina:It is good to reflect, and different moments follow upon one another so closely. As A. Sujin always says, panna has to be so keen to know different moments. As Mike also said, he felt gratefulness to the Triple Gem but also realizes akusala coming in, clinging to calm. There may be some moments of mindfulness or reflection, and then it is normal that clinging follows. How could it be otherwise. I have the same experience. Listening, study, reading here on Email condition different moments of citta, kusala or akusala. Lots of clinging and also ignorance. Yesterday we were with my father. It is so difficult being with Pa, his mind is so disturbed and disorientated. He goes on and on with strange stories, and at times sitting there bores me. This is aversion and it will not help anybody. Fortunately he still appreciates the music we play, music therapy helps. Well, I have different moments. I remember your sympathetic words inspired by compassion, about my father and your parents. These when remembered inspire me. I also thought of the Buddha when sitting there, but I did this not on purpose to have kusala, it happened because of conditions, and sometimes I remember Jon's words that mindfulness of the present reality is the greatest respect to the Buddha. But mindfulness of the right object, of what presents itself, and right understanding of exactly that characteristic, that I still find very difficult. Howard and Kom: delighted with your dialogue. Helpful for all of us. As Howard says, sati is not wisdom. They are different cetasikas. As Kom points out, there is sati of different levels, with all kinds of kusala. When we speak of sati of satipatthana, or, this is the same, sati in vipassana, or sati as Path factor, then it is accompanied by right understanding. Sati is non-forgetful of the nama or rupa that presents itself now, be it pleasant, unpleasant, kusala or akusala, or neither kusala nor akusala, and panna knows the characteristic of that dhamma as nama or as rupa. Yes Howard, listening is essential, so that we have first intellectual understanding of the object of sati and panna. We should not underestimate listening and reflection on the Dhamma. So that we know: the development of satipatthana is not knowing what one is doing, or paying attention to what is going on. It is far more precise. Kom quoted the Co., jackals also know what they are doing. What Kom said here is very helpful: Yes, difficult for all of us. A fine discrimination between different realities is essential. A. Sujin always asks us: "is there any clinging to self who is doing something? Who is mindful? Begin again." It must be like that. The Abhidhamma can help us, teaching about latent tendencies, and one of these is wrong view. It always lays dormant in all cittas, ready to condition akusala citta with wrong view. Wrong view accompanies citta rooted in attachment, important to remember this. Thus, clinging to self arises and this should not surprise us. Think of the latent tendencies that are already there for aeons. I liked Kom's examples of saying anumodana already, by conditions. You do not have to think, it is sati that motivates this. This is the way it works. It helps most of all not to have any intention for sati, let it depend on conditions. We do not have to be lazy, we follow whatever opportunity for kusala presents itself. Listening, considering, helping others, and when there are conditions for some understanding of realities, it will arise because of its own conditions and it will grow very gradually. Nina. 23381 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:23am Subject: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 6. Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 6. The perfection of equanimity is evenmindedness, it is non-disturbance by controversial conduct of people, by trying events or by the vicissitudes of life, no matter whether they are desirable or undesirable, such as gain and loss, praise and blame. At present we suffer because of being easily disturbed and unstable, but someone who has firm understanding of kamma can become unaffected by the vicissitudes of life. If one develops the perfection of equanimity, one does not pay attention to the wrongs of others, as the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² explains. One can be impartial and evenminded, undisturbed by the wrongs of others, because one understands that people will receive the result of their own kamma. Some people may txink, when others receive unpleasant results, that it serves them right, but if someone has developed the perfection of equanimity, he will not think in that way. He is able to understand paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities, dhammas which are anattå and beyond control. We read in the ³Basket of Conduct² (The Perfection of Equanimity, III, 15, the Great Astounding Conduct) that the Bodhisatta developed the perfection of equanimity to the highest degree (as an ultimate perfection, paramattha paråmí), during the life he was the wise Lomahamsa. The Commentary states: The Great Being was born at that time into a wealthy family, and he completed his education, mastering all branches of knowledge under the tutorship of the teacher Disåpåmukha. When his parents had died he became disenchanted with worldly conditions and he acquired a sense of urgency, although the members of his family implored him while weeping to take care of the family possessions. He had become disenchanted because he contemplated impermanence with wise attention, he reflected on the foulness of his body, and he did not want to give in to the defilements that would cause him to be involved with married life. He thought of abandoning his possessions and becoming a monk, but then he considered that, as a monk, his good qualities would not be apparent so as to become praiseworthy. That was why the Great Being who was averse from gain and honour did not enter the state of monkhood. He reflected: ³I should just have sufficient belongings so as not to exceed what is normal as to gain and loss.² Someone who becomes a monk receives praise because of the excellence of monkhood. However, the Great Being rejected the gain and honour which one would receive as a monk. He thought that even though he would not be a monk, he would conduct himself in such a way that others could praise him. He would not exceed what is normal as to gain and loss. This is a way of thinking which is firmly established in kusala. The state of monkhood is different from the state of the layman. The monk is bound to receive more favours and honour than a layman, because of the excellence of monkhood. The Bodhisatta rejected gain and honour and he did not cling to them. He thought that he could lead a life as a layman without exceeding what is normal as to gain and honour. 23382 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:27am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi Dave, Thanks for jumping in. In dhamma, the more the merrier! > -----Original Message----- > From: dwlemen [mailto:dwlemen@y...] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:52 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > Kom, > > To keep jumping in! ... > > Your description below brings to mind a lecture I heard just this AM > from Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi. He talked about there being 2 aspects; > Practice and Wisdom. If we try to practice w/o wisdom, then we are > like the man driving from DC to NYC but with no directions, only > taking streets at random (his simile). If we work on wisdom w/o > practice then we are like the person who only reads the menu at a > restaurant (again his simile). > Let me ask you, Dave. Is wisdom practice? Is practice wisdom? kom 23383 From: dwlemen Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" > Let me ask you, Dave. Is wisdom practice? Is practice wisdom? > > kom So far as I understand things at this point, they are not eachother, but they are 2 separate things needed for enlightenment. Like you need head and air (and combustibles) to make fire (my simile!). Am I close? :-) Peace, Dave 23384 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 0:08pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi Dave, > -----Original Message----- > From: dwlemen [mailto:dwlemen@y...] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 11:40 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" > > Let me ask you, Dave. Is wisdom practice? Is practice wisdom? > > > > kom > > So far as I understand things at this point, they are not eachother, > but they are 2 separate things needed for enlightenment. Like you > need head and air (and combustibles) to make fire (my simile!). > This is how I understand it. There is only one path toward enlightenment, and that is the 8-fold path. Although all 8 factors are required to reach the path, wisdom is the forerunner: without wisdom, it is not a path. With wisdom, however, the other factors come along automatically. Although wisdom is not practice (the 8-fold path), but it is probably the most important factor. There are 3 levels of wisdom: wisdom at the listening level, wisdom at the consideration level, and wisdom at the "practice" level. Wisdom at the "practice" level has the 5-khandhas (or realities, paramatha-dhamma) as its object. Whenever there is sati (and wisdom) arising to cognize khandha as khandha, reality as reality (instead of reality as self), there is the wisdom at the practice level. Regardless of what you are doing, sitting, eating, walking, etc., when there is wisdom cognizing a reality as reality, a "practice" is said to have taken place. The next question I have for you is, when can we have this practice? kom 23385 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 0:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hi Howard and all, I would say that wisdom is right discernment. In that sense, wisdom is different from mindfulness. It is not much of seeing what is what. With right discernment, one sees thing as it actually is. In other words, with panna/right discernment, one sees the wholesome as wholesome, the unwholesome as unwholesome. With right discernment, one sees nama and rupa as impermanent, dukkha/unsatisfactory/imperfect, not self. With right discernment, one sees the four noble truths as they are: dukkha, the origination of dukkha, the cessation of dukkha, the way leading to the cessation of dukkha. I tend to agree with the following. ...the exercise of volition is possible. Not only is it possible, it is *common*. In particular, paying attention to exactly what is happening at any time is something that one can exert the effort to do. The more one does it, the easier it becomes. One can develop a *habit* of mindfulness. It's not easy. It's a matter of cultivation. It requires ongoing vigilance. But it can be done. Peace, Victor 23386 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Hi James! > > Long time no talk :-). Hi Kom, It really hasn't been that long, but since I used to talk so much it might seem that way...;-) I am going to reply to your post in piecemeal, something I don't like to do, because it is packed with many deceptively simple statements which can lead to false conclusions, I believe. In other words, it must be deconstructed: Kom: Not at all, James. Panna is one factor among many mental factors. James: I do not believe that Panna is one mental factor and I haven't seen statement of this in the texts. It isn't just one thing that only certain people possess. Panna is a broad term that can be applied to a large host of mental factors which lead toward truth and away from ignorance. Kom: It comes about by its own conditions, and then it immediately falls away: it doesn't last. James: Again, Panna isn't just one thing and this statement goes for everything in samsara; I am not sure of your point. Kom: We gain more wisdom by listening (and understanding) the true teachings. James: Only if we put them into practice. Intellectual understanding of Buddhism without the practice isn't true wisdom (Panna). Panna is different from intellect. Not everyone has the same potential when it comes to intellect, not all IQ potential is the same, but everyone does has the same potential when it comes to Panna. Panna isn't dependent on intellect, it is only dependent on the possession of a mind…even illiterates who have never read a word of `official` dhamma can have Panna. Kom: For one with much ignorance, the Buddha's dhamma is a bright light showing us the path and the truth. We become more wise by associating with the wise: we cannot create wisdom, as it doesn't come from ignorance. James: This is contradictory and extremely vague. If Panna cannot come from ignorance than ignorant people wouldn't be attracted to the dhamma; there would be no beginning catalyst. I also believe that you are misinterpreting the Buddha's teaching about associating with the wise. The Buddha didn't teach that one MUST associate with the wise to have wisdom, he taught that one MUST disassociate with the unwise in order to have wisdom…that it is better to travel alone than with a fool for company. The Buddha achieved enlightenment only when he had disassociated himself from everyone, a very important point to remember. Kom: Do you know that for our Buddha, he learned from the other 24 Buddhas before him (once he was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara that he would become one)? If panna grows randomly, or if it only takes tranquil (samatha) meditation, why did the Bodhisatta have to listen (and develop panna) with the 24 Buddhas before him, before he could become self-enlightened in his last life? Associating with the wise is the most important factor of developing panna. James: I don't believe this is factual, it is more fable than fact. It makes no sense that Siddhartha Gotama would have to learn from 24 different Buddhas before achieving the ultimate unbinding and yet during the Buddha`s lifetime several thousand monks achieved the ultimate unbinding. It shouldn't take the teachings of 24 different Buddhas to get a person there. Does that make any sense to you? This fable was created to increase the mystique and `superhero' status of the Buddha. The goal of a Buddha is to teach the direct path to Nirvana to his/her students in a manner that is to be followed to fruition, not to delay the process for lifetime after lifetime. Kom: Do you ever talk about dhamma to your very bright friends who wouldn't listen? You know it is a good thing, how come you listen, and they don't? And for such a good thing? James: I don't normally talk to people who won't listen, bright or not...except when I am teaching class and I have no choice ;-). However, most intelligent people listen to the dhamma as a subject of some interest; Buddhism is gaining popularity among the educated and many have some understanding of the basics. But intellectual understanding and practice are two different things. My question is why is it that there are so many who listen but then don't do? Kom Metta, James 23387 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:07pm Subject: Re: Self Ownership --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > I was just thinking of you when you sent this post. How is life in Egypt, > any temples or Buddhists there? > Best wishes, > Nina. Hi Nina, Thank you for thinking of me...just make sure they are always good thoughts ;-). I may write more to your inquiry later, stay tuned. Metta, James 23389 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi Kom, Regarding the discussion on pañña, here is a discourse that might be of some interest. Anguttara Nikaya VIII.2 Pañña Sutta Discernment http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-002.html Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Hi James! [snip] > > Not at all, James. Panna is one factor among many mental > factors. It comes about by its own conditions, and then it > immediately falls away: it doesn't last. We gain more > wisdom by listening (and understanding) the true teachings. > For one with much ignorance, the Buddha's dhamma is a bright > light showing us the path and the truth. We become more > wise by associating with the wise: we cannot create wisdom, > as it doesn't come from ignorance. Do you know that for our > Buddha, he learned from the other 24 Buddhas before him > (once he was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara that he would > become one)? If panna grows randomly, or if it only takes > tranquil (samatha) meditation, why did the Bodhisatta have > to listen (and develop panna) with the 24 Buddhas before > him, before he could become self-enlightened in his last > life? Associating with the wise is the most important > factor of developing panna. > > Do you ever talk about dhamma to your very bright friends > who wouldn't listen? You know it is a good thing, how come > you listen, and they don't? And for such a good thing? > > kom 23390 From: Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hi, Victor - Yes, we seem to very much in agreement on this issue! With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/10/03 3:43:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard and all, > > I would say that wisdom is right discernment. In that sense, wisdom > is different from mindfulness. It is not much of seeing what is > what. With right discernment, one sees thing as it actually is. In > other words, with panna/right discernment, one sees the wholesome as > wholesome, the unwholesome as unwholesome. With right discernment, > one sees nama and rupa as impermanent, > dukkha/unsatisfactory/imperfect, not self. With right discernment, > one sees the four noble truths as they are: dukkha, the origination > of dukkha, the cessation of dukkha, the way leading to the cessation > of dukkha. > > > I tend to agree with the following. > > > ...the exercise of volition is possible. Not only is it possible, it > is *common*. In particular, paying attention to exactly what is > happening at any time is something that one can exert the effort to > do. The more one does it, the easier it becomes. One can develop a > *habit* of mindfulness. It's not easy. It's a matter of > cultivation. It requires ongoing vigilance. But it can be done. > > > Peace, > Victor > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23391 From: dwlemen Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Kom, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" > > This is how I understand it. There is only one path toward enlightenment, > and that is the 8-fold path. Although all 8 factors are required to reach > the path, wisdom is the forerunner: without wisdom, it is not a path. With > wisdom, however, the other factors come along automatically. Although > wisdom is not practice (the 8-fold path), but it is probably the most > important factor. DAVE REPLY: Do you differentiate wisdom and "Right Understanding?" Also, when you say that "the other factors come along automatically" what do you mean? Especially if you are equating wisdom and Right Understanding. > > There are 3 levels of wisdom: wisdom at the listening level, wisdom at the > consideration level, and wisdom at the "practice" level. Wisdom at the > "practice" level has the 5-khandhas (or realities, paramatha- dhamma) as its > object. Whenever there is sati (and wisdom) arising to cognize khandha as > khandha, reality as reality (instead of reality as self), there is the > wisdom at the practice level. > > Regardless of what you are doing, sitting, eating, walking, etc., when there > is wisdom cognizing a reality as reality, a "practice" is said to have taken > place. > > The next question I have for you is, when can we have this practice? > > kom DAVE REPLY: According to your definition of a "practice" it could be done at any time. I thing we are going to return to the "to meditate or not to meditate, that is the question" question. I may very well be wrong, but I do still think of meditation as similiar to practice sessions (to reuse the word!). When I used to play soccer, we'd practice intensively between each game. I think that meditation is sort of the same. It trains the mind to prefer a singular focus vs. a scattered focus, and it trains the awareness to discern "reality as reality" by limiting the stimulus. I think we do have a time/place that we would do this. It's one thing to be sitting in my room and going "hearing hearing" when the dog barks. It's another to be in my truck going "seeing seeing" when oncoming traffic approaches. :-) Now, assuming what I take to be your (and Sarah's and others here) belief that meditation is not essential, how do you, personally train your mind to see "reality as reality?" (perhaps I'm asking "what is Right Effort?"). Peace, Dave 23392 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what next Dear Jim, Thank you for your offer. I appreciate this very much. Meanwhile I shall see how things work out or what will be decided. Nina. op 10-07-2003 15:54 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > I can easily supply the Pali text from the CSCD 23393 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:19pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Dear Dave, > -----Original Message----- > From: dwlemen [mailto:dwlemen@y...] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 2:38 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > > DAVE REPLY: > Do you differentiate wisdom and "Right > Understanding?" Also, when > you say that "the other factors come along > automatically" what do you > mean? Especially if you are equating wisdom and Right > Understanding. I do equate right understanding in the 8-fold path to wisdom. Wisdom is defined as mental factor that knows things as they truly are. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html In the above sutta, we can see that without wisdom, one cannot tell micha-magga (the misperceived 8-fold path) and samma-magga (the right 8-fold path). > > DAVE REPLY: > According to your definition of a "practice" it > could be done at any > time. Thanks for trying to understand what I said! > I thing we are going to return to the "to > meditate or not to > meditate, that is the question" question. I may > very well be wrong, > but I do still think of meditation as similiar to > practice sessions > (to reuse the word!). That's why the ancient commentaries and the abhidhamma are so helpful. They explain the 8-fold path, mundane and supramundane, more precisely, suitable for ones with much ignorance! > It's one thing to be > sitting in my room and > going "hearing hearing" when the dog barks. It's > another to be in my > truck going "seeing seeing" when oncoming traffic > approaches. :-) When wisdom knows the true characteristic of dhamma, that is when there is a practice. Immediately after that, we think about what has fallen away. When you say, hearing, hearing, (or think hearing, hearing), is that knowing the characteristic of reality or is that thinking? It is important to be able to discriminate the two. You are seeing now, no? You see how quickly seeing can happen, without prompting, without making any words to call it. Sati works in a similar way. Without thinking of words, it is mindful of the realities. Driving and wisdom at the pati-pati level are not exclusive. The mind and its mental factors rolled on uninterrupted: sati knows its object when it arises. There is no need to think to ourselves, that is too fast, I can't "catch" it: we are already thinking of the "I" who can catch. In realities, only dhamma rolls on, uninterrupted. > Now, assuming what I take to be your (and Sarah's > and others here) > belief that meditation is not essential, how do > you, personally train > your mind to see "reality as reality?" (perhaps > I'm asking "what is > Right Effort?"). > I think there are others who take my view point, but there are others who don't. Nina says in her book: citta is variegated. Now we can understand why! The abhidhamma teaches us that there are efforts in all kusala and akusala states. In akusala states, it is the wrong effort. In kusala states, there are the right efforts. With sati that is mindful of reality, it is the right effort of the 8-fold path. My answer to you is, whenever there is sati and wisdom knowing the reality as they are, there is already the right efforts, regardless of whether we know, don't know, want, or don't want it. kom 23394 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi James, > -----Original Message----- > From: buddhatrue [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 1:05 PM > > James: I do not believe that Panna is one mental > factor and I haven't > seen statement of this in the texts. This we disagree. > It isn't > just one thing that > only certain people possess. Panna can be developed. > Panna is a broad > term that can be > applied to a large host of mental factors which > lead toward truth and > away from ignorance. We disagree again! > > Kom: It comes about by its own conditions, and > then it immediately > falls away: it doesn't last. > James: Again, Panna isn't just one thing and this > statement goes for > everything in samsara; I am not sure of your point. Anything falling away points to the fact that nothing can be possessed, even panna. > > James: Only if we put them into practice. > Intellectual understanding > of Buddhism without the practice isn't true > wisdom (Panna). This we disagree. I would say intellect, knowing things as they truly are, but without knowing the actual characteristic, is just panna at a different level. > Panna is > different from intellect. Not everyone has the > same potential when > it comes to intellect, not all IQ potential is > the same, but everyone > does has the same potential when it comes to > Panna. That we also disagree. People understand dhammas to different degree because they have different accumulations. Do you think you and others have the same level of understandings of the dhamma? > Panna isn't > dependent on intellect, it is only dependent on > the possession of a > mind…even illiterates who have never read a word > of `official` dhamma > can have Panna. They must have accumulated enough. There are many in the Buddha's time, even after having listened to the teaching from the supreme teacher, didn't understand what he said, despite their education (of that time). > > Kom: For one with much ignorance, the Buddha's > dhamma is a bright > light showing us the path and the truth. We > become more wise by > associating with the wise: we cannot create > wisdom, as it doesn't > come from ignorance. > James: This is contradictory and extremely vague. > If Panna cannot > come from ignorance than ignorant people wouldn't > be attracted to the > dhamma; there would be no beginning catalyst. With the right conditions, panna can be induced in the people who don't have panna --- the is the reason of existence of the samma-sambuddha. > I > also believe that > you are misinterpreting the Buddha's teaching > about associating with > the wise. The Buddha didn't teach that one MUST > associate with the > wise to have wisdom, he taught that one MUST > disassociate with the > unwise in order to have wisdom…that it is better > to travel alone than > with a fool for company. The Buddha achieved > enlightenment only when > he had disassociated himself from everyone, a > very important point to > remember. Only the Buddha can be self-enlightened. Everyone else has to listen to the wise sage. No association, no chance of listening. > James: I don't believe this is factual, it is > more fable than fact. > It makes no sense that Siddhartha Gotama would > have to learn from 24 > different Buddhas before achieving the ultimate > unbinding and yet > during the Buddha`s lifetime several thousand > monks achieved the > ultimate unbinding. Only because there is a samma-sambuddha. No samma-sambuddha, then there can be only paceka-buddha, but not disciple ariyans. > It shouldn't take the > teachings of 24 different > Buddhas to get a person there. Does that make > any sense to you? I understand the dhamma to be extremely profound, and extremely subtle. It doesn't surprise me that it takes such a long time for a person to accumulate enough to be able to explain all the possible aspects of the dhamma. A disciple ariyan, who became enlightened because of the Buddha, don't need to know as many aspects: they don't even need to be able to explain it. > things. My question is > why is it that there are so many who listen but > then don't do? > Because we have different understandings of what "doing" is. kom 23395 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:40pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi Victor, If you are about to explain dhamma based on this sutta, please do! kom > -----Original Message----- > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 1:26 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > Hi Kom, > > Regarding the discussion on pañña, here is a > discourse that might be > of some interest. > > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.2 > Pañña Sutta > Discernment > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an0 > 8-002.html > 23396 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:57pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Dear Victor, > -----Original Message----- > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:37 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH > > > Hi Howard and all, > > I would say that wisdom is right discernment. In > that sense, wisdom > is different from mindfulness. It is not much of > seeing what is > what. With right discernment, one sees thing as > it actually is. In > other words, with panna/right discernment, one > sees the wholesome as > wholesome, the unwholesome as unwholesome. With > right discernment, > one sees nama and rupa as impermanent, > dukkha/unsatisfactory/imperfect, not self. With > right discernment, > one sees the four noble truths as they are: > dukkha, the origination > of dukkha, the cessation of dukkha, the way > leading to the cessation > of dukkha. > > I spoke too soon on the other post. I think you have already explained part of the sutta! With appreciation, kom 23397 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jul 11, 2003 1:20am Subject: Re: Putting into practice/Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Hi James, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: buddhatrue [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] > > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 1:05 PM > > > > James: I do not believe that Panna is one mental > > factor and I haven't > > seen statement of this in the texts. > > This we disagree. > > > It isn't > > just one thing that > > only certain people possess. > > Panna can be developed. > > > Panna is a broad > > term that can be > > applied to a large host of mental factors which > > lead toward truth and > > away from ignorance. > > We disagree again! Hi Kom, Hmmm…it looks like we are in disagreement about practically everything. Oh well, I don't think that you and I are ever going to see eye-to-eye on this issue because I practice formal meditation and you don't. We each view the dhamma in different ways and will probably never reach an overall agreement about certain key issues. No reason to keep butting heads over it! ;-). Metta, James 23398 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jul 11, 2003 7:04am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi James, > -----Original Message----- > From: buddhatrue [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 1:20 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > Hmmm…it looks like we are in disagreement about > practically > everything. Oh well, I don't think that you and > I are ever going to > see eye-to-eye on this issue because I practice > formal meditation and > you don't. We each view the dhamma in different > ways and will > probably never reach an overall agreement about > certain key issues. > No reason to keep butting heads over it! ;-). > Not perhaps in this life. If each of us continues on the path that the Buddha taught, eventually we will reach a similar conclusion. I believe truth is one! kom 23399 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 11, 2003 3:03pm Subject: FWD from Buddha-L List: "Paper on Universal Friendship" "Dear friends, colleagues and fellow practitioners, For the past several years I have been participating in an interfaith conference that has been meeting in various locations under various working titles, such as Conference on Actualizing Human Potential. The broad themes of the conference have been hospitality, hostility and the hope of human flourishing. The final meeting of this conference will be in Sevilla, Spain in December 2003. The Sevilla meeting will consist mostly of invited leaders from various religious traditions. Among other things, they will be asked to reflect on papers submitted by academic panel members. The invited Buddhist leaders will therefore be asked to reflect on a paper submitted by me. All of us who are submitting papers have been asked to let other members of our religious community examine the papers to make sure we have not misrepresented our religious traditions too much or given too one-sided a picture. The paper I am submitting is entitled "Buddhist Views on Overcoming Obstacles to Universal Friendship." The latest draft is available for viewing by anyone who would like to read it; it is a PDF file that can be viewed using Adobe Reader or xpdf (for you Linux users, blessed be your names) approximately 150K (24 printed pages) in length. If you are interested in reading it, you can do so by going to http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes/hayes_sevilla.pdf . If you have comments on this paper, please send them to me directly. If anyone wishes to discuss any of the issues raised in the paper on BUDDHA-L, I suppose that would also be fine, provided enough people are interested. Mostly what I wish to know is whether any of my fellow Buddhists feel I have given a portrait of Buddhism with which they would feel uncomfortable as Buddhist practitioners. (Of course the paper is bound to be selective and incapable of covering every possible Buddhist practice, but at least I hope not to have been unnecessarily one-sided or sectarian.) Just to give you a very superficial overview, the titles of the sections of the paper are as follows: 1. Hospitality and universal friendship 2. Hostility and xenophobia (the hindrances to universal friendship) 2.1 The nature of the problem 2.2 A critique of making unwarranted divisions 2.3 Outsiders: the foolish masses 2.4 Entering the stream 2.5 A presentation of two prognoses (Kant versus Gotama) 2.6 Two prognoses, two kinds of hope 3. Overcoming the hindrances 3.1 Going for refuge 3.2 The ten factors of awakening 3.3 Realizing one's potentials as a human being 3.4 Religious pluralism 3.5 Realizing the promise of Buddhism 3.5.1 Emphasis on practical psychology 3.5.2 Emphasis on spiritual friendship and community I look forward to getting comments from any of you who elect to read the essay and offer your reflections on it." Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes 23400 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 11, 2003 9:51pm Subject: Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Group, The Buddha taught anicca (impermanence) dukkha (suffering) and anatta (no self). My experience has been that anatta is the hardest to understand. With the other two - Suffering is quite easy to see, in a mild form like feeling bored, and in its grosser forms like pain, hate and fear; and Impermanence - change, is also easily seen e.g. always needing another hair cut, or to mow the lawn, things break, rules change, people die, thoughts and feelings come and go. But lately, I notice change never stops. Anicca seems, at first, to be the lesser condition to be concerned about - but of the three anicca, dukkha and anatta, over the last months, it is anicca that has become the greatest burden. Knowing that everything changes, one almost wonders 'why care about anything or anyone'? Things are just going to break, get lost, or be taken away. Hopes and expectations are not going to be met, or will be met for a while only. People are going to come and go (if you are fond of them) and come and stay (if you aren't). If something works just right (a group, a plan, a thing) don't relax - it'll all fall apart! How can anything be enjoyed, how can there be any happiness even for a little while, when there is the consciousness that, even it there are good times and contentment - nothing lasts, nothing can be relied on, that it'll all constantly change. Change is so unrelenting. One wonders, why bother making plans, buying things, creating things, even caring about dear ones - nothing lasts. Doesn't it seem that anicca and dukkha are one'? and doesn't it seem that if everything is painful, either in itself or because it can't be trusted to last and is always changing. And therefore, doesn't it seem that because there is no oasis or haven or centre of no-change anywhere, inside or outside of a person, that there is anatta and dukkha only because of anicca? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23401 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 12, 2003 0:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hello Howard, ---------------- > Actually, I'm very poor at visualizing. (I won't be a Tibetan Buddhist in this lifetime! ;-). > --------------- I forget that most people don't experience a lot of visualisation. It's an ability I've had since as far back as I can remember. I can't see pure blackness; when I shut my eyes, I can always see coloured pictures. It is a sign of thinking activity and there is very little sense of control over it. For example, instead of trying to visualise an elephant, I try to see an elephant in the shapes and pattens that emerge. Then suddenly, an elephant will appear but it won't be like the elephant I had anticipated. I can be anticipating a cartoon-like image but what appears might be the spitting image of the wild African variety. There is no eye contact involved and yet, the effect is remarkably like normal seeing. The lesson I take from this is that, what we normally call seeing, is mainly thinking. ---------------------- > I do much better with sounds. > ---------------------- I experimented with sounds this morning, and unexpectedly 'heard' the Simpson's theme -- most noticeably, Lisa's saxophone solo. Again, it's all [uncontrolled] thinking -- no actual sound and no actual hearing. ---------------------------- > But with practice, I could improve my visualizing skills. > ---------------------------- Yes, but where's it going to get you? ----------------- > There is no control in the sense of volition ruling. Volition is one of many conditions that play a role. It by itself is never enough. But it is needed, and, with supporting conditions in place, it is rousable. Also, one's volition may be weak, or even lacking due to disineterst or other factors. There is no doubt that, as with all other conditions, volition arises only when the conditions for its arising are in place > --------------- The only parts of your arguments that I tend to disagree with, are where there is a hint of something more than conditionality. In most aspects of daily life, there can be a very, very strong sense of control, but in reality, there is no control. Even in the most concentrated exercise of volition, whether it involves standing-and- sitting, or the tap of a finger or the blink of an eye, there is, in reality, nothing more than conditioned, impersonal, dhammas. ----------------- > > > As your "surfing" has improved, hasn't there, in fact, been changes in skills, in reaction time, etc, all reducing to changes in paramattha dhammas? > ------------------ Yes, the dhammas of each and every moment, [kusala and akusala alike], condition other dhammas -- both present and future. This is the way of samsara. In the development of the way out of samsara -- satipatthana -- right understanding comes first. In the development of other ways (ways which don't lead out of samsara), other dhammas come first -- eg., lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa. The more we practise those other ways, -- ie., the more moments without panna arise -- the more they are developed. But they are not the way out. It's tough, but when I think of the alternatives, I wouldn't want it any other way. Kind regards, Ken 23402 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 12, 2003 6:16am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Christine, Sorry to change the subject momentarily, but this post reminds me of an earlier post of yours: The one about your wanting to say something that would inspire your mother to take an interest in the Dhamma. I had one of those rare opportunities last weekend, when it seemed certain non-Dhamma friends of mine were ready to listen. They have an on-going, long-term family tragedy that is really getting them down. We were having a pleasant picnic by the river when one of them expressed sentiments just like the ones in this paragraph of yours: > Knowing that everything changes, one almost wonders 'why care about anything or anyone'? Things are just going to break, get lost, or be taken away. Hopes and expectations are not going to be met, or will be met for a while only. People are going to come and go (if you are fond of them) and come and stay (if you aren't). If something works just right (a group, a plan, a thing) don't relax - it'll all fall apart! How can anything be enjoyed, how can there be any happiness even for a little while, when there is the consciousness that, even it there are good times and contentment - nothing lasts, nothing can be relied on, that it'll all constantly change. Change is so unrelenting. One wonders, why bother making plans, buying things, creating things, even caring about dear ones - nothing lasts. > Seizing the moment, I launched into an explanation of absolute reality -- something I rarely do in non-Buddhist company. I told them about realities that were ultimately good or bad, ultimately pleasant or unpleasant, ultimately superior or inferior . . . I kept going for three or four sentences before they lost interest and changed the subject, but that's a near record for me. :-) Is there any point in dwelling on the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and soullessness of concepts -- things that aren't even real? I think it can only be depressing. On the other hand, dwelling on the anicca, dukkha and anatta of paramattha dhammas is uplifting, inspiring, liberating! The past no longer exists, the future has never existed, so what is there to worry about? What can go wrong; what harm can be done, if the entire world consists of the empty, mental and physical phenomena of the present moment? Of course, being uninstructed worldlings, we will cling to concepts and there will be worry and depression but, we are also Dhamma students: We have some understanding of absolute reality and we know that, ultimately, there are no 'worldlings' no 'Dhamma students' that suffer; there is only the empty, impersonal dukkha itself. Kind regards, Ken 23403 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jul 12, 2003 6:52am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence) --- dear Chris., I have been sitting here reading and re-reading what you have written, and I think it's very insightful. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > The Buddha taught anicca (impermanence) dukkha (suffering) and anatta > (no self). My experience has been that anatta is the hardest to > understand. With the other two - Suffering is quite easy to see, > in a mild form like feeling bored, and in its grosser forms like > pain, hate and fear; What about the good times, the joy, laughter and comfortable feelings? are they not 'suffering' too. For me, I translate Dukkha as 'unsatisfactory' bec. I think everything is Dukkha, except of course Nibbana. Driving to work the other night - have been on the Zombie shift - it suddenly occured to me that everything I know and have ever experienced, is totally out of my control, myself included. It was like there were only these two things, the conditioned, which is all I know and think about and cling to, and the unconditioned, which I know nothing about. It, strangely enuff, created a good mood, almost like relief. and Impermanence - change, is also easily seen > e.g. always needing another hair cut, or to mow the lawn, things > break, rules change, people die, thoughts and feelings come and go. > But lately, I notice change never stops. > change never stops - how right you are. I think this is one of those 'ah ha' moments, when you realise that anicca is real, not just something we read about in books. > Anicca seems, at first, to be the lesser condition to be concerned > about - but of the three anicca, dukkha and anatta, over the last > months, it is anicca that has become the greatest burden. Knowing > that everything changes, one almost wonders 'why care about anything > or anyone'? but then there's compassion and loving kindness, which is also anicca, which may arise and you will care for someone, even if its against your will!!!!! Things are just going to break, get lost, or be taken > away. Hopes and expectations are not going to be met, or will be met > for a while only. People are going to come and go (if you are fond > of them) and come and stay (if you aren't). If something works just > right (a group, a plan, a thing) don't relax - it'll all fall apart! > How can anything be enjoyed, how can there be any happiness even for > a little while, when there is the consciousness that, even it there > are good times and contentment - nothing lasts, nothing can be > relied on, that it'll all constantly change. Change is so > unrelenting. One wonders, why bother making plans, buying things, > creating things, even caring about dear ones - nothing lasts. > Is this bec you want it to last? Stupid question I suppose, of course we all want the good times to last. But maybe you're beginning to see the futility in the clinging. You know, Chris even the despondent moments don't last, in your own words 'change never stops'. > Doesn't it seem that anicca and dukkha are one'? and doesn't it seem > that if everything is painful, either in itself or because it can't > be trusted to last and is always changing. And therefore, doesn't it > seem that because there is no oasis or haven or centre of no-change > anywhere, inside or outside of a person, that there is anatta and > dukkha only because of anicca? > Yes, I think this is so. It is unsatisfactory bec it doesn't last, not even for a nanosecond, and it is anatta bec it doesn't last. I think it's ignorance that makes it atta. We don't know the truth, therefore we mix all the realities up and create a mirage. My middle name is Imogen, which means imagine/imagination - I think we should all be called Imogen bec unless we are very wise, we imagine all sorts of unreal things. > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita Imogen!! 23404 From: Date: Sat Jul 12, 2003 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi, Ken (and Christine) - In a message dated 7/12/03 9:17:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Christine, > > Sorry to change the subject momentarily, but this post > reminds me of an earlier post of yours: The one about > your wanting to say something that would inspire your > mother to take an interest in the Dhamma. I had one of > those rare opportunities last weekend, when it seemed > certain non-Dhamma friends of mine were ready to listen. > > They have an on-going, long-term family tragedy that is > really getting them down. We were having a pleasant > picnic by the river when one of them expressed sentiments > just like the ones in this paragraph of yours: > > >Knowing that everything changes, one almost wonders > 'why care about anything or anyone'? Things are just > going to break, get lost, or be taken away. Hopes and > expectations are not going to be met, or will be met > for a while only. People are going to come and go (if > you are fond of them) and come and stay (if you aren't). > If something works just right (a group, a plan, a thing) > don't relax - it'll all fall apart! > How can anything be enjoyed, how can there be any > happiness even for a little while, when there is the > consciousness that, even it there are good times and > contentment - nothing lasts, nothing can be relied on, > that it'll all constantly change. Change is so > unrelenting. One wonders, why bother making plans, buying > things, creating things, even caring about dear ones - > nothing lasts. > > > Seizing the moment, I launched into an explanation of > absolute reality -- something I rarely do in non-Buddhist > company. I told them about realities that were > ultimately good or bad, ultimately pleasant or > unpleasant, ultimately superior or inferior . . . I kept > going for three or four sentences before they lost > interest and changed the subject, but that's a near > record for me. :-) > > Is there any point in dwelling on the impermanence, > unsatisfactoriness and soullessness of concepts -- things > that aren't even real? I think it can only be > depressing. On the other hand, dwelling on the anicca, > dukkha and anatta of paramattha dhammas is uplifting, > inspiring, liberating! > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree with the foregoing sentence. The idea that all there actually appear are interrelated, interdependent, and empty phenomena that do not last and, thus, cannot satisfy, is fascinating. The direct realization of this, provided that the mind is calm and nonreactive, can be delightful and liberating. What is essential, I think, is being calm and nonreactive, and letting go. ------------------------------------------------------- > > The past no longer exists, the future has never existed, > so what is there to worry about? What can go wrong; what > harm can be done, if the entire world consists of the > empty, mental and physical phenomena of the present > moment? > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Absolutely true. As I like to put it: "Ultimately we are safe." But this can only be realized once grasping has ended. ------------------------------------------------------- > > Of course, being uninstructed worldlings, we will cling > to concepts and there will be worry and depression but, > we are also Dhamma students: We have some understanding > of absolute reality and we know that, ultimately, there > are no 'worldlings' no 'Dhamma students' that suffer; > there is only the empty, impersonal dukkha itself. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You mention clinging, Ken. I think this is key. Christine, you have pointed to impermanance as primary in causing suffering and even considered identifying suffering with impermanence. I think the former is correct, but the latter is not quite correct. Impermanence and conditionality are just that. In and of themselves, there is nothing wrong with them. But together with the ignorance that (unconsciously) takes the impermanent to be permanent and conditioned to be self-existent, and the craving for and attachment to what does not remain and is not self-sufficient, there arises suffering. When ignorance, craving, and aversion have been uprooted, still all worldly dhammas will be impermanent and conditioned, but no suffering will arise from that. From ATI, there is the following: ***************************************** The definition > "And this, monks is the noble truth of the origination of dukkha: the > craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, > relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for > becoming, craving for non-becoming." > >> -- SN LVI.11 > ********************************************** > > Kind regards, > Ken > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23405 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jul 12, 2003 3:26pm Subject: Re: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 6. --- Dear Nina, Could you explain this passage a little more please: In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 6. > > --He thought of abandoning his possessions and becoming a monk, but then he considered that, as a monk, his good qualities would not be apparent so as to become praiseworthy. That was why the Great Being who was averse from gain and honour did not enter the state of monkhood.---- It seems like he did not become a monk because his good qualities would not be apparent and therefore he would not be praiseworthy. I can't imagine he wanted to be worthy of praise, but I'm not really understanding this passage. It would make more sense to me if it read ---his good qualities would be apparent so as to become praiseworthy --- Would really appreciate some help here, please Nina. Thank you for these 'Perfections'. They are so beneficial for dealing with daily life events. Learning more about Metta has made life a little less stressful for me personally. I don't need to 'battle' with the world out there, I can be friendly instead. Beautiful. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita Imogen [bec I imagine things to be what they are not!] 23406 From: Antony Woods Date: Sat Jul 12, 2003 5:06pm Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Christine, Bhikkhu Nanamoli once wrote: "Such faith decides in advance that nothing arisen can reveal any permanence at all, however brief, and since all subsequent evidence supports the decision, if that evidence is not forgotten, craving is progressively stultified in the impossibility of finding any arisen thing worth craving for and is progressively displaced by the joy of liberation." (from p27 "Does Saddha mean Faith?" in "Pathways of Buddhist Thought" Wheel 52/53, Buddhist Publication Society, bps@m... ) metta / Antony. 23407 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 12, 2003 11:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Howard, You wrote: ------------ > I agree with the foregoing sentence. The idea that all there actually appear are interrelated, interdependent, and empty phenomena that do not last and, thus, cannot satisfy, is fascinating. The direct realization of this, provided that the mind is calm and nonreactive, can be delightful and liberating. What is essential, I think, is being calm and nonreactive, and letting go. > ------------- I'm not letting you have the last word on this :-) What is essential is an appreciation of the benefits of calm, equanimity, detachment and other kusala states. This is different from wanting those states to arise. When there is wanting, there is no calm, equanimity or detachment -- quite the reverse. Sometimes when I'm driving in traffic and another driver inadvertently pulls out in front of me, I immediately react with kindness and curtesy. ('sometimes, not always, unfortunately.) This is not due to any conscious effort, as if I had been chanting a mantra; "I must react with kindness if some unexpected incident occurs. I must react with kindness . . . etc., etc." When kusala reactions occur, it is because there is an appreciation of the benefits of kusala and of the dangers of akusala. Other, more ritualistic displays of curtesy, where there is time to wonder, "How should I react in this situation," are more likely to be motivated by desire. In the moments following a spontaneous moment of genuine kindness, there will probably be thoughts of, "Wasn't that a kind reaction, what a charming, likeable fellow I am." Then there will be ritualistic displays of bonhomie, and pleasant feelings but mostly, they will be accompanied by lobha. But even then, amongst all the conceit and sense delight, kusala cittas can arise [if the conditions are right]. There is simply no control :-) Kind regards, Ken 23408 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 1:39am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Howard, > > You wrote: > ------------ > > I agree with the foregoing sentence. The idea that all > there actually appear are interrelated, interdependent, > and empty phenomena that do not last and, thus, cannot > satisfy, is fascinating. The direct realization of this, > provided that the mind is calm and nonreactive, can be > delightful and liberating. What is essential, I think, is > being calm and nonreactive, and letting go. > > ------------- > > > I'm not letting you have the last word on this :-) > > What is essential is an appreciation of the benefits of > calm, equanimity, detachment and other kusala states. > > This is different from wanting those states to arise. > When there is wanting, there is no calm, equanimity or > detachment -- quite the reverse. > But even then, amongst all the conceit and sense delight, > kusala cittas can arise [if the conditions are right]. > There is simply no control :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken Hi Ken, I am afraid I would have to disagree. Many suttas from the Buddha state that we should seek that which is calm and harmonious and avoid that which is disharmonious; and we should actively, every moment actually, do this. According to you, this would only create disharmony. I think I understand where you are coming from: you see the seeking of harmony/happiness as being like a neurotic behavior… like Woody Allen in most of his movies where he spins and sputters in a feeble attempt to find happiness in a neurotic world. Granted, that is a sad picture, but it is no reason to become jaded to the true pursuit of true happiness. The problem with Woody Allen in his movies, and the flower children of the 60s, and the New Agers of today, is that they seek happiness and yet they don't want to give up those things which are making them unhappy. It is reasonable to seek happiness, much more reasonable that just 'waiting for it' (as you suggest), as long as the person is willing to surrender most 'everything' (in their minds) to get there. Wanna be rich? Wanna be famous? Wanna be pleasured? Wanna be loved? Wanna be you? If so, you won't be able to find happiness. Every attempt, when holding onto those things, will fail… and provide the fodder for so much satirical humor. Those things have to be abandoned to find happiness. How do you do that? If you don't have someone in your life, who you deeply respect, making you abandon them…you have to sit in deep contemplation/concentration until you don't care about them anymore...then push a bit further. Metta, James 23409 From: Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/13/03 2:31:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Howard, > > You wrote: > ------------ > >I agree with the foregoing sentence. The idea that all > there actually appear are interrelated, interdependent, > and empty phenomena that do not last and, thus, cannot > satisfy, is fascinating. The direct realization of this, > provided that the mind is calm and nonreactive, can be > delightful and liberating. What is essential, I think, is > being calm and nonreactive, and letting go. > > ------------- > > > I'm not letting you have the last word on this :-) > > What is essential is an appreciation of the benefits of > calm, equanimity, detachment and other kusala states. > > This is different from wanting those states to arise. > When there is wanting, there is no calm, equanimity or > detachment -- quite the reverse. > > Sometimes when I'm driving in traffic and another driver > inadvertently pulls out in front of me, I immediately > react with kindness and curtesy. ('sometimes, not > always, unfortunately.) This is not due to any conscious > effort, as if I had been chanting a mantra; "I must react > with kindness if some unexpected incident occurs. I must > react with kindness . . . etc., etc." > > When kusala reactions occur, it is because there is an > appreciation of the benefits of kusala and of the dangers > of akusala. Other, more ritualistic displays of curtesy, > where there is time to wonder, "How should I react in > this situation," are more likely to be motivated by desire. > > In the moments following a spontaneous moment of genuine > kindness, there will probably be thoughts of, "Wasn't > that a kind reaction, what a charming, likeable fellow I > am." Then there will be ritualistic displays of bonhomie, and > pleasant feelings but mostly, they will be accompanied by lobha. > > But even then, amongst all the conceit and sense delight, > kusala cittas can arise [if the conditions are right]. > There is simply no control :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken > ================================ We're not *too* far. I agree that "an appreciation of the benefits of calm, equanimity, detachment and other kusala states" is essential. I believe that to a large extent, their very experiencing leads to such appreciation, and hearing about how good they are is helpful too, but to a lesser extent. The direct experincing of these states, with clear attention, as well as the direct experiecing of contrary states (for comparison) also with clear attention, is primary as I see it. The kusala states can be cultivated, so that they will arise more strongly and more frequently, certainly not by wishing for these states, but by specific actions including guarding of the senses, samatha meditation, and a practice of ongoing mindfulness, all repeatedly recommended by the Buddda to his followers. BTW, I partly agree with you in the following. I will insert a couple comments: ------------------------------------------------------------ K: When kusala reactions occur, it is because there is an appreciation of the benefits of kusala and of the dangers of akusala. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: They occur because that "appreciation" has been imbibed, deep within, and transformed into a conditioned, automatic response (of genuine friendship, lovingkindness, sympathy, etc). ------------------------------------------------- K: Other, more ritualistic displays of curtesy, where there is time to wonder, "How should I react in this situation," are more likely to be motivated by desire. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Sometimes this can be well motivated ("I know this is the right thing to do"), but more often that is not so, or, at least, there are impure motivations (and ego) involved as well. ----------------------------------------------------- K: In the moments following a spontaneous moment of genuine kindness, there will probably be thoughts of, "Wasn't that a kind reaction, what a charming, likeable fellow I am." ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that can happen, which is "offsetting". However, when the inclination to "goodness" is deep set and firm, there is more often a reaction of simple joy at the event and a pure happiness that one is so inclined - a "gratefulness" as opposed to a conceit). -------------------------------------------------------- K: Then there will be ritualistic displays of bonhomie, and pleasant feelings but mostly, they will be accompanied by lobha. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Such "good will" is certainly defective. ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23410 From: Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 9:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi guys, Here's a thought. Tracing the chain of proximate causes, the proximate cause of insight is concentration, the proximate cause of concentration is "joyful interest" (piti). In jhana, I think the object of joyful interest is tranquility itself; that is to say the ever more tranquil aspect of the nimitta, object of jhana. That is why it is sometimes said that tranquility and concentration are the same. However, for insight practice I don't think tranquility is necessarily the object of joyful interest even though tranquility and insight seem to be inseparable whenever there is insight. So what is the object of joyful interest in insight practice? I think it has to be one of the three general characteristics (gone, not-desirable, not me/mine) but I'm not sure. If this were the case then the insight and what originally initiated the insight would be the same. Perhaps as Ken suggested the object of joyful interest is wholesomeness via sati. Whatever the object is it has to inspire joyful interest somehow. Any thoughts? Larry 23411 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:14am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/Azita Dear Azita Imogen :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" Azita said: "What about the good times, the joy, laughter and comfortable feelings? are they not 'suffering' too. For me, I translate Dukkha as 'unsatisfactory' bec. I think everything is Dukkha, except of course Nibbana. Driving to work the other night - have been on the Zombie shift - it suddenly occured to me that everything I know and have ever experienced, is totally out of my control, myself included. It was like there were only these two things, the conditioned, which is all I know and think about and cling to, and the unconditioned, which I know nothing about. It, strangely enuff, created a good mood, almost like relief." Chris: I agree - the good times are also suffering because they don't last and because they strengthen attachment and craving which causes rebirth to continue on and on. ============================ Azita: "change never stops - how right you are. I think this is one of those 'ah ha' moments, when you realise that anicca is real, not just something we read about in books." Chris: One of the problems for me is that I don't seem to retain understanding like this. The power of habitual thoughts (?and poor memory) seems to reinstate past thought patterns. Almost like when you save a draft in your email folder, then make some important alterations (new insights) and forget to press the 'save' button - so you lose the alterations and the new 'improved' understanding. ============================= <> Azita: "Is this bec you want it to last? Stupid question I suppose, of course we all want the good times to last. But maybe you're beginning to see the futility in the clinging. You know, Chris even the despondent moments don't last, in your own words 'change never stops'." Chris: It's good to be reminded that the despondent moments don't last - that's the good side of anicca, hey? ============================ Azita: "It is unsatisfactory bec it doesn't last, not even for a nanosecond, and it is anatta bec it doesn't last. I think it's ignorance that makes it atta. We don't know the truth, therefore we mix all the realities up and create a mirage. My middle name is Imogen, which means imagine/imagination - I think we should all be called Imogen bec unless we are very wise, we imagine all sorts of unreal things." Chris: Thanks for this - we do construct and fabricate all sorts of stories and meanings that don't really exist - just how to be aware of it as it is happening is the skill I don't have. I'm quite an expert with hindsight though. :-) =============================== Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita Imogen!! metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23412 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:16am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Antony and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" Antony, you wrote, quoting Bhikkhu Nanamoli:- ""Such faith decides in advance that nothing arisen can reveal any permanence at all, however brief, and since all subsequent evidence supports the decision, if that evidence is not forgotten, craving is progressively stultified in the impossibility of finding any arisen thing worth craving for and is progressively displaced by the joy of liberation." Chris: This is very helpful to me - especially the phrase 'if that evidence is not forgotten'. I remember a year or so ago also suddenly being conscious of the overwhelmingness of anicca, but it seems I forgot and settled back into old patterns and dulled awareness almost straight away. It is comforting to read Bhikkhu Nanamoli describing this sort of lapse as likely to happen to many people. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23413 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:28am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" KenH: "Sorry to change the subject momentarily, but this post reminds me of an earlier post of yours: The one about your wanting to say something that would inspire your mother to take an interest in the Dhamma. I had one of those rare opportunities last weekend, when it seemed certain non-Dhamma friends of mine were ready to listen. They have an on-going, long-term family tragedy that is really getting them down. We were having a pleasant picnic by the river when one of them expressed sentiments just like the ones in this paragraph of yours: Seizing the moment, I launched into an explanation of absolute reality -- something I rarely do in non-Buddhist company. I told them about realities that were ultimately good or bad, ultimately pleasant or unpleasant, ultimately superior or inferior . . . I kept going for three or four sentences before they lost interest and changed the subject, but that's a near record for me. :-)" ------------------------- Chris: I wonder if people with different world views can ever really understand each other? Maybe next time just say: "Yeah things are crook mate - doesn't seem very much point in anything somedays - maybe it's all sent to teach us lessons - I dunno - here, chuck these snags on the barbie will ya?" :-) ============================================================ KenH: "Is there any point in dwelling on the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and soullessness of concepts -- things that aren't even real? I think it can only be depressing. On the other hand, dwelling on the anicca, dukkha and anatta of paramattha dhammas is uplifting, inspiring, liberating! ------------------------ Chris: What about 'no control'? Don't thoughts arise unbidden? Are you now saying I CAN direct my mind? :-) ============================================================ The past no longer exists, the future has never existed, so what is there to worry about? What can go wrong; what harm can be done, if the entire world consists of the empty, mental and physical phenomena of the present moment? Of course, being uninstructed worldlings, we will cling to concepts and there will be worry and depression but, we are also Dhamma students: We have some understanding of absolute reality and we know that, ultimately, there are no 'worldlings' no 'Dhamma students' that suffer; there is only the empty, impersonal dukkha itself." ------------------------------ Chris: May I say that when I read the bit above, I found myself saying "Aauggh! KenH - You're SUCH a boy!" i.e. this is a gender related way of dealing with life. The idea that a complex problem can be solved by giving the bare facts presupposes that because something is fact, commonsense or reality - that anyone would be grateful to be told this, and that causes their problem to evaporate. :-) KenH - If someone regularly whacked you on the knee cap with a ballpeen hammer and then told you not to mention it as no harm can come to you, there is no ballpeen hammer, there is no 'knee' there is no 'you', there is no pain, that the past is gone and the future has not yet come - and all the time you are writhing on the floor in agony because of the results of the past conditions, would it seem to you that there was a slight gap between the theory and your own experience? ================================================================== Kind regards, Ken metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23414 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Howard, op 12-07-2003 16:20 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > The idea that all there actually > appear are interrelated, interdependent, and empty phenomena that do not last > and, thus, cannot satisfy, is fascinating. The direct realization of this, > provided that the mind is calm and nonreactive, can be delightful and > liberating. > What is essential, I think, is being calm and nonreactive, and letting go. > ------------------------------------------------------- Nina: It is liberating, but, as I see it, Panna should be stressed as foremost. When panna understands people and things we like so much as only nama and rupa, they become less attractive, and in that way detachment can grow. True calm is absence of defilements and as panna grows calm also grows, but panna is the leader, the forerunner. The development of panna leading to detachment is an endlessly long process. We should consider the four stages of enlightenment. The sotapanna has no more wrong view of self, but still clings to nama and rupa. The ariyan of the second stage, the once-returner, still clings, but his clinging has decreased. The ariyan of the third stage does not cling to sense objects anymore, but has other, more subtle forms of clinging. The arahat has eradicated all clinging. This is not only in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, it is also in the Suttanta. Another example that the three parts of the Tipitaka are one. When I, for example, read the "Kindred Sayings"(IV) , Kindred Sayings on Sense, it is stressed that the objects appearing one at a time through the six doors should be understood. In IV, 133, § 151, to what purpose? We read that the Buddha said, "It is for the full understanding of dukkha, friend, that the righteous life is lived under Gotama the recluse." When it is asked what this dukkha is, the answer is: the eye... objects.. eye-contact, etc. We should know the elements, the khandhas, the ayatanas. We should also know akusala as it is. Knowing, understanding, clear comprehension, that is what is emphasized, paga after page. Nina. 23415 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections, Equanimity, Qu. Dear Azita, I always appreciate it if people mention what is not clear. I can add a footnote. This passage could be read in two ways: op 13-07-2003 00:26 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: >> Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 6. >> --He thought of abandoning his possessions and becoming a monk, > but then he considered that, as a monk, his good qualities would > not be apparent so as to become praiseworthy. That was why the > Great Being who was averse from gain and honour did not enter the > state of monkhood.---- > > It seems like he did not become a monk because his good qualities > would not be apparent and therefore he would not be praiseworthy. > I can't imagine he wanted to be worthy of praise, but I'm not > really understanding this passage. It would make more sense to me if > it read ---his good qualities would be apparent so as to become > praiseworthy --- N: In the following par. A. Sujin explains: He practised the highest degree of upekkha in that life, even foregoing all the gains and honours that come with monkhood. Then that quality, of the highest upekkha would become manifest, shine for others. He would be praised because of upekkha, not because he was a monk. If he had become a monk it would not be so clear that he had the highest upekkha, because people could still think that he received gains that accrue to monkhood. Later on we read that he was a recluse at heart. Living as a recluse, but foregoing all honours of monkhood. Do you find this clearer or not yet? A: > Learning more about Metta has made life a little less stressful > for me personally. I don't need to 'battle' with the world out > there, I can be friendly instead. N: We still have problems, we need also upekkha. What if people we are kind to do not respond as we would like? It happens so often. If there is also upekkha at times, we can be evenminded about people's reactions. This is most difficult, I find. Panna is necessary too. We need to see ourselves and others as condiitoned realities. Nina. 23416 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:39am Subject: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 7 Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 7 We read further on in the Commentary: He thought, ³I shall accumulate the practice of supreme patience, enduring derisive speech from others. I shall develop the perfection of equanimity to the highest degree.² He left his home, dressed only in the clothing he was wearing; he practised the elimination of defilements to the utmost. When he was without strength, he behaved as if he had strength. Though not dumb, he behaved as if he was dumb, while he was ridiculed by others because of his appearance that seemed to be of a fool. He wandered in villages, cities and the capital,and he stayed in each place for only one night. Wherever he was much ridiculed, he stayed for a longer time. When his clothing became worn out and unsightly, he did not accept another piece of clothing from someone else; he wandered about with clothing that served only to cover the private parts.² While he wandered about in that way he came to a house in the village. This is the perfection of equanimity to the highest degree, which is most difficult to develop. He had many possessions, but he did not cling to them. He wanted to accumulate the perfection of equanimity: he endured derisive speech from others, and he went outside covered only by a piece of cloth. When he was without strength, he behaved as if he had strength, he was not downhearted and he had patience. Though not dumb, he behaved as someone who is dumb, he was not disturbed by anything. No matter what someone else said, no matter others ridiculed him because of his outward appearance which seemed to be of a fool, he was unaffected. We all have different accumulated inclinations. We are attached to our appearance, to our clothing, to words of approval and praise from others. We like to be dressed beautifully, but the Bodhisatta had in that life great endurance, he was unaffected when others jeered at the way he was dressed. Where he was much derided he stayed longer. Wandering about in that way he came to a house in a village. We read: There the children of that family were of a mischievous character, they were prone to violence and liked to beat other people. Some children were relatives or slaves of the royal household. They had a cruel, fierce character, they uttered sarcastic, coarse, insulting speech and they went about mocking all the time. When these children would see old, destitude people, they would take fine dust and scatter it all over their backs. They behaved in an improper, reproachable way, and they jeered at the people who were watching the scene. When the great Being saw those mischievous children going about in the village, he thought, ³Now I shall use a trick as a means of accumulating the perfection of equanimity, and therefore I shall stay in that place.² When those mischievous children saw the Great Being, they began to behave in an improper way. The Great Being stood up and pretended that he could not stand this any longer and that he was afraid of those children. When the children followed the Bodhisatta, he went to a cemetery, thinking, ³Here nobody will interfere with the conduct of those children.² He took a skeleton as a pillow to support him and he lay down [2]. Thereupon the children behaved in an improper way such as spitting upon him and then returned. Every day they behaved in this way. When wise people saw the children¹s behaviour, they forbid them to behave in that way, saying, ³This person has great powers, he is an ascetic, a great yoga practitioner.² Those wise people greatly praised and honoured the Bodhisatta. All Bodhisattas are evenminded and impartial, in every respect. The Buddha said, ³I slept in a cemetery, taking as a pillow the skeleton of a corpse. I had evenmindedness with regard to what is clean and what is dirty.² The village children behaved in many rude, improper ways, by spitting, jeering, defecating and urinating. They poked blades of grass into the Bodhisatta¹s ears and they were teasing and mocking as much as they liked. The Bodhisatta reflected: ³The village children caused me to suffer pain, whereas those wise people gave me enjoyable things, such as flowers, unguents and food. I have evenmindedness, I am the same to all, because I have equanimity. I am impartial, without excess, in all circumstances. I have no specific affection towards those who support me, nor do I speak angry words or have feelings of vengeance towards those who do not support me. Thus, I am impartial towards all people.² Footnote: 2. This story is referred to in M I, 79 (sutta 12). 23417 From: Andrew Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 5:16pm Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > KenH: The past no longer exists, the future has never existed, > so what is there to worry about? What can go wrong; what > harm can be done, if the entire world consists of the > empty, mental and physical phenomena of the present > moment? > > Of course, being uninstructed worldlings, we will cling > to concepts and there will be worry and depression but, > we are also Dhamma students: We have some understanding > of absolute reality and we know that, ultimately, there > are no 'worldlings' no 'Dhamma students' that suffer; > there is only the empty, impersonal dukkha itself." > ------------------------------ > Chris: > May I say that when I read the bit above, I found myself > saying "Aauggh! KenH - You're SUCH a boy!" i.e. this is a gender > related way of dealing with life. The idea that a complex problem > can be solved by giving the bare facts presupposes that > because something is fact, commonsense or reality - that anyone would > be grateful to be told this, and that causes their problem to > evaporate. :-) KenH - If someone regularly whacked you on the knee > cap with a ballpeen hammer and then told you not to mention it as no > harm can come to you, there is no ballpeen hammer, there is no 'knee' > there is no 'you', there is no pain, that the past is gone and the > future has not yet come - and all the time you are writhing on the > floor in agony because of the results of the past conditions, would > it seem to you that there was a slight gap between the theory and > your own experience? > ================================================================== Hi Chris and KenH Thanks for your amusing little exchange. Yes, KenH never tires of going back to the basics - maybe something to do with his rugby training? [when a team isn't playing well, the coach always tells the players to "concentrate on the basics"]. Maybe that's good advice, though. About the gap between theory and experience, I think a better metaphor is a person who goes to see a professional magician's show. When given the opportunity to understand how the tricks are performed, he replies "no, don't tell me. It will spoil the illusion." Isn't that the whole point? Buddha tells us that our thinking is clouded with illusion. If we want to see what is absolutely real and conventionally real, we have to be prepared to lay bare the illusion. When we do that - first of all by looking at it closely on an intellectual basis, it makes the illusion seem empty. Like a debunked magician's trick, it loses its mystery and its fun. Dhamma is a way of finding out what makes the illusion seem so real. Many people don't want to know. Lots like myself go through periods of time when we don't want to know. Metta, Andrew 23418 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Larry, Kusala citta with panna developing insight can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. Nina. op 13-07-2003 18:43 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: As to insight: So what is the object of joyful interest in insight practice? .... > Whatever the object is it has to > inspire joyful interest somehow. Any thoughts? 23419 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 10:03pm Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > >KEN: Of course, being uninstructed worldlings, we will cling > to concepts and there will be worry and depression but, > we are also Dhamma students: We have some understanding > of absolute reality and we know that, ultimately, there > are no 'worldlings' no 'Dhamma students' that suffer; > there is only the empty, impersonal dukkha itself." > ------------------------------ > Chris: > May I say that when I read the bit above, I found myself > saying "Aauggh! KenH - You're SUCH a boy!" i.e. this is a gender > related way of dealing with life. The idea that a complex problem > can be solved by giving the bare facts presupposes that > because something is fact, commonsense or reality - that anyone would > be grateful to be told this, and that causes their problem to > evaporate. :-) KenH - If someone regularly whacked you on the knee > cap with a ballpeen hammer and then told you not to mention it as no > harm can come to you, there is no ballpeen hammer, there is no 'knee' > there is no 'you', there is no pain, that the past is gone and the > future has not yet come - and all the time you are writhing on the > floor in agony because of the results of the past conditions, would > it seem to you that there was a slight gap between the theory and > your own experience? > ================================================================== Dear Christine, I listened to Khun Sujin reply to someone who had being talking about murder. She said: "There was no person, no gun, and no bullet" then she said words to the effect that we take murder as being worse than accidental death but both are the result of conditions. She said even when being shot and killed that panna can understand deeply in this way. Recently Dave said that ""It's one thing to be sitting in my room and going "hearing hearing" when the dog barks. It's another to be in my truck going "seeing seeing" when oncoming traffic approaches."" I am not sure what it means 'going "hearing hearing" or 'seeing seeing'', but for sure insight can arise when traffic approaches. Actually I find that it is often in hard circumstances when the elements of the Dhamma come together. It can happen almost instantly. I mentioned a while back how Ronald Graham, a well-known mathematician said "You can do mathematics anywhere. I once had a flash of insight into a problem in the middle of a back somersault with a triple twist on my trampoline ( in the "The man who Loved only Numbers"). And insight can come in faster than that because it doesn't need conceptualising to occur. Venerable Upasena, Sariputta's younger brother, was bitten by a snake. He asked the other monks to put him outside before he died. The monks commented that they saw no change in Upasena- in mind or body. This is because he didn't take citta for self, or body for self, or sankhara for self, or vedana or sanna. And there and then he died. RobertK Samyutta nikaya , Salayatana Vagga, Kindred Saying on Sense, Second Fifty, Ch 2, 69, Upasena): "Once the venerable Sariputta and the venerable Upasena were staying near Rajagaha in Cool Grove, at Snakeshood Grotto . Now at that time a snake had fallen on the venerable Upasena's body. Then the venerable Upasena called to the monks, saying: "Come here, friends, lift this body of mine on to a couch and take it outside before it be scattered here and now, just like a handful of chaff." At these words the venerable Sariputta said to the venerable Upasena: "But we see no change in the venerable Upasena body, no change for the worse in his faculties." Then the venerable Upasena repeated what he had said, adding: "Friend Sariputta, he who should think, I am the eye, the eye is mine, or I am the tongue, the tongue is mine, or I am the mind, the mind is mine,- in him there would be a change in his body, there would be a change for the worse in his faculties. But I, friend, have no such ideas. How then could there be any change in my body, any change for the worse in my faculties ?" Now the venerable Upasena had long since quelled the lurking tendencies that make for "I" and "mine". Therefore the venerable Upasena had no such ideas as, "I am the eye, the eye is mine," or "I am the tongue, the tongue is mine," or "I am the mind, the mind is mine." So those monks put the venerable Upasena body on a couch and bore it outside. And the venerable Upasena body there and then was scattered just like a handful of chaff. "" 23420 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 0:10am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence) -Hello James, You wrote: -------------- > I am afraid I would have to disagree. Many suttas from the Buddha state that we should seek that which is calm and harmonious and avoid that which is disharmonious; and we should actively, every moment actually, do this. > --------------- If a person is employed in a noisy, busy factory, he can still seek calm in the manner taught by the Buddha. At every moment of generosity, moral restraint or mental development, there is the mental factor, samatha -- which is true calm. ----------------- > According to you, this would only create disharmony. > ------------------- The Buddha's teaching (satipatthana), certainly doesn't create disharmony. The question is; what is the Buddha's teaching? -------------- > I think I understand where you are coming from: you see the seeking of harmony/happiness as being like a neurotic behavior > ------------ Yes, but only with reference to the kinds of seeking that were not taught by the Buddha. Everyone, even animals (to a degree), can find calm, in the sense that they are able to attain moments of detachment and harmlessness. How do they do it? All teachers, other than a Buddha, claim that they do it by exercising control. But there is no entity -- animal, human or god -- who has control. Mental states are not self; they arise and cease according to conditions. The Buddha taught those conditions. ----------------- > > The problem with Woody Allen in his movies, and the flower children of the 60s, and the New Agers of today, is that they seek happiness and yet they don't want to give up those things which are making them unhappy. > ---------------- But a lot of them try; a degree of asceticism is found in most cultures and sub-cultures. Whenever it is forced and unnatural, it is motivated by greed, anger and/or ignorance. --------------- > It is reasonable to seek happiness, much more reasonable that just 'waiting for it' (as you suggest), > -------------- I suggest that the Buddha taught patience. The wholesome mental factor known as patience, is different from unwholesome laziness and apathy. -------------- > as long as the person is willing to surrender most 'everything' (in their minds) to get there. > ------------- Again, the wholesome mental factor known as surrender (renunciation), is different from unwholesome aversion (wanting to be rid of something). --------------- > > Those things have to be abandoned to find happiness. How do you do that? If you don't have someone in your life, who you deeply respect, making you abandon them…you have to sit in deep contemplation/concentration until you don't care about them anymore...then push a bit further. > --------------- I think any action designed to bring about non-arisen states or eliminate existing states, involves attachment or aversion. The objective is to understand arisen states, not to control them. Kind regards, Ken 23421 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 0:56am Subject: catching -up Dear Friends, Just a brief note to say we’re back in Hong Kong and look forward to catching up on messages here, in between other less enjoyable catching up - unpacking, laundry and household chores, office work (Jon off the plane and into legal drafts already), piles of mail and so on.....I just tried taking a nap after the very early departure from Bangkok, but the heat is quite overwhelming, not to mention the drilling outside the window..... In great appreciation of all your wonderful posts we’ve read to date in our absence. I left my reading glasses on the plane to Zurich and as a result am appreciating being able to read without severe strain for the first time since departure. Jon patiently read posts out to me when he had a chance to get to a computer, but after being unable to read myself, I’m enjoying the chance to pick up papers, look at posts and open a book again. In between chores, brief naps and taking a peek at posts, I also find myself thinking about the cool and snow-capped peaks in Switzerland and my mother’s smiling face, even as she stumbled and injured her knee on the last day of hiking (her first ever hiking holiday at 75!). I’m reminded of Khun Sujin’s question to another friend on Saturday: “What is the present reality?”, whilst the friend also reflected on past experiences. And the answer usually at these times is attachment, as the clinging to past objects continues. Probably the reminders, yet again, of life existing at the present moment were of greatest immediate impact at the weekend. I’ll be a few days with all this catching up.... look f/w to speaking later when hopefully I’ll make a little more sense. Metta, Sarah ====== 23422 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 1:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] What next/Back again Jim and Nina (and All), Jim, thanks for this offer. That would make the exercise even more useful. Nina (and All), yesterday (Sunday) was Asalaha Puja day in Thailand which, as you know celebrates the giving of the first sermon by the Buddha, thereby setting in motion the wheel of the dhamma. It is 1 of the 3 highly revered days in the Buddhist calendar. At the Foundation in Bangkok, and many people came to spend the day, listen to talks and join in the discussion. Special arrangements were made to provide lunch for all. It was quite a spectacle with lots of people in splendid Thai silk and generally a happy atmosphere (many familiar faces from previous India trips etc). You would have enjoyed it. Before that, on Friday and Saturday afternoons, we had discussion at the foundation with A. Sujin and a number of the regular Bangkok crew including Sukin, Betty and Num, as well as Ivan and Ell, Saengchan and others. All, Sarah and I arrived back in Hong Kong this morning. The discussion on the list during our absence was lively and stimulating, and Sarah and I very much enjoyed our daily reading of the posts. Many thanks to all for the excellent contributions. I am writing this from my office on Monday afternoon, finding it no easy matter to switch my focus back to work matters again! Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Nina, > > I can easily supply the Pali text from the CSCD and make it > accessible > (temporarily) by uploading the section you've decided on studying > to > the files folder or send offlist. I can even include the relevant > section of the Maha Tika too if desired. > > Best wishes, > Jim 23423 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: catching -up Hello Sarah and Jon, Lovely to read you again, I hope the holiday has refreshed and revived you both. Sarah - what is it with you and your reading glasses? I seem to remember you having to get a pair made once in Thailand ... sativekalla? :-) Welcome back! metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > In great appreciation of all your wonderful posts we've read to date in > our absence. I left my reading glasses on the plane to Zurich and as a > result am appreciating being able to read without severe strain for the > first time since departure. Jon patiently read posts out to me when he had > a chance to get to a computer, but after being unable to read myself, I'm > enjoying the chance to pick up papers, look at posts and open a book > again. 23424 From: Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi, Robert - In a message dated 7/14/03 1:05:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > I listened to Khun Sujin reply to someone who had being talking > about murder. She said: "There was no person, no gun, and no > bullet" then she said words to the effect that we take murder as > being worse than accidental death but both are the result > of conditions. ============================== Robert, was there more that she said along these lines? As it stands, it sounds much like the "wrong view" of a school contemporary to the Buddha and roundly criticized by him. (Something had been said by a representative of that school to the effect that a sword killing a person was nothing more than solidity etc going through solidity.) What about intention? What about kamma? What about lovingkindness? What about morality? If an "ultimate" view involving paramattha dhammas pushes these others out, I would question such a view. If an "ultimate" view presents these others as "wrong" (which I don't believe right view does, because those freed by wisdom are the most loving and moral of all), I would abandon such an "ultimate" view. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23425 From: Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi, Ken (and James) - In a message dated 7/14/03 3:11:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > I suggest that the Buddha taught patience. The wholesome > mental factor known as patience, is different from > unwholesome laziness and apathy. > > =============================== Yes, of course he taught patience. He also taught urgency. There is, for example, the following taken from ATI: ************************* § 37. {Iti II.10; Iti 29} This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Endowed with two things, a monk lives in ease in the present life and is appropriately aroused for the ending of the fermentations. Which two? A sense of urgency & awe toward things that should inspire urgency & awe[1] and, feeling urgency & awe, appropriate exertion. Endowed with two things, a monk lives in ease in the present life and is appropriately aroused for the ending of the fermentations." > Feeling urgency, awe, > toward what should inspire it, > the wise, > masterful, > ardent monk > should investigate > with discernment. > One who lives thus ardently, > not restlessly, at peace, > committed to awareness-tranquillity > would attain the ending > of suffering & stress. Note: > 1. Urgency & awe = samvega. Other meanings for this term include shock, > dismay, & alienation. In the Pali Canon, this emotion is often accompanied by > fear and a sensed need to escape from overwhelming danger. The things that > should inspire urgency & awe are the first four of the five reflections listed in > AN V.57: "I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging. I am subject to > illness, have not gone beyond illness. I am subject to death, have not gone > beyond death. I will grow different, separate from all that is dear & > appealing to me." Appropriate exertion is indicated by the fifth reflection: "I am > the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related > through my actions, and have by actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good > or for evil, to that will I fall heir." [Go back] ****************************** With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23426 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)--Giving To vs. Giving Up Hi Ken, ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau To: Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:10 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) > Again, the wholesome mental factor known as surrender (renunciation), is different > from unwholesome aversion (wanting to be rid of something). This is also different from renunciation in order to gain something, usually tranquility accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling I think, motivated by desire for or attachment to pleasant or neutral feeling (as opposed to aversion to unpleasant feeling e.g.). "And even neutral feeling which as peaceful the Lord of Wisdom has proclaimed, if, in attachment, he should cling to it, he will not be free from the round of ill." Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.3 Pahana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn36-003.html "It is the happiness and gladness arising dependent on feelings that is the gratification in feelings. Feelings are impermanent, (liable to bring) pain, and are subject to change; this is the danger in feelings. The removal and the giving up of the desire and lust for feelings is the escape from feelings. Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.15 Santaka Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn36-015.html As I understand it, the renunciation (caaga?) that is the wholesome factor you refer to above always implies giving TO--not just giving up--especially not just 'giving up' something in order to get something else. For bhikkhus, the Buddha often spoke of the virtue of 'giving up' sense pleasures--not sure what the Paali is. This is different and refers to siila I think rather than daana as above. So it seems to me that this is a common point of confusion--'giving to' vs. 'giving up'. What do you think? mike p.s. Welcome back, Jon and Sarah! 23427 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Andrew, op 14-07-2003 02:16 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > Dhamma is a way > of finding out what makes the illusion seem so real. Many people > don't want to know. Lots like myself go through periods of time when > we don't want to know. N: Very good, Andrew. All the people, things, stories we find so important are only, only, nama and rupa. Life is like an empty fist, when we open our hand there is nothing there. A whole story is only one moment of thinking and then gone. But true, we do not like to see that there are only nama and rupa. We do not have to force ourselves not to enjoy life, but the moments of enjoyment are nama and can be realized as such. A lot is gained when in between enjoyment there are some moments of understanding the truth. Nina. 23428 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Time with A. Sujin. 5 Dear Kio, op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > are you saying > conditioned thinking is `always' bad, or at times bad? Any comment? N: My time with A. Sujin. 5. A. Sujin helped me to see what is akusala and what is kusala in the situation of daily life. She often said, the teachings are ³not in the book², they are directed to the practice of everyday life. Also the Abhidhamma is not technical, it helps us to have a more refined and detailed knowledge of different cittas as they occur at this moment. When I said that I had enjoyed reading a beautiful sutta, she answered, ²It is so sad when we only think of what is in the book, when we do not apply it.² I realized that we may cling to what we read instead of seeing it as a reminder to develop understanding. A. Sujin introduced me to her friends at her house, where they consulted books of the Tipitaka and discussed points of the Dhamma. She explained to me, ³All we study and discuss is not just for ourselves, it is to be shared with others.² This impressed me very much because I knew very little about sharing kusala with others. It had not occurred to me that even studying the teachings is not just for oneself. She would always help me to have more kusala cittas. When we were in a temple and we had things to offer to the monks she would hand the gifts and books to me, asking me to present them. I was glad to have the opportunity to pay respect to the Triple Gem and show my reverence to the monks. In fact she was helping others all the time to have kusala cittas. We visited Khun Kesinee who wanted to print my book ³Buddhism in Daily Life². Khun Kesinee said, ³Khun Sujin has given me life². This was so true, because she taught us all a new outlook on life, she taught us how right understanding can be developed in our ordinary daily life. She taught us to develop understanding of all phenomena of life in a natural way. Her daughter Khun Amara wrote ³The Lives and Psalms of the Buddha¹s Disciples², inspired by the Thera-therigatha². These are the stories of men and women in the Buddha¹s time who proved in their daily lives that the Path can be developed and enlightenment be attained. A. Sujin and I were very busy to correct the printing proofs of my book, sometimes at night. When we had not heard anything from the printer and I wondered about this, she just answered, ³No news.² This was a good lesson to leave things to conditions and not to expect anything. Later on I thought many times of these words. It is clinging when we expect things to be the way we like them to be. I was glad to meet many of her friends and take part in their life of giving and sharing. We went to temples together with A. Sujin, presenting dana, or attending cremation ceremonies. On Sunday I drove A. Sujin to the temple where she gave lectures on satipatthana and afterwards we sat outside the temple where people asked her more questions about awareness in daily life. Her lectures were put on tape for a radio program. In the course of years the radio stations which sent out her program expanded all over Thailand and to neighbouring countries. I accompanied A. Sujin to different places where people had invited her for a lecture. People were wondering whether there can be awareness of nama and rupa while driving a car. The answer was that it is just the same as being at home, it is normal life. Seeing, thinking or hardness appear time and again. When walking on the street we discussed seeing and thinking of concepts. There were holes in the pavement and if one would only be aware of colour and seeing but not think, one would fall into the holes. We learn that in the ultimate sense there are only nama and rupa, that there are no people, no things. This does not mean that we should not think of people and things. Also thinking of concepts is part of our daily life, we could not function without thinking of concepts. Thinking is a conditioned reality, it is nama, not self. We can think with different types of citta, some are kusala and many are akusala. In the development of satipatthana, we come to know our daily life just as it is. Nina. 23429 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 10:02am Subject: FW: Commentary mahaaraahulovaada sutta, A series Dear friends, Sarah asked me to frwd to dsg my Commentary posts. People who are also on Pali yahoo list will have to bear with me, to have doubles. I have put the English text at the end. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 06:47:03 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Commentary mahaaraahulovaada sutta, A series This A series will be reposted later on, in the B series, (where I start from the beginning) so that all sections are in the right order. I post this now as it explains and elaborates the sutta passages we are doing now. Commentary no 11 (A series): Relevant Sutta passage: ``pathaviisama.m, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti. Apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, Rahula, For, Rahula, agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen when you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, will not persistently overwhelm the mind. Commentary: words: idaanissa: idaani assa taadibhaava: the nature of suchness, highest qualification of the arahat (PED). taadibhaavalakkha.na: the characteristic of such. arajjati: he is not attached adussati: he has no aversion. lobhasahagatacittasampayuttaa: consciousness accompanied by attachment. sahagata: together with. sampayutta: accompanied by antomu.t.thi: clenched fist (anto: inside. mu.t.thi: fist) gahetva: from ga.nhati: seize, take hold of. pasanna: clear, bright (pasiidati). va.n.na: colour, appearance. punna: again Co: 119. idaanissa taadibhaavalakkha.na.m aacikkhanto pathaviisamantiaadimaaha. Now he said, when explaining the characteristic of such nature (of the highest qualification), ³like the earth² and so on. i.t.thaani.t.thesu hi arajjanto adussanto taadii naama hoti. not being attached nor having aversion with regard to the desirable and the undesirable is ³suchness². manaapaamanaapaati ettha a.t.tha lobhasahagatacittasampayuttaa manaapaa naama, with regard to the words agreeable and disagreeable, here the eight types of consciousness accompanied by attachment are agreeable, dve domanassacittasampayuttaa amanaapaa naama. and two types of consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling are disagreeable *. citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassantiiti ete phassaa uppajjitvaa With reference to the words, when these impressions have arisen, they do not persistently obsess the mind, tava citta.m antomu.t.thigata.m karonto viya and your mind makes just as it were a clenched fist, pariyaadaaya gahetvaa .thaatu.m na sakkhissanti, (these impressions that) overwhelm, when you have mastered them, they cannot stay. ``aha.m sobhaami,mayha.m va.n.naayatana.m pasanna''nti As regards the words, ³I am beautiful, my appearance is splendid², puna attabhaava.m nissaaya chandaraago nuppajjissati. again, attachment that is dependent on the body does not arise. guuthagatantiaadiisu guuthameva guuthagata.m. eva.m sabbattha. As to the expression, ordure and so on, it is truly excrement, filthy in all respects. English text: Now he said, when explaining the characteristic of such nature (of the highest qualification), ³like the earth² and so on. not being attached nor having aversion with regard to the desirable and the undesirable is ³suchness². with regard to the words agreeable and disagreeable, here the eight types of consciousness accompanied by attachment are agreeable, and two types of consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling are disagreeable *. With reference to the words, when these impressions have arisen, they do not persistently obsess the mind, and your mind makes just as it were a clenched fist, (these impressions that) overwhelm, when you have mastered them, they cannot stay. As regards the words, ³I am beautiful, my appearance is splendid², again, attachment that is dependent on the body does not arise. As to the expression, ordure and so on, it is truly excrement, filthy in all respects. * note: There are eight (a.t.tha) akusala cittas rooted in lobha: four with pleasant feeling, four with indifferent feeling, four with wrong view (di.t.thi), four without wrong view, four not induced or spontaneous(asa²nkhaarika) and four induced (sasa²nkhaarika) There are two akusala cittas rooted in dosa: domanassacittasampayuttaa: consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling (that is: citta rooted in aversion or hate). One of them is not induced(asa²nkhaarika) and one is induced (sasa²nkhaarika). Nina. 23430 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 11:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 7/14/03 1:05:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > > > I listened to Khun Sujin reply to someone who had being talking > > about murder. She said: "There was no person, no gun, and no > > bullet" then she said words to the effect that we take murder as > > being worse than accidental death but both are the result > > of conditions. > ============================== > Robert, was there more that she said along these lines? As it stands, > it sounds much like the "wrong view" of a school contemporary to the Buddha > and roundly criticized by him. (Something had been said by a representative of > that school to the effect that a sword killing a person was nothing more than > solidity etc going through solidity.) What about intention? What about kamma? > What about lovingkindness? What about morality? If an "ultimate" view involving > paramattha dhammas pushes these others out, I would question such a view. If > an "ultimate" view presents these others as "wrong" (which I don't believe > right view does, because those freed by wisdom are the most loving and moral of > all), I would abandon such an "ultimate" view. > ___________ Dear Howard, Thanks for asking this question. In Mahapunnama Sutta (majjhima Nikaya 109)the Buddha was explaining in various ways about anatta and how all phenomena are not self. Then a monk wondered about where kamma came into the picture. The Buddha knew his thoughts: "It is possible, bhikkhus, that some misguided man here, obtuse and ignorant, with his mind dominated by craving, might think that he can outstrip the Teacher's Dispensation thus: `So, it seems, material form is not self, feeling is not self, perception is not self, formations are not self consciousness is not self. What self, then, will actions done by the not-self affect?" The Buddha then said: "Now, bhikkhus, you have been trained by me in dependent (conditionality) in various instances." And the sutta continues to reinforce that all the khandhas are anatta. "seeing thus, a well taught noble disciple becomes disenchanted with material form..feeling..perception..formations..consciousness... ..now while this discourse was being spoken ..the minds of sixty bhikkhus were liberated from the taints" If there is really energy to investigate the present moment then one will be interested in any dhammas that arise - even while dying or being killed. If there is not this direct study there is likely to be hatred or anger towards the person who is killing. This can only happen if one is caught up in attachment to concept. By right view, understanding paramattha dhammas, one will know that the sutta where the Buddha told the monks that even if robbers should cut them up with a two-handed saw that if they had anger at this then at that time they were not follwing the teaching, is not only an ideal but is actually possible. Nina quoted the commentary to the Maharahula sutta where it says the Buddha had the same unlimited metta to Devadatta - who tried to kill him - as he did to his own son Rahula. Perhaps we hear this and resolve that we should be like that. But how? Not by trying with the idea of "me" who should be good or wise but by an entirely different effort, a profound letting go of the idea of self. Robertk 23431 From: Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 3:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Nina, The proximate cause of concentration is piti (joyful interest). Joyful interest comes first, then concentration, then insight. Piti isn't categorized under feeling. Maybe the idea of kusala could inspire piti. What do you think? Larry ------------------ Nina: Hi Larry, Kusala citta with panna developing insight can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. Nina. op 13-07-2003 18:43 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: As to insight: So what is the object of joyful interest in insight practice? .... Whatever the object is it has to inspire joyful interest somehow. Any thoughts? 23432 From: Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 3:59pm Subject: what next Hi Jon and Jim, I don't know how this file on Visuddhimagga and commentary would work but we need to make sure Nina knows how to use it. It's going to be about 10 more days before I'm ready to go. Harry is having a hell of a time. It's really distressing. ~:-0 Larry 23433 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Dear Howard, I perfectly understand what you mean. We can read such lines the wrong way. No, she meant something else. From the point of view of the receiver of such pain, it is the same whether there is a bullet or another cause of his death. Here she did not speak of the person who kills, thus, of the other side. Who kills commits kamma and he will receive the result of his deed. Nina. op 14-07-2003 14:23 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Robert, was there more that she said along these lines? As it stands, > it sounds much like the "wrong view" of a school contemporary to the Buddha > and roundly criticized by him. (Something had been said by a representative of > that school to the effect that a sword killing a person was nothing more than > solidity etc going through solidity.) What about intention? What about kamma? > What about lovingkindness? What about morality? 23434 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Howard, I love that text, it was once posted in Pali by one of our teachers. op 14-07-2003 14:34 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > : "I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging. I am subject to >> illness, have not gone beyond illness. I am subject to death, have not gone >> beyond death. I will grow different, separate from all that is dear & >> appealing to me." Appropriate exertion is indicated by the fifth reflection: >> "I am >> the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related >> through my actions, and have by actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for >> good >> or for evil, to that will I fall heir." 23435 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 11:55pm Subject: Blame it on Jackie Chan;-) Hi Christine, (Larry, Kom & James at the end), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah and Jon, > > Lovely to read you again, I hope the holiday has refreshed and > revived you both. .... Thanks for your kind words and let me also join the welcomes to any new members who’ve joined or posted while we’ve been away (or old members returning to post after taking a break;-)) .... >arah - what is it with you and your reading > glasses? I seem to remember you having to get a pair made once in > Thailand ... sativekalla? :-) Welcome back! .... hmmm....Chris, you weren’t meant to point that out:-) I must confess that this was the pair made up in record time for just a few dollars on the beach at Koh Samui-- which I'd become quite attached to -- when I left the other pair at home. Unfortunately, Swiss mountain villages don’t share the same business acumen of Thai beaches and told me I’d have to take a 90 minute train ride back down to the nearest large town to get prescribed glasses at great expense. Actually, I blame it all on Jackie Chan. There I was quietly reading an installment of Perfections in the middle of a long night flight, having got a little behind with my reading before the trip, when Jackie distracted me with an amazing umbrella kung fu sequence on the big screen. Having decided at the beginning of the flight -- as usual -- that I’d just be sleeping and reading dhamma, I started rummaging around -- as usual -- for Jon’s headphones so that I could continue reading, watching the movie and taking the odd refreshment all at the same time. I accept that with the combination of such distractable accumulations, middle-age and night-time flights, that it’s time for a chain on my reading glasses at the very least. Now if only it were so simple as a few good intentions to just quietly read.... On return to Zurich airport at the end of the trip, looking through the full drawer of other lost glasses for the week, I drew some consolation from the others suffering from the same affliction. But that didn’t seem very kind or compassionate on my part.... Actually it was a great break from my usual habits in all regards and my eyes were given a great rest too. I thought about your qu about helping mothers with the dhamma while I mostly avoided any controversial issues with my own for the holiday, (but must admit I was more than a tad impatient at times;-( ). My mother’s also very religious (Anglican) in her own way, was the daughter of a clergyman, reads the early lesson at Church which she attends very regularly, arranges the flowers at the nearby Cathedral, works voluntarily in the local cancer hospice and so on, but avoids any discussion. We showed her you 'gratitude post' and the answer was simple: a prayer of gratitude to God. End of discussion. However, she’s had 30 years to get used to having a ‘Buddhist daughter’ and tells me that unlike the early days, her friends now think it’s wonderful and she tells them it has very good effects. When I was young our relationship was never easy, but we have great mutual respect now for each other’s way of life and when she told us that this was possibly the best holiday she’d ever had in her life, it was a truly great gift. I’d mention small points or gentle encouragement of generosity or tolerance for example, but I’ve learnt not to ‘push’ any agenda. Over 20 years ago, my mother had K.Sujin (and her late father) to stay in her house and appreciated K.Sujin’s presence, but she’d prepare beautiful English teas whilst avoiding the sessions arranged for discussing the Dhamma. K.Sujin would then wander round the garden with her learning about the flowers or help with the wasing-up, taking an interest in Sussex life, appreciating my mother’s hospitality, but not pursuing dhamma. I mentioned your qu in Bangkok as well at the weekend and K.Sujin’s reply was like Ven Yanatharo’s helpful comments. She simply said “Right person at the right place and the right time”. In other words, it’s not kind or useful to talk dhamma to those who don’t wish or are ready to hear. Betty and others pointed out that the same is true with spouses, other family members and friends too. Again, I think the only difficulty is the present attachment. Metta and glad to be back. Sarah p.s So glad to hear your Pali studies are going so well. Is sativekalla a new kind of Russian soup?:-) Larry, whilst reading Perfections, watching Jackie and losing glasses, I also managed to do some informal research on a neighbour reading the latest Harry. She just finished the book by the time we landed - so that’s what it takes -- just one flight from Bangkok to Zurich to speed up your installments of Vism:-) Kom & James, enjoyed your discussion. We saw many goats playfully locking horns in Switzerland - I think we can all appreciate how much we share here in terms of appreciation and reflection/practice of the Buddha's teachings and seeing the value in discussion at all. Hopefully you'll find a way to 'unlock' and carry on for all our sakes;-) ====================================== 23436 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 0:26am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Christine, You wrote: ------------ > I wonder if people with different world views can ever really understand each other? Maybe next time just say: "Yeah things are crook mate - doesn't seem very much point in anything somedays - maybe it's all sent to teach us lessons - I dunno - here, chuck these snags on the barbie will ya?" :-) ------------- You're right, -- stick with tradition. :-) Even so, I wonder if the few seconds of 'quality time' I had with my friends, may have sown a few seeds. Their wanting to change the subject almost immediately was not necessarily a bad sign. Perhaps there was enough kusala listening, for them to momentarily glimpse the emptiness of existence. Aversion could reasonably be expected to follow soon after(self perception doesn't approve of right understanding). --------------- >> KenH: "Is there any point in dwelling on the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and soullessness of concepts -- things that aren't even real? I think it can only be depressing. On the other hand, dwelling on the anicca, dukkha and anatta of paramattha dhammas is uplifting, inspiring, liberating! >> > Chris: What about 'no control'? Don't thoughts arise unbidden? Are you now saying I CAN direct my mind? :-) > ---------------- I get caught out with this all the time. Thanks for the reminder -- just as I was getting into the evangelistic swing of things. Would it have been more accurate to have said that Dhamma study can act as a conditioning factor for pleasant feelings and right understanding? -------------- > The idea that a complex problem can be solved by giving the bare facts presupposes that because something is fact, commonsense or reality - that anyone would be grateful to be told this, and that causes their problem to evaporate. :-) > ------------------- It's easy to get 'back to basics' when solving other people's problems. I prefer the 'tea and sympathy' approach for my own. ----------------- > If someone regularly whacked you on the kneecap with a ballpeen hammer and then told you not to mention it as no harm can come to you, there is no ballpeen hammer, there is no 'knee' there is no 'you', would it seem to you that there was a slight gap between the theory and your own experience? > ---------------- I'd be too busy screaming to give it a second thought. But we won't need to perform that experiment; the theory has already been proved by Venerable Upasena (as seen in Robert's reply). Kind regards, Ken H 23437 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Commentary mahaaraahulovaada sutta, A series Dear Nina, I’ve been appreciating all your posts to everyone. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Commentary no 11 (A series): > > Relevant Sutta passage: > > ``pathaviisama.m, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. pathaviisama~nhi te, > raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa citta.m > na > pariyaadaaya .thassanti. > Apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, Rahula, > For, Rahula, agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen > when > you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, > will > not persistently overwhelm the mind. ...... Such good reminders always. Of course, no self to ‘do’ anything, but appreciating how panna can only develop with detachment to whatever arises now is the only way that it can grow. Like the earth accepts the dust, dirt and excrement without being affected or overwhelmed. .... > Co: 119. > English text: > As regards the words, 3I am beautiful, my appearance is splendid2, > again, attachment that is dependent on the body does not arise. > As to the expression, ordure and so on, it is truly excrement, filthy in > all > respects. .... I note ordure is another word for dung (I wasn’t familiar with it). Rahula could really appreciate these words - how the body is like excrement, ‘filthy in all respects’. For me, it’s difficult to even reflect on these lines with equanimity and no aversion. Any understanding is so very superficial, even though I appreciate the lines and reminders. K. Sujin was stressing that if there isn’t enough detachment to understand and be aware of present namas and rupas appearing, there cannot possibly be the developed detachment which makes possible the deeper wisdom which knows the arising and passing away of realities and understanding of khandhas. (I’ll try to add more later when I’ve considered more - I raised one of your qus which you'd asked Jon to raise some time back on 'groups'). With metta, Sarah ====== 23438 From: Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 11:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/15/03 12:13:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Howard, > I perfectly understand what you mean. We can read such lines the wrong way. > No, she meant something else. From the point of view of the receiver of such > pain, it is the same whether there is a bullet or another cause of his > death. Here she did not speak of the person who kills, thus, of the other > side. Who kills commits kamma and he will receive the result of his deed. > Nina. > > op 14-07-2003 14:23 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Robert, was there more that she said along these lines? As it stands, > >it sounds much like the "wrong view" of a school contemporary to the Buddha > >and roundly criticized by him. (Something had been said by a representative > of > >that school to the effect that a sword killing a person was nothing more > than > >solidity etc going through solidity.) What about intention? What about > kamma? > >What about lovingkindness? What about morality? > > ============================= Thank you, Nina. That fully clarifies the matter and answers my question with complete satisfaction. I'm so pleased that this is what was meant. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23439 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:34am Subject: Re: Blame it on Jackie Chan;-) Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: < snip > My mother's also very religious (Anglican) in her own way, was the daughter of a clergyman, reads the early lesson at Church which she attends very regularly, arranges the flowers at the nearby Cathedral, works voluntarily in the local cancer hospice and so on, but avoids any discussion. We showed her you 'gratitude post' and the answer was simple: a prayer of gratitude to God. End of discussion. However, she's had 30 years to get used to having a `Buddhist daughter' and tells me that unlike the early days, her friends now think it's wonderful and she tells them it has very good effects. KKT: Reading this reminds me of something I've just read some days ago: My son, the Missionary http://www.davidgodman.org/interviews/missionary.shtml The difference is that David Godman practises Hinduism :-)) Peace, KKT 23440 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:11am Subject: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 8 Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 8 The Bodhisatta was unshakable and impartial, having no attachment to people who gave him pleasant things, such as flowers, unguents and food, and having no anger towards those who disturbed him and made him suffer. We read: At that time the Buddha taught impartiality, not exceeding what is normal, not clinging to the vicissitudes of life. He was equipped with the requisite of enlightenment that is wisdom and hence he was impartial towards all beings, to those who supported him as well as those who did not. He finally said: ²I am evenminded towards happiness and misery, towards honour and dishonour, I am impartial towards everything, and this is my perfection of equanimity.² The perfection of equanimity is evenmindedness, being without happiness and anguish, like a scale that is well-balanced. The Buddha showed that he was impartial to all beings and to all vicissitudes of life, and this degree of equanimity is not common to other people. We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct²: The Bodhisatta developed all ten perfections. Beginning with generosity, he gave away all his possesions and his own body, without concern over whatever others wanted to do with it. That is the perfection of generosity. He abstained from whatever was improper and wrong, and that is the perfection of morality. He developed the perception of the foulness of his body, he abandoned attachment to sense pleasures, he left his home for the homeless life, and that is the perfection of renunciation. He was skilled in the discerning of the dhammas which are a support for the requisites of enlighhtenment and skilled in the abandoning of the dhammas opposed to those requisites. He was skilled in considering the specific nature of the beneficial dhammas, discriminating them from the wrong dhammas, and this is the perfection of paññå. The disenchantment with sense pleasures and the endeavour to endure suffering is the perfection of energy. Endurance and forbearance are the perfection of patience. Truthfulness in speech and in the practice of abstention from what is wrong is the perfection of truthfulness. The firm, unshakable practice of what is right is the perfection of determination. Loving-kindness and affection for all beings without being selective is the perfection of loving-kindness. As regards the perfection of equanimity of the Bodhisatta, this has just been explained above. In the ³Conduct of Equanimity² of the ³Basket of Conduct², the perfection of equanimity to the highest degree has been dealt with in order to proclaim the benefit and the power of the excellent qualities of the Bodhisatta. He gave up his his wealth, his circle of relatives, and he left his home, in the same way as someone who enters the state of monkhood, although he did not become a monk. He lived in the same way as a monk. The Bodhisatta did not cling to the state of monkhood, he was averse to favours and praise that accrue to the monk. The monk has to take into consideration the reverence that people show him, and he wishes for all the excellent things that come with monkhood. The Bodhisatta was just a monk at heart, he had the mentality of a monk, and in this way he lived in utmost happiness. 23441 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Larry, op 15-07-2003 00:21 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > The proximate cause of concentration is piti (joyful interest). Joyful > interest comes first, then concentration, then insight. Piti isn't > categorized under feeling. Maybe the idea of kusala could inspire piti. > What do you think? N: I think that attachment plays us tricks all the time. When there is piti (in the case of cittas of the sense sphere) there is also pleasant feeling. When there is pleasant feeling and piti: beware, because most of the time there is lobha, with or without wrong view. We may cling to our interest and joy. You write: I do not see a specific order in the texts. Intellectual understanding, pondering over the Dhamma are conditions for the gradual building up of direct understanding. Awareness of one reality at a time that appears now is not a matter of concentration. When we read about proximate cause, it does not mean that this has to be before the reality it is proximate cause of, it can well be at the same time. We should not mind what kind of feeling arises, understanding reality and detachment is the goal. Nina. P.S. Are you going on a tour? Have a nice time. 23442 From: Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 3:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Nina, Dangerous or not, I think there has to be piti in order for there to be insight, just as there has to be sati. The question is, what is the object of piti. Presumably, the arising of dukkha for a path wise bhikkhu would cue the arising of joyful interest. Why? Larry 23443 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:52pm Subject: Burma itinerary, finally Dear Friends, For those of you who might be interested in joining Than Achaan Sujin and members of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation for what we hope will be a worthwhile and memorable trip to Burma, including lots of time for Dhamma discussions and a presentation of food to monks, the following information is given. The trip will go from October 20 (meet at Don Muang Airport 6am) - Oct 24 (arrival at Don Muang 18:40-6:40pm) and will cost Baht 27,500 per person, for double room occupancy or Baht 31,900 for single room occupancy. You will need to make your own arrangements to and from Bangkok, as well as hotel accomodations before and after the dates of the trip. If you would like a copy of the itinerary, please send me an e-mail at my private email address below and I will send it to you as an attachment to your private email address, which you will need to provide as well. metta, Betty _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 e-mail: beyugala@k... 23444 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)--Giving To vs. Giving Up Hi Mike, > > > As I understand it, the renunciation (caaga?) that is the wholesome factor > you refer to above always implies giving TO--not just giving up-- especially > not just 'giving up' something in order to get something else. > > For bhikkhus, the Buddha often spoke of the virtue of 'giving up' sense > pleasures--not sure what the Paali is. This is different and refers to > siila I think rather than daana as above. So it seems to me that this is a > common point of confusion--'giving to' vs. 'giving up'. What do you think? > I'm not sure what to think. Could renunciation (nekkhamma), simply be wholesome consciousness and could the difference between dana, sila and renunciation depend purely on the surrounding circumstances? From THE PERFECTIONS LEADING TO ENLIGHTENMENT (by Nina): "Renunciation has the characteristic of departing from sense pleasures and existence; its function is to verify the unsatisfactoriness they involve; its manifestation is the withdrawal from them; a sense of spiritual urgency is its proximate cause." It seems to me that the above definition could apply to any consciousness that has kusala [or right] thought. So, could it be that kusala consciousness with root cause, is called dana whenever there is a valued object and a living-being it can be given to; sila, where there is a living being who can be helped [or left unharmed]; and renunciation, where there is a possession (material or mental), that can be either put aside or forgone? That's all I can suggest so far; I need to do a lot more reading. Kind regards, Ken 23445 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Blame it on Jackie Chan;-) Hi KKT, --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > KKT: Reading this reminds me > of something I've just read > some days ago: > > My son, the Missionary > > http://www.davidgodman.org/interviews/missionary.shtml > > The difference is that > David Godman practises Hinduism :-)) ..... Thank for this -- I enjoyed the article very much, even if he practises Hinduism :-)) Sometime I must ask my mother what gloss she put on her only daughter’s trip to India all those years ago, when I was last seen heading East on the back of a motor-bike in hippie garb, just occasionally sending aerogrammes from a tea-stall in Afghanistan, a Tibetan tent in Bodh Gaya, a forest temple in Sri Lanka or a mountain room full of hepatitis sufferers in Nepal. I think I became an ‘Explorer’. Like the Missionary son, I doubt the Buddhist parts got much of a mention and were always ignored in the replies;-) Only now do I really appreciate the great encouragement and lack of concern or worry she’s always expressed for anything I’ve ever undertaken in life. Quite unusual, I think for a mother. So, KKT, I see you’re reading widely as usual. What are your latest reflections on current topics such as this one of helping parents? Always appreciate your comments. Metta, Sarah ======= 23446 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Ken H, Appreciating all your gems. This was a good one: --- kenhowardau wrote: > > It's easy to get 'back to basics' when solving other > people's problems. I prefer the 'tea and sympathy' > approach for my own. .... ;-) Even for those of us who’ve read and considered the Dhamma quite a bit, there are ‘right place’ and ‘right time’ factors to be considered..... ..... > I'd be too busy screaming to give it a second thought. > But we won't need to perform that experiment; the theory > has already been proved by Venerable Upasena (as seen in > Robert's reply). ..... ;-) I think Christine’s point is the one Erik used to make so eloquently which doesn’t mean we cannot be inspired by Ven Upasena. I particularly appreciated this summary you wrote in a post to James: Ken H:“I think any action designed to bring about non-arisen states or eliminate existing states, involves attachment or aversion. The objective is to understand arisen states, not to control them”. Thanks to James as well for encouraging everyone to reflect and respond further. Keep it up! Metta, Sarah p.s another good one, maybe to Howard: Ken H: “The fact of no-self makes a mockery of everything we say, do and aspire to, in conventional, worldly life. Whether we think we are surfers or meditators, we are quite mad” ;-) even good Buddhists as Mike would point out. ====== 23447 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi RobK, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > ..... but for sure insight can arise when traffic approaches. > Actually I find that it is often in hard circumstances when the > elements of the Dhamma come together. It can happen almost > instantly. > I mentioned a while back how Ronald Graham, a > well-known mathematician said "You can do mathematics anywhere. I > once had a flash of insight into a problem in the middle of a back > somersault with a triple twist on my trampoline ( in the "The man > who Loved only Numbers"). And insight can come in faster than that > because it doesn't need conceptualising to occur. ..... I like this example very much (I meant to comment when you mentioned it before, so I’m glad you repeated it). The ideas of single, focussed attention and slow movement are very ingrained, but don’t take account of our various accumulations and tendencies for wrong views and desires for particular results. Even if one were performing the triple twisted somersault and be distracted and fall as a result, it would not preclude any opportunity for sati and insight (panna) to arise. If one were to suggest otherwise, I think it would again be an example of the attachment or aversion Ken H referred to for bringing about non-arisen states or eliminating existing ones, rather than, like Ven Upasena, developing detachment from presently arising elements. Thanks for the sutta and helpful comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 23448 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from a new (old!) member Hi, Clyde and Howard, Welcome Clyde from me as well. We have older members, rest assured! H:> Thanks for writing, Clyde. I look forward to many interesting > conversations with you. As for suggestions, please feel welcome to > contact me on list > or off about whatever you wish. ..... Please keep sharing your suggestions and conversations with us all here;-) As always, appreciating your comments and sutta references, Howard. Metta, Sarah ====== 23449 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 3:09am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Ken H, > I particularly appreciated this summary you wrote in a post to James: > > Ken H:"I think any action designed to bring about non-arisen states or > eliminate existing states, involves attachment or aversion. The objective > is to understand arisen states, not to control them". > > Thanks to James as well for encouraging everyone to reflect and respond > further. Keep it up! Hi Sarah, LOL! Do you really see that? I don't see that at all. If being a target is considered encouraging reflection and response, I guess I do fit that role well. I understand that you are trying to be encouraging, which is very sweet, but I am getting more than a little fed up with the members of this group who believe they know everything about everything. People should consider how close they are to enlightenment as a testament to what they know, not how pithy they are in responding to posts. Metta, James 23450 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > LOL! Do you really see that? I don't see that at all. If being a > target is considered encouraging reflection and response, I guess I > do fit that role well. ..... LOL here too! I can’t speak for others, but I know for myself that when someone persuasively presents another point of view from a reading of the same suttas -- as you often do -- and one tries to respond according to what one understands (and using a minimum of Pali;-)), that these are often the times one learns most and sees the weaknesses in this understanding. ..... >I understand that you are trying to be > encouraging, which is very sweet, .... and sincerely meant... .... >but I am getting more than a little > fed up with the members of this group who believe they know > everything about everything. People should consider how close they > are to enlightenment as a testament to what they know, not how pithy > they are in responding to posts. .... Hey James, you’d get a lot more fed up if they weren’t ‘pithy’ in responses and if they started every line with “I may be wrong and I’m not close to enlightenment so don’t think I know everything or anything much about anything, but if you would kindly listen in and let me reflect out loud.....and so on ad nauseum". We all know this is a discussion group and we’re just giving comments according to our present understanding which can be questioned and challenged at any time. Without contrary and controversial views, it would be the end of discussion. Hope you’re having a good summer and good to see you around. Metta, Sarah ====== 23451 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 3:54am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > LOL! Do you really see that? I don't see that at all. If being a > > target is considered encouraging reflection and response, I guess I > > do fit that role well. > ..... > LOL here too! I can't speak for others, but I know for myself that when > someone persuasively presents another point of view from a reading of the > same suttas -- as you often do -- and one tries to respond according to > what one understands (and using a minimum of Pali;-)), that these are > often the times one learns most and sees the weaknesses in this > understanding. > Hi Sarah, Yea, I guess you are right. And I wasn't referring to you. I guess you were gone a little too long and it seemed to me that things started to get a little ugly around here ;-). Metta, James 23452 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi James. --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Yea, I guess you are right. And I wasn't referring to you. I guess > you were gone a little too long and it seemed to me that things > started to get a little ugly around here ;-). ..... Things looked particularly pretty here to me and I was thinking I might go away for longer next time ;-) thanks James for the welcome back -- much appreciated. Metta, Sarah ======= 23453 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)--Giving To vs. Giving Up Hi Ken, ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau To: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:58 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)--Giving To vs. Giving Up > I'm not sure what to think. Could renunciation (nekkhamma), > simply be wholesome consciousness and could the difference > between dana, sila and renunciation depend purely on the > surrounding circumstances? Interesting idea-- > From THE PERFECTIONS LEADING TO ENLIGHTENMENT (by Nina): > > "Renunciation has the characteristic of departing from > sense pleasures and existence; its function is to verify > the unsatisfactoriness they involve; its manifestation is > the withdrawal from them; a sense of spiritual urgency is > its proximate cause." This has the ring of 'pabbajjaa' to me which, as you know, means 'going forth' (to be a bhikkhu) but also has the meaning of 'renunciation'. Going forth seems to me to partake of siila for sure (taking precepts) and maybe bhaavanaa (as a part of the monastic routine?) but not necessarily of daana? > It seems to me that the above definition could apply to > any consciousness that has kusala [or right] thought. It does seem to me that it (nekkhamma) might be conditioned by right thought. A right thought might be one of the three but not the other two, I think (of daana, siila and bhaavanaa). > So, could it be that kusala consciousness with root > cause, is called dana whenever there is a valued object > and a living-being it can be given to; sila, where there > is a living being who can be helped [or left unharmed]; > and renunciation, where there is a possession (material > or mental), that can be either put aside or forgone? This does seem to sum up the differences, though again I think the third is iffy. What started this train of thought is the idea in some schools of Zen etc. that if 'one lets go' of ignorance, aversion and desire that wisdom, compassion and purity are already present as characteristics of 'Buddha-nature', 'original mind' and so on. So this kind of 'letting go' takes on a unique virtue, i.e. leading directly to 'enlightenment'. Interesting (and attractive!) as I find this proposition, I think it's contrary to the Buddhadhamma as expressed in the Paali texts. So it's the idea of 'letting go' in this sense that I'm wary of. > That's all I can suggest so far; I need to do a lot more > reading. So do I--I'm sure the answer's there somewhere in the commentaries--maybe one of our scholars can unearth it. Thanks for the interesting discussion. mike 23454 From: Charles Thompson Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Burma itinerary, finally Hello, May I add this, your e-mail, to a MSN Theravadan forum I moderate? Please advise. Thank you. metta (maitri), Chuck Thompson ----- Original Message ----- From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala To: dhamma study group Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:52 PM Subject: [dsg] Burma itinerary, finally Dear Friends, For those of you who might be interested in joining Than Achaan Sujin and members of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation for what we hope will be a worthwhile and memorable trip to Burma, including lots of time for Dhamma discussions and a presentation of food to monks, the following information is given. The trip will go from October 20 (meet at Don Muang Airport 6am) - Oct 24 (arrival at Don Muang 18:40-6:40pm) and will cost Baht 27,500 per person, for double room occupancy or Baht 31,900 for single room occupancy. You will need to make your own arrangements to and from Bangkok, as well as hotel accomodations before and after the dates of the trip. If you would like a copy of the itinerary, please send me an e-mail at my private email address below and I will send it to you as an attachment to your private email address, which you will need to provide as well. metta, Betty _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 e-mail: beyugala@k... 23455 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Larry, op 16-07-2003 00:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Dangerous or not, I think there has to be piti in order for there to be > insight, just as there has to be sati. N: Of the eight types of kusala citta four are accompanied by panna, four by pleasant feeling, four by indifferent feeling. Thus, two kusala cittas accompanied by panna have pleasant feeling, two have indifferent feeling. Only those with pleasant feeling are accompanied by piti. Very strange if one can only develop insight with pleasant feeling and piti. Do you have a textual reference for this? Nobody can cause the arising of somanassa and piti at will. Nina. 23456 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 0:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Howard and all, Worldly dhamma is impermanent, dukkha/unsatisfactory, not self, whether one is uprooted of greed, aversion, and delusion or not. When one is uprooted of effluents, he or she is freed from the round of rebirth. He or she knows that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' However, the conditioned, the worldly dhamma is still impermanent. It is still unsatisfactory/dukkha. It is still not self. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken (and Christine) - [snip] > Howard: > You mention clinging, Ken. I think this is key. Christine, you have > pointed to impermanance as primary in causing suffering and even considered > identifying suffering with impermanence. I think the former is correct, but the > latter is not quite correct. Impermanence and conditionality are just that. In > and of themselves, there is nothing wrong with them. But together with the > ignorance that (unconsciously) takes the impermanent to be permanent and > conditioned to be self-existent, and the craving for and attachment to what does not > remain and is not self-sufficient, there arises suffering. When ignorance, > craving, and aversion have been uprooted, still all worldly dhammas will be > impermanent and conditioned, but no suffering will arise from that. From ATI, there > is the following: > ***************************************** > The definition > > > > "And this, monks is the noble truth of the origination of dukkha: the > > craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, > > relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for > > becoming, craving for non-becoming." > > >> -- SN LVI.11 [snip] > With metta, > Howard 23457 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Ken, When you said that there is no control, do you mean that one can not make the conditioned permanent, satisfactory, self? Do you mean that one can refrain and control self from unwholesome action in body, speech, and mind? Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Howard, [snip] > There is simply no control :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken 23458 From: Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi, Sarah (and Ken, and James) = In a message dated 7/16/03 3:31:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > I particularly appreciated this summary you wrote in a post to James: > > Ken H:“I think any action designed to bring about non-arisen states or > eliminate existing states, involves attachment or aversion. The objective > is to understand arisen states, not to control themâ€?. > > ============================ Yes, this is well put. However, I have a couple comments that go somewhat in the opposite direction: 1) We start where we are, not where we would hope to be. If there were no desire to eliminate suffering, it would never be eliminated. If we had to be free of craving, aversion, and attachment to begin to divest ourselves of these, no one, ever, would attain enlightenment. 2) The understanding of arisen states, particularly seeing the tilakkhana in them, is the primary means to achieve liberation. 3) The Buddha recommended guarding the senses, which is a process of control over reactions, and it requires volitional effort. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23459 From: Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 3:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Nina, My only textual reference is that piti is listed as the proximate cause of concentration and concentration is listed as the proximate cause of panna (understanding). How could it be otherwise? Larry -------------------- Nina: Dear Larry, op 16-07-2003 00:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Dangerous or not, I think there has to be piti in order for there to be insight, just as there has to be sati. N: Of the eight types of kusala citta four are accompanied by panna, four by pleasant feeling, four by indifferent feeling. Thus, two kusala cittas accompanied by panna have pleasant feeling, two have indifferent feeling. Only those with pleasant feeling are accompanied by piti. Very strange if one can only develop insight with pleasant feeling and piti. Do you have a textual reference for this? Nobody can cause the arising of somanassa and piti at will. Nina. L: Who is"nobody"? 23460 From: Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Nina, One more point. Piti (joyful interest) is one of the 7 enlightenment factors (bojjhanga). The others are: sati (mindfulness), invesigation of dhamma, energy, tranquility, concentration, equanimity. "Because they lead to enlightenment, therefore they are called enlightenment factors" (S XLVI, 5). Larry 23461 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Howard, Glad to chat with you again -- --- upasaka@a... wrote: H: > ..... However, I have a couple comments that go > somewhat in the opposite direction: > 1) We start where we are, not where we would hope to be. If there > were > no desire to eliminate suffering, it would never be eliminated. If we > had to > be free of craving, aversion, and attachment to begin to divest > ourselves of > these, no one, ever, would attain enlightenment. ..... S: I’m not sure I can add anything helpful to Ken H’s comments, but I’ll try -- a) I agree with the ‘we start where we are.....’. Of course in paramattha terms, this means simply that namas and rupas are as conditioned at this moment. b) I don’t agree that the elimination of suffering depends on desire but that it is eliminated in spite of the deep-rooted desire which has to be thoroughly known and thereby eradicated. (purima tanha or pre-craving which conditions bhava is another point). Remember the sutta about the chicks hatching and so on, with right conditions and regardless of wishing.... c) I’m sure there’s no suggestion by anyone here that we have to be ‘free of craving, aversion, and attachment to begin....’. As you say, if this were so, there’d be no enlightenment. There wouldn’t even be a start on the path. Of course, as you know well, even at the outset there truly is no self to divest of anything. Only an illusion that this is so. ..... H: > 2) The understanding of arisen states, particularly seeing the > tilakkhana in them, is the primary means to achieve liberation. ..... S: a) Agreed with the proviso that understanding has to gradually develop, penetrating the ‘nature’ and characteristics of arisen states deeper and more and more precisely with detachment. b) As discussed, the tilakkhana are only penetrated when the earlier vipassana insights have been realised. ..... H: > 3) The Buddha recommended guarding the senses, which is a process > of > control over reactions, and it requires volitional effort. ..... S: Let me try from another angle;-) It may be apparent to us when there is obvious attachment and even a kind of desperation for a particular result, whether it be in meditation practice, dhamma text reading, or discussion with a teacher (even with K.Sujin;-)), that such kinds of attachment hinder rather than assist the achieving of the desired result of wholesome states and presently arising bhavana (mental development). Furthermore, it may be apparent to us at such times that in spite of the intentions to the contrary, the idea that control, wishing and volitional effort can bring a wholesome result is erroneous and contrary to the development of detachment. Now this doesn’t mean that most of our day shouldn’t be filled with attachments and other defilements as it so obviously is:-). Obviously when we go surfing, mountain hiking or any of these other supposedly wholesome activities, there’s bound to be attachment and a lack of any guarding of the sense-doors much of the time. However, I believe there’s a difference between slowly understanding these presently arrising phenomena on the one hand and having the idea that they are a necessary part of the path to be pursued on the other. To give a simple example: there’s a difference between enjoying a sunset, with hopefully moments of awareness in between the enjoyment, and believing that it is a wholesome activity that will take one along the path. Furthermore, there’s a difference between understanding the conditioned attachment and other objects at this moment which will inevitably and eventually lead to a guarding of the senses and the pursuit of such guarding with an idea that it can be done by a ‘willing’ or ‘controlling’ or a deap-seated belief in self. Our wrong views have to be known and eliminated before more subtle kinds of attachment can be truly understood and eliminated. Just as those more obvious kinds of attachment can perhaps be seen as contrary to the development of insight (but worthy objects of course), so can more subtle kinds, even whilst reading dhamma or following any special practice, be seen too. I think our desire for results and development is so deeply ingrained that the lobha and ditthi (wrong views) trick us all the time. Does this make any more sense? Look f/w to hearing your feedback. Metta, Sarah p.s I appreciated your references and quotes on samvega (sense of urgency)which I understand to refer to wholesome states in these contexts and not to desire or anxiety. The same applies to 'lives ardently', also discussed in the Satipatthana Sutta. You may like to look at a past post of mine on samvega: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17922 ======= 23462 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 0:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Dear Sarah, Howard, and All, Sarah said: "Furthermore, it may be apparent to us at such times that in spite of the intentions to the contrary, the idea that control, wishing and volitional effort can bring a wholesome result is erroneous and contrary to the development of detachment." CJF: I hope this isn't a silly question... If there is no control, if there is no self who can will or wish the arising of any mindstate - how is it that the Buddha, Ananda, Sariputta, and MahaMoggallana could make aspirations aeons ago to be in the roles in which we know them? Isn't an aspiration a Big Wish? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: 23463 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Chanting and transference of merits to petas Hi PC, Nina & All, I had planned to add a tale from the Comy to the Peta Stories (Paramatthadiipanii naama Petavatthu-a.t.takathaa) before going on holiday (with Nina and PC's encouragement) and the sutta about Upali, Sariputta’s brother reminded me. This is my brief summary of the ‘Exposition of the Elder Saripitta’s Mother Peta Story’ A peta who had been Sariputta’s mother in a fairly recent life, was born in miserable circumstances, ‘naked and hideous’ as a result of ‘misconduct in speech’ and abuse to passing recluses and beggars. She managed, as a peta, to approach Sariputta, told him she had been his mother and that now as a peta, she lived in hunger and thirst, feeding on ‘The thrown out, the expectorated, sputum, nose-mucus, phlegm, the fat of those being burnt and the blood of delivered women’, not to mention the ‘pus and blood of cattle’. She begged Sariputa to offer a gift and transfer the merit (make it over - anvaadiaahi) to her so she may be ‘freed from eating pus and blood’. Comy detail note: “Make it over to me (anvaadisaahi me): please give an assigned gift dedicating it in such a way that the donation that has been given will be of benefit to me. Surely then I will be freed from eating pus and blood (app’eva naama mu~nceyya.m pubbalohiabhojanaa): surely I will be freed from this life as a petii eating pus and blood by means of your dedication”. Sariputta consulted other elders and approached King Bimbisara who then prepared a great offering for the Buddha and monks. He handed it over to Sariputta who gave it all on behalf of the peta. The peta showed her appreciation and ‘arose in the devaloka, richly endowed with all she desired’. When asked by Mahamogallana what her beauty and accomplishments and happy rebirth are due to when she was human, she answered “I was the mother of Sariputta”. ***** I think we just have a glimmer of how complex conditions and kamma are. Only the Buddha could understand all the complexities which lead to the present conditions and results. Sariputta was able to see, hear and appreciate her predicament and give the necessary assistance by letting her rejoice and appreciate his great gift. Even so, without the necessary kamma in the past human life, the rebirth in the deva realm and the beauty and accomplishments would not have been possible. In response to PC’s questions below, I find these points difficult to understand even intellectually. However, just as we cannot always appreciate others’ good deeds and such appreciation varies from individual to individual (or citta to citta), so it must be so much harder when desperately hungry and thirsty in the peta realm. If we reflect wisely it may be another condition for samvega (sense of urgency) to see the value in wholesome deeds now while we have the chance. You also ask about chanting and warding off evil forces. As we know, in truth the greatest protection is in the arising of wholesome states regardless of what vipaka comes our way. Whilst chanting, I understand it is the wise reflection and understanding of the Triple Gem as contained in the Paritta (protections) that leads to the guarding of the doorways from unwholesome elements and influences. As I mentioned before, I believe these other posts may be useful and relevant: Kom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5313 Num: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10722 Nina: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22402 PC, please let us know what you think and how your classes are going. I'll be glad to hear any other comments as I've never found these stories easy to appreciate. Metta, Sarah ======= --- bodhi dhamma wrote: > Hi Bros. and Sis. in the dhamma, > > I understand that when we chant and do transference of merits to petas, > not all petas can receive our merits. Is it because different groups of > them have different mental faculties and different cittas/cetasikas ? > Next, it is said that when one chants attentively, and fully understand > the content of the Bojjhanga Sutras, Ratana sutra etc.one will be > 'protected' against the evil forces. calamities....etc. How chanting,in > these cases can generate powerful wholesome cittas to counter-act the > unwholesome thoughts prevailing in the mind of the evil beings > ?Alternatively,is it because these evil beings receive(or thought > arising from ) the wholesome merits and thus nulilfy their akusala > cittas ? > > I hope to gather some Abhidhammic aspects of the above,for my > forthcoming class discussion. 23464 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:26am Subject: Not such a silly question...... Hi Christine, Your questions are never silly and this is a very good one;-) --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > CJF: I hope this isn't a silly question... If there is no control, > if there is no self who can will or wish the arising of any > mindstate - how is it that the Buddha, Ananda, Sariputta, and > MahaMoggallana could make aspirations aeons ago to be in the roles in > which we know them? Isn't an aspiration a Big Wish? ..... Usually our wishes are motivated by desire, but of course in these cases they are very highly refined wholesome aspirations dependent on great wisdom;-) We also know that such an aspiration (or Big Wish) cannot on its own bring about the desired result, but must be supported by the development of other very highly refined wholesome states and all the right supporting conditions, none of which is any idea of self being able to control the result;-)A Big Wish brought about by unimaginable detachment rather than attachment...not easy to comprehend, I think. Reading about the Bodhisatta’s life as Sumedha when he made his undertaking before Dipankara Buddha, we read read about the great understanding and detachment already developed, how he had realised all the various attainments and how the Wish or Act of Merit only succeeds for one such as Sumedha. Even then, only after a hundred thousand eons and four incalculables would he become a Buddha. So we see that they are still conditioned mind-states which bring particular results -- still no self, no control and no unwholesome wishing and effort that bring any wholesome results (except indirectly). Not sure if this helps - others may also have ideas. I’d be happy to come back with anything further on Sumedha. I think it also came up in ‘Perfections’ and you might like to give us the link or references if it helps. I'm rushing a bit here. Hope to hear your further reflections. Metta, Sarah ======== 23465 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" < > > Sarah said: "Furthermore, it may be apparent to us at such times that > in spite of the > intentions to the contrary, the idea that control, wishing and > volitional > effort can bring a wholesome result is erroneous and contrary to the > development of detachment." _____ > CJF: I hope this isn't a silly question... If there is no control, > if there is no self who can will or wish the arising of any > mindstate - how is it that the Buddha, Ananda, Sariputta, and > MahaMoggallana could make aspirations aeons ago to be in the roles in > which we know them? Isn't an aspiration a Big Wish? > ____________ Dear Christine, This is a good question. I used to think that desire for such lofty goals as nibbana was something benign or even to be encouraged. However we need to be scrutinize very carefully the moments when such thoughts arise to learn whether there is genuine aspiration (aditthana parami). I quote from Nina's book about the parami: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of% 20enlightenment.htm#Chapter%201 ""The Bodhisatta developed the perfection of determination, aditthãna parami. He was unshakable in his resolution to develop all the perfections until he would attain Buddhahood. We too have to be determined to develop the perfections life after life.<..> Are we determined to continue to develop right understanding until we have reached the goal?"enquote I know when I first learned about nibbana I had great desire for it. But it was without any understanding of the degree of giving up that it involved. I thought 10 years would be a good time-frame! So much conceit. But the true disciples of the Buddha heaped up merit over aeons. They didn't become discouraged by obstacles and indeed must have seen them as opportunities for patience or giving or adhitthana or... ""For when the Great Man, straining and striving for the fulfilment of the requisites of enlightenment, encounters troubles difficult to endure, depriving him of happiness and his means of support, or when he encounters injuries imposed by beings and formations- difficult to overcome, violent, sapping the vitality— then, since he has surrendered himself to the Buddhas, he reflects: I have relinquished my very self to the Buddhas. Whatever comes, let it come. For this reason he does not waver, does not quake, does not undergo the least vacillation, but remains absolutely unshaken in his determination to undertake the good."" Nina writes: "Whatever comes, let it come. No matter what will happen in our life, let us be determined to continue to develop right understanding of the present object.""endquote Yes, it is fine to aspire for exalted states but we have to be sincere so that we know what it takes. We then begin to relish the moment - no matter if against our worldly wishes - because only by understanding and letting go of self view is progress possible: ""The commentary to the Cariyapitaka 1) states that the Bodhisatta considers the following: 'Mere dhammas alone exist, devoid of self or of anything pertaining to a self. They arise and pass away in accordance with their conditions. They do not come from anywhere, they do not go anywhere, they are not established anywhere. There is no agency in anything whatsoever. In this way a Bodhisatta becomes fixed in his destiny, bound for enlightenment, irreversible.'""endquote robertk 23466 From: bodhi2500 Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > S: I'm not sure I can add anything helpful to Ken H's comments, but I'll > try -- > > a) I agree with the `we start where we are.....'. Of course in paramattha > terms, this means simply that namas and rupas are as conditioned at this > moment. > > b) I don't agree that the elimination of suffering depends on desire but > that it is eliminated in spite of the deep-rooted desire which has to be > thoroughly known and thereby eradicated. (purima tanha or pre- craving > which conditions bhava is another point). > > Remember the sutta about the chicks hatching and so on, with right > conditions and regardless of wishing.... > Metta, > > Sarah Hi Sarah In paramattha terms chanda cetasika in Right effort,is often translated as desire/wish to do. With this understanding, can it not be said that desire/chanda is a factor of the path that leads to the cessation of dukkha? And I would think without desire/chanda of right effort there can be no development of the path? But this desire must arise with the right conditions, which would be different to wishing/desire rooted in lobha. Kindred saying(V,Mahavagga,XLV,kindred sayings on the way,ChapterIV,II,restrain of passion) just as, monks the dawn is the forerunner,the harbringer of the arising sun,so possession of desire(chanda) is the forerunner, the harbinger of the arising of the 8 Fold Noble path. Of a monk who is possessed of desire, it may be expected that he will cultivate the Noble 8 Fold Path. Steve. 23467 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: Not such a silly question...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Your questions are never silly and this is a very good one;-) > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > > CJF: I hope this isn't a silly question... If there is no control, > > if there is no self who can will or wish the arising of any > > mindstate - how is it that the Buddha, Ananda, Sariputta, and > > MahaMoggallana could make aspirations aeons ago to be in the roles in > > which we know them? Isn't an aspiration a Big Wish? > ..... > Usually our wishes are motivated by desire, but of course in these cases > they are very highly refined wholesome aspirations dependent on great > wisdom;-) Hi Sarah, I don't find this explanation adequate. An aspiration is a desire, regardless of the number of adjectives you attach to it. From dictionary.com: aspiration n 1: a will to succeed 2: a cherished desire; Could you please explain what the Buddha had prior to enlightenment, that drove him to achieve enlightenment, and do so without using any words that relate to desire or control? Metta, James 23468 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:21am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Robert K, Sarah and all, The following discourse might be of some interest to you. Anguttara Nikaya III.81 (ii) Gadrabha Sutta The Donkey Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- "Monks, it is just as if a donkey were following right after a herd of cattle, saying, "I too am a cow! I too am a cow!" Its color is not that of a cow, its voice is not that of a cow, its hoof is not that of a cow, and yet it still keeps following right after the herd of cattle, saying, "I too am a cow! I too am a cow!" In the same way, there is the case where a certain monk follows right after the community of monks, saying, "I too am a monk! I too am a monk!" He doesn't have the other monks' desire for undertaking the training in heightened virtue, doesn't have their desire for undertaking the training in heightened mind (concentration), doesn't have their desire for undertaking the training in heightened discernment, and yet he still keeps following right after the community of monks, saying, "I too am a monk! I too am a monk!" "So you should train yourselves: 'Strong will be our desire for undertaking the training in heightened virtue; strong will be our desire for undertaking the training in heightened mind (concentration); strong will be our desire for undertaking the training in heightened discernment.' That is how you should train yourselves." Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor 23469 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Steve (and Sarah), Hope you'll excuse my butting in-- ----- Original Message ----- From: bodhi2500 To: Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:41 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH > Hi Sarah > In paramattha terms chanda cetasika in Right effort,is often > translated as desire/wish to do. With this understanding, can it not > be said that desire/chanda is a factor of the path that leads to the > cessation of dukkha? And I would think without desire/chanda of right > effort there can be no development of the path? But this desire must > arise with the right conditions, which would be different to > wishing/desire rooted in lobha. > > Kindred saying(V,Mahavagga,XLV,kindred sayings on the > way,ChapterIV,II,restrain of passion) > > just as, monks the dawn is the forerunner,the harbringer of the > arising sun,so possession of desire(chanda) is the forerunner, the > harbinger of the arising of the 8 Fold Noble path. Of a monk who is > possessed of desire, it may be expected that he will cultivate the > Noble 8 Fold Path. Thanks for the great quote. I've always found chanda interesting and your message led me to look into it a little more. I found this in CMA, Bhikkhu Bodhi's Guide to the Occasionals [Occasional Mental Factors]: "Desire (Chanda): Chanda here means desire to act (kattu-kaamataa) that is, to perform an action or achieve a result. This kind of desire must be distinguished from desire in the reprehensible sense, that is from lobha, greeed and raaga, lust. Whereas the latter terms are invariably wholesome, chanda is an ethically variable factor which, when conjoined with wholesome concomitants, can function as the virtuous desire to achieve a worthy goal. The characteristic of chanda is to act, its function is searching for an object, its manifestation is need for an object, and that same object is its proximate cause. It should be regarded as the stretching forth of the mind' s hand towards the object." Assuming BB to be correct, since chanda is 'ethically variable' (can be wholesome or unwholesome), it seems to me that it must be unwholesome when its object is, for example, pleasant feeling or relief from unpleasant feeling (as each of these would be attachment to vedanaa which is unsatisfactory, impermanent and not-self), or when attended by self-view. It also seems to me that chanda not associated with desire for certain feelings or self-view is very rare (certainly for me). If so, it's important, I think, to carefully distinguish between wholesome chanda, unwholesome chanda and and attachment (especially with self-view)--difficult too, I think. mike 23470 From: Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 7/17/03 2:30:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Glad to chat with you again -- > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > H: > ..... However, I have a couple comments that go > >somewhat in the opposite direction: > > 1) We start where we are, not where we would hope to be. If there > >were > >no desire to eliminate suffering, it would never be eliminated. If we > >had to > >be free of craving, aversion, and attachment to begin to divest > >ourselves of > >these, no one, ever, would attain enlightenment. > ..... > S: I’m not sure I can add anything helpful to Ken H’s comments, but I’ll > try -- > > a) I agree with the ‘we start where we are.....’. Of course in paramattha > terms, this means simply that namas and rupas are as conditioned at this > moment. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: My point was that we begin to "search for the exit" because we are dissatisfied with our dissatisfaction. The prisoner who thinks the accomodations, food,and company are just fine, won't look for the exit. In fact,he won't even walk through an open cell door. The path is a bootstrap operation. To add yet one more metaphor, we must use what is available in the pit to pull ourselves out of the pit. ------------------------------------------------------ > > b) I don’t agree that the elimination of suffering depends on desire but > that it is eliminated in spite of the deep-rooted desire which has to be > thoroughly known and thereby eradicated. (purima tanha or pre-craving > which conditions bhava is another point). > > Remember the sutta about the chicks hatching and so on, with right > conditions and regardless of wishing.... > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: But the chicks must peck at that shell. The Buddha began his quest when he realized that the of a worldling is unsatisfactory. In particular, *he* was dissatisfied and went on his quest to *escape* dukkha. He was motivated by desire. ------------------------------------------------ > > c) I’m sure there’s no suggestion by anyone here that we have to be ‘free > of craving, aversion, and attachment to begin....’. As you say, if this > were so, there’d be no enlightenment. There wouldn’t even be a start on > the path. Of course, as you know well, even at the outset there truly is > no self to divest of anything. Only an illusion that this is so. > ..... > H: > 2) The understanding of arisen states, particularly seeing the > > >tilakkhana in them, is the primary means to achieve liberation. > ..... > S: a) Agreed with the proviso that understanding has to gradually > develop, penetrating the ‘nature’ and characteristics of arisen states > deeper and more and more precisely with detachment. > > b) As discussed, the tilakkhana are only penetrated when the earlier > vipassana insights have been realised. > ..... > H: > 3) The Buddha recommended guarding the senses, which is a > process > >of > >control over reactions, and it requires volitional effort. > ..... > S: Let me try from another angle;-) > > It may be apparent to us when there is obvious attachment and even a kind > of desperation for a particular result, whether it be in meditation > practice, dhamma text reading, or discussion with a teacher (even with > K.Sujin;-)), that such kinds of attachment hinder rather than assist the > achieving of the desired result of wholesome states and presently arising > bhavana (mental development). > > Furthermore, it may be apparent to us at such times that in spite of the > intentions to the contrary, the idea that control, wishing and volitional > effort can bring a wholesome result is erroneous and contrary to the > development of detachment. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I think that the Buddha's teachings on guarding the senses and on right effort do advocate the use of volitional action and the exercise of control (or, better, influence). ----------------------------------------------------- > > Now this doesn’t mean that most of our day shouldn’t be filled with > attachments and other defilements as it so obviously is:-). Obviously when > we go surfing, mountain hiking or any of these other supposedly wholesome > activities, there’s bound to be attachment and a lack of any guarding of > the sense-doors much of the time. > > However, I believe there’s a difference between slowly understanding these > presently arrising phenomena on the one hand and having the idea that they > are a necessary part of the path to be pursued on the other. To give a > simple example: there’s a difference between enjoying a sunset, with > hopefully moments of awareness in between the enjoyment, and believing > that it is a wholesome activity that will take one along the path. > > Furthermore, there’s a difference between understanding the conditioned > attachment and other objects at this moment which will inevitably and > eventually lead to a guarding of the senses and the pursuit of such > guarding with an idea that it can be done by a ‘willing’ or ‘controlling’ > or a deap-seated belief in self. > > Our wrong views have to be known and eliminated before more subtle kinds > of attachment can be truly understood and eliminated. Just as those more > obvious kinds of attachment can perhaps be seen as contrary to the > development of insight (but worthy objects of course), so can more subtle > kinds, even whilst reading dhamma or following any special practice, be > seen too. > > I think our desire for results and development is so deeply ingrained that > the lobha and ditthi (wrong views) trick us all the time. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: If our desire for results fixates us on the goal rather than directing us to the conditions needed to achieve that goal, such goal-orientation is, of course, harmful. But there is a goal, and there needs to be. If there were no goal, there would be no walking of the path to the goal. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Does this make any more sense? Look f/w to hearing your feedback. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s I appreciated your references and quotes on samvega (sense of > urgency)which I understand to refer to wholesome states in these contexts > and not to desire or anxiety. The same applies to 'lives ardently', also > discussed in the Satipatthana Sutta. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yeah, yeah, Sarah. It's all "states". ;-)) But intention plays a role in the arising these states. ----------------------------------------------------- > > You may like to look at a past post of mine on samvega: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17922 > ======= > ============================== Thank you for your reply, Sarah. It's always a pleasure chatting with you. (Sorry to disagree so often! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23471 From: Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi, Christine - In a message dated 7/17/03 3:55:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Sarah, Howard, and All, > > Sarah said: "Furthermore, it may be apparent to us at such times that > in spite of the > intentions to the contrary, the idea that control, wishing and > volitional > effort can bring a wholesome result is erroneous and contrary to the > development of detachment." > > CJF: I hope this isn't a silly question... If there is no control, > if there is no self who can will or wish the arising of any > mindstate - how is it that the Buddha, Ananda, Sariputta, and > MahaMoggallana could make aspirations aeons ago to be in the roles in > which we know them? Isn't an aspiration a Big Wish? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ========================== Since you have included me among the addressees, I will reply. I think your question is a good one. And, yes, I think that an aspiration is a Big Wish. The Bodhisatta and the others certainly expressed strong intentions in making their vows. And those intentions, along with other critical conditions, eventually led to their fruition. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23472 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Howard and all, I think we share the same sentiment that without desire, motivation, aspiration to achieve/attain a goal, one would never get there. Here is a discourse that I posted some time ago to Azita. Samyutta Nikaya LI.15 Brahmana Sutta To Unnabha the Brahman http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn51-015.html Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > [snip] > Since you have included me among the addressees, I will reply. I think > your question is a good one. And, yes, I think that an aspiration is a Big > Wish. The Bodhisatta and the others certainly expressed strong intentions in > making their vows. And those intentions, along with other critical conditions, > eventually led to their fruition. > > With metta, > Howard 23473 From: Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:13am Subject: Typo Correction Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH In a message dated 7/17/03 9:25:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > But the chicks must peck at that shell. The Buddha began his quest > when he realized that the of a worldling is unsatisfactory. In particular, > *he* > was dissatisfied and went on his quest to *escape* dukkha. He was motivated > by > desire. > ============================ Sorry. "when he realized that the of a worldling ..." should have been "when he realized that the life of a worldling ..." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23474 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)--Giving To vs. Giving Up Mike Thanks, it's nice to be back. And thanks for the very apt quotes you have provided here (as usual). I agree that renunciation/the giving up of desire/nekkhama is not synonymous with dana/giving/caaga, but I seem to remember there may be circumstances in which renunciation is also an aspect of giving. I think the fact of the difference is clearly evident in the following passage from the gradual instruction given by the Buddha (from the entry 'ánupubbí-kathá' in Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary'): "Then the Blessed One gave him a gradual instruction - that is to say, he spoke on liberality ('giving', dána), on moral conduct (síla) and on the heaven (sagga); he explained the peril, the vanity and the depravity of sensual pleasures, and the advantage of renunciation. When the Blessed One perceived that the listener's mind was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted teaching particular to the Buddhas (buddhánam sámukkamsiká desaná), that is: suffering, its cause, its ceasing, and the path." Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Ken, ... > This is also different from renunciation in order to gain > something, usually > tranquility accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling I think, > motivated by > desire for or attachment to pleasant or neutral feeling (as opposed > to > aversion to unpleasant feeling e.g.). > > "And even neutral feeling which as peaceful > the Lord of Wisdom has proclaimed, > if, in attachment, he should cling to it, > he will not be free from the round of ill." > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.3 > Pahana Sutta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn36-003.html > > "It is the happiness and gladness arising dependent on feelings > that is the > gratification in feelings. Feelings are impermanent, (liable to > bring) pain, > and are subject to change; this is the danger in feelings. The > removal and > the giving up of the desire and lust for feelings is the escape > from > feelings. > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.15 > Santaka Sutta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn36-015.html > > As I understand it, the renunciation (caaga?) that is the wholesome > factor > you refer to above always implies giving TO--not just giving > up--especially > not just 'giving up' something in order to get something else. ... > mike > > p.s. Welcome back, Jon and Sarah! 23475 From: Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi, Victor - In a message dated 7/17/03 10:14:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Hi Howard and all, > > I think we share the same sentiment that without desire, motivation, > aspiration to achieve/attain a goal, one would never get there. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Indeed! We actually agree on quite a lot, Victor. I find it a happy turn of events that our agreements seem to be making it possible for us to find no unpleasantness in the fact that we disagree on some matters also. Good friends in the Dhamma are of enormous value! ------------------------------------------------ > > Here is a discourse that I posted some time ago to Azita. > > Samyutta Nikaya LI.15 > Brahmana Sutta > To Unnabha the Brahman > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn51-015.html > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, this is a perfect sutta to make the point. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Peace, > Victor > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23476 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:27am Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Steve Thanks very much for this, and my apologies for not being able to reply while I was away. I agree with the statement you give below. The difficulty I have in reading the passage, however, is that in saying: "In addition to the rupa-dhamma which originates, subsists (decay) and perishes, there are no rupa-dhammas answering to the names: rupassa jati, rupassa jarata and rupassa aniccata." it seems to be suggesting that the characteristics are themselves 'dhammas', whereas in saying: "And it is in order to avoid this problem of infinite regress that the characteristics are not recognized as entities distinct from, and as real as, the dhammas which they characterize." it seems to be suggesting they are not. I'm sure Nina's book 'Cetasikas' will have something on this general area, and I shall check it out when I have time. Jon --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi Jon ... > My understanding of the below passage is; that because the > characteristics of arising,decay and aniccata are not paramattha > Dhammas, then those characteristics have no characteristics of > arising,decay and aniccata. > > Steve 23477 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Mike and Steve, I appreciate your messages. To add a comment: Desire for the five aggregates/sensual desire is different from the desire, motivation, aspiration for the wholesome, for realizing the cessation of dukkha. Without the desire, motivation, and aspiration to develop wholesome qualities, these qualities would not be developed. Without the desire, motivation, and aspiration to realize the cessation of dukkha, the noble eightfold path would not be taken. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Steve (and Sarah), > > Hope you'll excuse my butting in-- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: bodhi2500 > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:41 AM > Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH > > > Hi Sarah > > In paramattha terms chanda cetasika in Right effort,is often > > translated as desire/wish to do. With this understanding, can it not > > be said that desire/chanda is a factor of the path that leads to the > > cessation of dukkha? And I would think without desire/chanda of right > > effort there can be no development of the path? But this desire must > > arise with the right conditions, which would be different to > > wishing/desire rooted in lobha. > > > > Kindred saying(V,Mahavagga,XLV,kindred sayings on the > > way,ChapterIV,II,restrain of passion) > > > > just as, monks the dawn is the forerunner,the harbringer of the > > arising sun,so possession of desire(chanda) is the forerunner, the > > harbinger of the arising of the 8 Fold Noble path. Of a monk who is > > possessed of desire, it may be expected that he will cultivate the > > Noble 8 Fold Path. > > Thanks for the great quote. I've always found chanda interesting and your > message led me to look into it a little more. I found this in CMA, Bhikkhu > Bodhi's Guide to the Occasionals [Occasional Mental Factors]: > > "Desire (Chanda): Chanda here means desire to act (kattu- kaamataa) that is, > to perform an action or achieve a result. This kind of desire must be > distinguished from desire in the reprehensible sense, that is from lobha, > greeed and raaga, lust. Whereas the latter terms are invariably wholesome, > chanda is an ethically variable factor which, when conjoined with wholesome > concomitants, can function as the virtuous desire to achieve a worthy goal. > The characteristic of chanda is to act, its function is searching for an > object, its manifestation is need for an object, and that same object is its > proximate cause. It should be regarded as the stretching forth of the mind' > s hand towards the object." > > Assuming BB to be correct, since chanda is 'ethically variable' (can be > wholesome or unwholesome), it seems to me that it must be unwholesome when > its object is, for example, pleasant feeling or relief from unpleasant > feeling (as each of these would be attachment to vedanaa which is > unsatisfactory, impermanent and not-self), or when attended by self-view. > It also seems to me that chanda not associated with desire for certain > feelings or self-view is very rare (certainly for me). If so, it's > important, I think, to carefully distinguish between wholesome chanda, > unwholesome chanda and and attachment (especially with self-view)-- difficult > too, I think. > > mike 23478 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 8:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Dear Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: CJF: I hope this isn't a silly question... If there is no control, if there is no self who can will or wish the arising of any mindstate - how is it that the Buddha, Ananda, Sariputta, and MahaMoggallana could make aspirations aeons ago to be in the roles in which we know them? Isn't an aspiration a Big Wish? KKT: I think the problem is very simple. As long as ego persists (ie. the feeling of I, me, mine, myself or the sense of separate individuality) there will be will, desire, aspiration. Because ego, will, desire are synonymous. No-will, no-desire are << effective >> only when there is no more ego. But there is no harm with ego. Think of this: << using a thorn to remove a thorn >> I think there are two levels in the Buddha's teachings: in the first level, ego is considered a reality. Therefore will, desire, aspiration, effort are all << real >> Only in the second level that one begins to see the illusory characteristic of the ego. Peace, KKT 23479 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:08am Subject: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 9 Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 9 Since the Bodhisatta was averse from favours and praise that come with monkhood, he did not go forth. However, he was a monk at heart and developed kusala so that others would in truth respect him, even though he had not gone forth. We read further on: He had the highest degree of contentment with little, he delighted in tranquillity, he had no concern for his body and his life, because his aim was equanimity. He practised the abandonment of defilements to the highest degree, he endured the ugly deeds from others. He had the firm determination to diminish the defilements which were opposed to the requisites of enlightenment by evenmindedness in all respects. This caused him to be without excess, to be impartial towards others who supported him and to those who did not. He was like an arahat and hence he did not cling to the vicissitudes of life. He reached the peak of the perfection of equanimity, and as such it is pre-eminently a perfection leading to the awakening of a Buddha (Buddha påramí). By the perfection of equanimity one can have impartiality towards all beings and this is most difficult to practise. The ten perfections are: generosity, dåna, morality, síla, renunciation, nekkhamma, wisdom, paññå, energy, viriya patience, khanti truthfulness, sacca, determination, aditthåna, loving-kindness, mettå, equanimity, upekkhå. We should not neglect anyone of these ten perfections, we need them all. We need sincerity in the abandonment of defilements and that is the perfection of truthfulness. We should remember to think of other people¹s wrongs with loving-kindness. We also need the perfection of determination, the firm, unshakable determination to practise all kinds of kusala in order to reach the goal. We may have sincerity in our wish to abandon defilements, but at times we lack determination, we are not firm enough in our determination to abandon defilements. We need the perfection of determination for being sincere in our practice to eradicate defilements. We need the perfection of patience, that is, endurance. We need to develop all the perfections and this is the only way to have wise attention, to develop paññå. (end of Ch 11) 23480 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:08am Subject: FW: Subcommentary Mahaaraahulovaadasutta ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:35:16 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Subcommentary Mahaaraahulovaadasutta Subcommentary Mahaaraahulovaadasutta Subcommentary (of Dhammapaala): Commentary passage relevant to the Subcommentary: idaanissa taadibhaavalakkha.na.m aacikkhanto pathaviisamantiaadimaaha. Now he said, when explaining the characteristic of such nature (of the highest qualification), ³like the earth² and so on. i.t.thaani.t.thesu hi arajjanto adussanto taadii naama hoti. not being attached nor having aversion with regard to the desirable and the undesirable is ³suchness². words in subcommentary: ni.t.thita: completed anuyu~njati: engage in, apply aacikkhati: to explain aacikkhana: anouncing, explanation pavatti (f): procedure, existence gahetva: from ga.nhati: seize, take hold of. parigga.nhati: take possession of, comprehend, examine. causative: pariggaheti. okaasa (m): , open space, appearance, opportunity Text Subcommentary: 119. taadibhaavo naama ni.t.thitakiccassa hoti, aya~nca vipassana.m anuyu~njati, The nature of ³suchness² refers to the task that has been completed, and he applies himself to insight, atha kimattha.m taadibhaavataa vuttaati? and then, in which sense was the nature of suchness spoken of? pathaviisamataadilakkha.naacikkha.naahi vipassanaaya sukhappavattiattha.m. The explanation of the characteristic of (development) like the earth and so on has the meaning of a happy course of insight. tenaaha ``i.t.thaani.t.thesuu''tiaadi. Therefore he says, ³with regard to the desirable and the undesirable² and so on. gahetvaati kusalappavattiyaa okaasadaanavasena pariggahetvaa. As to the words, after he has mastered them, this means, after he has thoroughly comprehended them, because of the opportunity that was given for a skilful course of action. English: The nature of ³suchness² refers to the task that has been completed, and he applies himself to insight; and then, in which sense was the nature of suchness spoken of? The explanation of the characteristic of (development) like the earth and so on has the meaning of a happy course of insight. Therefore he says, ³with regard to the desirable and the undesirable² and so on. As to the words, after he has mastered them, this means, after he has thoroughly comprehended them, because of the opportunity that was given for a skilful course of action. Nina. 23481 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: renunciation Dear Mike and Ken, op 16-07-2003 14:50 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > This has the ring of 'pabbajjaa' to me which, as you know, means 'going > forth' (to be a bhikkhu) but also has the meaning of 'renunciation'. Going > forth seems to me to partake of siila for sure (taking precepts) and maybe > bhaavanaa (as a part of the monastic routine?) but not necessarily of daana? > >> It seems to me that the above definition could apply to >> any consciousness that has kusala [or right] thought. > > It does seem to me that it (nekkhamma) might be conditioned by right > thought. A right thought might be one of the three but not the other two, I > think (of daana, siila and bhaavanaa). N: Here is a passage from Perfections by A. Sujin: And further on: Nina. 23482 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Sarah, Welcome back and thanks for the encouraging words. I'm having one of those mental blocks that I've told you about before, so don't expect any 'pithy' closing lines. :-) The surf at Noosa is particularly good at the moment; maybe that's why I don't have energy for anything else -- maybe age is catching up with me?! You wrote to James: > We all know this is a discussion group and we're just > giving comments according to our present understanding > which can be questioned and challenged at any time. > The efficacy of Dhamma discussion, is a topic we don't seem to discuss much. (Perhaps we're a little self- conscious.) There are some lines in the suttas that give friendship pride of place. They say it is the whole of the holy life (or was it 'the whole of the Dhamma?'). It will be good if you (or anyone), can comment on that some time. (No pressure. :-) ) Kind regards, Ken H 23483 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:10pm Subject: Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends was( Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hello KenH, Sarah and All, I felt I wanted to write a little on this topic as I know from experience the absolute necessity of having supportive Dhamma friends to encourage one to stick with Buddhism for the long haul. (I am taking it that you mean Kalyana-mitta, Admirable Friends). Mostly, ordinary friendship means associating with those to whom one is attracted, whose personality one likes and finds pleasant, who share the same interests and activities, with whom one can laugh. Just this much, I think, could merely be an expression of lobha or raga. But a Noble Friend, a Kalyana-mitta, is one who one knows because of the Dhamma; one who will be able to offer guidance and instruction and also be able to offer criticism where appropriate - as well as friendship and encouragement. A Noble Friend is someone in whom you can place trust, that they care about your spiritual well-being. Initially, one of the most difficult obstacles in developing a spiritual life is isolation. I can well remember how disheartened I felt a few years back when I didn't have face-to-face, voice-to-voice contact with anyone interested in the Buddha's Teachings as found in the Tipitaka. It was first through finding Dhamma-List, and then with RobK's encouragement, posting on DhammaStudyGroup, that I found the support of true kalyana- mittas. I am almost sure that without the friendship of those whom I have met in Australia, Hong Kong, Thailand and Sri Lanka through this group, I would have fallen away from The Teachings. It hasn't always been smooth sailing, I can remember the occasional misunderstanding and disagreements, but always the influence of the Dhamma prevailed and things were respectfully sorted out. This beautiful Sutta is a translation by John D. Ireland before, 'On Friendship' SN II.3 Hiri Sutta: "One who, overstepping and despising a sense of shame, says, 'I am your friend,' but does not take upon himself any tasks he is capable of doing, is to be recognized as no friend. One who speaks amiably to his companions, but whose actions do not conform to it, him the wise know for certain as a talker not a doer. He is no friend who, anticipating conflict, is always alert in looking out for weaknesses But he on whom one can rely, like a child sleeping on its mother's breast, is truly a friend who cannot be parted from one by others. One who bears the human burden of responsibility, with it fruits and blessings in mind, he cultivates a cause of joy and happiness worthy of praise. Having tasted the flavor of solitude and peace one is free from fear and wrong-doings imbibing the rapture of Dhamma." -- vv. 253-257 Some quotes: Bhikkhu Bodhi 'Association with the wise' "The Mahamangala Sutta, the Great Discourse on Blessings, is one of the most popular Buddhist suttas, included in all the standard repertories of Pali devotional chants. The sutta begins when a deity of stunning beauty, having descended to earth in the stillness of the night, approaches the Blessed One in the Jeta Grove and asks about the way to the highest blessings. In the very first stanza of his reply the Buddha states that the highest blessing comes from avoiding fools and associating with the wise (asevana ca balanam, panditanan ca sevana). Since the rest of the sutta goes on to sketch all the different aspects of human felicity, both mundane and spiritual, the assignment of association with the wise to the opening stanza serves to emphasize a key point: that progress along the path of the Dhamma hinges on making the right choices in our friendships." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay26.html Admirable Friendship (sutta quotes): the definition a cause for development of admirable qualities choose your companions with care as a prerequisite for awakening the whole of the holy life the benefits of admirable friendship qualities of a dhamma teacher keeping company with the wise never with an evil companion http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/kalyanamittata.html Upaddha Sutta 'Half'(of the Holy Life) As he was seated to one side, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, Lord: being a friend with admirable people, a companion with admirable people, a colleague with admirable people." "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Being a friend with admirable people, a companion with admirable people, a colleague with admirable people is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk is a friend with admirable people, a companion with admirable people, a colleague with admirable people, it is to be expected of him that he will develop the noble eightfold path, and make much of it. . . . And through this line of reasoning one may know how being a friend with such people is actually the whole of the holy life: It is in dependence on me as an admirable friend that beings subject to birth have gained release from birth, that beings subject to aging have gained release from aging, that beings subject to death have gained release from death, that beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair have gained release from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-002.html And a few more quotes from the Scriptures: Keeping company with the wise: It's good to see Noble Ones. Happy their company always. Through not seeing fools constantly, constantly one would be happy. For, living with a fool, one grieves a long time. Painful is communion with fools, as with an enemy always. Happy is communion with the enlightened, as with a gathering of kin. So: the enlightened man - discerning, learned, enduring, dutiful, noble, intelligent, a man of integrity: You should follow him - follow one of this sort; -- as the moon, the path of the zodiac stars. Dhp 206 Never with an evil companion: I'm blind, my eyes are destroyed. I've stumbled on a wilderness track. Even if I must crawl, I'll go on, but not with an evil companion. Thag 95 "With regard to external factors, I don't envision any other single factor like friendship with admirable people in being so helpful for a monk who is a learner, who has not attained the goal but remains intent on the unsurpassed rest from the yoke. A monk who is a friend with admirable people abandons what is unskillful and develops what is skillful." Iti 17 metta and peace, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Welcome back and thanks for the encouraging words. > > I'm having one of those mental blocks that I've told you > about before, so don't expect any 'pithy' closing lines. > :-) The surf at Noosa is particularly good at the > moment; maybe that's why I don't have energy for anything > else -- maybe age is catching up with me?! > > You wrote to James: > > We all know this is a discussion group and we're just > > giving comments according to our present understanding > > which can be questioned and challenged at any time. > > > The efficacy of Dhamma discussion, is a topic we don't > seem to discuss much. (Perhaps we're a little self- > conscious.) There are some lines in the suttas that give > friendship pride of place. They say it is the whole of > the holy life (or was it 'the whole of the Dhamma?'). It > will be good if you (or anyone), can comment on that some > time. (No pressure. :-) ) > > Kind regards, > Ken H 23484 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Dear Luan (and Chris), I think Luan's right: ----- Original Message ----- From: phamdluan2000 To: Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 8:13 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH > I think there are two levels > in the Buddha's teachings: > in the first level, ego is considered > a reality. Therefore will, desire, > aspiration, effort are all << real >> > Only in the second level that > one begins to see the illusory > characteristic of the ego. From Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' Paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desanå) 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohåra-sacca), which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: samvrti-satya). The Buddha, in explaining his doctrine, sometimes used conventional language and sometimes the philosophical mode of expression which is in accordance whith undeluded insight into reality. In that ultimate sense, existence is a mere process of physical and mental phenomena within which, or beyond which, no real ego-entity nor any abiding substance can ever be found. Thus, whenever the suttas speak of man, woman or person, or of the rebirth of a being, this must not be taken as being valid in the ultimate sense, but as a mere conventional mode of speech (vohåra-vacana). mike 23485 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Ken, > > When you said that there is no control, do you mean > that one can not make the conditioned permanent, > satisfactory, self? Hello Victor, Yes, I think that is exactly what we are being taught. If consciousness were self, then it would be possible to decree, "Let consciousness be permanent and not subject to suffering," and so on for each of the other four khandhas." (I'm sure you know the sutta I'm trying to remember here.) But in reality, no-one, not even a Buddha has control. > Do you mean that one can refrain and control self from > unwholesome action in body, speech, and mind? I'm not sure I follow that question. Wouldn't it be misleading to talk about control of the self, when we are trying to understand that self is an illusion? "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there; Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it; The Path is but no traveller on it is seen." (Vis. XVI) If I have missed the point of your question, please give me another try. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 23486 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:47pm Subject: Not such a silly question .... was(Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Dear Sarah, Robert, and All, Thank you for your posts, I guess I'm still not understanding this. Sarah, you say: 'the Wish or Act of Merit only succeeds for one such as Sumedha'. I read many posts on various lists about thousands of people making Bodhisattva vows/aspirations - is not this a similar type of Aspiration that the Buddha, Ananda and the others made? And RobK, I wonder why having nibbana as the goal isn't a good thing to be encouraged? When I first heard of it, and new how difficult and long the way was - it seemed a comfort, it made rebirth seem almost like 'travelling eternity'. I even thought it might be a good thing to do 'just enough', to make enough merit (if one could find out how much was 'enough') to keep being reborn in happy conditions. But, in reality, we are trapped on a Ferris Wheel - going round and round - but going nowhere. When I read of the development by the Buddha of the Perfections, over aeons, the stories always seem to imply that he remembered the past lives and knew what his goal was. We, however, don't remember our past lives, and seem to trip over the Dhamma by accident. The terms The Noble Eightfold Path and The Way seem to indicate a direction to travel in, leading to a destination. This journey will take such a long time anyway - but surely much longer if one doesn't head for a goal. I guess the idea of beginningless time is becoming a little discouraging to me nowadays. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: 23487 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hello KKT, Due to some domestic distractions, I have only just now read your Post. Thank you for the reminder of the two levels of teaching. You say ego, will, desire are synonymous and give the example of using a thorn to remove a thorn .. that this is the same as using a self to remove the idea of self. As Howard says (I think) we need to start where we are. Therefore, while we still have self-view then it is natural to think of control, and to act as if there is a self who can plan and do things. But 'acting as if' something illusory is real, is different to actually 'making mindstates happen', I think? metta and peace, christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > Dear Christine, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > > CJF: I hope this isn't a silly question... If there is no control, > if there is no self who can will or wish the arising of any > mindstate - how is it that the Buddha, Ananda, Sariputta, and > MahaMoggallana could make aspirations aeons ago to be in the roles in > which we know them? Isn't an aspiration a Big Wish? > > > > > KKT: I think the problem is very simple. > > As long as ego persists > (ie. the feeling of I, me, mine, myself > or the sense of separate individuality) > there will be will, desire, aspiration. > > Because ego, will, desire are synonymous. > > No-will, no-desire are << effective >> > only when there is no more ego. > > But there is no harm with ego. > > Think of this: > > << using a thorn to remove a thorn >> > > I think there are two levels > in the Buddha's teachings: > in the first level, ego is considered > a reality. Therefore will, desire, > aspiration, effort are all << real >> > Only in the second level that > one begins to see the illusory > characteristic of the ego. > > > Peace, > > > KKT 23488 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Steve (& Mike), --- bodhi2500 wrote: Steve: > Hi Sarah > In paramattha terms chanda cetasika in Right effort,is often > translated as desire/wish to do. With this understanding, can it not > be said that desire/chanda is a factor of the path that leads to the > cessation of dukkha? And I would think without desire/chanda of right > effort there can be no development of the path? But this desire must > arise with the right conditions, which would be different to > wishing/desire rooted in lobha. .... Sarah: As Mike said, your comments and quotes are all good ones. Indeed there cannot be any wholesome consciousness without chanda searching out its object. However, I took the desire being discussed by Howard to be lobha, accompanied by unwholesome chanda. As we know, it arises with all kinds of lobha and we cannot say that because the object is nibbana or wisdom, for example, that therefore the citta and accompanying chanda must be wholesome. Nina writes in ‘Cetasikas”: http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas14.html ***** Quote >The lokuttara cittas are accompanied by chanda which "searches for' nibbana. This kind of chanda is lokuttara, it is different from longing for nibbana. It assists the Iokuttara citta to carry out its function. The lokuttara citta and thus also the accompanying chanda directly experience nibbana (1 For details about the cittas which are accompanied by chanda, see Appendix 6.). How do we know when chanda is kusala and when it is akusala? For instance, when we have desire for sati, is this kusala chanda or attachment? We have accumulated a great deal of attachment and thus there is likely to be more often attachment than kusala chanda. We are attached to a concept of sati and we believe that we can cause its arising. Wanting to have sati is different from the moment sati arises. There are many moments of forgetfuless but sometimes there may be a moment of mindfulness of only one object at a time appearing through one of the six doors. When sati arises it is accompanied by kusala chanda which performs its function. Kindred saying(V,Mahavagga,XLV,kindred sayings on the > way,ChapterIV,II,restrain of passion) > > just as, monks the dawn is the forerunner,the harbringer of the > arising sun,so possession of desire(chanda) is the forerunner, the > harbinger of the arising of the 8 Fold Noble path. Of a monk who is > possessed of desire, it may be expected that he will cultivate the > Noble 8 Fold Path. ..... Sarah: Yes, without(sobhana) chanda, there is no eightfold path and we also read that it’s one of the four predominant factors, one of the bodhipakkhiya dhammas and so on. I liked the definition Mike quoted of “the stretching forth of the mind's hand towards the object” with the object as proximate cause. Like he said, I think the wholesome moments of ‘stretching forth’ for the object are rare amongst those rooted in attachment. Thanks for your helpful input. I’ll be glad for any more. Thanks, Mike for precious help as well. Metta, Sarah ===== 23489 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 0:12am Subject: Re: Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends was( Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) --- dear Christine, the following passages have made for wonderful reading for me. Thanks. A happy birthday too, I've just had mine, and I know you and I have close-together birthdays. Hope it's a good, full of kusala and Kalana-Mittas type of day. May the Ferris Wheel be joyful, Azita Imogen [bec I imagine things are as they aren't] In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello KenH, Sarah and All, > > I felt I wanted to write a little on this topic as I know from > experience the absolute necessity of having supportive > Dhamma friends to encourage one to stick with Buddhism for the long > haul. (I am taking it that you mean Kalyana-mitta, Admirable > Friends). Mostly, ordinary friendship means associating with those > to whom one is attracted, whose personality one likes and finds > pleasant, who share the same interests and activities, with whom one > can laugh> > [snip] 23490 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 0:35am Subject: Not such a silly question .... was(Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" < RobK, I wonder why having nibbana as the goal isn't a > good thing to be encouraged? When I first heard of it, and new how > difficult and long the way was - it seemed a comfort, it made > rebirth seem almost like 'travelling eternity'. I even thought it > might be a good thing to do 'just enough', to make enough merit (if > one could find out how much was 'enough') to keep being reborn in > happy conditions. But, in reality, we are trapped on a Ferris > Wheel - going round and round - but going nowhere. When I read of > the development by the Buddha of the Perfections, over aeons, the > stories always seem to imply that he remembered the past lives and > knew what his goal was. We, however, don't remember our past lives, > and seem to trip over the Dhamma by accident. The terms The Noble > Eightfold Path and The Way seem to indicate a direction to travel in, > leading to a destination. This journey will take such a long time > anyway - but surely much longer if one doesn't head for a goal. I > guess the idea of beginningless time is becoming a little > discouraging to me nowadays. > > __________ Dear Christine, Thanks for asking me this so I have the chance to clarify. I think this is an important topic. I wrote: ""I used to think that desire for such lofty goals as nibbana was something benign or even to be encouraged. However we need to be scrutinize very carefully the moments when such thoughts arise to learn whether there is genuine aspiration (aditthana parami). I quote from Nina's book about the parami: <..snip> ...Yes, it is fine to aspire for exalted states but we have to be sincere so that we know what it takes."" ____ What I was trying to say is that chanda arises with lobha and dosa as well as with all kusala states. The chanda which comes with wholesome aspiration to reach the goal is a different order from that which I used to have much of not so many years ago. They look similar in that both have nibbana as conceptual object but one is with lobha and clinging to self. If there is this type then discouragement is bound to come, sooner or later, because lobha and dosa are two sides of the same coin. The wholesome aspiration looks at obstacles along the way with relish so that the harder it gets the more piti ( cf Larry ) and addhitana (determination) and patience and so on grow. Nothing really hinders this type. This is conditioned by wisdom too: ""The commentary to the Cariyapitaka 1) states that the Bodhisatta considers the following: 'Mere dhammas alone exist, devoid of self or of anything pertaining to a self. They arise and pass away in accordance with their conditions. They do not come from anywhere, they do not go anywhere, they are not established anywhere. There is no agency in anything whatsoever. In this way a Bodhisatta becomes fixed in his destiny, bound for enlightenment, irreversible.'""endquote This is the reason to stress much on anatta. It is the key to the door out of samsara. And along the way it is the refuge that increases understanding of the moment. Whenever there is any discouragement there is the taking of concepts associated with I and my and mine. So such feelings show us where clinging , wrong view and conceit lie. Fine to have those feelings and great if they can help us- by being an object- develop the addhitana(determination) to carry on no matter what comes. robertk 23491 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi James (& Christine & All), --- buddhatrue wrote: > > Could you please explain what the Buddha had prior to enlightenment, > that drove him to achieve enlightenment, and do so without using any > words that relate to desire or control? .... Not sure it’ll be adequate, but I’ll try to summarise the account of key factors in his life as Sumedha. Leaving out desire and control is the easy part. Before I start, Nina recently quoted from the Comy to the Cariyapitaka with regard to one of his last lives as a Bodhisatta which I hope you won’t mind my re-quoting here: “He had the highest degree of contentment with little, he delighted in tranquillity, he had no concern for his body and his life, because his aim was equanimity. He practised the abandonment of defilements to the highest degree, he endured the ugly deeds from others. He had the firm determination to diminish the defilements which were opposed to the requisites of enlightenment by evenmindedness in all respects. This caused him to be without excess, to be impartial towards others who supported him and to those who did not. He was like an arahat and hence he did not cling to the vicissitudes of life. He reached the peak of the perfection of equanimity, and as such it is pre-eminently a perfection leading to the awakening of a Buddha (Buddha påramí).” ***** In his life as Sumedha, when he made his great aspiration or Wish before Dipankara Buddha (a hundred thousand aeons and four incalculables previously) he was already ripe for enlightenment. Sariputta asked the Buddha what his resolve had been at this time. We read (Chronicle of Buddhas and Comy) about his appreciation of the noble truths. He appreciated ‘this putrid body’ as being a ‘conglomeration of various ordures’ which reminds me of the Comy to the Maharahulavada sutta, Nina is translating. Earlier her Comy translation discussed how what is taken for the body are the various elements and so we see that this (direct) understanding is essential for overcoming desires on account of the sense doors, I think. Sumedha the Wise (as he was known) gave away all his possessions and the household life, “from content and detachment”. He attained all jhanas and attainments. Later after Dipankara Buddha’s enlightenment, Sumedha lay down in his path and knew it was possible to be enlightened himself, by made his resolve to become a future Buddha by his act of merit, i.e sacrificing his life to Dipankara Buddha. Chris, we read about all the special conditions - human, male, ripe for enlightenment, in the presence of a living Buddha, gone forth, obtained the 8 attainments and 5 super-knowledges, special sacrifice and great resolve that are essential for becoming a Bodhisatta. For more details, you may like to review these posts, mostly by Nina: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18577 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22341 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22428 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22462 ***** Dipankara Buddha knew his aspiration and resolve would succeed when he saw him and could foresee his future life as Gotama Buddha. Sumedha then determined on the Perfections, starting with dana (generosity)as we read about in the Cariyapitaka and Jatakas. Without the development of all of these qualities through all those aeons, we would not be able to hear the Teachings today, as I understand. Hope to hear your comments and any other explanations as well. With metta, Sarah ===== 23492 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends Hello Azita, and all, I'm glad you had a happy day - my birthday was a few weeks ago, in late June. Do you have hibernating snakes up your way? - I've spent this afternoon in my study typing on the computer while sitting cross- legged on the chair (and keeping a broom handy) after seeing a nearly two metre greeny-brown snake slither across the carpet around the fax machine and behind a pile of articles on the floor. I'm assuming he came in because of the winter weather to hibernate (or am I getting confused with bears?), and I'm assuming it was a tree snake not a rough scale snake because it didn't strike at me. I put the dog out and put a towel under the door so the snake could'nt get into the rest of the house. I opened the floor to ceiling casement window, and hoped for the best. I went out for a while, and when I came back, he slithered across the floor behind me. So I went out again. Next time I came back, I couldn't find the snake at all (looking behind cabinets etc. with a torch). Not finding him, I went to close the window and came face to face with him between the two panes of glass. Such a delicate small head and large dark eyes, his tongue poking out and tasting the air. I had palpitations trying to wrestle a jammed window closed and encourage him to go down and out, not up and in. But being a tree snake (I think) he only wanted to go up. We came to an arrangement - I put both hoppers up with a small gap at the top of the outside one, and he graciously accepted the escape route. So, things worked out in the end and he is now outside in the trees or the gutter or in the roof. The interesting thing to me is the different way I viewed him compared to how I used to view snakes in my pre-buddhist days. Not much fear, and no revulsion. It even crossed my mind that I, too, may have been or may yet be a snake one day. Metta might be a wonderful thing, but it was not possible to engender the feeling towards the snake when fear, however slight, was holding centre stage. I could only try to act kindly. O.K. - got that off my mind - thanks for the debrief - now I can settle back to dhamma study again. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > --- dear Christine, > > the following passages have made for wonderful reading for me. > Thanks. > A happy birthday too, I've just had mine, and I know you and I > have close-together birthdays. Hope it's a good, full of kusala and > Kalana-Mittas type of day. > May the Ferris Wheel be joyful, > Azita Imogen [bec I imagine things are as they aren't] > 23493 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends was( Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Christine & Azita, Happy birthdays and many kalyana-mitta returns;-) May we all learn to appreciate and develop the qualities of kalyana-mittas. I’m prompted to add a little to your fine collection, Chris; 1.A couple of comy notes B.Bodhi gives to the sutta you quote on ‘Half the Holy Life”, SN p.1890-1: “Kalyaa.namittataa kalyaa.nasahaayataa kalyaa.nasampa’nkataa . The three are synonymous. Spk: When he was in seclusion Ananda thought, “This practice of an ascetic succeeds for one who relies on good friends and on his own manly effort, so half of it depends on good friends and half on one’s own manly effort.” “Spk: with children, it isn’t possible to say, “So much comes from the mother, so much from the father’; the same is true in this case too. One cannot say, “So much of right view, etc, comes from good friends, so much from one’s own manly effort.” The Blessed One says in effect: “The four paths, the four truths, etc, are all rooted in the good friend.” ***** 2.From Comy to the Metta Discourse, Khuddakapaatha (Minor Readings - PTS p289): “Herein he fattens (mejjati) and tends (taayati), thus he is a friend (mitta); the meaning is that by his inclination to welfare he acts as a lubricant (siniyhati) and protects from harm’s coming. The state of a friend (mittassa bhaavo) is love (mettaa = lovingkindness). ***** 3.From the Netti-ppakara.na’m (The Guide - PTS p.216): “ ‘Bhikkhus, when a good friend possesses seven factors he should never be rejected by one as long as life lasts, even if one is sent away and dismissed, even if one is driven away (panujjamaanena). What seven? He is endearing, venerable and emulatable (bhaavaniiya), he is willing to talk to one and willing for one to talk with him, and he never exhorts groundlessly (in a manner not in conformity with the True Idea and Outguiding Discipline). When a good friend possesses these seven factors.....even if driven away.’ That is what the Blessed One said. When the Sublime One had said this, he, the Master, said further: ‘Dear, venerale, to be emulated, Who talks to one, and can be talked with, too, Is willing to explain what is profound, And never gives a groundless exhortation: A friend like that may well be served for life By one who is desirous of a friend’.” ***** With metta, Sarah ===== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > Upaddha Sutta 'Half'(of the Holy Life) > > As he was seated to one side, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed > One, "This is half of the holy life, Lord: being a friend with > admirable people, a companion with admirable people, a colleague with > admirable people." > "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Being a friend with > admirable people, a companion with admirable people, a colleague with > admirable people is actually the whole of the holy life. 23494 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi James (& Christine & All), --- buddhatrue wrote: > > Could you please explain what the Buddha had prior to enlightenment, > that drove him to achieve enlightenment, and do so without using any > words that relate to desire or control? .... Not sure it'll be adequate, but I'll try to summarise the account of key factors in his life as Sumedha. Leaving out desire and control is the easy part. Dipankara Buddha knew his aspiration and resolve would succeed when he saw him and could foresee his future life as Gotama Buddha. Sumedha then determined on the Perfections, starting with dana (generosity)as we read about in the Cariyapitaka and Jatakas. Hi Sarah, I'm not going to let myself be pulled into discussing all of this pre- historical conjecture for the Buddha, which I don't believe for a second, because it is entirely beside the point. I want to focus on your phrase "Sumedha then determined on the Perfections". This phrase is ungrammatical, and it is ungrammatical for a specific purpose. I believe that you are purposefully trying to downplay the role of conscious will, desire, and control. This phrase is missing a necessary verb, the verb `to be'. Sumedha had to determine' something' with the Perfections; he had to determine to embody them, reject them, or ignore them. He had some sort of choice which came about because of his desire/will. Not only that, he had control over what his choice was to be. By leaving out a necessary verb, and making the statement ungrammatical (yet oddly esoteric), you make it appear as if everything has happened without a vortex of control. This is not the first time I have noticed this semantic trickery in yours and others posts in this group; all devout followers of A. Sujin. Metta, James 23495 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:57am Subject: Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Victor (& Steve), I may well be a donkey but I can’t add more on the donkey sutta (without any Pali or Comy);-) However, I am quite sure the desire referred to there refers to wholesome chanda and other qualities. Looking at this one, I’m more sure that it is chanda (desire)being referred to: --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Samyutta Nikaya LI.15 > Brahmana Sutta > To Unnabha the Brahman > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn51-015.html ..... Note that this sutta is in the Iddhipaadasa.myutta section of the Mahaavagga (Great Book). It may be helpful to consider more about chanda as an iddhipada which I don’t believe has anything to do with ‘desire’ as we generally know it, but it does relate to the qualities and powers of the Bodhisatta which I just mentioned:-) Following on from the other quote I gave from ‘Cetasikas’ on chanda, we read: “When we develop kusala, chanda may be predominant; it may have predominance over the accompanying dhammas, there are four factors which can be predominant, but only one at a time can be predominant. The four predominant factors (adhipatis) are: chanda, viriya, citta (particular types of citta) and "investigation" or "reflection" (vimamsa, which is panna cetasika) (1 See Dhammasangani 269, and Atthasalini I, Part VII, 212, 213. .......... When these factors have been developed they become the four " Roads to success" (iddhipadas) leading to the attainment of the "supernormal powers" (abhinnas). There are five "supernormal powers" which are developed through jhana (Vis. chapter XIII. The sixth power, which is the extinction of all defilements, is developed through vipassana. Chanda or one of the three other "Roads to success" can be predominant in the development of vipassana (2 The four "Roads to Success" are among the thirty seven factors pertaining to enlightenment, bodhipakkhiya dhammas, Visuddhimagga xxii, 33.).” ***** B.Bodhi also gives this note to the following lines in the first sutta in Iddhipaadasa.myutta, SN: “.....a bhikkhu develops the basis for spiritual power that possesses concentration due to desire and volitional formations of striving....” Note: BB: “....Spk (the Comy) resolves iddhipaada into both iddhiyaa paada.m, “base for spiritual power,” and iddhibhuuta.m paada.m, “base which is piritual power.” Iddhi, from the verb ijjhati - to prosper, to succeed, to flourish - originally meant success, but by the time of the Buddha it had already acquired the special nuance of spiritual success or, even more to the point, spiritual power. This can be of two kinds; success in the exercise of the iddhividha, the supernormal powers, and success in the endeavour to win liberation. The two converge in arahantship, which is both the sixth abhi~n~na (in continuity with the supernormal powers) and the final fruit of the Noble Eightfold Path. A full treatise on the various kinds of idhi mentioned in the canon is at Pa.tis 205-14. The analysis at 51-13 (sutta: Concentration Due to Desire) makes it clear that an iddhipaada contains three main components: concentration (samaadhi), the four volitional formations of striving (padhaanasa’nkhaaraa), and the particular factor responsible for generating concentration - desire (chanda), energy (viriya), mind (citta), and investigation (vima.msaa). While concentration and striving are common to all four idhipaada, it is the last-named factors that differentiate them as fourfold.” ***** Victor, this is all very difficult for me to understand in any thing but the most superficial way. However, it may just show why I think the desire referred to in the development is wholesome chanda. We can also read more about it under adhipati paccaya (predominance condition). Again these are examples of abhidhamma detail in the suttas and why, I think, the understanding of the suttas is not so simple at all. Perhaps Steve can help further with any of the Pali for these terms in the suttas you’ve referred us to. I'd appreciate his or any other input. Look forward to more of your comments too, Victor. Metta, Sarah ====== 23496 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > your phrase "Sumedha then determined on the Perfections". This > phrase is ungrammatical, and it is ungrammatical for a specific > purpose. .... This phrase should read 'Sumedha then determined on developing (or 'perfecting' the Perfections (Parami)'. No trickery of any kind intended nor any self or being:-) Metta, Sarah ====== 23497 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > your phrase "Sumedha then determined on the Perfections". This > > phrase is ungrammatical, and it is ungrammatical for a specific > > purpose. > > .... > This phrase should read 'Sumedha then determined on developing (or > 'perfecting' the Perfections (Parami)'. > > No trickery of any kind intended nor any self or being:-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Hi Sarah, Then there you have the locus of control/choice/desire. Metta, James 23498 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Victor Here's something we agree on! I agree with your observations below about dukkha/suffering. As I understand it, dukkha is a *characteristic of all conditioned phenomena* (sankhara dhammas). Conditioned phenomena are by nature anicca/dukkha/anatta, and nothing can ever change that. Conditioned phenomena are no less 'dukkha' in nature to the enlightened being than they are to the worldling. In fact, almost the opposite, since the enlightened being has clearly seen (and continues to see) conditioned phenomena as anicca/dukkha/anatta, while the worldling has not clearly seen the true nature of conditioned phenomena. Dukkha is also an aspect of the Four Noble Truths. These truths are immutable truths of existence in this realm of conditioned phenomena, and are as true for the enlightened being as they are for the worldling. Again, the enlightened being has experienced the truth of these assertions, while the worldling has not. As you have made clear, conditioned phenomena are not any the less dukkha, nor is the first Noble Truth any the less apparent, because of the attainment of enlightenment. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Howard and all, > > Worldly dhamma is impermanent, dukkha/unsatisfactory, not self, > whether one is uprooted of greed, aversion, and delusion or not. > > When one is uprooted of effluents, he or she is freed from the > round > of rebirth. He or she knows that 'Birth is ended, the holy life > fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' > > However, the conditioned, the worldly dhamma is still impermanent. > It is still unsatisfactory/dukkha. It is still not self. > > Your comments are appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor 23499 From: Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi, James - In a message dated 7/18/03 5:36:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > I'm not going to let myself be pulled into discussing all of this pre- > historical conjecture for the Buddha, which I don't believe for a > second, because it is entirely beside the point. I want to focus on > your phrase "Sumedha then determined on the Perfections". This > phrase is ungrammatical, and it is ungrammatical for a specific > purpose. I believe that you are purposefully trying to downplay the > role of conscious will, desire, and control. This phrase is missing > a necessary verb, the verb `to be'. Sumedha had to determine' > something' with the Perfections; he had to determine to embody them, > reject them, or ignore them. He had some sort of choice which came > about because of his desire/will. Not only that, he had control over > what his choice was to be. By leaving out a necessary verb, and > making the statement ungrammatical (yet oddly esoteric), you make it > appear as if everything has happened without a vortex of control. > This is not the first time I have noticed this semantic trickery in > yours and others posts in this group; all devout followers of A. > Sujin. > > Metta, James > > ============================= Your psychological insight in analyzing the sentence form here may be excellent, but your presupposition of willful intention to mislead is, in my opinion, unfounded. Most of the time, the overwhelming majority of people are quite unaware of what subliminal processes condition the mode of their speech, and while we can form hypotheses about that, we cannot know for certain, unless our telepathic abilities are flawless, nor can we easily distinguish subliminal influence from conscious decision. For friendship's sake, at the very least, it seems to me that benefit of doubt should be given and suspicions put aside. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23500 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH KKT --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > Dear Christine, ... > I think there are two levels > in the Buddha's teachings: > in the first level, ego is considered > a reality. Therefore will, desire, > aspiration, effort are all << real >> > Only in the second level that > one begins to see the illusory > characteristic of the ego. Hmm... This sounds a bit dubious to me ;-)). Can you point to any part of the teachings where 'self' is considered a reality? To my understanding, all moments of kusala are free of the idea of self (although a moment of kusala may of course be preceded by or succeeded by the idea of self). I'd be interested to hear your further commments on this. Jon 23501 From: Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi, James and Sarah - I wrote and posted the following too quickly. I would better have waited for your reply Sarah, and your follow-up, James. I do stick by the content of my post, but I apologize for butting in. With metta to you both, Howard In a message dated 7/18/03 9:17:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 7/18/03 5:36:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > >Hi Sarah, > > > >I'm not going to let myself be pulled into discussing all of this pre- > >historical conjecture for the Buddha, which I don't believe for a > >second, because it is entirely beside the point. I want to focus on > >your phrase "Sumedha then determined on the Perfections". This > >phrase is ungrammatical, and it is ungrammatical for a specific > >purpose. I believe that you are purposefully trying to downplay the > >role of conscious will, desire, and control. This phrase is missing > >a necessary verb, the verb `to be'. Sumedha had to determine' > >something' with the Perfections; he had to determine to embody them, > >reject them, or ignore them. He had some sort of choice which came > >about because of his desire/will. Not only that, he had control over > >what his choice was to be. By leaving out a necessary verb, and > >making the statement ungrammatical (yet oddly esoteric), you make it > >appear as if everything has happened without a vortex of control. > >This is not the first time I have noticed this semantic trickery in > >yours and others posts in this group; all devout followers of A. > >Sujin. > > > >Metta, James > > > > > ============================= > Your psychological insight in analyzing the sentence form here may be > excellent, but your presupposition of willful intention to mislead is, in my > > opinion, unfounded. > Most of the time, the overwhelming majority of people are quite > unaware of what subliminal processes condition the mode of their speech, and > while > we can form hypotheses about that, we cannot know for certain, unless our > telepathic abilities are flawless, nor can we easily distinguish subliminal > influence from conscious decision. For friendship's sake, at the very least, > it seems > to me that benefit of doubt should be given and suspicions put aside. > > With metta, > Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23502 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Larry, I completely agree. This does not mean that there is a specific order of their arising. This does not mean that the citta that develops insight stage by stage cannot be with upekkha and without piti. When we study texts about concentration as proximate cause for panna, we have to look at the context. Nina. op 17-07-2003 01:04 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Nina, > > One more point. Piti (joyful interest) is one of the 7 enlightenment > factors (bojjhanga). The others are: sati (mindfulness), invesigation of > dhamma, energy, tranquility, concentration, equanimity. > > "Because they lead to enlightenment, therefore they are called > enlightenment factors" (S XLVI, 5). > > Larry 23503 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Ken, I don't think it is misleading to talk about control of self, or self-control. In fact, the Buddha taught about self-control. If you do a search on "self-control" in www.accesstoinsight.org with www.google.com, you can find many references to self-control in the discourses. For examples, Sutta Nipata I.10 Alavaka Sutta To the Alavaka Yakkha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp1- 10.html Dhammapada 12 The Self http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html Dhammapada I Pairs http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp/01.html Sutta Nipata II.14 Dhammika Sutta Dhammika http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp2- 14.html Anguttara Nikaya VII.60 Kodhana Sutta An Angry Person http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an07-060.html Dhammapada XIX The Judge http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp/19.html Sutta Nipata II.4 Maha-mangala Sutta Blessings http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp2- 04b.html While one can not make the conditioned permanent, satisfactory, one's self, one can refrain/control one's self from the unwholesome actions in body, speech, and mind, one can control one's self to cultivate what is wholesome. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: [snip] > Hello Victor, > > Yes, I think that is exactly what we are being taught. > If consciousness were self, then it would be possible to > decree, "Let consciousness be permanent and not subject > to suffering," and so on for each of the other four > khandhas." (I'm sure you know the sutta I'm trying to > remember here.) But in reality, no-one, not even a Buddha > has control. > > > > Do you mean that one can refrain and control self from > > unwholesome action in body, speech, and mind? > > > I'm not sure I follow that question. Wouldn't it be > misleading to talk about control of the self, when we are > trying to understand that self is an illusion? > > "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; > The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there; > Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it; > The Path is but no traveller on it is seen." > (Vis. XVI) > > If I have missed the point of your question, please give > me another try. :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H 23504 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 0:13pm Subject: Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Sarah, Thank you for your reply and references. I appreciate it. Desire itself can be quite neutral in terms of being skillful/wholesome or unskillful/unwholesome. It is what/whom one desires for makes the difference. Thus the word "desire" needs to be understood in its proper context. Pali words "chanda" and "iccha" can be translated as "desire". However, each Pali original has it's own connotation. Thank you again for your reply. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor (& Steve), > [snip] > > Look forward to more of your comments too, Victor. > > Metta, > > Sarah 23505 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 4:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Dear Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: KKT --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > Dear Christine, ... > I think there are two levels > in the Buddha's teachings: > in the first level, ego is considered > a reality. Therefore will, desire, > aspiration, effort are all << real >> > Only in the second level that > one begins to see the illusory > characteristic of the ego. Hmm... This sounds a bit dubious to me ;-)). Can you point to any part of the teachings where 'self' is considered a reality? To my understanding, all moments of kusala are free of the idea of self (although a moment of kusala may of course be preceded by or succeeded by the idea of self). I'd be interested to hear your further commments on this. Jon KKT: The reason is very simple. All the monks and laymen the Buddha taught were not yet Arahat. Therefore they were supposed still possessing an ego. Thus the teachings the Buddha addressed them should be in accord with their reality of 'self'. BTW, do you notice that the second sermon of the Buddha that is the Anattalakkhana Sutta (The Discourse of Not Self) was delivered to the group of five ascetics Kondanna who were already SOTAPANNA ! This shows that such a teaching in this Sutta is not for simple worldlings! All the five became Arahat after hearing this sermon. Peace, KKT 23506 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends Dear Christine, Thank you for your post and good quotes. I like this stanza too very much. I enjoyed your story about the snake. Friendship for the snake. I had a similar experience in Bgk, breakfast with a snake sleeping on a chair beside me, while I was listening to A. Sujin's radio program. The cook was upset, he was not so harmless, but I did not mind. Sometimes good friends help without knowing it, by giving the right text, during discussion in this forum, just what one needed in times of trouble. Nina. op 18-07-2003 04:10 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > "The Mahamangala Sutta, the Great Discourse on Blessings, is one of > the most popular Buddhist suttas, .... In the very first stanza of his > reply the Buddha states that the highest blessing comes from avoiding > fools and associating with the wise (asevana ca balanam, panditanan > ca sevana). 23507 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends Chris Thanks for the account of this interesting indicent and your thoughts on it. --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Azita, and all, ... > Do you have hibernating snakes up your way? - I've spent this > afternoon in my study typing on the computer while sitting cross- > legged on the chair (and keeping a broom handy) after seeing a > nearly > two metre greeny-brown snake slither across the carpet around the > fax machine and behind a pile of articles on the floor. I'm ... > The interesting thing to me > is the different way I viewed him compared to how I used to view > snakes in my pre-buddhist days. Not much fear, and no revulsion. > It even crossed my mind that I, too, may have been or may yet be a > snake > one day. Metta might be a wonderful thing, but it was not possible > to engender the feeling towards the snake when fear, however slight, > was holding centre stage. I could only try to act kindly. > O.K. - got that off my mind - thanks for the debrief - now I can > settle back to dhamma study again. :-) Well done! I think few would have managed to remain as calm in the circumstances as you did. Yes, it's interesting what a difference it makes just knowing that the 'usual' reaction is strong akusala and so not to be encouraged/developed. This can already be a great help in our daily lives. By the way, even though there was no appreciable metta at that time, there might still have been moments of metta conditioned by the useful reflection that obviously went on at the time. Perhaps on some future occasion those moments will be more apparent. Or then again, perhaps not (the good thing is, it doesn't really matter ;-)). Jon 23508 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sumedha's vow (was, Re: Not such a silly question....) James --- buddhatrue wrote: ... > Then there you have the locus of control/choice/desire. I thought you might be interested to see the relevant passage about the vow made by Sumedha in the presence of the Buddha Dipankara. This is taken from the introduction to the Jataka, and is said to have been related by the Buddha to his disciples. Note that Sumedha was already on the verge of enlightenment at the time of making the vow (a fact of which he was fully aware -- 'To-day, if such were my desire, I my corruptions might consume....'), this being one of the 8 conditions necessary for successful fulfilment of such a vow (see footnote 2 below). I think this puts Sumedha's vow in a different category to most people's wish/determinatioin to have more kusala or greater understanding. Jon ********************** http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits001.htm § 1. THE STORY OF SUMEDHA. 62. Then loosened I my matted hair, And, spreading out upon the mud My dress of bark and cloak of skin, I laid me down upon my face. 63. "Let now on me The Buddha tread, With the disciples of his train; Can I but keep him from the mire, To me great merit shall accrue." 64. While thus I lay upon the ground,[1] Arose within me many thoughts: "To-day, if such were my desire, I my corruptions might consume. 65. "But why thus in an unknown guise Should I the Doctrine's fruit secure? Omniscience first will I achieve, And be a Buddha in the world. 66. "Or why should I, a valorous man, The ocean seek to cross alone? Omniscience first will I achieve, And men and gods convey across. 67. "Since now I make this earnest wish, In presence of this Best of Men, Omniscience sometime I'll achieve, And multitudes convey across. 68. "I'll rebirth's circling stream arrest, Destroy existence's three modes; I'll climb the sides of Doctrine's ship, And men and gods convey across. 69. "A human being,[2] male of sex, Who saintship gains, a Teacher meets, As hermit lives, and virtue loves, Nor lacks resolve, nor fiery zeal, Can by these eight conditions joined, Make his most earnest wish succeed." 70. Dîpamkara, Who Knew All Worlds, Recipient of Offerings, Came to a halt my pillow near, And thus addressed the multitudes: 71. "Behold ye now this monk austere, His matted locks, his penance fierce! Lo! he, unnumbered cycles hence, A Buddha in the world shall be. [1] As he lay in the mud, he opened his eyes again, and gazing upon the Buddha-glory of Dîpamkara, The Possessor of the Ten Forces, he reflected as follows: "If I so wished, I might burn up all my corruptions, and as novice follow with the congregation when they enter the city of Ramma; but I do not want to burn up my corruptions and enter Nirvana unknown to any one. What now if I, like Dîpamkara, were to acquire the supreme wisdom, were to cause multitudes to go on board the ship of Doctrine and cross the ocean of the round of rebirth, and were afterwards to pass into Nirvana! That would be something worthy of me!" [2] For it is only a human being that can successfully wish to be a Buddha; ... Of men it is he, and only he, who is in a fit condition by the attainment of saintship in that same existence, that can successfully make the wish.... ********************** 23509 From: peterdac4298 Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 3:54am Subject: Off to Thailand Hi All Just to say that I'm off to Thailand. Right now I'm waiting on the last leg of my flight at Brunei Int. with about fifteen minutes to go before assembling at the depature gate, having already completed sixteen hours from Heathrow. I doubt if I'll get onto the 'net for a long time. I'm hoping to be taken on by a forest monatery for training. To be taken seriously, a commitement of five years is the minimum anyone will consider. However, if an opportunity arrises before then, I'll certainly try to take advantage of it. In the meantime, I have Nina's book to work through and will try to cover other titles from Zolag. Sorry I did'nt get the chance to meet up with Alan... Tannoy is announcing my flight, so must go. Please excuse spelling, no time for spell check. Mettacittena Peter Da Costa 23510 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi Howard (& James), I’ve been tongue-tied today, literally, after cutting my tongue on a piece of glass in restaurant meal. Thankfully, it’s much better now and I’m able to write without opening my mouth;-) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James and Sarah - > > I wrote and posted the following too quickly. I would better have > > waited for your reply Sarah, and your follow-up, James. I do stick by > the content > of my post, but I apologize for butting in. ..... As far as I was concerned, I appreciated your comments and am always glad when you butt in. I had intended to drop the subject and as James implied, my original words here sounded a little unnatural: “Sumedha then determined on the Perfections, starting with dana (generosity)as we read about in the Cariyapitaka and Jatakas.” As I’m writing anyway, let me give the full passage from the Comy to the Chronicle of Buddhas, The Clarifier of Sweet Meaning, which I was skimming through as I wrote my summary. Sumedha is reflecting to himself here: “Wise Sumedha, you, from now onward should fulfill the first perfection, that of Giving. For as a jar of water that has ben overturned discharges all the water and takes none of it back, even so, recking of neither wealth nor fame nor wife and children nor any of the limbs, but giving completely of everything wished for for the prosperity of all supplicants, while seated at the root of the Tree of Awakening and thinking, ‘you will be a buddha,’” he firmly and resolutely DETERMINED ON THE FIRST PERFECTION, that of Giving.” (PTS, p150) ***** I read ‘determined on’ as meaning ‘resolved on’ as in “he determined on a new colour scheme for his house”. As RobK has been writing, anything we read in the texts, regardless of conventional or ‘ultimate’ language should be understood in the light of anatta and conditioned phenomena as in the quote he added (below). Thanks again Howard and also James for keeping me on my toes. With metta, Sarah ======= ""The commentary to the Cariyapitaka 1) states that the Bodhisatta considers the following: 'Mere dhammas alone exist, devoid of self or of anything pertaining to a self. They arise and pass away in accordance with their conditions. They do not come from anywhere, they do not go anywhere, they are not established anywhere. There is no agency in anything whatsoever. In this way a Bodhisatta becomes fixed in his destiny, bound for enlightenment, irreversible.'""endquote ======================================================= 23511 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Peter Congratulations on making the effort to get to Thailand for Dhamma study. I wish you success in finding those with good understanding. Any time you have the opportunity, we would be happy to hear how things are going. Please feel free to ask if you would like any names or addresses. Between the members of this list there is a lot of Thailand experience, covering all 'schools' of dhamma contacts. Jon --- peterdac4298 wrote: > Hi All > > Just to say that I'm off to Thailand. Right now I'm waiting on the > last leg of my flight at Brunei Int. with about fifteen minutes to > go before assembling at the depature gate, having already completed > sixteen hours from Heathrow. > > I doubt if I'll get onto the 'net for a long time. I'm hoping to > be > taken on by a forest monatery for training. To be taken seriously, > a commitement of five years is the minimum anyone will consider. > However, if an opportunity arrises before then, I'll certainly try > to take advantage of it. > > In the meantime, I have Nina's book to work through and will try to > cover other titles from Zolag. Sorry I did'nt get the chance to > meet up with Alan... > > Tannoy is announcing my flight, so must go. > > Please excuse spelling, no time for spell check. > > Mettacittena > > Peter Da Costa 23512 From: Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 3:51pm Subject: more on piti Hi Nina, Here is some more on piti. Note that ~Nanamoli translates it as happiness, ~Nanatiloka as joyful interest, and Bodhi as zest and the application is to right concentration, jhana. Vism. IV, 101: Accordingly, (a) this happiness and this bliss are of this jhana, or in this jhana; so in this way this jhana is qualified by the words "with happiness and bliss, [and also born of seclusion]. Or alternatively: (b) the words "happiness and bliss" (piitisukha.m) can be taken as 'the happiness and the bliss' independently, like 'the Law and the Discipline (dhammavinaya)', and so then it can be taken as seclusion-born happiness-and-bliss of this jhana, or in this jhana; so in this way it is the happiness and bliss [rather than the jhana] that are born of seclusion. For just the words 'born of seclusion' can [as at (a)] be taken as qualifying the word 'jhana', so too they can be taken here [as at (b)] as qualifying the expression 'happiness and bliss', and then that [total expression] is predicated of this [jhana]. So it is also correct to call 'happiness-and-bliss born-of-seclusion' a single expression. In the Vibhanga it is stated in the way beginning 'This bliss accompanied by this happiness' (Vibh. 257). The meaning should be regarded in the same way here too. L: So it seems to me the logic of the chain of proximate causes as presented in this book (regardless of the validity of the 'proximate cause' designation) is: joyful interest (piti), born of seclusion from sensual desires, is the proximate cause of concentration, and concentration is the proximate cause of understanding (panna). Would you agree with this? My original question seems to have been what is the proximate cause of piti vis-a-vis the arising of panna and, it seems to me a reasonable answer is 'seclusion from sensual desires'. Do you have any other thoughts on this? Larry 23513 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:44pm Subject: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha Dear Group, Just an update of some news stories after the Ordination of Theravada Bhikkhunis on the 28 February 2003 in Sri Lanka in a properly constituted ceremony by Ten Bhikkhunis and a Twelve Bhikkhus. At that time, four Bhikkhunis were given Higher Ordination. They are: Dhammananda Bhikkhuni, a former Thai Professor of Buddhism; Sudhamma Bhikkhuni, a former US lawyer; Gunasari Bhikkhuni, a doctor and Burmese-born US citizen, and Saccavadi Bhikkhuni, a Burmese philosophy graduate. Letter previously forwarded to Dhamma-List by J. Short, written by Bhikkhuni Sudhamma shortly after her Higher Ordination http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhamma-list/message/36585 Bhikkhuni Sudhamma photo and story in American news http://greenvilleonline.com/news/2003/07/14/2003071410087.htm Bhikkuni Dhamananda photo and story about temple in Bangkok http://www.peacecouncil.org/csmonitor.html http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/globalpers/gp051403.htm http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/DI19Ae02.html http://search.bangkokpost.co.th/bkkpost/2003/mar2003/bp20030308/news/0 8Mar2003_news12.html (You will need to cut and paste this URL) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1814195.stm http://www.dailymirror.lk/archives/dmr120202/News/divor.html http://www.geocities.com/suan_nok/khaothai/2546-04/THAS-Bhikkhuni.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 23514 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:59pm Subject: Re: Bhikkhuni Sangha/Photos of Ordination Dear Group, For anyone interested photos of the actual ordination ceremony can be found under 'update news' at the Thai Bhikkhunis website http://www.thaibhikkhunis.org/englishindex.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 23515 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 2:43am Subject: Re: Not such a silly question...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: ============================= > Your psychological insight in analyzing the sentence form here may be > excellent, but your presupposition of willful intention to mislead is, in my > opinion, unfounded. > Most of the time, the overwhelming majority of people are quite > unaware of what subliminal processes condition the mode of their speech, and while > we can form hypotheses about that, we cannot know for certain, unless our > telepathic abilities are flawless, nor can we easily distinguish subliminal > influence from conscious decision. For friendship's sake, at the very least, it seems > to me that benefit of doubt should be given and suspicions put aside. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, I don't think that I was stating that anyone was trying to be malicious, only misleading…I believe there is a difference between the two. You are quite correct when you state that most people are unaware of the subliminal processes that condition their speech, in this case I was calling attention to those processes. I have noticed that there is a group of people in this group, a sub group if you will, which all use English in a very misleading way; one way is to leave out the verb `to be' so that it appears if actions or decisions aren't done by anyone…that they just appear as if by magic. There are some other uses of the English language and its combination with Pali terms, especially panna and accumulations, which make it appear as if any given person comes about an understanding of the dhamma by magic (or otherworldly impetus) and not by any individual choice or action. I believe that this pattern of speech has developed in this subgroup in order to explain/justify certain beliefs within the group and this speech is also used to argue this point of view with others. When language is manipulated in such a way, either consciously or subconsciously, it is semantic trickery and should be avoided at all costs. I don't believe that my calling attention to this in any way reflects on my feelings of friendship or loyalty/goodwill with any of the members of this group. If they feel that way, they are mistaken. I don`t have any doubt or suspensions to put aside, I have only stated what I have observed. Metta, James ps. I don't consider your observation butting in and I am glad that you have made it. Others might have also been thinking the same thing. 23516 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 6:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting into practice Dave These are good questions and worth considering well. I agree with the helpful answers given already (from memory, by Kom, KenH and Azita, and perhaps others), but would like to add a further thought or two. Dave: "While I can, at an academic/conceptual level "understand" what the theory is, my question is, how are they [cittas] experienced? " Jon: Yes, understanding comes at different levels. Correct understanding at the intellectual/theoretical level is a necessary precondition to understanding at the experiential level. Understanding at the experiential level is described in the texts as seeing dhammas as they actually are. This again comes at different levels. Namas must first be seen as namas and rupas as rupas. For example, seeing-consciousness is the nama that experiences visible object, different from the rupa that is the visible object that is experienced by that consciousness and different from the nama/consciousness that thinks about the visible object that is seen. Dave: "With practice, do you actually discern the different elements? " Jon: According to the teachings, different elements/dhammas can be seen as they really are. This is what is meant by the development of insight. It is important to remember, however, that the development of insight is a gradual, step-by-step process, and that it happens by the development of the right conditions, not by willing it to happen or by following a certain form of 'practice'. The arising and falling away of dhammas (which you mention in your question) is a relatively advanced level of understanding. Before that stage can be reached, there must be the understanding of namas as namas, rupas as rupas. Dave: "Is it possible to separate "sound" from "barking dog"?" Jon: Only insight/panna can experience the element that is sound as sound (audible object), different from the concept of 'barking dog' (a mental object). Again, any understanding that is developed accrues gradually and by its appropriate conditions. This means that any outcome in the form of 'separation' of elements/dhammas, when it occurs, will do so only gradually and spasmodically, i.e., naturally by conditions. When there is the intention of experiencing sound as something different from barking dog, this is not likely to be insight, in my view. Dave: "It's been my impression that many here are not big on meditation. Is there another way to train the mind to break each moment apart into these elementary cittas?" Jon: I would simply say that there is no way other than what is explained in the texts. It is by properly understanding the suttas and applying that understanding that insight is developed. Personally, I don't read the texts as being 'big on meditation' ;-)), but this is something that each person has to resolve for him- or herself by a careful study of the texts. I hope this helps. Jon --- dwlemen wrote: > Everyone, > > I have a question about the Abhidhamma, as discussed here. From > what > I've read here, there are cittas that arise and fall away. While I > can, at an academic/conceptual level "understand" what the theory > is, my question is, how are they experienced? > > With practice, do you actually discern the different elements? Is > it possible to seperate "sound" from "barking dog"? > > It's been my impression that many here are not big on meditation. > Is > there another way to train the mind to break each moment apart into > these elementary cittas? > > As always, I look forward to any and all insight you good people > can throw my way! :-) > > Peace, > > > Dave 23517 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH KKT --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > Dear Jon, ... > KKT: The reason is very simple. > > All the monks and laymen > the Buddha taught were not > yet Arahat. Therefore they were > supposed still possessing an ego. > Thus the teachings the Buddha > addressed them should be in > accord with their reality of 'self'. But didn't the Buddha spent his life explaining to people why the perceptions they held were erroneous, especially perceptions about dhammas as being 'self'? If so, then it would not be correct to say that he assumed or accepted any 'reality of self' for the purpose of instruction ;-)). > BTW, do you notice that the > second sermon of the Buddha > that is the Anattalakkhana Sutta > (The Discourse of Not Self) > was delivered to the group > of five ascetics Kondanna > who were already SOTAPANNA ! > > This shows that such a teaching in > this Sutta is not for simple worldlings! > > All the five became Arahat > after hearing this sermon. Thanks for this interesting point. It confirms that the teachings on anatta are deep and difficult to grasp. Jon 23518 From: Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi, James - In a message dated 7/20/03 5:44:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > I don't think that I was stating that anyone was trying to be > malicious, only misleading…I believe there is a difference between > the two. You are quite correct when you state that most people are > unaware of the subliminal processes that condition their speech, in > this case I was calling attention to those processes. I have noticed > that there is a group of people in this group, a sub group if you > will, which all use English in a very misleading way; one way is to > leave out the verb `to be' so that it appears if actions or decisions > aren't done by anyone…that they just appear as if by magic. There > are some other uses of the English language and its combination with > Pali terms, especially panna and accumulations, which make it appear > as if any given person comes about an understanding of the dhamma by > magic (or otherworldly impetus) and not by any individual choice or > action. I believe that this pattern of speech has developed in this > subgroup in order to explain/justify certain beliefs within the group > and this speech is also used to argue this point of view with > others. When language is manipulated in such a way, either > consciously or subconsciously, it is semantic trickery and should be > avoided at all costs. I don't believe that my calling attention to > this in any way reflects on my feelings of friendship or > loyalty/goodwill with any of the members of this group. If they feel > that way, they are mistaken. I don`t have any doubt or suspensions > to put aside, I have only stated what I have observed. > > Metta, James > ps. I don't consider your observation butting in and I am glad that > you have made it. Others might have also been thinking the same > thing. > > ============================= A few comments: First of all, I thank you very much for your postscript. I appreciate your taking my comments as remarks made by a friend to a friend. Secondly, I did think that your psychological analysis showed good insight, and I agreed that the language Sarah had used suggested an (unconscious) avoidance. [It turns out, however, that the further clarification she made shows that the language (of "determined on") didn't actually originate with Sarah, but with a commentary.] My third comment pertains to your writing "I don't think that I was stating that anyone was trying to be malicious, only misleading…I believe there is a difference between the two." Yes, there is. Actually, I didn't use the word 'malicious' and didn't mean to suggest that you implied maliciousness but only a conscious intention to mislead, and I pointed out that, without clear evidence to the contrary, it is best to assume that if there is deceptive language adopted, the basis of it is most likely not conscious. [It turns out, in this case, as I already noted, that there wasn't even any self-deception involved, but merely an innocent continuation of awkward terminology used in the translation of a commentary.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23519 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends Hi Nina, I'm all for adosa, of course, but remember that the Buddha told his bhikkhus to avoid poisonous snakes (among other things)--sound advice for laypeople, too, I think. Do be careful... mike ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends > I had a > similar experience in Bgk, breakfast with a snake sleeping on a chair beside > me, while I was listening to A. Sujin's radio program. The cook was upset, > he was not so harmless, but I did not mind. 23520 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 4:54 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... > I've been tongue-tied today, literally, after cutting my tongue on a piece > of glass in restaurant meal. And your husband a lawyer--they must be scared to death...! > "Wise Sumedha, you, from now onward should fulfill the first perfection, > that of Giving. For as a jar of water that has ben overturned discharges > all the water and takes none of it back, even so, recking of neither > wealth nor fame nor wife and children nor any of the limbs, but giving > completely of everything wished for for the prosperity of all supplicants, > while seated at the root of the Tree of Awakening and thinking, 'you will > be a buddha,'" he firmly and resolutely DETERMINED ON THE FIRST > PERFECTION, that of Giving." (PTS, p150) Webster's dictionary gives the synonym for 'resolve' for 'determine'--sounds to me like this is the sense in which it's translated here. mike 23521 From: Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 10:04am Subject: study question Hi all, I'm ready to go with a study of the third section of Visuddhimagga ("Understanding") but I don't know how to proceed. Ideally I would just type out sections of the text but there is some concern about copyright infringement. Alternatively, I could summarize sections mostly in my own words but that would come out rather clipped and controversial. This doesn't seem satisfactory to me. Any of you teachers have better ideas? Would someone like to contact BPS to seek permission to quote extensively in an internet study group? Larry 23522 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Dear Larry, I don't think copyright should be a problem here as you're only quoting for the sake of study and discussion. Early this year I had the same concern about infringing on PTS copyright in using a research article by K.R. Norman on the word 'apilapati'. I wrote to PTS about this and on Apr. 4th, I received the following response from the General Secretary, Dr. Rupert Gethin: << Sorry for taking so long to respond to this query. In my view quoting from the article in the context of an on-line discussion forum -- even to the extent of quoting the whole chunk on apilapati -- does not infringe PTS copyright and does not require formal permission. The section on apilapati is only about 15% of the whole; the quotation is for legitimate scholarly discussion. If the whole article was in effect published on a website, then that would require formal permission. Hope this helps. >> So, as long as you quote only small portions at a time and you don't publish whole chapters on a website, you should be fine. If you'd like to include the corresponding Pali text beneath the section you type out, you could send me offlist what you have typed and I'll add in the Pali and send back to you before you post to the list. Although we're not doing a translation of the Maha Tika, I could try identifying the words and phrases that are commented on in Vism. and bring to light some comments that are easy to understand and might be of interest. It is just too difficult and time-consuming to translate Dhammapala's formidable work. One suggestion on the presentation might be to go slow, just one small section or paragraph at a time and post the next one when no further discussion has taken place for several days or longer, meaning that the discussion on the current passage seems to have ended and it's time to move on to the next one. Another suggestion might be to first go through XIV.1-32, then the last chapter (XXIII) on the benefits in developing understanding, and then, if there is still interest, continue on from XIV.33 for a detailed study of the aggregates. Best wishes, Jim > Hi all, > > I'm ready to go with a study of the third section of Visuddhimagga > ("Understanding") but I don't know how to proceed. Ideally I would just > type out sections of the text but there is some concern about copyright > infringement. Alternatively, I could summarize sections mostly in my own > words but that would come out rather clipped and controversial. This > doesn't seem satisfactory to me. Any of you teachers have better ideas? > Would someone like to contact BPS to seek permission to quote > extensively in an internet study group? > > Larry 23523 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] more on piti Dear Larry, You quote about piti and samadhi is in the context of jhana. Secluded from sense desires: we see how many conditions have to be fulfilled to develop jhana. Your quoted passage is not about the development of insight. In another passage it is said concentration is the proximate cause of panna. We have to study: what type of concentration and for whom. Nina. op 20-07-2003 00:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > So it seems to me the logic of the chain of proximate causes as > presented in this book (regardless of the validity of the 'proximate > cause' designation) is: joyful interest (piti), born of seclusion from > sensual desires, is the proximate cause of concentration, and > concentration is the proximate cause of understanding (panna). Would you > agree with this? 23524 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:57am Subject: Perfections. Epilogue 1. Perfections. Epilogue 1. Epilogue The Defilements of the Perfections. There are defilements of the ten perfections when attachment arises, when there is enjoyment and clinging. When taken separately, the following is explained: ³Taken separately, discriminating thoughts (vikappa) over gifts and recipients are the defilement of the perfection of giving.² Sometimes when we perform deeds of generosity we select the receiver or we have discriminating thoughts about the gifts, by attachment, aversion, fear or delusion. Then the perfection of generosity is defiled, it is not pure. The perfection of generosity should be developed towards all beings, without discrimination. However, if we have discriminating thoughts over gifts and recipients, we should investigate the characteristic of the perfection of generosity. At such moments it is defiled, it is not as pure as it should be. We should have a refined knowledge of the perfections in daily life. They have to be developed life after life in the cycle of birth and death so that they reach fulfilment. We read with regard to the perfection of morality: ³Discriminating thoughts over beings and times are the defilement of the perfection of virtue.² Sometimes we can observe morality towards particular persons, such as people we respect, our parents and so on. We may observe morality by showing respect to them in our gestures and speech, but we cannot do the same to other people. Or we may have discriminating thoughts as to the time of observing morality, we observe it only on Uposatha day [1] or a particular day we select to observe the precepts, and then we may believe that we are perfect in morality, although at other days we do not observe morality. That is the defilement of the perfection of virtue or morality. Footnote: 1. Uposatha day is a day of vigilance, which is the fool-moon day, the new-moon day, and the days of the first and the last moon-quarter. Laypeople usually visit on these days the monasteries and observe five or eight precepts. 23525 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:57am Subject: My time with A. Sujin. 6. Dear Kio, you wrote: How skillfully did she bring the technical matter/Abidhamma–if I may say so- into the living/daily practice? Any specific event the you can highlight? My time with A. Sujin. 6. I left Thailand after almost five years, but there were opportunities to return many times and take part in pilgrimages to India and Sri Lanka together with A. Sujin. She taught at the Thai language school to foreigners and several of them took an interest in the teachings. Among them were the late Bhikkhu Dhammadharo and Jonothan Abbot. Later on I also met Sarah who visited me from England. I found discussions on the Dhamma very useful since these helped me to clear up misunderstandings about nama and rupa. I had correspondance with people all over the world and this also helped me to clarify for myself the meaning of satipatthana in daily life. People are always wondering how to act in order to have more understanding. A. Sujin would stress that we should not think of ourselves, and that we become less selfish by paying more attention to the needs of others. This is a simple advice, but it is very basic. We cling to ourselves all the time, but the aim is detachment from the idea of self. If we are always selfish, how can we become detached? On all the India trips she would speak about the perfections which should be developed together with satipatthana. Generosity, metta, patience are essential qualities that should be developed, they are conditions for thinking less of ourselves. I learnt a great deal from my Thai friends on these trips. I noticed how alert they were to help others, even with small gestures. When we are sitting with others at the table for a meal, we can notice whether we take hold of dishes or reach for food only with the idea of wanting things for ourselves, or whether we are also attentive to the needs of others. I began to understand that there are countless moments of thinking of ourselves. I learnt in the situation of daily life that when kusala citta arises, there is a short moment of detachment. However, very shortly after kusala citta we are likely to cling to an idea of ³my kusala². Generosity is only a perfection if we do not expect anything for ourselves, if it leads to less clinging. The aim of the development of perfections is detachment, eradication of defilements. A. Sujin would often remind us of the application of the Dhamma in the situation, reminding us that at each moment there is a new situation. Each moment is conditioned. Whatever we experience through the senses, be it pleasant or unpleasant is conditioned by kamma. Once during a pilgrimage we stayed in a Thai Temple where different rooms were assigned to our group. I received the worst room, without bathroom and full of moquitos. I could hardly sleep and the next day I complained about this. I was used to having Vip treatment in the diplomatic service but A. Sujin helped me to see that unpleasant experiences are conditioned. Nama is nama and rupa is rupa, and it is not important what status of life people have. She asked me whether I was not glad afterwards to have those experiences. I agreed because now I found such experiences a good lesson. She helped us to understand kamma and vipaka in the situation. When people believed that they should try to be in another situation, different from the present one, in order to have more conditions for sati, A. Sujin explained that seeing here is the same as seeing in another place, hearing here is the same as hearing in another place. Seeing is always seeing and hearing is always hearing, they are ultimate realities with their unalterable characteristics. We learnt that the Abhidhamma is not theory, that it can be directly applied, and this is satipatthana. She would often remind us, ³And how about this moment now?² Whatever questions people asked, she would always guide them to the present moment. Phra Dhammadharo said that he was sometimes lost for a long time, without sati. A. Sujin asnwered that this shows that one has to develop right understanding in daily life, that one has to understand one¹s natural life. Then one can see the conditions for different namas and rupas, conditions one has accumulated. One can check for oneself whether there is clinging to nama and rupa. We need the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma to support the development of right understanding. We should listen, study and consider the Dhamma. Panna cannot suddenly arise. When we have intellectual understanding we can compare this with a plant that has to grow. We see at first buds, and we do not know yet when it will bloom. This will happen when the conditions are right. Nina. 23526 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 0:47pm Subject: re: Not such a silly question...... Hi, James ~ I'm one of those people who doesn't say anything sometimes just because words can be so arbitrary. If we're going to use language at all, how are we going to get away from manipulating it, and thereby, each other? Seems to me that that's the point of communicating, not that manipulation is bad/undesirable in and of itself. Even non-verbal communications, say holding up a flower to transmit some mind-meld or sending a blank e-mail, involve manipulations and it might be a kind of magic that we can think we understand each other at all. Given my nickname 'con' if you or anyone else and I see eye-to-eye, we could be said to be, in some sense, 'confused'. I think rather than saying certain kinds of group-speak are misleading, you're telling me you don't necessarily agree with where they lead. Of course, if we're led to believe in magic, it might be that we didn't follow very well, but that could be my bias against magic. If it turned out that the magic or 'semantic trickery' worked to show me what I'd been meant to see, then it would seem that I'd ended up at the right place after all, whether I accepted with what I'd been shown or not. Is there really 'any given person' to come to an understanding except in a conventionally manipulated sense? Does anything happen by means of 'any individual choice or action' or is anything a combination of events? Not that the phrase can't be a little ambiguous. Is it about a single/individual choice or action by itself or the choice/action of a single living being? Words aren't meant to be the reality itself, just representations of it and while they are relatively set/stable, for the most part, we're not speaking dead languages or jabberwocky. I think to really see what other people are saying sometimes, especially Buddha, who seems to have redefined quite a few words, we have to be willing to let words speak for themselves in ways we're not accustomed to hearing rather than letting our definitions be too confining. I also wonder about doing things subconsciously, but maybe I'm just being picky about 'subconscious' now. Any action involves/is intent, whether awareness is involved or not. Well, not 'any action'. The Ven. Nanavira Thera pointed out that unconscious actions like what takes place with a tree in the wind or a rock rolling down a hill and derailing a train, isn't action but just pure and simple movement. Then said, parenthetically, that in the "latter case it is quaintly called, in legal circles, 'an Act of God' but if there is no God there is no Act, only movement of the rock." peace, connie 23527 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 2:39pm Subject: Re: Not such a silly question...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Hi, James ~ > I'm one of those people who doesn't say anything sometimes just because > words can be so arbitrary. Hi Connie, Yes, I agree that that is often the case. I am becoming more and more like you and I suspect you will be reading less and less from me. Metta, James 23528 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 2:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... A few comments: > First of all, I thank you very much for your postscript. I appreciate > your taking my comments as remarks made by a friend to a friend. > Secondly, I did think that your psychological analysis showed good > insight, and I agreed that the language Sarah had used suggested an (unconscious) > avoidance. [It turns out, however, that the further clarification she made > shows that the language (of "determined on") didn't actually originate with > Sarah, but with a commentary.] > My third comment pertains to your writing "I don't think that I was > stating that anyone was trying to be malicious, only misleading…I believe there > is a difference between the two." Yes, there is. Actually, I didn't use the > word 'malicious' and didn't mean to suggest that you implied maliciousness but > only a conscious intention to mislead, and I pointed out that, without clear > evidence to the contrary, it is best to assume that if there is deceptive > language adopted, the basis of it is most likely not conscious. [It turns out, in > this case, as I already noted, that there wasn't even any self- deception > involved, but merely an innocent continuation of awkward terminology used in the > translation of a commentary.] > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, The use of language is very important. As we witness nowadays, its use can lead to war, and consequent multiple investigations, and even consequent suicide. You have an interesting point about the influence of the commentaries, (which Sarah wasn't translating or quoting…they simply influenced her word choice), because the stilted language I have witnessed have all been in those who study the commentaries extensively. Actually, A. Sujin, from my understanding, also bases most of her teachings on the commentaries. It could actually be that what I few as an odd interpretation of the dhamma arises from the odd syntax found in the commentaries. Language does greatly influence, if not actually form, thought. It would be interesting to investigate/study this apparent link. But again, I have no idea what you are meaning from this giving someone the benefit of the doubt business; I have already explained why I bring this subject up. It has nothing to do with doubting intentions. Metta, James 23529 From: Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 3:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] more on piti Hi Nina, It makes sense to me that the concentration that is the proximate cause of insight is the same concentration that has piti as proximate cause, in other words the concentration of jhana. We can wait and see if Buddhaghosa has a clarifying remark but I'm not aware of two different concentrations. Do you have something else in mind as a proximate cause to the concentration that is the proximate cause of insight? I have a few more thoughts on this. It seems that a proximate cause is a citta or cetasika that immediately precedes another citta or cetaska in a process and a proximate cause is not necessarily a sufficient cause. In other words, concentration may not necessarily be followed by insight but if there is insight, it was preceded by concentration. This, of course, could simply be a matter of mind moments or it could be a more extensive process. Also "cause" is a little misleading if it makes one think that concentration manufactures insight. That isn't what is meant. In some cases what is considered to be proximate varies from commentator to commentator and sometimes more than one proximate cause is given. I made a mistake concerning the meaning of 'born of seclusion' as attributed to piti. I said it was seclusion from sensuous desires but it is actually seclusion from all the hindrances: sensuous desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, and sceptical doubt. It occurred to me that simply the arising of an objective identification would accomplish this. In other words 'mindfulness'. I see the process as follows: Extreme aversion, for example, arises. Mindfulness recognizes it. That objectivity becomes evident as being secluded from hindrances simply because it is objective and joyful interest (piti) is born. It isn't clear whether that interest is interest in the seclusion or in the principle object, extreme aversion. Probably they are mixed together so that interest leads to a non-wandering one-pointed grasping of the principle object, extreme aversion. This leads, as if by magic, to the insight that this aversion is impermanent, dukkha, or not self. Coincidentally this is very close to being a full circle returning to the the objectivity that initiated the process. Larry 23530 From: Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Hi Jim, Thanks for your suggestions. They all seem reasonable to me but I will wait a couple of days to see if there is more input before proceeding. I'm a little sceptical about handling pali transmissions from you. It seems like there is a great potential for things getting lost and confused since I don't know hardly any pali. Maybe you, Sarah, Nina, and Kom could put your heads together and come up with the best way to do this. Larry 23531 From: Andrew Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 4:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Most of the time, the overwhelming majority of people are quite > > unaware of what subliminal processes condition the mode of their speech, and > > while > > we can form hypotheses about that, we cannot know for certain, unless our > > telepathic abilities are flawless, nor can we easily distinguish subliminal > > influence from conscious decision. Dear Howard and all I have been following this thread and thank you for raising a very interesting angle. I don't think the full significance of your comments above have been acknowledged and so I will attempt to do so now. Last year, as part of a Masters thesis in ethics, I extensively researched the use of psychology in advertising. As a result, I came to the view that believing humans to be conscious volitional beings is inaccurate and misleading. Let me give you but one example. One advertising technique is known as "positioning something as a given". In an experiment, people were shown a video of a car accident. They were then separately asked a series of questions about what they had seen. One question was "How far did the blue car go past the stop sign?" In actual fact, there was no stop sign. But merely putting that information in the question as a "given" was enough to make most people insist that they had seen a stop sign. When this technique is used in advertisements, people can be prompted/motivated to buy something and if asked about it, they would not be able to accurately describe their volition. This makes me think. In Dhamma, we struggle with the thought of "will but no willer" and this leads to all sorts of arguments about "practice". That there is will, we all agree. But will can only be experienced. Start to describe it (by explaining and justifying decisions and so on) and immediately you head into falsehood and deception. Worldlings with dust in their eyes DON'T REALLY KNOW why action occurs. That has to be understood because any action without that understanding is chained to the samsaric illusion of "self" - an illusion we all agree Buddha refuted on an absolute level. Metta, Andrew 23532 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 7:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] more on piti Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina, ... > I made a mistake concerning the meaning of 'born of seclusion' as > attributed to piti. I said it was seclusion from sensuous desires > but it > is actually seclusion from all the hindrances: sensuous desire, > ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, and sceptical > doubt. It occurred to me that simply the arising of an objective > identification would accomplish this. In other words 'mindfulness'. I believe that mindfulness could be exactly what is meant by 'born of seclusion'. In a similar vein, I think that references to 'guarding the door-ways' are also references to mindfulness. Jon 23533 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Perfections. Epilogue 2 Perfections. Epilogue 2 We read further on in the Commentary to the ³Basket of conduct² about the defilement of the other perfections as follows: ³Discriminating thoughts of delight in sense pleasures and existence, and of discontent with their pacification, are the defilement of the perfection of renunciation. Discriminating thoughts of "I" and "mine" are the defilement of the perfection of wisdom...² Even when we think in that way of paññå, it is already defiled, we have attachment to the thought of ³my paññå². We read further on about the defilement of the perfections: ³Discriminating thoughts leaning to listlessness and restlessness, of the perfection of energy; discriminating thoughts of oneself and others, of the perfection of patience; discriminating thoughts of avowing to have seen what was not seen, etc., of the perfection of truthfulness; discriminating thoughts perceiving flaws in the requisites of enlightenment and virtues in their opposites, of the perfection of determination; discriminating thoughts confusing what is harmful with what is beneficial, of the perfection of loving-kindness; and discriminating thoughts over the desirable and undesirable, of the perfection of equanimity. Thus the defilements should be understood.² At times we can have equanimity with regard to the undesirable but not with regard to the desirable. The more we understand the Dhamma in detail, the more will we be inclined to practise the Dhamma. Formerly we may have thought that we could not practise the perfections, that they were beyond our reach. However, if we only see the benefit of each of the perfections, and if we gradually develop them, they will eventually become accomplished. We can verify for ourselves that listening to the Dhamma and studying it is of the utmost benefit. It will enable us to apply the Dhamma in our daily lives, to develop satipatthåna together with all the perfections. ***** (End of the series. The perfections will be put on Zolag) 23534 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:10pm Subject: FW: Co. to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, no. 1. Dear Sarah and all, English only is at the end for those who do not follow Pali. I eliminated the word list, perhaps too technical. I wrote a short intro: This commentary gives us an idea of village life in olden times. People gave expression to their devotion with their decorations, the golden statues and festoonwork moved along by machinery (yanta). We learn about colours, the natural coloring, like coloring from red lead. About putting milk in a conch. About trees I did not know of before, like the coral tree. We should think of the kusala cittas of the people of old who made such elaborate decorations. The Commentary gives very impressive similes about the Buddha and Rahula walking behind as you will see soon. Against the background of all this gold glittering, gold dusting, festoonwork, the similes come to life. You will also see that the Buddha is compared to an elephant, to a lion, a tiger, a swan, and Rahula is compared to the young animal, going behind. The animals used in these similes were considered as majestic, awe-inspiring, and very beautiful. The young animal was also very elegant but only at the beginning of its growth and development. Co. to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, no. 1. Relevant sutta passage: atha kho bhagavaa pubba.nhasamaya.m nivaasetvaa pattaciivaramaadaaya saavatthi.m pi.n.daaya paavisi. aayasmaapi kho raahulo pubba.nhasamaya.m nivaasetvaa pattaciivaramaadaaya bhagavanta.m pi.t.thito pi.t.thito anubandhi. Then, when it was morning, the Blessed One dressed and, taking his bowl and outer robe, entered Savatthi for alms. The venerable Rahula, too, dressed and, taking his bowl and outer robe, followed close behind the Blessed One. Commentary: eva.m me sutanti mahaaraahulovaadasutta.m. As to the words, thus have I heard, this is the Great Discourse to the venerable Rahula. tattha pi.t.thito pi.t.thito anubandhiiti dassana.m avijahitvaa gamana.m abbocchinna.m katvaa As to the words, there he followed closely behind, this means, without leaving him out of sight, and leaving no distance in between, pacchato pacchato iriyaapathaanubandhanena anubandhi. he followed behind in each manner of deportment. tadaa hi bhagavaa pade pada.m nikkhipanto vilaasitagamanena * purato purato gacchati, Then, the Exalted One, placing his feet, step by step, in a splendid manner, walked in front, raahulatthero dasabalassa padaanupadiko hutvaa pacchato pacchato. whereas the venerable Rahulo followed close behind the ³Person with the Ten Powers². English: As to the words, thus have I heard, this is the Great Discourse to the venerable Rahula. As to the words, there he followed closely behind, this means, without leaving him out of sight, and leaving no distance in between, he followed behind in each manner of deportment. Then, the Exalted One putting his feet down, step by step, in a splendid manner, walked in front, whereas the venerable Rahulo followed close behind the ³Person with the Ten Powers². * The subcommentary explains: Nina. 23535 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting into practice Dear Jon, Kom and all, See below op 20-07-2003 15:12 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Jon: Only insight/panna can experience the element that is sound as > sound (audible object), different from the concept of 'barking dog' > (a mental object). > > Again, any understanding that is developed accrues gradually and by > its appropriate conditions. This means that any outcome in the form > of 'separation' of elements/dhammas, when it occurs, will do so only > gradually and spasmodically, i.e., naturally by conditions. > > When there is the intention of experiencing sound as something > different from barking dog, this is not likely to be insight, in my > view. N: This is an important point, and I appreciate the reminder. It is a small borderline between effort without the idea of self, right effort, effort to study realities, and effort with an idea of "I do it". Nobody else can tell us when there is clinging and when there is not. Both kinds arise, and as you would say, it does not matter. How could it be otherwise, we have not eradicated the idea of self. So long as we realize the different kinds of efforts and intentions. I also would like very much to know what Kom thinks about this. P.S. Just going off for a few days of hiking. Nina. 23536 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:07pm Subject: Re: Not such a silly question...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > > > Most of the time, the overwhelming majority of people are quite > > > unaware of what subliminal processes condition the mode of their > speech, and > > > while > > > we can form hypotheses about that, we cannot know for certain, > unless our > > > telepathic abilities are flawless, nor can we easily distinguish > subliminal > > > influence from conscious decision. > > Dear Howard and all > I have been following this thread and thank you for raising a very > interesting angle. I don't think the full significance of your > comments above have been acknowledged and so I will attempt to do so > now. Last year, as part of a Masters thesis in ethics, I extensively > researched the use of psychology in advertising. As a result, I came > to the view that believing humans to be conscious volitional beings is > inaccurate and misleading. Hi Andrew, I don't see how the example you cite is clear proof that people don't have any kind of volition; it only proves that people are subject to the power of suggestion, which isn`t an absolute (I`m sure that not everyone claimed there was a stop sign…what were the statistics?). The Buddha didn't teach that people don't have volition, he only taught that they don't have a permanent, lasting essence (anatta). You, and others, have come to the conclusion that that means there is no volition…there is only nama and rupa. But you see, that is a fallacy in thinking. If you, or anyone, believes that there is no volition, then there is nothing else also. Everything must be weighed by the same standards. This is expressed in the Heart Sutra, a Mahayana Sutta but related nonetheless: "…Form is emptiness; emptiness also is form. Emptiness is no other than form; form is no other than emptiness. In the same way, feeling, perception, formation, and consciousness are emptiness. Thus, Shariputra, all dharmas are emptiness. There are no characteristics. There is no birth and no cessation. There is no impurity and no purity. There is no decrease and no increase. Therefore, Shariputra, in emptiness, there is no form, no feeling, no perception, no formation, no consciousness; no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no appearance, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no dharmas, no eye dhatu up to no mind dhatu, no dhatu of dharmas, no mind consciousness dhatu; no ignorance, no end of ignorance up to no old age and death, no end of old age and death; no suffering, no origin of suffering, no cessation of suffering, no path, no wisdom, no attainment, and no non-attainment…" http://members.ozemail.com.au/~mooncharts/heartsutra/english.html You can't have it both ways; if there are namas and rupas, there is volition; if there is no volition, then there are no namas and rupas… there is nothing. Metta, James 23537 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Putting into practice Hi Nina & Jon, > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:10 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting into practice > > > > > When there is the intention of experiencing > sound as something > > different from barking dog, this is not likely > to be insight, in my > > view. > N: This is an important point, and I appreciate > the reminder. It is a small > borderline between effort without the idea of > self, right effort, effort to > study realities, and effort with an idea of "I do > it". Nobody else can tell > us when there is clinging and when there is not. > Both kinds arise, and as > you would say, it does not matter. How could it > be otherwise, we have not > eradicated the idea of self. So long as we > realize the different kinds of > efforts and intentions. I also would like very > much to know what Kom thinks > about this. > P.S. Just going off for a few days of hiking. > Nina. > I don't think I can put it any better than Jon already did. I think when there is an intention, strong enough to be noticeable, to "notice" or "catch" something, it is most likely the attachment to knowing the dhammas, to making progress, to having sati, to being someone who has sati, and all the other various shades of attachment more than insights. I think it is normal to have such attachments, (because we are still full of self) which is why is so important to carefully learn the differences between sati and the samudhaya, and to realize that attachment will lead one yet to more rebirths rather than getting one out of it. Does something one does/thinks of leads to more attachment? That is not the teaching of the Buddha. kom 23538 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi KKT (& Jon), Good to read your comments, KKT. You may mean that ‘they were still possessing an illusion of an ego’. > > KKT: The reason is very simple. > > > > All the monks and laymen > > the Buddha taught were not > > yet Arahat. Therefore they were > > supposed still possessing an ego. > > Thus the teachings the Buddha > > addressed them should be in > > accord with their reality of 'self'. > Jon:> But didn't the Buddha spent his life explaining to people why the > perceptions they held were erroneous, especially perceptions about > dhammas as being 'self'? If so, then it would not be correct to say > that he assumed or accepted any 'reality of self' for the purpose of > instruction ;-)). ..... THE THREE CHARACTERISTICS. Translated from the Anguttara-Nikâya (iii.1341). Whether Buddhas arise, O priests, or whether Buddhas do not arise, it remains a fact and the fixed and necessary constitution of being, that all its constituents are transitory. This fact a Buddha discovers and masters, and when he has discovered and mastered it, he announces, teaches, publishes, proclaims, discloses, minutely explains, and makes it clear, that all the constituents of being are transitory. Whether Buddhas arise, O priests, or whether Buddhas do not arise, it remains a fact and the fixed and necessary constitution of being, that all its constituents are misery. This fact a Buddha discovers and masters, and when he has discovered and mastered it, he announces, teaches, publishes, proclaims, discloses, minutely explains, and makes it clear, that all the constituents of being are misery. Whether Buddhas arise, O priests, or whether Buddhas do not arise, it remains a fact and the fixed and necessary constitution of being, that all its elements are lacking in an Ego. This fact a Buddha discovers and masters, and when he has discovered and mastered it, he announces, teaches, publishes, proclaims, discloses, minutely explains, and makes it clear, that all the elements of being are lacking in an Ego. ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 23539 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 0:04am Subject: Searching for exits (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Howard, Just a little more on your other post to me: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > My point was that we begin to "search for the exit" because we > are > dissatisfied with our dissatisfaction. The prisoner who thinks the > accomodations, > food,and company are just fine, won't look for the exit. In fact,he > won't > even walk through an open cell door. > The path is a bootstrap operation. To add yet one more metaphor, > we > must use what is available in the pit to pull ourselves out of the pit. ..... S: I understand the points and I agree that this is how it seems. However, I think that dissatisfaction with one’s lot leads to more dissatisfaction and acceptance and understanding leads to more acceptance and understanding. Now it may well be that the dissatisfaction is the necessary condition to get out of the prison cell, but I think the equanimity and clarity of comprehension (along with the other noble factors)are what will lead to the realisation of the 4 Noble Truths. There is no ‘right dissatisfaction’ after all;-) ..... > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > But the chicks must peck at that shell. The Buddha began his > quest > when he realized that the of a worldling is unsatisfactory. In > particular, *he* > was dissatisfied and went on his quest to *escape* dukkha. He was > motivated by > desire. > ------------------------------------------------ S: No ‘right desire’ either;-) Seriously,I think we just have to be honestly mindful of the present cittas to know whether they are skilful or not. ..... > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, I think that the Buddha's teachings on guarding the senses > and > on right effort do advocate the use of volitional action and the > exercise of > control (or, better, influence). > ----------------------------------------------------- S: I think we all agree that there must be right effort at these times and there is intention or volition at every moment. When we have the idea of making an effort to guard the senses, I think there are many factors and moments of consciousness involved and only sati can be aware of whether these are wholesome or not. When I cut my tongue on Saturday, I was trying to keep quiet and calm so as not to cause unnecessary distress to others. On the other hand, I was concerned about how I’d be seen by other people and was not enjoying the ‘fussing’ (though I appreciated all the concern). Someone might say I was ‘self-controlled’, but in truth there were just the differnent experiences through the sense-doors, the aversion and thinking as a result of the experiences and so on with ever-changing cittas accompanied by intention and effort performing their tasks. What we’d consider as self-control would mostly be moments of thinking (good and bad) conditioning the speech and bodily actions. All of these were conditioned by my tendencies, the vipaka experienced and many other conditions and factors, such as the situation and people around me. ..... > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > If our desire for results fixates us on the goal rather than > directing > us to the conditions needed to achieve that goal, such goal-orientation > is, > of course, harmful. But there is a goal, and there needs to be. If there > were > no goal, there would be no walking of the path to the goal. > ------------------------------------------------------ S: Again, I think we need to just be honest and sincere about the present desires rather than to try and justify them -- as I find it easy to do -- as being very fine because they relate to nibbana or the end of suffering or wisdom or awareness. ..... > ============================== H:> Thank you for your reply, Sarah. It's always a pleasure chatting > with > you. (Sorry to disagree so often! ;-) ..... S: The disagreeing is fine and healthy. We only discuss what we disagree on after all and not the main aspects we both agree on;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 23540 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Hi Larry, (Jim & All), --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jim, > > Thanks for your suggestions. They all seem reasonable to me but I will > wait a couple of days to see if there is more input before proceeding. .... I agree with all Jim’s points. I also think it’s good to go slow (so as not to lose his assistance for a start). Checking a Pali phrase carefully or even just a word in context can be time-consuming. Perhaps we can ask him or Nina to wave a flag or shout anytime you’re going too fast;-) I think the simplest thing for you, Jim and everyone would be if you proceed as normal with your installments in English only and Jim can ‘reply’ to them to add the Pali below, adding any key phrases and translations from the Tika when required. It won’t matter if there’s a gap or a day or two or few before your installment and his ‘reply’ - it’ll be good for us all to consider and even discuss without the extra assistance;-) ..... > I'm a little sceptical about handling pali transmissions from you. It > seems like there is a great potential for things getting lost and > confused since I don't know hardly any pali. Maybe you, Sarah, Nina, and > Kom could put your heads together and come up with the best way to do > this. .... My suggestion would let you off the hook, but anyway is OK for me. I think it’s helpful to have the full extract, but if you’d like to give your own suggested summary and understanding after each one, that makes a good start for any discussion...... James will be watching for any stilted language;-) On the copyright issue (and talking to my in-house intellectual property expert;-)), as Jim said, short extracts from the published text in a discussion forum should be no problem at all. Before, B.Bodhi gave us permission to use the entire CMA on DSG in this way, but as a courtesy, I will write him a note anyway in the next couple of weeks (he has remained president of BPS). In the meantime, I think you may as well proceed. Many thanks for your work and regular input. I greatly appreciated and supported Christine’s kind comments in this regard. Metta, Sarah ====== 23541 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 2:56am Subject: Re: Not such a silly question...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > I don't see how the example you cite is clear proof that people don't > have any kind of volition; it only proves that people are subject to > the power of suggestion, which isn`t an absolute (I`m sure that not > everyone claimed there was a stop sign?what were the statistics?). > > The Buddha didn't teach that people don't have volition, he only > taught that they don't have a permanent, lasting essence (anatta). > You, and others, have come to the conclusion that that means there is > no volition?there is only nama and rupa. But you see, that is a > fallacy in thinking. If you, or anyone, believes that there is no > volition, then there is nothing else also. Everything must be > weighed by the same standards. This is expressed in the Heart Sutra, > a Mahayana Sutta but related nonetheless: > > "?Form is emptiness; emptiness also is form. Emptiness is no other > than form; form is no other than emptiness. In the same way, feeling, > perception, formation, and consciousness are emptiness. Thus, > Shariputra, all dharmas are emptiness. There are no characteristics. > There is no birth and no cessation. There is no impurity and no > purity. There is no decrease and no increase. Therefore, Shariputra, > in emptiness, there is no form, no feeling, no perception, no > formation, no consciousness; no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no > body, no mind; no appearance, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, > no dharmas, no eye dhatu up to no mind dhatu, no dhatu of dharmas, no > mind consciousness dhatu; no ignorance, no end of ignorance up to no > old age and death, no end of old age and death; no suffering, no > origin of suffering, no cessation of suffering, no path, no wisdom, > no attainment, and no non-attainment?" > http://members.ozemail.com.au/~mooncharts/heartsutra/english.html > > You can't have it both ways; if there are namas and rupas, there is > volition; if there is no volition, then there are no namas and rupas? > there is nothing. > > Metta, James Hello James Thanks for your comments and the Heart Sutra reference. I was interested to see its reference to "dharmas" as I had been under the impression that this type of analysis might have been limited to Abhidhamma - clearly not the case. Unfortunately, I think our posts were like two ships passing in the night. I don't think they really connected. As a result, I haven't found your comments as useful as some in your other posts (yet, that is). Let me clarify a few things. First of all, I don't deny the existence of will or volition. By this, I mean the universal mental factor of "cetana". As I said at the end of my post, I think we all agree that volition exists. Those into Abhidhamma classify cetana as nama. So any disagreement isn't about whether volition exists or not. I might be wrong about this but I think the real issue is about how volition sits with "no self". You give me the impression you are saying that we sit in the driver's seat and direct our course. I have very serious doubts about the correctness of this. There are so many factors, many outside the conscious realm, affecting us that I think it isn't possible for a worldling like myself to really know why actions take place. Whenever I think about such things, I am immediately conceptualising about the past or future and relying entirely upon those conscious things I was able to identify. This is "educated guessing" at most, "kidding myself" at worst. And it's something I've done since I first became interested in Buddhism in the 1980s. I never did manage to control my thoughts or prune them into shape. This has led me to my present "re-look" at the no-self teaching (which the religious scholars tell me is the main teaching differentiating Dhamma from its contemporary rivals). James, I would be very interested in hearing you on this. Instead of focussing on "if there is no volition, there is nothing", how am I to deal with "there IS volition but no permanent lasting essence to will"? How is the course being set if there is change at every moment? metta, Andrew 23542 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 6:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting into practice Hi Nina, Could you explain what an idea of self would be? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, Kom and all, > See below > op 20-07-2003 15:12 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > > > Jon: Only insight/panna can experience the element that is sound as > > sound (audible object), different from the concept of 'barking dog' > > (a mental object). > > > > Again, any understanding that is developed accrues gradually and by > > its appropriate conditions. This means that any outcome in the form > > of 'separation' of elements/dhammas, when it occurs, will do so only > > gradually and spasmodically, i.e., naturally by conditions. > > > > When there is the intention of experiencing sound as something > > different from barking dog, this is not likely to be insight, in my > > view. > N: This is an important point, and I appreciate the reminder. It is a small > borderline between effort without the idea of self, right effort, effort to > study realities, and effort with an idea of "I do it". Nobody else can tell > us when there is clinging and when there is not. Both kinds arise, and as > you would say, it does not matter. How could it be otherwise, we have not > eradicated the idea of self. So long as we realize the different kinds of > efforts and intentions. I also would like very much to know what Kom thinks > about this. > P.S. Just going off for a few days of hiking. > Nina. 23543 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 7:07am Subject: Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi Andrew and James, The Buddha neither taught that people don't have a permanent, lasting essence, nor did he teach that people do have a permanent, lasting essence. The Buddha neither taught that there is no self, nor did he teach that there is a self. The Buddha taught that each and every aggregate is not self. In other words, each and every aggregate is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." The question "Why do actions take place?" can be rephrased as "What are the causes for the origination of actions?" To that questions, the Buddha provides the answers in Anguttara Nikaya III.33 Nidana Sutta Causes http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-033.html Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > Hi Andrew, [snip] > > The Buddha didn't teach that people don't have volition, he only > > taught that they don't have a permanent, lasting essence (anatta). [snip] > > > > Metta, James > > Hello James [snip] > I might be wrong about this but I think the real issue is about how > volition sits with "no self". You give me the impression you are > saying that we sit in the driver's seat and direct our course. I have > very serious doubts about the correctness of this. There are so many > factors, many outside the conscious realm, affecting us that I think > it isn't possible for a worldling like myself to really know why > actions take place. Whenever I think about such things, I am > immediately conceptualising about the past or future and relying > entirely upon those conscious things I was able to identify. This is > "educated guessing" at most, "kidding myself" at worst. And it's > something I've done since I first became interested in Buddhism in the > 1980s. I never did manage to control my thoughts or prune them into > shape. This has led me to my present "re-look" at the no-self > teaching (which the religious scholars tell me is the main teaching > differentiating Dhamma from its contemporary rivals). > James, I would be very interested in hearing you on this. Instead of > focussing on "if there is no volition, there is nothing", how am I to > deal with "there IS volition but no permanent lasting essence to > will"? How is the course being set if there is change at every moment? > metta, Andrew 23544 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Dear Sarah (and Larry), Welcome back from your holidays! > I think the simplest thing for you, Jim and everyone would be if you > proceed as normal with your installments in English only and Jim can > 'reply' to them to add the Pali below, adding any key phrases and > translations from the Tika when required. It won't matter if there's a gap > or a day or two or few before your installment and his 'reply' - it'll be > good for us all to consider and even discuss without the extra > assistance;-) Thanks, I agree that this would certainly be a much better and simpler way. I can respond to Larry's English installments by adding the corresponding Pali along with some of the comments from the Maha Tika and also add some comments of my own. It sounds like an interesting study project and I'm looking forward to it. I was interested in helping out with the Way of Mindfulness study project in the beginning but it quickly got a way ahead of me and I just couldn't keep up with it as I was more interested in studying it in Pali and this really slows things down. On another subject, I was wondering if you or anyone else has ever come across an English translation of the following two passages from these commentaries: Suttanipaata-a.t.thakathaa, pp. 46-52 on the Khaggavisaa.nasutta. Theragaathaa-a.t.thakathaa, pp. 1-19 on the introductory verses. The passages contain a lot of valuable information about mahaabodhisattas, paccekabodhisattas, and saavakabodhisattas. And there is a conversation between the Buddha and Ananda in the SnA passage about the time it takes for the first two types to become a buddha. Best wishes. Jim 23545 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 7:38am Subject: Re: Not such a silly question...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hello James > Thanks for your comments and the Heart Sutra reference. I was > interested to see its reference to "dharmas" as I had been under the > impression that this type of analysis might have been limited to > Abhidhamma - clearly not the case. > Unfortunately, I think our posts were like two ships passing in the > night. I don't think they really connected. As a result, I haven't > found your comments as useful as some in your other posts (yet, that > is). Let me clarify a few things. First of all, I don't deny the > existence of will or volition. By this, I mean the universal mental > factor of "cetana". As I said at the end of my post, I think we all > agree that volition exists. Those into Abhidhamma classify cetana as > nama. So any disagreement isn't about whether volition exists or not. > I might be wrong about this but I think the real issue is about how > volition sits with "no self". You give me the impression you are > saying that we sit in the driver's seat and direct our course. I have > very serious doubts about the correctness of this. There are so many > factors, many outside the conscious realm, affecting us that I think > it isn't possible for a worldling like myself to really know why > actions take place. Whenever I think about such things, I am > immediately conceptualising about the past or future and relying > entirely upon those conscious things I was able to identify. This is > "educated guessing" at most, "kidding myself" at worst. And it's > something I've done since I first became interested in Buddhism in the > 1980s. I never did manage to control my thoughts or prune them into > shape. This has led me to my present "re-look" at the no-self > teaching (which the religious scholars tell me is the main teaching > differentiating Dhamma from its contemporary rivals). > James, I would be very interested in hearing you on this. Instead of > focussing on "if there is no volition, there is nothing", how am I to > deal with "there IS volition but no permanent lasting essence to > will"? How is the course being set if there is change at every moment? > metta, Andrew Hi Andrew, I suppose the Heart Sutra was written after the Abhidhamma (or concurrently since the Abhidhamma is so long), so it does contain references to dhammas. It also contains references to dhatus which are kinda like the equivalent of dhammas but come from the suttas. I guess the composer wanted to cover all the bases! ;-) Hmmm…I am sorry that my post failed to have contact with your post, in your estimation. I guess I am a little fuzzy on exactly what your position is. At first you state that there is no will (in relation to the advertising research) and then you state that we all agree that there is will (and I have read posts contrary to that from some); then you summarize by stating that `the all' is so vast and complicated that a `worldling' couldn't possibly understand it all and that it is difficult to determine how `free will' works. Hmmmm… frankly, I am still not sure what your position is. I went with what seemed the clearer and first stated position and ran with it! ;-). I think that perhaps that post was meant more for others rather than you, that is why it missed its mark. So, you want to know what I believe as to how free will works with anatta. Here is my answer: I find it erroneous to think that free will requires a permanent essence. Who came up with that rule? That thinking is egocentric itself because it supposes that only a self can make choices or do actions. Not true. First, when looking at anatta we have to define what is the self? The idea of self is that we are distinct individuals who are defined by physical appearance, personal history, mental traits, habits, tastes, etc., the Buddha taught that this is illusion. This gross sense of self needs to be refined into a more wholesome sense of self, then this wholesome sense of self is abandoned for a completely virtuous self (Buddhahood), then this virtuous self is completely abandoned for no- self at all at death (Parinibbana). Free will exists because there is karma, it has nothing to do with self or non-self. Free will, broken down, is the conglomeration of certain energies directly affecting other energies; this affectation can be as simple as deciding to eat a cookie to making oneself levitate and fly, it depends on the conglomeration of energy. Energies affect other energies all the time (rain, fire, gravity, etc.) but certain energies come together, form sentient life forms who can choose when and how to affect other energies, and therefore build the false sense of self. It isn't until this 'renegade' energy sees itself for what it is that it will cease to manifest in suffering forms. This is my estimation; if you don't agree, okay. Metta, James 23546 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 7:39am Subject: RE: [dsg] Putting into practice Nina and Kom I agree with what Kom says here, and would only add that even if there were a *wholesome* intention for there to be awareness of dhammas, it still doesn't mean that awareness of dhammas would follow. For one who truly appreciates the value in developing awareness (or any other kind of kusala), this understanding gives all the motivation that is needed (called samvega/sense of urgency), without the need for any specific intention. As I see it, when there is the specific intention to 'be more patient/tolerant', 'show more generosity', 'have more awareness', 'study realties' or the like, it is not the same as an opportunity that occurs unbidden. Jon PS Nina, wishing you and L. happy days' walking. --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Hi Nina & Jon, ... > I think when there is an intention, strong enough to be > noticeable, to "notice" or "catch" something, it is most > likely the attachment to knowing the dhammas, to making > progress, to having sati, to being someone who has sati, and > all the other various shades of attachment more than > insights. I think it is normal to have such attachments, > (because we are still full of self) which is why is so > important to carefully learn the differences between sati > and the samudhaya, and to realize that attachment will lead > one yet to more rebirths rather than getting one out of it. > Does something one does/thinks of leads to more attachment? > That is not the teaching of the Buddha. > > kom 23547 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 8:23am Subject: Apologies (and Godel) Hi All, Sorry for being silent for so long. If anybody has been waiting weeks (or months) for a reply from me, please let me know. I am currently in the Howard Hotel in Taipei and the name of the hotel reminded me of my friend in the Dhamma and prompted me to re- link with the DSG. Yesterday, as I got my luggage out of the overhead compartment on the plane, I noticed an old Thai monk out of the corner of my eye. The monk was smiling (in my opinion, the best monks smile a lot). The instant of seeing that monk started a sequence of thoughts (gotta get back to the practice, not just the theory...). As I progressed to the immigration checkpoint, I found myself recalling the Patimokkha and trying to walk like a monk (keeping my gaze not more than one plow-length ahead of me). I was aware of the regret that I did not have a chance to talk to the monk. I am not so egotistical to believe that the world revolves around me and that my past has kamma arranged all these things to arise for me to experience. There are other forces at work (niyama) as well. Would you agree that the following is correct: 1. The world unfolds according to natural laws (niyama) 2. My reaction to the world that I experience is determined by my mental environment 3. My mental environment is a mixture of recent experiences (short term) and accumulations (long term). 4. My reaction to the world that I experience contributes to my mental environment (both short term and long term). 5. My speech and action that follows my mental reaction will change the world; in this way I am part of this world that unfolds according to natural laws (point 1 above). This line of thinking reminds me of Godel's incompleteness theorem; we are part of this natural system (not an objective observer) and as such, there are things about this natural system which cannot be proven (or disproven). In order to prove (or disprove) these things, we need to step outside this system. Can I therefore conclude that seeing things as they truly are perfectly (i.e. fully within the axiomatic system) is not enough to transcend the system itself (i.e. experience Nibbana). One also needs to step outside the system (i.e. faith beyond what has been directly experienced). I suspect that I am tying myself into knots but I can't see the fallacy of my argument. Howard, you are a mathematician, aren't you? Can you help me? Metta, Rob M :-) 23548 From: jaranoh Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 8:44am Subject: Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) No 4 Dear All: After a few months of disappearing, I am now continuing the "Sunday dhamma disscusion at the Foundation". Sorry for being so quiet. Feed back is welcome. I am behind. My last post (Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) No 3) was posted on April 29, 2003. Please refer to it if you are lost. Thanks.--Jaran Week 5, No 4: 19:15 min It is said that the first three vippassana ~na~na are 'tarunavipassana' because the moments of their arising (to penetrate the nature of dhamma) are brief, and they are weak. Dhamma arises, and the vippassana ~na~na, how breif it is, prenetrates the dhamma and then falls away. This happens in the middle of stream of thinking (technically, among other conciousness), which is a natural tendency before the first moment of satipa.t.thana as well as vippassana ~na~na. These three: naamarupapricchedanana, paccayaparigahanana and sammasananana are 'tarunavipassana' and are ~naata-pari~n~na because the understanding at the vipassana ~na~na moments is more profound than those prior to them. [~naata = part participle of ~naa(V) = to know, ~naata = has known] (added by Jaran) The understanding has known (directly and clearly experience, as supposed to contemplation) the characteristic of dhamma (nama and ruupa), in naamaruupapariccheda~na~na, for example. ---- Now question (from Jaran): In the case of paccayaparigaha~na~na, pa~n~na understands the conditions of dhamma, what about the sammasana-~nana, what is the things to be understood by pa~na~na? Anyone, please? ---- 23549 From: cetasika Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:18am Subject: Right Effort Is it desirable to accept the circumstances and continue the effort to improve meditation or is it recommended to change the surroundings like the place, job etc to make the life easier for improving meditation 23550 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 2 Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 2 > Formerly we may have thought that we could not practise the perfections, that they > were beyond our reach. However, if we only see the benefit of each of the > perfections, and if we gradually develop them, they will eventually become > accomplished. We can verify for ourselves that listening to the Dhamma and > studying it is of the utmost benefit. It will enable us to apply the Dhamma in our > daily lives, to develop satipatthåna together with all the perfections. This is all quite true I think, as vohaara-sacca. But there seems to me to be a lot of 'we', 'us', 'our' and 'ourselves' in this summation that might be misleading--'we can see, we can develop, we can verify', 'it will enable us' etc. I'm afraid this might instantly condition the arising of the thought, 'I can see, develop, verify etc.', instead of the thought that hearing of and understanding of the perfections may lead to the their development by understanding itself. I know it's often a fine line to tread between vohaara- and paramattha-vacana. But I THINK that the idea that 'I can develop satipatthaana' is a dangerous obstacle to the the arising of satipatthaana--or maybe not? Hope this doesn't seem presumptuous or impertinent. mike 23551 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Effort Dear (?), ----- Original Message ----- From: cetasika To: Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 9:18 AM Subject: [dsg] Right Effort > Is it desirable to accept the circumstances and continue the effort > to improve meditation or is it recommended to change the surroundings > like the place, job etc to make the life easier for improving > meditation Insight doesn't require any special circumstances or surroundings to arise--only having heard the Dhamma well-explained. Jhaana-cultivation (is this what you meant by 'meditation'?) requires a much more rarified environment, in my opinion (I think this is well born out by the suttas). So which is more important--jhaana, which was ancient before the bodhisatta was born, or insight, which leads out of sa.msaara? mike 23552 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 2:51pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Cetasika, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "cetasika" wrote: > Is it desirable to accept the circumstances and continue the effort > to improve meditation or is it recommended to change the surroundings > like the place, job etc to make the life easier for improving > meditation You raise an excellent question. Buddhist ethics are very simple, yet very complex at the same time. Simple in that anything motivated by attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) or delusion (moha) is unwholesome / unskillful / bad (akusala) and anything motivated by their opposites is wholesome / skillful / good (kusala). Complex in that thoughts rise and fall away again at an incredibly fast speed so that there can be many, many motivations behind a single thought / word / action. Let me give you an example to illustrate. A year and a half ago, I volunteered to teach a Sunday morning Abhidhamma class. That act of volunteering had multiple motivations behind it. There was conceit (mana), attachment to the idea that I could do a good job - that is bad. There was also a strong feeling that I wanted to learn more about Abhidhamma and I knew that teaching something was a good way of learning more - this is good. Here is another example. Each week, I work hard to prepare my class presentation. I get up very early to prepare my notes, check my references and make sure that I am ready. What is my motivation here? Part of the motivation is a fear (aversion) of making a fool out of myself in front of the class if I am not prepared - that is bad. However, I am also strongly motivated by a sincere love of the Dhamma - this is good. As you can see, a single action often has both unwholesome motivation (this makes the action bad) and wholesome motivation (this makes the action good). The quality (good or bad) of the kamma created depends on the type of motivation. In other words, an action can create both good and bad kamma because it can be motivated by both good and bad mental states. Right effort as one of the steps in the Noble Eightfold Path has four dimensions: 1. The effort to restrain defilements (sensual desire, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and worry and doubt) through mindfulness of the present moment (wise attention) 2. The effort to abandon defilements by picking the suitable meditation subject (sensual desire -> impermanence, ill will -> metta, dullness and drowsiness -> light / walking / death, restlessness and worry -> breathing, doubt -> investigation not meditation) 3. The effort to develop wholesome states through the seven factors of enlightenment (mindfulness, investigation of phenomena, energy, rapture, tranquillity, concentration and equanimity) 4. The effort to maintain wholesome states using the same seven factors of enlightenment Cetasika, you asked about changing surroundings or changing one's job to support meditation practice. We can see that these things do not tie directly to "right effort". You must consider yourself the primary motivation of wanting to make these changes; is it wholesome or unwholesome? One of my friends gave up her well-paid job with a liquor company after learning the Dhamma (right livelihood). Having said this, I suspect that the Dhamma was not the only motivating factor involved and that some of the other motivating factors were unwholesome. Even when people renounce and become a monk, I suspect that there are subtle unwholesome motivations at play as well. Kammic weight is tied to the intensity of volition involved. Since we have so many unwholesome accumulations, it takes a major effort to perform kusala. Because it takes such a major effort to perform kusala (moving against the current as it were), kusala acts tend to create strong positive kamma. If, in your heart, you can say that the main motivation behind the changes contemplated is wholesome, then the changes should be encouraged; the wholesome kamma created will be much, much stronger than whatever unwholesome kamma you pick up along the way. As Mike has said, insight does not depend on surroundings. Attachement to the idea of "right surroundings" can be an impediment to progress. On the other hand, that does not mean that one should not change when needed. For example, if your meditation practice is to focus on the breath (to counter restlessness) and you detect the arising of dullness and drowsiness, it is appropriate to switch your meditation object (until the sleepiness goes away) to the sensation of the legs and buttocks touching the floor. If you have pain while meditating, it is advised to observe the nature of the pain; however if the pain is chronic, you may choose to change your sitting position. Sorry if my answer appears to be "sitting on the fence". Metta, Rob M :-) 23553 From: Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Hi, Rob - Good to hear from you! In a message dated 7/21/03 11:25:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi All, > > Sorry for being silent for so long. If anybody has been waiting > weeks (or months) for a reply from me, please let me know. > > I am currently in the Howard Hotel in Taipei and the name of the > hotel reminded me of my friend in the Dhamma and prompted me to re- > link with the DSG. > > Yesterday, as I got my luggage out of the overhead compartment on > the plane, I noticed an old Thai monk out of the corner of my eye. > The monk was smiling (in my opinion, the best monks smile a lot). > The instant of seeing that monk started a sequence of thoughts > (gotta get back to the practice, not just the theory...). As I > progressed to the immigration checkpoint, I found myself recalling > the Patimokkha and trying to walk like a monk (keeping my gaze not > more than one plow-length ahead of me). I was aware of the regret > that I did not have a chance to talk to the monk. > > I am not so egotistical to believe that the world revolves around me > and that my past has kamma arranged all these things to arise for me > to experience. There are other forces at work (niyama) as well. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Well. perhaps "There are more things in heaven and earth ..."! ;-) In any case, it was certainly your kamma vipaka to respond to the presence of the monk in the auspicious way that you did. ----------------------------------------------- > > Would you agree that the following is correct: > 1. The world unfolds according to natural laws (niyama) > 2. My reaction to the world that I experience is determined by my > mental environment > 3. My mental environment is a mixture of recent experiences (short > term) and accumulations (long term). > 4. My reaction to the world that I experience contributes to my > mental environment (both short term and long term). > 5. My speech and action that follows my mental reaction will change > the world; in this way I am part of this world that unfolds > according to natural laws (point 1 above). > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, sort of a complex feedback mechanism. ----------------------------------------------- > > This line of thinking reminds me of Godel's incompleteness theorem; > we are part of this natural system (not an objective observer) and > as such, there are things about this natural system which cannot be > proven (or disproven). In order to prove (or disprove) these things, > we need to step outside this system. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm. Analogy only goes so far, I think. ------------------------------------------- > > Can I therefore conclude that seeing things as they truly are > perfectly (i.e. fully within the axiomatic system) is not enough to > transcend the system itself (i.e. experience Nibbana). One also > needs to step outside the system (i.e. faith beyond what has been > directly experienced). > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The nibbanic experience IS the stepping outside the system, isn't it? As I see it, one "steps outside the system" by means of a radical letting go. All that is done "within" the system is a preparation for that. But ultimately, there must just be a total, unconditional, letting go ... of everything. ------------------------------------------------ > > I suspect that I am tying myself into knots but I can't see the > fallacy of my argument. > > Howard, you are a mathematician, aren't you? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep. -------------------------------------------------- Can you help me?> > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Nope. ;-)) ------------------------------------------------ Metta,> > Rob M :-) > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23554 From: Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Hi Sarah, Jim, & all, This looks like a good way to go, so if there are no objections I'll start on wednesday, US time. Nina should be back by then. Also, I would like to encourage everyone to get a copy of this book, "The Path of Purification" by Bhadantacariya Buddhaghosa, trans. by Bhikkhu Nyanamoli, Buddhist Publication Society. It is indispensable for any study of abhidhamma and it will be helpful in filling in the gaps between what I post in email. Larry -------------------- Sarah wrote: I think the simplest thing for you, Jim and everyone would be if you proceed as normal with your installments in English only and Jim can 'reply' to them to add the Pali below, adding any key phrases and translations from the Tika when required. 23555 From: Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Hi Rob, Good to see you again. I've been thinking about you. I have a question about one of U Silananda's tables in CMA. When you get back to your books maybe we can discuss it. Larry 23556 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 5:03pm Subject: Re: Not such a silly question...... Hello James and Victor Thank you both for your comments and insight. Confusion about my position is largely due to the fact that I don't really have one! Or if I do have one, it never lasts! [yet another illustration of impermanence]. I need to reflect more deeply on what you have both said, but insert a little aside below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Free will exists because there > is karma, it has nothing to do with self or non-self. Free will, > broken down, is the conglomeration of certain energies directly > affecting other energies; this affectation can be as simple as > deciding to eat a cookie to making oneself levitate and fly, it > depends on the conglomeration of energy. Energies affect other > energies all the time (rain, fire, gravity, etc.) but certain > energies come together, form sentient life forms who can choose when > and how to affect other energies, and therefore build the false sense > of self. It isn't until this 'renegade' energy sees itself for what > it is that it will cease to manifest in suffering forms. Back to advertising research for a moment, "subliminal advertising" as a mass technique has been debunked and replaced with "shallow processing". These are prompts/conditions/energies that don't quite make it into our conscious awareness but are sufficient to trigger primary drives like lust and hunger. If I watch an advertisement that aims to trigger my hunger via shallow processing, then I get up from my chair and go for the cookie jar, is this an exercise of volition or is it just the playing out of conditions? Where is the "free" in "free will" during the huge amount of time when I'm not consciously deliberating about "what to do"? I'll end with a quote from Henry van Zeyst: "just as there is no entity like the world to be either eternal or not, for the world is only a passing process of unsubstantial phenomena to which such attributes are not applicable, so there is no entity like a will to be either determined or free, for the will is only a process of willing which arises and passes in dependence on arising and passing conditions, and which therefore can be neither determined nor free". Metta, Andrew 23557 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 5:18pm Subject: Re: Right Effort I think it is a personal decision, and it might be a hard decision to make. It is like asking if it is recommended to go forth and live a monastic life. Again it is a personal decision. The Buddha gave the Bodhisatta's reason for choosing the going forth: I will describe the Going Forth, how he, the One-with-Vision, went forth, how he reasoned and chose the Going Forth. "Household life is crowded, a realm of dust, while going forth is the open air." Seeing this, he went forth. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp3- 01.html Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "cetasika" wrote: > Is it desirable to accept the circumstances and continue the effort > to improve meditation or is it recommended to change the surroundings > like the place, job etc to make the life easier for improving > meditation 23558 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 6:37pm Subject: Re: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > Just an update of some news stories after the Ordination of Theravada > Bhikkhunis on the 28 February 2003 in Sri Lanka in a properly > constituted ceremony by Ten Bhikkhunis and a Twelve Bhikkhus. ____________ Dear Christine, I know you won't welcome what I have to say about this so I was hoping someone else would comment. Since no one has I add my opinion. I do not believe this ordination was 'properly constituted'. The 'bhikkhunis' were ordained in a sect outside Theravada. If it is decided that they can be considered as Theravda bhikkhuni then surely the male monks in Taiwan can also be considered Theravada bhikkhu and I don't think that is right. In the time of king Asoka(about 300 years after the buddha) he was worried about a split between different sects. The ancient monks of the orthodox Theravada refused to perform any sangha acts with the other groups (whose differences in some cases seem considerably more minor than the differences between theravda and other sects). He thought this was bad so he sent his minister to force the orthodox to agree. The energetic minister had no success so he started at one end of where the senior bhikkus were seated and chopped off heads one by one. They still refused. He kept going until he came to a member of the royal family who he recognized at which he stopped his killing.(I might have some details slighly wrong as I go on memory) The point of this story is that the ancient monks took such matters seriously. I know someone might argue that it is now a long time after this and since there are already declines in the behaviour of some Bhikkhus that such matters are no longer important. Again my opinion is that ordination procedures have always been taken seriously in theravada. So I think it is more helpful for the Sasana to encourage respect for the Vinaya (of which ordination procedures are a part) than to make efforts to bypass it. RobertK 23559 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 10:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Hi Larry, I am back home with my books now. I have CMA and U Silananda's lecture notes with his corrections to his CMA tables. I am flying off again in 24 hours, so I look forward to your question. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Good to see you again. I've been thinking about you. I have a question > about one of U Silananda's tables in CMA. When you get back to your > books maybe we can discuss it. > > Larry 23560 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Rob Nice to hear from you again. I'd like to offer a quick comment on your model. My comment is that there is no connection between the 'unfolding world' of item 1 (as I understand that term) and the other items. The unfolding world and the world of an individual's experiences are 2 quite different things. Similarly, an individual's speech and actions do not 'become part of' the unfolding world. I don't know if this makes sense to you (if not, perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean by the 'unfolding world'). Jon PS Is Hong Kong on your travel schedule for the near future? --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, ... > 1. The world unfolds according to natural laws (niyama) > 2. My reaction to the world that I experience is determined by my > mental environment > 3. My mental environment is a mixture of recent experiences (short > term) and accumulations (long term). > 4. My reaction to the world that I experience contributes to my > mental environment (both short term and long term). > 5. My speech and action that follows my mental reaction will change > the world; in this way I am part of this world that unfolds > according to natural laws (point 1 above). 23561 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Hi Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah (and Larry), > > Welcome back from your holidays! ..... Thanks, Jim. We always love the cool air, spring flowers, snow-capped mountains and quiet - such a contrast to the hustle bustle here. ..... > Thanks, I agree that this would certainly be a much better and simpler > way. I can respond to Larry's English installments by adding the > corresponding Pali along with some of the comments from the Maha Tika > and also add some comments of my own. It sounds like an interesting > study project and I'm looking forward to it. ..... Good.... please let us know anytime you’d like a slower pace. Your input is very valuable. Larry could always start a second project (? a sutta w/comy, another book of Nina’s) to run concurrently if it becomes too slow for him or others, perhaps. ..... > On another subject, I was wondering if you or anyone else has ever > come across an English translation of the following two passages from > these commentaries: > > Suttanipaata-a.t.thakathaa, pp. 46-52 on the Khaggavisaa.nasutta. > Theragaathaa-a.t.thakathaa, pp. 1-19 on the introductory verses. ..... I haven’t. I can’t help finding it disappointing that K.R.Norman didn’t include detailed comy notes to his transl of Thera-Theriigaathaa and especially to his recent transl of Suttanipaata. Mrs Rhys-Davids includes quite a lot of comy detail to her older transl of the first, but not on the intro verses that I can see. ..... > The passages contain a lot of valuable information about > mahaabodhisattas, paccekabodhisattas, and saavakabodhisattas. And > there is a conversation between the Buddha and Ananda in the SnA > passage about the time it takes for the first two types to become a > buddha. ..... Sounds very interesting. Btw on an old discussion we had on the height of the Buddha, I came across a detail that Kanthaka, the horse the future Buddha left the palace on, was also 18 cubits long and 18 cubits high, the same as the Buddha’s height given before. This is from the Introduction to the Jatakas. It also says that Kanthaka was “able to travel round the world from end to end, as it were round the rim of a wheel lying on its hub, and yet get back before breakfast and eat the food prepared for him.” I’d be glad to hear if you find the English translations you mention. Perhaps we can suggest it to the PTS when we write. With metta, Sarah ====== 23562 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) No 4 JJ Good to see you back! Thanks for the translation and particularly for the reminder about beginning insight being both brief and weak. I think this is sometimes overlooked in our wish to see 'evidence' of developing insight. It may sometimes be the case that insight is there but is so weak and so brief that it is not noticed or recognised for what it is. If so, that is a pity, because it means that the benefit of the moments of insight is largely lost. Jon --- jaranoh wrote: ... > It is said that the first three vippassana ~na~na are > 'tarunavipassana' because the moments of their arising (to > penetrate > the nature of dhamma) are brief, and they are weak. Dhamma arises, > and > the vippassana ~na~na, how breif it is, prenetrates the dhamma and > then falls away. This happens in the middle of stream of thinking > (technically, among other conciousness), which is a natural > tendency > before the first moment of satipa.t.thana as well as vippassana > ~na~na. 23563 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Dear Friends, I was asked (off-list) where I found the following translation and it is at the front of Warren’s book on ‘Buddhism In Translations’, first published in 1896. I wasn’t quite sure whether it was his translation (which is why I didn’t mention his name), though I assume it is. http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/index.htm Nyanaponika/B.Bodhi's translation of the sutta in brief can be found on p.77 of 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha'. Metta, Sarah ===== > THE THREE CHARACTERISTICS. > > Translated from the Anguttara-Nikâya (iii.1341). 23564 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Thanks, Sarah, Here's an alternate translation by Ven. Thanissaro: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-137.html --I like Warren's a lot better, personally, but am not competent to say which is better. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 1:26 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH > Dear Friends, > > I was asked (off-list) where I found the following translation and it is > at the front of Warren's book on 'Buddhism In Translations', first > published in 1896. I wasn't quite sure whether it was his translation > (which is why I didn't mention his name), though I assume it is. > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/index.htm > > Nyanaponika/B.Bodhi's translation of the sutta in brief can be found on > p.77 of 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha'. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > > THE THREE CHARACTERISTICS. > > > > Translated from the Anguttara-Nikâya (iii.1341). 23565 From: peterdac4298 Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Hi Jon et al Thanks for the offer. Right now I'm in Udon, holed up for a couple of weeks, so have a chance to access DSG from a local Internet Cafe. With more time to hand, can be a little more coherent. I do apreciate your offers for assistance, very heartening to know. My first aim is to visit Ajahn Maha Boowa at Wat Pa Baan Taad, hence the Udon stop. After that I have not made any plans, as I am rather hoping to be accepted (ie ordained) into his group. Since this is largely a collection of forest monasteries where the focus is on simplicity and training through the implementation of the Vinaya, I rather doubt if I'll have many opportunities to get online during the next few years. However, when ever I do I'll make sure I put in an appearance at DSG. I do hope Yahoo Groups keep my membership valid inspite of prolong periods of inactivity. The convenience of connecting through my personalized Yahoo page will no doubt go, but do hope that group memberships don't time out too: I've a feeling they should be OK. Aplogies for spelling. Not too supprisingly, Thai internet cafe's don't seem to have any applications for English language users, at least not up in this neck of the woods. Cheers Peter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Peter > > Congratulations on making the effort to get to Thailand for Dhamma > study. I wish you success in finding those with good understanding. > > Any time you have the opportunity, we would be happy to hear how > things are going. > > Please feel free to ask if you would like any names or addresses. > Between the members of this list there is a lot of Thailand > experience, covering all 'schools' of dhamma contacts. > > Jon > > --- peterdac4298 wrote: > Hi All > > > > Just to say that I'm off to Thailand. Right now I'm waiting on the > > last leg of my flight at Brunei Int. with about fifteen minutes to > > go before assembling at the depature gate, having already completed > > > sixteen hours from Heathrow. > > > > I doubt if I'll get onto the 'net for a long time. I'm hoping to > > be > > taken on by a forest monatery for training. To be taken seriously, > > a commitement of five years is the minimum anyone will consider. > > However, if an opportunity arrises before then, I'll certainly try > > to take advantage of it. > > > > In the meantime, I have Nina's book to work through and will try to > > cover other titles from Zolag. Sorry I did'nt get the chance to > > meet up with Alan... > > > > Tannoy is announcing my flight, so must go. > > > > Please excuse spelling, no time for spell check. > > > > Mettacittena > > > > Peter Da Costa 23566 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:04am Subject: Re: Off to Thailand --- Best wishes in thailand, Peter. I plan to spend a week their late september, but unfortunately nowhere near Udon Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "peterdac4298" wrote: > Hi Jon et al > > Thanks for the offer. Right now I'm in Udon, holed up for a couple > of > weeks, so have a chance to access DSG from a local Internet Cafe. > With more time to hand, can be a little more coherent. I do > apreciate > your offers for assistance, very heartening to know. My first aim is > to > visit Ajahn Maha Boowa at Wat Pa Baan Taad, hence the Udon stop. > After that I have not made any plans, as I am rather hoping to be > accepted (ie ordained) into his group. Since this 23567 From: Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 0:04pm Subject: object condition Hi Rob, Glad to catch you. Here's my question: on page 308 of CMA (Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma), Table 8.3 "Conditioning and Conditioned States of the 24 Conditions", how is one to understand "2. Object Condition". It says the conditioning states (in other words the objects) are 89 cittas, 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas, Nibbana, and concepts. The conditioned states (in other words the subjects of those objects) are 89 cittas and 52 cetasikas. This seems to imply that Nibbana could be the object of any of the 89 cittas or 52 cetasikas. This surely isn't the case or am I misreading it? What I am looking for is clarification on which cittas and cetasikas can have Nibbana and concepts as object and what Nibbana and concepts do as conditioners. Larry 23568 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:19pm Subject: Re: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha Hello Robert, Your post made me sad, using such an extreme example which can't be verified, and which doesn't actually seem to relate to the Bhikkhuni Sangha instituted by the Buddha. (In any case, my understanding is that there were fake monks freeloading on the system - not monks of other traditions). The Mahayana Bhikkunis lineage was transplanted from Theravada, and is recognised as having been continuously kept and true to the Bhikkhuni Vinaya. Why else do you think the senior Bhikkhus in Sri Lanka agreed to be part of the ceremony? Were they not "encouraging respect for the Vinaya (of which ordination procedures are a part)" or were they "making efforts to bypass it."? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > Just an update of some news stories after the Ordination of > Theravada > > Bhikkhunis on the 28 February 2003 in Sri Lanka in a properly > > constituted ceremony by Ten Bhikkhunis and a Twelve Bhikkhus. > ____________ > Dear Christine, > I know you won't welcome what I have to say about this so I was > hoping someone else would comment. Since no one has I add my opinion. > I do not believe this ordination was 'properly constituted'. > The 'bhikkhunis' were ordained in a sect outside Theravada. If it is > decided that they can be considered as Theravda bhikkhuni then > surely the male monks in Taiwan can also be considered Theravada > bhikkhu and I don't think that is right. > In the time of king Asoka(about 300 years after the buddha) he was > worried about a split between different sects. The ancient monks of > the orthodox Theravada refused to perform any sangha acts with the > other groups (whose differences in some cases seem considerably more > minor than the differences between theravda and other sects). He > thought this was bad so he sent his minister to force the orthodox > to agree. The energetic minister had no success so he started at one > end of where the senior bhikkus were seated and chopped off heads > one by one. They still refused. He kept going until he came to a > member of the royal family who he recognized at which he stopped his > killing.(I might have some details slighly wrong as I go on memory) > The point of this story is that the ancient monks took such matters > seriously. > I know someone might argue that it is now a long time after this and > since there are already declines in the behaviour of some Bhikkhus > that such matters are no longer important. Again my opinion is that > ordination procedures have always been taken seriously in theravada. > So I think it is more helpful for the Sasana to encourage respect > for the Vinaya (of which ordination procedures are a part) than to > make efforts to bypass it. > RobertK 23569 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:35pm Subject: Re: object condition Hi Larry, The purpose of Table 8.3 in CMA is to clarify the operation of the 24 conditions by listing all possible conditioning states and all possible conditioned states. It is incorrect to say that every member of the list of conditioned states (i.e. Nibbana) conditions all of the conditioned states (i.e. 89 cittas, 52 cetasikas). The only cittas that can have Nibbana as object are the supramundane cittas (8 or 40, depending on how you count them). The Path cittas arise once (performing the function of uprooting defilements) but the Fruit cittas can arise many times. These cittas are described on P66-68 of CMA. The cetasikas arising with these cittas depends on the associated jhanic state. Table 2.3 on P101 (Sampayoga method) and Table 2.4 on P112-113 (Sangaha method) list the cetasikas arising with these cittas. When considering which cittas can take concepts as object, it is probably easier to do this by process of elimination. The only cittas that cannot have concepts as an object would be the five pairs of sense consciousness plus the supramundane cittas. In other words, there are 89 - 10 - 8 = 71 cittas that can take concepts as objects. As an aside, the 12 immaterial sphere cittas have specific concepts as object whereas the remaining 59 cittas are not limited to a specific concept as object. Table 2.3 and 2.4 list the specific cetasikas arising with each citta, but among the 71 cittas having concepts as objects, each of the 52 cetasikas are represented. You have also asked about what Nibbana and concepts do as conditioners. Each citta experiences an object and all cetasikas arising with the citta experience the same object. Therefore an object conditions the citta and its associated cetasikas. The way in which the object conditions the citta and associated cetasikas is "object-condition" (arammana-paccaya). As an analogy, an invalid may pull themselves up using a rope and may stand with the support of a walking stick. Just as the rope and the walking stick give support to an invalid, so also the objects give support to cittas and cetasikas to enable them to arise. For example, visible object is related to eye-consciousness with its associated cetasikas (and the other cittas / cetasikas in the citta- process) by object-condition (arammana-paccaya). Larry, did I answer your question? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Glad to catch you. Here's my question: on page 308 of CMA (Comprehensive > Manual of Abhidhamma), Table 8.3 "Conditioning and Conditioned States of > the 24 Conditions", how is one to understand "2. Object Condition". It > says the conditioning states (in other words the objects) are 89 cittas, > 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas, Nibbana, and concepts. The conditioned states > (in other words the subjects of those objects) are 89 cittas and 52 > cetasikas. This seems to imply that Nibbana could be the object of any > of the 89 cittas or 52 cetasikas. This surely isn't the case or am I > misreading it? > > What I am looking for is clarification on which cittas and cetasikas can > have Nibbana and concepts as object and what Nibbana and concepts do as > conditioners. > > Larry 23570 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Hi Jon, Let me try to express this concept another way. "The world" operates as a natural system according to a set of rules (niyama). There is no "self" with "objective observer" status. The stream of nama-rupa called "Rob" is not separate from "the world", rather it is part of "the world"; subject to the same set of rules. This stream of nama-rupa has the capacity to impact "the world". As an analogy, imagine you are watching a billiard game. If you are sitting in the stands or watching on TV, it is clear what is happening (you have "objective observer" status). Now imagine that you are a very, very small bug resting on the cue-ball. The perspective of the small bug living on the cue ball limits the level of understanding it can achieve (this is my understanding of Godel's incompleteness theorem). To "see things as they truly are", the small bug must be able to get off of the cue ball to be able to take an objective observer status. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > My comment is that there is no connection between the 'unfolding > world' of item 1 (as I understand that term) and the other items. > The unfolding world and the world of an individual's experiences are > 2 quite different things. > > Similarly, an individual's speech and actions do not 'become part of' > the unfolding world. > > I don't know if this makes sense to you (if not, perhaps you could > elaborate on what you mean by the 'unfolding world'). > > Jon > > PS Is Hong Kong on your travel schedule for the near future? > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > ... > > 1. The world unfolds according to natural laws (niyama) > > 2. My reaction to the world that I experience is determined by my > > mental environment > > 3. My mental environment is a mixture of recent experiences (short > > term) and accumulations (long term). > > 4. My reaction to the world that I experience contributes to my > > mental environment (both short term and long term). > > 5. My speech and action that follows my mental reaction will change > > the world; in this way I am part of this world that unfolds > > according to natural laws (point 1 above). 23571 From: Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Hi, Rob and Jon - In a message dated 7/22/03 7:25:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Jon, > > Let me try to express this concept another way. > > "The world" operates as a natural system according to a set of rules > (niyama). There is no "self" with "objective observer" status. The > stream of nama-rupa called "Rob" is not separate from "the world", > rather it is part of "the world"; subject to the same set of rules. > This stream of nama-rupa has the capacity to impact "the world". > > As an analogy, imagine you are watching a billiard game. If you are > sitting in the stands or watching on TV, it is clear what is > happening (you have "objective observer" status). Now imagine that > you are a very, very small bug resting on the cue-ball. The > perspective of the small bug living on the cue ball limits the level > of understanding it can achieve (this is my understanding of Godel's > incompleteness theorem). To "see things as they truly are", the > small bug must be able to get off of the cue ball to be able to take > an objective observer status. > > Comments? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ========================== Rob, you write "There is no 'self' with 'objective observer' status. The stream of nama-rupa called 'Rob' is not separate from 'the world', rather it is part of 'the world'; subject to the same set of rules." I agree with you on this, Rob. Moreover, from my phenomenalist perspective, matters are even more complex. As much as "I" am part of "the world", and impact it, "the world" is part of "me". There is "my world", and there is "another world" for every other sentient being (namarupic stream), and these all interact and interpenetrate like mirrors placed at the interstices of Indra's net, each reflecting all the others - reflections within reflections within reflections ... ad infinitum. Where is there a stand for an "objective observer"? Where is there a place to stand? There is none, neither within the whole nor without. When the "I" slips away, it is like the world slipping away from under one's feet. No anchor. No foothold. No place to stand. The full realization of "no place to stand" and letting go of the "need" for such a place is, perhaps, what liberation is about. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23572 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 5:54pm Subject: Re: My time with A. Sujin. 6. Dear Nina, I hope you enjoy/ed your holidays. Meanwhile I am enjoying your series, "My time with A. Sujin." As uninstructed worldlings aspiring to greatness, we perversely believe that the way to venerate the Buddha is by turning our attention to thoughts of learning and progressing. If we think of present realities at all, it is with disdain -- it is as if they were inferior to certain past or future realities and therefore, unworthy of attention. So it is refreshing to read, for example: > A. Sujin explained that seeing here is the same as seeing in another place, hearing here is the same as hearing in another place. Seeing is always seeing and hearing is always hearing, they are ultimate realities with their unalterable characteristics. We learnt that the Abhidhamma is not theory, that it can be directly applied, and this is satipatthana. She would often remind us, ¦And how about this moment now?‚ Whatever questions people asked, she would always guide them to the present moment. > Kind regards, Ken 23573 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Hi Sarah, > Thanks, Jim. We always love the cool air, spring flowers, snow-capped > mountains and quiet - such a contrast to the hustle bustle here. Sounds like you had a refreshing holiday! > > Thanks, I agree that this would certainly be a much better and simpler > > way. I can respond to Larry's English installments by adding the > > corresponding Pali along with some of the comments from the Maha Tika > > and also add some comments of my own. It sounds like an interesting > > study project and I'm looking forward to it. > ..... > Good.... please let us know anytime you'd like a slower pace. Your input > is very valuable. Larry could always start a second project (? a sutta > w/comy, another book of Nina's) to run concurrently if it becomes too > slow for him or others, perhaps. I don't want the pace to slow down just on my account. I have prepared the Pali text and it's ready to be added to the English translation anytime and I can keep up with the pace but without adding much in the way of my own comments. I could just supply the Pali text while at the same time do the detailed study at my own pace and post the results when done and that could take some time. I have started on XIV.1 and already I've run into some syntactical problems with the first sentence. I'm not even sure if ~Na.namoli or P.M. Tin have translated it correctly and so I'll have to spend some time trying to understand and confirm whether or not their translations agree with the Pali. I also need to study the Maha Tika which contains much of great value. Should I supply just the Pali (Vism) text for each of Larry's installments and follow up later with my comments, or defer the Pali additions until I post my comments? Either way is fine with me. [...] > Btw on an old discussion we had on the height of the Buddha, I came across > a detail that Kanthaka, the horse the future Buddha left the palace on, > was also 18 cubits long and 18 cubits high, the same as the Buddha's > height given before. This is from the Introduction to the Jatakas. It also > says that Kanthaka was "able to travel round the world from end to end, as > it were round the rim of a wheel lying on its hub, and yet get back before > breakfast and eat the food prepared for him." That must have been some horse! It reminds me of the horse treasure of a wheel-turning monarch. > I'd be glad to hear if you find the English translations you mention. > Perhaps we can suggest it to the PTS when we write. Thanks for your response. I don't think PTS would publish a translation unless it was the entire commentary. I thought that maybe BPS might have something in the way of translated extracts. It seems to me that these passages are hardly known in the English-speaking world. I have yet to study them in detail but from what I've read so far it's like a bodhisatta doctrine being laid out in quite an impressive way and a good response to some of those Mahayana critics. I think you will be familiar with some of the material eg. the 8 conditions needed to become a Mahaabodhisatta as in the Buddhava.msa, but there is also the 5 conditions for a paccekabodhisatta and 2 (adhikaara and chandataa) for the saavakabodhisatta. It would make for a worthwhile translation project sometime. Best wishes, Jim 23574 From: Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object condition Thanks Rob, You answered my question very well and inspired me to look into it in greater detail. When you said: "As an aside, the 12 immaterial sphere cittas have specific concepts as object whereas the remaining 59 cittas are not limited to a specific concept as object." do you mean the 40 meditation subjects: 10 kasinas, 10 kinds of foulness, 10 recollections, 4 devine abidings, 4 immaterial states, 1 perception of repulsiveness in nutriment, and the one defining of the 4 elements? If you have time could you give us a word of explanation on Path Condition? Larry 23575 From: Dr Jose M Sanz-Tonnelier Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:51pm Subject: Re: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha Deare Christine, it may be very sad, but last week I attended a funeral of a theravatan monk and during one of the dhamma talks a very senior theravatan monk ( the most senior Laotian monk in Australia, from Brisbane) mention that women do not reach nirvana, that they have two ways to go to nirvana, one is if they are reborn as MAN or if one of their children becomes a monk. So with this way of thinking, what change do women have to become monks. Metta. Ajahn Jose > Hello Robert, > > Your post made me sad, using such an extreme example which can't be > verified, and which doesn't actually seem to relate to the Bhikkhuni > Sangha instituted by the Buddha. (In any case, my understanding is > that there were fake monks freeloading on the system - not monks of > other traditions). The Mahayana Bhikkunis lineage was transplanted > from Theravada, and is recognised as having been continuously kept > and true to the Bhikkhuni Vinaya. Why else do you think the senior > Bhikkhus in Sri Lanka agreed to be part of the ceremony? Were they > not "encouraging respect for the Vinaya (of which ordination > procedures are a part)" or were they "making efforts to bypass it."? > > > metta and peace, > Christine 23576 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:09am Subject: RobM's 24hr deadline (was Re: Right Effort) Hi RobM, I know I’ve probably missed the 24hr deadline, but hopefully you’ll still be reading. It’s always good to see your around and read your input. When you disappear for more than a few weeks, members start asking me where you are;-) I appreciated your posts and explanations to Cetasika and Larry very much. --- robmoult wrote: > > Buddhist ethics are very simple, yet very complex at the same time. > > Simple in that anything motivated by attachment (lobha), aversion > (dosa) or delusion (moha) is unwholesome / unskillful / bad > (akusala) and anything motivated by their opposites is wholesome / > skillful / good (kusala). > > Complex in that thoughts rise and fall away again at an incredibly > fast speed so that there can be many, many motivations behind a > single thought / word / action. ..... Good point and examples and I should learn from your use of non-stilted language;-) ..... > Kammic weight is tied to the intensity of volition involved. Since > we have so many unwholesome accumulations, it takes a major effort > to perform kusala. Because it takes such a major effort to perform > kusala (moving against the current as it were), kusala acts tend to > create strong positive kamma. If, in your heart, you can say that > the main motivation behind the changes contemplated is wholesome, > then the changes should be encouraged; the wholesome kamma created > will be much, much stronger than whatever unwholesome kamma you pick > up along the way. ..... Without questioning what you write here, I want to share with you a few comments from one of our recent discussions with A.Sujin on kamma, kamma patha and vipaka while it’s still fresh in my memory. This follows on from previous discussions about kamma bringing results . In brief, A.Sujin stressed: - only the 10 kamma-patha bring rebirth consciousnes and all vipaka after rebirth. - other kusala and akusala cittas in the javana process don’t bring results. For example now, putting sugar in the tea or gardening - of course there are kilesa, but no results. She asked what is the use of the 3 rounds (va.t.ta), i.e kilesa vatta (round of defilements), kamma vatta (kamma round) and vipaka round (round of results), if kilesa and kamma are the same in effect. In fact, kilesa conditions kamma, kamma conditions vipaka. We read about the details and distinctions of these in paticca samuppada (dependent origination). She also asked what’s the use of knowing the details of kamma-patha if all akusala and kusala cetana/kamma bring results. As you are explaining to Larry, conditions are very complication. A.Sujin was also discussing upanissaya paccaya (decisive support condition) and kamma condition. She menitioned that if all kilesa bring results, there’d be no need for kamma condition (implying it’s functions would already be carried out by upanissaya condition). I hope I haven’t misrepresented any of the points as I understand them- Sukin or Jon, please let me know if I have. Rob, let us know if you have any further comments and I hope Larry and others find more questions for you too;-) With metta, Sarah ====== 23577 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) No 4 Hi Jaran, Good to see you around - we missed you in Bkk on our brief visit. Will you be joining the trip to Burma (which a few of us from DSG will be joining)? --- jaranoh wrote: > ---- > Now question (from Jaran): In the case of paccayaparigaha~na~na, > pa~n~na understands the conditions of dhamma, what about the > sammasana-~nana, what is the things to be understood by pa~na~na? > Anyone, please? > ---- There was a little more discussion on this question and one of Nina's in Bkk - I'd like to listen to the tape first and get back on it in a day or two, so this note is just to ask you not to run away too quickly, but to keep reading and posting in the meantime;-) Always good to read your translations and especially now with the added Pali detail too. Hope all's well in Singapore now. Our good friend, Erik, is now working there. Metta, Sarah p.s If anyone else from overseas is joining the Burma trip in Bkk and wants to meet up with us during the weekend before the trip, pls let me know off-list ================= 23578 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Hi Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > I don't want the pace to slow down just on my account. I have prepared > the Pali text and it's ready to be added to the English translation > anytime and I can keep up with the pace but without adding much in the > way of my own comments. I could just supply the Pali text while at the > same time do the detailed study at my own pace and post the results > when done and that could take some time. I have started on XIV.1 and > already I've run into some syntactical problems with the first > sentence. I'm not even sure if ~Na.namoli or P.M. Tin have translated > it correctly and so I'll have to spend some time trying to understand > and confirm whether or not their translations agree with the Pali. I > also need to study the Maha Tika which contains much of great value. ..... It sounds like you’re already doing some useful homework and research, Jim. .... > Should I supply just the Pali (Vism) text for each of Larry's > installments and follow up later with my comments, or defer the > Pali additions until I post my comments? Either way is fine with me. ...... I think either way is very fine and it just depends on how you prefer to proceed. Maybe you don't need to fix a 'rule' at this stage and can just see how it works out. If you're busy you may wish to post the Pali first, while at other times, you may be ready to add some of your comments with it. ...... > Thanks for your response. I don't think PTS would publish a > translation unless it was the entire commentary. I thought that maybe > BPS might have something in the way of translated extracts. It seems > to me that these passages are hardly known in the English-speaking > world. I have yet to study them in detail but from what I've read so > far it's like a bodhisatta doctrine being laid out in quite an > impressive way and a good response to some of those Mahayana critics. > I think you will be familiar with some of the material eg. the 8 > conditions needed to become a Mahaabodhisatta as in the Buddhava.msa, > but there is also the 5 conditions for a paccekabodhisatta and 2 > (adhikaara and chandataa) for the saavakabodhisatta. It would make for > a worthwhile translation project sometime. ..... I’ll ask B.Bodhi (if there are any BPS translated extracts) when I write on the other point as well. The translation to the Sutta Nipata Comy has been high on my ‘wish’ list for a long time. Out of interest, is it a long text, like the Udana Comy, or a short one? I don’t know anything about it except that it would be useful to refer to when friends quote passages from the text with different interpretations from my own;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 23579 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Perfections, Equanimity, Qu. --- dear Nina, Apologies for taking so long to answer. My life seems to have done a bit of a loopy loop these last couple of weeks. Sometimes, I think this dhamma is just too hard and then there is the reminder that even those moments of despair are real and can be known. I appreciate your comment: 'We still have problems. We need also Upekkha. ----- if there is also Upekkha at times, we can be evenminded about people's reactions.' I find that in my thinking, I feel quite secure that I'm cool, calm and collected, but when confronted with hurtful matters, the citta so conditions rupa that my voice changes and my body hurts. We can blame the other for hurting us, but we know that if we didn't have defilements then nothing would hurt. Long way to go!!! Thank you for you reply about the Bodhisattva, and it is clearer for me. I think he was giving the others the opportunity to rejoice in his equanimity; as a monk, that would be expected of him, but as a lay person it would be more obvious, perhaps. Patience, patience and more patience Azita In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita, > I always appreciate it if people mention what is not clear. I can add a > footnote. This passage could be read in two ways: > op 13-07-2003 00:26 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > >> Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 6. > [snip] > Panna is necessary too. We need to see ourselves and > others as condiitoned realities. > Nina. 23580 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Victor, Sorry, for this delay. You’ve been making some helpful comments. --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thank you for your reply and references. I appreciate it. > > Desire itself can be quite neutral in terms of being > skillful/wholesome or unskillful/unwholesome. It is what/whom one > desires for makes the difference. ..... I’m not sure I quite follow you here. Are you saying that if the object of consciousness is say, the Buddha, that the ‘desire’ must be wholesome? Does it mean there cannot be any attachment when one thinks about the Buddha or pays respect in a temple, for example? ..... >Thus the word "desire" needs to > be understood in its proper context. Pali words "chanda" > and "iccha" can be translated as "desire". However, each Pali > original has it's own connotation. ..... I complete agree with you here. The context has to be understood, especially if we’re just relying on a translation using the word ‘desire’. Perhaps this was your point above. Often, the distinction is clear-cut. In our daily life, I don’t think it’s so simple as to say that the ‘desire, motivation, and aspiration to develop wholesome qualities’ must be wholesome. I liked (yet another) pithy paragraph of Ken H’s (to Howard): ***** “What is essential is an appreciation of the benefits of calm, equanimity, detachment and other kusala states. This is different from wanting those states to arise. When there is wanting, there is no calm, equanimity or detachment -- quite the reverse.” ***** > Thank you again for your reply. Your comments are appreciated. ..... Likewise, Victor. Metta, Sarah ====== 23581 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 1. Dear Nina & All, I know the translation of this long series on the Perfections has been difficult and time-consuming for you, but very helpful to those of us who’ve been reading. Many thanks also to Kom for his assistance. There were a couple of paragraphs below which I found very relevant. ***** QUOTE “Perfections. Epilogue 1. Epilogue The Defilements of the Perfections. There are defilements of the ten perfections when attachment arises, when there is enjoyment and clinging. When taken separately, the following is explained: ‘Taken separately, discriminating thoughts (vikappa) over gifts and recipients are the defilement of the perfection of giving.’ Sometimes when we perform deeds of generosity we select the receiver or we have discriminating thoughts about the gifts, by attachment, aversion, fear or delusion. Then the perfection of generosity is defiled, it is not pure.” ..... S: The defilements of the perfections are very helpful to consider, I think. In my case, there are almost always discriminating thoughts over gifts and recipients. Don't we also encourage others to have discriminating thoughts as well? ..... QUOTE “‘Discriminating thoughts over beings and times are the defilement of the perfection of virtue.’ Sometimes we can observe morality towards particular persons, such as people we respect, our parents and so on. We may observe morality by showing respect to them in our gestures and speech, but we cannot do the same to other people. Or we may have discriminating thoughts as to the time of observing morality, we observe it only on Uposatha day [1] or a particular day we select to observe the precepts, and then we may believe that we are perfect in morality, although at other days we do not observe morality.” ..... S: I thought about just this point on holiday. The consideration and effort to help and please my mother would not have been made to other friends or strangers. I thought about the metta sutta and example of the mother’s love to her baby. Can we treat everyone with the care and attention we might give our baby or mother? And then, I thought, this is just for a limited time and special holiday. Another one - when I’m tired and jet-lagged, I think it’s excusable to be grumpy or not so considerate. A special time...;-( .... All the other discriminating thoughts were interesting too, such as: QUOTE “We read further on in the Commentary to the ‘Basket of conduct’ about the defilement of the other perfections as follows: ‘Discriminating thoughts of delight in sense pleasures and existence, and of discontent with their pacification, are the defilement of the perfection of renunciation. Discriminating thoughts of "I" and "mine" are the defilement of the perfection of wisdom...’ Even when we think in that way of paññå, it is already defiled, we have attachment to the thought of ‘my paññå’. We read further on about the defilement of the perfections: ‘Discriminating thoughts leaning to listlessness and restlessness, of the perfection of energy; discriminating thoughts of oneself and others, of the perfection of patience; discriminating thoughts of avowing to have seen what was not seen, etc., of the perfection of truthfulness; discriminating thoughts perceiving flaws in the requisites of enlightenment and virtues in their opposites, of the perfection of determination; discriminating thoughts confusing what is harmful with what is beneficial, of the perfection of loving-kindness; and discriminating thoughts over the desirable and undesirable, of the perfection of equanimity. Thus the defilements should be understood.’ “ ***** I think these discriminations (vikappa) are well worth reflecting on.I’d be glad to hear any other comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 23582 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha Hi, Bhante (and Christine) - In a message dated 7/22/03 11:51:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sanz@n... writes: > Deare Christine, it may be very sad, but last week I attended a funeral of > a > theravatan monk and during one of the dhamma talks a very senior theravatan > monk ( the most senior Laotian monk in Australia, from Brisbane) mention > that women do not reach nirvana, that they have two ways to go to nirvana, > one is if they are reborn as MAN or if one of their children becomes a monk. > > So with this way of thinking, what change do women have to become monks. > Metta. Ajahn Jose > > >Hello Robert, > > > >Your post made me sad, using such an extreme example which can't be > >verified, and which doesn't actually seem to relate to the Bhikkhuni > >Sangha instituted by the Buddha. (In any case, my understanding is > >that there were fake monks freeloading on the system - not monks of > >other traditions). The Mahayana Bhikkunis lineage was transplanted > >from Theravada, and is recognised as having been continuously kept > >and true to the Bhikkhuni Vinaya. Why else do you think the senior > >Bhikkhus in Sri Lanka agreed to be part of the ceremony? Were they > >not "encouraging respect for the Vinaya (of which ordination > >procedures are a part)" or were they "making efforts to bypass it."? > > > > > >metta and peace, > >Christine > ================================== I found the following at http://www.uq.net.au/slsoc/bsq/bsqtr07.htm ****************************** The accomplishment of these Theris of old is that they gave living proof of the Buddha's utterance (Sam.Nik, 1, 5, 6): yassa etâdisa.m yâna.m ittiyâ purisassa va sa ve etena yânena nibbanasseva santike ti This is the only vehicle Be it a woman or be it a man The one who takes this vehicle Can reach the peace of Nibbâna where the chariot referred to is the Buddha-Dhamma. ********************************** My understanding is that there is completely accepted within Theravada the existence of women arahants. What I *have* heard is that Theravada expresses the belief that with regard to the lifetime that one becomes a Buddha, not a circumstance with which many of us need personally concern ourselves, the being will be born as a male. Assuming this belief as fact, what does it matter if a woman has to pay the price of accepting rebirth in an inferior physical vehicle in her final lifetime in order to become a Buddha? ;-) [More seriously, this restriction on the sex of a Buddha may or may not be a reality, and it may or may not reflect a male chauvinism. But it strikes me as a relatively unimportant issue, in any case. We all have been males at times and females at times over many, many lives. And I'm not anticipating becoming an arahant any time soon, let alone a Buddha.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23583 From: shakti Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Burma itinerary, finally Hi Betty, I have a few other questions about the trip. Do you know how long it takes to get a visa to Burma if we apply in Bangkok? Is it possible to stay in Burma and return a little later for the same price? Please advise. Thanks Deanna Johnson "Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: Dear Friends, For those of you who might be interested in joining Than Achaan Sujin and members of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation for what we hope will be a worthwhile and memorable trip to Burma, including lots of time for Dhamma discussions and a presentation of food to monks, the following information is given. The trip will go from October 20 (meet at Don Muang Airport 6am) - Oct 24 (arrival at Don Muang 18:40-6:40pm) and will cost Baht 27,500 per person, for double room occupancy or Baht 31,900 for single room occupancy. You will need to make your own arrangements to and from Bangkok, as well as hotel accomodations before and after the dates of the trip. If you would like a copy of the itinerary, please send me an e-mail at my private email address below and I will send it to you as an attachment to your private email address, which you will need to provide as well. metta, Betty _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 e-mail: beyugala@k... 23584 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Hi Sarah, > I think either way is very fine and it just depends on how you prefer to > proceed. Maybe you don't need to fix a 'rule' at this stage and can just > see how it works out. If you're busy you may wish to post the Pali first, > while at other times, you may be ready to add some of your comments with > it. Okay, thanks. I think I'll hold off posting the Pali unless there is some need or request for it. eg. someone wants to know the Pali for a certain word or phrase. > I'll ask B.Bodhi (if there are any BPS translated extracts) when I write > on the other point as well. Thanks! > The translation to the Sutta Nipata Comy has been high on my 'wish' list > for a long time. Out of interest, is it a long text, like the Udana Comy, > or a short one? I don't know anything about it except that it would be > useful to refer to when friends quote passages from the text with > different interpretations from my own;-) The PTS text of the commentary to the Sutta Nipata is 608 pp (not counting the indices) and is ascribed to Buddhaghosa. The Udana comy is smaller with 436 pp. The two volume translation is very large because of the footnotes and the print size. There is still a lot of commentaries yet to be translated and I suppose most of them will remain untranslated into English in our lifetime. It's fortunate that some of the Abhidhamma commentaries have been translated along with some for a number of texts in the Khuddakanikaaya. Best wishes, Jim 23585 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:47am Subject: Re: object condition Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > You answered my question very well and inspired me to look into it in > greater detail. When you said: > > "As an aside, the 12 immaterial sphere cittas have specific concepts as > object whereas the remaining 59 cittas are not limited to a specific > concept as object." > > do you mean the 40 meditation subjects: 10 kasinas, 10 kinds of > foulness, 10 recollections, 4 devine abidings, 4 immaterial states, 1 > perception of repulsiveness in nutriment, and the one defining of the 4 > elements? The 12 immaterial sphere (arupavacara) cittas are: - 4 Arupavacara kusala cittas (moral consciousness) - 4 Arupavacara vipaka cittas (resultant consciousness) - 4 Arupavacara kiriya cittas (functional consciousness) The four arupavacara kusala cittas may be acquired by persons who are not yet arahats whereas the four arupavacara kiriya cittas can arise only in arahats. These two types of arupavacara cittas are experienced in the sense sphere as well as in the immaterial sphere (planes 28-31 in the 31 planes of existence). The four arupavacara vipaka cittas are experienced in the immaterial-sphere (planes 28-31) only. They are the kamma-resultants of arupavacara kusala cittas. A person who acquires arupa-jhana and maintains it till his death will be reborn in the immaterial sphere (planes 28-31). The object of the rupavacara cittas depend on the kasina chosen and that is where the 40 subjects of meditation come in. Once you hit the fifth jhana, the object is fixed. The object of the first level of arupavacara jhana is "infinite space" (plane 28). The object of the second level of arupavacara is "infinte consciousness" (plane 29). The object of the third level of arupavacara is "nothingness" (plane 30) and the object of the fourth level of arupavacara is "neither perception nor non-perception" (plane 31). > > If you have time could you give us a word of explanation on Path > Condition? > Path-condition (magga-paccaya) refers to the 12 path-factors: - knowledge (panna = samma-ditthi, right understanding) - (right or wrong) thought-conception (vitakka) - right speech (samma-vaca) - right bodily action (samma-kammanta) - right livelihood (samma-ajiva) - (right or wrong) energy (viriya) - (right or wrong) mindfulness (sati) - (right or wrong) concentration (samadhi) - wrong views (miccha-ditthi) - wrong speech (miccha-vaca) - wrong bodily action (miccha-kammanta) - wrong livelihood (miccha-ajiva) These factors contain the eightfold noble path (wholesome) and their opposites (unwholesome). The wholesome path constituents form a path conditioning their co-nascent citta, cetasikas and produced rupas to bear results in a blissful state whereas the unwholesome path constituents condition results in a woeful state. Here is what Nina said in her "24-conditions": The cetasikas which are called path-factors are the conditioning dhammas (paccayas) and these are related to the dhammas arising together with them, the conditioned dhammas (paccayupanna dhammas), by way of path-condition, maggapaccaya. The path-factors which are path-condition are not merely the factors of the noble eightfold Path which leads to enlightenment, but the term path-factor should be taken in a wider sense. Path-factors can be akusala cetasikas which constitute the wrong path, or they can be sobhana cetasikas which constitute the right path. The path- factors of the wrong path lead downwards, to an unhappy rebirth, and the pathfactors of the right path lead to a happy rebirth, or, when they are constituents of the noble eightfold Path, they lead to deliverance from the cycle of birth and death. I am on the road, so I don't have all my books with me. If you want more details, you may have to wait until the weekend. Metta, Rob M :-) 23586 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Rob, you write "There is no 'self' with 'objective observer' status. > The stream of nama-rupa called 'Rob' is not separate from 'the world', rather > it is part of 'the world'; subject to the same set of rules." I agree with you > on this, Rob. Moreover, from my phenomenalist perspective, matters are even > more complex. As much as "I" am part of "the world", and impact it, "the world" > is part of "me". There is "my world", and there is "another world" for every > other sentient being (namarupic stream), and these all interact and > interpenetrate like mirrors placed at the interstices of Indra's net, each reflecting all > the others - reflections within reflections within reflections ... ad > infinitum. Where is there a stand for an "objective observer"? Where is there a place > to stand? There is none, neither within the whole nor without. When the "I" > slips away, it is like the world slipping away from under one's feet. No > anchor. No foothold. No place to stand. The full realization of "no place to stand" > and letting go of the "need" for such a place is, perhaps, what liberation is > about. > The akusala cetasika mana is attachment to the idea that there is a division between "self" and "world" (and where there is division, there is implicit comparison between the two). Perhaps this is where I have a problem with your "...there is 'my world', and there is 'another world' for every other sentient being (namarupic stream)...". My gut tells me that there is only one world and all sentient beings (namarupic streams) are part of it. I suspect that the notion that there are 'multiple worlds' is mana at work. But looking on the bright side, even the Sotapanna, Sakadagmi and Anagami have not managed to eliminate mana; only the Arahant can eliminate mana :-) Comments, Metta, Rob M :-) 23587 From: cetasika Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:49am Subject: Re: Right Effort Dear Robmoult Sir, Thanks a lot for devoting so much time and effort for me. (1) How is one to differentiate kusala kamma from pleasant sense pleasures,ie, mental pleasures. (2)Should one look for surroundings perceived as more compatible to his personality or try to get rid of the unpleasant sensations with equanimity, which his present circumstances are generating. (3)Is a chess lover,deeply absorbed in a chess puzzle, doing kusala kamma and, is his love for chess different from your love for teaching dhamma? Metta 23588 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:38am Subject: RobM's 24hr deadline (was Re: Right Effort) Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Without questioning what you write here, I want to share with you a few > comments from one of our recent discussions with A.Sujin on kamma, kamma > patha and vipaka while it's still fresh in my memory. This follows on from > previous discussions about kamma bringing results . > > In brief, A.Sujin stressed: > - only the 10 kamma-patha bring rebirth consciousnes and all vipaka after > rebirth. > - other kusala and akusala cittas in the javana process don't bring > results. For example now, putting sugar in the tea or gardening - of > course there are kilesa, but no results. This is significantly different from my understanding. Nyanatiloka defines kamma-patha as follows: kamma-patha: 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): - 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; - 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; - 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'. II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): - 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; - 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; - 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. Both lists occur repeatedly, e.g. in A. X, 28, 176; M. 9; they are explained in detail in M. 114, and in Com. to M. 9 (R. Und., p. 14), Atthasalini Tr. I, 126ff. My understanding of what Nyanatiloka means by "Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'" is that 'courses of action' are strong enough to condition rebirth linking consciousness whereas milder forms of mental defilement can only condition future vipaka during a course of existence (current existence or future existence). Nyanatiloka gives a number of textual reference at the end of his defintion. I suspect that one of these might shed some light on this issue. Sarah, I am away from my books right now. Could you check one or more of these references and let me know what they say? I can check more on Sunday. Does the CMA have anything to say about this (I don't have my copy with me)? Metta, Rob M :-) 23589 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:17am Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Cetasika, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "cetasika" wrote: > (1) How is one to differentiate kusala kamma from pleasant sense > pleasures,ie, mental pleasures. Good question! Each mental state (citta) is associated with unpleasant feeling, pleasant feeling or neutral feeling. Any citta associated with unpleasant feeling is always bad (akusala). Those are the easy ones to pick out. Unfortunately, pleasant feeling and neutral feeling can arise with both good and bad cittas. The way to differentiate between good and bad cittas when accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling is to observe the associated mental factors (cetasikas). Good cittas have a completely different set of associated mental factors when compared to bad cittas. Here is an extended example to illustrate six differences. Mr. A and Mr. B went to a Dhamma talk. After the Dhamma talk, Mr. A said, "I enjoyed listening to the Dhamma talk". Mr. B said, "I listened to the Dhamma talk with joy." Let us consider the difference in the mental states between Mr. A (bad, with attachment) and Mr. B (good). Tranquility =========== Mr. A remembers the amusing stories from the Dhamma talk. His pleasant feeling is mixed with excitement and agitation (uddhacca). Mr. B has a tranquil happiness. He is suffused with a warm feeling from being in the presence of something truly beautiful. Mr. B is patient to listen to the Dhamma so that he will have more understanding of his life. He has no anxieties, "Do I have enough progress in the Dhamma" because he knows it all depends on conditions. He does not forget the goal of the teachings. Agility / Lightness / Buoyancy ============================== For Mr. A, the Dhamma talk is finished; "the show is over". There are conditions for apathy, sloth and torpor. Mr. B leaves the Dhamma talk inspired to take positive action. His mind is ready to quickly seize an opportunity for kusala actions. Elasticity / Pliancy ==================== Mr. A focuses on his enjoyment of the experience. His focus in not on himself, not on the Dhamma. There is a strong sense of mana (conceit). Mr. B focuses on the application of the Dhamma. His mind is naturally spreading the Dhamma learned to aspects of his life. Adaptability / Wieldiness / Workableness ======================================== Though Mr. A enjoyed the Dhamma talk overall, his "review" would say that there were more "fun parts" (lobha) than "boring parts" (dosa). His mind classifies portions of the talk as either good or bad. He rigidly classifies portions of the talk into one of two categories thereby making his mind less workable. Mr. B leaves the talk with an even balance of muduta (pliancy); not too little so as to resist changing his mind, not too much so as to have the impressions of the Dhamma overwritten by the next sensation. Proficiency =========== Mr. A is now feeling dukkha (unsatisfactoriness). He misses the fun experience of the Dhamma talk. His mental state is "sickly". Mr. B has performed a kusala action by listening to the Dhamma talk and he is aware of this fact. This awareness gives his mental state confidence and strength. Rectitude / Uprightness ======================= Mr. A remembers who saw him attend the Dhamma talk and is pleased that he will be considered by others to be religiously minded. There is a superficial hypocrisy in his mental state. Mr. B is feeling a spontaneous love of the Dhamma. His intention / volition (cetana) is pure. As it is cetana that determines the moral quality of any action, the kammic effect of attending the Dhamma talk for Mr. B will be significantly greater than the kammic effect for Mr. A. Summary ======= In reality, we all alternate between being "Mr. A" and "Mr. B". We should strive to always be aware of our current state of mind. > (2)Should one look for surroundings perceived as more compatible to > his personality or try to get rid of the unpleasant sensations with > equanimity, which his present circumstances are generating. This is similar to the question in your previous post. Let me share with you a story. A couple of years ago, I went to the temple where I had been married more than ten years previously. While sitting quietly, I was approached by an old Thai monk who I had not met before. After exchanging pleasantries, the monk looked me in the eye and asked, "How is your meditation going?" I squirmed. The monk said, "The purpose of sitting is to sit. That is your duty. If you chase after results, you will not find them. Results come from proper practice. Just sit. Do not be concerned with progress. If the practice is right, results will come." Cetasika, I suggest that you read the Bhumija Sutta (Mn126): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn126.html Again, I have not answered your question. Getting a little Zen, you have to "unask" this question. > (3)Is a chess lover,deeply absorbed in a chess puzzle, doing kusala > kamma and, is his love for chess different from your love for > teaching dhamma? I cannot see how the chess-lover absorbed in the chess puzzle could be doing kusala. Concentration (ekagatta) is an ethically variable mental factor that can accompany both kusala and akusala. When I teach Dhamma, there is an element of compassion that I cannot see arising in the chess-lover. Cetasika, you ask very good questions. Metta, Rob M :-) 23590 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:13am Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Rob and all, Pardon me for jumping in. Skillful action, action that leads to what is profitable, with happy consequences and happy results, is not necessarily pleasant to do. Unskillful action, action that leads to what is unprofitable, with painful consequences and painful results, is not necessarily unpleasant to do. In other words, skillful action can be either pleasant or unpleasant to do. Likewise for unskillful action. Any action that is unpleasant to do is not necessarily unskillful. Perhaps what is important is not so much to differentiate skillful actions from pleasant feelings but to discern skillful actions from unskillful one, to know the wholesome as wholesome, the unwholesome as unwholesome. Peace, Victor Reference: Anguttara Nikaya IV.115 Thana Sutta Courses of Action http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-115.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Cetasika, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "cetasika" > wrote: > > (1) How is one to differentiate kusala kamma from pleasant sense > > pleasures,ie, mental pleasures. > > Good question! > > Each mental state (citta) is associated with unpleasant feeling, > pleasant feeling or neutral feeling. Any citta associated with > unpleasant feeling is always bad (akusala). Those are the easy ones > to pick out. Unfortunately, pleasant feeling and neutral feeling can > arise with both good and bad cittas. > > The way to differentiate between good and bad cittas when > accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling is to observe the > associated mental factors (cetasikas). Good cittas have a completely > different set of associated mental factors when compared to bad > cittas. [snip] > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 23591 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] more on piti Dear Larry, op 21-07-2003 00:15 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > It makes sense to me that the concentration that is the proximate cause > of insight is the same concentration that has piti as proximate cause, > in other words the concentration of jhana. We can wait and see if > Buddhaghosa has a clarifying remark but I'm not aware of two different > concentrations. Do you have something else in mind as a proximate cause > to the concentration that is the proximate cause of insight? N: I see two different concentrations of jhåna and of insight. The objects and the aims are different. >L:I have a few more thoughts on this. It seems that a proximate cause is a > citta or cetasika that immediately precedes another citta or cetaska in > a process and a proximate cause is not necessarily a sufficient cause. > In other words, concentration may not necessarily be followed by insight > but if there is insight, it was preceded by concentration. N: I see proximate cause as occurring also simultaneously with the dhamma it is proximate cause of. We can see this when looking at different definitions of dhammas. I think at the moment of right understanding of a nama or rupa there is also right concentration, right effort, etc. each performing their functions. For someone who also practises jhana and makes it the base for insight, concentration is the proximate cause for insight. We can see this concentration as calm, a high degree of calm. He must develop insight in order to understand jhana as non-self. For someone who does not practise jhana, there is also right concentration which is the proximate cause for insight. But this does not mean that he has to try and concentrate on nama and rupa. Satipatthana is not concentration. Nina. 23592 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 0:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha Hello Bhante, Howard, and all, Howard: "Assuming this belief as fact, what does it matter if a woman has to pay the price of accepting rebirth in an inferior physical vehicle in her final lifetime in order to become a Buddha? ;-)" Christine: [You make me smile Howard, reframing certainly lifts the spirit and gives new perspectives :-) ]. You may be interested in this review of the book 'Innovative Buddhist Women - Swimming against the Stream', (2000), Karma Lekshe Tsomo (Ed), Curzon Press, Richmond, UK. Paperback. Reviewed by Y.K. Yau http://home.iprimus.com.au/zordon/Publication_Articles/Book% 20review.htm "In her paper ` Inaccuracies in Buddhist Women's History', Bhikkuni Kusuma turns an age-old misreading of the dual ordination of women in the Buddhist canon on its head. Bhikkuni Kusuma, a Pali scholar who received a Ph.D for her research on Bhikkuni Vinaya (Buddhist Nun monastic discipline) could find no canonical evidence to suggest that a nun's ordination is only valid if it is witnessed by both orders, the order of monks and the order of nuns. The truth is that it will suffice for the order of monks to ordain a nun. Neither could Bhikkuni Kusuma find any evidence to suggest that the lifespan of the Buddha's dispensation will be shortened on account of women's admission to the order. In fact, she found evidence to the contrary in the Commentary of Buddhaghosa, a 5th century Buddhist monk. She also argues that the eight special rules (garudhammas) that Mahapajapati Gotami had accepted on her own behalf to gain admission to the order did not apply to other nuns. This is because the Buddha had ordained his own aunt and stepmother when she was just a laywoman. It was a quirk of history that caused controversy to rage for 10 centuries. If the eight special rules were to apply to other nuns, it would have meant nuns' subservience (not deference), to monks. And that would be very contrary to the Buddha's egalitarianism." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Bhante (and Christine) - > > In a message dated 7/22/03 11:51:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > sanz@n... writes: > > > Deare Christine, it may be very sad, but last week I attended a funeral of > > a > > theravatan monk and during one of the dhamma talks a very senior theravatan > > monk ( the most senior Laotian monk in Australia, from Brisbane) mention > > that women do not reach nirvana, that they have two ways to go to nirvana, > > one is if they are reborn as MAN or if one of their children becomes a monk. > > > > So with this way of thinking, what change do women have to become monks. > > Metta. Ajahn Jose > > > > >Hello Robert, > > > > > >Your post made me sad, using such an extreme example which can't be > > >verified, and which doesn't actually seem to relate to the Bhikkhuni > > >Sangha instituted by the Buddha. (In any case, my understanding is > > >that there were fake monks freeloading on the system - not monks of > > >other traditions). The Mahayana Bhikkunis lineage was transplanted > > >from Theravada, and is recognised as having been continuously kept > > >and true to the Bhikkhuni Vinaya. Why else do you think the senior > > >Bhikkhus in Sri Lanka agreed to be part of the ceremony? Were they > > >not "encouraging respect for the Vinaya (of which ordination > > >procedures are a part)" or were they "making efforts to bypass it."? > > > > > > > > >metta and peace, > > >Christine > > > ================================== > I found the following at http://www.uq.net.au /slsoc/bsq/bsqtr07.htm > > ****************************** > The accomplishment of these Theris of old is that they gave living proof of > the Buddha's utterance (Sam.Nik, 1, 5, 6): > > yassa etâdisa.m yâna.m > ittiyâ purisassa va > sa ve etena yânena > nibbanasseva santike ti This is the only vehicle > Be it a woman or be it a man > The one who takes this vehicle > Can reach the peace of Nibbâna > > where the chariot referred to is the Buddha-Dhamma. > ********************************** > > My understanding is that there is completely accepted within Theravada > the existence of women arahants. > What I *have* heard is that Theravada expresses the belief that with > regard to the lifetime that one becomes a Buddha, not a circumstance with which > many of us need personally concern ourselves, the being will be born as a > male. Assuming this belief as fact, what does it matter if a woman has to pay the > price of accepting rebirth in an inferior physical vehicle in her final > lifetime in order to become a Buddha? ;-) [More seriously, this restriction on the > sex of a Buddha may or may not be a reality, and it may or may not reflect a > male chauvinism. But it strikes me as a relatively unimportant issue, in any > case. We all have been males at times and females at times over many, many > lives. And I'm not anticipating becoming an arahant any time soon, let alone a > Buddha.] > > With metta, > Howard > 23593 From: connie Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 0:52pm Subject: Re: Perfections. Epilogue 1. Nina, Kom, Sarah and All ~ Yes, thank you for the series on the Perfections. On the Defilements of the Perfections, for those who have more discriminating tastes and would prefer not to read an excerpt from the Lotus Sutra, please skip the rest of this post. To the rest, I apologize for the length but I really like this and and had a hard time deciding where to draw the line. Maybe the hikers will appreciate it next time they find themselves standing in a dharma rain. peace, connie This beneficent cloud is laden with moisture, the lightening gleams and flashes, and the sound of thunder reverberates afar, causing the multitude to rejoice. The sun's rays are veiled and hidden, a clear coolness comes over the land; masses of darkness descend and spread- you can almost touch them. The rain falls everywhere, coming down on all four sides, its flow and saturation are measureless, reaching to every area of the earth, to the ravines and valleys of the mountains and streams, to the remote and secluded places where grow plants, bushes, medicinal herbs, trees large and small, a hundred grains, rice seedlings, sugar cane, grape vines. The rain moistens them all, none fails to receive its full share, the parched ground is everywhere watered, herbs and trees alike grow lush. What falls from the cloud is water of a single flavor, but the plants and trees, thickets and groves, each accept the moisture that is appropriate to its portion. All the various trees, whether superior, middling or inferior, take what is fitting for large or small and each is enabled to sprout and grow. Root, stem, limb, leaf, the glow and hue of flower and fruit- one rain extends to them and all are able to become fresh and glossy, whether their allotment of substance, form and nature is large or small, the moistening they receive is one, but each grows and flourishes in its own way. The Buddha is like this when he appears in the world, comparable to a great cloud that covers all things everywhere, Having appeared in the world, for the sake of living beings he makes distinctions in expounding the truth regarding phenomena. The great sage, the World-Honored One, to heavenly and human beings, in the midst of all beings, pronounces these words: I am the Thus Come One, most honored of two-legged beings. I appear in the world like a great cloud that showers moisture upon all the dry and withered living beings, so that all are able to escape suffering, gain the joy of peace and security, the joys of this world and the joy of nirvana. All you heavenly and human beings of this assembly, listen carefully and with one mind! All of you should gather around and observe the one of unexcelled honor. I am the World-Honored One, none can rival me. In order to bring peace and security to living beings I have appeared it the world and for the sake of this great assembly I preach the sweet dew of the pure Law. This Law is of a single flavor, that of emancipation, nirvana. With a single wonderful sound I expound and unfold its meaning; constantly for the sake of the Great Vehicle I create causes and conditions. I look upon all things as being universally equal, I have no mind to favor this or that, to love one or hate another. I am without greed or attachment and without limitation or hindrance. At all times, for all things I preach the Law equally; as I would for a single person, that same way I do for numerous persons, constantly I expound and preach the Law, never have I done anything else, coming, going, sitting, standing, never to the end growing weary or disheartened. I bring fullness and satisfaction to the world, like rain that spreads its moisture everywhere, Eminent and lowly, superior and inferior, observers of precepts, violators of precepts, those fully endowed with proper demeanor, those not fully endowed, those of correct views, of erroneous views, of keen capacity, of dull capacity- I cause the Dharma rain on all equally, never lax or neglectful. When all the various living beings hear my Law, they receive it according to their power, dwelling in their different environments. 23594 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:30pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Pardon me for jumping in. > > Skillful action, action that leads to what is profitable, with happy > consequences and happy results, is not necessarily pleasant to do. > Unskillful action, action that leads to what is unprofitable, with > painful consequences and painful results, is not necessarily > unpleasant to do. > > In other words, skillful action can be either pleasant or unpleasant > to do. Likewise for unskillful action. > > Any action that is unpleasant to do is not necessarily unskillful. > > Perhaps what is important is not so much to differentiate skillful > actions from pleasant feelings but to discern skillful actions from > unskillful one, to know the wholesome as wholesome, the unwholesome > as unwholesome. > > Reference: > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.115 > Thana Sutta > Courses of Action > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-115.html Victor, thank you so much. I owe you big time for this. As I started to read your message, the following thoughts occured in my mind, "How can Victor say that? Victor must know that the only cittas associated with unpleasant feeling are akusala (rooted in aversion)." In my mind, I started to craft a polite but firm reply saying, "No, you're wrong!" Victor, that is when I noticed that you had included a link to a Sutta (one that I had not read before). I read the Sutta slowly (I always read Suttas slowly). I then understood that you were talking about "unpleasant courses of action" whereas I was talking about "mental states associated with unpleasant feeling". One might say that I was looking at the "micro" view while you were looking at the "macro" view. I then asked myself, "Given the question asked by Cetasika, would it be more appropriate to focus on macro issues or micro issues?" I realized that I should present a balance of both to avoid confusion. Victor, I learned the following from this: 1. I am sometimes too quick to judge 2. I am sometimes unbalanced in my answers (micro vs. macro) Victor, thank you for teaching me two very valuable lessons. I suspect that I will fall into similar traps in the future as accumulations run deep. At least now, I can "post a sentinel" to try and recognize these types of unskillful actions as they arise. Cetasika, if this exchange with my friend Victor has confused you, please let me know and I will explain how we are both correct. Metta, Rob M :-) 23595 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:18pm Subject: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Sarah, Thank you for your comments. I would like to correct myself that instead of saying "It is what/whom one desires for makes the difference" I should say "It is what one desires for makes the difference." Desire in and of itself, like intent, is neutral in terms of wholesome/skillful and unwholesome/unskillful. Any desire and passion with regard to the senses, the aggregates, and the properties/dhatu is a defilement of mind.* That kind of desire is certainly different from the desire connected with right effort mentioned in the following: "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." ** Both kinds of desire are to be abandoned. Desire and passion with regard to the senses, the aggregates, and the properties/dhatu is to be abandoned with right effort. Desire, persistence, and intent connected with right effort, the noble eightfold path, for the cessation of dukkha, the attainment of arahantship is abandoned once effluents are ended, defilements are eradicated, the cessation of dukkha is realized.*** Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor References: *. Samyutta Nikaya XXVII, Upakkilesa Samyutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn27.html **. Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8, Magga-vibhanga Sutta, An Analysis of the Path http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-008.html ***. Samyutta Nikaya LI.15, Brahmana Sutta, To Unnabha the Brahman http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn51-015.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Sorry, for this delay. You've been making some helpful comments. > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Thank you for your reply and references. I appreciate it. > > > > Desire itself can be quite neutral in terms of being > > skillful/wholesome or unskillful/unwholesome. It is what/whom one > > desires for makes the difference. > ..... > I'm not sure I quite follow you here. Are you saying that if the object of > consciousness is say, the Buddha, that the `desire' must be wholesome? > Does it mean there cannot be any attachment when one thinks about the > Buddha or pays respect in a temple, for example? > ..... > >Thus the word "desire" needs to > > be understood in its proper context. Pali words "chanda" > > and "iccha" can be translated as "desire". However, each Pali > > original has it's own connotation. > ..... > I complete agree with you here. The context has to be understood, > especially if we're just relying on a translation using the word `desire'. > Perhaps this was your point above. > > Often, the distinction is clear-cut. In our daily life, I don't think it's > so simple as to say that the `desire, motivation, and aspiration to > develop wholesome qualities' must be wholesome. I liked (yet another) > pithy paragraph of Ken H's (to Howard): > ***** > "What is essential is an appreciation of the benefits of calm, equanimity, > detachment and other kusala states. > > This is different from wanting those states to arise. > When there is wanting, there is no calm, equanimity or detachment - - quite > the reverse." > ***** > > Thank you again for your reply. Your comments are appreciated. > ..... > Likewise, Victor. > > Metta, > > Sarah 23596 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha --Venerable: last week I attended a funeral of a >>theravatan monk and during one of the dhamma talks a very senior theravatan monk ( the most senior Laotian monk in Australia, from Brisbane) >mention that women do not reach nirvana, that they have two ways to go to nirvana, >>one is if they are reborn as MAN or if one of their children becomes a monk. >>So with this way of thinking, what change do women have to become monks. Metta. Ajahn Jose -______________ Dear Venerable Ajahn Jose, With all due respect to the venerable bhikkhu I believe this is not correct. A whole book of the Tipitaka (as howard mentions) is the therigatha which is about arahant woman. The commentaries also talk about kotis (thousands) of woman attaining all stages of enlightenment. __________________________________________________ CHristine: You may be interested in this review of the >book 'Innovative Buddhist Women - Swimming against the Stream', (2000), Karma Lekshe Tsomo (Ed), Curzon Press, Richmond, UK. Paperback. >>Reviewed by Y.K. Yau >>http://home.iprimus.com.au/zordon/Publication_Articles/Book% 20review.htm >>"In her paper ` Inaccuracies in Buddhist Women's History', Bhikkuni >>Kusuma turns an age-old misreading of the dual ordination of women in the Buddhist canon on its head. Bhikkuni >>Kusuma, a Pali scholar who received a Ph.D for her research on Bhikkuni Vinaya (Buddhist Nun monastic discipline) could find no >>canonical evidence to suggest that a nun's ordination is only valid if it is witnessed by both orders, the order of monks and >>the order of nuns. The truth is that it will suffice for the order of monks to ordain a nun. >>Neither could Bhikkuni Kusuma find any evidence to suggest that the lifespan of the Buddha's dispensation will be shortened >>on account of women's admission to the order. In fact, she found evidence to the contrary in the Commentary of Buddhaghosa, a 5th >>century Buddhist monk. She also argues that the eight special rules (garudhammas) that Mahapajapati Gotami had accepted on her own behalf >>to gain admission to the order did not apply to other nuns. This is because the Buddha had ordained his own aunt and stepmother when she was just a laywoman. >>It was a quirk of history that caused controversy to >>rage for 10 centuries. If the eight special rules were to apply to other nuns, it would have meant nuns' subservience (not deference), to monks. And that would be very contrary to the Buddha's >>egalitarianism." metta and peace, Christine __________________ This sutta is in the Anguttara Nikàya. Note that Mahapajapati was given higher ordination directly by the Buddha there and then, and that the sutta also mentions those (other woman) who will be preparing for higher ordination: "A trainee bhikkhuni should spend two rains observing the six precepts and be accomplished for the higher ordination, in the presence of both Communities, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis." Gotamãvaggo- Gotamisuttaü- To Gotàmi. """Ananda, if Mahapajapati Gotami accepts these eight strong rules, that will be her higher ordination: ßA bhikkhuni with one hundred rains should worship, attend willingly, revere with clasped hands and exchange friendly greetings with a bhikkhu who has just attained higher ordination. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A bhikkhuni should not observe the rains in a monastery where there are no bhikkhus. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. Every fortnight the bhikkhuni should approach the Community of bhikkhus to beg for two things. To know the day of recital of the full moon observances for confession and for advice. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A bhikkhuni should emerge from the rains observances, by seeing or hearing or clearing suspicions in the presence of both Communities, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A bhikkhuni guilty of transgressing the strong rules should atone it, in the presence of both Communities, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A trainee bhikkhuni should spend two rains observing the six precepts and be accomplished for the higher ordination, in the presence of both Communities, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A bhikkhuni should not abuse a bhikkhu for any reason. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. From today the words of the bhikkhunis are obstructed to the bhikkhus. The words of the bhikkhus are not obstructed to the bhikkhunis This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. Ananda, if Mahapajapati Gotami accepts these eight strong rules, that will be her higher ordination:" Venerable Ananda, learning these eight strong rules in the presence of The Blessed One approached Mahapajapati Gotami and said: ßGotami, if you accept these eight strong rules, that will be your higher ordination: ßA bhikkhuni with one hundred rains should worship, attend willingly, revere with clasped hands and exchange friendly greetings with a bhikkhu who has just attained higher ordination. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A bhikkhuni should not observe the rains in a monastery where there are no bhikkhus. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. Every fortnight the bhikkhuni should approach the Community of bhikkhus to beg for two things. To know the day of recital of the full moon observances for confession and for advice. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A bhikkhuni should emerge from the rains observances, by seeing or hearing or clearing suspicions in the presence of both Communities, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A bhikkhuni guilty of transgressing the strong rules should atone it, in the presence of both Communities, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A trainee bhikkhuni should spend two rains observing the six precepts and be accomplished for the higher ordination, in the presence of both Communities, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A bhikkhuni should not abuse a bhikkhu for any reason. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. From today the words of the bhikkhunis are obstructed to the bhikkhus. The words of the bhikkhus are not obstructed to the bhikkhunis This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. Gotami if you accept these eight strong rules, that same will be your higher ordination:" ß Venerable sir, Ananda, just as a young man, woman, or child who has washed his head was to receive a garland of flowers of blue lotuses, jasmines or a very attractive garland of flowers would accept it, with both hands and would place it on his head. In that same manner I accept the eight strong rules, not to throw out until life lasts. Then venerable Ananda approached The Blessed One, worshipped, sat on a side and said: Venerable sir, Mahapajapati Gotami has accepted the eight strong rules, not to throw out until life lasts." ßAnanda, if women did not obtain the going forth from the household as homeless, in the dispensation of the Thus Gone One, the dispensation would have lasted longer a thousand years Ananda, as women have obtined the going forth from the household to become homeless, it will not last long, the good Teaching will last only five hundred years Ananda, just as families which have more women and few men are attacked by robbers and cheaters in the same manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for women, the holy life does not last long Ananda, just as in an accomplished rice field, there falls an illness named white seeds and it does not last long. In the same manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for women, the holy life does not last long. Ananda, just as in an accomplished cane field, there comes an illness named turning red and it does not last long. In the same manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for women, the holy life does not last long. Ananda, just as a man was to build an embankment as a future protection for a huge reservoir, so that water would not reach over the boundary these eight strong rules are declared to the bhikkhunis not to be thrown out until life lasts, as future protection."" ___http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/006-gotamivaggo-e.htm robertK_______ 23597 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:53pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 1 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 1. Now concentration was described under the heading of "Consciousness" in the stanza. 'When a wise man, established well in Virtue, develops Consciousness and understanding'. And that has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits. But "Understanding" comes next. And that has yet to be developed. Now that is not easy, firstly even to know about, let alone to develop, when it is taught very briefly. In order, therefore, to deal with the detailed method of its development there is the following set of questions: (i) What is understanding? (ii) In what sense is it understanding? (iii) What are its characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause? (iv) How many kinds of understanding are there? (v) How is it developed? (vi) What are the benefits of developing understanding? 23598 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 0:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Hi, Rob - In a message dated 7/23/03 10:59:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Rob, you write "There is no 'self' with 'objective > observer' status. > >The stream of nama-rupa called 'Rob' is not separate from 'the > world', rather > >it is part of 'the world'; subject to the same set of rules." I > agree with you > >on this, Rob. Moreover, from my phenomenalist perspective, matters > are even > >more complex. As much as "I" am part of "the world", and impact > it, "the world" > >is part of "me". There is "my world", and there is "another world" > for every > >other sentient being (namarupic stream), and these all interact > and > >interpenetrate like mirrors placed at the interstices of Indra's > net, each reflecting all > >the others - reflections within reflections within reflections ... > ad > >infinitum. Where is there a stand for an "objective observer"? > Where is there a place > >to stand? There is none, neither within the whole nor without. > When the "I" > >slips away, it is like the world slipping away from under one's > feet. No > >anchor. No foothold. No place to stand. The full realization > of "no place to stand" > >and letting go of the "need" for such a place is, perhaps, what > liberation is > >about. > > > > The akusala cetasika mana is attachment to the idea that there is a > division between "self" and "world" (and where there is division, > there is implicit comparison between the two). Perhaps this is where > I have a problem with your "...there is 'my world', and there > is 'another world' for every other sentient being (namarupic > stream)...". My gut tells me that there is only one world and all > sentient beings (namarupic streams) are part of it. I suspect that > the notion that there are 'multiple worlds' is mana at work. > > But looking on the bright side, even the Sotapanna, Sakadagmi and > Anagami have not managed to eliminate mana; only the Arahant can > eliminate mana :-) > > Comments, > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ============================ When you write "The akusala cetasika mana is attachment to the idea that there is a division between 'self' and 'world' (and where there is division, there is implicit comparison between the two)," I agree with you ... sort of. First of all, I don't accept the existence of selves. But it is clear that there are different namarupic streams, to the extent that there are any at all. What "you" and "I" experience is not identical. These namarupic streams are not identical, but they are interdependent. I do agree that there is one "reality", but within that is the network of all these interrelated namarupic streams. Also, while I do accept that there is no "division" between knowing and the known, if by "division" one means separateness and independence, I do not accept that knowing and known are identical. Subject and object are interdependent, thus not separable, but they are distinguishable. Likewise, namarupic streams ("worlds") are interdependent, thus not separable, but still distinguishable. To clarify this point further, what did the Buddha say is "the world"? The Buddha said "I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos [BTW, in other formulations I've seen 'world' used here instead of 'cosmos'] where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos." I take this to mean that the world is not other than this mind and body (namarupa). Elsewhere he said "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." I take this to be saying pretty much the same thing as the previous quotation. In each case, "the world" comes down to being the five khandhas. But "my" five khandhas are not "your" five khandhas, and there is a different set of five khandhas for every sentient being. They interact, but are not identical. To me, from my phenomenalist perspective, taking "the world" to be a unique, objective thing "out there " which different "persons" observe differently is closer to mana than a position that considers "a world" to be a particular experiential flow. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23599 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Hi all, Would someone like to say a few words on this sentence: "And that [consciousness] has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits." Larry 23600 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections. Epilogue 1. I > apologize for the length but I really like this and > and had a hard time > deciding where to draw the line. Hello Connie. An excelent excerpt of the Saddharma Pundarika Sutta (Lotus Sutra)! I am a beginner in this group, but I´ve found some discussions of Abhidhamma´s Citta and Cetasikas very illuminating indeed. And your quote of the Lotus Sutra is really refreshing after such hard climb reasoning! There´s a lot goin´ on!!! Metta, Ícarvs Maybe the hikers > will appreciate it > next time they find themselves standing in a dharma > rain. > peace, > connie > > This beneficent cloud is laden with moisture, > the lightening gleams and flashes, > and the sound of thunder reverberates afar, > causing the multitude to rejoice. > The sun's rays are veiled and hidden, > a clear coolness comes over the land; > masses of darkness descend and spread- > you can almost touch them. > The rain falls everywhere, > coming down on all four sides, > its flow and saturation are measureless, > reaching to every area of the earth, > to the ravines and valleys of the mountains and > streams, > to the remote and secluded places where grow > plants, bushes, medicinal herbs, > trees large and small, > a hundred grains, rice seedlings, > sugar cane, grape vines. > The rain moistens them all, > none fails to receive its full share, > the parched ground is everywhere watered, > herbs and trees alike grow lush. > What falls from the cloud > is water of a single flavor, > but the plants and trees, thickets and groves, > each accept the moisture that is appropriate to its > portion. > All the various trees, > whether superior, middling or inferior, > take what is fitting for large or small > and each is enabled to sprout and grow. > Root, stem, limb, leaf, > the glow and hue of flower and fruit- > one rain extends to them > and all are able to become fresh and glossy, > whether their allotment > of substance, form and nature is large or small, > the moistening they receive is one, > but each grows and flourishes in its own way. > The Buddha is like this > when he appears in the world, > comparable to a great cloud > that covers all things everywhere, > Having appeared in the world, > for the sake of living beings > he makes distinctions in expounding > the truth regarding phenomena. > The great sage, the World-Honored One, > to heavenly and human beings, > in the midst of all beings, > pronounces these words: > I am the Thus Come One, > most honored of two-legged beings. > I appear in the world > like a great cloud > that showers moisture upon > all the dry and withered living beings, > so that all are able to escape suffering, > gain the joy of peace and security, > the joys of this world > and the joy of nirvana. > All you heavenly and human beings of this assembly, > listen carefully and with one mind! > All of you should gather around > and observe the one of unexcelled honor. > I am the World-Honored One, > none can rival me. > In order to bring peace and security to living > beings > I have appeared it the world > and for the sake of this great assembly > I preach the sweet dew of the pure Law. > This Law is of a single flavor, > that of emancipation, nirvana. > With a single wonderful sound > I expound and unfold its meaning; > constantly for the sake of the Great Vehicle > I create causes and conditions. > I look upon all things > as being universally equal, > I have no mind to favor this or that, > to love one or hate another. > I am without greed or attachment > and without limitation or hindrance. > At all times, for all things > I preach the Law equally; > as I would for a single person, > that same way I do for numerous persons, > constantly I expound and preach the Law, > never have I done anything else, > coming, going, sitting, standing, > never to the end growing weary or disheartened. > I bring fullness and satisfaction to the world, > like rain that spreads its moisture everywhere, > Eminent and lowly, superior and inferior, > observers of precepts, violators of precepts, > those fully endowed with proper demeanor, > those not fully endowed, > those of correct views, of erroneous views, > of keen capacity, of dull capacity- > I cause the Dharma rain on all equally, > never lax or neglectful. > When all the various living beings > hear my Law, > they receive it according to their power, > dwelling in their different environments. > ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23601 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 0:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha Hi, Christine - In a message dated 7/23/03 3:36:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > You may be interested in this review of the book 'Innovative Buddhist > Women - Swimming against the Stream', (2000), Karma Lekshe Tsomo > (Ed), Curzon Press, Richmond, UK. Paperback. > Reviewed by Y.K. Yau > http://home.iprimus.com.au/zordon/Publication_Articles/Book% > 20review.htm > > "In her paper ` Inaccuracies in Buddhist Women's History', Bhikkuni > Kusuma turns an age-old misreading of the dual > ordination of women in the Buddhist canon on its head. Bhikkuni > Kusuma, a Pali scholar who received a Ph.D for her research > on Bhikkuni Vinaya (Buddhist Nun monastic discipline) could find no > canonical evidence to suggest that a nun's ordination is > only valid if it is witnessed by both orders, the order of monks and > the order of nuns. The truth is that it will suffice for the > order of monks to ordain a nun. > > > Neither could Bhikkuni Kusuma find any evidence to suggest that the > lifespan of the Buddha's dispensation will be shortened > on account of women's admission to the order. In fact, she found > evidence to the contrary in the Commentary of Buddhaghosa, a 5th > century Buddhist monk. She also argues that the eight special rules > (garudhammas) that Mahapajapati Gotami had accepted on her own behalf > to gain admission to the order did not apply to other nuns. This is > because the Buddha had > ordained his own aunt and stepmother when she was just a laywoman. It > was a quirk of history that caused controversy to > rage for 10 centuries. If the eight special rules were to apply to > other nuns, it would have meant nuns' subservience (not deference), > to monks. And that would be very contrary to the Buddha's > egalitarianism." > > metta and peace, > Christine > ================================ Hmm! Very interesting. I look forward to reading the review (and perhaps the book). Thank you. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23602 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] more on piti Nina: "For someone who does not practise jhana, there is also right concentration which is the proximate cause for insight. But this does not mean that he has to try and concentrate on nama and rupa. Satipatthana is not concentration." Hi Nina, I agree jhana and satipatthana are not the same thing but I would say jhana is a bundle of factors that include concentration and tranquility as foremost. I believe concentration is synonymous with one-pointedness (ekaggata cetasika), but as it is used here as proximate cause to understanding (panna) it means not wandering. In other words, not reacting but simply observing. What would you suggest as a proximate cause for this? Do you consider this proximate cause to be "born of seclusion from the hindrances" as piti is? Larry 23603 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Effort Hi, Rob (and Victor) - Please let me know if I am understanding you two correctly. I believe that you are saying that while engaged in a (possibly extended) action that is wholesome and useful and well motivated etc etc, there may occur many moments of felt unpleasantness (such as occur along with boredom, resistence [a form of aversion], and fatigue), such moments being akusala, yet the action as a whole is still a skillful one. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/23/03 5:32:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Victor, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > >Pardon me for jumping in. > > > >Skillful action, action that leads to what is profitable, with > happy > >consequences and happy results, is not necessarily pleasant to > do. > >Unskillful action, action that leads to what is unprofitable, with > >painful consequences and painful results, is not necessarily > >unpleasant to do. > > > >In other words, skillful action can be either pleasant or > unpleasant > >to do. Likewise for unskillful action. > > > >Any action that is unpleasant to do is not necessarily unskillful. > > > >Perhaps what is important is not so much to differentiate skillful > >actions from pleasant feelings but to discern skillful actions > from > >unskillful one, to know the wholesome as wholesome, the > unwholesome > >as unwholesome. > > > >Reference: > > > >Anguttara Nikaya IV.115 > >Thana Sutta > >Courses of Action > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-115.html > > Victor, thank you so much. I owe you big time for this. > > As I started to read your message, the following thoughts occured in > my mind, "How can Victor say that? Victor must know that the only > cittas associated with unpleasant feeling are akusala (rooted in > aversion)." > > In my mind, I started to craft a polite but firm reply saying, "No, > you're wrong!" > > Victor, that is when I noticed that you had included a link to a > Sutta (one that I had not read before). > > I read the Sutta slowly (I always read Suttas slowly). I then > understood that you were talking about "unpleasant courses of > action" whereas I was talking about "mental states associated with > unpleasant feeling". One might say that I was looking at the "micro" > view while you were looking at the "macro" view. > > I then asked myself, "Given the question asked by Cetasika, would it > be more appropriate to focus on macro issues or micro issues?" I > realized that I should present a balance of both to avoid confusion. > > Victor, I learned the following from this: > 1. I am sometimes too quick to judge > 2. I am sometimes unbalanced in my answers (micro vs. macro) > > Victor, thank you for teaching me two very valuable lessons. I > suspect that I will fall into similar traps in the future as > accumulations run deep. At least now, I can "post a sentinel" to try > and recognize these types of unskillful actions as they arise. > > Cetasika, if this exchange with my friend Victor has confused you, > please let me know and I will explain how we are both correct. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23604 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object condition Rob: "Once you hit the fifth jhana, the object is fixed. The object of the first level of arupavacara jhana is "infinite space" (plane 28). The object of the second level of arupavacara is "infinte consciousness" (plane 29). The object of the third level of arupavacara is "nothingness" (plane 30) and the object of the fourth level of arupavacara is "neither perception nor non-perception" (plane 31)." Hi Rob, These four objects are concepts, but they are also consciousnesses (experiences); or would you characterize the experience as a mode of tranquility that the concepts point to? You gave me rather more than I could digest concerning Path Condition. Could you decifer the abbreviations and give a very short explanation of the Conditioning States and Conditioned states for Path Condition in the table on p. 311, CMA? Maybe this weekend. No rush. Larry 23605 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Right Effort Hi Howard, Let me give an example to illustrate. Imagine that I am considering becoming a monk. I know that monks have to eat whatever food is given to them (Vinaya rules do not allow monks to choose their own food). Now I am a picky eater; I don't like seafood and I don't like spicy food. I am afraid that life as a monk might be quite unpleasant at times because I will be forced to eat food that I do not like (when somebody gives it to me). I know that becoming a monk is profitable; but I also know that it would be an unpleasant course of action (at times). According to the wonderful Sutta referenced by Victor, if I allow the knowledge that life as a monk is (at times) an unpleasant course of action to stop me from becoming a monk (which is profitable), then I am a fool. As you can see, this Sutta and the wisdom it contains operates at a completely different level ("macro") than the citta / cetasika level ("micro") that I was talking about. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob (and Victor) - > > Please let me know if I am understanding you two correctly. I believe > that you are saying that while engaged in a (possibly extended) action that is > wholesome and useful and well motivated etc etc, there may occur many moments > of felt unpleasantness (such as occur along with boredom, resistence [a form > of aversion], and fatigue), such moments being akusala, yet the action as a > whole is still a skillful one. > > With metta, > Howard > 23606 From: Dr Jose M Sanz-Tonnelier Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:38pm Subject: Re: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha Dear Friends, it is very easy to speack between us here and make comments and suggestions. When we monks are together, there is no way that a junior monk like me could question or correct a monk of 50 years. I will be told to be quiet and learnt from the senior monk. Ven. Ajahn Jose > --Venerable: last week I attended a funeral of a >>>theravatan monk and during one of the dhamma talks a very senior > theravatan > monk ( the most senior Laotian monk in Australia, from Brisbane) >>mention > that women do not reach nirvana, that they have two ways to go to > nirvana, >>>one is if they are reborn as MAN or if one of their children > becomes a monk. >>>So with this way of thinking, what change do women have to become > monks. > Metta. Ajahn Jose > -______________ > Dear Venerable Ajahn Jose, > With all due respect to the venerable bhikkhu I believe this is not > correct. A whole book of the Tipitaka (as howard mentions) is the > therigatha which is about arahant woman. The commentaries also talk > about kotis (thousands) of woman attaining all stages of > enlightenment. > > __________________________________________________ 23607 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: object condition Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "Once you hit the fifth jhana, the object is fixed. The object of > the first level of arupavacara jhana is "infinite space" (plane 28). The > object of the second level of arupavacara is "infinte consciousness" > (plane 29). The object of the third level of arupavacara is > "nothingness" (plane 30) and the object of the fourth level of > arupavacara is "neither perception nor non-perception" (plane 31)." > > Hi Rob, > > These four objects are concepts, but they are also consciousnesses > (experiences); or would you characterize the experience as a mode of > tranquility that the concepts point to? ===== "Infinite space" is a concept, it is the object of the first level of arupavacara citta. I am not sure what you mean by "they are also consciousnesses (experiences)". I am also not clear on what you mean by "characterize the experience as a mode of tranquility that the concepts point to". As one progresses through the first four jhanic states, one increasingly "refines the experience" by eliminating initial application (vitaka), sustained application (vicara), rapture (piti) and hapiness (sukha) - replaced by equanimity. Whereas the cetasikas associated with the rupavacara cittas change depending on the level, the cetasikas associated with the arupavacara cittas are all the same; they don't change as one progresses along the stages - the only thing that changes is the object of meditation. Here is a more complete description of the process taken from "Abhidhamma - Ultimate Science" by Dr. Mehm Tim Mon: The person who has developed the five rupa-jhanas may go up the ladder of concentration to arupa-jhanas. In doing so he uses the concentration associated with fifth rupa-jhana as his base. Also he has to reason about the unsatisfactoriness of the physical body and the troubles it develops on account of heat and cold, insect-bites, hunger and thirst, diseases, old age and death. When he feels detached from the physical body and rupa, he first develops the fifth jhana by meditating on the patibhaga-nimitta of pathava- kasina. He then comes out from the fifth jhana and, though the patibhaga-nimitta exists in his vision, he neglects it and tries to concentrate on the infinite space (akasa) beyond it and meditates "akasa, akasa" repeatedly. When his mild attachment (nikanti) for the patibhaga-nimitta disappears, the nimitta also suddenly disappears unfolding endless space. Concentrating his mindfulness on this endless space, he goes on meditating "akasa, akasa" till he reaches the first arupajhana. The jhana is called akasanancayatana kusala citta because it focuses on akasa. He then continues his meditation by concentrating his mindfulness on the akasanancayatana kusala citta; meditating `vittana, vittana' repeatedly till he reaches the second arupa-jhana. This jhana is called vinnanancayatana kusala citta. To develop the third arupa-jhana he focuses his attention not on the akasanancayatana kusala citta but on nothingness, meditating "Nathi Kitci" (there is nothing whatsoever) repeatedly till he reaches the jhana. This jhana is called akitcannayatana kusala citta – `akincanna' also means `nothingness'. By taking the third arupa-jhana consciousness as the object of meditation, he can further develop the fourth arupa- jhana. This jhana is called nevasanna-nasannayatana kusala citta. Nevasannanasannayatana literally means that "perception neither exists nor does not exist". It refers to the fact that the fourth arupa-jhana consciousness is so subtle and refined that one cannot definitely say whether there is a consciousness or not. Consciousness is no longer noticeable the state of this jhana. All the four arupa-jhana belong to the category of the fifth jhana because they are based on the fifth rupa-jhana. They all have only two jhana-factors, namely upekkha and ekaggata. It should be noted that the five rupa-jhanas differ from one another in the number of jhana-factors whereas the four arupajhanas differ from one another in the objects of meditation. Sorry Larry, this is probably more than you were asking for. > > You gave me rather more than I could digest concerning Path Condition. > Could you decifer the abbreviations and give a very short explanation of > the Conditioning States and Conditioned states for Path Condition in the > table on p. 311, CMA? Maybe this weekend. No rush. I will give you more information on Path condition on Sunday. Metta, Rob M :-) 23608 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Effort Hi, Rob - In a message dated 7/23/03 8:32:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Let me give an example to illustrate. > > Imagine that I am considering becoming a monk. I know that monks > have to eat whatever food is given to them (Vinaya rules do not > allow monks to choose their own food). Now I am a picky eater; I > don't like seafood and I don't like spicy food. I am afraid that > life as a monk might be quite unpleasant at times because I will be > forced to eat food that I do not like (when somebody gives it to > me). I know that becoming a monk is profitable; but I also know that > it would be an unpleasant course of action (at times). According to > the wonderful Sutta referenced by Victor, if I allow the knowledge > that life as a monk is (at times) an unpleasant course of action to > stop me from becoming a monk (which is profitable), then I am a fool. > > As you can see, this Sutta and the wisdom it contains operates at a > completely different level ("macro") than the citta / cetasika level > ("micro") that I was talking about. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) ================== Yes, I understand. Thank you. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23609 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object condition Thanks Rob, I'm not sure what I was asking about the formless jhanas. The relationship between the jhana citta and the jhana object is so subtle maybe it can't be hashed out. Thanks for the quote. Very interesting. Larry 23610 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:22pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi RobM, Victor and Cetasika, I am never confident about the interpretation of suttas and the Thana Sutta (sp?) is no exception but this is how it seems to me, I wonder if you will agree: There are four courses of action: 1. unpleasant and unprofitable: An example that comes to mind is, 'striving to harvest unripened crops.' No one is likely to do that. 2. unpleasant and profitable: -- striving to harvest ripened crops. A wise person would do that. 3. pleasant and unprofitable: -- resting while ripened crops rot in the field. A fool would do that. 4. pleasant and profitable: -- resting while unripened crops ripen in the field. Everyone is likely to do that. In the Thana Sutta, only concepts are directly referred to. The conventional advice it contains could be given by any wise person -- an agricultural scientist, for example. Moreover, the conventional advice is unsatisfactory. We know from experience, that courses of action are neither entirely pleasant nor entirely unpleasant. When striving in the field, we can have pleasant experiences of a cool breeze and when resting on the verandah, we can be annoyed by biting insects; there are always moments of pleasure and pain, however brief. The same applies to the profitability and unprofitability of courses of action; in our world, none of these things is clear cut and absolute. However, the Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths and so, when he delivered the Thana Sutta, the meaning was profound and entirely satisfactory -- knowable only to the wise, unknowable to the fool: 1. dukkha When there is the concept of a course of action (unpleasant or pleasant, profitable or unprofitable), there is, in truth, dukkha. When there is the concept of living being (foolish or wise), there is, in truth, dukkha. The Noble Ones -- the wisest of beings -- directly know that only dhammas are real and that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. 2. the cause of dukkha When there is desire to follow one of the four courses of action or when there is desire for existence, then there is the cause of dukkha. 3. the cessation of dukkha The cessation of desire, and thereby of dukkha, is Nibbana. 4. the path The understanding, thought, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness and concentration that are unique to the Noble Ones, lead to Nibbana. Corrections welcome, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-115.html > > Victor, thank you so much. I owe you big time for this. > > As I started to read your message, the following thoughts occured in > my mind, "How can Victor say that? Victor must know that the only > cittas associated with unpleasant feeling are akusala (rooted in > aversion)." > > In my mind, I started to craft a polite but firm reply saying, "No, > you're wrong!" > > Victor, that is when I noticed that you had included a link to a > Sutta (one that I had not read before). > > I read the Sutta slowly (I always read Suttas slowly). I then > understood that you were talking about "unpleasant courses of > action" whereas I was talking about "mental states associated with > unpleasant feeling". One might say that I was looking at the "micro" > view while you were looking at the "macro" view. > > I then asked myself, "Given the question asked by Cetasika, would it > be more appropriate to focus on macro issues or micro issues?" 23611 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:00pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Ken H, In many Suttas (Mn63, Sn LVI.31, etc.) the Buddha stressed that his teaching is connected with the goal, relates to the rudiments of the holy life, and leads to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening and to unbinding (i.e. Nibbana). Your harvesting analogies are accurate, but it is difficult to link these analogies to the Buddha's stated goal of his teaching. The Buddha understood human nature extremely well and realized that there would be fools who avoided the holy life because they were picky eaters (to use my analogy). I interpret this Sutta as an admonishment to fools such as this. I did not understand your linkage between this Sutta and the four noble truths. Can you explain the linkage another way to help me to understand. Does anybody have the commentary to this Sutta? What does it say? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi RobM, Victor and Cetasika, > > I am never confident about the interpretation of suttas and > the Thana Sutta (sp?) is no exception but this is how it > seems to me, I wonder if you will agree: > > There are four courses of action: > > 1. unpleasant and unprofitable: > > An example that comes to mind is, 'striving to > harvest unripened crops.' No one is likely to do that. > > 2. unpleasant and profitable: > > -- striving to harvest ripened crops. A wise person > would do that. > > > 3. pleasant and unprofitable: > > -- resting while ripened crops rot in the field. A > fool would do that. > > > 4. pleasant and profitable: > > -- resting while unripened crops ripen in the field. > Everyone is likely to do that. > > > In the Thana Sutta, only concepts are directly referred > to. The conventional advice it contains could be > given by any wise person -- an agricultural scientist, > for example. > > Moreover, the conventional advice is unsatisfactory. We > know from experience, that courses of action are neither > entirely pleasant nor entirely unpleasant. When striving > in the field, we can have pleasant experiences of a cool > breeze and when resting on the verandah, we can be > annoyed by biting insects; there are always moments of > pleasure and pain, however brief. > > The same applies to the profitability and unprofitability > of courses of action; in our world, none of these things > is clear cut and absolute. > > However, the Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths and so, > when he delivered the Thana Sutta, the meaning was > profound and entirely satisfactory -- knowable only to > the wise, unknowable to the fool: > > 1. dukkha > > When there is the concept of a course of action > (unpleasant or pleasant, profitable or unprofitable), > there is, in truth, dukkha. When there is the concept of > living being (foolish or wise), there is, in truth, > dukkha. The Noble Ones -- the wisest of beings -- > directly know that only dhammas are real and that all > conditioned dhammas are dukkha. > > 2. the cause of dukkha > > When there is desire to follow one of the four > courses of action or when there is desire for > existence, then there is the cause of dukkha. > > 3. the cessation of dukkha > > The cessation of desire, and thereby of dukkha, is > Nibbana. > > 4. the path > > The understanding, thought, speech, action, livelihood, > effort, mindfulness and concentration that are unique to > the Noble Ones, lead to Nibbana. > > > Corrections welcome, > Ken H 23612 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Effort > Does anybody have the commentary to this Sutta? What > does it say? Hi Great Rob !!! The sutta mentioned on above is a member of the Anguttara Nikaya recollection (IV.115):How can you recognize a good and wise person and their four traits of recognition. Metta, Ícarvs 23613 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Peter Thanks for this info, and glad to hear you'll be around for the next week or so at least. I believe you were a monk previously -- was that in the Ajahn Maha Boowa group also? If so, you should have a good chance of being accepted; otherwise I have heard that ordination is more difficult for 'walk-in' candidates these days. Please feel free to give us a report or 2 of life in the north-east and especially of any monasteries you visit. I expect many of our members would be quite interested to hear. Jon --- peterdac4298 wrote: > Hi Jon et al > > Thanks for the offer. Right now I'm in Udon, holed up for a couple > of weeks, so have a chance to access DSG from a local Internet Cafe. > With more time to hand, can be a little more coherent. I do > apreciate > your offers for assistance, very heartening to know. My first aim > is to > visit Ajahn Maha Boowa at Wat Pa Baan Taad, hence the Udon stop. > After that I have not made any plans, as I am rather hoping to be > accepted (ie ordained) into his group. Since this is largely a > collection of > forest monasteries where the focus is on simplicity and training > through > the implementation of the Vinaya, I rather doubt if I'll have many > opportunities to get online during the next few years. However, 23614 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Larry Thanks very much for starting this series. Regarding your question, I think there are some omitted words in the text here. The words explaining the benefits that have been acquired have been replaced in the text by the words "[described in Chs. XII and XIII]", which you did not quote (no doubt thinking them superflous) but without which the passage doesn't have proper meaning. The passage dealing with the benefits of concentration actually begins at Ch. XI, 120 (they are fivefold)and, on my reading, are set out at XI, 120 to 124, and amplified at Chs. XII and XIII. (They might be worth discussing also at some stage.) I hope this give the answer you were looking for. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, > > Would someone like to say a few words on this sentence: > > "And that [consciousness] has been developed in all its aspects by > the > bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of > concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the > benefits." > > Larry 23615 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Rob M I am not sure how apt your analogy the observer of a billiard game is. The only 'world' that is to be understood according to the teachings is the world of the six senses, not the world at large (which I see as being analogous to the billiard game). The world of the six senses does not bear any direct relationship to the world at large. Jon --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Let me try to express this concept another way. > > "The world" operates as a natural system according to a set of > rules > (niyama). There is no "self" with "objective observer" status. The > stream of nama-rupa called "Rob" is not separate from "the world", > rather it is part of "the world"; subject to the same set of rules. > > This stream of nama-rupa has the capacity to impact "the world". > > As an analogy, imagine you are watching a billiard game. If you are > sitting in the stands or watching on TV, it is clear what is > happening (you have "objective observer" status). Now imagine that > you are a very, very small bug resting on the cue-ball. The > perspective of the small bug living on the cue ball limits the > level > of understanding it can achieve (this is my understanding of > Godel's > incompleteness theorem). To "see things as they truly are", the > small bug must be able to get off of the cue ball to be able to > take an objective observer status. 23616 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Dear group (Larry, a small question for you below), From my study of this passage in Pali so far, I think ~Naan.namoli's as well as Tin's translations do not convey the basic sentence structure as found in the Pali. The problem is that the whole passage is actually one sentence made up of many clauses and subclauses even though in some of the editions (HOS, CSCD, Rewata) the Pali has been broken up into smaller sentences. But because of the presence of the correlatives: 'yasmaa' (because, since) and 'tasmaa' (therefore) marking two major clauses, I have to agree with the Thai reading (Budsir) that it's really all one sentence and by no means easy to translate as such into English. The kernel as I'm understanding it is: Now, because (yasmaa) concentration has thus been developed by the bhikkhu, and furthermore, (because) understanding has next to be developed; and (because) this {understanding) is not easy to even understand, let alone develop; therefore (tasmaa) the following is a set of questions to show a detailed explanation (of understanding) and its method of development: [list of questions]. Some interesting details in the Maha Tika: there is a complete listing of the "aspects" in "in all its aspects" (sabbaakaarena). For "comes next": in the order of the teaching and in the order of the practice (desanaakkamena pa.tipattikkamena ca). A clear indication that, in practice, the development of concentration precedes that of understanding. I think (with) "direct-knowledge" (abhi~n~naavasena) could be plural (I'm thinking of the five). 'vasena' can also mean: by way of, through the influence of, by virtue of. To Larry: In "And that has yet to be developed." Does your edition actually read 'yet'? I ask this because mine has 'still'. Maybe you have a newer revised edition. Best wishes, Jim > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV > > 1. Now concentration was described under the heading of "Consciousness" > in the stanza. > > 'When a wise man, established well in Virtue, develops Consciousness and > understanding'. > > And that has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is > thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that > has acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits. But "Understanding" > comes next. And that has yet to be developed. Now that is not easy, > firstly even to know about, let alone to develop, when it is taught very > briefly. In order, therefore, to deal with the detailed method of its > development there is the following set of questions: [...] 23617 From: christhedis Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:27am Subject: Vedanta, Atma Vichara Greetings all, This is from Message #22812, which was a reply over a month ago to a thread I started about meditation vs. thinking. In reviewing the replies to this thread, I wanted to pick up on something RobertK said, but as a new topic. By the way, I read and re-read all the replies and found them informative and helpful. I am very grateful for the help. > > Thus, is it possible to deeply understand the teachings through > mere "everyday contemplation", and if not, why not? Is meditation > necessary because it slows the mind and allows for the clearest type of > insight? > > _______ -Dear Chris, -I picked up a magazine yesterday that compared yoga and Buddhism and -an article 'explained' that vedanta was the same as Buddhism because -by meditation both showed that everything was impermanent, dukkha -and not-self. Except that vedanta went further and revealed -the 'underlying basis upon which the world rests' (I forget the -exact phrase). This is what the writer believes. - -Robertk Now for my new topic: I've studied a bit of vedanta, as well as Atma Vichara. It seems to me as though these 'philosophies' do indeed lead one to the understanding of impermanence and not-self, hence similar to Buddhism in where the student is lead. Would others in this group agree that they are somewhat 'similar means to the same end'? Is it meant to be possible to even reach nibbana through these other philosophies? Thus, could they be said to be 'alternate paths' to enlightenment? As for vedanta going further and revealing the 'underlying basis', I found vedanta to be highly theoretical after a point. I had no reason to believe or not to believe in this underlying basis. Buddhism, on the other hand, seems to be more scientific, no theoretical possibilities to believe in. Comments? Chris. 23618 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:40am Subject: FW: Co. to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, no 2 ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:31:47 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co. to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, no 2 Co. to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, no 2 2 B: tattha bhagavaa supupphitasaalavanamajjhagato Then the Exalted One went into the middle of a flowering Salgrove, subhuumiotara.natthaaya nikkhantamattavaravaara.no viya virocittha, splendid as a superb elephant that departs in order to descend to the battle field, raahulabhaddo ca varavaara.nassa pacchato nikkhantagajapotako viya. and Lucky Rahula was like the elephant young departing behind the superb elephant. bhagavaa saayanhasamaye ma.niguhato nikkhamitvaa gocara.m pa.tipanno kesarasiiho viya, The Exalted One was like a maned lion that departs towards evening from his jewelled cave and wanders about in his field, raahulabhaddo ca siihamigaraajaana.m anubandhanto nikkhantasiihapotako viya. and Lucky Rahula was like a lion¹s young that departs following the lion, the king of animals. bhagavaa ma.nipabbatasassirikavanasa.n.dato daa.thabalo mahaabyaggho viya, The Exalted One was like a great tiger with strong teeth, emerging from the splendid jungle thicket of the jewelled mountain, raahulabhaddo ca byaggharaajaana.m anubandhabyagghapotako viya. and Lucky Rahula was like the tiger¹s young following the king of tigers. English: Then the Exalted One went into the middle of a flowering Salgrove, splendid as a superb elephant that departs in order to descend to the battle field, and Lucky Rahula was like the elephant young departing behind the superb elephant. The Exalted One was like a maned lion that departs towards evening from his jewelled cave and wanders about in his field, and Lucky Rahula was like a lion¹s young that departs following the lion which is the king of animals. The Exalted One was like a majestic tiger with strong teeth, emerging from the splendid jungle thicket of the jewelled mountain, and Lucky Rahula was like the tiger¹s young following the king of tigers. Nina. 23619 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Inquiry to Nina... Dear Kio, op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > the aim is understanding of mind- > matter relationship, by dissecting or rather becoming aware of > specific happenings that we experience in our daily life (that we > were unaware of before). Such insight will enable us to become > aware of what is going on – in terms of cause and effect > relationship My Time with A. Sujin 7. During a pilgrimage in India with A. Sujin, Phra Dhammadharo, Jonothan and other friends we discussed Dhamma all night in the train to Bodhgaya. During that night we discussed the difference between thinking of nama and rupa and direct awareness of them. We may notice that realities appear through different doorways, that sound is experienced through ears and hardness is experienced through the bodysense. However, we may take noticing realities for direct awareness of them. A. Sujin said, ³You may believe, ŒI have developed a great deal of understanding, I sees that there is nothing else but nama and rupa.¹ ² She then explained that in reality this is only thinking, not direct understanding of one nama or rupa at a time. Hearing is nama, it experiences sound. Sound is rupa, it does not experience anything. When hearing arises we think almost immediately of the meaning of the sound, its origin, of words which were spoken and the meaning of those words. Thinking is another type of nama, different from hearing. Her remarks were an eye-opener to me. This shows again how important discussions on the Dhamma are. Without them our misunderstandings of the Dhamma would not appear. That night in the train passed very quickly, and before we realized it we were in Bodhgaya. One of our friends offered breakfast to Phra Dhammadharo and to the Samanera (novice) who was also present. We also stayed in Varanasi, in Hotel de Paris. When we were walking in the garden of that hotel, we heard a band with drums, and immediately we had an image of people marching and playing. A. Sujin explained that we build up stories on account of what we experience through the senses. Sound, hearing and thinking are ultimate realities, the stories we think of are concepts or ideas, different from ultimate realities. It is difficult to distinguish different realities, it is direct understanding, panna, that is able to do so. Panna cannot suddenly arise, it is gradually developed by studying, considering what we learn, discussing, asking questions. We may be thinking of ourselves and others, walking in the garden of Hotel de Paris, but if we die now, the story comes to an end. Actually, each citta that falls away is a moment of dying. With the citta that falls away, the story comes to an end. Many years later Lodewijk and I walked to Hotel de Paris again, and then we saw that it had become neglected and that nothing of it¹s old glory was left. If we try to separate nama from rupa or if we try to think of both nama and rupa, there is only thinking, no awareness of either of them. One may believe that knowing what is going on is right awareness. Someone may know that he sees or that he hears, but that is not satipaììhåna. When right awareness arises it is mindful of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa as they appear one at a time. Right mindfulness and right understanding arise when there are conditions for their arising. They are conditioned by study, listening and considering the Dhamma one heard. Throughout all these years with A. Sujin we discussed again and again what seeing is: the experience of what appears through eyesense. We discussed what hearing is: the experience of what appears through the earsense. We are always forgetful of seeing and hearing, because we are more interested in concepts such as people, things and events. We can never be reminded enough of nåma and rúpa, because these are ultimate realities paññå has to understand. Right understanding of nåma and rúpa leads to detachment from the idea of self. We were reminded that awareness is not self, it cannot be induced. A. Sujin asked us: ²Who is aware?² When we answered, ³Awareness is aware², she said, ²That is in the book, but in your mind?² Such remarks made us realize how much we are still clinging to the idea of ³my awareness². Nina. 23620 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta Nipata Comy Dear Sarah and Kom, op 23-07-2003 10:39 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > The translation to the Sutta Nipata Comy has been high on my ‘wish’ list > for a long time. Out of interest, is it a long text, like the Udana Comy, > or a short one? N: Perhaps meanwhile Kom could help us with some passages of the Thai text of the Co. I do not have this in Thai. Nina. 23621 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] legal action Dear Sarah, op 23-07-2003 11:13 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: I discussed with Lodewijk your tongue cutting incident. I hope it is cured. Such an incident can happen to all of us, and it is true that we can see result of kamma, but Lodewijk said, if we say all the time: just conditions, I will have metta and upekkha, not do anything, it may be too much. He said, we have to be careful saying, conditions, conditions, and he hopes at least the restaurant provided the doctor. If that were so, he himself would perhaps not take legal action. And they should pay you compensation money, at least for the dinner. It is as you said before to me: unlimited metta, but, we have to be reasonable. If we don't say anything, they will also be careless with other clients, what do you think? There is the world of paramattha dhammas but there is also the world of conventional realities. Nina. 23622 From: Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] legal action Hi, Nina (and Sarah) - In a message dated 7/24/03 1:42:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Sarah, > op 23-07-2003 11:13 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I discussed with Lodewijk your tongue cutting incident. I hope it is cured. > Such an incident can happen to all of us, and it is true that we can see > result of kamma, but Lodewijk said, if we say all the time: just conditions, > I will have metta and upekkha, not do anything, it may be too much. He said, > we have to be careful saying, conditions, conditions, and he hopes at least > the restaurant provided the doctor. If that were so, he himself would > perhaps not take legal action. And they should pay you compensation money, > at least for the dinner. > It is as you said before to me: unlimited metta, but, we have to be > reasonable. If we don't say anything, they will also be careless with other > clients, what do you think? There is the world of paramattha dhammas but > there is also the world of conventional realities. > Nina. > > =========================== I agree with Lodewijk. Yes, all just conditions. But the conditions that led to cutting Sarah's tongue involved negligence of others who had the resposibility to not be negligent. Talking of conventional realities is just a matter of using complex verbal abbreviations and can still consist of uttering very real truths not easily expressible if one had to speak only of paramattha dhammas directly. I was thinking about the role of concepts in providing knowledge the other day while out driving locally. I was parked in the parking lot of a small shopping center. I wanted to drive to a certain intersection. I figured out, by a combination of mental visualizing and verbal thinking, that I could most easily get to that intersection by making a particular sequence of driving moves involving several consecutive turns interspersed with straight driving. I followed my plan,and it worked perfectly, ending me up quickly at the intended intersection. My experience of getting from the parking lot to the intersection in actuality involved a sequence of trillions upon trillions of mind moments involved sight, sound, touch, and thoughts and other namas. Had I attempted to plan out my trip in such terms, the plan could never have been made, and, per force, not the trip. The information needed to make the trip was *only* possible via concepts, and that information led to the arising of a stream of actualities, not just conventional events, that otherwise would not have arisen. Not everything that needs to be known can be known without depending on concept formation and manipulation. Or so it seems to me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23623 From: Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Jim: "To Larry: In "And that has yet to be developed." Does your edition actually read 'yet'? I ask this because mine has 'still'. Maybe you have a newer revised edition." Hi Jim, My mistake. My edition does read "still". I am not a good typist so it would be good if everyone could keep an eye out for errors. Much appreciated. Larry 23624 From: Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Hi Jon, I was hoping someone would briefly elucidate this sentence for the benefit of those who don't have the book or are too lazy to look up the answer. Would you care to give it a shot? Larry --------------------- "And that [consciousness] has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits." 23625 From: Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vedanta, Atma Vichara Hi Chris, The main thing is to look and see for yourself. Asking "who am I" (atma vichara) is as good a question as any if you actually look at what seems to be oneself. The usual answer is " a composite". So, where is this composite and of what is it composed? Is this composite what you mean when you say "I want", "I don't want", or "I don't get it"? You can refer to the various doctrines for the "correct answers" but the main thing is to grab the bull (maya/samsara) by the horns and see for yourself. Larry 23626 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 7:58pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi RobM, To summarise the discussion so far: Victor wrote; "skilful action can be either pleasant or unpleasant to do," and he quoted the Thana Sutta. You said your first reaction was to deny this on the grounds that kusala cetana is never accompanied by unpleasant mental feeling. Then you conceded that a COURSE of skilful action could be unpleasant to do. This led you to suggest that the Dhamma was taught on two levels: a micro level, in which there are only paramattha dhammas, and a macro level, in which there are concepts (such as courses of action). We both saw the Thana Sutta, as being at the macro level. It shows how courses of action can be put into four categories and it shows how each, in turn, is followed by either the foolish, the wise or both. I thought it was pretty elementary. It seemed to ignore the fact that a course of action is rarely all pleasant, all unpleasant, all kusala or all akusala. After all, there are countless billions of paramattha mind moments in any, conceptual, course of action. My point was that, superficially, the macro level teaching is no different from conventional, non-Buddhist teachings. Such teachings can perpetuate all sorts of wrong view. It is only when we hear the macro-level suttas with an understanding of the micro-level suttas (and the Abhidhamma), that their true meaning can be appreciated. What is the true meaning in this case? I don't really know; perhaps it is that what seems unpleasant to do, for example 'giving a treasured possession to the poor,' is actually profitable and, therefore, not unpleasant at all. (?) I'm sure if I gave away my favourite wristwatch (which tells the state of the tide at Noosa), I would be devastated and would regret having done so. However, that course of action may have involved some precious kusala moments -- much more precious than any wristwatch. As an uninstructed worldling, I wouldn't know. In my experience, first impressions of suttas are always wide of the mark; as you said, we should read the Commentaries. ------------- > I did not understand your linkage between this Sutta and the four noble truths. > -------------- A person with an understanding of the four noble truths, knows that there are only dhammas, and that all conditioned dhammas are anicca, dukkha and anatta. What I described was my conception of how a person, with this micro-level understanding, might interpret the macro level, Thana-sutta. I can see that what I wrote wasn't very clear and I can assure you, you haven't missed much -- it didn't break any new ground. :-) ------------- > Can you explain the linkage another way to help me to understand. > ------------- For what it's worth, another way of putting it might be: When it is conventionally said, "an unpleasant course of action is being followed," a bhikkhu knows that only the five khandhas are spoken of. When it is said, "a course of action is producing profitable results," again, there are only the five khandhas. When it is said "a wise man follows this course of action" . . . and so on. The instructed bhikkhu knows the pleasant khandha as pleasant: the unpleasant as unpleasant: the neutral as neutral. He knows that all khandhas are dukkha, knows the cause of dukkha, its cessation and the path. Further corrections still welcome :-) Ken 23627 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] more on piti Hi Larry, op 24-07-2003 01:57 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I believe concentration is synonymous with one-pointedness > (ekaggata cetasika), N: Yes L:but as it is used here as proximate cause to > understanding (panna) it means not wandering. In other words, not > reacting but simply observing. N: I see it in this way: when sati is mindful of a nama or rupa, and samadhi is (for that short moment) fixed on that one object, panna can know it as it is. L: What would you suggest as a proximate > cause for this? Do you consider this proximate cause to be "born of > seclusion from the hindrances" as piti is? N: I do not look for a proximate cause of a proximate cause. Intellectual right understanding of the object of satipatthana and the way of its development: no self trying to concentrate or to have sati. When the condiitons are right, there will be as Jon said. Nina. 23628 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Dear Jim, Thank you very much for your interesting remarks. Just a thing I wonder about, see below. op 24-07-2003 17:19 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > > Some interesting details in the Maha Tika: there is a complete listing > of the "aspects" in "in all its aspects" (sabbaakaarena). For "comes > next": in the order of the teaching and in the order of the practice > (desanaakkamena pa.tipattikkamena ca). A clear indication that, in > practice, the development of concentration precedes that of > understanding. > N: It depends in whose pratice. I read: Here is the case of the bhikkhu who has developed jhana and also the abhinnas, including superpowers such as diving into the earth. This bhikkhu will develop panna to the degree of arahatship and even have the four analytical powers. This is no longer the case at the present time. I do not see this as a rule for everybody. I cannot see a set order of first sila, then samadhi, then panna. As we discussed before, the Vis. deals with all degrees of sila, even the eradication of all defilements can also be seen under sila. Evenso there are many degrees of concentration. In the Vis I read that only very, very few can attain jhana. But I will rather wait and see what the Tika further explains. Nina. 23629 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting into practice Dear Kom and Jon, op 21-07-2003 08:26 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > I don't think I can put it any better than Jon already did. > I think when there is an intention, strong enough to be > noticeable, to "notice" or "catch" something, it is most > likely the attachment to knowing the dhammas, to making > progress, to having sati, to being someone who has sati, and > all the other various shades of attachment more than > insights. I think it is normal to have such attachments, > (because we are still full of self) which is why is so > important to carefully learn the differences between sati > and the samudhaya, and to realize that attachment will lead > one yet to more rebirths rather than getting one out of it. > Does something one does/thinks of leads to more attachment? > That is not the teaching of the Buddha. N: I appreciate all the extra remarks by you and Jon, and we can see that admirable friends are very helpful, as Christine would say. As you say, we should know all the different shades of attachment. I am always in for additional remarks, thank you very much, Nina. 23630 From: bodhi dhamma Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:52pm Subject: chanting and transference of merits to petas Sarah, thank you for your reply, sorry for my late response as I am busy with the works. The recent upsurge in regional stock market really make me a busy man from 9 to 5 ( I work as a stock dealer with three telephones on my desk ). In a crazy stock market, I use to see greedy punters chasing after illusions. They ignorantly/blindly believe that a particular stock may increase in price overnight,.Very often they listen to rumours, hearsay......etc. without a slight use of their own wisdom. They are so naiive that they believe money can easily fall from the sky into their own pocket, just like that.It is true that people are still full of greed and are ignorant. The punters are not aware of the impermenance of joy when they make some money from their gamble (they turn the purportedly investment market into a casino).In fact the market situation itself is impermanence and is unpredictable. One moment of joy often turns into dukkha ! I always see people disappear from the market after that, many of them run away from the family, the creditors, bankers ...etc. What a sorrowful life for them ( many of the still owe me substantial sum) as a result of greed , craving and ignorance. Sometime I regret of having a "wrong livelihood". but after reading Rob"s "right effort",. I began to realise that my past effort to advise those "stock-punters" not to speculate but to invest on long term basis, is a right effort (instead of changing my profession, running away from realty) Stock market is good place to experience/realise the dhamma. From books and from personal observations, I thus realise that the teachings of Buddha is very true and applicable to our daily life. Regarding the to topic of chanting, I rely mainly on secondary sources.My discussions with the class was fruitful. Last night after the sutra discussion class, one member told me an interesting incidence that happened during a chanting session held on previous Tuesday. He said he could "feel" the presence of unseen beings (obviously the petas) in the chanting hall. It is possible as our temple is side-by-side with the cementary. There must be lots of petas around the temple! Their presence is to wish to have some of merits ( it is our practice to share merits after the chanting) , I think. Another incidence was told by a yogi (very often we conduct meditation retreat in the temple, and yogi would spend some nights there) . He had a dream one night. A "being" told not to worry as "he" only come to visit the temple, not to harm the yogi ! For those who have the aforesaid experiences, they have developed a strong faith in chanting and transference of merits to petas. The power and benefits derive from chanting are thus NO nonsense ! I wish to share my above experience with everyone in the group. SADHU ! SADHU ! SADHU ! with metta , p c p/s sorry to Rob Moult, I have been absent from his sunday abhidhamma class ever since our beginners class started. I am still reading his abhidhamma book, a very excellent copy. 23631 From: Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] more on piti Hi Nina, I agree with your remarks and perhaps I am trying to make too much of the 'tidy package'. However I disagree here: Nina: "I do not look for a proximate cause of a proximate cause." L: This is the paticcasamuppada method, to analyze backward thru proximate causes to see where a process came from and how it works. Incidentally, here is something I like which I found while looking up the benefits of concentration: Vism XI, 121: When ordinary people and Trainers develop it [concentration] thinking 'After emerging we shall exercize insight with concentrated consciousness', the development of absorption concentration provides them with the benefit of insight by serving as the proximate cause for insight, and so too does access concentration as a method of arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances]. Hence the Blessed One said: 'Bhikkhus, develop concentration; a bhikkhu who is concentrated understands correctly' (S. iii, 13). L: The note says, "The process of existence in the round of rebirths, which is a very cramped place, is crowded by the defilements of craving and so on." I think this clearly shows that concentration (and insight) can arise in ordinary circumstances as you said. Larry 23632 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 0:13am Subject: [dsg] evil companion dear group, I was reading here on dsg. but can't remember where,and will quote: 'I'm blind , my eyes are destroyed. I've stumbled on a wilderness track. Even if I must crawl, I'll go on, but not with an evil companion'. The more I read this, the starker it becomes and it kind of reminds me of Ray Bradbury's stories [sci-fi]; however, I'm wondering what constitutes an evil companion. Is this evil companion someone who is truly evil, like a murderer, or does this refer to anyone who does not follow the Dhamma? I think it means the latter, but would like other's comment on this. I have been listening to tapes from the India trips and A. Sujin talks about being courageous: 'one has to be courageous and cheerful to understand any kind of reality which Sati is aware of--' How courageous is the speaker of the above passage - the Bodhisatva, no doubt. A not-very-courageous-at-the-moment, Azita. 23633 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 0:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Burma itinerary, finally Hi Shakti, --- shakti wrote: > Hi Betty, > > I have a few other questions about the trip. .... It's good to see your name again!! It’ll be super if you can join the trip. It might be best if you send your Burma qus to her off-list as well as she’s sometimes way behind on DSG posts and may not have seen your note. The same applies to Chuck or anyone else too. With metta, Sarah p.s Let me know off-list if you’d like to join Christine, Jon and myself for a leisurely breakfast on the Saturday before the trip at our hotel. ========================================== 23634 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 1. Hi Azita, I hope you don’t mind me adding a few comments to your note to Nina. --- gazita2002 wrote: A:>My life seems to have done > a bit of a loopy loop these last couple of weeks. > Sometimes, I think this dhamma is just too hard and then there is the > reminder that even those moments of despair are real and can be known. ..... S: I’m sorry to hear about the ‘loopy loop’ - as you say moments of thinking and despair can be known. Of course it isn’t really the dhamma that is so hard, but rather the tenacious kilesa (defilements) -- especially the ignorance and wrong views -- which cover up the truth and make it difficult to appreciate the reminders. ..... <....> A:> I find that in my thinking, I feel quite secure that I'm cool, > calm and collected, but when confronted with hurtful matters, the > citta so conditions rupa that my voice changes and my body hurts. > > We can blame the other for hurting us, but we know that if we didn't > have defilements then nothing would hurt. Long way to go!!! ..... S: It’s true -- long way to go. It’s good that you can appreciate where the real hurt is even at these times. I mentioned that I’d appreciated the reminders about the ‘defilements of the perfections’ in Nina’s recent series. The defilement of the perfection of patience as given in the Comy to the Cariyapitaka (Basket of Conduct) is “discriminating thoughts of oneself and others”. I think it’s so true that when we think of ourselves and others that so often there is no patience. We also read in the Comy (p 275 onwards in B.Bodhi’s translation of the Brahmajala Sutta & Commentaries)that patience opposes the defilements ‘by accepting the desirable, the undesirable, and emptiness’and that ‘through patience, the enduring of the wrongs of others’ results. K.Sujin used to say in effect that if one couldn’t pass the small tests with patience, such as when one is sick or hears harsh words, how is one going to pass the big tests when one really suffers? We might think sometimes that we are really suffering, but I find the following reminders are a helpful ‘wake-up’ call: Also from the Comy to the Cariyapitaka, we read about how a bodhisatva: “should contemplate the whole wold of sentient beings immersed in the great sufering of samsara and in the sufferings of the defilements and kamma-formations at its base. He should see the beings in hell experiencing violent, racking agonizing pains uninterruptedly over long periods, produced as they are cut up, dismembered, split, pulverized, and roasted in scorching fires; the great suffering of the animals due to their mutual hostility, as they afflict, harass, and kill one another, or fall into captivity at the hands of others; and the suffering of the various classes of ghosts, going about with their bodies aflame, consumed and withered by hunger, thirst, wind, and sun, weeping and wailing as their food turns into vomit and spittle. He should contemplate as well the suffering experienced by men, which is often indistinguishable from the suffering in the plane of misery: the misery and ruin they encounter in their search (for the means of sustenance and enjoyment); the various punishments they may meet, such as the cutting off of their hands, etc; ugliness, deformity, and poverty; affliction by hunger and thirst; being vanquished by the more powerful, pressed into the service of others, and made dependent upon others; and when they pass away, falling over into the hells, the realm of ghosts, and the animal kingdom.” ..... S:I think that if we can appreciate these reminders with equanimity or compassion rather than with sorrow or unpleasant feelings, they can be very helpful. We might think life is very fine in the deva realms and these beings don’t need any compassion or any great patience with their lots. However, the passage continues: ..... “He should see the gods of the sense-sphere being consumed by the fevers of lust as they enjoy their sense objects with scattered minds; living wiht their fever (of passions) unextinguished like a mass of fire stoked up with blasts of wind and fed with a stock of dry wood; without peace, dejected, and dependent on others." ..... S: So what about the gods in the rupa and arupa planes -- surely they don't suffer from these problems, I thought as I was reading this..the passage continues: ..... "And he should see the gods of the fine-material and immaterial spheres, after so long a life-span, in the end succomb to the law of impermanence, plunging from their heights back down into the round of birth, ageing, and death, like birds swooping swiftly down from the heights of the sky or like arrows shot by a strong arm descending in the distance. And having seen all this, he should arouse a sense of spiritual urgency, and suffuse all beings universally with loving-kindness and compassion.” ***** S:Azita, these may not be helpful reminders at this time for you, but please remember that the ‘loopy loop’ times don’t last either. May they also be a condition for a sense of urgency (samvega)and the development of satipatthana. <...> > Patience, patience and more patience .... S: Hope to hear the courage and good cheer again soon too;-) Metta, Sarah p.s So glad to hear you'll be joining the Cooran group again -- I'm sure your presence is a great asset to the group -- and also hope to see you in Thailand before too long. ======================= 23635 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] legal action Dear Nina & Howard, Thanks for raising these interesting points and for your concern. Before I add a few thoughts, let me assure you that my tongue made a fast recovery and I was very well-taken care of by the staff and hotel doctor. I’ve also been offered a meal at any of the hotel’s restaurants with four friends. I’ve asked to take a rain-check until there is a special occasion, such as when a particular friend who has been through lots of cancer treatment returns to Hong Kong and can help me and some other friends run up a big bill eating some Chinese or Japanese delicacies ;-) ...... --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > op 23-07-2003 11:13 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I discussed with Lodewijk your tongue cutting incident. I hope it is > cured. > Such an incident can happen to all of us, and it is true that we can see > result of kamma, but Lodewijk said, if we say all the time: just > conditions, > I will have metta and upekkha, not do anything, it may be too much. He > said, > we have to be careful saying, conditions, conditions, and he hopes at > least > the restaurant provided the doctor. If that were so, he himself would > perhaps not take legal action. And they should pay you compensation > money, > at least for the dinner. .... Actually, it was a brunch (remember we don’t eat dinner;-)) out by the pool at the hotel where we use the health club -- our main luxury in life here. Like Lodevijk, I don’t think that saying ‘conditions, conditions’ or having metta and upekkha means not taking any action. I believe that could be a kind of wrong view -- a view that understanding conditions or having metta means sitting back and being passive in life rather than acting naturally and within our limitations. Whilst I really wouldn’t have considered taking legal action even if the hotel hadn’t responded well -- in my case more to do with always having been surrounded by lawyers and knowing that legal action is usually better avoided -- I’ve felt very comfortable in making a few points in friendly discussions with a manager to help ensure precautions are taken in future to hopefully prevent any recurrences with anyone else. (In fact, as this accident happened just two days before Tony Blair and entourage arrived for a large reception at the same hotel, I don’t think the senior staff needed any assistance to thoroughly reasses food preparation issues. The one inch piece of glass that had lodged itself in my tongue was identified as being the same as from a kitchen breakage, so there was no question about responsibility). ..... > It is as you said before to me: unlimited metta, but, we have to be > reasonable. If we don't say anything, they will also be careless with > other > clients, what do you think? There is the world of paramattha dhammas but > there is also the world of conventional realities. .... This particular incident had a very happy ending. I think the hotel are just very relieved that I’m well and that (from their point of view) I’ve taken it with good grace. I assured them that I wouldn’t be pursuing the matter and I also requested that no one would lose their job as a result, knowing how hotels are using any excuse to downsize their staff these days. I think, as Howard implies, there isn’t any rule about what kind of response one takes and we have to know our own limitations and tendencies as well. If the hotel managers hadn’t responded well, I would have still been concerned about staff getting into trouble and about difficulties and long troubled stories for both Jonothan and myself if I’d made a big fuss. This would have interfered with my routine and enjoyment when I use the pool and hassles for everyone. I prefer to forget these things as soon as possible. I don’t think the metta can be judged by the action taken necessarily at all, but I know that everyone at the hotel is giving me really great service these days and at this point I’m not sorry about what happened. I’m just relieved that I was eating slowly and carefully at the time so that the damage wasn’t more serious. With metta, Sarah p.s If anyone saw the BBC coverage of Blair’s visit here, the commentators were using the hotel pool (the scene of the ‘tongue cutting incident’ which Christine knows well) as a backdrop. ================================== 23636 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thank you for your comments. > > I would like to correct myself that instead of saying "It is > what/whom one desires for makes the difference" I should say "It is > what one desires for makes the difference." > > Desire in and of itself, like intent, is neutral in terms of > wholesome/skillful and unwholesome/unskillful. ..... I think you are meaning that chanda (desire/wish to do) and cetana (intention) can be wholesome/skillful or unwholesome/unskillful. If so, I agree with this. (They can also accompany vipaka (result) consciousness and kiriya (inoperative) consciousness. However, whenever they arise they are one of these at the time, rather than ‘neutral’. I don’t think we can just say that this nature or jati is determined by the object either. For example, visible object or thinking or other objects can be experienced with unwholesome desire (attachment and akusala chanda) or with detachment and wholesome chanda, even with right understanding and right effort as in your example. ..... > Any desire and passion with regard to the senses, the aggregates, > and the properties/dhatu is a defilement of mind.* > > That kind of desire is certainly different from the desire connected > with right effort mentioned in the following: > > > "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, > activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of > the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet > arisen. <....> ..... So on account of what objects are these wholesome states and right effort supposed to arise? On account of just the same objects which are usually the objects of attachment, ignorance and aversion. In otherwords, the ‘All’ are to be known by right understanding and accompanying factors. “Forms, sounds, odours, tastes, Tactiles and all objects of mind - Desirable, lovely, agreeable, So long as it’s said: ‘They are.’ “These are considered happiness By the world with its devas; But where these cease, That they consider suffering. “The noble ones have seen as happiness The ceasing of identity. This (view) of those who clearly see Runs counter to the entire world. “What others speak of as happiness, That the noble ones say is suffering; What others speak of as suffering, That the noble ones know as bliss.” (SN, Sa.laayatanavagga, Bk of Six Sense Bases., 136 Delight in Forms) ..... I may add other comments on your further points later, but I think I’ll see if we’re close to any kind of agreement here first of all. Metta, Sarah ====== 23637 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Hi Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 6:46 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) > The only 'world' that is to be understood according to the teachings > is the world of the six senses, not the world at large (which I see > as being analogous to the billiard game). > > The world of the six senses does not bear any direct relationship to > the world at large. This is pretty much the way I see it too. 'The world' outside of this context seems to me to fall into the context of the 'unconjecturables': "Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it." Anguttara Nikaya IV.77 Acintita Sutta Unconjecturable http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-077.html Not certain about this. I wonder if anyone has access to the commentary esp. on '[the origin, etc., of]'. mike 23638 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vedanta, Atma Vichara Hi Chris & All, Your question reminds me of our friend Dharam and his good questions. It would be good to hear his comments too if he’s still following. --- christhedis wrote: > Now for my new topic: > > I've studied a bit of vedanta, as well as Atma Vichara. It seems to > me as though these 'philosophies' do indeed lead one to the > understanding of impermanence and not-self, hence similar to Buddhism > in where the student is lead. Would others in this group agree that > they are somewhat 'similar means to the same end'? Is it meant to be > possible to even reach nibbana through these other philosophies? > Thus, could they be said to be 'alternate paths' to enlightenment? ..... Perhaps others will respond. In the meantime, let me offer this passage from the MahaParinibbana Sutta (as translated in Warren’s ‘Buddhism in Translations’, p105)for general consideration/comment: ***** "Subhadda, in whatever doctrine and discipline the noble eightfold path is not found, therein also is not found the monk of the first degree, nor the monk of the second degree, nor the monk of the third degree, nor the monk of the fourth degree; and in whatever doctrine and discipline, O Subhadda, the noble eightfold path is found, therein also are found the monk of the first degree, and the monk of the second degree, and the monk of the third degree, and the monk of the fourth degree. Now in this Doctrine and Discipline, O Subhadda, the noble eightfold path is found: and therein alone, O Subhadda, are found the monk of the first degree, and the monk of the second degree, and the monk of the third degree, and the monk of the fourth degree. Destitute of true monks are all other creeds. But let these my priests, O Subhadda, live rightly, and the world will not be destitute of saints. p. 106 [MPS.593 "What time my age was twenty-nine, Subhadda, I left the world to seek the summum bonum. Now fifty years and more have passed, Subhadda, Since I renounced the world and lived ascetic Within the Doctrine's pale, that rule of conduct Outside of which no genuine monk existeth, nor the monk of the second degree, nor the monk of the third degree, nor the monk of the fourth degree. Destitute of monks are all other creeds. But let these my priests, O Subhadda, live rightly, and the world will not be destitute of saints." ***** I’ll look forward to reading any comments. With metta, Sarah ======= 23639 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Dear Nina, [...] > > Some interesting details in the Maha Tika: there is a complete listing > > of the "aspects" in "in all its aspects" (sabbaakaarena). For "comes > > next": in the order of the teaching and in the order of the practice > > (desanaakkamena pa.tipattikkamena ca). A clear indication that, in > > practice, the development of concentration precedes that of > > understanding. > > > N: It depends in whose pratice. I read: its aspects by the bikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced > development of concentration that has acquired with direct knowledge the > benefits. But understanding comes next.> > Here is the case of the bhikkhu who has developed jhana and also the > abhinnas, including superpowers such as diving into the earth. This bhikkhu > will develop panna to the degree of arahatship and even have the four > analytical powers. This is no longer the case at the present time. I do not > see this as a rule for everybody. I cannot see a set order of first sila, > then samadhi, then panna. As we discussed before, the Vis. deals with all > degrees of sila, even the eradication of all defilements can also be seen > under sila. Evenso there are many degrees of concentration. In the Vis I > read that only very, very few can attain jhana. > But I will rather wait and see what the Tika further explains. > Nina. Thank-you for your comments and I agree with much of what you say here. The Vism describes the threefold training in a particular order and that is something to keep in mind when considering how one goes about developing the path. The way in which this hypothetical bhikkhu has practised serves as an excellent example even if one does not yet have the accumulations to carry it out in the same way during one's current existence. But, nevertheless, it remains a possibility in some future existence when the conditions are ripe. During the meantime one can continue to develop understanding at the theoretical level (sutamaya) and to work on the problem of how to put into practice what one has learnt from the texts. For myself, I hope that in some future life I too will be able to exemplify that bhikkhu. Best wishes, Jim 23640 From: vajramantra Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:33am Subject: Visuddhimagga, The Path of Purification Dear all, Does anyone know where the above mentioned work can be downloaded from? Thanks, Peter 23641 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] chanting and transference of merits to petas > > > > Sometime I regret of having a "wrong livelihood". > but after reading Rob"s > "right effort",. I began to realise that my past > effort to advise those "stock-punters" not to > speculate but to invest on long term basis, is a > right effort (instead of changing my profession, > running away from realty) Stock market is good place > to experience/realise the dhamma. > From books and from personal observations, I thus > realise that the teachings of Buddha is very true > and applicable to our daily life. As an "amateur" on Buddhist doctrine, I am always thinking on the fast tracts of the modern life. Many people haven´t time to think about your own lives, to read good books, to meditate. Stock Matket is the chaos of unbalanced impulses, of greed and bad feelings about money... so the fainty light started by you with a good counsel or a warm and polite word makes room for a better feeling, a better thinking, a rising of good Dhamma. And that´s one of the good remarks of the Abhidhamma Pali version I´ve read: from Dhammasanganipali to Puggalapannattipitti the Doctrine is reducted at this very ground of reasoning... a harsh exercise to my brain, that sometimes gets some passages of The Lotus Sutra to feel better! But I repute the Abhidhamma´s doctrine The Best for modern life,if one manages to penetrate its concepts, how Citta and The Cetasikas are going to mingled together to build reality and the ways that our ordinary lives seems to be a question of Dhamma as the sum up of Manas and Rupa. A very interesting study! > > Regarding the to topic of chanting, I rely mainly on > secondary sources.My discussions with the class was > fruitful. Last night after the sutra discussion > class, one member told me an interesting incidence > that happened during a chanting session held on > previous Tuesday. He said he could "feel" the > presence of unseen beings (obviously the petas) in > the chanting hall. It is possible as our temple is > side-by-side with the cementary. There must be lots > of petas around the temple! Oh well... Their presence is to > wish to have some of merits ( it is our practice to > share merits after the chanting) , I think. Another > incidence was told by a yogi (very often we conduct > meditation retreat in the temple, and yogi would > spend some nights there) . He had a dream one night. > A "being" told not to worry as "he" only come to > visit the temple, not to harm the yogi ! > For those who have the aforesaid experiences, they > have developed a strong faith in chanting and > transference of merits to petas. The power and > benefits derive from chanting are thus NO nonsense ! Good for the peta... good for you and all living beings!!! > > I wish to share my above experience with everyone in > the group. > SADHU ! SADHU ! SADHU ! Keep boosting!!! > > p/s sorry to Rob Moult, I have been absent from > his sunday abhidhamma class ever since our beginners > class started. I am still reading his abhidhamma > book, a very excellent copy. Best studies!!! Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23642 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) > I think you are meaning that chanda (desire/wish to > do) and cetana > (intention) can be wholesome/skillful or > unwholesome/unskillful. If so, I > agree with this. (They can also accompany vipaka > (result) consciousness > and kiriya (inoperative) consciousness. If I´ve read correctly the text, I think so. > > However, whenever they arise they are one of these > at the time, rather > than ‘neutral’. I don’t think we can just say that > this nature or jati is > determined by the object either. There are four types of Arupajhana (Functional consciousness): at first three kinds:pleasurable, painful, and that which is neither pleasurable nor painful. Or, again, it is five-fold, namely, happiness, pain, pleasure, displeasure, and indifference or equanimity. Of all them,the resultant body-consciousness (moral, in opposition of immoral resultant)is the only one accompanied by happiness. For example, > visible object or thinking > or other objects can be experienced with unwholesome > desire (attachment > and akusala chanda) or with detachment and wholesome > chanda, even with > right understanding and right effort as in your > example. In this case, immoral resultant body-consciousness is the only one accompanied by pain. About pleasure, there are sixty-two kinds of consciousness accompanied by pleasure, namely: a. the eighteen types of sense-sphere consciousness, such as four rooted in attachment, twelve types of sense-sphere Beautiful consciousness, the two types of investigating and smiling consciousness, b. fourty-four types of Sublime and Supramundane consciousness pertaining to the first second, third, and fourth Jhanas. (12+32). Only the two types of consciousness connected with aversion are accompained by displeasure. Gosh!!! I think that´s right! Metta, Ícarvs 23643 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 For myself, I hope > that in some future > life I too will be able to exemplify that bhikkhu. Keep your mind on. We are living at an age that such efforts towards mindfullness are accomplished on more easily today than at past: more books, more teachers, more practitioners, more free time and more resources to bear us on the path. "...by leading a secluded life, dilligently, energetically and with a resolute will, in a short time he understood, experienced and attained that high perfection of a noble life..." ( Sabhiya Sutta, Sutta Nipata, Mahavagga, 6) Ícarvs > > Best wishes, > Jim ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23644 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:09pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga, The Path of Purification Hello Peter, The first 90 pages of 834 pages of The Visuddhi Magga - The Path of Purification by Bhadantacariya Buddhaghosa Translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Nanamoli are available at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/visuddhimagga-1.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vajramantra" wrote: > Dear all, > > Does anyone know where the above mentioned work can be downloaded > from? > > Thanks, > > Peter 23645 From: Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 3:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, The Path of Purification Hi Peter and all, "The Path of Purification" can be bought at a bookstore that sells BPS publications or here: http://www.pariyatti.com/frontpage.htm Maybe someone can post a source for Asia, Australia, & Europe. Larry 23646 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 3:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 If any of you are interested in having the Pali text of Vism. XIV.1-32 in a plain text format (15K), you can download zvis14a.txt from the DSG files folder (it's right at the bottom). It is copied from the Burmese CSCD disk and converted to the Velthuis scheme (no special font required). To make it more useful I have changed the section numbers to match those in ~Naa.namoli's translation. It's better to read it in a word processor as the lines probably won't wrap on your browser. Just save to disk after downloading. Jim 23647 From: Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Larry: "Would someone like to say a few words on this sentence: "And that [consciousness] has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits."" Hi Larry The 5 benefits of developed concentration are: 1. For arahants, a blissful abiding here and now. 2. For ordinary people and Trainers it is the proximate cause of insight. 3. It is the proximate cause of "direct knowledge". 4. For ordinary people rebirth in the Brahma world. 5. For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana). [Trainer = sekha, stream enterer, once returner, non-returner] "Direct knowledge" is B. Nyanamoli's translation of abhi~n~naa. To my mind this is a little misleading as I tend to think of direct knowledge as knowledge of realities unmediated by conventional concepts. In a sense, that is the case here as well, but it is a highly technical sense. Abhi is the same abhi that is in abhidhamma and is very similar to the para of paramattha. So it literally means advanced knowledge or mastery. In this context it refers to transcendental knowledge in that it is kowledge that goes beyond ordinary experience and conventional physics. Here is Nyanatiloka's definition of the 6 abhinnas: abhiññá: The 6 'higher powers', or supernormal knowledge's, consist of 5 mundane (lokiya, q.v.) powers attainable through the utmost perfection in mental concentration (samádhi, q.v.) and one supermundane (lokuttara, q.v.) power attainable through penetrating insight (vipassaná, q.v.), i.e. extinction of all cankers (ásavakkhaya; s. ásava), in other words, realization of Arahatship or Holiness. They are: (1) magical powers (iddhi-vidha), (2) divine ear (dibba-sota), (3) penetration of the minds of others (ceto-pariya-ñána), (4) remembrance of former existences (pubbe-nivásánussati), (5) divine eye (dibba-cakkhu), (6) extinction of all cankers (ásavakkhaya). L: Neither the 6 abhinnas nor full mastery of jhana are necessary for the arising of understanding (panna) but at least access concentration is necessary. Larry 23648 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Icarus, Many thanks for your message (to me?) on this thread which I'll look at more carefully as I'm about to dash out now. I can see you've studied a lot of dhamma and I'm appreciating all your comments on various threads. Can I just ask you a couple of favours in the meantime? Would you kindly clarify who you are addressing at the top of your messages in future, so that everyone can see at a glance whose message you are responding to or are considering. Also, we all love to hear a little about any new members (especially active posting ones like yourself). Where do you live and can you tell us anything about your Buddhist studies or background? Look forward to chatting more to you very much. Meanwhile, I'm glad you're finding yourself so at home on DSG - a big welcome to you and any other new members. Must dash Metta, Sarah p.s we appreciate any trimming of tails of old posts;-) ====================================================== 23649 From: Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:11pm Subject: concentration and tranquility Hi all, Anyone have any ideas on why neither of the 2 tranquility cetasikas are not jhana factors? In anapanasati there is tranquilizing of the breath in order to tranquilize the mind but the tranquility cetasikas relate directly to mental factors rather than rupa. Is "tranquility" just a conventional euphemism for concentration? I assume all 19 "Beautiful Universal" cetasikas are part of the background of all jhana states just because they are universals. Larry FYI 19 Beautiful Universal cetasikas: faith, mindfulness, shame, fear of wrong, non-greed, non-hatred, neutrality of mind, tranquility of mental body, tranquility of consciousness, lightness of mental body, lightness of consciousness, malleability of mental body, malleability of consciousness, weildiness of mental body, wieldiness of consciousness, proficiency of mental body, proficiency of consciousness, rectitude of mental body, rectitude of consciousness 23650 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:20pm Subject: Re: chanting and transference of merits to petas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, bodhi dhamma wrote: > sorry for my late response as I am busy with the works. > The recent upsurge in regional stock market really make me a busy man > from 9 to 5 ( I work as a stock dealer with three telephones on my desk ). > > In a crazy stock market, I use to see greedy punters chasing after illusions. They ignorantly/blindly believe that a particular stock may increase in price overnight,.Very often they listen to rumours, hearsay......etc. without a slight use of their own wisdom. They are so naiive that they believe money can easily fall from the sky into their own pocket, just like that.It is true that people are still full of greed and are ignorant. > > The punters are not aware of the impermenance of joy when they make some money from their gamble (they turn the purportedly investment market into a casino).In fact the market situation itself is impermanence and is unpredictable. One moment of joy often turns into dukkha ! I always see people disappear from the market after that, many of them run away from the family, the creditors, bankers ...etc. What a sorrowful life for them ( many of the still owe me substantial sum) as a result of greed , craving and ignorance. > > Sometime I regret of having a "wrong livelihood". but after reading Rob"s > "right effort",. I began to realise that my past effort to advise those "stock-punters" not to speculate but to invest on long term basis, is a right effort (instead of changing my profession, running away from realty) Stock market is good place to experience/realise the dhamma. > From books and from personal observations, I thus realise that the teachings of Buddha is very true and applicable to our daily life. > > _______________ Dear bodhi dhamma, Thanks for your letter. I dabble in stocks and futures - not very successfully- from time to time. It is daily life as you say. I also find it is very much a time to learn about ones desires and fears with regard to money. robertK 23651 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:52pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Rob, Thank you for your reply! I am glad that you find Thana Sutta helpful. The original question is How is one to differentiate kusala kamma from pleasant sense pleasures,ie, mental pleasures. I see the question as: How is one to differentiate wholesome action from pleasant feeling? I would say that one needs to understand what action is and what feeling is to differentiate wholesome action from pleasant feeling. What is action/kamma? As the Buddha taught: Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an06-063.html#5 What is the wholesome (kamma)? "And what is the wholesome? Abstention from killing living beings is wholesome; abstention from taking what is not given is wholesome; abstention from misconduct in sensual pleasures is wholesome; abstention from false speech is wholesome; abstention from malicious speech is wholesome; abstention from harsh speech is wholesome; abstention from gossip is wholesome; non-covetousness is wholesome; non-ill will is wholesome; right view is wholesome. This is called the wholesome. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn009.html The Buddhat explained what feeling is: "And what is feeling? These six are classes of feeling: feeling born from eye-contact, feeling born from ear-contact, feeling born from nose-contact, feeling born from tongue-contact, feeling born from body-contact, feeling born from intellect-contact. This is called feeling. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-002.html Regarding pleasant feeling: Dependent on a sense-impression that is liable to be felt as pleasurable, there arises a pleasant feeling. When that very sense- impression liable to be felt as pleasurable has ceased, then the sensation born from it[1] -- namely the pleasant feeling that arose dependent on that sense-impression -- also ceases and is stilled. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn36-010.html Understanding what action/kamma is and what feeling is would help one differentiate wholesome action from pleasant feeling. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Victor, > [snip] > Metta, > Rob M :-) 23652 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. we and us. Dear Mike, op 21-07-2003 22:18 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > I know it's often a fine line to tread > between vohaara- and paramattha-vacana. But I THINK that the idea that 'I > can develop satipatthaana' is a dangerous obstacle to the the arising of > satipatthaana--or maybe not? N: Yes, we are full of the idea of self, it is always latent and can condition wrong thinking. Even when breathing in and out, is there not sometimes an idea of I am breathing, even when not thinking in words about it? In Thai the word for we, raw, does not have to be used, there is less use of personal pronoun. When the reader understands the context and the explanation, there is less danger in using the word we. I appreciate Jon's reminder: < As I see it, when there is the specific intention to 'be more patient/tolerant', 'show more generosity', 'have more awareness', 'study realties' or the like, it is not the same as an opportunity that occurs unbidden.> An unbidden opportunity, you do not expect it to happen, but sati can arise. Good to discuss these things. And now another subject: Lodewijk said again today to me, be careful when using the words conditions, accumulations. We may use them too easily, and, he said, we can make others puzzled or irritated. He himself tends to get panicky sometimes when hearing these words, he feels a lack of understanding. This is really food for thought, is there perhaps another way we can explain these things? Nina. 23653 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration. Dear Larry, op 25-07-2003 07:09 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: However I disagree here: > > Nina: "I do not look for a proximate cause of a proximate cause." > > L: This is the paticcasamuppada method, to analyze backward thru > proximate causes to see where a process came from and how it works. N: proximate cause is not the same. We read about proximate causes for the different cetasikas, and this is a subject different from the paticcasamuppada. L: Vism XI, 121: When ordinary people and Trainers develop it > [concentration] thinking 'After emerging we shall exercize insight with > concentrated consciousness', the development of absorption concentration > provides them with the benefit of insight by serving as the proximate > cause for insight, and so too does access concentration as a method of > arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances]. Hence the > Blessed One said: 'Bhikkhus, develop concentration; a bhikkhu who is > concentrated understands correctly' (S. iii, 13). N: We also have to take into account that only those who are highly skilled and have the masteries of jhana, vasi, can use jhana as proximate cause for insight. I am afraid people may not realize what it means to have masteries in jhana: going from one jhana to a higher or a lower one, emerging from it or entering it whenever they want to. And as said, very few can attain jhana, let alone have masteries of jhana. Thus, this text is true, but can be applied by only very few people. Thanks to your quote I can understand this text now much better than before. Nina. 23654 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Dear Icaro, op 25-07-2003 18:48 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Keep your mind on. We are living at an age that > such efforts towards mindfullness are accomplished on > more easily today than at past: more books, more > teachers, more practitioners, more free time and more > resources to bear us on the path. N: But inspite of this, we are further away from the Buddha's time. In this world now, there are no longer arahats (see commentaries). And, as I said to Larry, jhana is extremely difficult, and even more so the masteries (vasis) of jhana, and without these no way to have jhana as a base for insight. And the right conditions for jhana: a secluded life, away from sense pleasures, rebirth-consciousness which is tihetuka, accompanied by panna. But what can be done: development of insight now in daily life. Jhana is not necessary to attain enlightenment, one can become sukkha vipassaka, with dry insight. Nina. 23655 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:53pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga, The Path of Purification Hello Peter, Larry and all, The back of my copy says: "Reprinted and donated for free distribution by The Corporate Body of the Buddha Eductional Foundation 11F, 55 Hang Chow South Road Sec 1, Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C. Tel. 886-2-23951198, Fax: 886-2-23913415 Email: overseas@b... Website: http://www.budaedu.org.tw (seems to be only in chinese) This book is strictly for free distribution, it is not to be sold. Might be worth contacting them by email or fax. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23656 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 11:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, The Path of Purification Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > The back of my copy says: > "Reprinted and donated for free distribution by > The Corporate Body of the Buddha Eductional Foundation > 11F, 55 Hang Chow South Road Sec 1, Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C. > Tel. 886-2-23951198, Fax: 886-2-23913415 > Email: overseas@b... > Website: http://www.budaedu.org.tw (seems to be only in chinese) > This book is strictly for free distribution, it is not to be sold. ..... Your note just reminded me that a member of this Foundation in Taipei wrote to DSG a couple of years ago - the following information should be helpful - I note that at that time they had 3000 copies of this text (see ***** below)available for distribution. If anyone gets a response, perhaps they'd share it with the list. Otherwise the (new) soft cover copies from the Pariyatti website Larry gave the link for are quite reasonably priced these days and the delivery to Asia is very fast. Metta, Sarah ====== http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m1446.html --- gaopeng@m... wrote: > Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:31:35 -0000 Subject: Re: send me book [The Corporate Body of The > Buddha Educational Foundation > > > 2) Buddha Education Foundation > > 11F, 55 Hangchow South Road, Sec 1 > > Taipei > > TAIWAN - R.O.C. > > The Corporate Body of The Buddha Educational > Foundation, > 11F, #55, Sec. 1, Hang-Chow S. Rd., > 100, Taipei, Taiwan > TEL: +886-2-2395-1198 > FAX: +886-2-2391-3415 > > The above website just established its website last > year [ 1st Dec > 2000 ] here : [ But it is written in Chinese > language :-)] > http://www.budaedu.org.tw/ > > You could surf this website for the catalogue of the > dhamma books free > for distribution which are currently available: > > http://www.budaedu.org.tw/books/#foreign > > [I direct translated from the above website how to > request the dhamma > books as it is only written in chinese :-)] > ================================================= > How to request the dhamma books : > [1] You are welcome to request either through > phone, fax, snail mail > or email. > [2] In order to post the requested dhamma books to > you, please write > your mail address clearly with the relevent > postcode. > [3] In order the dhamma books can be easily > accessible to all the > people, all the dhamma books here are for FREE > distribution. In order > the dhamma books can be equally distributed to the > needed ones, please > request the exact amount of the books that you > really need. The > availability of the dhamma books depends on the > availability of the > stock left. > [4]There is some very few limited items left which > are not listed in > the above website due to the small amount stock > left, this are > reserved for those right ones to request, so it is > not convinience to > list this items publicly, if you really need this > not listed items, > you are welcome to request through phone, fax, post > or email to ask > for further information. > [5] When you reqesting through email , please take > note: > [a] for tradition chinese characters dhamma > books, please write to > domestic@b... [domestic@ budaedu.org.tw ] > [b] for simplified chinese characters dhamma > books, please write > to mainland@b... [mainland@ > budaedu.org.tw ] > [c] apart from the above [a] & [b] for foreign > language [english, > sri lanka, vietname etc] dhamma books , please write > to > overseas@b... [overseas@ budaedu.org.tw > ] > ==================================================== > > Normally the catalogue of the dhamma books available > are updated in a > monthly basis. Below are some of the foreign > language books currently > available I took from the above website as some of > the term are > written in chinese: > > Foreign Language Dhamma Books (Updated : > 2001.May.01.) > > Book Name {Author} [Language] (Printed > Amount/units) > > -DHAMMA VIVIENTE DHAMMA>{Ven. Ajahn > Chan}[Spanish] (10,000 units) > > -BUDDHISM IN A NUTSHELL {Ven.NANDA} [English] (5,000 > units) > -THE BUDDHA'S ANCENT PATH [English] (5,000 units) > -MAY FLOWER II [English] (5,000 units) > -Pure-Land Zen , Zen Pure-Land [English] (5,000 > units) > -BUDDHISM OF WISDOM & FAITH [English] (5,000 units) *****> -THE PATH OF PURIFICATION [English] (3,000 units)***** > -BUDDHISM AS AN EDUCATION [English] (5,000 units) > -THE WAY IT IS [English] (5,000 units) > -THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTH [English] (4,000 units) > -BUDDHISM: THE WISDOM OF COMPASSION AND AWAKENING > [English] (10,000 > units) > -TO UNDERSTAND BUDDHISM [English] (10,000 units) > -AN ELEMENTARY PALI COURSE [English] (2,000 units) > -On Amidism,To Be Born in a Lotus,A Buddhist Goal > that can be > [English] (4,000 units) > -EMPTY CLOUD: THE TEACHINGS OF XU YUN AND A > REMEMBRANCE OF THE GREAT > CHINESE ZEN MASTER [English] (4,000 units) > -THE SUTRA OF BODHISATTYA KSITIGARBHA'S FUNDAMENTAL > VOWS [English] > (5,000 units) > -THUS HAVE I HEARD [English] (5,000 units) > -CHANGING DESTINY [English] (10,000 units) > -VIPASSANA MEDITATION [German] > -VINAYA TIPITAKA [India Language] {3,000 units) > -WHY MEDITATION [India Language/Dialect Marathi] > -MINDFULNESS:THE PATH TO THE DEATH [Italy Language] > (10,000 units) > -THE FIELD OF MERIT [Loas Language] [10,000 units] > -THE PATH OF PURIFICATION [Sri Lanka Pali Language] > (5,000 units) > -COMMENTARY ON THE PATH OF PURIFICATION [sri Lanka > Language] (5,000 > units) > -BUDDHISM: ETT LEVANDE BUDSKAP [Sweden Language] > (10,000 units) > 10,000 23657 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:49pm Subject: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Sarah: " Also, we all love to hear a little about any new members (especially > active posting ones like yourself). Where do you live and can you tell us > anything about your Buddhist studies or background?" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Sarah! I am brazillian, living at Rio de Janeiro City. Presently my occupation is as Mechanical Engineer, with MSc in Robotic and Automation, assigned at Brazillian´s Air Force. My interest on Buddhism is deeply grounded in my teens - when I was a compulsive reader of all matters of the Doctrine of Buddha and about Oriental culture as a whole. The Practice of Yoga, meditation and sports had preserved me to become the typical nerd... And now, with some free time to spend at my will, I am reading and studying on The Abhidhamma, the "Crême de la crême" of the Buddha´s Pali Canon. I´m fascinated by its concise reasonings and profundity ! It´s the summit of all Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Look forward to chatting more to you very much. Meanwhile, I'm glad you're > finding yourself so at home on DSG - a big welcome to you and any other > new members. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There´s a lot goin´on !!! Metta, Ícarvs 23658 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Larry My apologies for being slow in getting back with a response (so slow that you felt compelled to answer your own post!). First, I give the passage exactly as it appears in TPOP: "And that has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits described [in Chs. XII and XIII]." I read 'that' as referring to 'concentration' (samadhi) -- see Note 1 below. My attempted 'brief elucidation', as requested, is as follows: The advanced development of concentration/samadhi involves the development of the 5 mundane 'direct-knowledges'/abhinnas (and this is the farthest that the development of concentration can be taken). Notes: 1. In the overall scheme of the Vism, 'consciousness' means 'concentration' -- see the beginning of this whole passage as quoted in your earlier post which reads: See also I, 7, 9-14. 2. What is described in Chs. XII and XIII is the 5 mundane abhinnas; only these, and not the 6th (supramundane) abhinna, are included in aspects of the development of concentration. See XII, 2 - XIII, 101 and the summary at XXIII 102-129. I hope this is clear. Questions/comments welcome. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I was hoping someone would briefly elucidate this sentence for the > benefit of those who don't have the book or are too lazy to look up > the answer. Would you care to give it a shot? > > Larry > --------------------- > > "And that [consciousness] has been developed in all its aspects by > the > bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of > concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the > benefits." 23659 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Larry Many thanks for this summary of the 5 benefits of the development of concentration given at XI, 120-125. I would like to add 1 or 2 further comments to your summaries, especially for those who do not have access to the actual text (warning: some points might be controversial ;-)). "1. For arahants, a blissful abiding here and now." Yes, for those who are already arahants and who develop absorption concentration with that purpose (i.e., entering into blissful abiding for extended periods) in mind. See XXI, 120: "For the development of absorption concentration provides the benefit of a blissful abiding here and now for the Arahants with cankers destroyed who develop concentration thinking 'We shall attain and dwell with unified mind for a whole day'. (Note the implication here that attainment of arahantship is possible without concentration having been developed to the degree of absorption.) "2. For ordinary people and Trainers it is the proximate cause of insight." Yes, the development of both absorption concentration and access concentration provide this benefit for such people who aspire to *enlightenment with concentration as basis*. See the full text of XI, 121. (Note again the implication of the attainment of stream-entry without concentration having necesarily been developed to the degree of either access or absorption). "3. It is the proximate cause of "direct knowledge"." Yes, for those who aspire to the mundane abhinnas with jhana as basis. XI, 122. "4. For ordinary people rebirth in the Brahma world." Yes, for such people who have not lost their jhana and who aspire to rebirth in the Brahma-world. XI, 123. "5. For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana)." For 'noble ones' (see XII, 124) who aspire to nirodha-samapatti, it may serve as the basis for that attainment. I believe the reference to 'noble ones' here is a reference to anagami's and arahants (i.e., not exactly the same class as 'Trainers'). This passage on the benefits of developing concentration is a very interesting one, and like much of the Vism is packed full of meaning. Happy to discuss further. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: ... > The 5 benefits of developed concentration are: > > 1. For arahants, a blissful abiding here and now. > > 2. For ordinary people and Trainers it is the proximate cause of > insight. > > 3. It is the proximate cause of "direct knowledge". > > 4. For ordinary people rebirth in the Brahma world. > > 5. For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana). > > [Trainer = sekha, stream enterer, once returner, non-returner] 23660 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Jim and Nina Jim, many thanks for your contributions so far on this project. It has been very useful having your input. There are a number of passages in Vism that are relevant to the thread you two are discussing here. I hope you don't mind me butting in with one such set of references. III, 5 '(iv) How many kinds of concentration are there? ... (3) [Concentration is] likewise [of two kinds] as mundane and supramundane,' ... III, 7 '3. Mundane concentration is profitable unification of mind in the three planes. Supramundane concentration is the unification associated with the noble paths.' III, 27 '(v) How should it be developed? 'The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with the noble paths mentioned (# 7) under that 'of two kinds as mundane and supramundane', etc., is included in the method of developing understanding (Ch. XXII); for in developing [path] understanding that is developed too. So we shall say nothing separately [here] about how that is to be developed. 'But mundane concentration should be developed by one who has already taken his stand on virtue ...' I've no doubt there are other passages we shall come across from time to time. I'm fully aware that no single passage is conclusive on this issue. It will be interesting to consider at a later stage everything we come up with during this study. Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Nina, ... > Thank-you for your comments and I agree with much of what you say > here. The Vism describes the threefold training in a particular > order > and that is something to keep in mind when considering how one goes > about developing the path. The way in which this hypothetical > bhikkhu > has practised serves as an excellent example even if one does not > yet > have the accumulations to carry it out in the same way during one's > current existence. But, nevertheless, it remains a possibility in > some > future existence when the conditions are ripe. During the meantime > one can continue to develop understanding at the theoretical level > (sutamaya) and to work on the problem of how to put into practice > what one has learnt from the texts. For myself, I hope that in some > future life I too will be able to exemplify that bhikkhu. > > Best wishes, > Jim 23661 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. we and us. Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. we and us. > I appreciate Jon's reminder: < As I see it, when there is the specific > intention to 'be more > patient/tolerant', 'show more generosity', 'have more awareness', > 'study realties' or the like, it is not the same as an opportunity > that occurs unbidden.> I agree--the former is a little like a topical application and the latter systemic, I think. > An unbidden opportunity, you do not expect it to happen, but sati can arise. > Good to discuss these things. > And now another subject: Lodewijk said again today to me, be careful when > using the words conditions, accumulations. We may use them too easily, and, > he said, we can make others puzzled or irritated. He himself tends to get > panicky sometimes when hearing these words, he feels a lack of > understanding. This is really food for thought, is there perhaps another way > we can explain these things? I think Lodewijk's right--people who haven't read, for example, Robert's recent post* and are unaware of the use of 'aayuuhana' in the tipitaka can be suspicious of a lot of emphasis on 'accumulations' (I used to be). For those who know some Dhamma this can be pointed out. For others (in some contexts) it's easy enough to see that proclivities or habitual tendencies do accumulate as the result of repeated volitional thoughts, speech and actions. 'Conditions' are a lot more complicated. On either topic, thought, I think it's important to tailor speech to suit the hearer as much as that's possible--easy to be off-putting, I think. mike *Here is a section from the Mahanidana sutta commentary, where aayuuhana (accumulate) occurs in complex phrases (from Bodhi, 'The Great Discourse on Causation', p 65) about Pa.ticcasamuppaadda: "Deep is the meaning of volitional formations as volitionally forming, ACCUMULATING, lustfulness, and lustlessness." ("Gambhiiro, saòkhaaraana.m abhisaòkhara.nAAYUUHANAsaraagaviraaga.t.tho.") ".and [the meaning] of existence as ACCUMULATING, volitionally forming, and throwing beings into the different modes of origin" (".bhavassa AAYUUHANAAbhisaòkhara.nayo nigati.thitinivaasesu khipana.t.tho") It is an important aspect of Dhamma that is mentioned quite often in the texts. We shouldn't expect it to be easy to understand: "Deep is the meaning of volitional formations as volitionally forming, ACCUMULATING." Robert Kirkpatrick 23662 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Dear Nina: --- nina van gorkom wrote: Nina:" as I said to > Larry, jhana is extremely difficult, and even more > so the masteries (vasis) > of jhana, and without these no way to have jhana as > a base for insight. And > the right conditions for jhana: a secluded life, > away from sense pleasures, > rebirth-consciousness which is tihetuka, accompanied > by panna." ------------------------------------------------------- Nina, I´ve heard about these remarks at discussions groups in india, stated on mainly by jainists: they do affirm that we are living presently at a Descendent Cycle of Dhamma, that such efforts towards Nibbana by the classical jhanas would be fruitless. Anyway, there is no more Arahats (Arihantas, as the jainists usually say) on modern world... ------------------------------------------------------- But what can > be done: development of insight now in daily life. > Jhana is not necessary to > attain enlightenment, one can become sukkha > vipassaka, with dry insight. ------------------------------------------------------- That sounds good. As many Bhikkus say, "Vipassana IS Abhidhamma"...and I am trying to be a fair sukkha vipassaka! Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23663 From: Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 3:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Hi, Jon (and Larry) - In a message dated 7/26/03 5:34:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Larry > > Many thanks for this summary of the 5 benefits of the development of > concentration given at XI, 120-125. I would like to add 1 or 2 > further comments to your summaries, especially for those who do not > have access to the actual text (warning: some points might be > controversial ;-)). > > "1. For arahants, a blissful abiding here and now." > Yes, for those who are already arahants and who develop absorption > concentration with that purpose (i.e., entering into blissful abiding > for extended periods) in mind. See XXI, 120: "For the development of > absorption concentration provides the benefit of a blissful abiding > here and now for the Arahants with cankers destroyed who develop > concentration thinking 'We shall attain and dwell with unified mind > for a whole day'. (Note the implication here that attainment of > arahantship is possible without concentration having been developed > to the degree of absorption.) > > "2. For ordinary people and Trainers it is the proximate cause of > insight." > Yes, the development of both absorption concentration and access > concentration provide this benefit for such people who aspire to > *enlightenment with concentration as basis*. See the full text of > XI, 121. (Note again the implication of the attainment of > stream-entry without concentration having necesarily been developed > to the degree of either access or absorption). > > "3. It is the proximate cause of "direct knowledge"." > Yes, for those who aspire to the mundane abhinnas with jhana as > basis. XI, 122. > > "4. For ordinary people rebirth in the Brahma world." > Yes, for such people who have not lost their jhana and who aspire to > rebirth in the Brahma-world. XI, 123. > > "5. For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana)." > For 'noble ones' (see XII, 124) who aspire to nirodha-samapatti, it > may serve as the basis for that attainment. I believe the reference > to 'noble ones' here is a reference to anagami's and arahants (i.e., > not exactly the same class as 'Trainers'). > > This passage on the benefits of developing concentration is a very > interesting one, and like much of the Vism is packed full of meaning. > Happy to discuss further. > > Jon > > ========================== In the preceding, the quoted material is the following: o For arahants, a blissful abiding here and now... For the development of absorption concentration provides the benefit of a blissful abiding here and now for the Arahants with cankers destroyed who develop concentration thinking 'We shall attain and dwell with unified mind for a whole day'. o For ordinary people and Trainers it is the proximate cause of insight. o It is the proximate cause of "direct knowledge" o For ordinary people rebirth in the Brahma world. o For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana). These show concentration as a factor leading to liberation, and, in a lesser role, leading to pleasant realms of existence for worldings and of "daily vacations" for arahants. The thrust of all this, it seems to me, whether the level of concentration needs to be jhanic or not [Nowhere have I come across access concentration mentioned in the suttas; is it mentioned in the Abhidhamma Pitaka?], is the extreme importance, even centrality, of the development of concentration for one following the Buddha's training. Why do you feel compelled, in each case, to look for a meaning different from the straightforward one? ;-) In the 1st item, there is no implication that "attainment of arahantship is possible without concentration having been developed to the degree of absorption." It's just not in the material, Jon. In the second item, there is no "implication of the attainment of stream-entry without concentration having necesarily been developed to the degree of either access or absorption." None at all. The second item is very clear: For everyone following the Buddha's training, whether worldling or not, concentration is the proximate cause for insight. That's all it says. Items 3 and 5 also require no disclaimer as far as I can see. I am perplexed, Jon, at your "unhappiness" with both (mundane) Right Concentration and Right Effort. The Buddha repeatedly extolled both of these, and instructed his followers to pursue them. Why treat them as second class? With metta, Howard P.S. On a separate issue, with regard to item #1, I have never understood why an arahant would need a "blissful abiding here and now." A living arahant is already supposedly beyond dukkha, beyond craving and aversion. He/she is free. Why the need for a "vacation"? /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23664 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Hi Howard and Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) > P.S. On a separate issue, with regard to item #1, I have never understood why > an arahant would need a "blissful abiding here and now." A living arahant is > already supposedly beyond dukkha, beyond craving and aversion. He/she is free. > Why the need for a "vacation"? I've always found this interesting, too--it's clear from the suttas that the Buddha often took such 'breaks'. In some cases it's specifically mentioned that he did so for relief from pain from his old back injuries (sorry, no citations off-hand). The closest I've ever come to a tentative conclusion is that the dukkha that ends with nibbaana isn't synonymous with pain and that enduring pain unnecessarily is an extreme (cf. using food to ward off hunger pains or cloths to ward off bugs, etc.). So even with no aversion to pain, the arahant still doesn't endure it unnecessarily, maybe? I'd like to hear more about this. It seems evident from Jon's and Larry's excerpts that "blissful abiding here and now" is only for arahants. I've often used it to refer to mundane jhaana. Are there no references to this for ordinary people? As for 'rebirth in the brahma-world' could this ever refer to momentary (kha.nika) rebirth? The descriptions in the suttas of the cultivation of the brahma-vihaaras has always sounded a lot like a "blissful abiding here and now" to me. mike 23665 From: Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Hi, Mike (and Jon) - In a message dated 7/26/03 11:23:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > > Hi Howard and Jon, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 7:47 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, > 1) > > >P.S. On a separate issue, with regard to item #1, I have never understood > why > >an arahant would need a "blissful abiding here and now." A living arahant > is > >already supposedly beyond dukkha, beyond craving and aversion. He/she is > free. > >Why the need for a "vacation"? > > I've always found this interesting, too--it's clear from the suttas that the > Buddha often took such 'breaks'. In some cases it's specifically mentioned > that he did so for relief from pain from his old back injuries (sorry, no > citations off-hand). The closest I've ever come to a tentative conclusion > is that the dukkha that ends with nibbaana isn't synonymous with pain and > that enduring pain unnecessarily is an extreme (cf. using food to ward off > hunger pains or cloths to ward off bugs, etc.). So even with no aversion to > pain, the arahant still doesn't endure it unnecessarily, maybe? I'd like to > hear more about this. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm. Here is the core of the matter. Yes, a Buddha would still have physical pain - that is, unpleasant "taste" of certain bodily sensations. But there should be no mental pain, no aversion to the unpleasantness or the unpleasant sensations, no dukkha. He/she shouldn't "mind" the physical pain. Is it possibly just that the pain weakens the body, making his activities less effective, and the taking of a respite is merely a pragmatic move? If pain is to be "endured" in the emotional sense, that already implies dislike of the pain, as I understand it. Of course, if to "endure" the pain only means to put up with the limitations on activity imposed by it and does not indicate a struggling, then there is no problem with saying "endure". ----------------------------------------------------- > > It seems evident from Jon's and Larry's excerpts that "blissful abiding here > and now" is only for arahants. I've often used it to refer to mundane > jhaana. Are there no references to this for ordinary people? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm sure that I've read the Buddha instructing his followers in general to use the jhanas as a "blissful abiding here and now." -------------------------------------------------- As for> > 'rebirth in the brahma-world' could this ever refer to momentary (kha.nika) > rebirth? The descriptions in the suttas of the cultivation of the > brahma-vihaaras has always sounded a lot like a "blissful abiding here and > now" to me. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Apples and oranges, Mike. The arising of metta, karuna, mudita, and uppekha are in the moment. Existing in the Brahma-world is a conventional event resulting from having attained certain jhanas. This is my understanding. -------------------------------------------------- > > mike > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23666 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > In the preceding, the quoted material is the following: > > o For arahants, a blissful abiding here and now... For the development > of absorption concentration provides the benefit of a blissful abiding here > and now for the Arahants with cankers destroyed who develop concentration > thinking 'We shall attain and dwell with unified mind for a whole day'. > > o For ordinary people and Trainers it is the proximate cause of > insight. > > o It is the proximate cause of "direct knowledge" > > o For ordinary people rebirth in the Brahma world. > > o For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana). > > These show concentration as a factor leading to liberation, and, in a > lesser role, leading to pleasant realms of existence for worldings and of > "daily vacations" for arahants. The thrust of all this, it seems to me, whether > the level of concentration needs to be jhanic or not [Nowhere have I come across > access concentration mentioned in the suttas; is it mentioned in the > Abhidhamma Pitaka?], is the extreme importance, even centrality, of the development of > concentration for one following the Buddha's training. > Why do you feel compelled, in each case, to look for a meaning > different from the straightforward one? ;-) Hi Howard and Jon (and Mike), Howard, I agree with your points. I am not sure what Jon has against concentration practice…I look forward to his reply. Regarding your other question, I am going to disagree with Mike a bit and state that the reason the arahant practices jhana is to escape conceptual thinking, not simply pain. I think we all can agree that conceptual thinking can be a burden and even though the arahant is free from dukkha, he/she can't be free from conceptual thinking except in the midst of jhana (and during the final release of paranibanna, of course). For support of this conclusion, allow me to quote part of the Bodhi Sutta: "I have heard that on one occasion, when the Blessed One was newly Awakened -- staying at Uruvela by the banks of the Nerañjara River in the shade of the Bodhi tree, the tree of Awakening -- he sat in the shade of the Bodhi tree for seven days in one session, sensitive to the bliss of release. At the end of seven days, after emerging from that concentration, in the third watch of the night, he gave close attention to dependent co-arising in forward and reverse order, thus: When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that…" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-03.html You see, the Buddha remained in meditation for seven days even after Enlightenment so that he could be in bliss. However, in order for him to formulate 'the dharma' that he was eventually going to teach to everyone, he had to emerge from that bliss and put his conceptual mind to the situation. I see the jhana practice of an arahant as 'returning to the source'. I guess it is adequate to describe it as a mental vacation…a vacation from conceptual thought. Metta, James 23667 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Dear Larry, op 26-07-2003 00:39 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > L: Neither the 6 abhinnas nor full mastery of jhana are necessary for > the arising of understanding (panna) but at least access concentration > is necessary. N: Why? I have not seen this in the texts of the Tipitaka and commentaries. Also very, very few people can attain access concentration, according to the Vis. We should not underestimate its difficulty. You mentioned before seclusion from the hindrances and I just read something in the Perfections that may be of interest: Nina. 23668 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Could you give me the link to this? Thank you, Nina. op 26-07-2003 00:21 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > If any of you are interested in having the Pali text of Vism. XIV.1-32 > in a plain text format (15K), you can download zvis14a.txt from the > DSG files folder (it's right at the bottom). 23669 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:59am Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Ken, It seems to me that seeing the Buddha's teaching in Thana Sutta as "conventional" led you to the conclusion that his advice is unsatisfactory. And seeing the Buddha's teaching in Thana Sutta as conventional and unsatisfactory, you came up with an interpretation of the four noble truths in connection with your preconception about the discourse. To you, this interpretation is profound and entirely satisfactory. Now, when you say When there is the concept of a course of action (unpleasant or pleasant, profitable or unprofitable), there is, in truth, dukkha. When there is the concept of living being (foolish or wise), there is, in truth, dukkha. The Noble Ones -- the wisest of beings -- directly know that only dhammas are real and that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. do you mean that: "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging- aggregates are dukkha." ? When you say When there is desire to follow one of the four courses of action or when there is desire for existence, then there is the cause of dukkha. do you mean the craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming." ? The Buddha's teaching in Thana Sutta in and of itself is conducive and in connection to the cessation of dukkha. It is not necessary to consider the Buddha's teaching as "conventional" or "concept" or even "ultimate" for that matter. Those preconceptions may be misleading in understanding the Dhamma. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi RobM, Victor and Cetasika, > > I am never confident about the interpretation of suttas and [snip] > > In the Thana Sutta, only concepts are directly referred > to. The conventional advice it contains could be > given by any wise person -- an agricultural scientist, > for example. > > Moreover, the conventional advice is unsatisfactory. We > know from experience, that courses of action are neither > entirely pleasant nor entirely unpleasant. When striving > in the field, we can have pleasant experiences of a cool > breeze and when resting on the verandah, we can be > annoyed by biting insects; there are always moments of > pleasure and pain, however brief. > > The same applies to the profitability and unprofitability > of courses of action; in our world, none of these things > is clear cut and absolute. > > However, the Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths and so, > when he delivered the Thana Sutta, the meaning was > profound and entirely satisfactory -- knowable only to > the wise, unknowable to the fool: > > 1. dukkha > > When there is the concept of a course of action > (unpleasant or pleasant, profitable or unprofitable), > there is, in truth, dukkha. When there is the concept of > living being (foolish or wise), there is, in truth, > dukkha. The Noble Ones -- the wisest of beings -- > directly know that only dhammas are real and that all > conditioned dhammas are dukkha. > > 2. the cause of dukkha > > When there is desire to follow one of the four > courses of action or when there is desire for > existence, then there is the cause of dukkha. > > 3. the cessation of dukkha > > The cessation of desire, and thereby of dukkha, is > Nibbana. > > 4. the path > > The understanding, thought, speech, action, livelihood, > effort, mindfulness and concentration that are unique to > the Noble Ones, lead to Nibbana. > > > Corrections welcome, > Ken H 23670 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 0:34pm Subject: Re: Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) James, I'm just curious. You write: J: "I think we all can agree that conceptual thinking can be a burden and even though the arahant is free from dukkha, he/she can't be free from conceptual thinking except in the midst of jhana (and during the final release of paranibanna, of course)." --> Dan: I agree that conceptual thinking can be a burden, but I understand that it is not a burden for the arahant, who has relinquished burden in the sense you are using it. Also, my understanding is that while vipassana is free from conceptual thinking, jhana is not. Do you have something against conceptual thinking? Dan 23671 From: Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 1:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Hi Jon, Well done. Thanks. I don't have anything further to add. Larry 23672 From: Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 2:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Hi Nina, You asked why I think at least access concentration is necessary for the arising of understanding. The main reason is that I don't see any indication in Visuddhimagga that concentration below this level is capable of being the proximate cause of panna. However, I am not clear at all on what access concentration is. Clearly it is a preliminary to absorption concentration in the practice of jhana, but the phrase, "access concentration as a method of arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances]" in Vism XI, 121 suggests to me that access concentration could arise in ordinary circumstances, while shopping for tomatoes for example. I think that is what you and Jon are proposing but you seem to not want to call it access concentration because of the association with jhana. Is that correct? Larry Vism XI, 121: When ordinary people and Trainers develop it [concentration] thinking 'After emerging we shall exercize insight with concentrated consciousness', the development of absorption concentration provides them with the benefit of insight by serving as the proximate cause for insight, and so too does access concentration as a method of arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances]. Hence the Blessed One said: 'Bhikkhus, develop concentration; a bhikkhu who is concentrated understands correctly' (S. iii, 13). 23673 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 3:56pm Subject: Re: Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > James, I'm just curious. You write: > > J: "I think we all can agree that conceptual thinking can be a burden > and even though the arahant is free from dukkha, he/she can't be free > from conceptual thinking except in the midst of jhana (and during the > final release of paranibanna, of course)." > > --> Dan: I agree that conceptual thinking can be a burden, but I > understand that it is not a burden for the arahant, who has > relinquished burden in the sense you are using it. James: Too many people assume what it is like to be an arahant; and for some reason the assumption is that an arahant is existing in continual bliss. That is not the case as is evidenced by the sutta I quoted. I you have alternative information, please present it; I would be very interested. The arahant has to deal with the same mundane realities that we all have to deal with. Conceptual thinking is a part of samsara, just that fact makes it a burden...arahants carry that burden better than wordlings. Also, my > understanding is that while vipassana is free from conceptual > thinking, jhana is not. James: My understanding is the exact opposite. > > Do you have something against conceptual thinking? James: Not any more than everything else in samsara, I would suppose. But I really don't like it when conceptual thinking (intellectual understanding) becomes a substitute for real understanding (direct understanding); it is very dangerous then. > > Dan Metta, James 23674 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 4:20pm Subject: Useful Knowlege from THE BUDDHA Hi Michael, I hope you don't mind me replying on list to this second message you've sent me off-list: --- "Michael(THE BUDDHA)" wrote: > > Sarah, it appears you study old ways. Changes coming for Buddhism > teachings are/will be available at THE BUDDHA's web > pages--www.geocities.com/Michaelbuddha/techie. Only THE BUDDHA's > livesline was created so someone would learn from/teach the next path to > Enlightenment. ...... Thank you for your concern that I -- and other posters you've contacted from DSG -- are studying ‘old ways’ and not sufficiently appreciating the changes you advocate on your website, which I’m sure we’ve all looked at by now. Perhaps you can clarify on DSG exactly what you think is wrong with the ‘old ways’. According to what I read in the texts, all Buddhas teach exactly the same truths. Do you have any textual reference to suggest otherwise? With metta, Sarah ===== > Sarah wrote:Hi Christine, > ..... > Your note just reminded me that a member of this Foundation in Taipei > wrote to DSG a couple of years ago - the following information should be > helpful - I note that at that time they had 3000 copies of this text > (see > ***** below)available for distribution. > > If anyone gets a response, perhaps they'd share it with the list. > Otherwise the (new) soft cover copies from the Pariyatti website Larry > gave the link for are quite reasonably priced these days <.....> 23675 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Jon, There's one main point I'd like to make about this ongoing controversy concerning the role of jhaana. I know that you and Nina and other followers of K. Sujin often downplay the importance of developing jhaana, in other words, one doesn't need it if one follows the way of the sukkhavipassaka or dry-insight worker. I have no problem with anyone following that way. The problem is how does one know if that is the right way to take up given the particular individual's situation and should a dry-insight worker decree that all should do likewise? After all there are a number of other equally possible approaches, in addition. For myself and at this stage of the game, I simply cannot predetermine exactly how enlightenment will come about for me and for all I know it could be as an insight-worker. I like to keep all my options open and to follow the method in full as laid out in the Visuddhimagga sounds very acceptable even if it's impossible for me to come anywhere near the jhaanas in this lifetime. But that doesn't rule out the possibility that the work I do in this lifetime may help in achieving jhaanic states in some future life. Maybe I'm in for the long haul, at least a 100,000 kalpas. Jim > Jim and Nina > > Jim, many thanks for your contributions so far on this project. It > has been very useful having your input. > > There are a number of passages in Vism that are relevant to the > thread you two are discussing here. I hope you don't mind me butting > in with one such set of references. 23676 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Dear James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > wrote: Dan D: " Also, my > > understanding is that while vipassana is free from > conceptual > > thinking, jhana is not." James: "My understanding is the exact opposite." ------------------------------------------------------- I must agree with James. When one deals with Vipassana, practising it diligently as a sukha vipassaka, The Dhamma becomes as clear as your own efforts and...huh...efficiency afford you to root down your conscience. At least these are my feelings about it when I am reading The Dhammasanganipali, for example... and some Bhikkus make a clear stand about it: Vipassana is Abhidhamma. Jhana is much more elusive to our understanding, and at present Cycle of Dhamma a subject entirely free from conceptual thinking! ------------------------------------------------------- > > Dan D: " Do you have something against conceptual thinking?" > James: "Not any more than everything else in samsara, > I would > suppose. But I really don't like it when conceptual > thinking > (intellectual understanding) becomes a substitute > for real > understanding (direct understanding); it is very > dangerous then." ------------------------------------------------------- Ditto! Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23677 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Useful Knowlege from THE BUDDHA Dear Sara, --- Sarah wrote: Sara: "Thank you for your concern that I -- and other > posters you've contacted > from DSG -- are studying ‘old ways’ and not > sufficiently appreciating the > changes you advocate on your website, which I’m sure > we’ve all looked at > by now. > > Perhaps you can clarify on DSG exactly what you > think is wrong with the > ‘old ways’." ------------------------------------------------------- Sara, Michael - as a self-assigned Buddha - got some original ideas about how to change the bad features of the Universe and a touching, sincere, warm desire to teach the wrongdoers. Please don´t mistake his verve with any lack of Sila! ------------------------------------------------------ Sara: "According to what I read in the texts, all Buddhas > teach exactly the same > truths. Do you have any textual reference to suggest > otherwise?" ------------------------------------------------------- He could dictate his own Suttas! Why not ? metta, Ícarvs > ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23678 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] vipassana and abhidhamma. Hi Icaro, op 26-07-2003 15:05 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > That sounds good. > As many Bhikkus say, "Vipassana IS Abhidhamma"...and > I am trying to be a fair sukkha vipassaka! N: I am glad when people understand this. Many think that Abhidhamma is theory, but it is meant to be applied in life, and therefore one can say, vipassana is the application of the Abhidhamma. Let us discuss more details, looking forward to discussions with you, Nina. 23679 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Howard I suspect there has been a misunderstanding. The five numbered statements that I quoted in my post are Larry's summary of Vism XI, 120-124 dealing with the benefits of the development of concentration. They are not statements taken directly from the text, as you seem to be implying. So although those statements tend to support the view that mundane concentration is a factor leading to liberation, I think this is something that should be considered on the basis of the actual text rather than Larry's summary of it. For example, in the case of Larry's No. 5, I read the text as referring to noble ones (not Trainers) and to the attainment of cessation, i.e., nirodha-samapatti (not the attainment of enlightenment). No problem, of course, just a clarification. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Larry) - ... > ========================== > In the preceding, the quoted material is the following: > > o For arahants, a blissful abiding here and now... For the > development > of absorption concentration provides the benefit of a blissful > abiding here > and now for the Arahants with cankers destroyed who develop > concentration > thinking 'We shall attain and dwell with unified mind for a whole > day'. > > o For ordinary people and Trainers it is the proximate cause > of insight. > > o It is the proximate cause of "direct knowledge" > > o For ordinary people rebirth in the Brahma world. > > o For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana). > > These show concentration as a factor leading to liberation, > and, in a > lesser role, leading to pleasant realms of existence for worldings > and of > "daily vacations" for arahants. The thrust of all this, it seems to > me, whether > the level of concentration needs to be jhanic or not [Nowhere have > I come across > access concentration mentioned in the suttas; is it mentioned in > the > Abhidhamma Pitaka?], is the extreme importance, even centrality, of > the development of > concentration for one following the Buddha's training. > Why do you feel compelled, in each case, to look for a > meaning different from the straightforward one? ;-) 23680 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] vipassana and abhidhamma. Nina: "I am glad when people understand this. Many think that Abhidhamma is > theory, but it is meant to be applied in life, and therefore one can say, > vipassana is the application of the Abhidhamma. > Let us discuss more details, > looking forward to discussions with you, > Nina." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hartelijk dank, Nina! I will be very glad to discuss about Abhidhamma with you, despite the fact that I´ve read only the first chapter of The Dhammasanganipali, and many reviews about the other books of this own Pitaka. The first remark I recall about this great text is its total clearness of teaching: one gets a direct approach at the very structure, the very heart of Dhamma, from Kusala and Akusala to Tika and Duka, and the classification of The Cetasikas: 1. that which arises together with consciousness 2. that which perishes together with consciousness 3. that which has an identical object with consciousness 4. that which has a common basis with consciousness. The EXCELENT works by you, Robmoult and others in these group gave me much to read, think...and write! Tot Straks! Metta, Ícarvs 23681 From: rahula_80 Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:29am Subject: Need to hold on.... Hi, What is the Buddhist response to this situation: "I need someone or something to hold on to. And that "someone" is God. It gave me comfort during trying times etc. Man can't do everything alone...." Thanks, Rahula 23682 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Need to hold on.... Hi Rahula, --- rahula_80 wrote: > Hi, > > What is the Buddhist response to this situation: > > "I need someone or something to hold on to. And that "someone" is > God. It gave me comfort during trying times etc. Man can't do > everything alone...." ..... metta....karuna, upekkha and sati.... Metta, Sarah ======= 23683 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Icaro, --- icarofranca wrote: > Hi Sarah! > I am brazillian, living at Rio de Janeiro City. Presently my > occupation is as Mechanical Engineer, with MSc in Robotic and > Automation, assigned at Brazillian´s Air Force. My interest on > Buddhism is deeply grounded in my teens - when I was a compulsive > reader of all matters of the Doctrine of Buddha and about Oriental > culture as a whole. > The Practice of Yoga, meditation and sports had preserved me to > become the typical nerd... Thanks for your great and colourful intro:-) I know everyone will have been glad to read more about you and will be greatly appreciating your posts and keen interest here. We have another long-term Brazilian member, Leonardo, here. Perhaps one day he’ll pop out of lurk mode to welcome you too. Your work sounds interesting - we don’t have so many mechanical engineers from Brazil’s air-force here and your interests don’t make you sound like a typical nerd at all - (I mean. I do yoga and I’m not a nerd....;-)) > And now, with some free time to spend at my will, I am reading and > studying on The Abhidhamma, the "Crême de la crême" of the Buddha´s > Pali Canon. I´m fascinated by its concise reasonings and profundity ! > It´s the summit of all Dhamma. I couldn’t express my sentiments better.... You’ll find not everyone here shares the same enthusiasm for the Abhidhamma Pitaka however.....;-) > There´s a lot goin´on !!! Thanks to all the contributors and keen interest in the Pali Canon Look forward to reading more of your comments, Metta, Sarah ===== 23684 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:07am Subject: Path condition (was: object condition) Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > You gave me rather more than I could digest concerning Path Condition. > Could you decifer the abbreviations and give a very short explanation of > the Conditioning States and Conditioned states for Path Condition in the > table on p. 311, CMA? Maybe this weekend. No rush. If my previous message was rather more than you could digest, you better get out the antacid now because explaining the entries in Table 8.3 gets quite involved. Table 8.3 if CMA lists the possible conditioning states and the possible conditioned states for each of the twenty-four types of conditions. Note that the conditioning states and the conditioned states must all be paramattha dhammas. Consider the first row of the table. In this row, we are describing the nature of "root condition" (the first of the twenty-four conditions). In order for "root condition" to apply, something has to exist first. The things that have to exist first are the conditioning states. Only when the conditioning states are in place can the "root condition" come into play. In the case of "root condition", the conditioning states are the six roots (lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha). Only one of these conditioning states is necessary for "root condition" to come into play. Once "root condition" comes into play, there are a number of possible conditioned states that may arise. These conditioned states are related to the conditioning states through "root condition". In the case of "root condition", the conditioned states are: - 71 rooted cittas - 52 cetasikas except moha conascent with two delusion rooted cittas - rupa born of rooted cittas - kamma born rupa at the time of a rooted rebirth The 71 rooted cittas are related to the appropriate roots (lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha) through root condition. In the 18 rootless (ahetuka) cittas, root condition does not come into play. This is an example of a citta being linked to specific cetasikas through root condition. If the root conditions the citta, it must also condition the conascent cetasikas (conascent = arising at the same time). All 52 cetasikas arise in at least one of the rooted cittas and when they arise in a rooted citta, the cetasikas are linked to the root through root condition. The exception to this rule is the cetasika moha when it arises in moha-rooted cittas. This makes sense because a thing cannot condition itself. To explain further, when the cetasika moha arises in a lobha rooted citta, the cetasika moha is related to lobha through root condition. In this citta, the other cetasikas (except the cetasika lobha itself) are related to lobha through root condition and at the same time are related moha through root condition (except the moha cetasika itself). Now in the two moha-rooted cittas, all of the cetasikas can be related to moha through root condition, but the cetasika moha cannot be related to itself and there are no other roots in that citta to which it can be related through root condition. There are four different things that can cause rupa to arise; kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition. The rupas that can arise from citta include earth, water, fire, wind, visible object, odour, flavour, nutrition, sound, body intimation, speech intimation, buoyancy, plasticity, wieldiness and space. If the citta which caused any of these rupa to arise happened to be one of the 71 rooted cittas, then the rupa is related to the root(s) of the citta through root condition. The rebirth linking citta (patisandhi citta) does not produce citta- born rupa because the citta is new to that existence (subsequent cittas do produce citta-born rupa). The rupa that arises at the time of rebirth is kamma-born (it includes life faculty rupa, heart-base rupa to support cittas, etc.). If the patisandhi citta has roots (there are some patisandhi cittas without roots; people born disabled, etc.), then the kamma-born rupa is related to these roots though root condition. Sorry Larry, I thought that I would take a simple example to explain the terms "condition", "conditioning states" and "conditioned states". Now I realize that none of them are simple. The good news is that the conditioned states associated with path condition are almost the same as the conditioned states associated with root condition. Now let's move on to your question regarding path condition (magga-paccaya), the eighteenth of the twenty-four conditions. The conditioning states (what has to be present before path condition comes into play) are: 1. panna (wisdom) with associated rooted cittas 2. vitakka (initial application) with associated rooted cittas 3. vaci-duccarita virati (abstinence from wrong speech; one of the three abstinences) with associated rooted cittas 4. kaya-duccarita virati (abstinence from wrong action; one of the three abstinences) with associated rooted cittas 5. ajiva-duccarita virati (abstinence from wrong livelihood; one of the three abstinences) with associated rooted cittas 6. viriya (energy) with associated rooted cittas 7. sati (mindfulness) with associated rooted cittas 8. ekaggata (one pointedness) with associated rooted cittas 9. ditthi (wrong view) with associated rooted cittas These are the nine cetasikas referred to in Table 8.3 of CMA under path condition. These nine cetasikas are only conditioning states when they are conascent (arise with) the 71 rooted cittas. For example, ekaggata can arise in the 18 rootless cittas and when it does, ekaggata is not a conditioning state for path condition. The conditioned states are the same as described above for root condition; the only difference being that with path condition, there is no need to exclude moha in the two moha-rooted cittas. The nine cetasikas listed above are path-factors. Path-factors can be akusala cetasikas (constitute the wrong path) or they can be sobhana cetasikas (constitute the right path). Path-factors of the wrong path lead to an unhappy rebirth. Path-factors of the right path lead to a happy rebirth. Path-factors of the right path lead to deliverance from samsara when they are constituents of the noble eightfold Path. Larry, in my previous message, I listed twelve path factors but this time I am only listing nine; this is because only a paramattha Dhamma can be a conditioning state. The last three path factors from my previous message are not cetasikas: - wrong speech (miccha-vaca) - wrong bodily action (miccha-kammanta) - wrong livelihood (miccha-ajiva) These last three can be considered to be path factors, but they are not conditioning states of path condition. Larry, if you want to know more about path condition, I suggest that you read Nina's book, "24 Conditions", Chapter 15, pp 127-135. Sorry for the indigestion. Metta, Rob M :-) 23685 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > So although those statements tend to support the view that mundane > concentration is a factor leading to liberation, I think this is > something that should be considered on the basis of the actual text > rather than Larry's summary of it. Hi Jon, I don't understand, maybe you can help me. If you feel that it is inappropriate for Howard to draw conclusions based on this summary text from Larry, why did you do the very same thing, first? Metta, James 23686 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] chanting and transference of merits to petas Hi PC, --- bodhi dhamma wrote: > Sarah, thank you for your reply, > > sorry for my late response as I am busy with the works. > The recent upsurge in regional stock market really make me a busy man > from 9 to 5 ( I work as a stock dealer with three telephones on my desk > ). .... Late responses are just fine with me and I’m glad to hear that business is good;-) Like RobK, I’m glad to hear your comments a lot. It’s good to have a stock dealer here as well and I don’t think you need to think of having a ‘wrong livelihood’ as long as there’s no need to decieve or break precepts in your work. We discussed before how in an ‘ultimate’ sense, right and wrong livelihood are just a moment. There are dhammas to be known in your work, just as in any other lifestyle and many opportunities for metta and karuna (compassion) from what you say about the punters you have contact with. Sometimes I think of life or lives as being like a chart of stock prices. If we look at just a day or week, it may seem that there are some really big ups and downs, good and bad fortunes, but over months, years, decades and especially lifetimes, these same ups and downs become hardly perceptible blips. Whilst you’d advise your clients to just look at where the present stock is and not cry over spilt milk or fantasise about the future one, in the same way, there is only ever the present reality. However, a long-term perspective and appreciation of the rounds of samsara can help us to see that the present one is so very common and ordinary and unsatisfactory too;-) “What can go up can go down” was the favourite slogan in boom times here -- I haven’t heard it for a while;-( Thanks for sharing your experiences and comments, PC. It’s good for everyone to see how understanding of the Dhamma can develop whatever the lifestyle. Good to hear about your discussions with your class as well on chanting. I think the chanting’s helpful as long as there isn’t any encouragement to cling to the particular experiences the members mention or special desire to have them. Please share more of your comments and discussions and anything from RobM’s book as well. With metta, Sarah ====== 23687 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga, The Path of Purification Hi PeterV, Welcome to DSG too.... We'd also be glad to hear where you live and anything else you care to share. I think the reason that you won't find the Vism in its entirety on a website is for copyright reasons.... obviously publishers need to see books to be able to keep producing them. I meant to mention to Icaro and other newbies that they may be interested to look at some selected posts from the archives at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts There's also a very simple Pali glossary at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms Hope to hear more from you. Metta, Sarah ====== --- vajramantra wrote: > Dear all, > > Does anyone know where the above mentioned work can be downloaded > from? > > Thanks, > > Peter 23688 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Hi PeterD, I was also very glad to hear your news and I hope your plans work out as you wish, Peter. Please let us know - you have many friends here. Also, please don't worry if your emails sound cryptic or if there are spelling mistakes - we're just glad to hear from you;-) If you have any problem with your yahoo account or if there's anything we can do to help from our end, please let us know on or off-list. If you have any other difficulties we can assist with too, please let Jon or myself know too. With metta, Sarah ====== --- peterdac4298 wrote: > Hi Jon et al > > Thanks for the offer. Right now I'm in Udon, holed up for a couple > of > weeks, so have a chance to access DSG from a local Internet Cafe. > With more time to hand, can be a little more coherent. I do > apreciate > your offers for assistance, very heartening to know. 23689 From: Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/27/03 4:49:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > I suspect there has been a misunderstanding. The five numbered > statements that I quoted in my post are Larry's summary of Vism XI, > 120-124 dealing with the benefits of the development of > concentration. They are not statements taken directly from the text, > as you seem to be implying. > > So although those statements tend to support the view that mundane > concentration is a factor leading to liberation, I think this is > something that should be considered on the basis of the actual text > rather than Larry's summary of it. For example, in the case of > Larry's No. 5, I read the text as referring to noble ones (not > Trainers) and to the attainment of cessation, i.e., nirodha-samapatti > (not the attainment of enlightenment). > > No problem, of course, just a clarification. > > Jon > ============================== Thank you very much, Jon. Yes, you are quite correct. I *did* misunderstand! I'm sorry for the mistake, and I thank you for the correction. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23690 From: Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Hi, James - In a message dated 7/27/03 8:35:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > >Howard > > >So although those statements tend to support the view that mundane > >concentration is a factor leading to liberation, I think this is > >something that should be considered on the basis of the actual text > >rather than Larry's summary of it. > > Hi Jon, > > I don't understand, maybe you can help me. If you feel that it is > inappropriate for Howard to draw conclusions based on this summary > text from Larry, why did you do the very same thing, first? > > Metta, James > > ============================= James, Jon had realized that what Larry wrote was Larry's summary of material from the text, and Jon then went to the effort of directly checking the text itself. (I didn't infer from Jon's post either of those facts. I presumed Larry was quoting from the text and Jon was *reinterpreting* in a way that seemed cavalier to me.) It's innocent all around. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23691 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - James, Jon had realized that what Larry wrote was Larry's summary of > material from the text, and Jon then went to the effort of directly checking > the text itself. (I didn't infer from Jon's post either of those facts. I > presumed Larry was quoting from the text and Jon was *reinterpreting* in a way that > seemed cavalier to me.) It's innocent all around. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard and Jon, Okay, that whole thread was a bust. I'm so turned around over that thread I have no idea who was trying to make what point. That's okay, now I have lost interest. Thanks for clearing that up for me and my apologies to Jon. Metta, James 23692 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Dear Sara, Sara: "Thanks for your great and colourful intro:-) I know > everyone will have > been glad to read more about you and will be greatly > appreciating your > posts and keen interest here." ------------------------------------------------------ Well, thanks! As I´ve said before, I am only an "Amateur" on Buddhism! ------------------------------------------------------ Sara: "I couldn’t express my sentiments better.... You’ll find not everyone here > shares the same enthusiasm for the Abhidhamma Pitaka > however.....;-)" ------------------------------------------------------ YEAH !!!!! :-)) I am quite impresssed with The Abhidhamma... and I did hit only the First Chapter of the Dhammasanganipali! And the Comys and reviews of the people here, mainly the excelents Robmoult´s and Von Gorkom´s, cleared up the path for a more and more accurate understanding of the ultimate remarks of Dhamma. Sara, I am really getting ripe fruits here at this group!!! ------------------------------------------------------ > Sara: "Thanks to all the contributors and keen interest in > the Pali Canon" ------------------------------------------------------ I´ve already downloaded many of the files at dhamastudygroup...It seems to me that Santa Claus visited me at July!!!! I am reading all of them eagerly...but always keeping my breath at a calm rhythm of "Up and Down...Up and Down". Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23693 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:48am Subject: Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Sarah, Thank you for your reply. I think both of us understand that the term "desire" is to be understood in its context. And I don't think we have major disaggreement in that respect. I don't quite understand what you mean by the following in your message. Please explain. Thank you. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] > So on account of what objects are these wholesome states and right effort > supposed to arise? On account of just the same objects which are usually > the objects of attachment, ignorance and aversion. In otherwords, the > `All' are to be known by right understanding and accompanying factors. > > "Forms, sounds, odours, tastes, > Tactiles and all objects of mind - > Desirable, lovely, agreeable, > So long as it's said: `They are.' > > "These are considered happiness > By the world with its devas; > But where these cease, > That they consider suffering. > > "The noble ones have seen as happiness > The ceasing of identity. > This (view) of those who clearly see > Runs counter to the entire world. > > "What others speak of as happiness, > That the noble ones say is suffering; > What others speak of as suffering, > That the noble ones know as bliss." > > (SN, Sa.laayatanavagga, Bk of Six Sense Bases., 136 Delight in Forms) > ..... > I may add other comments on your further points later, but I think I'll > see if we're close to any kind of agreement here first of all. > > Metta, > > Sarah 23694 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My time with A. Sujin 8. Dear Kio, here is the last of my series. Unless you have more questions :-) op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > Such insight will enable us to become > aware of what is going on – in terms of cause and effect > relationship to see the cause of suffering, etc. Such cause and > effect relationship lead to the experiential understanding of four > noble truths. So, practicing the `process' (may I also say, sila- > samadhi-panna?) will lead to elimination of suffering. My Time with A. Sujin. 8. My husband and I took part of many excursions with A. Sujin and other friends whenever we visited Thailand again. We went to nature reserves in the north of Thailand, to Nakom Phanom and other places in the provinces. For our Dhamma discussions A. Sujin always tries to arrange for pleasant surroundings and a relaxed atmosphere. With the help of her sister Khun Jeed and our friend Khun Duangduen she sees to it that we have delicious and well-balanced meals. There is no end to their hospitality. The right climate and suitable food can be favourable conditions for the citta that develops right understanding. During our visits to Thailand and during our pilgrimages to India we discussed Dhamma and whenever we talked about personal problems in daily life, she would give us the most practical advice. This helped us to see our problems in the light of the Dhamma. When we discussed deep subjects of the Dhamma such as the Dependent origination and the four noble Truths, she would always relate these to our daily life. We read in the Tipiìaka about the four noble Truths: dukkha, the cause of dukkha which is craving, the cessation of dukkha which is nibbåna and the way leading to the cessation of dukkha, which is the eightfold Path. A. Sujin stressed that we should not have merely theoretical understanding of the four noble Truths. Dukkha and the cause of dukkha pertain to our life at this moment. The way leading to the cessation is the development of right understanding of the realities appearing at this moment. When insight has been developed stage by stage nibbåna can be attained. We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (V, 420, Dhamma-Cakkappavattana vagga, §1), that the Buddha said, ³in short, the five khandhas are dukkha². When the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa , thus their impermanence, is realized, dukkha can be understood. What falls away immediately is not worth clinging to, it is dukkha. We have to develop insight stage by stage. We have to develop understanding of hardness when it appears through the bodysense during all our activities in daily life. We do not have to think, this is hard, and we do not have to think of the place where it touches; its characteristic can be known when it appears. Gradually we can learn that the characteristic of nåma is different from the characteristic of rúpa. When we take nåma and rúpa as a whole, the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa as they appear one at a time cannot be realized. They can not be realized as dukkha and we shall continue to take them for a person or a thing that exists. Craving, the cause of dukkha, arises time and again and it causes us to continue in the cycle of birth and death. A. Sujin reminded us to be aware of clinging at this moment. We should know when there is clinging to awareness, to having a great deal of understanding. If we do not realize such moments we do not follow the right Path. Intellectual understanding of the fact that each reality arises because of its own conditions can help us to follow the right Path, and then we shall not be inclined to try to select particular realities as objects of mindfulness and try to make mindfulness arise. It arises because of its own conditions. She said, ³Awareness is like an atom in a day², meaning that there are not many moments. How could this be otherwise; we have accumulated such a great deal of ignorance. We are in the cycle of birth and death, and during this cycle, cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another. Each citta that falls away conditions the arising of the following citta, and in this way all wholesome and unwholesome qualities of the past have been accumulated from moment to moment. Even so all wholesome and unwholesome qualities that arise at the present are accumulated and they will condition our life in the future. When ignorance arises today, it does so because it is conditioned by past moments of ignorance, even during aeons. When understanding arises today, it does so because it is conditioned by past moments of understanding. Even if there is a short moment of right understanding now, it is not lost, it is accumulated and thus there are conditions for its arising later on. A. Sujin said that this is like saving a penny a day, which can become a big fortune. During all our journeys and visits to Thailand she stressed that the four noble Truths are realized in different phases. First there should be firm understanding of what the object of right understanding is and how right understanding should be developed. This is the first phase (sacca ñåna, understanding of the truth). When understanding of the truth, the first phase, is firmly established, one will not deviate from the right Path, that is, right awareness and precise understanding of the characteristic of the reality that appears. The first phase is the foundation of the practice, which is the second phase (kicca ñåna, understanding of the task). This again is the foundation of the realization of the truth (kata ñåna, understanding of what has been done). I remember that we were walking in India with one of the Thai monks and that A. Sujin was repeatedly stressing these three phases. Hearing the Dhamma again and again helps us to remember what was explained and to reflect on it. When we read about the four noble Truths we may not realize that they can only be understood and applied in different phases and that we can begin right now. A. Sujin would always remind us that there is seeing at this moment. We do not have to be in a quiet place to understand seeing; there is seeing no matter where we are. Seeing can gradually be known as a reality that experiences only what appears through the eyes, visible object. This is the beginning of the first phase of understanding the four noble truths. The Buddha taught the development of understanding of our life at this very moment. The Abhidhamma is not technical, not theoretical, it teaches about citta, cetasika and rúpa, realities arising all the time. I am most grateful to A. Sujin for pointing out to us time and again that we should understand our life at this very moment. What she explained is completely in conformity with the Buddha¹s teachings. Nina. 23695 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1,access concentration Hi Larry, op 26-07-2003 23:29 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > You asked why I think at least access concentration is necessary for the > arising of understanding. The main reason is that I don't see any > indication in Visuddhimagga that concentration below this level is > capable of being the proximate cause of panna. However, I am not clear > at all on what access concentration is. Clearly it is a preliminary to > absorption concentration in the practice of jhana, N: Yes, it is a high degree of samadhi, and it can arise when the yogavacara develops tranquil meditation with one of the meditation subjects. It precedes absorption. Panna is necessary for the development of samatha, one has to know very precisely when kusala citta with calm arises and when akusala citta with wrong concentration, miccha samadhi, arises. Indeed, this is most difficult, because lobha can trick one all the time. One has to be very sincere as to one's practice. There may be a trance-like condition one takes for jhana, but which is in reality wrong concentration. One may even be able to have special powers with wrong concentration. Also as to access concentration the Visuddhimagga states that only very, very few people can attain it. There have to be the right conditions, one has to live a secluded life, away from sense pleasures. L:> in crowded [circumstances]" in Vism XI, 121 suggests to me that access > concentration could arise in ordinary circumstances, while shopping for > tomatoes for example. N: No. L:I think that is what you and Jon are proposing but > you seem to not want to call it access concentration because of the > association with jhana. Is that correct? N: No. Let us look again at the text: > Vism XI, 121: When ordinary people and Trainers develop it > [concentration] thinking 'After emerging we shall exercize insight with > concentrated consciousness', the development of absorption concentration > provides them with the benefit of insight by serving as the proximate > cause for insight, and so too does access concentration as a method of > arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances]. Hence the > Blessed One said: 'Bhikkhus, develop concentration; a bhikkhu who is > concentrated understands correctly' (S. iii, 13). N: crowded sircumstances: the household life. Remember the texts about the going forth. Wide open conditions: the monk's life, away from sense pleasures: "Narrow is the household life, a path of dust, Going forth is in the open." During jhana there are no sense impressions and no attachment to them. Freedom from the hindrances which are suppressed. But remember the text I just gave to you from the Perfections: panna knows when there are hindrances and when there are not. This is very difficult, it cannot be known without panna. Lobha, the foe, comes in the disguise of a friend. When there is access concentration just before jhanacitta arises the hindrances are suppressed. Thus the text about concentration being the proximate cause for insight should be seen within the context. This text cannot be used without discrimination. Nina. 23696 From: vajramantra Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 0:08pm Subject: Karma and reincarnation Hello all, Is it possible to actually experience the law of karma and reincarnation through the practice of meditation? I mean, Buddhism is known as a dogma-free spiritual system, still, when we look around, we often see that good people suffer while bad people rejoyce. I know this is just the surface, and we always hear from teachers that karma does work, even if we do not see it. But this is still a kind of faith, and Buddha taught that we should not accept something just because it comes from somebody we respect, but we should carefully analyze and examine whether the teaching is correct or not. So how can one examine whether karma and reincarnation are facts one can experience and not only something we - as Buddhists - are supposed to accept? I hope there is an answer that goes beyond "it must be true because Buddha said so". Peter 23697 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 0:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Sutta Nipata Comy Hi Sarah, The Sutta Nipata is a collection of 71 short suttas. Is this what you are talking about? The comy is long. I could look up the comy on the specific sutta. Giving you the entire comy would be tough. :-) kom > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 10:40 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta Nipata Comy > > > Dear Sarah and Kom, > op 23-07-2003 10:39 schreef Sarah op > sarahdhhk@y...: > > > > > The translation to the Sutta Nipata Comy has > been high on my ‘wish’ list > > for a long time. Out of interest, is it a long > text, like the Udana Comy, > > or a short one? 23698 From: Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 2:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1,access concentration Hi Nina, I have found that the term "access" is used in two ways in the Visuddhimagga. First, in the usual way as access to absorption and secondly as a technical term synonymous with "conformity consciousness" (see below). I would propose that it be used in a third way as access to insight. As such it is still secluded from the hindrances in the moment of its manifestation as it would have to be accompanied by sati and the other universal beautiful cetasikas in order for it to be a proximate cause for panna (understanding). That being the case, there would be at last a tiny fraction of a moment of piti accompanying it. [this being our original bone of contention] Incidentally, I have been trying to understand what concentration is in the context of citta process. The best I could come up with is maybe it is a mild "repeat" inducement causing the consciousness to (sometimes) repeat rather than going on to something else. Could you clarify this? Larry Vism XXI, 129: He thinks 'Now the path will arise.' Equanimity about formations after comprehending formations as impermanent, or as painful, or as not-self, sinks into the life-continuum. Next to the life-continuum, mind-door adverting arises making formations its object as impermanent or as painful or as not-self according to the way taken by equanimity about formations. Then next to the functional [adverting] conciousness that arose displacing the life-continuum, the first impulsion consciousness arises making formations its object in the same way, maintaining the continuity of consciousness. This is called the 'preliminary work'. Next to that a second impulsion consciousness arises making formations its object in the same way. This is called 'access'. Next to that a third impulsion consciousness also arises making formations its object in the same way. This is called 'conformity'. These are their individual names. But it is admissable to call all three impulsions 'repitition' or 'preliminary-work' or 'access' or 'conformity' indiscriminately. 23699 From: Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 2:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Path condition (was: object condition) Hi Rob, This is surprisingly clarifying. The main mistake I was making was in reading a colon for a semicolon. I still don't understand most of it but reading it again is helpful. One question. You said a conditioning state couldn't be a concept but concept can be an Object Condition conditioning state (and I think a couple of other conditions that are practically the same as Object Condition). So what does that do to this argument: Rob: "Larry, in my previous message, I listed twelve path factors but this time I am only listing nine; this is because only a paramattha Dhamma can be a conditioning state. The last three path factors from my previous message are not cetasikas: - wrong speech (miccha-vaca) - wrong bodily action (miccha-kammanta) - wrong livelihood (miccha-ajiva) These last three can be considered to be path factors, but they are not conditioning states of path condition." Larry 23700 From: Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 2:58pm Subject: direct knowledge Hi all, As a matter of curiosity I thought you might like to know there are two kinds of "direct knowledge" in the Visuddhimagga. The super advanced abhinnas we have discussed that can only be accessed after mastering jhana, and knowledge acquired between access and absorption concentration: Vism III,15: Herein, the development of concentration that occurs from the time of the first consciousness reaction up to the arising of the access of a given jhana is called "progress". And the understanding that occurs from the time of access until absorption is called "direct-knowledge". Larry 23701 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:15pm Subject: Natural decisive support condition (was: Path condition (was: object condition)) Hi Larry, Oops! I was wrong to generalize. Concepts can act as conditioning states for object condition and natural decisive support condition. Natural decisive support condition is one of the most important conditions. Kamma is the natural decisive support condition for the vipaka it creates. When repeated frequently, kusala and akusala become habitual and are powerful inducement for the future arising of kusala and akusala vipaka, even in future lives. For example, in a previous life, Angulimala had been a man-eating Yakkha. External conditions such as food, dwelling place and friends can also be natural decisive support conditions for the dhammas which they cause to arise. Faith may be a direct and natural inducement to charity, virtue to mental training, greed to theft, hate to murder, unsuitable food and climate to ill-health and friends to spiritual progress or deterioration. It is important to know why we study conditions. Visuddhimagga, Chapter XVII covers the application of conditions to the 11 links of paticcasamuppada. For example, paragraphs 102-104 explain the conditions that link ignorance as a conditioning state and kammic formations is a conditioned state. I have described this before on DSG, but I repeat it here for your reference: Ignorance is moha in the 12 akusala cittas. Kamma-formations refers to the active formation of wholesome or unwholesome kamma through volitional activities. There are three types of kamma-formations: - demeritorious (cetana in 12 akusala cittas) - meritorious (cetana in 8 kamavacara kusala cittas and 5 rupavacara kusala cittas) - imperturbable (cetana in 4 arupavacara kusala cittas) Ignorance conditions kusala kamma (cetana cetasika) by: - Object Condition: When one comprehends by means of insight that ignorance leads to unhappy states (kamavacara and rupavacara) - Natural Decisive Support Condition: When ignorance (conceit, vanity, etc.) motivates one to good deeds (kamavacara, rupavacara and arupavacara) Delusion conditions akusala kamma (cetana cetasika) by: - Root Condition: Moha is a root of all akusala cittas - Object Condition: When one is deluded into thinking that ignorance is a happy state - Object Predominance Condition / Decisive Support of Object Condition: When one remembers a past akusala (deluded) state but does not see it as akusala - Proximity Condition / Contiguity Condition: There is no separation in time or space between the arising of moha and the arising of the associated citta and cetasikas - Co-nascence Condition: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas arise together - Mutuality Condition: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas mutually support and mutually reinforce each other - Support Condition: Moha supports the other akusala cetasikas - Natural Decisive Support Condition: Moha, together with greed or aversion, motivate one to perform bad deeds - Repetition Condition: Moha in the first akusala javana citta conditions delusion in the second and so on - Association Condition: Moha is associated with its cittas and cetasikas through a common base, common base, common arising and common falling away - Presence Condition / Non-Disappearance Condition: The presence of moha allows the citta and other cetasikas to arise - Absence Condition / Disappearance Condition: When the first akusala javana citta falls away, this creates the condition for the second akusala javana citta to arise (up to the seventh akusala javana citta) Paragraphs 177-181 explain the conditions that link kammic formations as a conditioning state and consciousness as a conditioned state. In this case, there are two conditions at work; asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. As one goes through all the 11 links, the importance of natural decisive support becomes apparent. I think of natural decisive support condition as "motivation by accumulations"; this reminds me of the importance of doing kusala every day to make it a habit. Management textbooks will tell you that the way to change behaviour is to instill routines. Larry, sorry for going off on a bit of a tangent. I wanted to link our discussion of conditions to daily life. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > This is surprisingly clarifying. The main mistake I was making was in > reading a colon for a semicolon. I still don't understand most of it but > reading it again is helpful. > > One question. You said a conditioning state couldn't be a concept but > concept can be an Object Condition conditioning state (and I think a > couple of other conditions that are practically the same as Object > Condition). So what does that do to this argument: > > Rob: "Larry, in my previous message, I listed twelve path factors but > this time I am only listing nine; this is because only a paramattha > Dhamma can be a conditioning state. The last three path factors from my > previous message are not cetasikas: > - wrong speech (miccha-vaca) > - wrong bodily action (miccha-kammanta) > - wrong livelihood (miccha-ajiva) > These last three can be considered to be path factors, but they are not > conditioning states of path condition." > > Larry 23702 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:47pm Subject: Re: Karma and reincarnation Hi Peter V, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vajramantra" wrote: > Is it possible to actually experience the law of karma and > reincarnation through the practice of meditation? I mean, Buddhism is > known as a dogma-free spiritual system, still, when we look around, > we often see that good people suffer while bad people rejoyce. I know > this is just the surface, and we always hear from teachers that karma > does work, even if we do not see it. But this is still a kind of > faith, and Buddha taught that we should not accept something just > because it comes from somebody we respect, but we should carefully > analyze and examine whether the teaching is correct or not. So how > can one examine whether karma and reincarnation are facts one can > experience and not only something we - as Buddhists - are supposed to > accept? I hope there is an answer that goes beyond "it must be true > because Buddha said so". There is a common misconception that Buddhism has no place for "faith" or "doctrine" based on a misinterpretation of a single passage in the Kalama Sutta, taken out of context. The famous passage in the Kalama Sutta (Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing, nor upon tradition, nor upon rumour, nor upon scripture...) was given to a group of people: - Who were not followers of the Buddha - Who came to the Buddha, not to understand the Buddha's teaching, but rather because they were confused after hearing many other teachers - Like you, Peter V, the Kalamas were confused over the issues of kamma and rebirth In this Sutta, the Buddha was explaining that one does not need faith or doctrine to establish a moral foundation (greed, hate and delusion are bad, their opposites are good). The Sutta goes on to explain that the Noble ones, people who base their lives on this moral foundation, live in the four exhalted dwellings (loving- kindness, compassion, appreciative joy and equanimity). For these people, the issues of kamma and rebirth become a non-issue because they have the four solaces: - If there is an afterlife and kammic result, then I will undergo a pleasant rebirth - If there is none I still lives happily here and now - If evil results befall an evil-doer, then no evil will befall me - If evil results do not befall an evil-doer, then I am purified anyway In brief, in this Sutta the Buddha was explaining that even without faith and doctrine, one can see that one should live with a moral foundation. The Noble Ones (followers of the Buddha), those who base their lives on this moral foundation, do not have to be concerned about the issues of kamma and rebirth. You can read a more detailed (and more eloquent) treatment of this topic at: http://www.buddhistinformation.com/lecture_on_the_kalama_sutra.htm To answer your specific question regarding "seeing kamma" through meditation, the answer is, "Yes!". The bad news is that this perspective is considered one of the higher knowledges (abhinna) only available to those who have perfected their meditation. Hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 23703 From: Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Natural decisive support condition (was: Path condition (was: object condition)) Hi Rob, I didn't see how you answered the question: "L: what does that do to this argument: Rob: "Larry, in my previous message, I listed twelve path factors but this time I am only listing nine; this is because only a paramattha Dhamma can be a conditioning state. The last three path factors from my previous message are not cetasikas: - wrong speech (miccha-vaca) - wrong bodily action (miccha-kammanta) - wrong livelihood (miccha-ajiva) These last three can be considered to be path factors, but they are not conditioning states of path condition." Also, speaking of concepts, is the "prompted" characteristic considered to be a natural decisive support condition? Larry 23704 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 8:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Hi Jon, Looking back at my earlier response to you to this same message, I'm afraid I responded inappropriately to something that was only on my mind and really had nothing much to do with your message at all for which I deeply regret and apologize for. Thank-you for your message. I found your quotes and remarks to be reasonable and interesting. I look forward to learning more as we continue on with the study of Vism. Best wishes, Jim > Jim and Nina > > Jim, many thanks for your contributions so far on this project. It > has been very useful having your input. > > There are a number of passages in Vism that are relevant to the > thread you two are discussing here. I hope you don't mind me butting > in with one such set of references. > > III, 5 > '(iv) How many kinds of concentration are there? > ... > (3) [Concentration is] likewise [of two kinds] as mundane and > supramundane,' ... > > III, 7 > '3. Mundane concentration is profitable unification of mind in the > three planes. Supramundane concentration is the unification > associated with the noble paths.' > > III, 27 > '(v) How should it be developed? > 'The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with > the noble paths mentioned (# 7) under that 'of two kinds as mundane > and supramundane', etc., is included in the method of developing > understanding (Ch. XXII); for in developing [path] understanding > that is developed too. So we shall say nothing separately [here] > about how that is to be developed. > 'But mundane concentration should be developed by one who has > already taken his stand on virtue ...' > > I've no doubt there are other passages we shall come across from time > to time. I'm fully aware that no single passage is conclusive on > this issue. It will be interesting to consider at a later stage > everything we come up with during this study. > > Jon 23705 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Natural decisive support condition (was: Path condition (was: object condition)) Hi Larry (Nina, RobK and others), If your question is, "Why are there only nine conditioning states for path condition (the three path factors that are not cetasikas are not included)?", then my answer is, "Sorry, I don't know!" Perhaps Nina, RobK or others may know. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > I didn't see how you answered the question: > > "L: what does that do to this argument: > > Rob: "Larry, in my previous message, I listed twelve path factors > but > this time I am only listing nine; this is because only a paramattha > Dhamma can be a conditioning state. The last three path factors from my > previous message are not cetasikas: > - wrong speech (miccha-vaca) > - wrong bodily action (miccha-kammanta) > - wrong livelihood (miccha-ajiva) > These last three can be considered to be path factors, but they are not > conditioning states of path condition." > > Also, speaking of concepts, is the "prompted" characteristic considered > to be a natural decisive support condition? > > Larry 23706 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Jim There was nothing inappropriate in your reply, I can assure you, but thanks anyway. We are discussing views that are held to deeply and very dearly, and I know my posts can be provocative (this is not deliberate on my part ;-)). Actually, I've already written a reply to your post, but I didn't get around to sending it off before leaving for work (actually for exercise class at 6:30) this morning. I'll send it off when I get home this evening. It's good to keep talking, I think. Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Looking back at my earlier response to you to this same message, > I'm > afraid I responded inappropriately to something that was only on my > mind and really had nothing much to do with your message at all for > which I deeply regret and apologize for. > > Thank-you for your message. I found your quotes and remarks to be > reasonable and interesting. I look forward to learning more as we > continue on with the study of Vism. > > Best wishes, > Jim 23707 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Victor, I'm sure you don't mean any personal insult in this post; you are simply saying that I have been misled by a preoccupation with 'concepts and realities.' To cast doubt on the Buddha's teaching would be a terrible thing but you think this is exactly what I have done (been misled into doing): ------------- > seeing the Buddha's teaching in Thana Sutta as "conventional" led you to the conclusion that his advice is unsatisfactory > > > seeing the Buddha's teaching in Thana Sutta as conventional and unsatisfactory. ------------- No offence taken, although, in the following, you imply that I claim to have profound understanding; -------------- > you came up with an interpretation of the four noble truths in connection with your preconception about the discourse. To you, this interpretation is profound and entirely satisfactory. > -------------- I am slowly reaching the very early stages of mundane, intellectual understanding. Other dsg members know vastly more than I do but none of them claims profound understanding. To the contrary, they say they are in kindergarten. --------------- > Now, when you say When there is the concept of a course of action (unpleasant or pleasant, profitable or unprofitable), there is, in truth, dukkha. When there is the concept of living being (foolish or wise), there is, in truth, dukkha. The Noble Ones -- the wisest of beings -- directly know that only dhammas are real and that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. do you mean that: "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha." ? When you say When there is desire to follow one of the four courses of action or when there is desire for existence, then there is the cause of dukkha. do you mean the craving that makes for further becoming - - accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming." ? > > ----------------------- We would both answer yes to those questions. Where we differ is that you think a conventional understanding of the suttas will lead us it out of samsara; it won't. Thanks for your warnings about concepts and realities but I have equally strong opinions and would like to warn you in turn; Any purported version of the Buddha's teaching that does not distinguish concept (illusion, pannatti) from reality (paramattha dhamma), is bound to be misleading. It misleads us and, if we tell others that that is what the Buddha taught, it misleads them also. No offence intended :-) Kind regards, Ken > > The Buddha's teaching in Thana Sutta in and of itself is conducive > and in connection to the cessation of dukkha. It is not necessary > to consider the Buddha's teaching as "conventional" or "concept" or > even "ultimate" for that matter. Those preconceptions may be > misleading in understanding the Dhamma. > > Your comments are appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor 23708 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 1. for Sarah --- Dear Sarah, Certainly don't mind you adding comments. In fact, it made me smile when you wrote: [SNIP] > > ..... > S: So what about the gods in the rupa and arupa planes -- surely they > don't suffer from these problems, I thought as I was reading this..the > passage continues: > ..... > "And he should see the gods of the fine-material and immaterial spheres, > after so long a life-span, in the end succomb to the law of impermanence, > plunging from their heights back down into the round of birth, ageing, and > death, like birds swooping swiftly down from the heights of the sky or > like arrows shot by a strong arm descending in the distance. And having > seen all this, he should arouse a sense of spiritual urgency, and suffuse > all beings universally with loving-kindness and compassion." > ***** I smiled bec. I imagined you sitting there, reading and thinking 'surely its got to be a bit better for these beings', but no, its almost as bad!!!! I appreciate your comments, Sarah. It's difficult to discuss A.D.D. 'A Dhamma Depression', not Attention Deficit Disorder, with friends who aren't interested in the Dhamma; they think one should just go out a have a jolly good time. Maybe, just maybe at this stage, I'll see you in Thailand in Oct. I am beginning to slowly understand A. Sujin's words of wisdom about being courageous and cheerful. May we all have patience, courage and cheerfulness, Azita 23709 From: vajramantra Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:48am Subject: Re: Karma and reincarnation Dear Rob, First of all, thank you for answering my question. I have been practising Buddhism for at least six years, but it seems that I jumped into it too fast, having missed to clarify some basic points. You know, before meeting Buddhism I spent some years in a Hindu organization, where the main emphasis was put on faith, obedience to the guru, accepting everything what he says, accepting the scriptures without questioning, etc. After some time I got really disappointed, and I left. I started to search for something else, something different. I liked Buddhism a lot because of what I quoted in my first post, the famous "do not accept anything on the basis of respect, etc.". Having read your letter I am a little confused, so to speak. Could you please tell me more about how faith and devotion manifests in Buddhism? And if Buddhism also includes faith and devotion, then what is the difference between theistic processes and Buddhism? As far as I know, the historical Buddha was somewhat disappointed with the different religious systems, that is why he rejected them in a sense. In your last line you say that on a higher platform of contemplation one can experience karma and reincarnation. So until I reach that state, what am I supposed to do when these doubts start to haunt me? How can I assure myself that even though I cannot see it, still, these things exist? Thank you for your time, Peter 23710 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Jim Thanks for these comments. I agree with much of what you say here. In particular, I agree that no-one can say when or in what manner enlightenment will come (i.e., whether as a sukkhavipassaka or as a dry-insight worker). In fact, I would go even further: I do not read the texts as suggesting that one should elect to follow one way or the other -- I regard these groupings as ex post facto classifications. You see, I believe the teachings encourage us to take every opportunity to develop kusala of all kinds, and that of course means samatha as well as vipassana; it really depends on present circumstances and conditions and our accumulated tendencies which particular form of kusala if any will occur at a particular time. How things develop in the long run is going to be determined very much by what happens during all those kalpas that we have yet to go through ;-)). I also agree that each person's inclinations and aspirations are a personal matter and not any one else's business. That said, however, the question of whether, according to the doctrine as taught by the Buddha, the development of mundane concentration/samatha (tranquility) is a necessary prerequisite for the development of insight is one that, as I see it, needs to be considered by everyone regardless of personal inclinations or aspirations, since it goes to the very heart of the development of the path. There is much material in the texts that has a bearing on this question, and I think it is good to critically examine that material. As you know, my own view is that the teachings do not make that particular connection between mundane concentration and insight; but this in no way lessens my regard for mundane concentration as a form of kusala highly extolled by the Buddha and as such very worthy of being developed. The immediate significance in practical terms of this question seems to lie in whether or not one regards the lack of developed mundane concentration as an obstacle to the development of insight at the present moment, because of the perceived nexus between the two. Thanks for the opportunity to explain a bit further. Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Jon, > > There's one main point I'd like to make about this ongoing > controversy > concerning the role of jhaana. I know that you and Nina and other > followers of K. Sujin often downplay the importance of developing > jhaana, in other words, one doesn't need it if one follows the way > of > the sukkhavipassaka or dry-insight worker. I have no problem with > anyone following that way. The problem is how does one know if that > is the right way to take up given the particular individual's > situation > and should a dry-insight worker decree that all should do likewise? > After all there are a number of other equally possible approaches, > in > addition. For myself and at this stage of the game, I simply cannot > predetermine exactly how enlightenment will come about for me and > for > all I know it could be as an insight-worker. I like to keep all my > options open and to follow the method in full as laid out in the > Visuddhimagga sounds very acceptable even if it's impossible for me > to > come anywhere near the jhaanas in this lifetime. But that doesn't > rule > out the possibility that the work I do in this lifetime may help in > achieving jhaanic states in some future life. Maybe I'm in for the > long haul, at least a 100,000 kalpas. > > Jim 23711 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:46am Subject: Vism. EngPali XIV, 1 Jim, All Thanks very much for making the Pali available. I am setting out the relevant part alongside Larry's first instalment of the English text. This is partly for the purposes of the present discussion, and partly for the sake of future retrieval (hence the attempt at a 'unique' subject heading). ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Ch. XIV, The Aggregates A. Understanding 1. Now concentration was described under the heading of "consciousness" in the stanza: 'When a wise man, established well in virtue, Develops consciousness and understanding' And that has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits described [in Chs. XII and XIII]. But "understanding" comes next. And that has still to be developed. Now that is not easy, firstly even to know about, let alone to develop, when it is taught very briefly. In order, therefore, to deal with the detailed method of its development there is the following set of questions: (i) What is understanding? (ii) In what sense is it understanding? (iii) What are its characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause? (iv) How many kinds of understanding are there? (v) How is it developed? (vi) What are the benefits of developing understanding? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 14. khandhaniddeso pa~n~naakathaa 1. idaani yasmaa eva.m abhi~n~naavasena adhigataanisa.msaaya thirataraaya samaadhibhaavanaaya samannaagatena bhikkhunaa siile pati.t.thaaya naro sapa~n~no, citta.m pa~n~na~nca bhaavayanti ettha cittasiisena niddi.t.tho samaadhi sabbaakaarena bhaavito hoti, tadanantaraa pana pa~n~naa bhaavetabbaa, saa ca atisa"nkhepadesitattaa vi~n~naatumpi taava na sukaraa, pageva bhaavetu.m; tasmaa tassaa vitthaara.m bhaavanaanaya~nca dassetu.m ida.m pa~nhaakamma.m hoti. kaa pa~n~naa, kena.t.thena pa~n~naa, kaanassaa lakkha.narasapaccupa.t.thaana-pada.t.thaanaani, katividhaa pa~n~naa, katha.m bhaavetabbaa, pa~n~naabhaavanaaya ko aanisa.msoti. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --- Jim Anderson wrote: > If any of you are interested in having the Pali text of Vism. > XIV.1-32 > in a plain text format (15K), you can download zvis14a.txt from the > DSG files folder (it's right at the bottom). It is copied from the > Burmese CSCD disk and converted to the Velthuis scheme (no special > font required). To make it more useful I have changed the section > numbers to match those in ~Naa.namoli's translation. It's better to > read it in a word processor as the lines probably won't wrap on > your browser. Just save to disk after downloading. > > Jim 23712 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:59am Subject: Re: Karma and reincarnation (long answer) Hi Peter V, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vajramantra" wrote: > First of all, thank you for answering my question. I have been > practising Buddhism for at least six years, but it seems that I > jumped into it too fast, having missed to clarify some basic points. > You know, before meeting Buddhism I spent some years in a Hindu > organization, where the main emphasis was put on faith, obedience to > the guru, accepting everything what he says, accepting the scriptures > without questioning, etc. After some time I got really disappointed, > and I left. I started to search for something else, something > different. I liked Buddhism a lot because of what I quoted in my > first post, the famous "do not accept anything on the basis of > respect, etc.". Having read your letter I am a little confused, so to > speak. Could you please tell me more about how faith and devotion > manifests in Buddhism? And if Buddhism also includes faith > and devotion, then what is the difference between theistic processes > and Buddhism? As far as I know, the historical Buddha was somewhat > disappointed with the different religious systems, that is why he > rejected them in a sense. > > In your last line you say that on a higher platform of contemplation > one can experience karma and reincarnation. So until I reach that > state, what am I supposed to do when these doubts start to haunt me? > How can I assure myself that even though I cannot see it, still, > these things exist? The Pali word for faith is saddha. The term "faith" does not capture the complete meaning of saddha. Other translations of saddha include "confidence", "conviction" and "trust". The literal meaning of saddha is "to place your heart upon." When we give our hearts over to a spiritual practice, it is a sign of faith or confidence in that practice. All wholesome states of mind have saddha as their leader. Only when one has confidence in the value of generosity, discipline or mental development will one apply oneself. Saddha is an ultimate reality with its own characteristic, it is not specifically Buddhist. One can have trust in generosity, loving-kindness and good deeds without being Buddhist. Saddha is one of the "controlling faculties" that exercise leadership over the accompanied mental states. Other controlling faculties include wisdom, energy, concentration and mindfulness. There must be a balance of the controlling faculties: - Too much saddha and too little wisdom leads to blind faith - Too little saddha and too much wisdom leads to cunning - Too much saddha and too little energy leads to no exertion - Too little saddha and too much energy leads to no resolve - Too much saddha and too little concentration makes one easily distracted - Too little saddha and too much concentration inhibits absorption (jhana) - Too much saddha and too little mindfulness does not provide a foundation - Too little saddha and too much mindfulness does not allow comprehension As with many of the people on this list, I was raised as a Christian and went to church most Sundays. When I was 12 or 13, I took "Confirmation Classes" to learn more about Christianity. I remember vividly the first class. The minister explained the meaning of "The Lord's Prayer". He started with "Our Father" and explained that this meant that all people had a common father (God); we then discussed the relationship between a father and his children. The minister then continued with, "who art in heaven"; we then spent time discussing what was meant by heaven. This had a huge impact on me. I had been reciting the Lord's Prayer without any understanding for years (at that time, it was still recited in school each morning). I thought to myself, "If there is a God up there observing me, then I am not fooling Him with my blind recitals." I decided from that point on not to recite anything blindly. I still attended church, but instead of reciting the prayers and singing the hymns, I thought about what was being said. It was this thinking for myself that eventually led me to Buddhism (to be continued...). The Buddhist object of faith is the Triple Gem; Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha (Ti-Sarana). The Theravada Buddhist ceremonies that I have attended usually start with the taking of refuge in the Triple Gem. True going for refuge is much more than reciting a formula. The going for refuge is an occasion of consciousness; It is an act of consciousness devoid of defilements, motivated by confidence in and reverence for the Triple Gem, taking the Triple Gem as the supreme resort. There are three reasons for taking refuge: 1. To provide protection from negative reactions to current problems. Life is dukkha; we cannot alter the nature of the world, so we must change ourselves by putting away attachment and aversion. Equanimity is the highest safety and security. 2. To avoid falling into the evil destinations in future lives. The triple Gem helps us to select right from wrong when the choice is not obvious and develops discipline to avoid being controlled by impulses. 3. To provide deliverance from Samsara. Craving and existence sustain each other in succession. Craving brings forth a new existence; the new existence gives the ground for craving to resume its search for gratification. To eradicate craving, the ignorance which supports it has to be dislodged. The antidote to ignorance is wisdom, "seeing things as they really are". This is not mere conceptual knowledge, but an internal experience. To avoid blind recitals, it is important to understand what it meant by the three objects of refuge: 1. Buddha - both the person and Buddhahood. Buddhahood is abandonment of defilements and acquisition of virtues. Defilements (kilesa) are lobha (greed), dosa (anger) and moha (delusion). Abandonment means that there are none remaining, no residual impression and they cannot arise again. The principle virtues are wisdom and compassion. 2. Dhamma - The Tipitaka is an indirect refuge (the map), the practice is a direct refuge (the path) and Nibbana is the ultimate refuge (the goal). 3. Sangha - Not the monastic Sangha, the ariyan Sangha (Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant). There are three dimensions of going for refuge: 1. Intelligence - Though inspired by reverence, taking refuge must be guided by understanding which protects it from the dangers of blind emotion. Initially, we must understand the pervasive unsatisfactoriness of existence which makes reliance on a refuge necessary. The mind also has to grasp the reliability of the refuge- objects. A growth of understanding leads to a deeper commitment to the refuges; deepening commitment leads to growth of understanding. When the path (magga) arises, the refuge becomes irreversible, for it has been verified by direct experience (in other words, once one is a Sotapanna, the direction is irreversible). The intelligence that leads one to go for refuge, understanding of the danger of samsaric existence, is the seed for the faculty of wisdom which eventually issues in direct penetration of the four noble truths. 2. Volition - Previously, the will might have been scattered between many concerns. When the taking of refuge dominates, the will becomes focused on the new commitment. Taking refuge causes a deep-seated reversal in the movement of the will. Volition is the seed for the will to renunciation, the driving force that impels a man to renounce his craving, and egoistic clinging in order to go forth in search of liberation. It functions as well as the seed for the practice of right effort, the sixth factor of the noble eightfold path, by which we strive to abandon unwholesome impure mental states and to cultivate the wholesome and pure states. 3. Emotion - The emotions involved are principally three: confidence, reverence and love. Devotion and reverence for the Triple Gem become the seed for the germination of "unwavering confidence", the assurance of a noble disciple whose confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha can never be shaken by any outside force. Here is an analogy to explain the different types of "faith" in Buddhism based on a passage from Milindapada. A man is on one side of a wide creek and wants to get to the other side. He psyches himself up by telling himself, "I can jump to the other side. I know that I can do it. I believe that I can do it!" The man has blind faith. While the man is standing there, another person arrives at the same spot. The other person runs and jumps over the creek. Having witnessed this, the man says to himself, "I have seen it done. I know that it was done. I believe that I can do it." Now the man has bright faith (no longer blind faith). Once the man has jumped over the creek, he thinks, "I know it can be done, because I have already done it." Now the man has mature faith. As mentioned above, once one has direct experience of Nibbana, the path is irreversible. Buddhism does not encourage blind faith. In the Bhumija Sutta (Mn 126), the Buddha made it clear that results come from proper practice, not from strong desire (or from faith). In Buddhism, one is encouraged to closely examine the doctrine. There is a natural progression from study (pariyatti) to practice (patipatti) to realization (pativedha). Study is a foundation for practice and proper practice leads to realization. This principle helps guide what is truly important. For example, the texts say that there are 31 planes of existence. Whether I believe this to be true is not a big issue because this does not impact my practice. If in reality, there are 10 planes or 100 planes, it makes no difference as to how I should conduct myself. Peter, you have doubts regarding kamma and reincarnation. Let me continue the story of how I came to Buddhism that I started above. As I started listening to everything that was being said in Church, I found that I did not feel comfortable with some of it. I decided to stop attending Church and I read a number of western philosophers. Not finding any answers there, I decided to develop my own personal outlook on life. I spent many years thinking seriously about this. I developed a very elaborate set of beliefs. One day, I was out camping with my girlfriend and her family. Her father was a minister and around the campfire, he asked me about my religious beliefs. He was an open-minded man, so I decided to tell him what I had been developing on my own for so many years and not shared with anybody. He listened for a couple of hours, asking some clarifying questions and then said, "In order to become a minister, one has to study comparative religions. Though you have used different terminology, what you have described to be is essentially Buddhism." I said, "I'm sorry, I have never read anything about Buddhism. I have a hard time believing that I could have independently come up with one of the world's major religions." This incident made me curious and I picked up a book on Buddhism. I felt completely at home. Later, it was explained to me that in a previous life, I must have studied Buddhism and that is why I had such a strong kammic affinity to the Dhamma in this life. Why do you feel a special attraction for some people? It is because you have known them in a past life. How is a child a musical prodigy? It is because they were musicians in a previous life. There are so many stories of people remembering past lives. Peter, though I do not have the ability to "jump out of the system" and view my past lives, there is strong circumstantial evidence pointing to reincarnation. However, as the Buddha points out in the Kalama Sutta, even without a belief in kamma and reincarnation, there are solid reasons to avoid greed, anger and delusion and strong reasons to cultivate their opposites. If you believe this, then you have saddha; the kind of "faith" that is the foundation of a profitable life. Peter, if the existence (or non-existence) of kamma and rebirth is not going to impact your behaviour, why worry about it? This is the point of the "four solaces" section of the Kalama Sutta. Over time, with more experience and more contemplation, you may come to accept more and more of the Dhamma; but if this does not change your behaviour, what is the point? In brief, I wouldn't be too concerned if you have a hard time accepting kamma or reincarnation, as long as you have a strong moral foundation. This notwithstanding, there is a danger if one is attached to a view that rejects the idea of kamma; this type of wrong view leads to unwholesome behaviour (and according to the texts, can lead to a bad rebirth). I hope that this helps. I look forward to your feedback. Metta, Rob M :-) 23713 From: Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:10am Subject: wide open conditions Vism. XI, 121: ..."the development of absorption concentration provides them with the benefit of insight by serving as the proximate cause for insight, and so too does access concentration as a method of arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances]." Hi Nina, After considering your objections I agree "wide open conditions" refers to disciplined conditions (restraints of all kinds), not dry insight. Do you know of any source, ancient or modern, that extensively discusses dry insight, especially the role of concentration therein? Larry 23714 From: Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Larry: 5. For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana)." Jon: For 'noble ones' (see XII, 124) who aspire to nirodha-samapatti, it may serve as the basis for that attainment. I believe the reference to 'noble ones' here is a reference to anagami's and arahants (i.e., not exactly the same class as 'Trainers'). Hi Jon, A note of clarification. In B. Nyanmoli's glossary "noble one" = ariyan (trainers + arahants). So I read this "benefit" to mean developed concentration is a means to abide in nirodha samapatti for ariyans. Here's the passage I used: Vism. XI, 124: But when Noble Ones who have already produced the eight attainments develop concentration thinking 'We shall enter upon the attainment of cessation, and by being without consciousness for seven days we shall abide in bliss here and now by reaching the cessation that is nibbana', then the development of absorption concentration provides for them the benefit of cessation. Larry 23715 From: peterdac4298 Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Hi Sarah Thanks for your words of support, most appreciated indeed. I am gradually getting acclimatized and settling in. I am managing to access dsg more frequently now that I'm more organized. The posts are most inspiring, just the thing I need right now. My reading is more focused on Vinaya during this time, but hope to include more Dhammic material in the not too distant future. Have just read about Bob Hope, an inspiration for Buddhists as much as everyone else. Generosity seems to breed its own kind of talent. Cheers Peter -- Peter Da Costa peterdac@h... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi PeterD, > > I was also very glad to hear your news and I hope your plans work out as > you wish, Peter. Please let us know - you have many friends here. > > Also, please don't worry if your emails sound cryptic or if there are > spelling mistakes - we're just glad to hear from you;-) > > If you have any problem with your yahoo account or if there's anything we > can do to help from our end, please let us know on or off-list. > > If you have any other difficulties we can assist with too, please let Jon > or myself know too. > > With metta, > > Sarah > ====== > > --- peterdac4298 wrote: > Hi Jon et al > > > > Thanks for the offer. Right now I'm in Udon, holed up for a couple > > of > > weeks, so have a chance to access DSG from a local Internet Cafe. > > With more time to hand, can be a little more coherent. I do > > apreciate > > your offers for assistance, very heartening to know. 23716 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:57am Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Ken, Thank you for your comments. The Buddha's teaching in Thana Sutta in and of itself is conducive and in connection to the cessation of dukkha. However, the view that the Buddha's teaching in Thana Sutta is conventional led you to conclude that it is unsatisfactory. The Buddha's teaching is to be understood as it is. The attributes "conventional", "conceptual", or even "ultimate" is irrelevant. The view "This teaching is conventional (or conceptual, or ultimate)" is unnecessary. Regarding the noble truth of dukkha, I believe that both of us agree that it means as it was stated by the Buddha: "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging- aggregates are dukkha." And regarding the noble truth of the cause of dukkha, I believe that both of us agree that it means as it was proclaimed by the Buddha: the craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. Your comments are welcome. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] > > Kind regards, > Ken 23717 From: vajramantra Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:59am Subject: Advice to Laypeople Hello all, Could you please recommend some work specifically dealing with advices to laypeople with regards to view, meditation and behavior? Thank you, Peter 23718 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1,access concentration Hi Larry, op 27-07-2003 23:06 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I have found that the term "access" is used in two ways in the > Visuddhimagga. First, in the usual way as access to absorption and > secondly as a technical term synonymous with "conformity consciousness" > (see below). N: correct. It arises shortly before there is another plane of citta. Sortly before a change of lineage. There are four planes of citta: of the sense-sphere (kamavacara), of rupa-jhana, of arupajhana and of lokuttara. L:I would propose that it be used in a third way as access to > insight. N: This is not possible, no change of lineage, there is not another plane of citta that follows. L: As such it is still secluded from the hindrances in the moment > of its manifestation as it would have to be accompanied by sati and the > other universal beautiful cetasikas in order for it to be a proximate > cause for panna (understanding). That being the case, there would be at > last a tiny fraction of a moment of piti accompanying it. [this being > our original bone of contention] N: When you use the word insight, do you mean a stage of insight, such as discerning the difference between nama and rupa, the first stage, or the following stages? Or enlightenment? There may be kusala citta with panna, and with somanassa and piti or kusala citta with upekkha and no piti. I have a feeling we better speak about piti in daily life first. We were reminded by Icaro: the classification of The Cetasikas: 1. that which arises together with consciousness 2. that which perishes together with consciousness 3. that which has an identical object with consciousness 4. that which has a common basis with consciousness. We should not take this as theory, it is actuality right now. In the case of cittas of the sensesphere, piti arises together with pleasant feeling, it can arise with cittas of all four jatis: kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya. Don't you agree that there are more often akusala cittas then kusala cittas? Thus, when there are pleasant feeling and piti, rapture, most of the time these arise together with lobha, attachment. Citta rooted in lobha likes all sense objects, it likes praise and honour, it likes encouragement (what a lot of akusala is following after I appreciated someone's encouragement, what a lot of conceit!). It can be accompanied by conceit or by wrong view. All accompanying cetasikas share the same object as citta, and they arise at the same physical base. We can analyse whether there was lobha or not, but cittas arise and fall away so fast, they are already gone when we think about them. Theoretical understanding can never be as precise as direct understanding arising with satipatthana. That is the reason why it is very difficult to know what is exactly pleasant feeling and what piti, they are together, but still different cetasikas. Diffiuclt to know when piti arises with lobha and when with kusala citta. You may rejoice in someone else's kusala with piti, then there is anumodana dana. Piti refreshes the kusala citta. Shortly afterwards the kusala is spoiled, isn't it? What is your experience as to this? However, we should not regret that there is akusala, if we regret it, we cling to "my beautiful kusala". We have a good opportumity to know what naturally arises within us, thanks to the Buddha's teaching which is so precise. We like the pleasant feeling and the piti, or maybe there is conceit. We are such a mixture and it can be very confusing. There are already different cittas and remember: . Before the first stage of insight arises, it is difficult to clearly distinguish between citta and cetasika, although sati can begin to be mindful of different characteristics. Only after the first stage it is known more clearly what the mind-door process is, what nama is. Now in the case of the development of jhana: piti and somanassa and other cetasikas are jhanafcators which have to be developed. They have to be clearly distinguished. In higher jhanas, at the fourth stage, piti is abandoned, but there is still pleasant feeling. How can jhanafactors be abandoned if the yogavacara cannot clearly distinguish between them? It is the same in the case of vitakka, applied thinking and vicara, sustained thinking. At the second stage of jhana vitakka is abandoned, but there is still vicara. As I said, also in samatha panna is necessary. It is most difficult to distinguish between the jhanafactors, but really necessary in order to be able to develop jhana. Piti is a factor of enlightenment, but it develops already when right understanding is developed, we do not have to think of piti. It arises because of its own conditions. You may have a reason to stress piti so much. You speak repeatedly about being secluded from the hindrances. If you are interested to develop satipatthana, remember that they are among the fourth application: mindfulness of dhammas. You do not have to suppress them, they can be object of insight. There is no need to be preoccupied how to be secluded from the hindrances. If you are interested to develop jhana, you do not have to force yourself either to suppress the hindrances, because when the right conditions have been cultivated, the jhanacitta subdues the hindrances. L: Incidentally, I have been trying to understand what concentration is in > the context of citta process. The best I could come up with is maybe it > is a mild "repeat" inducement causing the consciousness to (sometimes) > repeat rather than going on to something else. Could you clarify this? N: You probably think of the last part of the text you quote: .....This is called the 'preliminary work'. Next to that a second impulsion consciousness arises > making formations its object in the same way. This is called 'access'. > Next to that a third impulsion consciousness also arises making > formations its object in the same way. This is called 'conformity'. > These are their individual names. But it is admissable to call all three > impulsions 'repetition' or 'preliminary-work' or 'access' or > 'conformity' indiscriminately. You think of impulsions : in Pali: aasevana. There are usually seven javanacittas in a process, cittas which are kusala or akusala. They are of the same type and each one conditions the succeeding one by way of repetition-condition (aasevana paccaya). That is all. It does not have to do anything with concentration, a cetasika which accompanies each citta and shares the same object with the citta, arises and falls away with it. Concentration can be of different degrees. It can be kusala or akusala, depending on the citta it accompanies. It accompanies jhanacitta and also lokuttara citta. In the last case its strength is equal to the concentration of jhana, but its object is nibbana. We have to remember again that cetasika shares the same object with the citta it accompanies. Nina. P.S. Jim was so kind to send me Vis. and subco in Pali, and now I can study these for details. 23719 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:17am Subject: FW: Co, Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, 3 B Co, Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, 3 B bhagavaa simbalidaayato nikkhantasupa.n.naraajaa viya, The Exalted One was like a king of the Garuda birds, emerging from a forest grove of silk-cotton trees, raahulabhaddo ca supa.n.naraajassa pacchatonikkhantasupa.n.napotako viya. And Lucky Rahula was like the young of the king of the Garuda birds, departing after him. bhagavaa cittakuu.tapabbatato gaganatala.m pakkhandasuva.n.naha.msaraajaa viya, The Exalted One was like the golden king of the swans, leaping from Mount Cittakuu, gliding along the sky, raahulabhaddo ca ha.msaadhipati.m anupakkhandaha.msapotako viya. And Lucky Rahula was like a swan¹s young, following in its flight the ruler of the swans. bhagavaa mahaasara.m ajjhogaa.lhaa suva.n.namahaanaavaa viya, The Exalted One was like a golden vessel, that had entered a great lake, raahulabhaddo ca suva.n.nanaava.m pacchaa anubandhanaavaapotako viya. And Lucky Rahula was like a small boat following after the golden vessel. bhagavaa cakkaratanaanubhaavena gaganatale sampayaatacakkavattiraajaa viya, The Exalted One was like a wheelturning monarch, flying in the sky by the power of the Wheel Gem, raahulabhaddo ca raajaana.m anusampayaatapari.naayakaratana.m viya. And Lucky Rahula was like the chief of army of the universal monarch, proceeding after the universal monarch. bhagavaa vigatavalaahaka.m nabha.m pa.tipannataarakaraajaa viya, The Exalted One was like the ruler of the stars*, floating in a cloudless sky, raahulabhaddo ca taarakaadhipatino anumaggapa.tipannaa parisuddhaosadhitaarakaa viya. and Lucky Rahula was like the pure ³star of healing², following the ruler of the stars in its course. English: The Exalted One was like a king of the Garuda birds, emerging from a forest grove of silk-cotton trees, And Lucky Rahula was like the young of the king of the Garuda birds, departing after it. The Exalted One was like the golden king of the swans, leaping from Mount Cittakuu, gliding along the sky, And Lucky Rahula was like a swan¹s young, following in its flight the ruler of the swans. The Exalted One was like a golden vessel, that had entered a great lake, And Lucky Rahula was like a small boat following after the golden vessel. The Exalted One was like a wheelturning monarch, flying in the sky by the power of the Wheel Gem, And Lucky Rahula was like the chief of army of the universal monarch, proceeding after the universal monarch. The Exalted One was like the ruler of the stars *, floating in a cloudless sky, and Lucky Rahula was like the pure ³star of healing², following the ruler of the stars in its course. * The Subcommentary explains: the ruler of the stars is the moon. ******* 23720 From: Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:41am Subject: prompted conditions Hi Sarah, I haven't asked you a question lately so here's one. Which condtions condition the arising of a consciousness prompted by body, speech or mind? Is a prompted consciousness resultant (vipaka) because it is the result of a prompt? If a salesman persuades me that something is desirable is that desire resultant, javana, or both? Larry 23721 From: Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:47pm Subject: concentration Larry: Incidentally, I have been trying to understand what concentration is in the context of citta process. The best I could come up with is maybe it is a mild "repeat" inducement causing the consciousness to (sometimes) repeat rather than going on to something else. Could you clarify this? Nina: You probably think of the last part of the text you quote: .... Hi Nina, No. I am thinking of not wandering. Concentration is characterized as not wandering. What does this mean in citta process? How can citta process "not wander"? As for piti, you are misunderstanding me. All I am suggesting is that there is a _slight_ sense of joy when there is mindfulness. This joy is the joy of nonattachment. Maybe it isn't the same for everyone. Lastly, is concentration the proximate cause of dry insight? If so, is this concentration different in any way from ORDINARY concentration? Larry 23722 From: slartibarfast_147 Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:05pm Subject: Conciousness after death Greetings to all, i would appreciate any help from anyone who can shed light on this: According to dhamma, does conciousness depend on the physical body? Does conciousness continue after death of this body? If so how was it realized by Guatama/Buddha directly; perceived by himself directly ? with metta, nori 23723 From: slartibarfast_147 Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:31pm Subject: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? Greetings to all, I hope I don't sound like a jerk asking this question, but anyway here it is: - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower life forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What is the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know what to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for dinner or refrain from eating chicken. with metta, nori 23724 From: vajramantra Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:03pm Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? Dear Nori, As far as I know: It is true that all suffering one experiences is created by one's own negative actions. Nevertheless, bad deeds are committed out of ignorance. Beings do not know or do not accept the law of karma, so they engage in activities that bring about suffering. Thus, understanding that no one is "evil", we are simply ignorant and that is why we cause suffering to ourselves and to others, one can feel compassion towards everyone. I hope this helps. Peter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "slartibarfast_147" wrote: > Greetings to all, > > I hope I don't sound like a jerk asking this question, but anyway > here it is: > > - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower life > forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What is > the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? > > Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know what > to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for dinner > or refrain from eating chicken. > > > with metta, > nori 23725 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:19pm Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "slartibarfast_147" wrote: > Greetings to all, > > I hope I don't sound like a jerk asking this question, but anyway > here it is: > > - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower life > forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What is > the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? > > Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know what > to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for dinner > or refrain from eating chicken. > > > with metta, > nori Hi Nori Thanks for raising such an interesting and difficult question. I don't feel I have the technical understanding to give you a definitive answer, but there are many on this list who can and will do just that from various perspectives. I do have some thoughts which I will have to set out in plain language as that is all I can manage. Animals (like humans) suffer. In Dhamma terms, we say that we are all subject to dukkha. It is wholesome to feel compassion. It is not wholesome to wallow in sadness or indignation over the fact of suffering. When we ask if an entity "deserves" its fate (and is therefore not worthy of compassionate feeling), we are making a judgement. The intent of the Dhamma is not to make judgements, but to see things as they really are. The Dhamma says "2 + 2 = 4" and not "2 + 2 deserves to equal 4". I think the goal of the Dhamma is to reach a state of understanding wherein compassion arises directly - untouched by sadness or anger or any notion of "I am feeling compassionate" or "I am a compassionate person". You might find it useful to search the archives for past discussions about dietary habits. Thanks again. With metta Andrew 23726 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:08am Subject: Re: Right Effort --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > > > > Regarding the noble truth of dukkha, I believe that both of us agree > that it means as it was stated by the Buddha: > > "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, > lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the > unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not > getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging- > aggregates are > dukkha." > Hi Victor, I know I am about to repeat what has been said many times before but this is very important; In short, the five aggregates of clinging are dukkha. No matter whether it is birth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, association with the unbeloved, separation from the loved, not getting what is wanted or, may I add, laughing, dancing, partying, -- it is the five aggregates that exist and they are dukkha. Kind regards, Ken 23727 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 1. for Sarah Dear Azita, (Howard, Nina, Christine, Jim, RobM & All). --- gazita2002 wrote: > > I smiled bec. I imagined you sitting there, reading and > thinking 'surely its got to be a bit better for these beings', > but no, its almost as bad!!!! > > I appreciate your comments, Sarah. It's difficult to discuss > A.D.D. 'A Dhamma Depression', not Attention Deficit Disorder, with > friends who aren't interested in the Dhamma; they think one should > just go out a have a jolly good time. > Maybe, just maybe at this stage, I'll see you in Thailand in > Oct. > > I am beginning to slowly understand A. Sujin's words of wisdom > about being courageous and cheerful. > > May we all have patience, courage and cheerfulness, ..... I’m glad to ‘see’ you smiling again, Azita. Don’t be too hard on your other friends -- I don’t think qualities such as kindness and consideration are the prerogative of those interested in the Dhamma and they may be showing these qualities when encouraging you to have a ‘jolly good time’ istead of having an A.D.D. Even friends interested in the Dhamma may encourage each other to go out to see a movie, have a meal or a hike by way of a break;-) In the end -- and even in the beginning for that matter -- I don’t think we can look to others for ‘patience, courage and cheerfulness’. We are ‘islands’ and there are only ever the six sense worlds. As Nina was saying in her series with A.Sujin, ‘seeing here is no different from seeing there’. To take it further, seeing with wise companions is no different from seeing with unwise companions. I raised the recent comments and a question of Nina’s about living naturally with lobha when we were in Bangkok recently. K.Sujin was saying that ‘clinging brings fear’ when there is a fear that living naturally with attachment will lead to a lack of awareness. She said "it seems that it’s not OK (to live as normal), but who knows what will happen next? It’s not the question of ‘let it’ or ‘not let it’ (i.e the attachment) arise.....Understand lobha as lobha, not making it different. This or that (lobha) is already conditioned.... As understanding develops panna will condition the way of living without thinking ‘I have to live like this or I have to do this or that’ ”. She also asked what one ‘gets from trying to control’. She stressed that this is just thinking about cetana (volition) before or after the arising of a particular reality. "It’s impossible to control cetana which arises with every citta and is already arising and falling away (when there is the idea of preparing some other volition or some impossible exertion)". In your other post you asked about ‘evil companions’. I was hoping to hear from others like Howard or Christine as I thought they’d add some compassionate responses. You quoted the following verse in this note: ..... A:> I was reading here on dsg. but can't remember where,and will quote: 'I'm blind , my eyes are destroyed. I've stumbled on a wilderness track. Even if I must crawl, I'll go on, but not with an evil companion'. The more I read this, the starker it becomes and it kind of reminds me of Ray Bradbury's stories [sci-fi]; however, I'm wondering what constitutes an evil companion. Is this evil companion someone who is truly evil, like a murderer, or does this refer to anyone who does not follow the Dhamma? > I think it means the latter, but would like other's comment on this.< ..... The verse (quoted in Christine’s post on admirable friends) is from the Theragaathaa (The Elders’ Verses 95).(*Jim, pls see note at end of post). It was told by Cakkhupaala Thera who was an arahant. You can read a summary of the story told in the Theragaathaa Comy here: http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/c/cakkhupaala_th.htm A different version of the story is also told in the Comy to the first verse in the Dhammapada which leads to the famous lines about mind being the forerunner of all evil states and leading to suffering. (Cakkhupala Thera became blind as a result of causing a woman to become blind in a previous life when he was a physician.) Cakkhupala’s young companion, recently ordained had just ‘sinned’ and Cakkhupala therefore refused to continue walking with him. I really don’t think of friends and companions we all have who don’t ‘follow the Dhamma’ as being ‘evil’. Someone recently posted a link to the Vyagghapajja Sutta (Conditions of Welfare) and another one which refer to the value of good friendship and also to the danger of ‘companionship and intimacy with evil-doers’ which clearly leads us to harm. I don’t see most our companions as being in this category. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-054.html I hope Howard can add more on this theme. Like him, I think that friends and family from any tradition or religion can give us inspiration and opportunities for kusala (wholesome)speech and action. As K.Sujin said “panna will condition the way of living”. By conditions and as a result of the fully developed panna, an arahant will no longer live a lay life at all. For us, we live the way there are the present conditions to live and I think it’s useless to speculate about how our lives would be if we were surrounded only by those with an appreciation of Dhamma, for example. (And of course, having a partner who has a fine appreciation of Dhamma is in any case no guarantee of an easy life, given all our inclinations and propensities for complicating issues and making life difficult;-)) ..... A:>I have been listening to tapes from the India trips and A. Sujin talks about being courageous: 'one has to be courageous and cheerful to understand any kind of reality which Sati is aware of--'< ...... This is always good to hear, Azita. It’ll be great if you’re able to join us soon - but still, all those same realities for sati to be aware of either way. Meantime, pls keep sharing your comments and ADDs with us all here. I look forward to further comments from anyone. With metta, Sarah p.s *Jim (& RobM)- We read that Cakkhupaalaa suffered from opthalmia. For the three months of the rainy season after his meeting with the Buddha, he didn’t lie down at all. the Dhp comy gives lots of details. In the Thag comy we also read he didn’t follow the doctor’s advice: “ ‘Better’, he thought, ‘is the allaying of the moral torments (kilesa) that that of eye-disease.’ Thus he neglected the latter and worked at his insight, so that eyes and torments perished at the same time. And he became a ‘dry-visioned’ arahant”. ..... I thought of you and others with eye problems. (RobM, I think this is a good example of (past) kamma-patha bringing results during the present life-time. We also see the effect of the other supporting conditions such as the refusal of the medicine and so on. Conditions are so complex, we never know what results will come at anytime.) In the Dhp comy there’s no reference to sukkhavipassaka. Jim, you may like to check the Thag comy Pali sometime. Also from Dhp comy we read that he encouraged himself: “Come now, brother Paalita, tell me this, Will you regard your eyes or the Religion of the Buddha? For in the round of existences without conceivable beginning, there is no counting the number of times you have been without eyes. But while unnumbered hundreds of Buddhas and thousands of Buddhas have passed, your experience does not cover the period of even a single Buddha. Now in this rainy season you resolved not to lie down for three months. Therefore let your eyes perish or decay. Keep only the Law of the Buddha, not your eyes.” Ooops - sounds like the opposite of all my other advice which is usually more like the short-sighted physician’s - i.e to lie down and take care of the eyes!! ======================= 23728 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:38am Subject: RE: [dsg] Sutta Nipata Comy Hi Kom, --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > The Sutta Nipata is a collection of 71 short suttas. Is > this what you are talking about? > > The comy is long. I could look up the comy on the specific > sutta. Giving you the entire comy would be tough. :-) ..... Well, Nina may be volunteering you to translate the entire text;-) I'll be happy to settle for occasional comments from the comy when a sutta is being discussed. The subject came up because Jim mentioned some interesting passages (about Buddhas -) and I'm always wishing I had the comy to refer to. I used to see Ven Saddhatissa when he was producing his translation of the Sn and I've often wished I'd encouraged him to add comy notes or a translation too at the time. This is an example of a post (to Erik) in which one of the suttas (Nanda’s Qus) was being discussed and some comy help would be useful if you have anything you can add. Never too late. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12393.html I’m sure I can dig up other threads too;-) or the passages Jim was referring to. Meanwhile, KenH and Victor are having an interesting discussion on the Thana sutta, AN Bk of 3s -- no comy notes anywhere in English. I’m sure everyone would be glad if there’s anything you can add. Sorry, I’ve lost the exact reference. Any help appreciated anytime - I know you’re very busy. Metta, Sarah ======= 23729 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I haven't asked you a question lately .... I’ve been keeping quiet and hoping you wouldn’t notice... .... so here's one. Which condtions > condition the arising of a consciousness prompted by body, speech or > mind? Is a prompted consciousness resultant (vipaka) because it is the > result of a prompt? If a salesman persuades me that something is > desirable is that desire resultant, javana, or both? ..... I understand the last qu best, so let me start with that: Hearing (the salesman) is vipaka (result of kamma) citta. The (prompted) desire arises with the javana cittas and is not resultant, but the vipaka is one of the conditions, along with root condition and many others for it to arise. The desire is accumulated and if sufficiently strong will lead to the purchase of the object. There are always so many conditions at work in an example like this - object condition, predominance condition,proximity condition, decisive support condition,repetition condition, conascence condition and more. We can talk about the javana cittas with desire being prompted (sasankhaarikam) in this case, but I don’t see how we can refer to the vipaka cittas as being prompted unless you say kamma is prompting its result which would be a rather unusual use of ‘prompted’ from an abhidhamma point of view. I’ve been appreciating your qus to others very much. As you mentioned to RobM, some conditions (ie. object and decisive support condition) include concepts. With regard to the path factor conditions, these are all cetasikas. Right action, speech and livelihood refer to the 3 virati (abstention) cetasikas which arise momentarily when abstaining from unwholesome action. Wrong action, speech and livelihood on the other hand are not cetasikas but refer to unwholesome actions accompanied by many moments of unwholesome intention and other factors. This is why, as I understand, they are not path condition. Similarly only cetasikas (good and bad) can be jhana condition. I think you asked some other qus about object condition. Let me know if there’s anything you and RobM didn’t sort out (which doesn’t mean I will:-)) Hope you also find qus for anyone else caught napping.... Metta, Sarah p.s I think the Vism thread is a great one already:-) You have to admit it’s even more exciting than H.P. ====== 23730 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] RobM's 24hr deadline (was Re: Right Effort) Hi RobM, Sorry for the delay - I'm not sure I can contribute further on this kamma-patha thread. In brief, the qu is whether all javana process cetana bring results or only kamma-patha as clarified below: ...... --- robmoult wrote:> > This is significantly different from my understanding. Nyanatiloka > defines kamma-patha as follows: > kamma-patha: 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds > of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. > I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): > - 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; > - 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; > - 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. > > Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of > defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, > the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder > forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not > constitute 'courses of action'. .... All agreed. ..... > > II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): > - 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual > intercourse; > - 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, > foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; > - 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. > > Both lists occur repeatedly, e.g. in A. X, 28, 176; M. 9; they are > explained in detail in M. 114, and in Com. to M. 9 (R. Und., p. 14), > Atthasalini Tr. I, 126ff. > > > > My understanding of what Nyanatiloka means by "Milder forms of > mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not > constitute 'courses of action'" is that 'courses of action' are > strong enough to condition rebirth linking consciousness whereas > milder forms of mental defilement can only condition future vipaka > during a course of existence (current existence or future existence). .... I understand these ‘milder forms’ are not abhisankhara bringing results, which I discussed before in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m16003.html ..... > > Nyanatiloka gives a number of textual reference at the end of his > defintion. I suspect that one of these might shed some light on this > issue. Sarah, I am away from my books right now. Could you check one > or more of these references and let me know what they say? I can > check more on Sunday. > > Does the CMA have anything to say about this (I don't have my copy > with me)? ..... I haven’t read anything in these references to suggest ‘milder forms’ bring results. In some of the refs under kamma-patha I think we read not only about results at birth, but also about power, influence, disease and other results during life. I’d be glad if you have any comments on any of the points in my old post (above) or any suggestions on why you think there are the differentiations in the 3 rounds (vattas), condtions and dependent origination between kilesa and kamma if all kilesa brings results. I don’t pretend to know the answers -- I think it’s a very tricky area and I’m just interested to explore it with you in the texts. Metta, Sarah ====== 23731 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear Sara, --- Sarah wrote: Sara: "This is why, as I > understand, they are not path condition. Similarly > only cetasikas (good > and bad) can be jhana condition." ------------------------------------------------------- That´s just the point I´ve asked to that good pal, The Self Assigned MICHAEL THE BUDDHA! Always in my pratice I´ve questioned myself about the fact that Jhana - that has a simple and objective definition, but a very hard way to perform - could be quite impossible at present days (to be a Sukkhavipassaka is much more adequate and easy to a dry worker). I thought that the wise MICHAEL THE BUDDHA could satisfy my doubts about it... but your words came at good time! Only Cetasikas can be Jhana condition. No consciousness exists apart from its concomitants. Both consciousness and its respective co-adjuncts arise and perish simultaneously. But there are some material qualitites that arise and perish simultaneously with the consciousness. To exclude them the third property of having a common object has being attributed. That which possesses these three characterictics must necessarily be endowed with the fourth - a common basis. And without a common basis, perhaps Jhana could be very hard to carry on... but it´s only a opinion of mine. I am still waiting the honourable words of the Great MICHAEL THE BUDDHA!!! ------------------------------------------------------- Sara: "Hope you also find qus for anyone else > caught napping...." Not at all, dear Sara! Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23732 From: slartibarfast_147 Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:51pm Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? Dear Peter, Not all are ignorant of the extreme suffering they inflict through bad/evil actions. Many are quite aware of the results, and do it quite intentionally, since they simply do not care. regards, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vajramantra" wrote: > Dear Nori, > > As far as I know: > > It is true that all suffering one experiences is created by one's own > negative actions. Nevertheless, bad deeds are committed out of > ignorance. Beings do not know or do not accept the law of karma, so > they engage in activities that bring about suffering. Thus, > understanding that no one is "evil", we are simply ignorant and that > is why we cause suffering to ourselves and to others, one can feel > compassion towards everyone. > > I hope this helps. > > Peter 23733 From: slartibarfast_147 Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 0:14am Subject: Re: Karma and reincarnation Hi peter, You don't really need any faith at all to practice Dhamma because all of its benefits (i.e. escape from suffering) is realizable in the here and now. You don't have to wait until the next life until you see its benefits, and so, for now you can just view the law of kamma as a novelty. It is not a required realization to convince yourself to practice dhamma. I used to dwell on this subject alot when I started reading and practicing Dhamma, but now I think about it less and less and only in a few cases. Let me explain why: First I asked myself "Why do I really want to know the truth about Kamma?; Why do I want verification for its existence?" ... and I suggest you ask yourself that question as well. Then I realized that it made no difference whether I knew or not since: 1) as I mentioned earlier, I didn't need to know it in order to convince myself whether or not to practice Dhamma since its results were verifiable by practice and observing its results, in the here and now; in this life. 2) Good actions which are done for the fruit of the actions are not really good actions. Likewise, bad actions which are decided not to be done for the sole reason of fearing its kammic results are still bad actions since it was initially their intention; in their hearts; in their minds. There is still one reason, though, I do want to know whether Kamma exists. It is this: I do not know what to think or feel when I see people in extreme suffering. People in third world countries starving or dying from disease, or war; people born with disabilities, genetic diseases which cause great suffering, etc. On one hand, if they suffer from, say, actions in past lives where they inflicted extreme suffering upon others while they were well aware of it, then i would not be so, or as, concerned; on the other hand, if people born into suffering and places of deprivation, did so, for no apparent reason then I would have much more compassion for them. I thought I'd just share my views with you. nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vajramantra" wrote: > Hello all, > > Is it possible to actually experience the law of karma and > reincarnation through the practice of meditation? I mean, Buddhism is > known as a dogma-free spiritual system, still, when we look around, > we often see that good people suffer while bad people rejoyce. I know > this is just the surface, and we always hear from teachers that karma > does work, even if we do not see it. But this is still a kind of > faith, and Buddha taught that we should not accept something just > because it comes from somebody we respect, but we should carefully > analyze and examine whether the teaching is correct or not. So how > can one examine whether karma and reincarnation are facts one can > experience and not only something we - as Buddhists - are supposed to > accept? I hope there is an answer that goes beyond "it must be true > because Buddha said so". > > > Peter 23734 From: vajramantra Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:25am Subject: Re: Karma and reincarnation Dear Nori, Thank you very much for sharing your valuable thoughts with me, with us. Peter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "slartibarfast_147" wrote: > Hi peter, > > You don't really need any faith at all to practice Dhamma because all > of its benefits (i.e. escape from suffering) is realizable in the > here and now. You don't have to wait until the next life until you > see its benefits, and so, for now you can just view the law of kamma > as a novelty. It is not a required realization to convince yourself > to practice dhamma. > > I used to dwell on this subject alot when I started reading and > practicing Dhamma, but now I think about it less and less and only in > a few cases. > > Let me explain why: > > First I asked myself "Why do I really want to know the truth about > Kamma?; Why do I want verification for its existence?" > ... and I suggest you ask yourself that question as well. > > Then I realized that it made no difference whether I knew or not > since: > > 1) as I mentioned earlier, I didn't need to know it in order to > convince myself whether or not to practice Dhamma since its results > were verifiable by practice and observing its results, in the here > and now; in this life. > > 2) Good actions which are done for the fruit of the actions are not > really good actions. Likewise, bad actions which are decided not to > be done for the sole reason of fearing its kammic results are still > bad actions since it was initially their intention; in their hearts; > in their minds. > > There is still one reason, though, I do want to know whether Kamma > exists. It is this: I do not know what to think or feel when I see > people in extreme suffering. People in third world countries starving > or dying from disease, or war; people born with disabilities, genetic > diseases which cause great suffering, etc. On one hand, if they > suffer from, say, actions in past lives where they inflicted extreme > suffering upon others while they were well aware of it, then i would > not be so, or as, concerned; on the other hand, if people born into > suffering and places of deprivation, did so, for no apparent reason > then I would have much more compassion for them. > > I thought I'd just share my views with you. > > > nori > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vajramantra" > wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > Is it possible to actually experience the law of karma and > > reincarnation through the practice of meditation? I mean, Buddhism > is > > known as a dogma-free spiritual system, still, when we look around, > > we often see that good people suffer while bad people rejoyce. I > know > > this is just the surface, and we always hear from teachers that > karma > > does work, even if we do not see it. But this is still a kind of > > faith, and Buddha taught that we should not accept something just > > because it comes from somebody we respect, but we should carefully > > analyze and examine whether the teaching is correct or not. So how > > can one examine whether karma and reincarnation are facts one can > > experience and not only something we - as Buddhists - are supposed > to > > accept? I hope there is an answer that goes beyond "it must be true > > because Buddha said so". > > > > > > Peter 23735 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:02am Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Victor (and Ken), Hope you don't mind my butting in: From: "yu_zhonghao" Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:57 am Subject: Re: Right Effort > The Buddha's teaching is to be understood as it is. The > attributes "conventional", "conceptual", or even "ultimate" is > irrelevant. The view "This teaching is conventional (or conceptual, > or ultimate)" is unnecessary. As I understand it, there are (conventional*) teachings whose meaning must be inferred and (ultimate*) teachings whose meaning is fully drawn out. I think that to say that all teaching must be accepted at face value is contrary to the Dhamma (no offense intended to anyone). "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." Anguttara Nikaya II.25 Neyyattha Sutta A Meaning to be Inferred Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-025.html I think the following is an example from the suttapitaka of abhidhamma and of conventional vs. ultimate truth*: "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. "And what is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. "And what is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor of Awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right view..." Majjhima Nikaya 117 Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta The Great Forty http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html *From Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' Paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desanaa) 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohaara-sacca), which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: samvrti-satya). The Buddha, in explaining his doctrine, sometimes used conventional language and sometimes the philosophical mode of expression which is in accordance whith undeluded insight into reality. In that ultimate sense, existence is a mere process of physical and mental phenomena within which, or beyond which, no real ego-entity nor any abiding substance can ever be found. Thus, whenever the suttas speak of man, woman or person, or of the rebirth of a being, this must not be taken as being valid in the ultimate sense, but as a mere conventional mode of speech (vohaara-vacana). 23736 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Howard and James My message was no doubt less clear than it could have/should have been. Sorry for any confusion caused. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > *did* > misunderstand! I'm sorry for the mistake, and I thank you for the > correction. > > With metta, > Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: ... > Hi Howard and Jon, > > Okay, that whole thread was a bust. I'm so turned around over that > thread I have no idea who was trying to make what point. That's > okay, now I have lost interest. Thanks for clearing that up for me > and my apologies to Jon. > > Metta, James 23737 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Mike Thanks for this comment. I'm not sure that we can say that *all* thinking about the [conventional] world falls within the rubric of 'unconjecturable', but I can see that any thinking about its origin would, because of the 'first cause' conundrum. Here is how Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' puts it: <> Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > This is pretty much the way I see it too. 'The world' outside of > this context seems to me to fall into the context of the > 'unconjecturables': > > "Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an > unconjecturable > that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & > vexation to > anyone who conjectured about it." > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.77 > Acintita Sutta > Unconjecturable 23738 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Larry Thanks for bringing up this point. Yes, 'noble ones' may refer (usually refers?) to all levels of enlightened beings. However, in the particular context of nirodha-samapatti I think its application would be limited to the anagami and arahant, for the reason given in the extract below from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary. Jon <> http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Larry: 5. For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana)." ... > Hi Jon, > > A note of clarification. In B. Nyanmoli's glossary "noble one" = > ariyan > (trainers + arahants). So I read this "benefit" to mean developed > concentration is a means to abide in nirodha samapatti for ariyans. 23739 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? Hi Nori and Peter, ----- Original Message ----- From: vajramantra To: Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 11:03 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? > Dear Nori, > > As far as I know: > > It is true that all suffering one experiences is created by one's own > negative actions. Nevertheless, bad deeds are committed out of > ignorance. Beings do not know or do not accept the law of karma, so > they engage in activities that bring about suffering. Thus, > understanding that no one is "evil", we are simply ignorant and that > is why we cause suffering to ourselves and to others, one can feel > compassion towards everyone. "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there..."(Vis. XVI) I think it's more useful to think of compassion, good, evil and so on as arising and subsiding according to conditions, rather than in terms of 'beings', which are concepts. Compassion arises with understanding of the nature of beings and of suffering--no one who 'should' feel compassion and no one for whom one should feel compassion, ultimately. Just my opinion! mike 23740 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 1. for Sarah Hi, Sarah (and Azita, and all) - Sarah, at a couple places in the following you ask that I might add a bit. Actually, I don't really have a coherent response to make, but I will provide a few brief comments. In a message dated 7/29/03 4:53:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Dear Azita, (Howard, Nina, Christine, Jim, RobM &All). > > --- gazita2002 wrote: > > > > I smiled bec. I imagined you sitting there, reading and > >thinking 'surely its got to be a bit better for these beings', > > but no, its almost as bad!!!! > > > >I appreciate your comments, Sarah. It's difficult to discuss > >A.D.D. 'A Dhamma Depression', not Attention Deficit Disorder, with > >friends who aren't interested in the Dhamma; they think one should > >just go out a have a jolly good time. > > Maybe, just maybe at this stage, I'll see you in Thailand in > >Oct. > > > > I am beginning to slowly understand A. Sujin's words of wisdom > >about being courageous and cheerful. > > > > May we all have patience, courage and cheerfulness, > ..... > > I’m glad to ‘see’ you smiling again, Azita. Don’t be too hard on your > other friends -- I don’t think qualities such as kindness and > consideration are the prerogative of those interested in the Dhamma and > they may be showing these qualities when encouraging you to have a ‘jolly > good time’ istead of having an A.D.D. Even friends interested in the > Dhamma may encourage each other to go out to see a movie, have a meal or a > hike by way of a break;-) > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with you Sarah. Perhaps there is some deficiency in terms of literal content in what the friends are saying, but the sense of it, to walk lightly in the world, is helpful, I think, for Buddhists and non-Buddhists alike. It's not so much that "entertainments" are needed, but that an "unclenching" and a "lightness" are needed. -------------------------------------------------- > > In the end -- and even in the beginning for that matter -- I don’t think > we can look to others for ‘patience, courage and cheerfulness’. We are > ‘islands’ and there are only ever the six sense worlds. As Nina was saying > in her series with A.Sujin, ‘seeing here is no different from seeing > there’. To take it further, seeing with wise companions is no different > from seeing with unwise companions. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, yes and no. It is easier to learn from wise companions than unwise companions. But I do think that based on a careful study of the Buddha's teachings, teachings mulled over again and again until there is a deep imbibing of them, the mind becomes conditioned to learn, and to apprehend with wisdom, under all circumstances and from all people. Eventually, to paraphrase what the Tibetans have said, it becomes possible to see all things as Dhamma, hear all sounds as mantra, and experience all people as Buddha. There is nowhere we can look that we will not see the truth of the Dhamma revealed. ---------------------------------------------------- > > I raised the recent comments and a question of Nina’s about living > naturally with lobha when we were in Bangkok recently. K.Sujin was > saying that ‘clinging brings fear’ when there is a fear that living > naturally with attachment will lead to a lack of awareness. She said "it > seems that it’s not OK (to live as normal), but who knows what will happen > next? It’s not the question of ‘let it’ or ‘not let it’ (i.e the > attachment) arise.....Understand lobha as lobha, not making it different. > This or that (lobha) is already conditioned.... As understanding develops > panna will condition the way of living without thinking ‘I have to live > like this or I have to do this or that’ â€?. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Very "Zen"! ;-) ----------------------------------------------- > > She also asked what one ‘gets from trying to control’. She stressed that > this is just thinking about cetana (volition) before or after the arising > of a particular reality. "It’s impossible to control cetana which arises > with every citta and is already arising and falling away (when there is > the idea of preparing some other volition or some impossible exertion)". > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: This is a true and interesting point. It is very important, however, to be as aware as possible of volition, and of what is willed, whenever possible, so that one can avoid unconscious papanca which embellishes akusala cetana and so that one can support by awareness the furtherance of kusala cetana. One is always a victim when awareness is missing. ------------------------------------------------------- > > In your other post you asked about ‘evil companions’. I was hoping to hear > from others like Howard or Christine as I thought they’d add some > compassionate responses. You quoted the following verse in this note: > ..... > A:> I was reading here on dsg. but can't remember where,and will > quote: > 'I'm blind , my eyes are destroyed. > I've stumbled on a wilderness track. > Even if I must crawl, I'll go on, > but not with an evil companion'. > > The more I read this, the starker it becomes and it kind of > reminds me of Ray Bradbury's stories [sci-fi]; > however, I'm wondering what constitutes an evil companion. > Is this evil companion someone who is truly evil, like a murderer, > or does this refer to anyone who does not follow the Dhamma? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: There are "good" and "evil" people to be found among all religionists, and among irreligionists as well. And if one looks carefully, there is goodness to be found even in those who seem to be clearly "evil". Given that one stays mindful and cautiously avoids being led astray, there is much to learn from all sources, I believe. In this regard, the development of the Brahma viharas is useful not only to bring joy and calm to oneself, and to enable one to act wholesomely and harmlessly in the world, but it also serves as protection for oneself. The Brahma viharas, it seems to me, create an envelope of security and peace about oneself, enabling one to learn from all sources while remaining unstained. [I don't mean to imply that the Brahma viharas are a substitute for the realization of nibbana, of course. Nothing is.] ---------------------------------------------------- > >I think it means the latter, but would like other's comment on this.< > ..... > > The verse (quoted in Christine’s post on admirable friends) is from the > Theragaathaa (The Elders’ Verses 95).(*Jim, pls see note at end of post). > > It was told by Cakkhupaala Thera who was an arahant. You can read a > summary of the story told in the Theragaathaa Comy here: > http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/c/cakkhupaala_th.htm > > A different version of the story is also told in the Comy to the first > verse in the Dhammapada which leads to the famous lines about mind being > the forerunner of all evil states and leading to suffering. (Cakkhupala > Thera became blind as a result of causing a woman to become blind in a > previous life when he was a physician.) > > Cakkhupala’s young companion, recently ordained had just ‘sinned’ and > Cakkhupala therefore refused to continue walking with him. > > I really don’t think of friends and companions we all have who don’t > ‘follow the Dhamma’ as being ‘evil’. Someone recently posted a link to the > Vyagghapajja Sutta (Conditions of Welfare) and another one which refer to > the value of good friendship and also to the danger of ‘companionship and > intimacy with evil-doers’ which clearly leads us to harm. I don’t see most > our companions as being in this category. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-054.html > > I hope Howard can add more on this theme. Like him, I think that friends > and family from any tradition or religion can give us inspiration and > opportunities for kusala (wholesome)speech and action. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: We are certainly in agreement on this matter, Sarah. --------------------------------------------------- As K.Sujin said> > “panna will condition the way of livingâ€?. By conditions and as a result of > the fully developed panna, an arahant will no longer live a lay life at > all. For us, we live the way there are the present conditions to live and > I think it’s useless to speculate about how our lives would be if we were > surrounded only by those with an appreciation of Dhamma, for example. (And > of course, having a partner who has a fine appreciation of Dhamma is in > any case no guarantee of an easy life, given all our inclinations and > propensities for complicating issues and making life difficult;-)) > ..... > A:>I have been listening to tapes from the India trips and A. Sujin > talks about being courageous: > 'one has to be courageous and cheerful to understand any kind of > reality which Sati is aware of--'< > ...... > This is always good to hear, Azita. > > It’ll be great if you’re able to join us soon - but still, all those same > realities for sati to be aware of either way. Meantime, pls keep sharing > your comments and ADDs with us all here. > > I look forward to further comments from anyone. > > With metta, > > Sarah > > p.s *Jim (& RobM)- We read that Cakkhupaalaa suffered from opthalmia. For > the three months of the rainy season after his meeting with the Buddha, he > didn’t lie down at all. the Dhp comy gives lots of details. In the Thag > comy we also read he didn’t follow the doctor’s advice: “ ‘Better’, he > thought, ‘is the allaying of the moral torments (kilesa) that that of > eye-disease.’ Thus he neglected the latter and worked at his insight, so > that eyes and torments perished at the same time. And he became a > ‘dry-visioned’ arahantâ€?. > ..... > I thought of you and others with eye problems. (RobM, I think this is a > good example of (past) kamma-patha bringing results during the present > life-time. We also see the effect of the other supporting conditions such > as the refusal of the medicine and so on. Conditions are so complex, we > never know what results will come at anytime.) In the Dhp comy there’s no > reference to sukkhavipassaka. Jim, you may like to check the Thag comy > Pali sometime. > > Also from Dhp comy we read that he encouraged himself: > > “Come now, brother Paalita, tell me this, Will you regard your eyes or the > Religion of the Buddha? For in the round of existences without > conceivable beginning, there is no counting the number of times you have > been without eyes. But while unnumbered hundreds of Buddhas and thousands > of Buddhas have passed, your experience does not cover the period of even > a single Buddha. Now in this rainy season you resolved not to lie down for > three months. Therefore let your eyes perish or decay. Keep only the Law > of the Buddha, not your eyes.â€? > > Ooops - sounds like the opposite of all my other advice which is usually > more like the short-sighted physician’s - i.e to lie down and take care of > the eyes!! > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23741 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:04am Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Ken, Thank you for your comments. The Buddha's teaching is about dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. It is not about what exists and what does not. The Buddha's teaching is not to be understood from the perspective regarding existence and non-existence. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: [snip] > > Hi Victor, > > I know I am about to repeat what has been said many times > before but this is very important; > > In short, the five aggregates of clinging are dukkha. > > No matter whether it is birth, aging, death, sorrow, > lamentation, pain, association with the unbeloved, > separation from the loved, not getting what is wanted or, > may I add, laughing, dancing, partying, -- it is the five > aggregates that exist and they are dukkha. > > Kind regards, > Ken 23742 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? Hi Nori, I think there are a couple of answers that come from the Suttas on this question.....the first would come from the Duggata Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn15-011.html " At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, overwhelmed with hard times, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced just this sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.' "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." So from this we can see that suffering is universal, we have all reaped the consequences of unwholesome actions, thoughts and speech. I think this understanding naturally gives rise to compassion. Also the very practice of arousing compassion is wholesome and thus beneficial as an antidote to hatred or pride. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "slartibarfast_147" To: Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 8:31 PM Subject: [dsg] If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? > Greetings to all, > > I hope I don't sound like a jerk asking this question, but anyway > here it is: > > - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower life > forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What is > the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? > > Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know what > to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for dinner > or refrain from eating chicken. > > > with metta, > nori 23743 From: dwlemen Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:06am Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? (math) Everyone, This has reminded me of a question I have had. I'll post it here and see if anyone has any thoughts. As I've heard, there is no beginning point according to Buddhist philosophy. Therefore, going back, we have been through an infinite amount of lives. However, mathmatically, if the number of lives is infinte, then the amount of bad (and good) Kamma must also be infinite. Therefore, aren't we then forced to be sort of "balanced" in terms of our Kamma? Hope that makes sense... :-) Peace, Dave --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > I think there are a couple of answers that come from the Suttas on this > question.....the first would come from the Duggata Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn15-011.html > > " At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable > beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though > beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & > wandering on. When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, overwhelmed > with hard times, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced just this > sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.' > "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A > beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and > fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus > experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the > cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, > enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." > > So from this we can see that suffering is universal, we have all reaped > the consequences of unwholesome actions, thoughts and speech. I think this > understanding naturally gives rise to compassion. Also the very practice of > arousing compassion is wholesome and thus beneficial as an antidote to > hatred or pride. Ray > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "slartibarfast_147" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 8:31 PM > Subject: [dsg] If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? > > > > Greetings to all, > > > > I hope I don't sound like a jerk asking this question, but anyway > > here it is: > > > > - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > > places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower life > > forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > > humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What is > > the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? > > > > Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know what > > to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for dinner > > or refrain from eating chicken. > > > > > > with metta, > > nori 23744 From: vajramantra Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:29am Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? (math) IMO: If I check the actions committed by myself and others in the world, I guess we commit a lot more harmful acts than good deeds. Consequently, during our infinite lives we have accumulated much more bad karma than good. So I think that is why there is no karmic balance. Peter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" wrote: > Everyone, > > This has reminded me of a question I have had. I'll post it here and > see if anyone has any thoughts. > > As I've heard, there is no beginning point according to Buddhist > philosophy. Therefore, going back, we have been through an infinite > amount of lives. However, mathmatically, if the number of lives is > infinte, then the amount of bad (and good) Kamma must also be > infinite. Therefore, aren't we then forced to be sort of "balanced" > in terms of our Kamma? > > Hope that makes sense... :-) > > Peace, > > > Dave > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" > wrote: > > Hi Nori, > > > > I think there are a couple of answers that come from the Suttas > on this > > question.....the first would come from the Duggata Sutta: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn15-011.html > > > > " At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable > > beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, > though > > beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are > transmigrating & > > wandering on. When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, > overwhelmed > > with hard times, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced > just this > > sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.' > > "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. > A > > beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance > and > > fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have > you thus > > experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the > > cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated > things, > > enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." > > > > So from this we can see that suffering is universal, we have all > reaped > > the consequences of unwholesome actions, thoughts and speech. I > think this > > understanding naturally gives rise to compassion. Also the very > practice of > > arousing compassion is wholesome and thus beneficial as an antidote > to > > hatred or pride. Ray > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "slartibarfast_147" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 8:31 PM > > Subject: [dsg] If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? > > > > > > > Greetings to all, > > > > > > I hope I don't sound like a jerk asking this question, but anyway > > > here it is: > > > > > > - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > > > places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower > life > > > forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > > > humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? > What is > > > the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? > > > > > > Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know > what > > > to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for > dinner > > > or refrain from eating chicken. > > > > > > > > > with metta, > > > nori 23745 From: dwlemen Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:02am Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? (math) But, mathmatically, my understanding is that, at infinity, greater- than and less-than break down. So, for example, if we were to have created 2 "units" of bad to every "unit" of good, at infinity, it balances out. I have created an infinite amount of good and 2x infinite amount of bad... but there is no such thing as 2xI so it just becomes I. So it balances. But, even is we assume the case where there can be 2xI, then I'd need to generate an infinite amount of good Kamma to to balance myself, otherwise, I will have to forever be under the effects of that infinite amount of bad Kamma. My assumption is that this is just an academic, "fun" exercise (in futility) and will ultimately fall into one of those leaves that were never explained, but, still... it is an interesting paradox to consider. Peace, Dave --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vajramantra" wrote: > IMO: If I check the actions committed by myself and others in the > world, I guess we commit a lot more harmful acts than good deeds. > Consequently, during our infinite lives we have accumulated much more > bad karma than good. So I think that is why there is no karmic > balance. > > Peter > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" > wrote: > > Everyone, > > > > This has reminded me of a question I have had. I'll post it here > and > > see if anyone has any thoughts. > > > > As I've heard, there is no beginning point according to Buddhist > > philosophy. Therefore, going back, we have been through an > infinite > > amount of lives. However, mathmatically, if the number of lives is > > infinte, then the amount of bad (and good) Kamma must also be > > infinite. Therefore, aren't we then forced to be sort > of "balanced" > > in terms of our Kamma? > > > > Hope that makes sense... :-) > > > > Peace, > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" > > wrote: > > > Hi Nori, > > > > > > I think there are a couple of answers that come from the > Suttas > > on this > > > question.....the first would come from the Duggata Sutta: > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn15-011.html > > > > > > " At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an > inconstruable > > > beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, > > though > > > beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are > > transmigrating & > > > wandering on. When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, > > overwhelmed > > > with hard times, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced > > just this > > > sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.' > > > "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes > transmigration. > > A > > > beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by > ignorance > > and > > > fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have > > you thus > > > experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling > the > > > cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated > > things, > > > enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." > > > > > > So from this we can see that suffering is universal, we have > all > > reaped > > > the consequences of unwholesome actions, thoughts and speech. I > > think this > > > understanding naturally gives rise to compassion. Also the very > > practice of > > > arousing compassion is wholesome and thus beneficial as an > antidote > > to > > > hatred or pride. Ray 23746 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] wrong path factors Dear Rob M, op 28-07-2003 01:15 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > The last three path factors > from my >> previous message are not cetasikas: >> - wrong speech (miccha-vaca) >> - wrong bodily action (miccha-kammanta) >> - wrong livelihood (miccha-ajiva) >> These last three can be considered to be path factors, but they > are not >> conditioning states of path condition." N: Mny different akusala cittas accompanied by akusala cetasikas are involved with these three. Thus, they are not three distinct dhammas and as such they are not conditioning factors. Nina. 23747 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:18am Subject: FW: Cmy Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, 4 B Cmy Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, 4 B bhagavaapi mahaasammatapave.niya.m okkaakaraajava.mse jaato, raahulabhaddopi. Both the Exalted One and Lucky Rahula were born into the royal dynasty of King Okkaka, descending from King Maha-Sammata. bhagavaapi sa"nkhe pakkhittakhiirasadiso suparisuddhajaatikhattiyakule jaato, raahulabhaddopi. Both the Exalted One and Lucky Rahula were born into the warrior clan, a superior family, pure like milk put into a conchshell. bhagavaapi rajja.m pahaaya pabbajito, raahulabhaddopi. Both the Exalted One and Lucky Rahula gave up the kingdom and entered monkhood. bhagavatopi sariira.m dvatti.msamahaapurisalakkha.napa.tima.n.dita.m The Exalted One¹s body was adorned with the thirtytwo characteristics of a Great Man, devanagaresu samussitaratanatora.na.m viya sabbapaaliphullo paaricchattako viya and, being like a jeweled gateway elevated in the cities of divine beings, and like a blooming coral tree, ca atimanohara.na.m, raahulabhaddassaapi. both the Exalted One and Lucky Rahula were of striking beauty. iti dvepi abhiniihaarasampannaa, dvepi raajapabbajitaa, Thus, both of them were full of aspirations, both of them, being of royal birth, had gone forth. dvepi khattiyasukhumaalaa, dvepi suva.n.nava.n.naa, Both of them were delicate, being of royal family, both had a golden complexion. dvepi lakkha.nasampannaa ekamagga.m pa.tipannaa pa.tipaa.tiyaa gacchantaana.m Both of them, provided with distinguishing features, entered upon and walked along the same way. dvinna.m candama.n.dalaana.m dvinna.m suuriyama.n.dalaana.m dvinna.m sakkasuyaamasantusitasunimmitavasavattimahaabrahmaadiina.m siriyaa siri.m abhibhavamaanaa viya viroci.msu. Both of them were brilliant, and they were with their splendour as it were surpassing the glory of the crests of moon and sun, and of the divine Kings: Sakka, Suyama, Santusita, Nimitta Vasavatti, the Great Brahma and so on. English: Both the Exalted One and Lucky Rahula were born into the royal dynasty of King Okkaka, descending from King Maha-Sammatta. Both the Exalted One and Lucky Rahula were born into the warrior clan, a superior family, pure like milk put into a conchshell. Both the Exalted One and Lucky Rahula gave up the kingdom and entered monkhood. The Exalted One¹s body was adorned with the thirtytwo characteristics of a Great Man, and, being like a jeweled gateway elevated in the cities of divine beings and like a blooming coral tree, both the Exalted One and Lucky Rahula were of striking beauty. Thus, both of them were full of aspirations, both of them, being of royal birth, had gone forth. Both of them were delicate, being of royal family, both had a golden complexion. Both of them, being provided with distinguishing features, entered upon and walked along the same way. Both of them were brilliant, and were with their splendour as it were surpassing the glory of the crests of moon and sun, and of the divine Kings: Sakka, Suyama, Santusita, Nimitta Vasavatti, the Great Brahma and so on. ***** Nina. 23748 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Larry, sorry I misunderstood you. op 28-07-2003 23:47 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Larry: Incidentally, I have been trying to understand what concentration > is in > the context of citta process. The best I could come up with is maybe it > is a mild "repeat" inducement causing the consciousness to (sometimes) > repeat rather than going on to something else. Could you clarify this? > > Nina: You probably think of the last part of the text you quote: .... L: >> No. I am thinking of not wandering. Concentration is characterized as > not wandering. What does this mean in citta process? How can citta > process "not wander"? N: Concentration is characterized as non distraction, is this what you mean? It is the condition that citta only experiences one object, and it accompanies each citta. In samatha it is non-distraction as to the meditation subject. It falls away with each citta, and then it accompanies the succeeding citta. L: As for piti, you are misunderstanding me. All I am suggesting is that > there is a _slight_ sense of joy when there is mindfulness. > This joy is the joy of nonattachment. Maybe it isn't the same for > everyone. N: You are right, it is not the same. For me: no doubt that 90% or more of the time it accompanies lobha. And I make it worse: I start to laugh about the whole show and then again there is piti with lobha, while laughing. But Larry, this is natural, don't you have this experience in your life, that there are many moments of lobha and piti? And that it is so easy to take the akusala piti for the kusala piti? Now all our correspondance about piti reminds me more of this cetasika. As for piti with mindfulness, I believe that the main thing we should ask ourselves: how much understanding is there? What do I understand? As I see it, understanding is more important then piti. I feel, if there is piti it is for me personally best not to pay much attention to it, it is gone immediately. If I pay attention to it, lobha again. L: Lastly, is concentration the proximate cause of dry insight? If so, is > this concentration different in any way from ORDINARY concentration? N:Concentration accompanies each citta and it is conditioned by the citta it accompanies. Therefore, there are many shades and varieties of it. It can be kusala, akusala, or neither kusala nor akusala (vipaka and kiriya). In the Vis we have to look at the context where it is said that concentration is the proximate cause of understanding. Those who have developed jhana can have jhana as the base or proximate cause of understanding. Jhanacitta is then an object of insight. When one develops insight without developing jhana there is also right concentration with the citta accompanied by right understanding, but this concentration is not a base for understanding such as is the case for those who develop jhana. It just performs its function of focussing on the dhamma that appears, and, as insight develops, focussing on the three characteristics. It performs its function together with all the other path-factors, such as right mindfulness, right effort, etc. Right understanding takes the lead. It is said in the teachings that when there is right awareness and right understanding of a nåma or rúpa there is at that moment higher síla (adhisila), higher concentration (adhicitta) and higher paññå (adhipanna). They lead to the eradication of all defilements, to the highest goal. It is natural that concentration and calm grow as panna develops. It is also said that there is purity (visuddhi) of sila, citta and panna. There is no idea of my sila, citta and panna. Without satipatthana there cannot be this kind of purity, visuddhi. +++++++++++++++++++++ Now your other mail: Larry: Vism. XI, 121: ..."the development of absorption concentration provides them with the benefit of insight by serving as the proximate cause for insight, and so too does access concentration as a method of arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances]." After considering your objections I agree "wide open conditions" refers to disciplined conditions (restraints of all kinds), not dry insight. Do you know of any source, ancient or modern, that extensively discusses dry insight, especially the role of concentration therein? N: The monk has to live like the arahat, away from sense pleasures, he lives in wide open conditions. The jhana practioner lives temporarily in wide open conditions, the hindrances are suppressed, not eradicated. The arahat (no matter he practised dry insight or jhana and insight) has eradicated the hindrances. He lives in wide open conditions, never to be disturbed by defilements. Concentration and dry insight: just as I said above: concentration is one of the path factors performing its function. Each cetasika performs its own function. We had many posts about dry insight (see U.P.) with quotes of texts. I am not so interested at modern articles, I am only interested at the Tipitaka and Commentary. Nina. 23749 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: If there is Kamma? (math) Hi, Dave - In a message dated 7/29/2003 11:06:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, dwlemen@y... writes: > Everyone, > > This has reminded me of a question I have had. I'll post it here and > see if anyone has any thoughts. > > As I've heard, there is no beginning point according to Buddhist > philosophy. Therefore, going back, we have been through an infinite > amount of lives. However, mathmatically, if the number of lives is > infinte, then the amount of bad (and good) Kamma must also be > infinite. Therefore, aren't we then forced to be sort of > "balanced" > in terms of our Kamma? > > Hope that makes sense... :-) > > Peace, > > > Dave =========================== No, the kammic traces needn't be infinite. As time goes on, new traces accumulate and old traces are expunged (by fruition), allowing for the possibility of only a finite amount of kammic accumulations at any point in time. Sometimes the store of kammic traces will increase and sometimes decrease, depending on conditions. With metta, Howard 23750 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 0:02pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Mike (and Ken), Thank you for your comments and references. Understanding the Buddha's teaching as it is, is not about accepting the Buddha's teaching at face value. The Buddha's teaching is about dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. It is not about what exists, what does not exist, or what is real, what is concept, or what is conventional, what is ultimate. When one preoccupies oneself over what exists/does not exist, what is real/concept, what is conventional/ultimate, and takes those preoccupations as the Buddha's teaching, the Buddha's teaching is not understood as it is. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Victor (and Ken), > > Hope you don't mind my butting in: [snip] 23751 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 0:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? Hi Mike and all, Pardon me for butting in as well. I would say that the view "The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there" is one pernicious view presented in Visudhimagga. I would suggest looking into Anguttara Nikaya V.57 Upajjhatthana Sutta Subjects for Contemplation http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an05-057.html regarding contemplation on kamma. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Nori and Peter, [snip] > The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there..."(Vis. XVI) > > I think it's more useful to think of compassion, good, evil and so on as > arising and subsiding according to conditions, rather than in terms of > 'beings', which are concepts. Compassion arises with understanding of the > nature of beings and of suffering--no one who 'should' feel compassion and > no one for whom one should feel compassion, ultimately. Just my opinion! > > mike 23752 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? Hi Nori, All This may have been covered. But another reason to develop compassion is because it is a lofty and detached mental state beneficial for the one developing compassion as well as those people that encounter such a one. It helps clear the mind and establish beneficial conditions for cultivating insight and overcoming greater amounts of suffering. If no loftier (enlightened) states are achieved, it is a way to at least achieve a heavenly rebirth TG In a message dated 7/28/2003 11:20:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, athel60@t... writes: > Greetings to all, > > > >I hope I don't sound like a jerk asking this question, but anyway > >here it is: > > > >- If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > >places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower > life > >forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > >humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What > is > >the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? > > > >Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know > what > >to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for > dinner > >or refrain from eating chicken. > > > > > >with metta, > >nori > 23753 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:38pm Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "slartibarfast_147" wrote: > Greetings to all, > - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower life > forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What is > the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? > > Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know what > to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for dinner > or refrain from eating chicken. Dear Nori, Welcome to the list. Not sure where eating or not eating chicken relates to your first question? Peter wrote:> It is true that all suffering one experiences is created by one's own > negative actions. Nevertheless, bad deeds are committed out of > ignorance. Beings do not know or do not accept the law of karma, so > they engage in activities that bring about suffering. Thus, > understanding that no one is "evil", we are simply ignorant and that > is why we cause suffering to ourselves and to others, one can feel > compassion towards everyone. _ and you replied: NORI: Not all are ignorant of the extreme suffering they inflict through bad/evil actions. Many are quite aware of the results, and do it quite intentionally, since they simply do not care. ------------------+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I think anyone who does harm must be acting out of ignorance of the law of kamma. How could anyone even kill a mosquito if they knew the kammic result of killing? We can't change the realm of animals or insects to be human so it is good to reflect "all beings are owners of their kamma, whatever they do of that their will be the heir": ""Equanimity is characterized as promoting the aspect of neutrality towards beings. its function is to see equality in beings. It is manifested as the quieting of resentment and approval. its proximate cause is seeing ownership of deeds (kamma) thus: "Beings are owners of their deeds. Whose (if not theirs) is the choice by which they will become happy, or will get free from suffering, or will not fall away from the success they have reached?" It succeeds when it makes resentment and approval subside, and it fails when it produces the equanimity of unknowing, which is that (worldly-minded indifference of ignorance) based on the home-life.""Visuddhimagga (lX, 96) On the other hand sometimes we have the chance to feed animals or maybe we see an insect in the toilet bowl and carefully pick them out - it is the time for compassion. RobertK > 23754 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > Dear Sara, > --- Sarah wrote: > Sara: "This is why, as I > > understand, they are not path condition. Similarly > > only cetasikas (good > > and bad) can be jhana condition." > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > That´s just the point I´ve asked to that good > pal, The Self Assigned MICHAEL THE BUDDHA! Hi Icarvs, I'm sorry, I haven't been keeping up on all of the posts, could you tell me who Michael the Buddha is? Is this a real Buddha or a nickname for a member? Sorry, just trying to keep up. Metta, James 23755 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Hi Sarah, Thanks for your explanations. While flipping through CMA I noticed that some consciousnesses are classified as prompted or unprompted and I was wondering why "promptedness" isn't one of the 24 conditions. It makes sense that it is because promptedness is a combination of several conditions. And the same reasoning applies to why the path factors wrong action, speech, and livelihood are not path conditions (because they are combinations of conditions). I'll buy it thanks to your prompt. Larry 23756 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Hi Jon, Thanks for your clarification on nirodha samapatti: that only nonreturners and arahants can practice it. Good job. Larry 23757 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:57pm Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? (math) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" wrote: > Everyone, > > This has reminded me of a question I have had. I'll post it here and > see if anyone has any thoughts. > > As I've heard, there is no beginning point according to Buddhist > philosophy. Therefore, going back, we have been through an infinite > amount of lives. However, mathmatically, if the number of lives is > infinte, then the amount of bad (and good) Kamma must also be > infinite. Therefore, aren't we then forced to be sort of "balanced" > in terms of our Kamma? > > Hope that makes sense... :-) > > Peace, > > > Dave Hi Dave, This is a very interesting point. Yes I agree with you that in the grand scheme of things, kamma must ultimately balance out…if there is no beginning and time is infinite there would never be a time when bad karma would be more in abundance than good karma, on a cosmic scale that is. Of course, at any one point in the karma stream, like an individual lifetime, one can be more abundant than the other, but ultimately that doesn't matter. I think that you make a very good point, at least indirectly, that we shouldn't pursue good karma in the hopes that it will get us anywhere. Ultimately, the bad karma is bound to occur again and balance everything out. The only true goal is to reach nibbana and eradicate all karma, then the wheel of samsara is halted for good. Metta, James 23758 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Nina: "There is no idea of my sila, citta and panna. Without satipatthana there cannot be this kind of purity, visuddhi." Hi Nina, I agree. I wonder why there is so little discussion of satipatthana in Visuddhimagga. Maybe because it is a discussion of the path of jhana. I notice that 'proximate cause' is not a strict category. Rather, it seems like one of many possible ways of viewing an object. Perhaps we could say awareness of realities (satipatthana) is also a proximate cause of panna. Larry 23759 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:30pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 2. What is understanding? Understanding (pa~n~naa) is of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it all would accomplidsh neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge associated with profitable consciousness. 23760 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Hi Kom, Would you care to explain "insight knowledge" and "profitable consciousness" in the following sentence? Vism XIV, 2: What is understanding? Understanding (pa~n~naa) is of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge associated with profitable consciousness. 23761 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Nina: "There is no idea of my sila, citta and panna. Without > satipatthana there cannot be this kind of purity, visuddhi." > > Hi Nina, > > I agree. I wonder why there is so little discussion of satipatthana in > Visuddhimagga. Maybe because it is a discussion of the path of jhana. I > notice that 'proximate cause' is not a strict category. Rather, it seems > like one of many possible ways of viewing an object. Perhaps we could > say awareness of realities (satipatthana) is also a proximate cause of > panna. > _________ Dear Larry, Buddhaghosa set out the complete path for the highest type of arahant who has mastery of jhana and the 4 discriminations. It doesn't mean that everyone has to go this very supreme way. Sammasammadhi (right concentration) also occurs when there is satipatthana in daily life. It focuses on nama or rupa, but is khanika, momentary. When there is vipassana nana samadhi is powerful for those brief moments. Robert 23762 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear Buddhatrue(James): Buddhatrue: "I'm sorry, I haven't been keeping up on all of the posts, could you > tell me who Michael the Buddha is? Is this a real Buddha or a > nickname for a member? Sorry, just trying to keep up." --------------------------------------------------------------------- James, MICHAEL THE BUDDHA is a good and affectionate soul, despite his extemporaneous stands and radical opinions. If you go to http://www.geocities.com/Michaelbuddha/ you´ll find all of his interesting remarks. Sometimes he himself posts some material by Yahoo mail to me, to Sarah and others. And we do reply to him appropriately! Personally, I would prefer to call him a Padmasambhava´s avatar, but he will keep his stand on and on: he is MICHAEL THE BUDDHA... so, let it be! Metta, Ícarvs 23763 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:20pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:38 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) > > > Hi Kom, > > Would you care to explain "insight knowledge" and "profitable > consciousness" in the following sentence? > > Vism XIV, 2: What is understanding? Understanding (panna) is of many > sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it > all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, > besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind > intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge > associated with profitable consciousness. > I need to pick up my copy of vism in storage first... My questions (to myself) in order to answer your question is: 1) What is meant by understanding (panna) in the first part of this paragraph? 2) It's pretty clear that insight knowledge is panna, but is it panna confined to Satipatthana only? These two questions probably would be answered in the context / further explanations in the text. There is a point that may help. For the profitable consciousness, kusala states are most likely meant. Here, the text excludes panna that is con-ascent with resultant (vipaka) and functional (kiriya) states, and hence specifically mean panna in the impulsion (javana) process. kom 23764 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear LBIDD: LIBDD:"I noticed that > some consciousnesses are classified as prompted or > unprompted and I was > wondering why "promptedness" isn't one of the 24 > conditions. It makes > sense that it is because promptedness is a > combination of several > conditions." ----------------------------------------------------- Only to add, these combinations form: The Eight Great Resultants - Attha Kamavicara Vipaka Cittani 4) 39 One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with pleasure, and connected with knowledge. 5) 40 One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with pleasure, and combined with knowledge. 6) 41 One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with pleasure, and uncombined with knowledge. 7) 42 One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with pleasure, and uncombined with knowledge. 8) 43 One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with indifference, and combined with knowledge. 9) 44 One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with indifference, and combined with knowledge. 10) 45 One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with indifference, and uncombined with knowledge. 11) 46 One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with indifference and uncombined with knowledge. All these are Kusala Cittani. The Akusala Cittani - connected with aversion or ill-will - Domanasagagatam: 12) 9. One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with displeasure, and connected with ill-will. Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam asankharikam ekam. 13) 10. One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with displeasure, and connected with ill-will. Sasankharikam ekan'ti. After all these, comes the First Path Consciousness! ------------------------------------------------------ LIBDD: "And the same reasoning applies to why > the path factors wrong > action, speech, and livelihood are not path > conditions (because they are > combinations of conditions). I'll buy it thanks to > your prompt." ------------------------------------------------------ Domanasagagatam ( Akusala Cittani) are only the Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam asankharikam ekam and Sasankharikam ekan'ti - connected, obviously, with prompted and unprompted ill-will. Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23765 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions dear LIBDD: Since I was quoting my own list, I could put the first elements of it, namely: 1) Akusalavipaka cittani: consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with indifference, and disconnected with wrong view. Kusalavipaka cittani 2) 26 Investigating Consciousness, accompanied by pleasure. 3) 27 Investigation consciousness, accompanied by indifference. And after these, The Eight Great Resulatants Attha Kamavicara Vipaka Cittani!!! Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23766 From: slartibarfast_147 Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:14pm Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? Hi all, Thank you everyone for your valuable comments. peace, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > I think there are a couple of answers that come from the Suttas on this > question.....the first would come from the Duggata Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn15-011.html > > " At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable > beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though > beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & > wandering on. When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, overwhelmed > with hard times, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced just this > sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.' > "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A > beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and > fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus > experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the > cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, > enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." > > So from this we can see that suffering is universal, we have all reaped > the consequences of unwholesome actions, thoughts and speech. I think this > understanding naturally gives rise to compassion. Also the very practice of > arousing compassion is wholesome and thus beneficial as an antidote to > hatred or pride. Ray > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "slartibarfast_147" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 8:31 PM > Subject: [dsg] If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? > > > > Greetings to all, > > > > I hope I don't sound like a jerk asking this question, but anyway > > here it is: > > > > - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > > places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower life > > forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > > humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What is > > the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? > > > > Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know what > > to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for dinner > > or refrain from eating chicken. > > > > > > with metta, > > nori 23767 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear LIBDD: Consciousness that arise according to the bases are of the 89 type: 72 arise either depending on the heart base or without a base.30 arise depending on the Heart (hadayavatthu) base. Only to resume this very, very long citation of the Abhidhamma, a summary of all the bases can be stated as: six kinds of them, namely, eye, ear nose, tongue, body and heart. All these, too, are found in the Sense-sphere. But in the Form-sphere are three bases - nose, tongue, and body are not found. In the Formless-sphere no base exists. Therein the five elements of sense-impressions lie entirely dependent on the five sensory parts on the organs as their respective bases. But the mind-element, namely, the five-door averting consciousness and the (two types of) receiving consciousness - rest in dependence on the heart. Likewise the remaining mind-conscious-element comprising the investigating consciousness, the great Resultants, the two accompanied by aversion, the first Path consciousness, smiling consciousness, and Form-sphere consciousness, rest in dependence on the heart. The remaining classes of consciousness whether Moral, Immoral, Functional, or Supramundane, are either dependent on, or independent of, the heart-base. The Formless-sphere Resultants are independent of the heart-bases. It should be known that in the Sense-sphere seven elements are dependent on the six bases, in the Form-sphere four are dependent on three bases, in the Formless-sphere the one single mind-element is not dependent on any. Forty-three arise dependent on a base. Forty-two arise with or without a base. The Formless Resultants arise without any base. Well, that´s all that I could understand untill now!!! Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23768 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > James, MICHAEL THE BUDDHA is a good and affectionate soul, > despite his extemporaneous stands and radical opinions. If you go to > http://www.geocities.com/Michaelbuddha/ you´ll find all of his > interesting remarks. Sometimes he himself posts some material by > Yahoo mail to me, to Sarah and others. > And we do reply to him appropriately! > Personally, I would prefer to call him a Padmasambhava´s avatar, > but he will keep his stand on and on: he is MICHAEL THE BUDDHA... so, > let it be! > > Metta, Ícarvs Hi Icarvs, I checked out the website. The messages appear to be the rantings of a lunatic, not at all Buddha-like material. I think you give this person far too much credit, but thank you for the information. Metta, James 23769 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:31pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Hi Kom, Thanks for your prompt reply. That would be great if you could get your copy of Vism. as an additional resource. I think this text can be understood on many levels from beginner to advanced. So, whatever your interest, could you include an explanation that us beginners can understand in your discussion. No need for a huge treatise. Just something short and to the point. However, there are many very advanced people in this group, so be careful. Larry 23770 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Hi Icarvs, My name is Larry. Thanks for all the info. Could you explain the difference between prompted and unprompted consciousness and give examples of the various consciousnesses? Thanks, Larry 23771 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Robert, This is exactly what I would like to dissect. What is sammasamadhi in daily life? Concentration is called tranquility and it is called one-pointed. Also there seems to be aspects of clarity and presence, at least in daily life. So what is going on with sammasamadhi, in the moment? Larry -------------------- Robert: Dear Larry, Buddhaghosa set out the complete path for the highest type of arahant who has mastery of jhana and the 4 discriminations. It doesn't mean that everyone has to go this very supreme way. Sammasammadhi (right concentration) also occurs when there is satipatthana in daily life. It focuses on nama or rupa, but is khanika, momentary. When there is vipassana nana samadhi is powerful for those brief moments. 23772 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Larry & Kom Since Kom doesn't have his copy of TPOP with him, may I butt in here and mention something about these particular terms. In Nanamoli's translation which we are using, "inside knowledge" is the term used for the Pali expression "vipassana nana", and "profitable consciousness" is the term used for "kusala citta". (Larry, this kind of information can often be found by looking through the index and/or the Pali-English glossary at the back). I don't know if this helps. Kom, any further thoughts/comments? Jon --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Larry, ... > I need to pick up my copy of vism in storage first... My questions > (to > myself) in order to answer your question is: > > 1) What is meant by understanding (panna) in the first part of this > paragraph? > 2) It's pretty clear that insight knowledge is panna, but is it > panna confined to Satipatthana only? > > These two questions probably would be answered in the context / > further explanations in the text. > > There is a point that may help. For the profitable consciousness, > kusala > states are most likely meant. Here, the text excludes panna that > is > con-ascent with resultant (vipaka) and functional (kiriya) states, > and hence specifically mean panna in the impulsion (javana) process. > > kom 23773 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 1. for Sarah Dear Howard, op 29-07-2003 15:49 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > One > is always a victim when awareness is missing. N: Very well expressed. I think of the many texts on neglectfulness and its dangers, and heedfulness, and its benefits. Nina. 23774 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:41pm Subject: cramped conditions Hi Larry, I found a text, footnote to Vis. XI, 121: Nina 23775 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear Larry: Larry: "My name is Larry. Thanks for all the info. Could you > explain the > difference between prompted and unprompted > consciousness and give > examples of the various consciousnesses? Thanks," ------------------------------------------------------ I will try it Larry... First, take the Attha Kamavacara Kriya Cittani (Eight types of Functional Consciousness - Javana), for example: "One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with pleasure, and combined with knowledge." Well, taking a good Pali-English Dictionary ( as the http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/ ) , we´ll find for "sasankharikam' ekam" the following entry: "sasankhárika-citta (in Dhs.: sasankhárena ) a prepared, or prompted state of consciousness, arisen after prior deliberation (e.g. weighing of motives) or induced by others (command, advice, persuasion) - See Tab. I; exemplified in Vis.M. XIV, 84f. - Opposite: asankhárika-citta, q.v." So, a "prompted" stated is a prepared one, arisen after some motivation ot induced by others. You are watching at your TV a Corn Flakes´ advertisement, and thereafter you´ll go to the Supermarket and buy a box of such Corn Flakes. The opposite term, asankhárika, is quoted at the same dictionary as "asankhárika-citta an Abhidhamma term signifying a 'state of consciousness arisen spontaneously', i.e. without previous deliberation, preparation, or prompting by others; hence: 'unprepared, unprompted'. This term and its counterpart (sasankhárikacitta, q.v.), probably go back to a similar distinction made in the Suttas (A.IV.171; "Path" 184). See Tab. I; examples in Vis.M. XIV, 84f.". So, a unprompted state of consciousness is one that arises spontaneously, without deliberation. You are at the streets and suddenly a car out of control is coming towards you... you jump off to a secure place by instinct, not because there is a car without control out there! Other people couldn´t do the same... and take on the impact at full. All the world is Dukkha... Curiously, the word asankhata, very similar to the preceeding one, means "'Unformed, Unoriginated, Unconditioned' is a name for Nibbána, the beyond of all becoming and conditionality". I hope that´s good enough. Corrections and suggestions are welcome! Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23776 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conciousness after death Hi Nori, Welcome to DSG! You ask an excellent question about compassion -- and certainly didn’t sound like a jerk --and received some super responses.from many members we’d all like to encourage to post more - TG, Ray, RobK, Andrew, Peter V, Mike.....;-) So please keep up the qus. To pick up on the quote Ray gave (Duggata Sutta) and his comment: “understanding naturally gives rise to compassion”, I think this is so true. For most of us there are only conditions for compassion (and then only sometimes) when we see someone suffering, such as a child crying after falling over or being punished. We don’t think at these times ‘Oh, he was running too fast and deserved it, so no compassion’. In the same way when we see insects suffering or think about beings in hell planes perhaps. When we were recently in Bangkok discussing dhamma with friends, we were discussing about how there are opportunities for metta and upekkha (equanimity) more often in a day, in fact whenever we’re with or thinking about others. For compassion to arise, the others have to be suffering. For the Buddha and those who’ve fully understood the Four Noble Truths, this can be at anytime. However, I think that as Ray said, as understanding develops, there are more and more opportunities to sympathise and have compassion for others and to distinguish this wholesome state from its near enemy of unhappy feeling and aversion or distress. Btw, there can only be metta or compassion for living beings - not for dead chicken;-) Briefly on your other qus here as they may have been answered by now - if not pls ask for more details and preferably add what you know or have heard from another friend;-) ...... --- slartibarfast_147 wrote: > Greetings to all, > > > i would appreciate any help from anyone who can shed light on this: > > According to dhamma, does conciousness depend on the physical body? .... In this plane of existence, yes. ..... > Does conciousness continue after death of this body? ..... Yes. - this body being various physical phenomena that fall away. ..... > If so how was it realized by Guatama/Buddha directly; perceived by > himself directly ? ..... 1. the Buddha could in a flash recall all past lives and knew precisely all the conditions which would affect life in future for those not fully enlightened. 2. By understanding more and more about consciousness at this moment, the arising and falling away of this consciousness and the ‘anatta’ characteristic of consciousness, the developed understanding realizes that this is how it’s always been and always will be while there are conditions. In other words, there is rebirth at each moment in this sense. Nori, meanwhile I’d like to ask you to share with us a little information about where you live, your background in Buddhism and so on. Obviously you have a very keen interest and I’m very glad you’re sharing it with us. Please don’t think about sounding like a jerk - some of us would never post if we were too concerned about this and so often the simplest sounding questions are the best;-) With metta, Sarah =========== 23777 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear James, James: "I checked out the website. The messages appear to > be the rantings of > a lunatic, not at all Buddha-like material. I think > you give this > person far too much credit, but thank you for the > information." ------------------------------------------------------ Well, Karuna, Metta and so on are more than words. Let it be. Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23778 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thank you for your reply. > > I think both of us understand that the term "desire" is to be > understood in its context. And I don't think we have major > disaggreement in that respect. ..... So far, so good.... .... > > I don't quite understand what you mean by the following in your > message. Please explain. Thank you. .... Sorry for the delay - I’ll try to clarify. I’d better requote as it was a few days ago: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > wrote: > > So on account of what objects are these wholesome states and right > effort > > supposed to arise? On account of just the same objects which are > usually > > the objects of attachment, ignorance and aversion. In otherwords, > the > > `All' are to be known by right understanding and accompanying > factors. > > > > "Forms, sounds, odours, tastes, > > Tactiles and all objects of mind - > > Desirable, lovely, agreeable, > > So long as it's said: `They are.' > > > > "These are considered happiness > > By the world with its devas; > > But where these cease, > > That they consider suffering. > > > > "The noble ones have seen as happiness > > The ceasing of identity. > > This (view) of those who clearly see > > Runs counter to the entire world. > > > > "What others speak of as happiness, > > That the noble ones say is suffering; > > What others speak of as suffering, > > That the noble ones know as bliss." > > > > (SN, Sa.laayatanavagga, Bk of Six Sense Bases., 136 Delight in > Forms) > > ..... Briefly, I understood you to be saying that whether desire (chanda) was wholesome or unwholesome depended on the object of the citta cognized. “It is what one desires for makes the difference” you wrote, suggesting that if there was desire for the development of wholesome qualities, the citta and desire must be wholesome and if there was desire for sense objects, that it must be unwholesome, I understood you to be saying. the point of quoting this sutta above was to suggest that it’s not the object that determines the ‘jati’ or nature of the consciousness and that forms, sounds, odours, tastes, for example, can be experienced by kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome) chanda and when we aspire to develop wholesome qualities, this aspiration can also be accompanied by kusala or akusala states. Hence the importance of developing sati and panna, otherwise we’ll always be fooled along with the rest of ‘the world’. Mike wrote in one post while we were away along a similar line: “For me, it’s hardest to see the danger in enjoying the beauties of nature and my inclination is always to delight in them, indulge in them and cling to them -- this is unwise attention, I think.” Let me know if this still isn’t clear or if I’ve misinterpreted your other comments. Glad to read all your comments as usual, Victor. With metta, Sarah ====== 23779 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Advice to Laypeople Hi Peter V, --- vajramantra wrote: > Hello all, > > Could you please recommend some work specifically dealing with > advices to laypeople with regards to view, meditation and behavior? ..... I think you would appreciate Nina’s book ‘Buddhism in Daily Life’, especially as you’re getting to ‘know’ her on this list: http://www.abhidhamma.org/buddhism_in_daily_life.htm I’d also recommend any of the books and materials and texts from these websites (the first two are RobertK’s) and the last one is Alan Weller’s: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ http://www.vipassana.info/ http://www.zolag.co.uk/ There are also many suttas which you’d find relevant - others like Christine, Victor and Mike might give some of their favourite links perhaps. I re-posted one yesterday which someone recently posted: Vyagghapajja Sutta (Conditions of Welfare) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-054.html Finally, I think you’d find this post of Rob M’s useful. He gives a summary of a book by Dr K.Sri Dhammananda on just this topic. I’m sure he’d be glad to discuss any of it further too. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22561 Appreciating all your contributions, Peter. Metta, Sarah ====== 23780 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:16am Subject: Re: Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration [James] Dear James, You write, J: "Too many people assume what it is like to be an arahant; and for some reason the assumption is that an arahant is existing in continual bliss. That is not the case as is evidenced by the sutta I quoted. I you have alternative information, please present it; I would be very interested. The arahant has to deal with the same mundane realities that we all have to deal with. Conceptual thinking is a part of samsara, just that fact makes it a burden...arahants carry that burden better than wordlings." --> Dan: We are indeed encouraged to reflect on the virtues of the Buddha as one of the 40 meditation subjects so frequently discussed. In so doing, though, it is important to reflect on the virtues as they are, not as we wish them to be (e.g., not to assume the arahant is existing in continual bliss, as you point out). Central to this exercise is to stick to the virtues discussed in the texts, and "arahant live in continual bliss" is no where to be found. However, there is much discussion about how the arahant does not deal with the same mundane realities that we all have to deal with. In particular, dosa, lobha, and moha are some of the mundane realities that arahants do not have to deal with. Now, many people do not believe that such a thing is possible, but that would not be very "Buddhist". "Conceptual thinking" is indeed a part of samsara for me (and an important part). And as the Buddha tells us, "conceptual thinking" is something arahants engage in too. It would be very hard to function without engaging in conceptual thinking! The difference between me and an arahant is that the arahant (who has escaped samsara but not conceptual thinking, escaped papañca but not samsara) does not mistake concept for reality. D: "Also, my understanding is that while vipassana is free from conceptual thinking, jhana is not." J: "My understanding is the exact opposite." --> Dan: This is standard Theravada stuff. See, e.g., BB's CMA (p. 56): "The object of the jhana-consciousness is a mental image called the counterpart sign (patibhaganimitta). This sign is considered a conceptual object (paññati)..." 'Vipassana', on the other hand, is taken as direct insight into realities. (In the texts, it's not a "meditation technique" a la Goenka or Mahasi.) Dan 23781 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:04am Subject: Re: Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear James, > You write, > > J: "Too many people assume what it is like to be an arahant; and Hi Dan, First of all, there is something you must realize about me, I am not 100% Theravada Buddhist. I believe in the path described by the Lord Buddha, but not most of the higher order philosophy devised by subsequent bhikkhus. I reject the Abhidhamma flat out as heresy and don't take stock in the use of Pali in explaining dharma to westerners, much is lost and confused. With that said, I don't believe in meditating on the virtues of the Buddha. Since I am not a Buddha, it would be ridiculous for me to meditate on something I could not completely understand, it would all be conjecture and projection on my part. The mind in samsara cannot understand the mind in nibbana. I put forth a hypothesis based on the texts, you have stated that my hypothesis is incorrect but have not offered an alternative hypothesis. If you cannot offer an alternative hypothesis, you can't say that my hypothesis is incorrect…that is just common sense. As far as your other distinctions about meditation, I find your points confused. First, counter-part signs are not always an object of jhana-consciousness and not everyone has them; this is a matter that is explored in subsequent texts of the original suttas but not mentioned in the original suttas. Even as such, they should not be conceptualized but simply experienced as such: an eye-sign for eye consciousness, an ear-sign for ear consciousness, etc., nothing more. Secondly, you state that 'vipassana' in the original texts is direct insight into realities and yet I don't believe you are going to find any references to `vipassana', using that Pali term, in the original texts. Vipassana, as it is used in contemporary texts, is like the technique taught by Goenka, etc., where sensations are traced to their roots in mental activity and thus categorized and conceptualized until full revelation of the Four Noble Truths. You see, the use of Pali terms, to add distinction or special ness to dharma concepts, is becoming extremely confusing and should be abandoned, in my estimation. Metta (used mostly as a matter of convention), James 23782 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 1. for Sarah Hi Howard (Azita & All), Your response is very coherent and I thought we’d be on the same page here. One clarification below: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree with you Sarah. Perhaps there is some deficiency in terms > of > literal content in what the friends are saying, but the sense of it, to > walk > lightly in the world, is helpful, I think, for Buddhists and > non-Buddhists > alike. It's not so much that "entertainments" are needed, but that an > "unclenching" > and a "lightness" are needed. > -------------------------------------------------- ..... S:well-put;-) ..... S:> > in her series with A.Sujin, ‘seeing here is no different from seeing > > there’. To take it further, seeing with wise companions is no > different > > from seeing with unwise companions. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, yes and no. It is easier to learn from wise companions than > > unwise companions. ..... S: I’d just like to clarify a little - the ‘seeing’ in the comment above was meant to refer to seeing consciousness (cakkhu vinnana) and not to seeing as in comprehending/understanding. In other words, dhammas to be known, such as seeing or hearing consciousness, visible objects or sounds, are just the same regardless of the company. ..... H:>But I do think that based on a careful study of the > Buddha's > teachings, teachings mulled over again and again until there is a deep > imbibing > of them, the mind becomes conditioned to learn, and to apprehend with > wisdom, > under all circumstances and from all people. Eventually, to paraphrase > what > the Tibetans have said, it becomes possible to see all things as Dhamma, > hear > all sounds as mantra, and experience all people as Buddha. There is > nowhere we > can look that we will not see the truth of the Dhamma revealed. > ---------------------------------------------------- ..... S:Yes, and certainly none of us would be here if we didn’t appreciate the importance of that deep imbibing;-) I’d like to fish out and repeat a quote from the Comy to the Satipatthana Sutta under Factors of Enlightenment, Energy: “The avoiding of lazy folk is the avoiding of people without physical and mental energy who are like a rock-snake lying inert after a full feed. And the association with folk who have begun to exert themselves is mixing with those whose minds are turned towards and who are endeavoring for the attainment of Nibbana. Inclination towards the development of this enlightenment factor is the inclining, sloping and bending of the mind towards right exertion in all postures of sitting, standing and so forth. The enlightenment factor that arises in this way comes to completion by culture through the path of arahantship.” .....> S:> > As understanding > develops > > panna will condition the way of living without thinking ‘I have to > live > > like this or I have to do this or that’ â€?. > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Very "Zen"! ;-) > ----------------------------------------------- .... S:And very “Anatta”! ;-) ..... > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > This is a true and interesting point. It is very important, > however, > to be as aware as possible of volition, and of what is willed, whenever > possible, so that one can avoid unconscious papanca which embellishes > akusala cetana > and so that one can support by awareness the furtherance of kusala > cetana. One > is always a victim when awareness is missing. > ------------------------------------------------------- ..... S:I think this sounds like a good compromise;-) We agree on the importance of awareness and the danger of ‘unconscious papanca’ and the importance of knowing and being mindful of the difference between the kusala and akusala mental states including volition. ...... > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > There are "good" and "evil" people to be found among all > religionists, > and among irreligionists as well. And if one looks carefully, there is > goodness to be found even in those who seem to be clearly "evil". Given > that one > stays mindful and cautiously avoids being led astray, there is much to > learn from > all sources, I believe. In this regard, the development of the Brahma > viharas > is useful not only to bring joy and calm to oneself, and to enable one > to act > wholesomely and harmlessly in the world, but it also serves as > protection for > oneself. The Brahma viharas, it seems to me, create an envelope of > security > and peace about oneself, enabling one to learn from all sources while > remaining > unstained. [I don't mean to imply that the Brahma viharas are a > substitute > for the realization of nibbana, of course. Nothing is.] > ---------------------------------------------------- ..... S:Very nicely put as I knew you would. When I was an undergraduate uni student, for 3 years, I was very involved in slum and other community work projects in my free time - setting up the first free legal centre in the U.K. and so on. Every Sunday, I used to work with ex-convicts, supposedly helping them integrate back into society. There were ex-murderers, psychopaths, the lot -- and not all success stories. I haven’t mentioned any of these activities for decades, but I look back on these times as very happy, rewarding and the activities mostly pretty wholesome (in a very generalised sense) in spite of the mixed company;-). It was all a welcome contrast to all the other far more self-centred indulgences during those heady hippie days....even if there wasn't any understanding of the Dhamma. Finally, I appreciated these reminders from Mike which I’d like to repeat here: ***** M:“ "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there..."(Vis. XVI) “I think it's more useful to think of compassion, good, evil and so on as arising and subsiding according to conditions, rather than in terms of 'beings', which are concepts. Compassion arises with understanding of the nature of beings and of suffering--no one who 'should' feel compassion and no one for whom one should feel compassion, ultimately. Just my opinion!.” ***** S: Thanks, Howard. I always appreciate your encouragement of all kinds of kusala. Thx to Mike too for all his good doses of sanity. Metta, Sarah ===== 23783 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Hi Ícarvs, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:47 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions > Well, Karuna, Metta and so on are more than words. > Let it be. True and well-said, friend. mike 23784 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > > Dear James, > > James: "I checked out the website. The messages > appear to > > be the rantings of > > a lunatic, not at all Buddha-like material. I think > > you give this > > person far too much credit, but thank you for the > > information." > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Well, Karuna, Metta and so on are more than words. > Let it be. > > Metta, Ícarvs *yawn* 23786 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:31am Subject: Re: Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration Thanks, James. This clarifies a lot. I wish you the best! J: "First of all, there is something you must realize about me, I am not 100% Theravada Buddhist. I believe in the path described by the Lord Buddha, but not most of the higher order philosophy devised by subsequent bhikkhus. I reject the Abhidhamma flat out as heresy and don't take stock in the use of Pali in explaining dharma to westerners, much is lost and confused. With that said, I don't believe in meditating on the virtues of the Buddha. Since I am not a Buddha, it would be ridiculous for me to meditate on something I could not completely understand, it would all be conjecture and projection on my part. The mind in samsara cannot understand the mind in nibbana. I put forth a hypothesis based on the texts, you have stated that my hypothesis is incorrect but have not offered an alternative hypothesis. If you cannot offer an alternative hypothesis, you can't say that my hypothesis is incorrect…that is just common sense. "As far as your other distinctions about meditation, I find your points confused. First, counter-part signs are not always an object of jhana-consciousness and not everyone has them; this is a matter that is explored in subsequent texts of the original suttas but not mentioned in the original suttas. Even as such, they should not be conceptualized but simply experienced as such: an eye-sign for eye consciousness, an ear-sign for ear consciousness, etc., nothing more. Secondly, you state that 'vipassana' in the original texts is direct insight into realities and yet I don't believe you are going to find any references to `vipassana', using that Pali term, in the original texts. Vipassana, as it is used in contemporary texts, is like the technique taught by Goenka, etc., where sensations are traced to their roots in mental activity and thus categorized and conceptualized until full revelation of the Four Noble Truths. You see, the use of Pali terms, to add distinction or special ness to dharma concepts, is becoming extremely confusing and should be abandoned, in my estimation." 23787 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 1. for Sarah [Howard] Hi Howard! Just a quick comment on your statement: "It is easier to learn from wise companions than unwise companions." I'm not convinced! Unwise companions may put very attractive packaging on wrong views -- very easy to learn and follow! But are these the kind of lessons we want to learn? (I'd say: "Yes." Lobha is quite a reliable guide because we really want to follow it -- an excellent teacher. The problem is that it leads down the wrong path.) Dan 23788 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:42am Subject: [dsg] Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Sarah and all, Thank you for your explanation. I think what I said "It is what one desires for makes the difference" did not convey the idea that there is desire to be abandoned, eradicated, and there is desire to be developed. What I said was unclear. Now, we have agreed that the term "desire" is to be understood in its context. Desire for the senses is a mental defilement, and that desire is to be eradicated. However, there is this desire that is to be developed as one of the four bases of power (iddhi), namely, desire, persistence (effort), intent (will), and discrimination (the discriminating mind). Particularly regarding desire as a base of power, Tan Thanissaro Bhikkhu's explained: We should note here that desire in this case means desire directed toward the goal of the practice. This desire does not count as craving, which as a cause of stress is directed at further states of becoming in the round of rebirth. * Thank you for your explanation. I would be interested to discuss the topic on desire, particularly as a base of power, and the topic on the four bases of power in general. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor * http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/2d.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > [snip] > Briefly, I understood you to be saying that whether desire (chanda) was > wholesome or unwholesome depended on the object of the citta cognized. "It > is what one desires for makes the difference" you wrote, suggesting that > if there was desire for the development of wholesome qualities, the citta > and desire must be wholesome and if there was desire for sense objects, > that it must be unwholesome, I understood you to be saying. the point of > quoting this sutta above was to suggest that it's not the object that > determines the `jati' or nature of the consciousness and that forms, > sounds, odours, tastes, for example, can be experienced by kusala > (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome) chanda and when we aspire to develop > wholesome qualities, this aspiration can also be accompanied by kusala or > akusala states. Hence the importance of developing sati and panna, > otherwise we'll always be fooled along with the rest of `the world'. > > Mike wrote in one post while we were away along a similar line: > "For me, it's hardest to see the danger in enjoying the beauties of nature > and my inclination is always to delight in them, indulge in them and cling > to them -- this is unwise attention, I think." > > Let me know if this still isn't clear or if I've misinterpreted your other > comments. > > Glad to read all your comments as usual, Victor. > > With metta, > > Sarah 23789 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 10:42am Subject: Subcomy Vis. Dear all, here is a coarse translation of the first sentence of the Tika, I hope to be corrected. (I cannot translate the whole Tika!) First the relevant Vis passage: Now concentration was described under the heading of "consciousness" in the stanza: 'When a wise man, established well in virtue, Develops consciousness and understanding' And that has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits described [in Chs. XII and XIII]. Pali of : samaadhi sabbaakaarena bhaavito hoti. The Tika elaborates on all these aspects: 1. sabbaakaarenaati upacaaraakaaro, appanaakaaro, vasiibhaavaakaaro, In all aspects means: the aspects of access, attainment , the development of the "masteries" (of jhana), vitakkaadisamatikkamaakaaro, ruupaadiihi virajjanaakaaro, the passing beyond applied thinking etc. [1], the discarding of materiality etc.[2] , cuddasadhaa cittassa paridamanaakaaro, pa~ncavidhaaanisa.msaadhigamaakaaroti the restraint of consciousness in fourteen ways [3], the acquirement of the fivefold benefit [4] evamaadinaa sabbena bhaavanaakaarena. thus it is , to begin with,with reference to the development in all aspects. notes: 1. the jhanafactor applied thinking and the other factors are abandoned successively as higher jhanas are attained. 2. material jhana is discarded when immaterial jhana is developed. 3. See Vis. XII, 12, these are the masteries of jhana 4. See Vis. 120: blissful abiding here, now; as proximate cause for insight; as proximate cause for direct knowledge (the supernormal powers); rebirth in the Brahma world; the attainment of cessation. Nina. 23790 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Jon, Thank-you for your response and giving some good details of where you stand. I guess my original reply wasn't such a bad thing after all. I'm not exactly sure what the connection is between mundane concentration and insight but your comments on this caused me to consider the role the jhaanas play in bringing about supramundane path-consciousness. In the kusala section of the Dhammasangani concerning the lokuttaracittas, the first big part of it involves developing supramundane jhaana but when I got to section 358 it goes on to describe 19 other great methods in addition. eg. he develops supramundane satipatthana... This whole section tells me that there are other ways of attaining path-consciousness besides the jhaana method. In other words, like the jhaana method these other methods can also serve as a basis even though the path-consciousness is automatically accompanied by the 1st jhaana. Do you think that many of these methods are descriptive of the way of a sukkhavipassaka? I'm reading that it does and I'm wondering if you agree. There is uncertainty with some of the methods such as supramundane samatha (is it different from the jhaana method?). Best wishes, Jim > Jim > > Thanks for these comments. I agree with much of what you say here. > In particular, I agree that no-one can say when or in what manner > enlightenment will come (i.e., whether as a sukkhavipassaka or as a > dry-insight worker). > > In fact, I would go even further: I do not read the texts as > suggesting that one should elect to follow one way or the other -- I > regard these groupings as ex post facto classifications. You see, I > believe the teachings encourage us to take every opportunity to > develop kusala of all kinds, and that of course means samatha as well > as vipassana; it really depends on present circumstances and > conditions and our accumulated tendencies which particular form of > kusala if any will occur at a particular time. How things develop in > the long run is going to be determined very much by what happens > during all those kalpas that we have yet to go through ;-)). > > I also agree that each person's inclinations and aspirations are a > personal matter and not any one else's business. > > That said, however, the question of whether, according to the > doctrine as taught by the Buddha, the development of mundane > concentration/samatha (tranquility) is a necessary prerequisite for > the development of insight is one that, as I see it, needs to be > considered by everyone regardless of personal inclinations or > aspirations, since it goes to the very heart of the development of > the path. There is much material in the texts that has a bearing on > this question, and I think it is good to critically examine that > material. > > As you know, my own view is that the teachings do not make that > particular connection between mundane concentration and insight; but > this in no way lessens my regard for mundane concentration as a form > of kusala highly extolled by the Buddha and as such very worthy of > being developed. > > The immediate significance in practical terms of this question seems > to lie in whether or not one regards the lack of developed mundane > concentration as an obstacle to the development of insight at the > present moment, because of the perceived nexus between the two. > > Thanks for the opportunity to explain a bit further. > > Jon 23791 From: Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Hi Icarvs, Is this your name, "Icarvs"? Well done on explaining "prompted and unprompted". Here is a note from the editors of "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma": p.36: The multisignificant word 'sankhaara' is used here in a sense specific to the Abhidhamma to mean prompting, instigation, inducement (payoga), or the application of an expedient (upaaya).This prompting may be imposed by others, or it may originate from within oneself; the means employed may be bodily, verbal, or purely mental. This is a very handy book which you may be interested in buying some time. It was written by Acariya Anuruddha with the title "Abhidhammattha Sangaha" and is a very concise exposition of abhidhamma. This volume, "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" is a translation with commentary by U Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi. Larry 23792 From: Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:34pm Subject: satipatthana Hi Nina, Could a satipatthana consciousness (panna?), on a mundane level, be either prompted or unprompted? How about Right Concentration on a mundane level? Could that be either prompted or unprompted? How about in a path moment? Could Right Sati and Right Concentration be either prompted or unprompted? Larry 23793 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends was( Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Christine, Azita, Sarah, all, Thank you for your thoughts and quotes on the role of the Dhamma friend. When I asked for comments, I was half- seriously wondering if there needed to be an unbroken link between us and the Buddha. That is, if we needed to hear the Dhamma from someone who had heard it from someone who heard it from someone who . . . . heard it from the Buddha. If such a link is vital, it would be due to the fact that only a Buddha can teach the Dhamma. That might explain why the Theras of old were in no hurry to commit the Tipitaka to writing: written words, indirectly conveyed, might not be enough. (?) Coincidentally, I read about 'saksit' this morning while straying onto another Yahoo list. 'Saksit' is from the Sanskrit, 'shakti-siddhi' and means "charismatic potency". Apparently, there is no support for it in the ancient texts but it is a popular explanation for the need to maintain an unbroken lineage in the sangha. Unless told otherwise, I will assume there is no need for "charismatic potency" in the lineage of Dhamma friendships. Changing the subject; One of the quotes you provided was the following which, Sarah tells us, was uttered by an arahant: I'm blind , my eyes are destroyed. I've stumbled on a wilderness track. Even if I must crawl, I'll go on, but not with an evil companion. This was directed at the poor monk who had earned the epithet, "evil companion" -- an unpleasant experience in ordinary circumstances. It a reminds me a questionable practice found in many Dhamma groups including (very rarely), DSG: Some people think they can castigate others without engaging in akusala, harsh speech. They point to the frequent use of 'fool,' 'evil one' and similar terms, in the Tipitaka. Obviously, as in the above case, it is possible to strongly rebuke someone while maintaining metta for them at the same time. But can we be sure this is what we are doing? Until we have a thorough understanding of kusala and akusala, it might be best to play it safe. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 23794 From: bodhi2500 Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 7:05pm Subject: Abhidhammatthasangaha Hi All There seems to be a few translations of the Abhidhammatthasangaha. Is there any particular translation anyone could recommend? I am considering buying one of these 3> The Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Exposition of the Topics of Abhidhamma, tr. R.P. Wijeratne & Rupert Gethin, 2002 Translation of the Abhidhammatthasa.ngaha and Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii Compendium of Philosophy, tr. S.Z. Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids, 1910, 1979, 1995 Translation of Abhidhammattha-sa.ngaha. "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma": by Bhikkhu Bodhi and U Rewata Dhamma. Larry you mentioned this one has a commentary, is it an accepted pali commentary or a com. by Bhikkhu Bodhi/U Rewata Dhamma? At the moment I'm leaning towards the Wijeratne/Gethin one, because of the added translation of a Pali commentary. Does anyone have any info on this commentary "Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii". I cant seem to find it on the Chattha Sangayana CD. Thanks Steve 23795 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhammatthasangaha Hi Steve, Sorry, I can't help with what it the best one. I have them all except the first (Wijeratne). You can find the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii in the Abhidhamma section of the CSCD. It's in .Tiikaa-co-paali. Jim > Hi All > There seems to be a few translations of the > Abhidhammatthasangaha. Is there any particular translation anyone > could recommend? I am considering buying one of these 3> > > The Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Exposition of the Topics > of Abhidhamma, > tr. R.P. Wijeratne & Rupert Gethin, 2002 > Translation of the Abhidhammatthasa.ngaha and > Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii > > Compendium of Philosophy, > tr. S.Z. Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids, 1910, 1979, 1995 > Translation of Abhidhammattha-sa.ngaha. > > "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma": by Bhikkhu Bodhi and U Rewata > Dhamma. Larry you mentioned this one has a commentary, is it an > accepted pali commentary or a com. by Bhikkhu Bodhi/U Rewata Dhamma? > > > At the moment I'm leaning towards the Wijeratne/Gethin one, because > of the added translation of a Pali commentary. Does anyone have any > info on this commentary "Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii". I cant seem to > find it on the Chattha Sangayana CD. > > > Thanks > Steve 23796 From: Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhammatthasangaha Hi Steve, The commentary in CMA is by U Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi but is based on ancient commentaries. "The Summary of the Topics..." is new to me but looks pretty tasty. Gethin is an "up and coming" Pali scholar who wrote a couple of books I thought were pretty good. I think I'll get it. Do you have a source? The CMA is a modern classic and I have no hesitation in recommending it. Also, I think there is a little difference between a Pali scholar and a monk scholar in terms of practicing what one teaches. Larry 23797 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:47pm Subject: Well-spoken Hi Ken, ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau To: Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 6:27 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends was( Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) > Some people think they can castigate > others without engaging in akusala, harsh speech. They > point to the frequent use of 'fool,' 'evil one' and > similar terms, in the Tipitaka. Obviously, as in the > above case, it is possible to strongly rebuke someone > while maintaining metta for them at the same time. But > can we be sure this is what we are doing? Until we have > a thorough understanding of kusala and akusala, it might > be best to play it safe. :-) Quite right, in my opinion. Here's a simple standard that's very difficult to live up to in a rebuke (for us puthujjanas, anyway): "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five? "It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will." -- AN V.198 mike 23798 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] proximate cause of panna. Hi Larry, op 30-07-2003 02:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I wonder why there is so little discussion of satipatthana in > Visuddhimagga. Maybe because it is a discussion of the path of jhana. N: There is: the development of insight and all stages up to enlightenment. The development of satipatthana is the development of vipassana. They are not two different matters. L: Perhaps we could say awareness of realities (satipatthana) is also a proximate cause of > panna. N: . I prefer to keep to the definitions in the Commentaries. Nina. 23799 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:30pm Subject: Inroduction of myself to the 'Dhamma Study Group' Sarah wrote: > Nori, meanwhile I'd like to ask you to share with us a little information > about where you live, your background in Buddhism and so on. Obviously you > have a very keen interest and I'm very glad you're sharing it with us. > Please don't think about sounding like a jerk - some of us would never > post if we were too concerned about this and so often the simplest > sounding questions are the best;-) > > With metta, > > Sarah Sure; Hi all, I live in New York City. Home of vanity, the biggest Ego's, uncontrolled sensual pleasures and desire; AKA massive suffering; Home of angry faces and rude attitudes ... Babylon. Rarely do I meet any good people here, although there are some. I still don't know what I'm doing here. Attachment to family I guess. I came across Buddhism a few years ago due to both 'seeking the ultimate truth of existence' (triggered by entheogens) and likewise due to extreme suffering and an unfulfilling life. ...Since then my suffering has been greatly reduced, although I still feel much. (...I feel like I'm at a AA meeting) Some site named "Mountain Man Graphics" in australia had some passages from Paul Carus's - Gospel of Buddha, on the internet. I read it and said "wow this actually makes sense, ...and actually sounds like the truth" unlike many other long winded religious and philosophical BALONEY I have read. And so, this eventually led me to the source - The Tipitaka, the oldest texts of Gotama, Buddha. My first book being the 'Dhammapada' (Oxford-sacred books of the east). Ever since, I have been a fan of Gotama (he's my hero). I also read other theological and philosophical works and have faith in nothing I cannot verify and experience myself. I can't express how happy I am to have found a Cyber-Sangha with kind people who also seek the same, since I have not a single friend or family member who even has an inkling of interest in it (i.e. The ultimate truth, happiness, dhamma). I hope to have many intriguing future conversations and realizations. with metta, nori 23800 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 7:51pm Subject: My realization on Compassion; How to love those who hate you hi all, I'm the one who posted the "If there is Kamma, then why compassion?" post. I have been contemplating this for a long, long time; looking for a solid foundation on sound reasoning. I have also recently read another passage related to this: Kakacupama Sutta The Simile of the Saw "...Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Monks, if you attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw, do you see any aspects of speech, slight or gross, that you could not endure?" ---- I thought, man, Gautama must be mad! How are we to be sympathetic to those who show such extreme intentional hate toward us with no regard ??? How are we to show them good will and no hate/enmity ??? How are we to have equanimity of metta to all people, even those who are chopping us up ??? How do we have metta for those who hate us? ...those who infict pain upon us? I have been seeking a solid and sound line of reasoning other than "well thats just the ethical/moral way to be". This is not strong enough of a reason for me, especially if someone is chopping/sawing me up. So anyway, today I went hiking in the mountains near me, contemplating this issue and finally I have the realization I needed; a solid, sound line of reasoning. I'd like to share it with everyone; This is: My realization on Love and Hate: Among the things I hate, are those who hate, yet I hate (those who hate). Those who hate are born from hate, yet I still hate (those who hate). What I love, is those who love, yet I do not always love. Those who love are born of love, yet I do not always love. ---- Pretty hypocritical of me to have enmity toward those who hate; to those who cause extreme suffering to me and others. Hope it doesn't sound corny ...was profound for me. Just thought I'd share that. metta, nori 23801 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:39pm Subject: Re: concentration Hi, I would just like to share my thoughts on concentration since I just experienced some insight into it today as I was hiking and contemplating. I was amazed at how well my mind performed on my last contemplation, cutting through to the heart of the issue due to my recent practice of concentration meditation. When we practice meditation, we concentrate our mind on the breath, we concentrate our the mind on the heart/feeling, we concentrate our mind on the mind, we concentrate our mind on the body. Whatever it is we concentrate our minds on for that meditation; we hold it there, for considerable time. Whatever it is we concentrate our minds on for that meditation, we focus only on that, in-and-of-itself. ...and we hold it there; and when and if the mind wanders or breaks the concentration we gently steer it back like gently guiding a horse back onto its trail by the reins. ... And what does this concentration of the mind (done for considerable time) do? It builds strenght in the mind. It builds persistence, it builds focus (i.e. single pointedness), it builds discernment. Weilding this tool of single-pointedness, persistence, and discernment, allows you to penetrate any questions/inquiries you may pose to yourself; any contemplations you may have on whatever subject. It gives you the strenght to focus on that contemplation and nothing else. It gives you the strenght to have persistence to remain on that contemplation until its end, even if for a considerable amount of time. It gives you the strenght to discern reality as it is (observing the issue and not adding any of your thought into it as you do in your concentration meditation). It gives you the persistence, discernment and single- pointedness/focus to break through to the realization like a sharp object piercing fabric (as opposed to a blunt one). Also apart from concentration on contemplation, it also gives you the persistence, and concentration of your mind to remain on yourself at all times ...on your mind ...on your heart/feelings ...on your body ...observing it at all times; aware. It gives you the persistence and concentration to remain on the four noble truths at all times (suffering, its origin, its end, and the path to that end); concentrated on yourself at all times, undistracted, observing your suffering as it arises, observing its origin, contemplating its end. This is the benefit of concentration. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Robert, > > This is exactly what I would like to dissect. What is sammasamadhi in > daily life? Concentration is called tranquility and it is called > one-pointed. Also there seems to be aspects of clarity and presence, at > least in daily life. So what is going on with sammasamadhi, in the > moment? > > Larry > -------------------- > Robert: Dear Larry, > Buddhaghosa set out the complete path for the highest type of arahant > who has mastery of jhana and the 4 discriminations. It doesn't mean that > everyone has to go this very supreme way. Sammasammadhi (right > concentration) also occurs when there is satipatthana in daily life. It > focuses on nama or rupa, but is khanika, momentary. When there is > vipassana nana samadhi is powerful for those brief moments. 23802 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Robert, > > This is exactly what I would like to dissect. What is sammasamadhi in > daily life? Concentration is called tranquility and it is called > one-pointed. Also there seems to be aspects of clarity and presence, at > least in daily life. So what is going on with sammasamadhi, in the > moment? > > Larry > -------------------- Dear Larry Samma-samadhi, right concentration, is one of the factors of the eightfold path. It focuses on the object – either a nama or a rupa. At the same time samma –sati, right mindfulness, does its work too,and samma-sankapa, (translated somewhat misleadingly as right thinking) touches the object and samma-ditthi, right insight, understands it. Samma-vayama, right effort, the energy for understanding is also present. The Atthasalini, commentary to the Dhammasangani, explains that usually while developing the path the other path factors of right livelihood, right action and right speech are not present or at most one of them is present. But that at the moment of experiencing nibbana all factors are present. As samma-ditthi, panna, insight, develops also samma-samadhi develops and at the brief moment when enlightenment occurs samma-samadhi has strength comparable to the level of the first stage of jhana (even for a sukkha vipassaka); a major development. But this jhana is said to be unlike the mundane jhanas. We know that ekkaggata cetasika, (samadhi)concentration,arises together with kusala or akusala cittas (unwholesome or wholesome consciousness) It is affected , conditioned, by the other cetasikas and by the citta that arises at the same time, therefore there must be some difference between the ekkagata cetasikas. Thus in daily life there are times when samadhi is weak and times when it is strong - but rarely is it samma-samadhi. I think what is important is to know this moment:Whether samadhi is weak or strong- if there is samma-ditthi then whatever degree of samadhi is present will be of the right kind. Robertk 23803 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Larry (and All) See also the useful examples at Vism XIV, 84 which have been cited before on the list and which we'll be coming to shortly in your current series. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Icarvs, ... > Here is a note from the editors of "A Comprehensive > Manual of Abhidhamma": > > p.36: The multisignificant word 'sankhaara' is used here in a sense > specific to the Abhidhamma to mean prompting, instigation, > inducement > (payoga), or the application of an expedient (upaaya).This > prompting may > be imposed by others, or it may originate from within oneself; the > means > employed may be bodily, verbal, or purely mental. 23804 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Hi Larry (Jon, Mike & All), --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for your clarification on nirodha samapatti: that only > nonreturners and arahants can practice it. Good job. ..... XX111, 28 "Because the greed based on the cords of sense desire, which is an obstacle to concentration is unabandoned in them (i.e sotapanna, sakadagami). It is because that is not abandoned in them that the serenity power is not perfected. Since it is not perfected they are not, owing to want of power, able to attain the attainment of cessation, which has to be attained by two powers. But it is abandoned in the non-returner and so his power is perfected. Since his power is perfected he is able to attain it. Hence the Blessed One said: 'Profitable (consciousness) of the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception in one emerging from cessation is a condition, as proximity condition, for the attainment of fruition' (Ptn 1, 159). For this is said in the Great Book of the Patthana with reference only to non-returners' emerging from cessation." You may also like to review these posts in U.P.(Nina's translations and notes on the Foundation letters) which discuss all these difficult areas of various attainments, including nirodha samapatti and just who can attain what. ***** Fruition Attainment (phala-samaapatti) 18141, 18204, 18317, 18453, 18583 ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 23805 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:34am Subject: Vism. EngPali XIV, 2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 2. What is understanding? Understanding (pa~n~naa) is of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it all would accomplidsh neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge associated with profitable consciousness. 2. tatrida.m vissajjana.m, kaa pa~n~naati pa~n~naa bahuvidhaa naanappakaaraa. ta.m sabba.m vibhaavayitu.m aarabbhamaana.m vissajjana.m adhippeta~nceva attha.m na saadheyya, uttari ca vikkhepaaya sa.mvatteyya, tasmaa idha adhippetameva sandhaaya vadaama. kusalacittasampayutta.m vipassanaa~naa.na.m pa~n~naa. 23806 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Hi Icaro/Icarus;-), (Larry, Nina & All), Your enthusiasm for the Abhidhamma and the detail you’re supplying is a real asset here (as far as I’m concerned - you’ll note that responses can vary quite a lot ;-). You gave a very good set of details in your post 23775 explaining sasankharika-citta (prompted) and asankharika-citta (unprompted consciousness). I have to also thank you in another post for indirectly pointing out an error in a post of mine to Larry. I had mentioned that I wasn’t aware of prompted/unprompted being used to describe vipaka (result) cittas. I should have checked with you first;-) --- icaro franca wrote: > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Only to add, these combinations form: > The Eight Great Resultants - Attha Kamavicara Vipaka > Cittani > 4) 39 One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with > pleasure, and connected with knowledge. ...... Thank you for this. When referring to vipaka cittas, I understand the ‘prompted’ and ‘unprompted’ to refer to the kind of kamma which the vipaka results from. In other words, if it was sasankharika-citta leading to kamma patha, then sasankharika vipaka will result. Starting with the 8 patisandhi(birth)cittas which result from sense-sphere kusala (wholesome) kammas, four are sasankharikam (resulting from ‘prompted’ kusala cittas and four are asankharikam (resulting from ‘unprompted’ cittas. You’ve helped me reflect on this detail. Larry, as Icaro and Jon have indicated, we’ll come to more detail in Vism XIV, 84f on prompted/unprompted cittas. You’ve asked some other good qus on this. I’ve never quite worked out the fine line. Sometimes it seems we act for no reason (unprompted) when in fact there must have been some reflection or something heard on TV or whatever. Like you suggest, it seems to me that the prompting could be considered as a kind of natural decisive condition (which is a very broad condition) in many/most cases. You ask why ‘promptedness’ isn’t one of the 24 conditions, but I think it would be covered by this one and others like object condition perhaps - eg tasting something bad and then speaking harshly to whoever is near - the object prompts the harsh speech or acts as one condition. I’m not really sure without checking here whether this would count - maybe Nina or Icaro could give their opinion or further references.If the harsh speech is unprompted, it’s said in the texts to be stronger or more intense, all other factors being equal. Keep up the good posts, Metta, Sarah p.s large numbers of Hong Kongers are camping out in very hot weather,days in advance of ticket sales for Real Madrid - Ronaldo and co will get a BIG welcome here;-) ====== 23807 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:32am Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Mike, Thanks for stepping in with these totally appropriate quotes. I think Victor and I had reached a stage where we both felt we were being accused of misrepresenting (slandering), the Tathagata. When we overcome the tendency to take offence, we see that there is an important issue involved. The true Dhamma is not going to be around forever; any small part we can play in extending it's lifespan will be a great achievement. Kind regards, Ken --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Victor (and Ken), > > Hope you don't mind my butting in: > > > > As I understand it, there are (conventional*) teachings whose meaning must > be inferred and (ultimate*) teachings whose meaning is fully drawn out. I > think that to say that all teaching must be accepted at face value is > contrary to the Dhamma (no offense intended to anyone). > > "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a > discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has > already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning > has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred. > These are two who slander the Tathagata." > > 23808 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Victor (& Icaro), --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Now, we have agreed that the term "desire" is to be understood in > its context. Desire for the senses is a mental defilement, and that > desire is to be eradicated. However, there is this desire that is > to be developed as one of the four bases of power (iddhi), namely, > desire, persistence (effort), intent (will), and discrimination (the > discriminating mind). Particularly regarding desire as a base of > power, Tan Thanissaro Bhikkhu's explained: > > > We should note here that desire in this case means desire directed > toward the goal of the practice. This desire does not count as > craving, which as a cause of stress is directed at further states of > becoming in the round of rebirth. > * > > Thank you for your explanation. I would be interested to discuss > the topic on desire, particularly as a base of power, and the topic > on the four bases of power in general. ..... Ok, I discussed a little about the iddhi-padas (Bases of Success) and including chanda (desire/wish-to-do) in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m19412.html The iddhi-padas, the indriyas (spiritual faculties), balas (powers) and so on are all included in the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas (dhammas pertaining to enlightenment). The factors included only become Bases of Success, Powers, Spiritual Faculties and so on when panna (wisdom) has been developed. The four iddhi-padas depend on the five indriyas of saddha (confidence), viriya (energy - the 4 padhanas), sati (mindfulness), samadhi (right concentration) and panna (wisdom). In other words satipatthana has to be developed before chanda and the other factors can be considered as iddhi-padas as I understand. As friends often say here, we start where we are. When there is desire ‘directed toward the goal of the practice’ it takes awareness and panna to know whether these are really wholesome cittas, accompanied by kusala chanda or whether it is yet another subtle (or often not so subtle) kind of attachment. Is there any minding if there is no progress? Is there any detachment at these moments of desire? Like Nina said to Larry on the ‘piti (joy)’ thread, in my case, when I have any thoughts about nibbana or goals along the way, nearly always it’s unskilful thinking revolved around ‘me’, rather than the understanding with detachment of presently arising phenomena which is essential for any higher understanding to grow in any case. So right now, Victor, would you say that ‘desire directed to the goal’ of your practice is wholesome or unwholesome? Maybe, right now, because we’re reflecting and considering these points, there may be wise consideration and kusala cittas. However, I think that the lobha --which can be just a tad of yearning-- usually sneaks in very quickly. What do you think? Btw, Icaro, I was glad you joined in this thread before, (23642) but I couldn’t understand some of your points and I think there may have been a typo here: .... Sarah wrote: > > However, whenever they(cittas with chanda) arise they are one of these > > at the time, rather > > than ‘neutral’. I don’t think we can just say that > > this nature or jati is > > determined by the object either. > Icaro wrote: > There are four types of Arupajhana (Functional > consciousness): at first three kinds:pleasurable, > painful, and that which is neither pleasurable nor > painful. Or, again, it is five-fold, namely, > happiness, pain, pleasure, displeasure, and > indifference or equanimity. Of all them,the resultant > body-consciousness (moral, in opposition of immoral > resultant)is the only one accompanied by happiness. > .... I don’t think you mean to be referring to arupajhana but I’ll let you look and maybe clarify. Victor, I also wished to refer you to a chapter in ‘Survey of Paramattha Dhammas’The factors Leading to Enlightenment’. I was unable to access it here or in the Files section. Maybe you or RobK can try and give a link: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ I’d be happy to continue this useful (imho) discussion, so let me know what you think and about your present desires, Victor. With metta, Sarah ====== 23809 From: rahula_80 Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:59am Subject: Bond Hi, Can anyone tell me the source of this quote: "Monks, now you and I are free from human and divine bondages" See http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhism_and_the_free_thinkers.htm Thanks, Rahula 23810 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Hi Peter, --- peterdac4298 wrote: > > Hi Sarah > > Thanks for your words of support, most appreciated indeed. I am > gradually getting acclimatized and settling in. I am managing to access > > dsg more frequently now that I'm more organized. .... Must be a good move and a good settling in then;-) Do you use an internet cafe in Ubud or where/ ..... >The posts are most > inspiring, just the thing I need right now. My reading is more focused > on Vinaya during this time, but hope to include more Dhammic material > in the not too distant future. .... As far as I'm concerned, the Vinaya is very Dhammic. I know you are already very familiar with the Vinaya having ordained before. I think we'd all be interested to hear any aspects that are of particular consideration or meaning this time, if you don't mind sharing. Which texts do you use? If you give any references, Nina, myself or others may be able to help elaborate or give quotes. ..... >Have just read about Bob Hope, an > inspiration for Buddhists as much as everyone else. Generosity seems > to breed its own kind of talent. .... When I read your post I hadn't heard any news and I thought 'there's peter out in the sticks, more in touch with world events than I am in the centre of this buzzing city';-) Are you spending much time at the temple? Any reflections or comment appreciated? Metta, Sarah ====== 23811 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Dear Robert, One thing struck me in your recent comments on samma-samadhi. You wrote: R: "[Samma-samadhi] focuses on the object -- either a nama or a rupa." --> Dan: Didn't Buddha often speak of jhana as samma-samadhi? And isn't the object in jhana a concept (counterpart sign in rupajhana, an idea like "space is infinite" in arupajhana, and a being in brahmavihara)? If so, then the object of samma-samadhi needn't be a nama or rupa. On the other hand, I'd agree that in a moment of satipatthana, the samadhi is samma-samadhi and the object is a nama or rupa. The object, then, would not be a reliable indicator as to whether the samadhi is samma or miccha. Do you have a scriptural reference that discusses the object of samma-samadhi as a nama or rupa? Dan 23812 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:08am Subject: Re: Abhidhammatthasangaha Hi Steve, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi All > There seems to be a few translations of the > Abhidhammatthasangaha. Is there any particular translation anyone > could recommend? I am considering buying one of these 3> > > The Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Exposition of the Topics > of Abhidhamma, > tr. R.P. Wijeratne & Rupert Gethin, 2002 > Translation of the Abhidhammatthasa.ngaha and > Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii > > Compendium of Philosophy, > tr. S.Z. Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids, 1910, 1979, 1995 > Translation of Abhidhammattha-sa.ngaha. > > "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma": by Bhikkhu Bodhi and U Rewata > Dhamma. Larry you mentioned this one has a commentary, is it an > accepted pali commentary or a com. by Bhikkhu Bodhi/U Rewata Dhamma? > > > At the moment I'm leaning towards the Wijeratne/Gethin one, because > of the added translation of a Pali commentary. Does anyone have any > info on this commentary "Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii". I cant seem to > find it on the Chattha Sangayana CD. > I have all three. I also have a translation by Ven. Narada. If you are only going to get one, I suggest the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation. The Ven. Narada version used to be the standard until the Bhikkhu Bodhi version came out. The best part of the PTS version (S.Z. Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids) is the lengthy introductory essay. The recently translated Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii is not bad but I get the impression that Bhikkhu Bodhi included the best bits in his comments, so I did not get the feeling that it added a lot as compared to Bhikkhu Bodhi's version. Metta, Rob M :-) 23813 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] wrong path factors Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M, > op 28-07-2003 01:15 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > The last three path factors > > from my > >> previous message are not cetasikas: > >> - wrong speech (miccha-vaca) > >> - wrong bodily action (miccha-kammanta) > >> - wrong livelihood (miccha-ajiva) > >> These last three can be considered to be path factors, but they > > are not > >> conditioning states of path condition." > N: Mny different akusala cittas accompanied by akusala cetasikas are > involved with these three. Thus, they are not three distinct dhammas and as > such they are not conditioning factors. Thanks, this makes sense to me. Metta, Rob M :-) 23814 From: bodhi2500 Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:28am Subject: Re: Abhidhammatthasangaha Hi Jim, Larry and Rob Thanks for the replies. Larry the "Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Exposition of the Topics of Abhidhamma, tr. R.P. Wijeratne & Rupert Gethin" is available from PTS. BTW for anyone interested there is a translation with the Pali and comments of the Abhidhammatthasangaha by Narada Thera at> http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/sangaha.htm Thanks Steve 23815 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Dear Sarah: "Btw, Icaro, I was glad you joined in this thread > before, (23642) but I > couldn’t understand some of your points and I think > there may have been a > typo here:" ----------------------------------------------------- Right on, Sarah! I have here many notes and lists I´ve concocted during all my years of Abhidhamma´s studies. Someday I´ll put all this mess at a proper order! ----------------------------------------------------- Sarah: "I don’t think you mean to be referring to arupajhana > but I’ll let you look > and maybe clarify." ----------------------------------------------------- You see, I´ve put my list of formless jhanas near my summary of feelings...the Arupajhanas are (without Typo!): Functional Jhana consciousness dwelling on the 'Infinity of Space'. Funcional Jhana consciousness dwelling on the 'Infinity of Mind'. Functional Jhana consciousness dwelling on 'Nothingness'. Functional Jhana consciousness wherein 'perception neither is or is not'. So, as I usually say, corrections are welcome! Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23816 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhammatthasangaha Steve I have both the STA and CMA (the first and third in your list), but the STA is relatively new and I haven't really made much use of it yet. The CMA is a very useful book to have. A lot of thought has gone into the arrangement of material and its presentation, and as a result it makes the main work (the A-S) very accessible. It has lots of charts and a good index and glossary. Each section of the A-S is followed by explanatory material that is drawn from the 2 main commentaries, although it is not always a direct translation of the commentaries. The STA is a straight translation of the main work and commentary, with each section of the main work followed by the appropriate section of the commentary. Since the commentary in the STA is a straight translation, this is probably the more authoritative version of the two. However, given the choice of only 1, I would choose the CMA because I find it very browsable and user-friendly in a way that the STA is not, but this is of course a purely personal preference. Ideally, one needs to have both, as it is such a useful text! Jon --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi All > There seems to be a few translations of the > Abhidhammatthasangaha. Is there any particular translation anyone > could recommend? I am considering buying one of these 3> > > The Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Exposition of the > Topics of Abhidhamma, > tr. R.P. Wijeratne & Rupert Gethin, 2002 > Translation of the Abhidhammatthasa.ngaha and > Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii > > Compendium of Philosophy, > tr. S.Z. Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids, 1910, 1979, 1995 > Translation of Abhidhammattha-sa.ngaha. > > "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma": by Bhikkhu Bodhi and U > Rewata Dhamma. 23817 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear Larry: Larry: "Is this your name, "Icarvs"? Well done on explaining > "prompted and > unprompted". Hi Larry! Ícaro is my real name. "Ícarvs" is only to match the spelling with the English´s, with the fancy "v"...heheh!!! ------------------------------------------------------ Larry:"Here is a note from the editors of "A > Comprehensive Manual > of Abhidhamma": > > p.36: The multisignificant word 'sankhaara' is used > here in a sense > specific to the Abhidhamma to mean prompting, > instigation, inducement > (payoga), or the application of an expedient > (upaaya).This prompting may > be imposed by others, or it may originate from > within oneself; the means > employed may be bodily, verbal, or purely mental. > > > This is a very handy book which you may be > interested in buying some > time." ------------------------------------------------------ I´ve picked up the Introduction of this excellent book at Internet. Very good indeed! ------------------------------------------------------- Larry: "It was written by Acariya Anuruddha with the > title "Abhidhammattha > Sangaha" and is a very concise exposition of > abhidhamma. This volume, "A > Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" is a translation > with commentary by > U Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi.2 ------------------------------------------------------- I will give it a try, Larry... but first I ought to put order in all my messy notes and handwritings about The Abhidhamma!!! Metta, Ícarvs (or Ícaro, if you like it) ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23818 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear Sarah: "Your enthusiasm for the Abhidhamma and the detail > you’re supplying is a > real asset here (as far as I’m concerned - you’ll > note that responses can > vary quite a lot ;-)." ------------------------------------------------------ Well, thanks!!! I am being working on Abhidhamma´s texts (translated and on original if is possible) for some years...but sometimes there are so many annotations, handwrittings, notes, charts, schemes that the result here at my gabinet really doesn´t clarify minds of any sort!!! But, as I usually say to Good Larry, I try to make it without doubts! ------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: " You gave a very good set of details in your post > 23775 explaining > sasankharika-citta (prompted) and asankharika-citta > (unprompted > consciousness). > > I have to also thank you in another post for > indirectly pointing out an > error in a post of mine to Larry. I had mentioned > that I wasn’t aware of > prompted/unprompted being used to describe vipaka > (result) cittas. I > should have checked with you first;-)" ------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Again! --------------------------------------------- > > --- icaro franca wrote: > > > ----------------------------------------------------- Sarah: "Thank you for this. When referring to vipaka cittas, > I understand the > ‘prompted’ and ‘unprompted’ to refer to the kind of > kamma which the vipaka > results from. In other words, if it was > sasankharika-citta leading to > kamma patha, then sasankharika vipaka will result. > Starting with the 8 > patisandhi(birth)cittas which result from > sense-sphere kusala (wholesome) > kammas, four are sasankharikam (resulting from > ‘prompted’ kusala cittas > and four are asankharikam (resulting from > ‘unprompted’ cittas. You’ve > helped me reflect on this detail." ------------------------------------------------------- Well, let me see my notes about it: "All good acts are done by one of the first eight Cittas, their effects are the eight great resultant Cittas. The eight Ahetuks Vipaka Cittas are also effects of Kusala Cittas. There are sixteen Vipaka Cittas corresponding to eight Kusala Cittas. Of the twelve Akusala Cittas there are only seven Ahetuka Vipaka Cittas." I hope that´s right!! Metta, Ícaro ( without the fancy v !!!) > > Larry, as Icaro and Jon have indicated, we’ll come > to more detail in Vism > XIV, 84f on prompted/unprompted cittas. You’ve asked > some other good qus > on this. I’ve never quite worked out the fine line. > Sometimes it seems we > act for no reason (unprompted) when in fact there > must have been some > reflection or something heard on TV or whatever. > Like you suggest, it > seems to me that the prompting could be considered > as a kind of natural > decisive condition (which is a very broad condition) > in many/most cases. > You ask why ‘promptedness’ isn’t one of the 24 > conditions, but I think it > would be covered by this one and others like object > condition perhaps - eg > tasting something bad and then speaking harshly to > whoever is near - the > object prompts the harsh speech or acts as one > condition. I’m not really > sure without checking here whether this would count > - maybe Nina or Icaro > could give their opinion or further references.If > the harsh speech is > unprompted, it’s said in the texts to be stronger or > more intense, all > other factors being equal. > > Keep up the good posts, > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s large numbers of Hong Kongers are camping out in > very hot weather,days > in advance of ticket sales for Real Madrid - Ronaldo > and co will get a BIG > welcome here;-) > ====== ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23819 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Hi All, --- Sarah wrote: > Must be a good move and a good settling in then;-) Do you use an > internet > cafe in Ubud or where/ > ..... Oops! Unless Peter's taking a Bali break, I got my geography mixed up - should be Udon (or was it Ubon.....)- both in Thailand. Metta, Sarah ======= 23820 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Robert, ----- Original Message ----- From: rjkjp1 To: Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 12:04 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration > At the same time samma-sati, right mindfulness, does its work too, and samma- > sankapa, (translated somewhat misleadingly as right thinking) touches the object > and samma-ditthi, right insight, understands it. Do you prefer 'intention' or 'purpose' to 'thought' or 'thinking' for sankappa? Thanks, mike 23821 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Hi Sarah (and all), Speaking of Bali, I am off to Bali for a week starting tomorrow, so please don't get angry at me if I don't reply to your messages for a while. The following week, I will be in Sydney, Hong Kong, Singapore and Kuala Lumpur (more time on airplanes than on the ground). Sarah, the week of the 11th I will only be in HK for just more than a day, so we won't have a chance to get together. I will be back in HK the following week, so perhaps we can get together then. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi All, > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Must be a good move and a good settling in then;-) Do you use an > > internet > > cafe in Ubud or where/ > > ..... > > Oops! Unless Peter's taking a Bali break, I got my geography mixed up - > should be Udon (or was it Ubon.....)- both in Thailand. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 23822 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Icaro, Thx for the choice - as this is simpler to type, I’ll think I’ll stick to it now, following the majority;-)(I just heard about Icarus2 crossing the English channel....) --- icaro franca wrote: > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Right on, Sarah! > I have here many notes and lists I´ve concocted > during all my years of Abhidhamma´s studies. Someday > I´ll put all this mess at a proper order! > > ----------------------------------------------------- .... We knew you weren’t so new to Abhidhamma;-) ..... ----------------------------------------------------- > > You see, I´ve put my list of formless jhanas near my > summary of feelings...the Arupajhanas are (without > Typo!): ..... Ah! The mixing up of lists - easy to do, like mixing up names. BUT, I still don’t understand what arupajhanas, clearly listed by you below, has to do with ‘donkeys and desire’, i.e. wholesome and unwholesome chanda. Perhaps it was meant as an interesting diversion;-) Good stuff anyway and look forward to all the other lists, now we know to keep an eye out for any mix-ups;-) Metta, Sarah ====== > Functional Jhana consciousness dwelling on the > 'Infinity of Space'. > Funcional Jhana consciousness dwelling on the > 'Infinity of Mind'. > Functional Jhana consciousness dwelling on > 'Nothingness'. > Functional Jhana consciousness wherein 'perception > neither is or is not'. 23823 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Hi RobM, --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Sarah (and all), > > Speaking of Bali, I am off to Bali for a week starting tomorrow, so > please don't get angry at me if I don't reply to your messages for a > while. The following week, I will be in Sydney, Hong Kong, Singapore > and Kuala Lumpur (more time on airplanes than on the ground). ..... And if you have a chance to visit Ubud, it's a delightful spot. I'm very behind myself on one or two tricky posts myself. As a rule, after I’ve posted I just forget it and move on to the next one. I never mind(or very seldom, I think) whether someone replies or not, though I’m always very glad to see any response to any post (to mine or others’ just as much), however belated. No need to feel any burden or obligation as Howard would say;-) ..... > Sarah, the week of the 11th I will only be in HK for just more than > a day, so we won't have a chance to get together. I will be back in > HK the following week, so perhaps we can get together then. ..... That sounds good - I’ll make a note in my diary. Seems like a long time. I’m not teaching at the moment, so I can arrive first and do the looking out for you;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Paul, let me know off-list if you’ll be around and we can all coordinate. ======================= 23824 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:31am Subject: Four Bases of Power Hi Sarah, Thank you for your comments. Regarding developing the bases of power, here is a passage from the discourse I find relevant: And what is the development of the base of power? There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion. He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence... concentration founded on intent... concentration founded on discrimination & the fabrications of exertion. This is called the development of the base of power. And what is the path of practice leading to the development of the base of power? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the development of the base of power. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/2d.html#64 This is how I see it: Through developing the noble eightfold path, one develops the base of power, which in turn further the the development of the noble eightfold path. In fact, I see that the development of the four bases of power and the development of the noble eightfold path go in tandem: § 63. Monks, whoever neglects these four bases of power neglects the noble path going to the right ending of stress. Whoever undertakes these four bases of power undertakes the noble path going to the right ending of stress. Which four? There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion. He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence... concentration founded on intent... concentration founded on discrimination & the fabrications of exertion. Whoever neglects these four bases of power neglects the noble path going to the right ending of stress. Whoever undertakes these four bases of power undertakes the noble path going to the right ending of stress. -- SN LI.2 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/2d.html I think that both of us agree that the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion is different from sensual desire and greed. I would say that the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrication of exertion is wholesome. I would be interested in discussing the four bases of power. I believe this discussion would be useful. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor (& Icaro), > [snip] > Ok, I discussed a little about the iddhi-padas (Bases of Success) and > including chanda (desire/wish-to-do) in this post: > > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m19412.html > The iddhi-padas, the indriyas (spiritual faculties), balas (powers) and so > on are all included in the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas (dhammas pertaining to > enlightenment). The factors included only become Bases of Success, Powers, > Spiritual Faculties and so on when panna (wisdom) has been developed. The > four iddhi-padas depend on the five indriyas of saddha (confidence), > viriya (energy - the 4 padhanas), sati (mindfulness), samadhi (right > concentration) and panna (wisdom). In other words satipatthana has to be > developed before chanda and the other factors can be considered as > iddhi-padas as I understand. > [snip] > > So right now, Victor, would you say that `desire directed to the goal' of > your practice is wholesome or unwholesome? Maybe, right now, because we're > reflecting and considering these points, there may be wise consideration > and kusala cittas. However, I think that the lobha --which can be just a > tad of yearning-- usually sneaks in very quickly. What do you think? > [snip] > > Victor, I also wished to refer you to a chapter in `Survey of Paramattha > Dhammas'The factors Leading to Enlightenment'. I was unable to access it > here or in the Files section. Maybe you or RobK can try and give a link: > http://www.abhidhamma.org/ > > I'd be happy to continue this useful (imho) discussion, so let me know > what you think and about your present desires, Victor. > > With metta, > > Sarah 23825 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhammatthasangaha Hi Steve, op 31-07-2003 04:05 schreef bodhi2500 op seisen_@h...: > > The Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Exposition of the Topics > of Abhidhamma, > tr. R.P. Wijeratne & Rupert Gethin, 2002 > Translation of the Abhidhammatthasa.ngaha and > Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii N: I like this one, it has a good index, and a Pali glossary, but not the Pali text. The Commentary is very useful.They translate cetasikas as mentalities, and this sounds strange. It is O.k. so long as we know the Pali term. For the Pali of Abhidhammattha-sa.ngaha it is good to have Ven. Narada's translation as well. I also have the Compendium of Philosophy, tr. S.Z. Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids Nina. 23826 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:51am Subject: FW: meanings of dhamma 1. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 19:42:05 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: meanings of dhamma 1. Jim has done the exploration of the meanings of dhamma and Dimitri has collected excellent texts. I do not like this excellent work to sink into oblivion. I shall try to summarize the meanings and translate some of this material, a little at a time. Meanings of Dhamma 1 To recapitulate: the first meaning is gu.na, virtue or good quality. In different commentaries this is explained as kusala kamma different from akusala kamma. Kusala kamma is denoted as dhamma and akusala kamma is denoted as adhamma. We read in the Atthasaalinii, 38: "Na hi dhammo adhammo ca, ubho samavipaakino; dhamma, adhamma bear no equal fruit: adhammo niraya.m neti, dhammo paapeti suggatin"ti. adhamma leads to hell, dhamma causes one to reach heaven. (theragaa. 304; jaa. 1.15.386)- The second meaning given of dhamma is pariyatti: the wording of the teachings as contained in the Tipitaka. We read in the "Dhammapada Atthakataa 1.22: Dhamma.m vo, bhikkhave, desessaami aadikalyaa.nan"ti (ma. ni. 3.420) aya.m desanaadhammo naama. I shall teach you, monks, Dhamma that is beautiful in the beginning (middle and end), this is the dhamma of teaching. "Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacce kulaputtaa dhamma.m pariyaapu.nanti sutta.m geyyan"ti (ma. ni. 1.239) Here, monks, some men of a good family learn thoroughly the dhamma: sutta, geyya, etc. aya.m pariyattidhammo naama. This is the dhamma which is the wording of the teachings. My remarks:The word of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Vinaya as taught by him, consists of nine divisions which are: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakarana, Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta and Vedalla. See the ³Expositor², Atthasaalinii, Introductory Discourse, 26. The teachings as compiled (not yet written) literature are thus enumerated in the scriptures as nine divisions, for example in the ³Middle Length Sayings² I, no. 22. Sutta includes all Discourses, such as the ³Mangala sutta² (²Good Omen Discourse ³, Minor Readings, V), and also the Vinaya Pitaka and the Niddesa. In this classification the Vinaya is in the section of Sutta. The ³Atthasaalinaa² mentions in this section on Sutta the Sutta-Vibhanga and Parivaara, which belong to the Vinaya. Geyya includes all suttas with verses (gaathaa), such as the Sagaathaa-vagga of the Sa.myutta Nikaaya or ³Kindred Sayings². Veyyaakarana or ³Exposition² includes the Abhidhamma Pi.taka, the suttas without verses, and the words of the Buddha which are not included in the other eight divisions. Gaathaa or ³Verses², include the Dhammapada, Theragaathaa, Therígaathaa (Psalms of the Brothers and Sisters) and those parts of the Sutta-Nipaata not called Sutta and entirely in verse. Udaana or ³Verses of Uplift² include eightytwo suttas connected with verses recited by the Buddha, inspired by knowledge and joy. Itivuttaka or ³As it was said² includes hundred and ten suttas beginning with ³Thus it was said by the Blessed One² Jaataka or Birth Stories include fivehundred and fifty stories of the past lives of the Buddha and his disciples, beginning with the ³Apannaka Jaataka². Abbhuta, ³Marvellous², includes suttas connected with wonderful and marvellous things (dhammas with extraordinary qualities, which are amazing). Vedalla includes suttas with questions and answers which have as result understanding and delight, such as the ³Cullavedallasutta². ******** Nina. 23827 From: suzakico Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:04am Subject: Thank you, Nina!!! Having gone through your posts, I made my personal comments in this file: http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/nina.html (I thought of posting the entire file here, but thought that it may be too big.) If you can take a look at it and provide me with any feedback in any manner, I would appreciate it very much. Perhaps, it will clarify more about what abhidhamma and its daily practice is all about. A little note here is that I did not go through survey or daily life books much more deeply at this moment as I wanted to focus to learn from your responses to my questions. Again, thank you for your efforts! Arigatou gozaimasu! Good day! Kio 23828 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 0:25pm Subject: Re: concentration Hi Nori, Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insight on concentration. I very much agree. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi, > > I would just like to share my thoughts on concentration since I [snip] > > This is the benefit of concentration. > > metta, > nori 23829 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Robert, > One thing struck me in your recent comments on samma-samadhi. You > wrote: > > R: "[Samma-samadhi] focuses on the object -- either a nama or a rupa." > > --> Dan: Didn't Buddha often speak of jhana as samma-samadhi? And > isn't the object in jhana a concept (counterpart sign in rupajhana, > an idea like "space is infinite" in arupajhana, and a being in > brahmavihara)? If so, then the object of samma-samadhi needn't be a > nama or rupa. > > On the other hand, I'd agree that in a moment of satipatthana, the > samadhi is samma-samadhi and the object is a nama or rupa. > > The object, then, would not be a reliable indicator as to whether the > samadhi is samma or miccha. Do you have a scriptural reference that > discusses the object of samma-samadhi as a nama or rupa? __________ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Robert, > One thing struck me in your recent comments on samma-samadhi. You > wrote: > > R: "[Samma-samadhi] focuses on the object -- either a nama or a rupa." > > --> Dan: Didn't Buddha often speak of jhana as samma-samadhi? And > isn't the object in jhana a concept (counterpart sign in rupajhana, > an idea like "space is infinite" in arupajhana, and a being in > brahmavihara)? If so, then the object of samma-samadhi needn't be a > nama or rupa. > > On the other hand, I'd agree that in a moment of satipatthana, the > samadhi is samma-samadhi and the object is a nama or rupa. > > The object, then, would not be a reliable indicator as to whether the > samadhi is samma or miccha. Do you have a scriptural reference that > discusses the object of samma-samadhi as a nama or rupa? _________________ Dear Dan, Always good to have you around the list. My last post was a bit abbreviated. Larry asked about samma-samadhi as it applies to satipatthana in daily life; so in the letter I was referring only to the development of vipassana, not mundane jhana. Of course as you indicate there are 2 types of samma-samadhi in the texts: and the object of mundane jhana is not nama or rupa. http://www.abhidhamma.org/an4-41.html The samadhi sutta explains different types of samma-samadhi, the last two types having the aggregates (nama and rupa) as object. The commentaries also have much. For example: The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (mundane jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc]; and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"endquote RobertK 23830 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Dear Sarah: Sarah:"Thx for the choice - as this is simpler to type, > I’ll think I’ll stick to > it now, following the majority;-)(I just heard about > Icarus2 crossing the > English channel....)" ----------------------------------------------------- heheheh!!!! ---------------------------------------------------- Sarah: "BUT, I still don’t understand what arupajhanas, > clearly listed by you > below, has to do with ‘donkeys and desire’, i.e. > wholesome and unwholesome > chanda. Perhaps it was meant as an interesting > diversion;-)" ---------------------------------------------------- Sarah, you must take this only as a personal opinion of mine: Arupajhanas have got three aspects, or attributes, or modes of expression (!): a)Formless sphere Moral Consciousness (Javanas), b)Formless sphere Resultant Consciousness (Patisandhi, Bhavanga, Cuti), c)Formless sphere Functional Consciousness (Javanas, too!). When one speaks of wholesome or unwholesome chanda, it´s a mental factor or a moral quality of which is determined by the character of the volition (cetana) associated therewith.So, such statements are below the moral constraints and the respective formless Arupajhanas have got a "tinge" (if this could be possible...)of it: Moral Jhana consciousness dwelling on the 'Infinity of Space'. Moral Jhana consciousness dwelling on the 'Infinity of Mind'. Moral Jhana consciousness dwelling on 'Nothingness'. Moral Jhana consciousness wherein 'perception neither is or is not'. Exactly the same with the bhavanga and Javana Arupajhanas, but dealing with or assuming cetana´s moral conotations. As I´ve said before, that´s only my opinion. Corrections and suggestions are welcome!!! Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23831 From: Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Nori and Robert, Thanks for your thoughts on concentration. Any ideas on why concentration is called tranquility? "Tranquility" doesn't seem to be part of the official definition of concentration. Larry 23832 From: Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] proximate cause of panna. Nina: "N: . I prefer to keep to the definitions in the Commentaries." Hi Nina, What line is this a commentary to? Is there more to it? What is the Pali for "non-perplexity"? What commentary is it? What is a "good guide"? Larry 23833 From: g_sokol Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:34pm Subject: Hi! I'm Gene Sokol Dear Dhamma Friends My name is Gene Sokol. I've been interested in Buddhism ever since I took a course in it and decided to major in religion at the University of Georgia back in the '80's. I studied the major religions, but Buddhism impressed me the most with its depth of study in & about the human mind. I'm thankful to have stumbled upon this group and look forward to learning and sharing with all involved. The Dhamma is of great interest to me because I want to understand more fully the workings of the mind & the causation/cessation of thought-moments. Thank you for allowing me to join this group! 23834 From: Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Hi Sarah, Thanks for the additional info on nirodha samapatti. Larry 23835 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Very nice, Robert. Thanks. Dan > Dear Dan, > Always good to have you around the list. My last post was a bit > abbreviated. Larry asked about samma-samadhi as it applies to > satipatthana in daily life; so in the letter I was referring only to > the development of vipassana, not mundane jhana. > Of course as you indicate there are 2 types of samma-samadhi in the > texts: and the object of mundane jhana is not nama or rupa. > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/an4-41.html > The samadhi sutta explains different types of samma-samadhi, the > last two types having the aggregates (nama and rupa) as object. > > The commentaries also have much. For example: > The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." > The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of > meditative absorptions" > And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of > meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and > meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" > The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 > note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments > (mundane jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in > concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or > metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc]; > and the second means 'insight > wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the > three characteristics'"endquote > RobertK 23836 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! Kio I hope you don't mind if I make a suggestion here. --- suzakico wrote: > Having gone through your posts, I made my personal comments in this > file: > http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/nina.html > (I thought of posting the entire file here, but thought that it may > be too big.) If the file is too big you could divide it into smaller files and post them separately. That would make it easier for Nina to reply, and it would also allow other members to read your comments (and to join in by responding if they wish). Remember, there is no need to include the whole of Nina's original post when you reply; just the sentence or two that you are commenting on each time (it makes the post shorter, and it also makes it easier for others to read/browse through the reply.) Looking forward to seeing your comments on the list :-)) Jon 23837 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear Icaro and Sarah, As Icaro put it, it is very careful and right. I discussed this once with A. Sujin, and I thought if the kusala kamma is unprompted it produces unprompted vipaka. We cannot say this, she explained. We cannot measure the strength of a particular kusala kamma. We cannot pinpoint these things. Topics Abh, p. 197:different teacher's opinions about prompted kamma and result etc. Icaro, are you of Dutch origin? Tot ziens, Nina. op 31-07-2003 14:23 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Well, let me see my notes about it: > "All good acts are done by one of the first eight > Cittas, their effects are the eight great resultant > Cittas. 23838 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] wrong path factors Dear Rob, Just another matter, occasion for anumodana. Mr. Wong Malaysia wrote, He appreciates Zolag web, started reading more, has a sincere interest in Abhidhamma. So you see that an article of yours helps people's interest. I told him of our membership of dsg, invited him to join. Anumodana, Nina. op 31-07-2003 13:09 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Thanks, this makes sense to me. > > 23839 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 0:54am Subject: Bhikkhu Bodhi's reply Dear Larry, Jim, Chris & All, I wrote to Bhikkhu Bodhi about the Visuddhimagga copyright point , Jim’s qu and a couple of other matters. I’d like to share the relevant parts of his response: Copyright ======= BB: “There is no need to worry about copyright since you are only using extracts for purpose of discussion. Thus all you need do is give the source reference.” Sutta Nipata Comy ================= JIM wrote 1.: “Suttanipaata-a.t.thakathaa, pp. 46-52 on the Khaggavisaa.nasutta. Theragaathaa-a.t.thakathaa, pp. 1-19 on the introductory verses. The passages contain a lot of valuable information about mahaabodhisattas, paccekabodhisattas, and saavakabodhisattas. And there is a conversation between the Buddha and Ananda in the SnA passage about the time it takes for the first two types to become a buddha. ******* JIM wrote 2: “I don't think PTS would publish a translation unless it was the entire commentary. I thought that maybe BPS might have something in the way of translated extracts. It seems to me that these passages are hardly known in the English-speaking world. I have yet to study them in detail but from what I've read so far it's like a bodhisatta doctrine being laid out in quite an impressive way and a good response to some of those Mahayana critics. I think you will be familiar with some of the material eg. the 8 conditions needed to become a Mahaabodhisatta as in the Buddhava.msa, but there is also the 5 conditions for a paccekabodhisatta and 2 (adhikaara and chandataa) for the saavakabodhisatta. It would make for a worthwhile translation project sometime. **************** BB replies: “I have seen this passage and agree it would be interesting to read in translation. I don't think it is available anywhere in English. Perhaps if I can find some time I will try to translate it.” ========================================================== Sarah: I mentioned that many of us here were wishing him well with his various projects including the AN comy. Unfortunately, he continues to suffer from severe headaches at Bodhi monastery. He referred to these difficulties in an interview given just before we saw him in Hong Kong last year, but he asked me not to pass it round until it had been published as it now has. Christine, I’m sure you and others will enjoy reading it if you haven’t already: “Climbing to the Top of the Mountain” http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/2002b/bhikkhu_bodhi.htm It is published in the American Buddhist journal "Insight," published by the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies. As B.Bodhi just mentioned to me, his headache condition “remains impervious to every means of treatment. It is a major obstacle to my work, teaching, and meditation, but it is likely nothing short of a miracle will reverse it.” It seems that the benefit of Dr Ma’s treatment was very short-lived too. I also received a letter today from a friend in Bangkok. whom several people know, who continues to have rounds of chemotherapy with strong side-effects for her cancerous condition. Although she’s so weak and unable to go out much, she continues to listen to Dhamma tapes and reflect wisely. As the Comy passage I quoted the other day said, we’ve had lifetime afer lifetime of being afflicted by various diseases and ailments, but very rare is the lifetime that we have an opportunity to read, hear, consider and follow the teachings of the Buddha. I also appreciated that with all their other preoccupations and health difficulties, both this friend and B.Bodhi had been concerned about us and others during SARS. It’s wonderful to hear examples of metta and kindness from people at these times. With metta, Sarah ====== 23840 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions > Dear Nina: Nina:"As Icaro put it, it is very careful and right. I discussed this once with A. > Sujin, and I thought if the kusala kamma is unprompted it produces > unprompted vipaka. We cannot say this, she explained. We cannot measure the > strength of a particular kusala kamma. We cannot pinpoint these things." ------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina, sometimes East and West agree in such philosophical remarks... in Heidegger´s works I´ve read that our concepts of Reality are a matter of "Zuhandenheit", or "To be near, close or ´at hand´": not a question of measure with instruments (human mind included), but much more a sensation of proximity between To Be and Not to Be. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Nina: "Icaro, are you of Dutch origin?" ------------------------------------------------------------------- Heheh!!! Not at all. My father´s family came from Metz, France...but when I´ve travelled to Amsterdam in 1996,I bought a Berlitz´s Traveller Guide to Nederlands and I tried to speak a little. I could post a photo of mine here...but at the better one I am drinking with pleasure a glass of witte rum in a meeting of Star Trek fans!!! A defilement of the Path !!!!!! Prettig kennis met u te maken ! Metta, Ícaro 23841 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 5:10am Subject: DSG photo album Hi Icaro, --- icarofranca wrote: > .... I could post a photo of > mine here...but at the better one I am drinking with pleasure a glass > of witte rum in a meeting of Star Trek fans!!! A defilement of the > Path !!!!!! .... Please do post a photo or two in the DSG album (we won't look at what's in the glass;-)) -- then there'll be no chance of confusing you with Icarus 2. Go to the homepage and on the lefthand side click on photos: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup There are a few folders and one is marked ‘members’ - add your pic there (ask Christine, James or Kom if you get lost or need any help - James can even remove grey hairs or add muscles;-)) We’d be very glad if any other new or old members add pix here as well - also any of ‘Significant Others’ in the next album. Enjoy looking at the rest of us while you’re there. Metta, Sarah ======= 23842 From: robmoult Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 5:13am Subject: Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Icaro, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > Sarah, you must take this only as a personal > opinion of mine: > Arupajhanas have got three aspects, or attributes, > or modes of expression (!): > a)Formless sphere Moral Consciousness (Javanas), > b)Formless sphere Resultant Consciousness > (Patisandhi, Bhavanga, Cuti), > c)Formless sphere Functional Consciousness > (Javanas, too!). > When one speaks of wholesome or unwholesome > chanda, it´s a mental factor or a moral quality of > which is determined by the character of the volition > (cetana) associated therewith.So, such statements are > below the moral constraints and the respective > formless Arupajhanas have got a "tinge" (if this could > be possible...)of it: > Moral Jhana consciousness dwelling on the > 'Infinity of Space'. > Moral Jhana consciousness dwelling on the > 'Infinity of Mind'. > Moral Jhana consciousness dwelling on > 'Nothingness'. > Moral Jhana consciousness wherein 'perception > neither is or is not'. > Exactly the same with the bhavanga and Javana > Arupajhanas, but dealing with or assuming cetana´s > moral conotations. > As I´ve said before, that´s only my opinion. > Corrections and suggestions are welcome!!! I've only got a few minutes before signing off for a week, but I wanted to let you know that I have been following your posts with interest. My understanding that it is the nature of the roots that determine the quality (kusala / akusala / rootless) of a citta. The cetasika has the function of organizing the associated cetasikas and when cetana arises in rooted cittas, cetana also has the function of creating kamma. The type of kamma created depends on the nature of the roots. A minor quibble with terminology, not sure if it impacts the thrust of your argument. I am looking forward to chatting more with you when I get back from vacation. Metta, Rob M :-) 23843 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 5:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] DSG photo album Hi Sarah:" Please do post a photo or two in the DSG album (we > won't look at what's in > the glass;-)) -- then there'll be no chance of > confusing you with Icarus > 2." ------------------------------------------------------ heheheheheheh!!!! Right! I will do it !!! Metta, Ícaro > > Go to the homepage and on the lefthand side click on > photos: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup > > There are a few folders and one is marked ‘members’ > - add your pic there > (ask Christine, James or Kom if you get lost or need > any help - James can > even remove grey hairs or add muscles;-)) > > We’d be very glad if any other new or old members > add pix here as well - > also any of ‘Significant Others’ in the next album. > Enjoy looking at the > rest of us while you’re there. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23844 From: Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Bodhi's reply Hi, sarah (and all) - In a message dated 8/1/03 3:55:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > The passages contain a lot of valuable information > about mahaabodhisattas, paccekabodhisattas, and > saavakabodhisattas. And there is a conversation between the Buddha and > Ananda in the SnA passage about the time it takes for the first two types > to become a buddha. > ========================= I must have missed the preceding posts pertaining to this. It is clear to me what mahaabodhisattas and paccekabodhisattas are, but I don't know what it would mean to be a saavakabodhisatta. Does it just mean someone who will become (or has vowed to become) an arahant, or does it mean something more? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23845 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 5:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Role of jhana (Dhammasangini) Jim Thanks very much for bringing up this interesting reference. I don't have any familiarity with this text, but I've had a quick look at the PTS translation ('Buddhist Psychological Ethics') and the commentary ('Atthasaalinii', also by BPS as 'The Expositor'), and I think your tentative interpretation is likely to be correct. A couple of preliminary observations. In Buddhist Psychological Ethics, the section on supramundane consciousness is dealt with in chapter 5 and this particular passage is in the section 'The First Path' (i.e., dealing with attainment of stream entry) under the heading 'The Twenty Great Methods' (viisati mahaanayaa -- a reference to jhana and the other 19). As you remark, the first section dealing with jhana is lengthy, but in remarks immediately following that section it is made clear that exactly the same detail also applies to the other 19 methods. In other words, apart from the order of arrangement, there is no distinction between the 20 'methods'. As regards the commentary, there is some relevant material at pp 318 and 319 of 'The Expositor'. As I read it, it is saying that the difference between the 20 methods is a matter of personal inclination. It also says, as regards the various classifications given in the main work under the section dealing with the 20 methods, "Thus the king of the Law has shown the First Path in classifying it by a thousand methods." Thanks again for the reference. I intend to have a closer look at the text. Others who are familiar with it (Nina, RobK, Sarah?) may be able to add more. Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Jon, ... > I'm not exactly sure what the connection is between mundane > concentration and insight but your comments on this caused me to > consider the role the jhaanas play in bringing about supramundane > path-consciousness. In the kusala section of the Dhammasangani > concerning the lokuttaracittas, the first big part of it involves > developing supramundane jhaana but when I got to section 358 it > goes > on to describe 19 other great methods in addition. eg. he develops > supramundane satipatthana... This whole section tells me that there > are other ways of attaining path-consciousness besides the jhaana > method. In other words, like the jhaana method these other methods > can also serve as a basis even though the path-consciousness is > automatically accompanied by the 1st jhaana. Do you think that many > of > these methods are descriptive of the way of a sukkhavipassaka? I'm > reading that it does and I'm wondering if you agree. There is > uncertainty with some of the methods such as supramundane samatha > (is it different from the jhaana method?). > > Best wishes, > Jim 23846 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Bodhi's reply Hi Howard, When I used the term 'saavakabodhisattas' I was taking it from memory. But your post had me worried for moment thinking that the term might not be in the commentaries. I checked, and sure enough it is used but not often. It's not in the tipitaka, but is found in the atthakathas and tikas. If the Theragatha commentarial passage ever gets translated it will become clear who these bodhisattas are. Yes, they become the arahants that we are familiar with in the Tipitaka. In terms of the conditions needed to be a saavakabodhisatta there are only two (adhikaaro and chandataa) in contrast to the eight needed for the mahaabodhisatta and five for the paccekabodhisatta. Best wishes, Jim > ========================= > I must have missed the preceding posts pertaining to this. It is clear > to me what mahaabodhisattas and paccekabodhisattas are, but I don't know what > it would mean to be a saavakabodhisatta. Does it just mean someone who will > become (or has vowed to become) an arahant, or does it mean something more? > > With metta, > Howard 23847 From: Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Bodhi's reply Hi, Jim - In a message dated 8/1/03 9:39:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jimanderson_on@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > When I used the term 'saavakabodhisattas' I was taking it from memory. > But your post had me worried for moment thinking that the term might > not be in the commentaries. I checked, and sure enough it is used but > not often. It's not in the tipitaka, but is found in the atthakathas > and tikas. If the Theragatha commentarial passage ever gets translated > it will become clear who these bodhisattas are. Yes, they become the > arahants that we are familiar with in the Tipitaka. In terms of the > conditions needed to be a saavakabodhisatta there are only two > (adhikaaro and chandataa) in contrast to the eight needed for the > mahaabodhisatta and five for the paccekabodhisatta. > > Best wishes, > Jim > ========================= Thanks for this, Jim. I presume that 'chandataa' means aspiration or vow. What does 'adhikaaro' mean, please? Would it mean perserverence? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23848 From: suzakico Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! > I hope you don't mind if I make a suggestion here. > If the file is too big you could divide it into smaller files and > post them separately. That would make it easier for Nina to reply, > and it would also allow other members to read your comments (and to > join in by responding if they wish). Thanks for the suggestion. After pondering for a while, however, I decided not to follow your suggestion because there are many subtleties here and there. Also, I thought those who are interested will take effort, and those who are not will not read this anyway. (As for me, I did this as I was interested to capture the most of her comments/experiences and check and cross-check my'practice/understanding.) As for how Nina may respond (if she wishes to do so), , I leave it up to her. Depending on how she may want to respond I am sure she/we can find the way. There are perhaps lots of monologue-like comment I made. Some may point something of value, others may not (but for my own personal reminder). It all depends on where in the journey we all are, so I think. Good day! Good journey!! Kio 23849 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] satipatthana Hi Larry, op 31-07-2003 02:34 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Could a satipatthana consciousness (panna?), on a mundane level, be > either prompted or unprompted? N: Yes How about Right Concentration on a > mundane level? Could that be either prompted or unprompted? N: Yes, because all mundane kusala cittas of the sense-sphere can be either prompted or unprompted. We know in theory, but at the present moment it is very difficult. When we reason about the buying of the cornflakes, we can know, but it is still theory. A good example. L: How about in a path moment? Could Right Sati and Right Concentration be > either prompted or unprompted? N: this is intricate. The Comy to the Abhidhammatasangaha states that these cittas are not classified as prompted or unprompted. I used to think formerly that they were prompted, but no, we should not say this.I try to look up more when I have time, Nina. 23850 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! Dear Kio, op 31-07-2003 20:04 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > Having gone through your posts, I made my personal comments N: I appreciate so much your good and sympathetic questions. You really inspire me. I like Jon's suggestion to post small sections of your file here on dsg, with some days in between, so that we can think matters over. Everybody here likes your remarks and questions, so let us share with all. Besides, I seldom go to webs, limited access and lack of time. Taihen desu! Looking forward, Nina. P.S. I am just preparing this series for zolag web, since a friend in Thailand who is very sick suggested she would like to translate them into Thai. 23851 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 10:20am Subject: subco Vis.no 2. subco Vis. no 2. Relevant text of Vis: tadanantaraa pana pa~n~naa bhaavetabbaa, saa ca atisa"nkhepadesitattaa vi~n~naatumpi taava na sukaraa, pageva bhaavetu.m; tasmaa tassaa vitthaara.m bhaavanaanaya~nca dassetu.m ida.m pa~nhaakamma.m hoti. But "understanding" comes next. And that has still to be developed. Now that is not easy, firstly even to know about, let alone to develop, when it is taught very briefly. In order, therefore, to deal with the detailed method of its development there is the following set of questions. Subco: tadanantaraati ``citta.m pa~n~na''nti eva.m desanaakkamena, With regard to the words, coming next to this, ³concentration and understanding² (as mentioned): according to the manner of teaching pa.tipattikkamena ca tassa samaadhissa anantaraa. and according to the manner of practice, understanding comes next to this concentration. pa~n~naa bhaavetabbaa samaadhibhaavanaaya samannaagatena bhikkhunaati sambandho. With regard to the words, , the connection is that understanding must be developed by him. ``pa~n~na~nca bhaavaya''nti eva.m atisa"nkhepadesitattaa, As to the words, , this has been taught very briefly, gaathaava.n.nanaaya.m vaa ``samaadhisilaaya.m sunisita.m vipassanaapa~n~naasattha''nti also in the explanation of the verse, as to the words, *; eva.m ativiya sa"nkhepena bhaasitattaa aya.m saa pa~n~naati sabhaavato vi~n~naatumpi taava na sukaraa. Since it is thus said very briefly, this, namely,< this understanding>, is not easy to know as to its nature. bhaavanaavidhaanassa pana adassitattaa pageva bhaavetu.m na sukaraati sambandho. The fact that the process of development is not explained is the connection with the words,. pucchana.t.thena pa~nhaa, kamma.m kiriyaa kara.na.m, pa~nhaava kamma.m pa~nhaakamma.m, pucchanapayogoti attho. Questions that ask the meaning, action, activity, the activity of asking questions, the undertaking of asking, this is the meaning. English of subco 1 and 2: no 1:In all aspects means: the aspects of access, attainment , the development of the "masteries" (of jhana), the passing beyond applied thinking etc., the discarding of materiality etc., the restraint of consciousness in fourteen ways, the acquirement of the fivefold benefit, thus it is , to begin with,with reference to the development in all aspects. No 2: With regard to the words, coming next to this, ³concentration and understanding² (as mentioned): according to the manner of teaching and according to the manner of practice, understanding comes next to this concentration. With regard to the words, , the connection is that understanding must be developed by him. As to the words, and when he develops understanding, this has been taught very briefly, also in the explanation of the verse, as to the words, *; Since it is thus said very briefly, this, namely , is not easy to understand as to its nature. The fact that the process of development is not explained is the connection with the words, . Questions that ask the meaning, action, activity, the activity of asking questions, the undertaking of asking, this is the meaning. * Here is a reference to Vis. Ch 1,7, ³the knife of insight-understanding well-sharpened on the stone of concentration, might disentangle, cut away and demolish all the tangle of craving that had overgrown his own life¹s continuity...² ******** Remarks: ³'When a wise man, established well in virtue, Develops consciousness and understanding'² siile pati.t.thaaya naro sapa~n~no, citta.m pa~n~na~nca bhaavayanti Now here the word is used for man. In this word the meaning of hero is implied, it is an extraordinary person. When returning to Vis Ch 1, this becomes clearer. It is a bhikkhu with the very refined sila of the bhikkhu, seeing danger in the slightest faults, who lives like an arahat. He is well established in the many kinds of sila. He develops concentration up to the degree of jhana and the supernatural powers and then he developsinsight, and finally he will attain arahatship. Vis. I, 6, also states: Nina. 23852 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. EngPali XIV, 2 Dear Jon, The subco is long and after many paras comes to vikkhepaa, distraction. I try to go on, but so slowly. I feel a study of the Vis text is difficult without the subco. I shall always be way behind. Nina. op 31-07-2003 10:34 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > An answer that attempted to explain it all > would accomplidsh neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, > besides lead to distraction 23853 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 3:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. EngPali XIV, 2 Thanks, Nina. I agree with your remarks about the value of the subco in studying the Vism text. I know you'll do whatever you can, and I assure you that will be vey much appreciated. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > The subco is long and after many paras comes to vikkhepaa, > distraction. I > try to go on, but so slowly. I feel a study of the Vis text is > difficult without the subco. I shall always be way behind. > Nina. 23854 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Bodhi's reply Hi Howard, > Thanks for this, Jim. I presume that 'chandataa' means aspiration or > vow. What does 'adhikaaro' mean, please? Would it mean perserverence? I didn't give it in English as I wasn't sure of the meanings myself. I knew that 'chandataa' was derived from 'chanda' (desire) but didn't understand the purpose of having the '-taa' at the end. The commentary (SnA I 49) explains 'chandataa' as 'kattukamyataa' - a state of desiring/wishing to do. So I suppose that means something like a desire to work towards realizing nibbaana. The 'adhikaaro' (meritorious act) is more difficult. The commentary gives 'adhikakaaro' and 'pariccaago' (giving up, renunciation, sacrifice) as the meaning. I'm not sure if this applies to the saavakabodhisatta, but in the case of the mahaabodhisatta it refers to the sacrifice of one's life, etc. I think this would be referring to the five great sacrifices. The resolve or aspiration (abhiniihaaro) succeeds with these two conditions (adhikaaro and chandataa). I think 'pariccaago' relates to 'caaga' (generosity) which is the subject of one of the six recollections. (see Vism VII.107ff). Best wishes, Jim > Hi, Jim - > > In a message dated 8/1/03 9:39:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jimanderson_on@y... writes: > > > > > Hi Howard, > > > > When I used the term 'saavakabodhisattas' I was taking it from memory. > > But your post had me worried for moment thinking that the term might > > not be in the commentaries. I checked, and sure enough it is used but > > not often. It's not in the tipitaka, but is found in the atthakathas > > and tikas. If the Theragatha commentarial passage ever gets translated > > it will become clear who these bodhisattas are. Yes, they become the > > arahants that we are familiar with in the Tipitaka. In terms of the > > conditions needed to be a saavakabodhisatta there are only two > > (adhikaaro and chandataa) in contrast to the eight needed for the > > mahaabodhisatta and five for the paccekabodhisatta. > > > > Best wishes, > > Jim > > > ========================= > Thanks for this, Jim. I presume that 'chandataa' means aspiration or > vow. What does 'adhikaaro' mean, please? Would it mean perserverence? > > With metta, > Howard 23855 From: Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] satipatthana Hi Nina, This is interesting that mundane sati and samadhi can be either prompted or unprompted. I'll have to ponder that a little. Larry 23856 From: suzakico Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 7:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! -1 Let's see if this works. Here is the first batch. This is about one third of the whole file. I will plan to upload the next when I see the indication to go to the next. Instead of cutting and pasting to select certain areas, I post as in my original file. Hope this is OK. I thank again for the accomodating atomosphere here that encourages the exchange of ideas. Please understand that I am simply trying to figure out what abhidhamma in daily life is - perhaps with a bit unique background - as everybody is unique obviously.... - Kio Introduction This file contains the story of Nina Van Gorkom about her learning experiences with A. Sujin, a Thai monk, the author of A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas (http://www.abhidhamma.org/survey6.pdf.). Nina?Es books include Abhidhamma in Daily Life (http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html )and Buddhism In Daily Live (see http://www.abhidhamma.org/buddhism_in_daily_life.htm ), I met her at the dhamma study group at yahoo! Group. Since I only studied their books and articles briefly, my knowledge of Abhidhamma is very limited. Yet, I sense there is something very common in her expression that I can identify with. Since Nina was generous enough to respond to my questions on abhidhamma, etc., I am very glad that I got this opportunity to share my view with her. I put my comments in the parenthesis ((..)) although they are more like my monologue. This file may go through another refinement. So, please note that at this moment. - Kio Suzaki (July 31, 2003) My First Inquiry to Nina #23142 by me (The dialogue took place at the dhamma study group at Yahoo! Group) As I am just stopping by, I am hopeful not to disturb the flow of the discussion going on here. But as I read the book, A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas perhaps for 4-5 hours worth and 1/3 of it so far, I came back with a question that I appreciate it very much if you can address for me as much as you must have gained great benefit from the book and the interaction with Sujin. Anyway, here is my question: Why is it so necessary to analyze the mind and body phenomena in the way suggested, i.e., dividing by various terms to distinguish them in detail? (This book points out 16 levels of vipassana nana (knowledge). 89-129 types of consciousness (citta), 52 types of mental factor, 28 types of physical phenomenon, etc.) At least for me, this is too cumbersome and makes me feels like losing the holistic picture although this may be beneficial for specifically focused training. (My sense however is that even the training/meditation may be too complex.) Furthermore at least from reading the sutta, it appears that the Buddha never went into such a detail. I realize that once interested and realized the benefit, we may want to explore to the detail and find the joy in such exploration. I just want to get your personal feedback on this concern. Kio #23160 by Nina Kiosan, O Genki desu ka? I hope you will stay here, not just passing. Welcome. I appreciate your interest in Survey. See below. op 26-06-2003 20:14 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: But as I read the book, A Survey of > Paramattha Dhammas perhaps for 4-5 hours worth and 1/3 of it so far, > I came back with a question that I appreciate it very much if you > can address for me as much as you must have gained great benefit > from the book and the interaction with Sujin. Nina: This is not a book one can read quickly. It is good to start looking up items that you are interested in. Under Samatha: a careful explanation of what meditation is, the difference between samatha and vipassana. Under Realities and Concepts: what are ultimate realities, paramattha dhammas, which are actually the objects of vipassana. The last chapter: about vipassana in daily life. Suzakico: Why is it so necessary to analyze the mind and body phenomena in the > way suggested, i.e., dividing by various terms to distinguish them > in detail? (This book points out 16 levels of vipassana nana > (knowledge). 89-129 types of consciousness (citta), 52 types of > mental factor, 28 types of physical phenomenon, etc.) At least for > me, this is too cumbersome... N: Good question. We need you here on dsg. My experience: more than thirty years ago I lived in Thailand and went straight to A. Sujin, just asking questions. I listened in the morning to her radio programs in Thai, and in this way slowly I became used to the different types of citta, consciousness. It depends on the individual's interest how much details he is interested in, there is no rule. Do not cumber yourself. Some basic knowledge about different cittas , rupas, processes of cittas are beneficial, a good foundation for vipassana. But it is best to start in a very simple way: starting from this moment. Is there no seeing? We have a feeling of self who sees, but is this the truth? After seeing you become attached to what you see, or you have aversion. Are these moments not real? These are properties (cetasikas) arising with types of citta different from seeing. Seeing sees visible object, just what appears through the eyes. Visible object is not a person or thing, those are concepts we think of. This thinking is conditioned by association of different experiences that are remembered. Visible object is rupa. So long as we do not distinguish nama from rupa, we cling to a whole, we cling to self. ((This is a way to point the detachment in a different manner.)) Gradually you learn that cittas are conditioned, conditioned by past experiences, by accumulated inclinations. You experience praise and blame, gain and loss, and these do not stay, they are beyond control. They are conditioned realities. You may come to know that the understanding of different moments is helpful for you personally, in daily life. The aim of learning more about different realities is detachment. First detachment from the idea of self, and later on from all objects (for the arahat). ((Why self first? Perhaps, depends on the background?)) In the Survey it is helpful to read about citta, so that we come to know: if there were no citta, nothing would appear: no seeing, no thinking. All our experiences we find so important are merely different cittas which arise and then fall away very rapidly. Nobody can hold them or slow them down. Nobody can direct different cittas arising in processes in a particular order. A. Sujin helped me to understand simple realities like seeing, hearing, all experiences of objects through six doors. And this is in complete conformity with the suttas. Read for example Kindred Sayings IV. In the course of all these years my interest in details was growing, but this should come naturally, no forcing to absorb all at once. And then: we should know that intellectual understanding, though a foundation, is not direct understanding, vipassana, which is actually the development of right understanding of the eightfold Path. Understanding of the reality, nama or rupa, appearing at the present moment (ima, I liked that kanji). No spectacular progress, and it is subtle clinging if we wish for that. A. Sujin is most helpful to make us see subtle clinging. I needed many journeys with her and friends to discover that. In the course of years we went in a group of friends to India, and I visited Thailand many times. ((Learn to see is OK. What then is the principal process? )) We have aeons of clinging and ignorance behind us, how can this all be over in a moment? I am just grateful that I was enabled to discover for myself: this is the right Path, and it works. At least I can begin to develop it. But the more we learn, the more we realize: we are at the level of Kindergarten. In the beginning I was at times impatient, but now I am grateful for every little bit of understanding I gain. Also the discussions here in this list help me. ((Nina does not explain here but it appears the practicing the "quiet observation?Eis perhaps found as key. Still, why not discuss how to uproot the root of sankhara???)) S: and makes me feels like losing the > holistic picture although this may be beneficial for > specifically focused training. (My sense however is that even the > training/meditation may be too complex.) N: It is not a matter of focussed training, that would make you cling to a self who can focus. The aim is detachment. Let realities come as they are, and when there are conditions for understanding it will arise without you interfering. The conditions are: association with a good friend in Dhamma, listening and study, wise attention, practice in accordance with what you learnt. ((I guess this answer the question. So, it appears to be a mild way of attaining the awakening. It does not appear that there is emphasis on strong determination as in the case of vipassana meditation.)) S: Furthermore at least from > reading the sutta, it appears that the Buddha never went into such a > detail. N: Also the Abhidhamma is part of the Tipitaka, rehearsed at the first Council. See Useful Posts in the archives under Abhidhamma. In the suttas there are many details about cittas, but in Abh there are more details. If you doubt about Abhidhamma: it is mentioned also in the Vinaya. I hope Christine can help you with useful links, also to "Manual of Abhidhamma" which is good for a start. My book (on line) Buddhism in Daily Life is being translated into Japanese, Rob. K. may tell you more, he lives in Japan. I lived there many years ago, but forgot the language. I found Kanji very suitable for expressing realities, but I forgot it. S: By the way, I have some vipassana and Zen background as shown in > www.suzaki.has.it . Personally, Zen appeals to me because of its > directness. N: When in Japan, I found that there are so many Zen sects. Suzuki became popular in the West (I read some of his books) and now people think that all Zen is only that type. We have to distinguish different types. Vipassana appeals to me because I find it very direct, about simple realities in daily life. It helps me to understand my daily life. But no promise of a quick result, and that is very realistic. ((Her term vipassana and mine may have different meaning tied to the difference in our experiences.)) Nina. == Nina san, Kon-nichiwa > I hope you will stay here, not just passing Thank you for the offer! By the way, I used to go to the Netherlands (the place you live now?) quite often. But I am happy that this forum helps the communication so much at ease even if we are so many miles away from each other. (I live in LA) I am reading your books of `survey?Eand `daily life?EI found on the net. In the meantime, if you can respond to my question at your leisure, that would be most helpful. What I am curious first is to know your vivid, or perhaps inspiring moment you had at the earlier/beginning years with A. Sujin. I read some comment from the book on `daily life.?E But more specifically, how was your impression/learning from the first meeting? How skillfully did she bring the technical matter/Abidhamma–if I may say so- into the living/daily practice? Any specific event the you can highlight? Even a tiny incident that brought the message to you ?Everbally or behaviorally -may be very helpful. (If you have written such a story elsewhere, please let me know. So far, I found `survey?Eand `daily life?Eon the net) In the last post, you said: "I became used to the different types of citta, consciousness.?E What was the few specific incidents in your early days that you found the glimpse of dhamma? Then, you said, "it is best to start in a very simple way: starting from this moment. Is there no seeing? We have a feeling of self who sees, but is this the truth? After seeing you become attached to what you see, or you have aversion. Are these moments not real? These are properties (cetasikas) arising with types of citta different from seeing. Seeing sees visible object, just what appears through the eyes. Visible object is not a person or thing, those are concepts we think of. This thinking is conditioned by association of different experiences that are remembered. Visible object is rupa. So long as we do not distinguish nama from rupa, we cling to a whole, we cling to self.?E The above sentences indicate: the aim is understanding of mind- matter relationship, by dissecting or rather becoming aware of specific happenings that we experience in our daily life (that we were unaware of before). Such insight will enable us to become aware of what is going on ?Ein terms of cause and effect relationship to see the cause of suffering, etc. Such cause and effect relationship lead to the experiential understanding of four noble truths. So, practicing the `process?E(may I also say, sila- samadhi-panna?) will lead to elimination of suffering. The question: Did this rephrasing/interpretation make sense to you? Or, are you talking something more specific? Also, are you saying conditioned thinking is `always?Ebad, or at times bad? Any comment? The last point: From just skimming to read Buddhism in Daily Life, it appears that you do not put high importance in `formal?E meditation. Was this the case in your beginning of the Path? Did you start to do `formal?Emeditation later? If so, how and how effective was it? Or, are you suggesting that it depends on people? I realize I already posted many questions. So, I stop here. If you could answer in any way you prefer, I would appreciate it very much! Ogen kide! (bow) Kio Nina's Learning Experiences from A. Sujin #23249 Dear Kio, op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > What I am curious first is to know your vivid, or perhaps inspiring > moment you had at the earlier/beginning years with A. Sujin. I read > some comment from the book on `daily life.' But more specifically, > how was your impression/learning from the first meeting? How > skillfully did she bring the technical matter/Abidhamma–if I may say > so- into the living/daily practice? Any specific event the you can > highlight? Even a tiny incident that brought the message to you ?E> verbally or behaviorally -may be very helpful. Nina:I met A. Sujin for the first time in the Wat Mahathaat temple where a foreign monk was teaching about the jhanafactors, and also helped us to read suttas. We read the Parinibbana sutta and the Kesaputta sutta (mostly called Kalama sutta). I was impressed that you do not have to accept anything from others, but have to find out the truth for yourself. A. Sujin kept rather to the background in this temple. I approached her and said that I wanted to learn about meditation that you can apply in daily life. My life was very busy, being in the diplomatic service. (In Japan the teachers at the language school (nihongo no gakko de) called me "Mrs Party". I felt there must something else in life, not just being engaged with parties. A. Sujin said, yes, vipassana can be developed in daily life, and she invited me to her house. From then on I came several times a week with many questions. I asked her about belief in God and how to find out the truth. She answered: what is truth will appear. She also helped me to see what is clinging, clinging to a belief. I had never considered this before. She said from the beginning that in the teaching of Dhamma, the person who teaches is not important, it is not the person but it is the Dhamma that matters. This was new also for Thais; in Asean countries there is a great respect for teachers (sensei!) and people tend to follow what teachers say, especially when they are bhikkhus. When teachers wrote about Dhamma in olden times they would not mention the source of their quotes. A. Sujin greatly contributed to a change in this mentality, always encouraging to looking up the texts oneself, verifying the truth for oneself. She started interest in the translations of Commentaries and promoted this. I remember our visits to the library of Wat Bovornives and our conversations with monks. A friend made notes and gradually Commentaries in Thai were printed. A. Sujin gave lectures in a temple every Sunday and quoted suttas. She asked a monk ahead of time about the Commentary to the relevant text. I tried to look up the suttas in my English editions. (This is all for now, it will be continued.) Nina. == #23281 Dear Kio and all, My time with A. Sujin. 2. When I was at her house, she explained about nama and rupa, about kusala citta and akusala citta. She answered my questions and very soon made me work for an English radio program. The first chapters that you find in Buddhism in Daily Life are from my notes with my conversations with A. Sujin. Every two weeks I had to finish a new chapter. It was a busy, but happy time. She helped me to see that all those different cittas, cetasikas and rupas occur in daily life. I learnt that whatever occurs is conditioned; that good and bad inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and that these condition our behaviour. Everything I learnt was relevant to daily life. ((So, it may have been like on-the-job training ?Eusing daily cases to point the phenomena, what is happening, how we respond, and what to do about it (perhaps, quiet observation?E) An example: we visited a bhikkhu who smiled when I told him about my interest in the teachings. A. Sujin asked me whether I knew why he smiled. She explained, because of happy feeling, somanassa. This sounds very simple, but it made me realize that feeling conditions our outward appearance. ((Indicating mind-matter/body relationship.)) Conditions, she reminded me of them in the situation. We were waiting near a kuti, a bhikkhu¹s dwelling, for a certain monk. He was not there and I suggested that we would find out about him. She said, let us sit at this stone and just wait and see what happens because of conditions. ((Here, I guess she may have been teaching observation, detachment, patience, etc.)) We sat quietly for quite some time. What a good lesson, I am so grateful for all those reminders I received in the situation. It is true: we think of people we want to meet, but in fact, there are only different experiences, such as seeing, hearing and thinking, and they are all conditioned. Seeing and hearing are conditioned by kamma, thinking are kusala cittas or akusala cittas which have as objects the story, a whole of all our impressions. I was used to take notice only of the outward appearance of people, but now I learnt about different cittas which condition our behaviour. People may look very pleasant and peaceful, but what do we know about the cittas which change from moment to moment? ((So, these were the practices of "know thyself?Eusing others and our own situation as examples.)) When crossing a street she said: elements on elements, and it is so true: hardness appears, and it is only an element. ((Pointing to the direct experience as opposed to intellectual understanding.)) We think of feet and street, but let us consider what can be directly experienced. However, it took many years before all these lessons were absorbed, and I needed later on during different journeys many explanations about the difference between thinking and awareness, before I understood a little more. (Later on I come back to this). A. Sujin used to go in retreat in a center but one day she realized that actually daily realities are the objects of vipassana. From then on she did not go anymore in retreat, and this happened not so long before I met her. ((This is very interesting. Here is a question of balance. One to de-root the root of sankhara. The other to practice in daily life paying attention to everything ?Eand to maintain awareness and equanimity at all times. It may require one to be at certain level to do this. Question: The Buddha kept meditation practice throughout his life. Why?)) Since most people were not used to this approach, they had many questions about vipassana in daily life. I found this approach the only reasonable one and did not doubt about its value. We have to know our own accumulations, our inclinations we take for self. They appear, and thus, they can be objects of insight. ((If this is the reason of daily practice, I see the same possible in meditation as found in my case and many others. It is a practice in the controlled setting, yet to be practiced in daily life obviously.)) A. Sujin always stressed that there is no rule about how one should develop understanding and that one cannot direct what object appears at a particular moment. I find this most reasonable, because whatever is experienced by citta is conditioned. We went to different temples, also in the province. People asked questions about vipassana and concentration. Although I was just learning Thai, A. Sujin made me talk as well. I enjoyed simple life in the province, without any fringes. People treated me as one of them, and that is what makes me happy. People asked whether slowing down one¹s movements would help vipassana. A. Sujin asked one person to run and to find out whether there is any difference as to what realities are appearing. The conclusion was : it is all the same. ((So far as one pays attention carefully to gain understanding/insight.)) True, seeing is always seeing, no matter we run or sit. Seeing is a citta, an ultimate reality that should be known as it is, non-self. I heard a dog barking and asked whether hearing a dog is an object of insight. She explained that hearing just sound is different from thinking of a dog. ((See points to the detached observation. This is to let us see how the mind moves from first receiving the sound before our conditioned mind to respond.)) I listened, but only many years later I understood the point. People also asked: is this kusala, is that akusala. Her answer: you can only know for yourself. ((- Given that person has a calm detached mind with awareness and equanimity to bring out the insight.)) Nobody else can tell you. She also explained that it would be very easy if someone else tells you: do first this, then that and you will make progress. Her advice always was : there are no rules, there is no specific order of the objects insight can be developed. ((What about sila-samadhgi-panna? What about awareness and equanimity, detached observation, patience, realization of conditioned mind behavior, awareness of mind-matter relationship, etc., etc.? I feel that there is what I would like to call a principle way.)) In the whole of the Tipitaka we learn about realities that arise because of conditions and are non-self, now also in the practice we have to be consistent, how can we force ourselves to be aware of specific objects. She kept on warning us of subtle clinging to progress, to result. Expectations are lobha, attachment. She repeated many times: Don't expect anything. ((Certainly! No seeking mind!! If you seek for it, you will not find it.)) We should not expect anything from ourselves nor from others. Expectations bring sorrow. I am grateful for her example in this matter, and her example of patience and equanimity. Some people heavily criticized her, but she was always patient and she calmly explained about cause and effect: what cause will bring what effect. We should be clear about this. Do we want only calm or is understanding our aim? (will be continued). == #23306 Thank you, Nina for these posts. I am reading with the smile and the curiosity of a child! Kio == 23857 From: Dr Jose M Sanz-Tonnelier Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 8:32pm Subject: Re: A. Sujin is not a Thai Monk suzakico writes: Dear Suzakico, A. Sujin is not a Thai monk because she is a woman. Women con not be ordaine as monks in Buddhism (Theravatan). Venerable Yanatharo > > > > > Introduction > This file contains the story of Nina Van Gorkom about her learning > experiences with A. Sujin, a Thai monk, the author of A Survey of 23858 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bodhisatta Hi Howard, I quote again from A. Sujin's Perfections: Nina. op 01-08-2003 15:55 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Thanks for this, Jim. I presume that 'chandataa' means aspiration or > vow. What does 'adhikaaro' mean, please? Would it mean perserverence? 23859 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] proximate cause of panna. Hi Larry, op 01-08-2003 01:45 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "N: proximate > cause of panna>. I prefer to keep to the definitions in the > Commentaries." L What line is this a commentary to? Is there more to it? What is the Pali > for "non-perplexity"? What commentary is it? What is a "good guide"? It is the Expositor, 122. See also Vis. XIV, 143, definition of panna. I took it from my Cetasikas. I mentioned: Dhammasangani, Book I, Ch I, §16, : panna as searching the dhamma, that is, the four noble Truths, as a guide, as a sword (see my subco transl)which cuts off defilements, as a light, as gloy, as splendour. I do not have the Pali of non-perplexity. Nina. 23860 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! Dear Kio op 01-08-2003 19:10 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > Thanks for the suggestion. After pondering for a while, however, I > decided not to follow your suggestion because there are many > subtleties here and there. Also, I thought those who are interested > will take effort, and those who are not will not read this anyway. N: No, this is not the reason as I said. S:(As for me, I did this as I was interested to capture the most of > her comments/experiences and check and cross-check > my'practice/understanding.) N:sounds very good, don.t worry about the monologues, or about the form, anything is good. So, I hope you change your mind, Nina. P.S. Do not send attachment, danger of crash. 23861 From: Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 9:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] proximate cause of panna. Nina: "I do not have the Pali of non-perplexity." Hi Nina, Maybe the Pali of "non-perplexity" is sati. Larry 23862 From: Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 9:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Hi Kom, If you can't find your copy of Vism. maybe you could just give us your understanding of insight knowledge (vipassana) and profitable consciousness (kusala citta) just to get the ball rolling. Larry ___________ "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 2. What is understanding? Understanding (pa~n~naa) is of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge associated with profitable consciousness. 23863 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 0:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! -1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "suzakico" wrote: > > > Gradually you learn that cittas are conditioned, conditioned by past > experiences, by accumulated inclinations. You experience praise and > blame, > gain and loss, and these do not stay, they are beyond control. They > are > conditioned realities. You may come to know that the understanding of > different moments is helpful for you personally, in daily life. > The aim of learning more about different realities is detachment. > First > detachment from the idea of self, and later on from all objects (for > the > arahat). ______________ KIO: ((Why self first? Perhaps, depends on the background?)) > > ___________________________--- Dear Kio, Partly it depends on background, or accumulations, as you say. Also it is step by step and this may suprise because anatta (not self) seems hard to understand while detachment from sense objects is not. ""Sense desire clinging is obvious; not so the other kinds" (the three types of micchaditthi, wrong view)Visuddhimagga Xvii 246. There are four types of clinging (see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire clinging, wrongview clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and lastly self view clinging. Note that three of the four are types of miccha-ditthi (the three include all types of wrong view from the gross to the very most subtle). The path of vipassana is said to gradually eliminates all three types of micchaditthi until at sotapanna they are eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna, then attenuate the clinging to sense desires. RobertK 23864 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! -1 Hi Kio (& James), I think you joined DSG while Jon and I were away - a big welcome and I was very glad to read your questions which prompted Nina’s interesting series. I’ve also been glad to know more about you and all your very extensive studies and interests from notes here and your website. Back to your post and glad to see all your notes, Thank you for sharing them with us here: --- suzakico wrote: > Let's see if this works. Here is the first batch. This is about > one third of the whole file. I will plan to upload the next when I > see the indication to go to the next. Instead of cutting and > pasting to select certain areas, I post as in my original file. > Hope this is OK. ..... As you ask, next time, I think it would be easier for us all, if you just posted shorter segments and deleted Nina’s posts apart from the few lines preceding your interesting comments if possible. (see DSG Guidelines on ‘trimming posts’) There is a lot to discuss further and I know Nina will also be glad to continue, but as she mentioned, just one segment at a time is easier for her. I see RobertK has responded to one. Let me pick up on the meaning of vipassana, as James also raised this recently with Dan. ****** >Nina: It is not a matter of focussed training, that would make you cling to a self who can focus. The aim is detachment. Let realities come as they are, and when there are conditions for understanding it will arise without you interfering. The conditions are: association with a good friend in Dhamma, listening and study, wise attention, practice in accordance with what you learnt. >KIO:((I guess this answer the question. So, it appears to be a mild way of attaining the awakening. It does not appear that there is emphasis on strong determination as in the case of vipassana meditation.)) ......<....> >Nina: Vipassana appeals to me because I find it very direct, about simple realities in daily life. It helps me to understand my daily life. But no promise of a quick result, and that is very realistic. > KIO:((Her term vipassana and mine may have different meaning tied to the difference in our experiences.)) ****** Sarah: I’d like to refer you to some past posts on the topic of vipassana in the first place. I’d be glad to hear any further comments you have. ******** Jon: (brief) Meaning of vipassana http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3663 Nina: (detailed) Vipassana in the texts http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6954 Sarah: Vipassana in a sutta http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8403 RobertK: Vipassana and Abhidhamma http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8170 Nina: Vipassana and Anatta http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21581 Nina: Vipassana in Daily Life http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22311 Jonothan: Vipassana and Practice http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6786 RobertK: Vipassana Meditation http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2018 RobertK: Abhidhamma and Vipassana http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8178 ***** Sarah: Look forward to reading further discussions between you, Nina and anyone else. With metta, Sarah ====== 23865 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 6:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] proximate cause of panna. Dear Nina and Larry, The Pali word for non-perplexity is asammoha. Other possible translations that come to mind are non-bewilderment and non-confusion (~Naa.namoli has non-delusion). I checked the Pali of P.M. Tin's translation and it is clear that he has made a translation mistake. 'proximate cause' should be corrected to 'manifestation' (paccupa.t.thaana). The proximate cause (padat.t.haana) of pa~n~naa is samaadhi or concentration (see Vism XIV.7). Non-bewilderment sounds good to me because it can easily be associated with "as it were a good guide in the forest" (forest = wilds, wilderness, hence bewilderment). Jim Hi Larry, op 01-08-2003 01:45 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "N: proximate > cause of panna>. I prefer to keep to the definitions in the > Commentaries." L What line is this a commentary to? Is there more to it? What is the Pali > for "non-perplexity"? What commentary is it? What is a "good guide"? It is the Expositor, 122. See also Vis. XIV, 143, definition of panna. I took it from my Cetasikas. I mentioned: Dhammasangani, Book I, Ch I, §16, : panna as searching the dhamma, that is, the four noble Truths, as a guide, as a sword (see my subco transl)which cuts off defilements, as a light, as gloy, as splendour. I do not have the Pali of non-perplexity. Nina. 23866 From: Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] proximate cause of panna. Hi Jim, Thanks for this, very interesting. It occurred to me that amoha could be translated as non-perplexity and to use it as the proximate cause of panna would give it a slightly different shade of meaning, rather than being considered a synonym for panna, as it usually is. Larry 23867 From: Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 7:59am Subject: concentration Hi Sarah, In the US a significant number of children have a learning disability called Attention Deficit Syndrome and it is starting to be diagnosed in adults. Is that the case in Hong Kong? I think ADS may not be a deficiency of attention, but rather a deficiency of concentration, the ability to cognize an object repeatedly. As a teacher of young children how do you prompt the arising of concentration in your students and how do you teach them to prompt the arising of concentration in themselves? I have a theory that one way is with memory repetition practices: the repeated recitation of texts, arithmetic and spelling formulas. And I was wondering if the monastic use of repeated recitation of suttas was an aid to concentration. What do you think? Also, I was wondering if you have any ideas on why concentration IS tranquility when it is linked with insight as in "tranquility and insight". When I concentrate I am distinctly un-tranquil. Larry 23868 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 8:02am Subject: RE: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Hi Larry, Sorry for the slow response. I managed to fetch my copy out of the storage (along with other books), but my computer crashed recently, so haven't gotten the opportunity to get back to this yet. I am responding to this not having looked at Vim yet... Vipassana-nana, or the insight knowledge, is the clear comprehension of the characteristics of realities. There are 16 levels, which are attainment levels, of clear comprehension starting with nama-rupa paricheta nana, or the separation of nama and rupa. What does insight knowledge cognitive of? The realities, the kandhas, the sense bases, and the dhatus, all realities (paramatha dhammas), and not the concepts (pannatti, or objects of thinking). How does Vipassana-nana come about? It comes from the development of panna starting from panna at the listening level, at the thinking level, and at the practice level. There are many difficulties in learning about Vipassana. Firstly, vipassana is a clear comprehension of REALITIES. If we consider why the Buddha's teaching is said to be irrefutable, we can begin to understand what realities are. For example, when two people see a woman, one says she is pretty, and the other says she isn't. This fact of prettiness is refutable. The Buddha's teaching isn't like that. Aversion has the characteristic of repulsion of its object. When aversion arises, only a fool (well, moha or ignorance) would deny / be unaware of this characteristic which is irrefutable. The teachings of anicca (impermanence), dukha (suffering), and anatta (non-self, uncontrollability) are like this as well: they are irrefutable and inherent to realities. Second, vipassana is a CLEAR COMPREHENSION of realities. It is not thinking of realities. We may misunderstand our thinking of realities as vipassana-nana. For example, thinking that nothing is permanent is not the same as comprehending that nothing is permanent. Repeating to oneself about impermanence, or enumerating the things that we think are impermanent, is not vipassana-nana. Third, one doesn't jump from knowing nothing about realities to an immediate, clear comprehension of anicca, dukha, and anatta, unless one has been accumulating for a long time. Panna progresses in stages (hence the 16 levels). It is impossible to have clear comprehension of anicca and dukkha without first the clear comprehension of nama and rupa. It's important to learn about the difference between kusala citta and akusala cittas. We have them throughout our daily life. Without more refined and thorough distinctions between the two, we often take akusala as kusala. For example, when we see a small child, and we pet him, is that petting born out of kindness or attachment? Kindness and attachment both are co nascent with either pleasant mental feeling (and piti, or happiness) or neutral mental feelings. The mental feeling alone cannot be used to distinguish between the two. Even moha-mula citta, consciousness rooted in ignorance, is also conascent with neutral mental feeling. When we feel calm and undisturbed, is that kusala citta or citta born out of ignorance? Kusala is free from defilements (kilesa). When the consciousness is kusala, it is said to be mental seclusion (seclusion, or viveka, are two: body and mental). It is secluded from defilements. For a bikkhu who lives near town, he is said to be secluded if he is not defiled. When is the mind free from defilement? Only when it is inclined toward dana (giving), sila (abstaining from bad deeds, completing good deeds), tranquil development, or insight development. When the mind is inclined toward other things, the mind is defiled. How do you know what I said above is true? It must match the Buddha teachings, and ultimately, realities. We should prove to ourselves if what one says matches / diverges from the Buddha teachings, and when one has enough wisdom to prove/disprove it, then one no longer has to rely on others in the development of panna. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 9:53 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) > > > Hi Kom, > > If you can't find your copy of Vism. maybe you could just give us your > understanding of insight knowledge (vipassana) and profitable > consciousness (kusala citta) just to get the ball rolling. > 23869 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 8:21am Subject: A Pleasant Abiding Friends, Sorry, I've lost the thread where we were discussing this. I'd understood someone to've said that 'a pleasant abiding here and now' referred to jhaana for an arahant only. This, I think, is where I'd got the idea that it applied to the puthujjana, too: Cunda, it may happen, that a bhikkhu secluded from sensual desires, secluded from evil thoughts, with thoughts and thought processes, with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion, would abide in the first jhaana.would attain and abide in the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. It might occur to him, I abide in purity. In the dispensation of the noble ones, that is not purity, it is a pleasant abiding here and now. Majjhima Nikaaya 1. 8. Sallekhasutta Is the bhikkhu referred to here an arahant? I wouldn't think it could (mistakenly) occur to an arahant, 'I abide in purity'. mike 23870 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 8:27am Subject: life moment of beings Friends, I ran across the following passage in my notes but have lost the source. Does anyone know where this came from? ".in the ultimate sense the life moment of beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurence of one single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased the being is said to have ceased." Thanks, mike 23871 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 9:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Dear M.Nease: M.Nease:".in the ultimate sense the life moment of beings is > extremely short, being > only as much as the occurence of one single > conscious moment. When that > consciousness has ceased the being is said to have > ceased." ---------------------------------------------------- Your quote reminds me a Sisters of Mercy´s song (Track 5 of the "Vision Thing" CD): WHEN YOU DON´T SEE ME (Eldritch/Bruh) When you don´t see me... It´s not a matter of going to grow It´s not a matter of time or how I feel I´m throwing off the shadow of a better man now What you see is yhat you never had Get real Get another I don´t exist when you don´t see me I don´t exist when you´re not here What the eye don´t see won´t break the heart You can make believe when we´re apart but when you leave I disappear when you don´t see me... Oh it´s kind of different when you´re there you can lease the peace of mind you bought a mask, I put it on you never thought to ask me if I wear it when you´re gone Get real Get another I don´t exist when you don´t see me I don´t exist when you´re not here What the eye don´t see won´t break the heart You can make believe when we´re apart but when you leave I disappear when you don´t see me... (...) and so on Well, that it is. Do you like Sisters of Mercy/ Andrew Eldritch´s tunes ? Sometimes Eldritch´s lyrics and themes have a very buddhistic core!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23872 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 10:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Hi Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Thanks for the great lyric--afraid I'm pretty much out of touch with the music scene these days (mostly listening to old jazz). Good stuff, though. Blissful is passionlessness in the world, The overcoming of sensual desires; But the abolition of the conceit I am -- That is truly the supreme bliss. Udana II, 1 mike 23873 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 10:40am Subject: FW: Meanings of dhamma, no 2. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:28:32 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Meanings of dhamma, no 2. Meanings of dhamma, no 2.. As we have seen, pariyattidhammo includes the ninefold (nine limbs or a²ngas) classification of the teachings (sutta, geyya, etc.) which is a classification according to literary styles, and not according to given texts or books (See Nyanaponika¹s dictionary under sasana). In the ³Baahiranidaana² (Introductory chapter of the Commentary to the Vinaya, by Buddhaghosa), it is explained that the teachings as a whole have been laid down as, ³This is the Dhamma and this is the Vinaya, these are the first, intermediate and final sayings of the Buddha, these are the Vinaya, Sutta and Abhidhamma Pi.takas, these are the Nikaayas from Diigha to Khuddaka, these are the nine A¹ngas commencing with Sutta and these are the eighty-four thousand Units of the Dhamma,² was rehearsed together by the assembly of self-controlled monks with Mahaakassapa as their leader verily observing this distinction.² Remark: thus, whenever the Dhamma and the Vinaya are referred to, the Abhidhamma is included in ³Dhamma². The following meaning of dhamma explained in the Dhammapada-Atthakata, is dhamma as an entity without a living soul (nissatta, nijjiva): <"Tasmi.m khopana samaye dhammaa honti, khandhaa hontii"ti (dha. sa. 121) Then, at that time dhammas occur, aggregates occur. aya.mnissattadhammo naama, nijjiivadhammotipi eso eva. this is dhamma without living being (non-substantial), it is also truly dhamma without life. Tesu imasmi.m .thaane nissattanijjiivadhammo adhippeto. As to these, dhamma without a living soul is meant in this case. > So atthato tayo aruupino khandhaa vedanaakkhandho sa~n~naakkhandho sa'nkhaarakkhandhoti. As to the meaning of this, there are the three mental aggregates of feeling, remembrance and formations (all cetasikas apart from feeling and remembrance).> N: Remark: the text quoted from the Dhammasangani (first Book of the Abhidhamma) states: ³At the time of consciousness coming into existence, there occur dhammas.² Thus, the aggregate of consciousness (vi~n`naa.nakkhandha) which is also a mental aggregate, is mentioned first, and then the other three mental aggregates denoted as dhammas are explained. If we do not see the whole context we may not understand why three mental aggregates are mentioned separately. ******* Nina. 23874 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 10:40am Subject: Perfections on Zolag web Dear all, Alan has now put A. Sujin's Perfections on Zolag web: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Nina 23875 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 0:36pm Subject: Re: life moment of beings Hello Mike, Visuddhi Magga VIII.39 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Friends, > > I ran across the following passage in my notes but have lost the source. > Does anyone know where this came from? > > ".in the ultimate sense the life moment of beings is extremely short, being > only as much as the occurence of one single conscious moment. When that > consciousness has ceased the being is said to have ceased." > > Thanks, > > mike 23876 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: life moment of beings Hi Chris, Thanks! Somehow I'd lost the 'V' and was looking in 'III.39'--good to have good friends. If anyone is interested, this is a really great passage. Another piece: '"Life, person, pleasure, pain--just these alone '"Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. '"Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive '"Are all alike, gone never to return '"No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not '"Produced; when that is present, then it lives; '"When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: '"The highest sense this concept will allow"' (Ndt.42) The footnote alone, dealing with atta-bhaava or sakkaya and pa~n~natti, is an amazing read. From the footnote: "...these are derived concepts, and this kind is a concept (pa~n~natti) in the sense of 'ability to be set up (pa~n~napetabba=ability to be conceptualized), but not in the sense of 'making known (pa~n~naapana)'." mike ----- Original Message ----- From: christine_forsyth To: Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 12:36 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: life moment of beings > Hello Mike, > > Visuddhi Magga VIII.39 > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" > wrote: > > Friends, > > > > I ran across the following passage in my notes but have lost the > source. > > Does anyone know where this came from? > > > > "...in the ultimate sense the life moment of beings is extremely > > short, being only as much as the occurence of one single conscious moment. > > When that consciousness has ceased the being is said to have ceased." 23877 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > > > > At the same time samma-sati, right mindfulness, does its work too, and > samma- > > sankapa, (translated somewhat misleadingly as right thinking) touches the > object > > and samma-ditthi, right insight, understands it. > > Do you prefer 'intention' or 'purpose' to 'thought' or 'thinking' for > sankappa? > > Thanks, _______________ Dear Mike, I get used to the pali word and sometimes the English term seems clumsy. But now that you mention it 'right thinking' is looking better. In fact I can't think of a better translation. robert 23878 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 3:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Effort Hi Ken, ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau To: Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 2:32 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Right Effort > Hi Mike, > > Thanks for stepping in with these totally appropriate > quotes. I hope so--I'm never certain. Even when I'm fairly sure, I'm never sure of speaking well. > I think Victor and I had reached a stage where > we both felt we were being accused of misrepresenting > (slandering), the Tathagata. When we overcome the > tendency to take offence, we see that there is an > important issue involved. I look forward to the day that I overcome that tendency...! > The true Dhamma is not going > to be around forever; any small part we can play in > extending it's lifespan will be a great achievement. A nice aspiration! Of course the intent is good (I think) and (if so) will have good results--but the saasana is doomed and no 'we' to play any part in saving it, in my opinion--except in a dream lasting only an instant. mike 23879 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > _____________ Nice to see your photo. Icaro. We have another great friend from Brazil, Leonardo , who writes here occasionally. I think I would like it, living there.. RobertK 23880 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections on Zolag web Nina: "Dear all, > Alan has now put A. Sujin's Perfections on Zolag > web: > http://www.zolag.co.uk/" ------------------------------------------------ Downloaded! Thanx Nina! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23881 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings rjkjp1: " Nice to see your photo. Icaro. We have another great > friend from Brazil, > Leonardo , who writes here occasionally. > I think I would like it, living there.." ---------------------------------------------------- What a shame! Drinking Witte Rum and defiling the Path, the precepts, everything on Buddhism... Even Cunda The Smith couldn´t handle a candle for me... Shame Shame > RobertK ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23882 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings rjkjp1: " Nice to see your photo. Icaro. We have another great > friend from Brazil, > Leonardo , who writes here occasionally. > I think I would like it, living there.." ---------------------------------------------------- What a shame! Drinking Witte Rum and defiling the Path, the precepts, everything on Buddhism... Even Cunda The Smith couldn´t handle a candle for me... Shame Shame Shame! But presently (I swear!!!) I´ve quited off such alcoholics!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23883 From: Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 5:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Thanks Kom, Well said. Bearing in mind that we will be analyzing these terms in detail latter, does anyone have anything to add or a question? Larry 23884 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 6:43pm Subject: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? hi, I was just wondering what everyones thoughts were on this. Dukkha by Gotama is defined as: "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha." There is no question as to whether the above is dukkha. But what about solitude? (which he suggests to cultivate) Is it also not dukkha? And what about the absence of love, company and friendship? Is it not dukkha? nori 23885 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 6:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Nori, ----- Original Message ----- From: norakat147 To: Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 6:43 PM Subject: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? > But what about solitude? (which he suggests to cultivate) > Is it also not dukkha? I think not--unpleasant feeling arising with aversion to the idea of solitude is certainly dukkha, though--easy to see this. Lots of subtler dukkha with, for example, attachment to solitude with pleasant feeling--still dukkha, even though pleasant. > And what about the absence of love, company and friendship? > Is it not dukkha? Isn't it just as in your quote?: "...separation from the loved is dukkha..." mike 23886 From: Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi, Mike (and Nori) - In a message dated 8/2/03 9:59:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > > Hi Nori, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: norakat147 > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 6:43 PM > Subject: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and > friendship? > > >But what about solitude? (which he suggests to cultivate) > >Is it also not dukkha? > > I think not--unpleasant feeling arising with aversion to the idea of > solitude is certainly dukkha, though--easy to see this. Lots of subtler > dukkha with, for example, attachment to solitude with pleasant > feeling--still dukkha, even though pleasant. > > >And what about the absence of love, company and friendship? > >Is it not dukkha? > > Isn't it just as in your quote?: "...separation from the loved is > dukkha..." > > mike > ==================================== As I see it, solitude, being a conditioned dhamma, is dukkha in the sense of being ultimately unsatisfying and of being unworthy of desire or clinging. Solitude can be very useful, and it makes sense to seek it out. But craving it when it is absent is suffering, clinging to it when present is suffering, and finally losing it when it passes, which it will, is suffering, and that loss, itself, makes solitude ultimately unsatisfying. When it is present, solitude is pleasant, but still it is dukkha. All suffering is gone, totally and permanently, only when all ignorance, craving, and aversion are uprooted. At that point, still no conditioned dhamma satisfies, but neither does it disappoint. There is, at that point, a perfect and permanent satisfaction independent of the presence or absence of any particular condition or conditions, because freedom has been realized. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23887 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Howard and Nori, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? > Hi, Mike (and Nori) - > > In a message dated 8/2/03 9:59:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > mlnease@z... writes: > > > > > Hi Nori, > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: norakat147 > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 6:43 PM > > Subject: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and > > friendship? > > > > >But what about solitude? (which he suggests to cultivate) > > >Is it also not dukkha? > > > > I think not--unpleasant feeling arising with aversion to the idea of > > solitude is certainly dukkha, though--easy to see this. Lots of subtler > > dukkha with, for example, attachment to solitude with pleasant > > feeling--still dukkha, even though pleasant. > > > > >And what about the absence of love, company and friendship? > > >Is it not dukkha? > > > > Isn't it just as in your quote?: "...separation from the loved is > > dukkha..." > > > > mike > > > ==================================== > As I see it, solitude, being a conditioned dhamma, is dukkha in the > sense of being ultimately unsatisfying and of being unworthy of desire or > clinging. Solitude can be very useful, and it makes sense to seek it out. But > craving it when it is absent is suffering, clinging to it when present is suffering, > and finally losing it when it passes, which it will, is suffering, and that > loss, itself, makes solitude ultimately unsatisfying. When it is present, > solitude is pleasant, but still it is dukkha. I take all your points, except that I think that solitude it a concept (maybe you wouldn't disagree). Like many concepts, it can, I agree, be incredibly useful--but most of the time is the object of aversion or attachment. > All suffering is gone, totally and permanently, only when all > ignorance, craving, and aversion are uprooted. At that point, still no conditioned > dhamma satisfies, but neither does it disappoint. There is, at that point, a > perfect and permanent satisfaction independent of the presence or absence of any > particular condition or conditions, because freedom has been realized. It's just my own concept of nibbaana, but I think of it as being free of satisfaction or dissatisfaction. I think our only real point of disagreement might be 'permanent'. Always nice to hear from you, Howard. mike 23888 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] proximate cause of panna. Dear Jim and Larry That is right.The Vis. XIV, 143 gives non-bewilderment as manifestation. Here it does not mention the proximate cause. Nina. op 02-08-2003 15:01 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > The Pali word for non-perplexity is asammoha. Other possible > translations that come to mind are non-bewilderment and non-confusion > (~Naa.namoli has non-delusion). I checked the Pali of P.M. Tin's > translation and it is clear that he has made a translation mistake. > 'proximate cause' should be corrected to 'manifestation' > (paccupa.t.thaana). 23889 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Dear Mike, See Vis. p. 256 (VIII, 39). One of my favorites, the poem: Life, person, pleasure, pain- just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by... op 02-08-2003 17:27 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > ".in the ultimate sense the life moment of beings is extremely short, being > only as much as the occurence of one single conscious moment. When that > consciousness has ceased the being is said to have ceased." 23890 From: suzakico Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! -1 Thank you and Robert for the comments. As I could not fathom going back to read many posts at least at this moment, your summary was certainly helpful. Moreover, I appreciate the environment that was created in this sangha to share, facilitate, or clarify points for everyone?fs benefit regardless of their background. As for the way of posting the file, since there again was another comment, here are few ways to look at: 1) policy of this group, economy of server space, and reading speed in favor of trimming to the ?gessential?h 2) completeness of the file so that if there was a need to go back, it is easy to go back as opposed to figure out what was and what was not omitted. 3) ease of responding from the view point of the commentator, e.g, Nina. In my view, I did not want to pinpoint to the narrow area, thus sacrificing the potential of receiving the comment in wider scope. Perhaps, I can think of more different viewpoints. The point is that I just hope we do not create a bureaucracy but to deal with the task at hand. Or, if anyone would like to volunteer to coordinate how to proceed from here, please do so. Certainly, I do not wish to disturb the flow of discussion in this group as I mentioned in my first post. Sincerely, Kio 23891 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 10:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding Mike It was in discussing nirodha-samapatthi ('attainment of extinction') that we came to the conclusion that it applied only to the arahant and anagami. Jhana as a pleasant abiding applies to any being, as far as I know. Sometimes the different English translations for the Pali terms lead to confusion (I can't think off-hand what the Pali is for 'pleasant abiding'). Thanks for all your good quotes of late. I'm appreciating them. Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: > Friends, > > Sorry, I've lost the thread where we were discussing this. I'd > understood > someone to've said that 'a pleasant abiding here and now' referred > to jhaana > for an arahant only. 23892 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 10:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Hi Mike, Nina, Larry & All, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Friends, > ".in the ultimate sense the life moment of beings is extremely short, > being > only as much as the occurence of one single conscious moment. When that > consciousness has ceased the being is said to have ceased." ...... This is one of my favourite quotes as well. Here’s another one with a reference to asammoha-sampaja~n~na for Larry. “Herein, what single person moves forward? Or to what single person does the moving forward belong? For in the highest sense there is only a going of elements, a standing of elements, a sitting of elements, a lyind down of elements. For in each portion, together with the materiality, “‘Tis another consciousness that rises, another consciousness that ceases; Like to a river’s (flowing) stream that occurs in unbroken succession” (DAi193,MAi261;SAiii190) Thus this “dlear comprehension through non-delusion”(asammoha-sampaja~n~na) is the not being deluded about moving forward and so on.” Metta, Sarah ====== 23893 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 1:43am Subject: Accumulations, conditions, kamma, vipaka Dear Group, I don't know if anyone else has experienced this - you think you have the basics of buddhism under your belt, and then someone asks you a question and in trying to articulate what you think you know, you realise you didn't have a sure knowledge base at all. This afternoon was a monthly Dhamma afternoon usually attended by four or five friends. At one point, I was asked if accumulations were conditions or kamma (perhaps they meant both kamma and vipaka). Fortunately, they didn't expect an absolutely correct answer ... which is just as well... What do you reckon? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 23894 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Karma and reincarnation Peter A belated hello from me (I'm usually running well behind in my posts), and thanks for these interesting questions. I'd like to give my perspective on this difficult area. --- vajramantra wrote: ... > Is it possible to actually experience the law of karma and > reincarnation through the practice of meditation? It is said that through development of insight (the wisdom that sees dhammas as they truly are) there can be an understanding of the conditioning factors for dhammas, including the conditioning factor of kamma. > I mean, Buddhism is > known as a dogma-free spiritual system, still, when we look around, > we often see that good people suffer while bad people rejoyce. I > know > this is just the surface, and we always hear from teachers that > karma > does work, even if we do not see it. But this is still a kind of > faith, and Buddha taught that we should not accept something just > because it comes from somebody we respect, but we should carefully > analyze and examine whether the teaching is correct or not. Correct. So regardless of how something is presented to us, we know that it is not to be taken 'on faith', and it is up to us to view it accordingly. As I see it, the fact that there are instances of good people suffering and bad people enjoying life doesn't prove or disprove anything. What are your thoughts on this? So how > can one examine whether karma and reincarnation are facts one can > experience and not only something we - as Buddhists - are supposed > to > accept? I hope there is an answer that goes beyond "it must be true > because Buddha said so". Our ability to confirm something by direct experience is of course limited by the degree to which direct understanding of dhammas has been developed, so there is no use in aspiring to proof of things that are beyond us ;-)). We can, however, consider whether what the Buddha said about anything (e.g., kamma) is consistent with our experience or not, and we may thereby come to be a kind of tentative acceptance (this would be something that is neither a 'belief' on the one hand nor true understanding on the other). One other point to consider. I think you mention in a later post the problem of doubt and confusion about kamma etc. Doubts and confusion are inevitable as long as understanding has not been fully developed, so we need to get used to the idea of such experiences as simply another manifestation of the ignorance and wrong view that we know to be part of our latent tendencies. In a word, patience. But it's difficult to be patient unless there is also some confidence in the truth of what we have heard (Rob M's point, I think). Jon 23895 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] My realization on Compassion; How to love those who hate you Nori Welcome to the list from me. Thanks for sharing these personal thoughts and for your earlier questions/comments). No, your verses are not corny at all. I think they echo sentiments that are expressed in the teachings. Thanks for the reminders. We are all 'hypochrites', and probably moreso than we even realise! Of course, each person has his/her own way of 'reasoning' about these things. Allow me to mention the thoughts that came to mind on your original post. > - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower > life > forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What > is the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? J: Suffering is still suffering, no matter who experiences it or why. And in the ultimate sense, all suffering is self-inflicted in that it is rooted in one's ignorance, and that applies both to the person who knows that his acts are going to harm another and to the person who doesn’t know that. > Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know > what to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for > dinner or refrain from eating chicken. J: As Sarah mentioned, there is no compassion involved in refraining from eating [already dead] chicken, since there is no chicken that is suffering at that moment. (Similarly, eating chicken does not involve breach of the precept against taking life; only actually taking life, encouraging another to do so, or rejoicing in another doing so, does.) Just my perspective. Jon --- norakat147 wrote: > hi all, ... > This is: > > My realization on Love and Hate: > > Among the things I hate, are those who hate, > yet I hate (those who hate). > > Those who hate are born from hate, > yet I still hate (those who hate). > > What I love, is those who love, > yet I do not always love. > > Those who love are born of love, > yet I do not always love. > > ---- > Pretty hypocritical of me to have enmity toward those who hate; to > those who cause extreme suffering to me and others. > > Hope it doesn't sound corny ...was profound for me. > > > Just thought I'd share that. > > > metta, > nori 23896 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! I'm Gene Sokol Gene Thanks for joining the group, and for introducing yourself. It sounds like you'll be able to contribute much. Please feel free to come in at any time. Do you have anything you'd like to share with us on the subject of the causation/cessation of thought-moments? And may I ask whether the causation/cessation of dhammas other than thought-moments interests you also? Jon --- g_sokol wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends > > My name is Gene Sokol. I've been interested in Buddhism ever since > I took a course in it and decided to major in religion at the > University of Georgia back in the '80's. I studied the major > religions, but Buddhism impressed me the most with its depth of > study in & about the human mind. > > I'm thankful to have stumbled upon this group and look forward to > learning and sharing with all involved. > > The Dhamma is of great interest to me because I want to understand > more fully the workings of the mind & the causation/cessation of > thought-moments. > > Thank you for allowing me to join this group! 23897 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nori and Robert, > > Thanks for your thoughts on concentration. Any ideas on why > concentration is called tranquility? "Tranquility" doesn't seem to > be part of the official definition of concentration. I have been following your 'concentration' thread with interest. I hope you don't mind if I butt in with a couple of observations. The question you ask here is a difficult one, and I think it depends on what Pali terms you have in mind. The English term 'tranquility' is used as a translation of both 'samatha' (as in samatha bhavana, the development of tranquility) and 'passadhi' (the mental factor that is part of the distinctive characteristic of each kusala citta), and concentration is used for both 'samadhi' and 'ekaggata'. So my short answer would be that tranquility and concentration are not exactly synonyms, although the 2 terms are sometimes used interchangeably. As I said, tranquility is a mental factor (cetasika) associated with wholesome consciousness moment (kusala citta), and is particularly the factor that is developed in the case of kusala performed through the mind-door, i.e., when the object is 1 of the 40 objects of samatha (hence samatha bhavana/development of tranquility). Concentration can mean either the momentary mental factor ekaggata, or the fact of consciousness taking the same object for many successive moments. For convenience, let's call the former 'momentary concentration' and the latter 'sustained concentration'. Momentary concentration is a mental factor that arises with every citta. It is a 'dhamma' (conditioned phenomena). Sustained concentration is not a necessary factor for any citta. It describes a particular situation/sequence of dhammas. Sustained concentration is not a *necessary* factor for samatha bhavana (the development of tranquility). For example, reflecting on the teachings with kusala citta accompanied by panna would be an instance of samatha bhavana. Sustained concentration is, as I understand it, necessary for the development of samatha to the degree of jhana, but it is not given in the texts as a specific factor of jhana or anything like that, as far as I know (corrections welcome). On this point, note that those who have attained mastery of the jhanas can enter and leave the jhanas at will, or have alternate moments of jhana and non-jhana, without the need for sustained concentration preceding the jhana moment. The question of what is the factor that causes/allows sustained concentration to occur has come up for discussion before (I remember Howard raising it on occasion). From memory, the relevant factor here is vitakka, the mental factor that has the function of striking at the object. In sustained concentration, vitakka strikes at the same object successively, as I understand it. I hope this helps. Jon 23898 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 4:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Dear Jonothan Abbott: Jonothan Abbott: "Concentration can mean either the momentary mental > factor ekaggata, > or the fact of consciousness taking the same object > for many > successive moments. For convenience, let's call the > former > 'momentary concentration' and the latter 'sustained > concentration'." ------------------------------------------------------ Butting in... Correct. Taking on the Pali Dictionary of the Pali Text Society for "Samatha" we get "calm, quietude of heart" and "yanika who makes quietude his vehicle, devoted to quietude, a kind of Arahant". In English, "Tranquility" fits well as meaning. ------------------------------------------------- Jonothan Abbott: "Sustained concentration is, as I understand it, > necessary for the > development of samatha to the degree of jhana, but > it is not given in > the texts as a specific factor of jhana or anything > like that, as far > as I know (corrections welcome)." ------------------------------------------------------ At Yoga´s teachings (not the aim of Buddhistic Doctrine), concentration or "ekaggata" is the first step to reach Dhyana (Jhana): one applies continuous efforts on concentration and, after some time, Jhana or Samatha comes naturally. But there´s not so easy. The reason is that ekaggata has different dhammas, or sequence of dhammas. The jhana´s applicant perhaps ought to make a very continuous effort on concentration to reach such results. Corrections welcome too! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23899 From: vajramantra Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Karma and reincarnation Dear Jon, Thanks for your answer. You wrote: "As I see it, the fact that there are instances of good people suffering and bad people enjoying life doesn't prove or disprove anything. What are your thoughts on this?" That is what makes most people reject every kind of spiritual process. They say, "If there is God, why does he allow all these injustices to happen?" or "If there is a law of karma, why do we see good people suffer and bad people enjoy life?". It is easy to say, "Oh, it is karma" when someone else's house is burning, but when we suffer, it is a lot more difficult to ease ourselves with theories... Also, when we see starving children on TV, saying that "They must have been very bad guys in their previous lives"... I don't know... As you said, unless I attain the capacity to directly percieve how karma works, I cannot but believe... Otherwise the whole existence would be a meaningless chaos ruled by coincidence. Peter 23900 From: Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi, Mike - In a message dated 8/3/03 12:04:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > > As I see it, solitude, being a conditioned dhamma, is dukkha in the > >sense of being ultimately unsatisfying and of being unworthy of desire or > >clinging. Solitude can be very useful, and it makes sense to seek it out. > But > >craving it when it is absent is suffering, clinging to it when present is > suffering, > >and finally losing it when it passes, which it will, is suffering, and > that > >loss, itself, makes solitude ultimately unsatisfying. When it is present, > >solitude is pleasant, but still it is dukkha. > > I take all your points, except that I think that solitude it a concept > (maybe you wouldn't disagree). Like many concepts, it can, I agree, be > incredibly useful--but most of the time is the object of aversion or > attachment. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. It is a concept. It does subsume many interrelated actualities, though. Thus it's a well grounded concept - and an important one. Of course a specific sense of 'solitude', namely "citta-viveka" or "mental seclusion/detachment" is an actuality, a cetasika. ------------------------------------------------------- > > All suffering is gone, totally and permanently, only when all > >ignorance, craving, and aversion are uprooted. At that point, still no > conditioned > >dhamma satisfies, but neither does it disappoint. There is, at that point, > a > >perfect and permanent satisfaction independent of the presence or absence > of any > >particular condition or conditions, because freedom has been realized. > > It's just my own concept of nibbaana, but I think of it as being free of > satisfaction or dissatisfaction. I think our only real point of > disagreement might be 'permanent'. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm. I know what you mean. One balks at saying that satisfaction could be permanent. Let's just consider that a manner of speaking. The point is that there are no conditions in effect, and there will be none ever, that will result in a state of non-equanimity for the arahant. In brief, it is not really an error to say that the satisfaction (or equanimity) is permanent - never will there be dissatisfaction. Don't forget: Nibbana is the end of dukkha! -------------------------------------------------- > > Always nice to hear from you, Howard. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Likewise, Mike. ----------------------------------------------------- > > mike > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23901 From: Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 3:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, conditions, kamma, vipaka Hi, Christine - In a message dated 8/3/03 4:43:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > I don't know if anyone else has experienced this - you think you have > the basics of buddhism under your belt, and then someone asks you a > question and in trying to articulate what you think you know, you > realise you didn't have a sure knowledge base at all. > > This afternoon was a monthly Dhamma afternoon usually attended by > four or five friends. At one point, I was asked if accumulations > were conditions or kamma (perhaps they meant both kamma and vipaka). > Fortunately, they didn't expect an absolutely correct answer ... > which is just as well... > > What do you reckon? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time > ========================== Well, while I hear a lot of folks talking a lot about "accumulations," I never do hear much in the way of details. I tend to think of accumulations as perpetuated conditions that are not kamma vipaka in the sense of fruited kamma, but rather are kammic traces, mental inclinations/habits/tendencies/patterns, which serve as kammic seeds, the "carriers" of kammic energy, and which blossom into kamma vipaka in the presence of appropriate supportive conditions. So, for example, it is an accumulation coming to the fore at death which determines the realm of rebirth. There were volitional acts (kamma) which left that kammic trace (accumulation), and with the coming together of certain (internal) conditions at death, that kammic trace/seed blossomed into the kamma vipaka of birth into a particular context. This is the way I think of it. Of course, I could be all wrong! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23902 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 7:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding Hi Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 10:10 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding > Mike > > It was in discussing nirodha-samapatthi ('attainment of extinction') > that we came to the conclusion that it applied only to the arahant > and anagami. Jhana as a pleasant abiding applies to any being, as > far as I know. Sometimes the different English translations for the > Pali terms lead to confusion (I can't think off-hand what the Pali is > for 'pleasant abiding'). I don't know either--I'll try to figure it out later today. The paali would be good to know. This may also have some bearing on my question some time back about whether, in jhaana based on the brahma vihaaras (vihaara=an abode; a dwelling place; mode of life; passing the time), there might be said to be momentary rebirth in (or of) the brahma vihaaras (which may also be 'a pleasant abiding here and now'). mike 23903 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 8:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, conditions, kamma, vipaka Hi Chris, Here are a couple of things I accumulated(!) while trying to figure out the same thing. I included 'anusaya' as I think they accumulate too and are, I think, what Khun Sujin usually means when she says 'accumulations'. Hope this is of some use: aayuuhana (karmic) 'accumulation', is a name used in the commentarial literature for the wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities (karma, q.v.) or karma-formations (sankhára; s. paticca-samuppáda), being the bases of future rebirth. 'Accumulation', is a name for the karma-formations, and signifies those volitions (cetaná) which arise at the performance of a karma, first while thinking 'I will give alms', and then while actually giving alms (e.g.) for one month or a year. The volition, however, at the time when one is handing the alms over to the recipient; is called karma-process (kamma-bhava, s. Vis.M. XVII, IX, X). Or, the volitions during the first six impulsive-moments (javana, q.v.) depending on one and the same state of advertence (ávajjana, s. viññána-kicca), these are called the karma-formations, whilst the 7th impulsive moment is called the karma-process (kamma-bhava).... Or, each volition is called 'karma-process' and the accumulation connected with it, 'karma-formation'. " (Vis.M. XVII). Cf. paticca-samuppáda (2, 10) - (App.). anusaya the 7 'proclivities', inclinations, or tendencies are: sensuous greed (káma-rága, s. samyojana), grudge (patigha), speculative opinion (ditthi, q.v.), sceptical doubt (vicikicchá, q.v.), conceit (mána, q.v.), craving for continued existence (bhavarága), ignorance (avijjá, q.v.) (D. 33; A. VII, 11, 12). "These things are called 'proclivities' since, in consequence of their pertinacity, they ever and again tend to become the conditions for the arising of ever new sensuous greed, etc.'' (Vis.M. XXII, 60). Yam. VII, first determines in which beings such and such proclivities exist, and which proclivities, and with regard to what, and in which sphere of existence. Thereafter it gives an explanation concerning their overcoming, their penetration, etc. Cf. Guide VI (vii). According to Kath. several ancient Buddhist schools erroneously held the opinion that the anusayas, as such, meant merely latent, hence karmically neutral qualities, which however Contradicts the Theraváda conception. Cf. Guide V, 88, 108, 139. Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, by NYANATILOKA ----- Original Message ----- From: christine_forsyth To: Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 1:43 AM Subject: [dsg] Accumulations, conditions, kamma, vipaka > Dear Group, > > I don't know if anyone else has experienced this - you think you have > the basics of buddhism under your belt, and then someone asks you a > question and in trying to articulate what you think you know, you > realise you didn't have a sure knowledge base at all. > > This afternoon was a monthly Dhamma afternoon usually attended by > four or five friends. At one point, I was asked if accumulations > were conditions or kamma (perhaps they meant both kamma and vipaka). > Fortunately, they didn't expect an absolutely correct answer ... > which is just as well... > > What do you reckon? 23904 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 9:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 7:29 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? > Hi, Mike - > > In a message dated 8/3/03 12:04:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > mlnease@z... writes: > > > > As I see it, solitude, being a conditioned dhamma, is dukkha in the > > >sense of being ultimately unsatisfying and of being unworthy of desire or > > >clinging. Solitude can be very useful, and it makes sense to seek it out. > > But > > >craving it when it is absent is suffering, clinging to it when present is > > suffering, > > >and finally losing it when it passes, which it will, is suffering, and > > that > > >loss, itself, makes solitude ultimately unsatisfying. When it is present, > > >solitude is pleasant, but still it is dukkha. > > > > I take all your points, except that I think that solitude it a concept > > (maybe you wouldn't disagree). Like many concepts, it can, I agree, be > > incredibly useful--but most of the time is the object of aversion or > > attachment. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree. It is a concept. It does subsume many interrelated > actualities, though. Thus it's a well grounded concept - and an important one. Of course > a specific sense of 'solitude', namely "citta-viveka" or "mental > seclusion/detachment" is an actuality, a cetasika. > ------------------------------------------------------- Right-- > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > All suffering is gone, totally and permanently, only when all > > >ignorance, craving, and aversion are uprooted. At that point, still no > > conditioned > > >dhamma satisfies, but neither does it disappoint. There is, at that point, > > a > > >perfect and permanent satisfaction independent of the presence or absence > > of any > > >particular condition or conditions, because freedom has been realized. > > > > It's just my own concept of nibbaana, but I think of it as being free of > > satisfaction or dissatisfaction. I think our only real point of > > disagreement might be 'permanent'. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Mmm. I know what you mean. One balks at saying that satisfaction could > be permanent. Let's just consider that a manner of speaking. The point is > that there are no conditions in effect, and there will be none ever, that will > result in a state of non-equanimity for the arahant. In brief, it is not really > an error to say that the satisfaction (or equanimity) is permanent - never > will there be dissatisfaction. Don't forget: Nibbana is the end of dukkha! > -------------------------------------------------- Yes, I'd say 'done' or 'finished' rather than 'permanent'--but I think we're both getting at the same thing. 23905 From: lbidd1 Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Jon and Icaro, I thought of the two tranquility cetasikas too, but I think they signify the difference between kusala (wholesome) concentration and akusala concentration, these two cetasikas being among the 19 "beautiful universal" cetasikas which are present with every kusala citta. The absence of these two is the reason my concentration is untranquil, I think. Nina said the reason there is only one object in a citta process is because of one-pointed cetasika. This seems reasonable to me. However, I think the tendency to carry an object over to another process is also a function of one-pointed cetasika. For example, the object of a five-door process becoming the object of a series of mind-door processes. I agree there is a big difference between absorption concentration and the concentration that is the proximate cause of panna but I think the "repeating" function of one-pointed cetasika is the same, if differing in degree. I agree vitakka and vicara play a significant role in both jhana and insight processes. Is this where clarity comes from? The concentration that is the proximate cause of panna is also called tranquility in the expression "tranquility and insight". I can't really put my finger on the reason for this. Maybe it's the presence of the Beautiful cetasikas. Larry 19 Beautiful Universal cetasikas: faith, mindfulness, shame, fear of wrong doing, non-greed, non-hatred, neutrality of mind, tranquility of mental body (feeling, perception, mental formations), tranquility of consciousness, lightness of mental body, lightness of consciousness, malleability of mental body, malleability of consciousness, wieldiness of mental body, wieldiness of consciousness, proficiency of mental body, proficiency of consciousness, rectitude of mental body, rectitude of consciousness --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Larry > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nori and Robert, > > > > Thanks for your thoughts on concentration. Any ideas on why > > concentration is called tranquility? "Tranquility" doesn't seem to > > be part of the official definition of concentration. > > I have been following your 'concentration' thread with interest. I > hope you don't mind if I butt in with a couple of observations. > > The question you ask here is a difficult one, and I think it depends > on what Pali terms you have in mind. The English term 'tranquility' > is used as a translation of both 'samatha' (as in samatha bhavana, > the development of tranquility) and 'passadhi' (the mental factor > that is part of the distinctive characteristic of each kusala citta), > and concentration is used for both 'samadhi' and 'ekaggata'. So my > short answer would be that tranquility and concentration are not > exactly synonyms, although the 2 terms are sometimes used > interchangeably. > > As I said, tranquility is a mental factor (cetasika) associated with > wholesome consciousness moment (kusala citta), and is particularly > the factor that is developed in the case of kusala performed through > the mind-door, i.e., when the object is 1 of the 40 objects of > samatha (hence samatha bhavana/development of tranquility). > > Concentration can mean either the momentary mental factor ekaggata, > or the fact of consciousness taking the same object for many > successive moments. For convenience, let's call the former > 'momentary concentration' and the latter 'sustained concentration'. > > Momentary concentration is a mental factor that arises with every > citta. It is a 'dhamma' (conditioned phenomena). Sustained > concentration is not a necessary factor for any citta. It describes > a particular situation/sequence of dhammas. > > Sustained concentration is not a *necessary* factor for samatha > bhavana (the development of tranquility). For example, reflecting on > the teachings with kusala citta accompanied by panna would be an > instance of samatha bhavana. > > Sustained concentration is, as I understand it, necessary for the > development of samatha to the degree of jhana, but it is not given in > the texts as a specific factor of jhana or anything like that, as far > as I know (corrections welcome). On this point, note that those who > have attained mastery of the jhanas can enter and leave the jhanas at > will, or have alternate moments of jhana and non-jhana, without the > need for sustained concentration preceding the jhana moment. > > The question of what is the factor that causes/allows sustained > concentration to occur has come up for discussion before (I remember > Howard raising it on occasion). From memory, the relevant factor > here is vitakka, the mental factor that has the function of striking > at the object. In sustained concentration, vitakka strikes at the > same object successively, as I understand it. > > I hope this helps. > > Jon 23906 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, conditions, kamma, vipaka p.s. p.s. Here's something excellent RobK posted recently--I cleaned it up and reformatted it a little for my own use--hope I got all the paali OK. Aayuuhana.m (accumulation) in pa.ticcasamuppaada (dependent origination) is saòkhaara (volitional formations), specifically cetanaa. I wrote a little about this before: The Mahavagga tika (subcommentary) to the Diigha Nikaaya explains: "Aayuuhana.m sampi.n.dana.m, sampayuttadhammaana.m attano kiccaanuruupataaya raasiikara.nanti attho". "Accumulating (aayuuhana.m) is the adding together or heaping up of its associated phenomena in accordance with its own function". sampi.n.dana.m - adding together rasi - heap kicca - function Here is a section from the Mahanidana sutta commentary, where aayuuhana (accumulate) occurs in complex phrases (from Bodhi, 'The Great Discourse on Causation', p 65) about Pa.ticcasamuppaadda: "Deep is the meaning of volitional formations as volitionally forming, ACCUMULATING, lustfulness, and lustlessness." ("Gambhiiro, saòkhaaraana.m abhisaòkhara.nAAYUUHANAsaraagaviraaga.t.tho.") ".and [the meaning] of existence as ACCUMULATING, volitionally forming, and throwing beings into the different modes of origin" (".bhavassa AAYUUHANAAbhisaòkhara.nayo nigati.thitinivaasesu khipana.t.tho") It is an important aspect of Dhamma that is mentioned quite often in the texts. We shouldn't expect it to be easy to understand: "Deep is the meaning of volitional formations as volitionally forming, ACCUMULATING." Robert Kirkpatrick ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease To: Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, conditions, kamma, vipaka > ----- Original Message ----- > From: christine_forsyth > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 1:43 AM > Subject: [dsg] Accumulations, conditions, kamma, vipaka > > > Dear Group, > > > > I don't know if anyone else has experienced this - you think you have > > the basics of buddhism under your belt, and then someone asks you a > > question and in trying to articulate what you think you know, you > > realise you didn't have a sure knowledge base at all. > > > > This afternoon was a monthly Dhamma afternoon usually attended by > > four or five friends. At one point, I was asked if accumulations > > were conditions or kamma (perhaps they meant both kamma and vipaka). > > Fortunately, they didn't expect an absolutely correct answer ... > > which is just as well... > > > > What do you reckon? 23907 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! -1 Dear Kio, op 02-08-2003 09:14 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > KIO: ((Why self first? Perhaps, depends on the background?)) As Robert K. explained, wrong view is eradicated first. I can add a few remarks. Attachment to sense objects can be temporarily subdued by jhana, but jhanas do not last and after the jhanacittas have fallen away it arises again. When wrong view, such as taking realities for self and mine is still there, there is no way to eradicate attachment. At first we may not realize our wrong view, we may not realize that it is very harmful. It is essential to begin to see that we tend to take our experiences and our body for self and mine. When we consider attachment, aversion, all realities, as very important, as mine and self, we are completely involved with my lobha, my dosa. Whereas, when we learn to see akusala as mere elements we will take them less personal, at least on the level of theoretical understanding. We learn that they are conditioned, beyond control. They arise when there are the right conditions for them, but we can learn to have more understanding of them. The development of this kind of understanding is a long process, and only later on it can be directly understood that lobha and dosa arise just for a moment and then fall away immediately, thus, that they are impermanent. What falls away immediately, can that be possessed by a self, can it be mine? The sotapanna is without wrong view, but he still has lobha and dosa. However, he does not take them for self. Lobha and dosa cannot condition very bad deeds anymore which could produce as results an unhappy rebirth. When we reflect on this, it will be clearer that wrong view is to be eradicated first. It can also remind us not to delay the development of understanding now, of whatever reality appears, be it rupa, or any kind of nama, akusala included. This is very urgent. Appreciating your interest, Nina. 23908 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 11:32am Subject: FW: a correction Dear all, Jim pointed out a mistake in Atthasalini. On Zolag there is a special place for corrections. You can also correct it in my book Cetasikas. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 06:28:56 +0200 Aan: Gwyn Davies Onderwerp: Re: perfections and attachm. Dear Alan, Thank you very much, I announced it already. I have a correction now for Cetasikas, p. 321, definition of understanding by Atthasalini: change into . non-perplexity as manifestation. This was a mistake in the Expositor from which I quoted(I, p. 162) and corrected by a Pali expert. Nina. 23909 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] glass with rum. Dear Icaro, you make me laugh. A. Sujin would never say: don't drink white rum. Follow your accumulations, but at the same time, a moment of understanding can slip in. You have to know your accumulations, just as you are. Realities that are kusala, akusala. pleasant or unpleasant, they all have to be known in the end. They are all dhammas, realities without a self or soul, that is the main point. I do not go to webs and did not see your photo, but I see your writings, the best image of a person. Photo is only visible object, that is all. Nina. op 03-08-2003 01:30 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > > What a shame! > Drinking Witte Rum and defiling the Path, the > precepts, everything on Buddhism... 23910 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Dear Larry and Kom, op 03-08-2003 02:41 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Thanks Kom, > > Well said. Bearing in mind that we will be analyzing these terms in > detail latter, does anyone have anything to add or a question? N: Yes, I always like it when Kom adds something, gives us extra reminders. I saved his post. I quote from it: This is an important point: We like to jump, we find that the development is always too slow. Kom, do keep reminding us, with appreciation, Nina. 23911 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 1:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] glass with rum. Dear Nina, Nina: "Dear Icaro, you make me laugh. A. Sujin would never > say: don't drink white > rum." ------------------------------------------------------ Oh, well...fortunately I´ve quited off such things as Rum, whisky, wine...and Cachaça! ------------------------------------------------------ Nina: "Follow your accumulations, but at the same > time, a moment of > understanding can slip in. You have to know your > accumulations, just as you > are. Realities that are kusala, akusala. pleasant or > unpleasant, they all > have to be known in the end." ----------------------------------------------------- Right on point! Kamma´s accumulations have a definite start line. They bond us and grow...but this can be contained or even be extinguished. One of the main mistakes people do at this time is bear in mind thoughts as " I am a doer, I am a knower" and so on. In these years studying the Abhidhamma, the interplay between Citta and the Cetasikas, nama and rupa, to build on Reality, conjoined with the "rhythm" of the first chapter (in Pali) of the Dhammasangani fascinated me very, very much! Your works solo and with Mrs. A. Sujin, the "Introduction of Abhidhamma" posted here... and my own efforts on trying to read and understand Pali really raised up my mind to a better viewpoint about the ultimate teachings of Buddha. As I usually say, paraphrasing Axl Rose, "There´s a lot goín´ on !!!" ---------------------------------------------------- Nina: "They are all dhammas, > realities without a self > or soul, that is the main point. > I do not go to webs and did not see your photo, but > I see your writings, the > best image of a person. Photo is only visible > object, that is all." ---------------------------------------------------- Please...please... if you decided to look at my photo posted here, first take a seat, breathe deeply and think on compassionately that perhaps Cunda The Smith was so ugly than me!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23912 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 1:13pm Subject: Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Nori, This is how I understand it: Solitude is dukkha and so is the absence of love, company and friendship. The five clinging-aggregates encompass all conditioned phenomena, things, events, situations, activities including birth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair, association with the unbeloved, separation from the loved, not getting what is wanted, solitude, and the absence of love, company and friendship. However, solitude/living alone is extolled and/or encouraged in several places in the discourses.* So there seems to be a conflict: if solitude is dukkha, then why is it extolled and/or encouraged? Because as a way of practice, it is conducive to the cessation of dukkha. Peace, Victor * Train in solitude & the contemplative's task, Solitude is called sagacity. Alone, you truly delight & shine in the ten directions. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp3- 11.html 305. He who sits alone, sleeps alone, and walks alone, who is strenuous and subdues himself alone, will find delight in the solitude of the forest. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/21.html One alone is like Brahma, two, like devas, three, like a village, more than that: a hullabaloo. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/theragatha/thag03.html# 8 185. Not despising, not harming, restraint according to the code of monastic discipline, moderation in food, dwelling in solitude, devotion to meditation -- this is the teaching of the Buddhas. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/14.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hi, [snip] > > nori 23913 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 4:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Larry! Larry: "I thought of the two tranquility cetasikas too, but > I think they > signify the difference between kusala (wholesome) > concentration and > akusala concentration, these two cetasikas being > among the > 19 "beautiful universal" cetasikas which are present > with every > kusala citta. The absence of these two is the reason > my concentration > is untranquil, I think. Nina said the reason there > is only one object > in a citta process is because of one-pointed > cetasika." ------------------------------------------------------- Exact! If you keep you concentration practice with the thinking of "I am a doer, I am a knower, etc", only by fluke you could connect with the jhana. Right concentration is a conjoined aspect of Citta and the cetasikas... and that´s quite clear that the ekaggata -one-pointedness of mind - keep connections with the one-pointed cetasika. The interplay between Citta and cetasikas does all the show ! ------------------------------------------------------ Larry: "I agree there is a big difference between absorption > concentration > and the concentration that is the proximate cause of > panna but I > think the "repeating" function of one-pointed > cetasika is the same, > if differing in degree. I agree vitakka and vicara > play a significant > role in both jhana and insight processes. Is this > where clarity comes > from?" ----------------------------------------------------- It seems good to me. Vitakka and vicara make part of Jhana, because they ALWAYS enter into composition with consciousness - The six Particulars (pakinnaka: 8. vitakka - initial application 9. vicara - sustained application 10. viriya - effort 11. piti - pleasurable interest 12. chanda - desire-to-do 13. adhimokkha - deciding Only remembering that there´s no egoic activity at the sustained application. If the "repeating" function of one-pointed cetasika is the same, differing in degree" is really true, so there could have an aspect of Citta + cetasika assigned of it. ----------------------------------------------------- Larry: "I can't > really put my finger on the reason for this. Maybe > it's the presence > of the Beautiful cetasikas." ----------------------------------------------------- Perhaps so! Let´s see your list of beautiful cetasikas: ----------------------------------------------------- List: "19 Beautiful Universal cetasikas: faith, > mindfulness, shame, fear of > wrong doing, non-greed, non-hatred, neutrality of > mind, tranquility > of mental body (feeling, perception, mental > formations), tranquility > of consciousness, lightness of mental body, > lightness of > consciousness, malleability of mental body, > malleability of > consciousness, wieldiness of mental body, wieldiness > of > consciousness, proficiency of mental body, > proficiency of > consciousness, rectitude of mental body, rectitude > of consciousness" ------------------------------------------------------ (Obviosly it is not as simple as it seems... but add citta with any of these 19 cetasikas, with the appropriate nama and rupa. Metta, Ícaro > ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23914 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 5:59pm Subject: Wisdom Dear Group, A sutta from anguttara Nikaya 6. Punakåñasuttam Again the most important. 002.06. Bhikkhus, these five are the powers. What five? The power of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. Bhikkhus, of these five the most important and the one that holds together the rest is wisdom Just as the ridge pole is the most important and it is the one which holds together the rest of a gabled roof, in the same manner, of the powers of faith, effort mindfulness concentration and wisdom, the most important, and the one that holds together the rest is wisdom. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/002-balavaggo-e.htm RobertK 23915 From: Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 7:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Icaro: "If you keep you concentration practice with the thinking of "I am a doer, I am a knower, etc", only by fluke you could connect with the jhana." Hi Icaro, I agree and there is no real insight with the asssumption "I am the knower or doer". But if you remember to look (sati) for a doer or knower you might find there is nothing to find and no one to be happy about that. Larry 23916 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 8:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Larry and Icaro, Hope you'll pardon my butting in: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration > Icaro: "If you keep you concentration practice with the thinking of "I > am a doer, I am a knower, etc", only by fluke you could connect with the > jhana." > > Hi Icaro, > > I agree and there is no real insight with the asssumption "I am the > knower or doer". But if you remember to look (sati) for a doer or knower > you might find there is nothing to find and no one to be happy about > that. No one to remember or to look for a doer or knower and no one to find (as you say, Larry) there is nothing to find--and no one to be happy or unhappy about it. When these things are remembered they are only remembered by sa~n~naa, I think, when understood they are understood only by pa~n~naa, I think. Corrections welcomed. mike 23917 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 10:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Dear Sarah, There was for me a condition for aversion towards a particular person who misbehaved. Now this quote is helpful, and we see that when there is more understanding of elements there can be less grudge, and thus more opportunity for metta. Nina. op 03-08-2003 07:26 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > “It is another consciousness that rises, > another consciousness that ceases; > Like to a river’s (flowing) stream > that occurs in unbroken succession 23918 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 11:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Hi Nina, Beautiful quote wasn't it--with a grudge no understanding--with understanding, no grudge. Liberating in a mundane way, I think. patigha 1. In an ethical sense, it means: 'repugnance', grudge, resentment, anger, and is a synonym of vyápáda, 'ill-will' (s. nívarana) and dosa, 'hate' (s. múla). It is one of the proclivities (anusaya, q.v.). 2. '(Sense-) reaction'. Applied to five-sense cognition, p. occurs in the following contexts: (a) as patigha-saññá, 'perception of sense-reaction', said to be absent in the immaterial absorptions (s. jhána 5). Alternative renderings: resistance-perception, reflex-perception; (b) as patigha-samphassa, '(mental) impression caused by 5fold sensorial reaction' (D. 15); s. phassa; (c) as sappatigha-rúpa, 'reacting corporeality', and appatigha, 'not reacting', which is an Abhidhammic classification of corporeality, occurring in Dhs. 659, 1050. Sappatigha are called the physical sense-organs as reacting (or responding) to sense stimuli; and also the physical sense-objects as impinging (or making an impact) on the sense-organs. All other corporeality is appatigha, non-reacting and non-impinging. These 2 terms have been variously rendered as resistant and not, responding and not, with and without impact. And better than chanting hundreds of meaningless verses is one Dhamma-saying that on hearing brings peace. Dhp 102 mike ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Dear Sarah, There was for me a condition for aversion towards a particular person who misbehaved. Now this quote is helpful, and we see that when there is more understanding of elements there can be less grudge, and thus more opportunity for metta. Nina. op 03-08-2003 07:26 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > "It is another consciousness that rises, > another consciousness that ceases; > Like to a river's (flowing) stream > that occurs in unbroken succession 23919 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Dear Nina (Mike & All), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > There was for me a condition for aversion towards a particular person who misbehaved. Now this quote is helpful, and we see that when there is more understanding of elements there can be less grudge, and thus more opportunity for metta. > > “It is another consciousness that rises, > > another consciousness that ceases; > > Like to a river’s (flowing) stream > > that occurs in unbroken succession ..... S: I find the same with all these quotes reminding us that life just exists at this moment. All the stories, the dreams, the plans and ideas that seem so very real are just the fantasies, whilst this moment of consciousness arises and passes away. You reminded me of the first tape of discussion with K.Sujin that I listened to, which had such a dramatic effect on me at the time, when you wrote(to Kio): N: “We also stayed in Varanasi, in Hotel de Paris. When we were walking in the garden of that hotel, we heard a band with drums, and immediately we had an image of people marching and playing. A. Sujin explained that we build up stories on account of what we experience through the senses. Sound, hearing and thinking are ultimate realities, the stories we think of are concepts or ideas, different from ultimate realities. It is difficult to distinguish different realities, it is direct understanding, panna, that is able to do so. Panna cannot suddenly arise, it is gradually developed by studying, considering what we learn, discussing, asking questions. We may be thinking of ourselves and others, walking in the garden of Hotel de Paris, but if we die now, the story comes to an end. Actually, each citta that falls away is a moment of dying. With the citta that falls away, the story comes to an end.” S: When I returned to England, after living in the temple in Sri Lanka where I heard the tape for the first time, I’d listen to it and others over and over again. ‘Tor rueng’, I heard A.Sujin repeat the Thai, meaning 'following on the story'. ‘Tor rueng’, ‘tor rueng’.... we hear a sound and then there is the story of the band playing, the Hotel de Paris and the people sitting around in the garden. There’s just a moment of hearing and then thinking, following the story, usually with no awareness. Even as I listened to the words, I'd conjure up the picture of you all, sitting in the garden, discussing dhamma, with the band marching by in the background. Lobha sneaks in so quickly, even when we're listening to the dhamma. If we die now, the story comes to an end. In another post you referred to Vism X1, 121 where it refers to “arriving at wide open (conditions) in crowded (circumstances). As you mentioned, the footnote says: “This is an allusion to Mi, 179 etc ‘The process of existence in the round of rebirths, which is a very cramped place, is crowded by the defilements of craving and so on’(Pm 371)”. I followed the reference to Mi, 179. which refers to the ‘crowded and dusty’ household life, the ‘wide open’ life of one gone forth. We begin to understand the real meaning of ‘cramped’, ‘crowded’ and ‘dusty’. “Crowded by the defilements of craving and so on’. I’d like to repeat what you ou wrote some time ago about the deeper meaning of ‘bhikkhu’ (to Frank) because there are other threads on ‘solitude’ and living alone. ***** Nina: “First objects have to be seen as only elements, so that personality belief can be eradicated. This happens when the first stage of enlightenment is attained, and finally at the realization of arahatship all craving is left behind. All those who develop the eightfold Path are leading a life that is brahmacariyaa. In the Commentary to the satipa.t.thaanasutta (Ven Soma), <...> N: “In each sutta, be it the Migajalasutta, the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint, the Buddha speaks personally to us. He reminds us of our defilements at this moment. Remember, every sutta pertains to this moment. He exhorts us to develop understanding of "the all". Seeing is an experience, it is different from visible object and hardness which do not know anything. Everything can be the object of understanding, because whatever appears, it is only an element experienced through one of the six doors.” ****** S:As I think it’s relevant, I’d also like to quote from an earlier post I wrote on ‘Forest and Lone Dwelling’ in which I referred to the Thera Sutta (SN 11, 282): Sarah: “We often read in the suttas about groups of bhikkhus who gathered together, entered a village for alms together and so on. In the Thera Sutta, it seems a number of bhikkhus thought it was strange for Thera (his name) to live alone, go for alms alone, return alone, sit and walk alone and so they raised the issue with the Buddha. The Buddha summonsed Thera. Thera confirmed he lived and followed all these activities alone and also praised living alone. The Buddha didn’t disagree, but said (B.Bodhi transl., p721): "That is a way of dwelling alone, Elder, I do not deny this. But as to how dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail, listen to that and attend closely, I will speak." "Yes, venerable sir." "And how, Elder, is dwelling alone fulfilled in detail? Here, Elder, what lies in the past has been abandoned, what lies in the future has been relinquished, and desire and lust for present forms of individual existence has been thoroughly removed.* It is in such a way, Elder, that dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail." This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, the Teacher, further said this: "The wise one, all-conqueror, all-knower, Among all things unsullied, with all cast off, Liberated in the destruction of craving: I call that person ‘one who dwells alone.’ "** So there are the two meanings of ‘living alone'. For some by inclination or natural tendency (pakati or bokati in Thai)they will live alone in the first sense like Thera. However, we all have to learn to live alone without 'desire and lust' regardless of whether we're in the forest or the village, alone or with others. Of course, this is very similar to the Migajala Sutta which I like to quote and reflect on a lot. Only by understanding the sounds, odours, tactile objects, mental phenomena and other namas and rupas discussed can one’s partner -- craving -- be abandoned, allowing one to live alone: ***** ‘There are, Migajala, sounds cognizable by the ear..odours cognizable by the nose..tastes cognizable by the tongue..tactile objects cognizable by the body..mental phenomena cognizable by the mind that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. If a bhikkhu does not seek delight in them..he is called alone dweller. ‘Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and female lay follower, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner and he has abandoned it; therefore his is called a lone dweller." (SN, Bk of 6 Sense Bases.63, B.Bodhi trans) ***** From the footnotes to Thera Sutta (B.Bodhi trans): *Commentary "(Spk): "The past is said to be abandoned (pahina.m) by the abandoning of desire and lust for the five aggregates of the past; the future is relinquished (pa.tinissa.t.tha.m) by the relinquishig of desire and lust for the five aggregates of the future. **"(Spk): ‘All-conqueror’(sbbaabhibhu.m): one who abides having overcome all aggregates, sense bases, and elements, and the three kinds of existence. ‘Unsullied’(anupalitta.m, or "unstuck") among hose very things by the paste (lepa) of craving and views. "Liberated in the destruction of craving (ta.nhakkhaye vimutta.m): liberated in Nibbana, called the destruction of craving by way of the liberation that takes this as its object." “ ***** S: For those who don’t have a copy of Visuddhimagga, (and for those like myself who need lots of repeated reminders), let me finish this (long) post by re-quoting the lines Mike gave with the whole paragraph, including the apt simile of the chariot wheel, under ‘Recollections of Death’ Vism, V111, 39: “As to the shortness of the moment: in the ultimate sense the life-moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls (that is, touches the ground) only on one point of (the circumference of) its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased, according as it is said: ‘In a past conscious moment he did live, not he does live, not he will live. In a future conscious moment not he did live, not he does live, he will live. In the present conscious moment not he did live, he does live, not he will live. ‘ “Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow” ‘ (Nd.1,42) “This is how death should be recollected as to the shortness of the moment.” With metta, Sarah ====== 23920 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, conditions, kamma, vipaka Hello Howard, Mike and all, Thank you for your replies to my question. I found them very helpful, and will forward them to the person who asked the original question. (He doesn't have a home computer, or I would invite him to join dsg.) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" 23921 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 3:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Larry > Larry: "I agree and there is no real insight with the asssumption "I am the > knower or doer". But if you remember to look (sati) for a doer or knower > you might find there is nothing to find and no one to be happy about > that." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Fortunately that it is! You see, one can refine his/her misconcepts about it, and think " if I am not a doer, so I am a knower" or " I am a doer, not a knower", and further conceives fantasies like " there´s a hard way or an easy way to reach Nibbana", "here is wisdom and there is devotion", etc. From Sati to Samadhi and Panna the way is that it is. You can refine your own raptures... but egoic concepts are empty of meaning! Metta, Ícaro 23922 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four Bases of Power Hi Victor (Mike, Kom & All), S: You gave many useful quotes on the bases of power (iddhipaada)and I have no quibble with any of your comments either!! On the other hand, I think you managed to skilfully avoid answering my questions pertaining to what kind of desire is arising for most of us, most the time, in daily life -- and I think this was what the thread was all about -- but I’m always happy to follow diversions;-) --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, <...> V: > And what is the path of practice leading to the development of the > base of power? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right > resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, > right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of > practice leading to the development of the base of power. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/2d.html#64 > > This is how I see it: > Through developing the noble eightfold path, one develops the base > of power, which in turn further the the development of the noble > eightfold path. In fact, I see that the development of the four > bases of power and the development of the noble eightfold path go in > tandem: .... S: All very nicely put. I know you’re not keen on commentaries, but please humour me a little: Comy to Abhidhammathasangaha, Categories, 32 “Success (iddhi) is that by which the things beginning with resolve succeed (ijjhati)....;” CMA, B.Bodhi, Categories, guide to #26 “However, while those states (chanda, viriya, citta, viima’msa) become predominants (adhipati) on any occasion when they are instrumental in accomplishing a goal, they become iddhipaadas only when they are applied to achieving the goal of the Buddha’s teaching. The expression iddhipaada extends to both mundane and supramundane states.” ..... S: When there is ‘desire for the goal’ as you mentioned before, can this be referred to as iddhipaada I wonder? We read in the Visuddhimagga and other texts about the stages of insight (vipassanaa ~naa.nas). In the Comy to the Abhidhammatthasangaha which I have open, we read that one of these stages: ‘The knowledge of the desire for release is the knowledge that, being disenchanted, occurs by way of the desire for release from the formations.’ It may be that there’s plenty of desire for release and disenchantment, but this level of insight can only be attained by the very highly developed wisdom which is really detached from nama and rupa, having directly understood the nature of namas and rupas, the conditioned nature of these elements, the khandhas, directly realized the arising and falling away and so on. As Kom just wrote so clearly (imho): ..... K: “Vipassana-nana, or the insight knowledge, is the clear comprehension of the characteristics of realities. There are 16 levels, which are attainment levels, of clear comprehension starting with nama-rupa paricheta nana, or the separation of nama and rupa. What does insight knowledge cognitive of? The realities, the kandhas, the sense bases, and the dhatus, all realities (paramatha dhammas), and not the concepts (pannatti, or objects of thinking). How does Vipassana-nana come about? It comes from the development of panna starting from panna at the listening level, at the thinking level, and at the practice level.” ..... S: Already, Victor, you may have objections or a different understanding about what is to be known and how the ‘bases of power’ or eightfold path is to be developed. Kom continues: ..... K: “There are many difficulties in learning about Vipassana. Firstly, vipassana is a clear comprehension of REALITIES. If we consider why the Buddha's teaching is said to be irrefutable, we can begin to understand what realities are. For example, when two people see a woman, one says she is pretty, and the other says she isn't. This fact of prettiness is refutable. The Buddha's teaching isn't like that. Aversion has the characteristic of repulsion of its object. When aversion arises, only a fool (well, moha or ignorance) would deny / be unaware of this characteristic which is irrefutable. The teachings of anicca (impermanence), dukha (suffering), and anatta (non-self, uncontrollability) are like this as well: they are irrefutable and inherent to realities.” ..... S: I hope this doesn’t take us back to the computer discussion and whether it exists;-) Peter V was asking about the direct knowledge of various aspects of the Dhamma. We see that as insight develops, the truths are known more and more precisely and irrefutably as Kom explains: ..... K: “Second, vipassana is a CLEAR COMPREHENSION of realities. It is not thinking of realities. We may misunderstand our thinking of realities as vipassana-nana. For example, thinking that nothing is permanent is not the same as comprehending that nothing is permanent. Repeating to oneself about impermanence, or enumerating the things that we think are impermanent, is not vipassana-nana. .... S: Likewise, thinking about and having desire for release from suffering, desire for nibbana or disenchantment with life is not the same as iddhi-paada or muccitukamyataa ~naa.na (desire for deliverence). ..... K: “Third, one doesn't jump from knowing nothing about realities to an immediate, clear comprehension of anicca, dukha, and anatta, unless one has been accumulating for a long time. Panna progresses in stages (hence the 16 levels). It is impossible to have clear comprehension of anicca and dukkha without first the clear comprehension of nama and rupa.” ***** S: So is there any clear comprehension of nama and rupa at this moment? Usually not for most of us. No one denies that the four bases of power or the vipassana-nanas are wholesome. The question is: what kind of desire or understanding is arising at this moment? Mike wrote a couple of weeks ago at the start of this thread: ..... M: “I found this in CMA, Bhikkhu Bodhi's Guide to the Occasionals [Occasional Mental Factors]: "Desire (Chanda): Chanda here means desire to act (kattu-kaamataa) that is, to perform an action or achieve a result. This kind of desire must be distinguished from desire in the reprehensible sense, that is from lobha, greeed and raaga, lust. Whereas the latter terms are invariably wholesome, chanda is an ethically variable factor which, when conjoined with wholesome concomitants, can function as the virtuous desire to achieve a worthy goal. The characteristic of chanda is to act, its function is searching for an object, its manifestation is need for an object, and that same object is its proximate cause. It should be regarded as the stretching forth of the mind's hand towards the object." M: Assuming BB to be correct, since chanda is 'ethically variable' (can be wholesome or unwholesome), it seems to me that it must be unwholesome when its object is, for example, pleasant feeling or relief from unpleasant feeling (as each of these would be attachment to vedanaa which is unsatisfactory, impermanent and not-self), or when attended by self-view. It also seems to me that chanda not associated with desire for certain feelings or self-view is very rare (certainly for me). If so, it's important, I think, to carefully distinguish between wholesome chanda, unwholesome chanda and and attachment (especially with self-view)--difficult too, I think.” ***** Comments (and answers) very welcome;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Comments on my last post relating to your solitude theme are most welcome too;-) ================ 23923 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Mike! Mike: "When these things are remembered they are only remembered by sa~n~naa, I > think, when understood they are understood only by pa~n~naa, I think. > Corrections welcomed." -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bullseye, Mike! Since Sanna ( sa~n~~naa) has perception as basis ( as a matter of fact, Sanna IS perception), so such faculty of rememberance is endowed. Panna can be defined as a union of the 7th and 8th parts of the Atthangika Magga - the Octuple Noble Path. So, you can look at it as the end of a mental process that starts with Sila ( 1st, 2nd and 3rd parts of the Atthangika Magga), comes through Samadhi (4,5 and 6) and ends with Understanding or Panna. Corrections are welcome too!!! Metta, Ícaro > > mike 23924 From: vajramantra Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 5:45am Subject: Interesting Link Dear all, I thought I would share this great link with those who do not know it yet: http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/theravada-writings.htm All the best, Peter 23925 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Icaro Hello, and welcome. Thanks for coming in on this thread ;-)) --- icaro franca wrote: > ... > Correct. Taking on the Pali Dictionary of the Pali > Text Society for "Samatha" we get "calm, quietude of > heart" and "yanika who makes quietude his vehicle, > devoted to quietude, a kind of Arahant". In English, > "Tranquility" fits well as meaning. Thanks for the quote from PED. I think the point to remember is that samatha is the calm of kusala, not the calm of concentration (there is nothing about concentration in and of itself that connotes kusala-ness). Thanks for your many contributions of late. Jon 23926 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 6:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Karma and reincarnation Peter V I agree pretty much with what you say here, but would only add that we also need to allow for the possibility that proof by direct experience is not easily come by, and may in fact be available only to those of highly developed understanding of the appropriate kind (whatever that may be). Jon --- vajramantra wrote: ... > That is what makes most people reject every kind of spiritual > process. They say, "If there is God, why does he allow all these > injustices to happen?" or "If there is a law of karma, why do we > see > good people suffer and bad people enjoy life?". It is easy to > say, "Oh, it is karma" when someone else's house is burning, but > when > we suffer, it is a lot more difficult to ease ourselves with > theories... Also, when we see starving children on TV, saying > that "They must have been very bad guys in their previous lives"... > I > don't know... As you said, unless I attain the capacity to directly > percieve how karma works, I cannot but believe... Otherwise the > whole existence would be a meaningless chaos ruled by coincidence. 23927 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Victor You make a good point here. The five aggregates are dukkha, and so are all aspects of this existence (such as birth, old age, sickness etc). At the same time, some of those five aggregates and some aspects of this existence are conducive to or form part of the path of release from this round of existence. These include the (mundane) path factors and the kusala that is solitude. Although it may seem at first sight that there's a conflict here, in fact if things were not this way (i.e., certain dhammas that are suffering are also part of the path to liberation) there would be no opportunity for escape from this existence. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Nori, > > This is how I understand it: > > Solitude is dukkha and so is the absence of love, company and > friendship. > > The five clinging-aggregates encompass all conditioned phenomena, > things, events, situations, activities including birth, aging, > death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair, association > with the unbeloved, separation from the loved, not getting > what is wanted, solitude, and the absence of love, company and > friendship. > > However, solitude/living alone is extolled and/or encouraged in > several places in the discourses.* So there seems to be a > conflict: > if solitude is dukkha, then why is it extolled and/or encouraged? > > Because as a way of practice, it is conducive to the cessation of > dukkha. 23928 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Icaro's rum and accumulations. Dear Icaro, op 03-08-2003 22:08 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Right on point! > Kamma?s accumulations have a definite start line. > They bond us and grow.. N: Accumulations is a difficult subject and we recently had posts about it. Kusala kamma and akusala kamma is accumulated from citta to citta, from the past to the present and thus former kamma can produce result later on, even after countless lives. It is the force of kamma which produces result: vipaka. Inclinations that are kusala or akusala are also accumulated and condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta today: this is another type of condition, natural strong dependence condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya) different from kamma-condiiton that produces vipaka. So many types of condition at work each moment. I: and my own efforts on trying to read > and understand Pali really raised up my mind to a > better viewpoint about the ultimate teachings of > Buddha. N: Is the pali yahoo list something for you? We have almost daily exercises which are not heavy, but help to improve one's reading. Nina. 23929 From: suzakico Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 10:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! -1 I will respond based on my own experience as obvious as it may be: > Attachment to sense objects can be temporarily subdued by jhana, but jhanas > do not last and after the jhanacittas have fallen away it arises again. > When wrong view, such as taking realities for self and mine is still there, > there is no way to eradicate attachment. I understand this clearly. > At first we may not realize our wrong view, we may not realize that it is > very harmful. It is essential to begin to see that we tend to take our > experiences and our body for self and mine. When we consider attachment, > aversion, all realities, as very important, as mine and self, we are > completely involved with my lobha, my dosa. Whereas, when we learn to see > akusala as mere elements we will take them less personal, at least on the > level of theoretical understanding. We learn that they are conditioned, > beyond control. I see akusala as element. I simply observe when it arises. I learned to be patient to practice the detached observation. I am often unaffected. But sometimes, it takes time. In any case, the clinging, etc. eventually dissolves. I am very certain on this process. They arise when there are the right conditions for them, but > we can learn to have more understanding of them. The development of this > kind of understanding is a long process, and only later on it can be > directly understood that lobha and dosa arise just for a moment and then > fall away immediately, thus, that they are impermanent. My learning/practice is detached observation. It is as if the sankara loses its power and fade away. This, I take it as the work of samadhi-panna, the nature's way. Of course, there is no self involved in it. So, when practicing, I do not see the notion of self involved at all. Although I can reflect back and tie self as a part of the problem, I do not usually reflect like this since the akusala is already gone. What falls away > immediately, can that be possessed by a self, can it be mine? Yes, I can see it tied to self in some way or the other, if I reflect back. But I would like to call it as a seeking mind (of course this is tied to self) that causes the problem. But in the process of detached observation, I do not bring in the notion of self. In fact, I know I should not, since if I do, it obscures the clarity of seeing what is going on. I do not need any thoughts including the notion of self to bring out the insight/panna. > The sotapanna is without wrong view, but he still has lobha and dosa. > However, he does not take them for self. I can relate to this as mentioned above. > Lobha and dosa cannot condition > very bad deeds anymore which could produce as results an unhappy rebirth. I can relate to "lobha and dosa cannot condition...bad deeds." This is because, they are dissolved when they arise (of course, one at a time, by detached observation) so there is nothing to carry further. > When we reflect on this, it will be clearer that wrong view is to be > eradicated first. It can also remind us not to delay the development of > understanding now, of whatever reality appears, be it rupa, or any kind of > nama, akusala included. This is very urgent. Yes, when we reflect. Yes, we need to deal with the situation one at a time so that the problem is dissolved – not just on surface but deeper sankhara as much as possible. Since I do not know how deep the sankhara is, therefore, I practice sitting meditation few times a day to eliminate the deeper sankhara. So, what does this mean in relation to my original question. Is the difference just semantics? In other words, isn't "putting self first" in the actual practice an unnecessary notion to carry? It appears that it is irrelevant to say which comes first pragmatically speaking - unless this is for the intellectual understanding. As for me, I feel this is confusing and detract from the task at hand which is address the problem of suffering. (Come to think about it, I think all Abhidhamma knowledge, e.g., this citta that citta, etc., is unnecessary in "actual" practice of detached observation as found in the discussion of "self" I just went through. It may help for reflection to confirm the point.) In the original post, you said: "Gradually you learn that cittas are conditioned, conditioned by past experiences, by accumulated inclinations. You experience praise and blame, gain and loss, and these do not stay, they are beyond control. They are conditioned realities. You may come to know that the understanding of different moments is helpful for you personally, in daily life. The aim of learning more about different realities is detachment. First detachment from the idea of self, and later on from all objects (for the arahat). " Here, I feel that the last sentence is unnecessary because there is only one practice, i.e., detached observation of whatever is happening all around and inside us (so to speak) with honed senses/awareness – without the notion of any disturbing thoughts, including the thoughts of self or even the knowledge of Abhidhamma. Since at that moment, no knowledge will help and that we have to let go totally, and just be empty. In fact, the notion of sotopanna, etc. can be binding as well. Knowledge can be helpful, but looking from the other way, it can be quite a burden. Kio 23930 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 0:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Icaro's rum and accumulations. Dear Nina > N: Is the pali yahoo list something for you? We have > almost daily exercises > which are not heavy, but help to improve one's > reading. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------- GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hartelijk Danke ! Thanks Nina! I didn´t know about this Yahoo´s Pali Group! I´m coming over there on the double! Tot Straks Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23931 From: bodhi2500 Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 4:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Jon,Victor,All Would this statement be in line with the Tipitaka/Commentries? "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are dukkha in the sense of being conditioned, But they (Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) are not included within the Noble Truth of Dukkha" ? Thanks Steve --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > You make a good point here. > > The five aggregates are dukkha, and so are all aspects of this > existence (such as birth, old age, sickness etc). > > At the same time, some of those five aggregates and some aspects of > this existence are conducive to or form part of the path of release > from this round of existence. These include the (mundane) path > factors and the kusala that is solitude. > > Although it may seem at first sight that there's a conflict here, in > fact if things were not this way (i.e., certain dhammas that are > suffering are also part of the path to liberation) there would be no > opportunity for escape from this existence. > > Jon > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Nori, > > The five clinging-aggregates encompass all conditioned phenomena, > > things, events, situations, activities including birth, aging, > > death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair, association > > with the unbeloved, separation from the loved, not getting > > what is wanted, solitude, and the absence of love, company and > > friendship. 23932 From: Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 5:13pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 3 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 3. In what sense is it understanding? It is understanding (pa~n~naa) in the sense of act of understanding (pajaanana). What is this act of understanding? It is knowing (jaanana) in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving (sa~njaanana) and cognizing (vijaanana). For though the state of knowing (jaanana-bhaava) is equally present in perception (sa~n~naa), in consciousness (vi~n~naa.na), and in understanding (pa~n~naa), nevertheless perception is only the mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or 'yellow'; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristics as impermanent, painful, and not-self. Consciousness knows the object as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. 23933 From: Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 5:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 3 (Jim & Nina) Hi all, We have discussed this paragraph rather extensively, particularly concerning the word "endeavour". I think the final conclusion was that "endeavour" referred to Right Effort, but I believe a commentary on this word added another element. Maybe Jim could clarify this point. I don't remember if we discussed "penetration" but I would like to know more about it. The main point of this paragraph seems to be that panna both penetrates the general characteristics (impermanence, suffering, not self) and leads "by endeavour" to a path moment of realization. Nina, how do you see it? Larry ------------------------- "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 3. In what sense is it understanding? It is understanding (pa~n~naa) in the sense of act of understanding (pajaanana). What is this act of understanding? It is knowing (jaanana) in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving (sa~njaanana) and cognizing (vijaanana). For though the state of knowing (jaanana-bhaava) is equally present in perception (sa~n~naa), in consciousness (vi~n~naa.na), and in understanding (pa~n~naa), nevertheless perception is only the mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or 'yellow'; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristics as impermanent, painful, and not-self. Consciousness knows the object as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. 23934 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 6:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Larry! > Larry: "Would this statement be in line > with the > Tipitaka/Commentries? > > "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are dukkha in the > sense of being > conditioned, But they (Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) > are not included > within the Noble Truth of Dukkha" ?" Well... yes. Lokuttara Cuttas are conditioned. Looking at my own list of the Lokuttara Cittani: 8 Supramundane Consciousness - Lokuttara Cittani - 8 (Javanas) 4 Moral Supramundane Consciousness - Lokuttara Kusala Cittani 1. Sotapatti Path-consciousness. Sotapattimaggacittam. 2. Sakadagami Path-consciousness. Sakadagamimaggacittam. 3. Anagami Path-consciousness. Anagamimaggacittam. 4. Arahatta Path-consciousness. Arahattamaggacittam. These are the four type of Supramundane Moral Consciousness. 4 Resultant Supramundane Consciousness - Lokuttara Vipaka Cittani 1. Sotapatti Fruit-consciousness. Sotapattiphalacittam. 2. Sakadagami Fruit-consciousness. Sakadagamiphalacittam. 3. Anagami Fruit-consciousness. Anagamiphalacittam. 4. Arahatta Fruit-consciousness. Arahattaphalacittam. These are the four type of Supramundane Resultant Consciousness. Note that the Lokuttara Citta(ni) exists only at the spheres of formless resultant and moral consciousness, and not at the Functional formless sphere of consciousness (Path + Fruit-consciousness). And all conditiones states of conscience are Dukkha. Corrections are welcome. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23935 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 6:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Steve The position according to CMA is as follows: ------------------------ Ch. VII Compendium of Categories #40 Summary … Mental states associated with the paths and the fruits are excluded from the four truths. Guide to #40 'Mental states associated with the paths': Apart from the 8 cetasikas corresponding to the 8 path factors, the other constituents of the supramundane path consciousness -- the citta itself and the associated cetasikas -- are not strictly speaking part of the eightfold path, and thus are not comprehended by the Four Noble Truths. The four fruits as well are excluded from the framework of the Four Noble Truths. -------------------------- On this basis the second limb of the statement you have quoted would have to be modified to exclude those cetasikas that constitute the 8 path factors. I don't know of any other sources on this point. Jon --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi Jon,Victor,All > Would this statement be in line with the > Tipitaka/Commentries? > > "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are dukkha in the sense of being > conditioned, But they (Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) are not included > within the Noble Truth of Dukkha" ? > > Thanks > Steve 23936 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 7:33pm Subject: Re: Interesting Link Dear Peter, Thanks for the link to our old friend Anders' website. I see he has done quite a bit of work on it in the past year or so. A lot more interesting material (and much less uninteresting material) than earlier. Exellent and diverse readings. Dan > Dear all, > > I thought I would share this great link with those who do not know it > yet: > > http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/theravada-writings.htm > > > All the best, > > Peter 23937 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Mike, excellent reminder that just remembering is not enough. Understanding should be developed, but that goes slowly. Before we, or rather panna, realizes: no doer, there is a long, long way to go. Nina. op 04-08-2003 05:48 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > > When these things are remembered they are only remembered by sa~n~naa, I > think, when understood they are understood only by pa~n~naa, I think. 23938 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Dear Sarah, thank you very much. op 04-08-2003 10:27 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, >> There was for me a condition for aversion towards a particular person > who misbehaved. Now this quote is helpful, and we see that when there is > more understanding of elements there can be less grudge, and thus more > opportunity for metta. N: But Sarah, the aversion came back!! Thus we see that we need Mike's reminder: we may well remember the dhamma, by sanna, but panna, where is it? It is lacking. So then aversion is a fit object of understanding, but we are so forgetful. S: You reminded me of the first tape of discussion with K.Sujin that I > listened to, which had such a dramatic effect on me at the time, when you > wrote(to Kio): > N: “We also stayed in Varanasi, in Hotel de Paris. walking in the > garden of Hotel de Paris, but if we die now, the story comes to an end. > Actually, each citta that falls away is a moment of dying. With the citta > that falls away, the story comes to an end. > > > Even as I listened to the words, I'd conjure up the picture of you all, > sitting in the garden, discussing dhamma, with the band marching by in the > background. N: It was Jon who noted the sound of the band. Also Solly was there, and I wrote to him today to invite him here. S: > *Commentary "(Spk): "The past is said to be abandoned (pahina.m) by the > abandoning of desire and lust for the five aggregates of the past; the > future is relinquished (pa.tinissa.t.tha.m) by the relinquishig of desire > and lust for the five aggregates of the future. N: Thank you for the footnotes with comy. Nina. 23939 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 9:07pm Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 5 B ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:52:23 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 5 B Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 5 B tatraayasmaa raahulo bhagavato pi.t.thito pi.t.thito gacchantova paadatalato yaava upari kesantaa tathaagata.m aalokesi. There the venerable Rahula who walked behind the Exalted One looked at the ³Thus-gone² from the soles of his feet up to the tips of his hairs. so bhagavato buddhavesavilaasa.m disvaa And when he saw the graceful appearance of a Buddha in the Exalted One, he thought: ``sobhati bhagavaa dvatti.msamahaapurisalakkha.navicittasariiro ³The Exalted One is beautiful, his body adorned with the thirtytwo characteristics of a Great Man, byaamappabhaaparikkhittataaya vippaki.n.nasuva.n.nacu.n.namajjhagato viya, Since he is surrounded by his aura of one fathom, he is as it were going in the middle of gold dust, scattered all around him, vijjulataaparikkhitto kanakapabbato viya, He is like a golden mountain encircled by a flash of lightning yantasuttasamaaka.d.dhitaratanavicitta.m suva.n.naagghika.m viya, He is like a golden festoon decorated with jewels that is pulled along by a mechanical contrivance, rattapa.msukuulaciivarapa.ticchannopi rattakambalaparikkhittakanakapabbato viya, Although he is clothed in a saffron rag-robe, he is like a golden mountain covered by a shimmering woollen cloth, pavaa.lalataapa.tima.n.dita.m suva.n.naagghika.m viya , He is like a golden festoonwork ornamented with coral creepers, ciinapi.t.thacu.n.napuujita.m suva.n.nacetiya.m viya, He is like a golden pagoda which is venerated by (the application of) powder made from red lead, laakhaarasaanulitto kanakayuupo viya, He is like a golden sacrificial post covered with lac colouring, rattavalaahakantarato ta"nkha.nabbhuggatapu.n.nacando viya, He is like the full moon that emerges at that moment in between misty clouds. aho samati.msapaaramitaanubhaavasajjitassa attabhaavassa siriisampattii''ti cintesi. O, what splendour of his body, adorned with the majesty of the thirty perfections *.² English: There the venerable Rahula who walked behind the Exalted One looked at the ³Thus-gone² from the soles of his feet up to the tips of his hairs. And when he saw the graceful Buddha appearance in the Exalted One, he thought: ³The Exalted One is beautiful, his body adorned with the thirtytwo characteristics, Since he is surrounded by his aura of one fathom, he is as it were going in the middle of gold dust, scattered all around him, He is like a golden mountain encircled by a flash of lightning He is like a golden festoon decorated with jewels that is pulled along by a mechanical contrivance. Although he is clothed in a saffron rag-robe, he is like a golden mountain covered by a shimmering woollen cloth, He is like a golden festoonwork ornamented with coral creepers, He is like a golden pagoda which is venerated by (the application of) powder made from red lead, He is like a golden sacrificial post covered with lac colouring, He is like the full moon that emerges at that moment in between misty clouds. O, what splendour of his body, adorned with the majesty of the thirty perfections *.² * The Buddha accumulated in his lives as a Bodhisatta ten perfections (generosity, morality, etc.), which can be distinguished as: basic, medium and ultimate, and thus they can be counted as thirty perfections. Nina. 23941 From: bodhi2500 Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 10:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Jon, All wrote: > Steve > > The position according to CMA is as follows: > > ------------------------ > Ch. VII Compendium of Categories > #40 Summary > … > Mental states associated with the paths and the fruits are excluded > from the four truths. > > Guide to #40 > 'Mental states associated with the paths': Apart from the 8 > cetasikas corresponding to the 8 path factors, the other constituents > of the supramundane path consciousness -- the citta itself and the > associated cetasikas -- are not strictly speaking part of the > eightfold path, and thus are not comprehended by the Four Noble > Truths. The four fruits as well are excluded from the framework of > the Four Noble Truths. > -------------------------- > > On this basis the second limb of the statement you have quoted would > have to be modified to exclude those cetasikas that constitute the 8 > path factors. > > I don't know of any other sources on this point. > > Jon > Would the 8 Lokuttara path factor cetasikas be included within the Noble Truth of Dukkha? I can see how they would be included in the 4 Truths, under the Noble Path, but being Lokuttara and not subject to clinging, wouldnt that make them excluded from the Noble Truth of Dukkha? Steve > --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi Jon,Victor,All > > Would this statement be in line with the > > Tipitaka/Commentries? > > > > "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are dukkha in the sense of being > > conditioned, But they (Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) are not included > > within the Noble Truth of Dukkha" ? > > > > Thanks > > Steve 23942 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 10:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Steve, This is how I see it: The first statement "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are dukkha in the sense of being conditioned." is in line with the Buddha's teaching, is in line with the noble truth of dukkha. Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas as clinging-aggregates are dukkha. I am not sure what the second statement But they (Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) are not included within the Noble Truth of Dukkha" means. Clarification would be helpful. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi Jon,Victor,All > Would this statement be in line with the > Tipitaka/Commentries? > > "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are dukkha in the sense of being > conditioned, But they (Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) are not included > within the Noble Truth of Dukkha" ? > > Thanks > Steve 23943 From: bodhi2500 Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 10:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Victor, All --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Steve, > > This is how I see it: > > The first statement > > "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are dukkha in the sense of being > conditioned." > > is in line with the Buddha's teaching, is in line with the noble > truth of dukkha. Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas as clinging-aggregates > are dukkha. My understanding is that Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are not "clinging-aggregates". Being Lokuttara they are free from clinging and cannot be objects of clinging. > > I am not sure what the second statement > > But they (Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) are not included within the > Noble Truth of Dukkha" > > means. Clarification would be helpful. > > Peace, > Victor Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas not being "clinging-aggregates", are they included within the Noble Truth of Dukkha? Steve 23944 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! I'm Gene Sokol Hi Gene, I was also very glad to read your introductory note and would also like to belatedly welcome you to DSG. --- g_sokol wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends > > My name is Gene Sokol. I've been interested in Buddhism ever since I > took a course in it and decided to major in religion at the > University of Georgia back in the '80's. I studied the major > religions, but Buddhism impressed me the most with its depth of study > in & about the human mind. .... This is what interested me and still interests me a lot as well. I had majored in psychology but was only too aware of its limitations in this regard. When it comes to Buddhism and the Abhidhamma in particular, I find no limitations at all in the ‘depth and study in about the human mind’. .... > > I'm thankful to have stumbled upon this group and look forward to > learning and sharing with all involved. .... I’m glad you stumbled here too and we all look forward to your sharing of learning too. .... > > The Dhamma is of great interest to me because I want to understand > more fully the workings of the mind & the causation/cessation of > thought-moments. .... You’re in the right place I think;-) Please note that all posts are backed up at escribe which has a useful search function for topic, author, thread: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ There is a simple Pali glossary at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms Some posts on particular topics are saved here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah ======= 23945 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inroduction of myself to the 'Dhamma Study Group' Hi Nori, I enjoyed your intro very much;-)Thanks so much. I’ve been meaning to respond - --- norakat147 wrote: > I live in New York City. Home of vanity, the biggest Ego's, > uncontrolled sensual pleasures and desire; AKA massive suffering; > Home of angry faces and rude attitudes ... Babylon. > > Rarely do I meet any good people here, although there are some. .... Well, we meet a few good ones, like Howard, here on DSG. Maybe they’re all hiding on Buddhist websites;-) I’d really like to visit NY one day.... .... > I still don't know what I'm doing here. Attachment to family I guess. > > I came across Buddhism a few years ago due to both 'seeking the > ultimate truth of existence' (triggered by entheogens) and likewise > due to extreme suffering and an unfulfilling life. ...Since then my > suffering has been greatly reduced, although I still feel much. (...I > feel like I'm at a AA meeting) ..... At least you have a sense of humour with it all;-) Hope the discussions here are of assistance - your contributions and special style will be a great asset to the list. ..... > Some site named "Mountain Man Graphics" in australia had some > passages from Paul Carus's - Gospel of Buddha, on the internet. > > I read it and said "wow this actually makes sense, ...and actually > sounds like the truth" unlike many other long winded religious and > philosophical BALONEY I have read. And so, this eventually led me to > the source - The Tipitaka, the oldest texts of Gotama, Buddha. > > My first book being the 'Dhammapada' (Oxford-sacred books of the > east). Ever since, I have been a fan of Gotama (he's my hero). ..... So we have to thank “Mountain Man Graphics” for your presence;-) .... > I also read other theological and philosophical works and have faith > in nothing I cannot verify and experience myself. > > I can't express how happy I am to have found a Cyber-Sangha with kind > people who also seek the same, since I have not a single friend or > family member who even has an inkling of interest in it (i.e. The > ultimate truth, happiness, dhamma). > > I hope to have many intriguing future conversations and realizations. .... You’ve made a great start and I’m glad you’ve joined this Cyber-Sangha or family. Do start or chip in on any conversations and share any of your helpful discussions with Mike too;-) Metta, Sarah. ====== 23946 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] My realization on Compassion; How to love those who hate you Hi Nori, Me again! --- norakat147 wrote: > hi all, > > I'm the one who posted the "If there is Kamma, then why compassion?" > post. > > I have been contemplating this for a long, long time; looking for a > solid foundation on sound reasoning. ..... Thanks for posting the sutta: > Kakacupama Sutta > The Simile of the Saw .....and for your comments and poem!! > I thought, man, Gautama must be mad! > > How are we to be sympathetic to those who show such extreme > intentional hate toward us with no regard ??? > > How are we to show them good will and no hate/enmity ??? <.....snip> > So anyway, today I went hiking in the mountains near me, > contemplating this issue and finally I have the realization I needed; > a solid, sound line of reasoning. > > I'd like to share it with everyone; > > > This is: > > My realization on Love and Hate: > > Among the things I hate, are those who hate, > yet I hate (those who hate). > > Those who hate are born from hate, > yet I still hate (those who hate). > > What I love, is those who love, > yet I do not always love. > > Those who love are born of love, > yet I do not always love. > > ---- > Pretty hypocritical of me to have enmity toward those who hate; to > those who cause extreme suffering to me and others. > Hope it doesn't sound corny ...was profound for me. ..... It didn’t sound corny at all - it sounds as though you’ve been having some helpful reflections, perhaps also prompted by all the great responses you got here to your original questions. Your poem and reflections also reminded me of the conversation King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika had together and with the Buddha. I’ve repeated it a few times here, but hopefully you haven’t read all the old posts yet;-) In brief, King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika concluded that indeed there was no one dearer in the world than themselves, the Buddha spoke these lines in Udana, 5-1, ‘Dear’(Masefield trans): ‘Having explored all quarters with the mind, one would simply not attain that dearer than the self in any place; thus is the self dear separately to others - therefore one desiring self should not harm another.’ The commentary adds: ‘.....One would simply not attain that dearer than the self in any place (n’ev’ajjhagaapiyataram attanaa kvaci): whatever man, seeking out with every endeavour someone else (more) excessively dear than the self, would neither attain nor behold (such) in any place, anywhere in the (ten) quarters.Thus is the self dear separately to others (evam piyo puthu attaa paresa.m): thus is the self alone dear separately, severally, to this and that being, by way of the non-discovery of anyone dearer than the self. Therefore one desiring self should not harm another (tasmaa na hi.mse param attakaama): since each being holds the self dear in that way, is one desiring happiness for that self, one for whom dukkha is repulsive, therefore one desiring self, in wanting well-being and happiness for that self, should not harm, should not kill, should not even antagonise with the hand....and so on, another being, upwards from and including even a mere ant or (other) samll insect. For when dukkha is caused by oneself to some other, that (dukkha) is, after an interval of time, observed in one’s (own) self, as though it were passing over therefrom. For this is the law of karma.’ ..... Regardless of the deeds another performs or the seemingly ‘deserved’ or ‘undeserved’ suffering experienced, he or she wishes for happiness and is lost in samsara just like us. Look forward to more of your reflections. Metta, Sarah ====== 23947 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Interesting Link dear Dan D: Dan D: "Thanks for the link to our old friend Anders' > website. I see he has > done quite a bit of work on it in the past year or > so. A lot more > interesting material (and much less uninteresting > material) than > earlier. Exellent and diverse readings." ------------------------------------------------------ A very good one! In my opinion, the best Layperson-oriented Theravada site on web! The beginner on buddhism Doctrine will find some good subjects over there. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23948 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] glass with rum. Hi Icaro and Nina, Yes I like Icaro’s combination of serious abhidhamma and zany humour;-) Nice photos in the album and I’m hoping you’ll start a trend amongst other newbies here... --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Icaro, you make me laugh. A. Sujin would never say: don't drink > white > rum. Follow your accumulations, but at the same time, a moment of > understanding can slip in. .... Anyway Icaro, it sounds like you’re no longer ‘defiling the path’ with White Rum and hopefully we’re giving you enough distractions here. .... >You have to know your accumulations, just as > you > are. Realities that are kusala, akusala. pleasant or unpleasant, they > all > have to be known in the end. They are all dhammas, realities without a > self > or soul, that is the main point. > I do not go to webs and did not see your photo, but I see your writings, > the > best image of a person. Photo is only visible object, that is all. .... I laughed again - Nina has no ‘accumulations’ to look at the photos -- maybe Lodevick has?? -- and I do too;-) Yes, we have to live naturally -- not imitate others -- and get to know al these different dhammas, whatever our present lifestyle. Thanks also, Icaro, for a couple of lists and comments you’ve added to other posts of mine. I think you may be picking up my bad habit of getting names mixed up as I noticed you were addressing Steve as Larry today;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 23949 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi bodhi2500! Jon: "Mental states associated with the paths and the > fruits are excluded > > from the four truths." ------------------------------------------------------ This includes the four Resultant Supramundane Consciousness - Lokuttara Vipaka Cittani,that is defined as a kind of fruit-consciousness. ------------------------------------------------------ Steve: "Would the 8 Lokuttara path factor cetasikas be > included within the > Noble Truth of Dukkha?" ----------------------------------------------------- As we´ve seem, by definition, no. But since all these states are Dukkha, one can deal with this at the way prescribed by Buddha at the First Noble Truth. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23950 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 3:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] glass with rum. Dear Sarah Sarah: "Yes I like Icaro’s combination of serious abhidhamma > and zany humour;-) > Nice photos in the album and I’m hoping you’ll start > a trend amongst other > newbies here..." ------------------------------------------------------ Oh well... I will try to get better photos of mine, but you see: at these Star Trek Meetings I really indulge myself with such excesses... ------------------------------------------------------ Sarah: "I laughed again - Nina has no ‘accumulations’ to > look at the photos -- > maybe Lodevick has?? -- and I do too;-) > Yes, we have to live naturally -- not imitate others > -- and get to know al > these different dhammas, whatever our present > lifestyle." ----------------------------------------------------- If you get some accumulations only to look at a so ugly chap as me, think that since all in this world is impermanence, such Kamma births, grows, fades and finally dissapears... as my alcoholic headaches!!!! ---------------------------------------------------- > Sarah: "Thanks also, Icaro, for a couple of lists and > comments you’ve added to > other posts of mine." ----------------------------------------------------- I am really intending to post at lenght some of my Abhidhamma´s notes - not so brilliant as Rob´s!!! - for all people here... I only must to put it all in a good and proper order, not mixing up Arupajhanas with the summary of feelings and so on. ---------------------------------------------------- Sarah: "I think you may be picking up > my bad habit of getting > names mixed up as I noticed you were addressing > Steve as Larry today;-) ---------------------------------------------------- Oh well... that´s happen! I hope to quite off all these drawbacks before reaching Nibbana! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23951 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Icaro's rum and accumulations. Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Icaro's rum and accumulations. > Inclinations that are kusala or akusala are also accumulated and > condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta today: this is > another type of condition, natural strong dependence condition > (pakatupanissaya paccaya) Is this condition synonymous with 'anusaya*'? Is this the sense in which Khun Sujin uses 'accumulations'? Sorry if we've been over this before. Thanks, mike *anusaya=proclivity; a dormant disposition Buddhadhatta's Concise Pali-English Dictionary 23952 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Icaro's rum and accumulations. Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Icaro's rum and accumulations. > Inclinations that are kusala or akusala are also accumulated and > condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta today: this is > another type of condition, natural strong dependence condition > (pakatupanissaya paccaya) Is this condition synonymous with 'anusaya*'? Is this the sense in which Khun Sujin uses 'accumulations'? Sorry if we've been over this before. Thanks, mike *anusaya=proclivity; a dormant disposition Buddhadhatta's Concise Pali-English Dictionary 23953 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Steve Thanks for drawing to my attention the fact that the statement in question relates specifically to the first Noble Truth, which I had overlooked. Sorry for any confusion. As far as I understand, yes, the 8 lokuttara path factor cetasikas cannot be the object of clinging and so do not fall within the five aggregates of clinging that constitute the first Noble Truth. But I don't know of any textual reference for this. Jon --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi Jon, All > Would the 8 Lokuttara path factor cetasikas be included within the > Noble Truth of Dukkha? I can see how they would be included in the > 4 Truths, under the Noble Path, but being Lokuttara and not subject > to > clinging, wouldnt that make them excluded from the Noble Truth of > Dukkha? > > Steve 23954 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 7:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Steve, Then we understand differently. As I see it, whatever cittas/cetasikas, consciousnesses, hearts, wills, intentions, minds, mind states, however refined and sublime, are clinging-aggregates. They are dukkha. "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas" as "supramundane minds/mind states" might be an indication or sign of the cessation of dukkha. However, they themselves are clinging-aggregates, dukkha, not the cessation of dukkha. So in that sense, yes, they are included in the noble truth of dukkha. That is how I see it. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi Victor, All > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > > > This is how I see it: > > > > The first statement > > > > "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are dukkha in the sense of being > > conditioned." > > > > is in line with the Buddha's teaching, is in line with the noble > > truth of dukkha. Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas as clinging- aggregates > > are dukkha. > > My understanding is that Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are > not "clinging-aggregates". Being Lokuttara they are free from > clinging and cannot be objects of clinging. > > > > > I am not sure what the second statement > > > > But they (Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) are not included within the > > Noble Truth of Dukkha" > > > > means. Clarification would be helpful. > > > > Peace, > > Victor > > Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas not being "clinging-aggregates", are they > included within the Noble Truth of Dukkha? > > Steve 23955 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 8:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Jon, I was just checking with the Abhidhammatthasangaha-vibhavini-tika on your quotes below and saw something interesting. Note that "strictly speaking" refers to 'nippariyaayato', but the tika also has something to say from the point of view of 'pariyaayato' (in a roundabout way of speaking) that puts a~n~naataavindriya (arahattaphala?) in with the truth of the path and the remaining supramundane paths and fruits in with the truth of suffering (sa"nkhaaradukkhasaama~n~nena). You should be able to read this in your new tika translation which I don't have yet. Thanks for your earlier response regarding the Dhammasangani passage on the lokuttaracittas which I will study further when I get the chance and get back to you later if there's anything more me to add. I've been rather busy lately with so much to study. Best wishes, Jim > Steve > > The position according to CMA is as follows: > > ------------------------ > Ch. VII Compendium of Categories > #40 Summary > . > Mental states associated with the paths and the fruits are excluded > from the four truths. > > Guide to #40 > 'Mental states associated with the paths': Apart from the 8 > cetasikas corresponding to the 8 path factors, the other constituents > of the supramundane path consciousness -- the citta itself and the > associated cetasikas -- are not strictly speaking part of the > eightfold path, and thus are not comprehended by the Four Noble > Truths. The four fruits as well are excluded from the framework of > the Four Noble Truths. > -------------------------- > > On this basis the second limb of the statement you have quoted would > have to be modified to exclude those cetasikas that constitute the 8 > path factors. > > I don't know of any other sources on this point. > > Jon 23956 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 9:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four Bases of Power Hi Sarah, Thank you for the reply. Regarding your question: When there is `desire for the goal' as you mentioned before, can this be referred to as iddhipaada I wonder? I would think that the "desire for the goal"/"desire to realize the goal", where goal being the cessation of dukkha, _pertains_ to the base of power. I would not say it is _referred_ to as the base of power. In fact, as Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote: Each of these four bases has three component parts: the "fabrications of exertion" (which the texts equate with the four right exertions), concentration, and the mental quality -- desire, persistence, intent, or discrimination -- on which the concentration is based. * A base of power would not be one without "fabrication of exertion", concentration, and the mental quality -- desire, persistence, intent, or discrimination. Regarding your question: what kind of desire or understanding is arising at this moment? I would not want to speak for others. And I would think that it is more important for me to apply the "fabrications of exertion"/four right exertions with regard to whatever skillful/wholesome and unskillful/unwholesome qualities that has or hasn't arisen. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor * http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/2d.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor (Mike, Kom & All), [snip] > S: When there is `desire for the goal' as you mentioned before, can this > be referred to as iddhipaada I wonder? We read in the > .... [snip] > S: Likewise, thinking about and having desire for release from suffering, > desire for nibbana or disenchantment with life is not the same as > iddhi-paada or muccitukamyataa ~naa.na (desire for deliverence). [snip] > S: So is there any clear comprehension of nama and rupa at this moment? > Usually not for most of us. > [snip] > The question is: what kind of desire or understanding is arising at this > moment? [snip] > Comments (and answers) very welcome;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah 23957 From: bodhi2500 Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 3:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Victor, wrote: > Hi Steve, > > Then we understand differently. > > As I see it, whatever cittas/cetasikas, consciousnesses, hearts, > wills, intentions, minds, mind states, however refined and sublime, > are clinging-aggregates. They are dukkha. "Lokuttara > cittas/cetasikas" as "supramundane minds/mind states" might be an > indication or sign of the cessation of dukkha. However, they > themselves are clinging-aggregates, dukkha, not the cessation of > dukkha. So in that sense, yes, they are included in the noble truth > of dukkha. > > That is how I see it. > > Peace, > Victor Here are a few notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the "Aggregates Sutta" "The key terms to distinguishing the panca upadanakkhandha(five clinging aggregates) from the pancakkhandhaa(5 aggregates) are sasava upadaniya,"with taints and subject to clinging." The 5 clinging aggregates are included within the 5 aggregates, for all members of the former set must also be members of the latter set. However, the fact that a distinction is drawn between them implies that there are khandha which are anasava anupadaniya,"untainted and not subject to clinging" On first consideration it would seem that the "bare aggregates" are those of the Arahant,who has eliminated the asava and upadana. However in the Abhidhamma all rupa is classified as sasava and upadaniya, and so to the resultant(vipaka) and functional(kiriya) mental aggregates of the Arahant....The only aggregates classed as anasava and anupadaniya (untainted and not subject to clinging) are the four mental aggregates occurring on the cognitive occasions of the four supramundane paths and fruits... Aggregates Sutta> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22- 048.html To my reading this would make lokuttara mental aggregates excluded from the "five aggregates of clinging." Steve 23958 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Steve! steve: "To my reading this would make lokuttara mental > aggregates excluded > from the "five aggregates of clinging."" ------------------------------------------------------- YES! If you pay attention on Lokuttara Citta´s definition, you´ll find that they´re directly related with the minds that are on the road towards Nibbana - Sotapani,Sakadagami, Anagami and Arahant. Thinking reversely, you can conceive that, despite the Dukkha´s fetters over all compounded and aggregated mind states, these ones are somewhat beyond such handicap! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23959 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 8:39pm Subject: My Conclusion upon contemplation Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as the abse hi, Thanks for the great response regarding this post i.e.: "Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship?" My reason for placing this post is due to a problem I am sure most buddhist practitioners will encounter. In the Dhammapada verse 61: "If, in your course, you don't meet your equal, your better, then continue your course, firmly, alone. There's no fellowship with fools." _______________________ Also in Itivuttaka verse 76: "The sort of person you make a friend, the sort you seek out, that's the sort you yourself become -- for your living together is of that sort. The one associated with, the one who associates, the one who's touched, the one who touches another -- like an arrow smeared with poison -- contaminates the quiver. So, fearing contamination, the enlightened should not be comrades with evil people. A man who wraps rotting fish in a blade of kusa grass makes the grass smelly: so it is if you seek out fools. But a man who wraps powdered incense in the leaf of a tree makes the leaf fragrant: so it is if you seek out the enlightened." ______________________ Before I encountered dhamma, before I sought release from suffering, I had many friends. I had many friends who were fools; I had many friends who had evil/unskillful qualities; I myself was a fool; I myself had evil/unskillful qualities. While they were fools and had evil/unskillful qualities, at times I found comfort in their company, I, at times recieved love from them, I found fun in their folly, ...my folly. After being convinced in the dhamma, I decided to part from those old friends, even some which were friends for almost 15 years!!! It had to be one of the most painful things I have ever done. I felt very lonely, ...hurt. To this day I suffer. This is why I have placed my post: "Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship?" Upon contemplation and reading some replies on this site and others, some suttas which I was led to, I have come to a conclusion/answer. So, - is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? The answer to that question is - depends on who it is. Obviously for me it was dukkha ...extreme dukkha ...extreme suffering. And for puthujjana - your uninformed, run-of-the-mill person it is also dukkha. There is no question: -It is pleasent to have good mates, friends, companions (for all beings). -It is suffering not to have good mates, friends, companions (for puthujjana only). So then why is it that arahats and informed ones do not suffer from solitude, As well as the absence of love and friendship? It is this:(from Lokavipatti Sutta) The Blessed One said, "Gain arises for an uninstructed run-of-the- mill person (this includes the gain of good mates, friends, companions, love). He does NOT reflect, 'Gain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He does not discern it as it actually is. ...His mind remains consumed with the gain. His mind remains consumed with the loss ...His mind remains consumed with the pain. ...He welcomes the arisen gain and rebels against the arisen loss. ...He welcomes the arisen pleasure and rebels against the arisen pain. As he is thus engaged in welcoming & rebelling, he is not released from birth, aging, or death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, or despairs. He is not released, I tell you, from suffering & stress. ... Now, gain arises for a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones. He reflects, 'Gain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He discerns it as it actually is. ... His mind does not remain consumed with the gain. His mind does not remain consumed with the loss. ...His mind does not remain consumed with the pain. He does not welcome the arisen gain, or rebel against the arisen loss. ...He does not welcome the arisen pleasure, or rebel against the arisen pain. As he thus abandons welcoming & rebelling, he is released from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is released, I tell you, from suffering & stress. This is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person." ------------- And so, for now on, I will be mindful of Anicca (Inconstant; unsteady; impermanent). I will guard my thoughts and feelings. And so, solitude will not be as much stress for me no longer; and will eventually turn to none. I will have equanimity with gain and loss. I will not fear or avoid good companions, ones who love me, nor welcome them. I will have equanimity. with metta, nori 23960 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 9:16pm Subject: FW: Meanings of dhamma, no 3. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 10:48:41 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Meanings of dhamma, no 3. Meanings of dhamma, no 3. As we have seen, the Dhammapada-Atthakata mentions dhamma as an entity without a living soul (nissatta, nijjiva): <"Tasmi.m khopana samaye dhammaa honti, khandhaa hontii"ti (dha. sa. 121) Then, at that time dhammas occur, khandhas occur.> The ³Atthasaalinii² (38, Co. to the Dhammasangani) refers to the different meanings of the word dhamma: Dhammasaddo panaaya.m pariyatti-hetu-gu.na-nissatta-nijjiivata-adiisu dissati. And the word dhamma is used in the sense of scriptural text (pariyatti), virtue (gu.na), absence of an entity, living thing (nissatta, nijjiva), etc. Aya~nhi "dhamma.m pariyaapu.naati sutta.m geyyan"ti-aadiisu (a. ni. 4.102) pariyattiya.m dissati. In such passages as, ³This one studies the Dhamma, the sutta and the Geyya- dhamma means ³the Scriptures². "Hetumhi ~naa.na.m dhamma pa.tisambhidaa"ti-aadiisu (vibha. 720) hetumhi. In such passages as ,²Knowledge of root-conditions is analysis of dhamma (pa.tisambhidaa)-dhamma means root-condition or cause. "Na hi dhammo adhammo ca, ubho samavipaakino; adhammo niraya.m neti, dhammo paapeti suggatin"ti. (theragaa. 304; jaa. 1.15.386)- In such passages as ³dhamma, adhamma bear no equal fruit: adhamma leads to hell, dhamma causes one to reach heaven², dhamma means ³virtue² or ³good quality². "Tasmi.m kho pana samaye dhammaa honti" (dha. sa. 121), In such passages as, ³At the time of consciousness coming into existence, there occur dhammas²; ""dhammesu dhammaanupassii viharatii"ti-aadiisu (dii. ni. 2.373) nissattanijjiivataaya.m. and again, ³he abides watchful over certain dhammas²-dhamma implies absence of an entity or living soul.².... Remarks: The last sentence refers to the fourth Application of Mindfulness: contemplating dhammas in dhammas. All objects of mindfulness which have not been classified in the first three Applications of Mindfulness are classified in the fourth Application of Mindfulness. This Application includes the cetasikas which are the five hindrances, it includes the five khandhas, the six internal and the six external aayatanas (sense-bases), the seven factors of enlightenment and the four noble Truths. These are all dhammas without a living soul, they are not a person, not a being, not self. ****** Nina. 23961 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 3 (Jim & Nina) Hi Larry (& Nina), --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > I don't remember if we discussed "penetration" but I would like to know > more about it. The main point of this paragraph seems to be that panna > both penetrates the general characteristics (impermanence, suffering, > not self) and leads "by endeavour" to a path moment of realization. > Nina, how do you see it? ..... Larry, you may wish to review these messages of Nina’s on: 1) penetration by panna and 2) ‘by endeavour’. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages/23263 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23282 Your summary above sounds pretty good to me.... Metta, Sarah p.s I haven’t forgotten your qu....and will get to it. I’ve had to give priority to buying a computer chair with arm rests today - dr’s orders;-( =============================== 23962 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Path consciousness included in the first Noble Truth? Jim and Steve Jim, thanks very much for these comments. I have pasted below the commentary translation from STA on this point. I think it bears out your comments regarding the 2 ways of looking at the question (nippariyaayato and pariyaayato) -- see the references to 'from an absolute standpoint' and 'from a relative standpoint'. Steve, I think the first approach discussed in the passage is the one reflected in the statement you quoted. Is that how you see it? Jon +++++++++++++++++++++ STA Chapter 7, paragraph 53 Text (Abhidhammattha-Sangaha) The items joined with the path and the fruit are outside the four truths. Commentary (Abhidhammattha-vibhaavinii) _The items joined with the path_ are the remaining items, other than the eight factors, beginning with contact that are associated with the path, _and the fruit_ along with its associated items -- these are _outside_, excluded from, _the four truths_ from an absolute standpoint. But from a relative standpoint, since it is stated in the exposition of the faculty of having known that it is a 'path factor and included in the path' [Dhs 117 (#555)], it is possible, in the case of the dhammas belonging to the fruit, to include right view, etc., in the truth of the path, and the other dhammas associated with the paths and fruits in the truth of suffering because they share in the suffering constituted by conditioned formations. When this is done the summarising of all also occurs in the teaching of the truths. +++++++++++++++++++++ --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Jon, > > I was just checking with the Abhidhammatthasangaha-vibhavini-tika > on your quotes below and saw something interesting. Note that > "strictly > speaking" refers to 'nippariyaayato', but the tika also has > something > to say from the point of view of 'pariyaayato' (in a roundabout way > of > speaking) that puts a~n~naataavindriya (arahattaphala?) in with the > truth of the path and the remaining supramundane paths and fruits > in with the truth of suffering (sa"nkhaaradukkhasaama~n~nena). You > should > be able to read this in your new tika translation which I don't > have yet. 23963 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 6:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Meanings of dhamma, no 3. Nina Thanks very much for this series, which I am finding very interesting. I am reminded of the passage in the commentary to the Mulapariyaya Sutta, which also gives several meanings of 'dhamma'. Do you have the BPS translation by Bh Bodhi ('The Root of Existence')? Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > ... > As we have seen, the Dhammapada-Atthakata mentions dhamma as an > entity > without a living soul (nissatta, nijjiva): > <"Tasmi.m khopana samaye dhammaa honti, khandhaa hontii"ti (dha. > sa. 121) > Then, at that time dhammas occur, khandhas occur.> > ... 23964 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. Dear Kio, I just take your last point. op 04-08-2003 19:16 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > The aim of learning more about different realities is detachment. > First > detachment from the idea of self, and later on from all objects (for > the > arahat). " > > Here, I feel that the last sentence is unnecessary because there is > only one practice, i.e., detached observation of whatever is > happening all around and inside us (so to speak) with honed > senses/awareness – without the notion of any disturbing thoughts, > including the thoughts of self or even the knowledge of Abhidhamma. > Since at that moment, no knowledge will help and that we have to let > go totally, and just be empty. N: When I wrote about my time with Acharn Sujin, it was actually a monologue. You must have had a reason to ask about personal reminiscences. Why? But I know very little about you, except that your background is Zen. I can understand that the Abhidhamma does not appeal to you. But, as you could read: "It is not in the book". Also the suttas are full of Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma is so practical. Because the Buddha explained that what we take for a person are only elements, mental phenomena, nama, and physical phenomena, rupa, which do not last and are devoid of self. We cling to self, but this may not be so obvious. Panna is needed to detect this. The suttas often refer to the belief in a self: We read in the ³Kindred Sayings²(III, Kindred Sayings on Elements, First Fifty, §1)about personality belief, sakkåyaditthi. Såriputta explained to Nakulapitar who was sick, how body and mind are sick: Herein, housefather, the untaught many-folk, who discern not those who are ariyans, who are unskilled in the ariyan doctrine, who are untrained in the ariyan doctrine...these regard the body as the self, they regard the self as having body, body as being in the self, the self as being in the body. ³I am the body², they say, ³body is mine,² and are possessed by this idea; and so possessed by this idea, when body alters and changes, owing to the unstable and changeful nature of body, then sorrow and grief, woe, lamentation, and despair arise in him... The same is said about the other four khandhas. Såriputta then explained that the person who does not have personality belief, though sick in body, is not sick in mind. We cling to citta, cetasika and rúpa, we take them for self. The are four kinds of personality belief with regard to each of the five khandhas: 1. We believe that we are identical with each of the five khandhas, we identify ourselves with them. 2. We believe that we ³own² them. 3. We believe that the khandhas are contained in ³us². 4. We believe that we are contained in them. Thus, there are twenty kinds of personality belief. In the "Kindred Sayings" (IV), the Buddha explained about the world: the world is in the ultimate sense the objects appearing one at a time through the six doors. You can verify that when sound is experienced hardness is not experienced at the same time. Are you familiar with these suttas? Which suttas do you like in particular? They are full of Abhidhamma. The object of vipassana is not a person, not a thing, but one nama or rupa at a time. Nama and rupa are ultimate realities, different from conventional realities. The Abhidhamma gives us many helpful details, for example about conceit. There can be clinging without wrong view, with wrong view and also with conceit. The sotapanna who has eradicated wrong view still has conceit, this is eradicated at the stage of the arahat. Last time in India we were talking about it how often conceit arises. When a beggar touches me, I have aversion, but, there is also, at a different moment conceit: how can he do this to me. There is still he and me. One of the teachers, Acharn Supee, said: there can be conceit when you think, they are dressed well, but I have a very plain dress. It occurs so often in daily life. Or we may think: The others have not taken food from the table yet, but I have served myself already. Conceit is so deeply accumulated. it is hard to detect it. I agree with you that when direct understanding arises there is not thinking. But, intellectual understanding is the foundation of direct understanding. If we would not learn and study first, how could there be direct understanding, we would not know what the objects of right understanding are. I end with a quote from the late Ven. Dhammadharo: "Wisdom, paññå, gets beyond words, beyond thinking about states, positions, ideas about a self or a whole, and it sees reality without thinking. Because the function of paññå is not thinking, its function is to see clearly, to penetrate that which we mistake for "sitting". We mistakenly think that a person is sitting. We have the wrong idea of "I am sitting". Anattå is the core of the Buddha's teaching, not attå, self." Nina. 23965 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 10:37am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. Dear Nina: Respectfully butting in, Nina: -------------------------------------------------- Nina: "Abhidhamma is so practical. Because the Buddha > explained that what we take > for a person are only elements, mental phenomena, > nama, and physical > phenomena, rupa, which do not last and are devoid of > self." ---------------------------------------------------- Ditto! In all my years of buddhistic study, The Abhidhamma was the work that most impressed me, mainly the fabulous Dhammasanganipali. ----------------------------------------------------- Nina:" Are you familiar with > these suttas? Which > suttas do you like in particular? > They are full of Abhidhamma. The object of vipassana > is not a person, not a > thing, but one nama or rupa at a time. Nama and rupa > are ultimate realities, > different from conventional realities." ----------------------------------------------------- As many Bikkhus say, Vipassana is Abhidhamma. This quote finally reached up my understanding when I´ve read by the first time The Dhammasanganipali. Its calm and serene rhythm, the almost melodical pali sentences and a feeling of "up and down...up and down..." of the Hetus stanzas catched me up. Thereafter, matching other suttas with the abhidhamma´s concepts made me saw the hidden harmony between them. ---------------------------------------------------- Nina: " I end with a quote from the late > Ven. Dhammadharo: > > "Wisdom, paññå, gets beyond words, beyond thinking > about states, positions, > ideas about a self or a whole, and it sees reality > without thinking. Because > the function of paññå is not thinking, its function > is to see clearly, to > penetrate that which we mistake for "sitting"." ---------------------------------------------------- People used to live at Zen would recognize in those sentences some hints about the Noble Art of Zen Archery, but there is no necessity to make fuss with it. It´s a matter of fact one must get some prelimimary notions about buddhism to begin to sepak about it (I am always pleading for corrections!!!) ------------------------------------------------------ Nina: " We > mistakenly think that a > person is sitting. We have the wrong idea of "I am > sitting". Anattå is the > core of the Buddha's teaching, not attå, self."" ----------------------------------------------------- Et ces´t Fini! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23966 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > As many Bikkhus say, Vipassana is Abhidhamma. This > quote finally reached up my understanding when I´ve > read by the first time The Dhammasanganipali. Its calm > and serene rhythm, the almost melodical pali sentences > and a feeling of "up and down...up and down..." of the > Hetus stanzas catched me up. Thereafter, matching > other suttas with the abhidhamma´s concepts made me > saw the hidden harmony between them. > > ---------------------------------------------------- Hi Icaro, They are but slick words and sophistry, please don't allow yourself to be intoxicated by reading such things. The true dhamma is beyond any such descriptions, in Pali or not, and should be ignored. Though I have not read of what you speak I can recognize a man put under a semantic spell…the Buddha would not have composed such false insight wrapped in enticing words. This is my opinion. Metta, James 23967 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 5:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg) lokkutara cittas: Is solitude not dukkha? Hello, What an interesting question, one that I had not thought about before. However, since all 89 cittas are included in vinnana khanda (sp?), would not the lokuttara cittas, included in the 89, also be subject to the same characteristics as the other cittas: they are anicca (impermanent), they are dukkha and they are anatta? If the lokuttaras are not included with the entire group of cittas, then it would have been mentioned somewhere that they are not part of the rest of the khandas. Where in the Tipitaka would that reference be? The same is true for the cetasikas: the lokuttara cetasikas are also subject to the same conditions. metta, Betty _________________ > Steve > > Thanks for drawing to my attention the fact that the statement in > question relates specifically to the first Noble Truth, which I had > overlooked. Sorry for any confusion. > > As far as I understand, yes, the 8 lokuttara path factor cetasikas > cannot be the object of clinging and so do not fall within the five > aggregates of clinging that constitute the first Noble Truth. But I > don't know of any textual reference for this. > > Jon > > --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi Jon, All > > > Would the 8 Lokuttara path factor cetasikas be included within the > > Noble Truth of Dukkha? I can see how they would be included in the > > 4 Truths, under the Noble Path, but being Lokuttara and not subject > > to > > clinging, wouldnt that make them excluded from the Noble Truth of > > Dukkha? > > > > Steve > > > 23968 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 5:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Steve, We understand the discourse khanda Sutta differently. I see that the attributes "with effluent"("sasava") and "sustaining"("upadaniya") are attributes for whatever form, feeling, perception, fabrications, and consciousness. So to me the five sustenance-aggregates/pancupadanakkhandha are equivalent to the five aggregates/pancakkhandha. I believe that you see the five sustenance-aggregates (pancupadanakkhandha) are subsets of, and not necessrily equivalent to the five aggregates/pancakhandha. It is possible to interpret the original text of the discourse either way. As a translation of the the passage in MN109: "Bhikkhu, sustenance/upadana is neither the five sustenance- aggregates(pancupadanakkhandha), nor is sustenance/upadana elsewhere from the five sustenance-aggregates(pancupadanakkhandha). With desire & passion(chandarago) to the five sustenance-collections (pancupadanakkhandha), that is the sustenance(upadana) there." As I see it, whatever form, feeling, perception, fabrications, and consciousness are with effluent and are sustaining. They are like the fuel, flammable. Ignited with craving(tanha), desire & passion (chandarago), the fuel burns. This very burning, flame clinging to the aggregates, is the sustenance to becoming, thus birth. Without craving to the five aggregates, the fuel won't burn. Without sustenance, there is no more becoming, no further birth. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > > wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > > > Then we understand differently. > > > > As I see it, whatever cittas/cetasikas, consciousnesses, hearts, > > wills, intentions, minds, mind states, however refined and sublime, > > are clinging-aggregates. They are dukkha. "Lokuttara > > cittas/cetasikas" as "supramundane minds/mind states" might be an > > indication or sign of the cessation of dukkha. However, they > > themselves are clinging-aggregates, dukkha, not the cessation of > > dukkha. So in that sense, yes, they are included in the noble > truth > > of dukkha. > > > > That is how I see it. > > > > Peace, > > Victor > > Here are a few notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the "Aggregates Sutta" > > "The key terms to distinguishing the panca upadanakkhandha(five > clinging aggregates) from the pancakkhandhaa(5 aggregates) are sasava > upadaniya,"with taints and subject to clinging." The 5 clinging > aggregates are included within the 5 aggregates, for all members of > the former set must also be members of the latter set. However, the > fact that a distinction is drawn between them implies that there are > khandha which are anasava anupadaniya,"untainted and not subject to > clinging" On first consideration it would seem that the "bare > aggregates" are those of the Arahant,who has eliminated the asava and > upadana. However in the Abhidhamma all rupa is classified as sasava > and upadaniya, and so to the resultant(vipaka) and functional (kiriya) > mental aggregates of the Arahant....The only aggregates classed as > anasava and anupadaniya (untainted and not subject to clinging) are > the four mental aggregates occurring on the cognitive occasions of > the four supramundane paths and fruits... > > Aggregates Sutta> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22- > 048.html > > > To my reading this would make lokuttara mental aggregates excluded > from the "five aggregates of clinging." > > Steve 23969 From: Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 6:01pm Subject: Vism XIV, 4, 5, 6 Hi all, The next three paragraphs illustrate the three modes of knowing (sanna, consciousness, panna) by means of the simile of a child, a villager, and a money changer all looking at a heap of coins. Like the child, sanna knows only the outward appearance. Like the villager, consciousness is able to penetrate the characteristics of the coins. Like the money changer who knows every aspect of the coins, panna extends further to the manifestation of the path. If one were to consider these three modes of knowing in terms of function it might make more sense to say consciousness sees the object as bare phenomenon and sanna recognizes it as a particular object. However, I think what this simile is pointing to is three levels of truth. Sanna is fundamentally error. It is incapable of seeing an object "as it is" in terms of anicca, dukkha, anatta. Sanna is a patchwork of signs (concepts) and this is the level of most of our ordinary understanding. Consciousness, at a developed level, is able to see directly and immediately the three general characteristics of an object. It is very interesting that this isn't enough to bring about the manifestation of the path. I think what is missing is the Four Noble Truths. In my opinion, it is panna's job to see and understand, directly, the truth of the Four Noble Truths. I notice in the Vimuttimagga the 4 NT are given as a proximate cause of panna. In Vism. XIV, 6 it says that panna does not arise with all perception (sanna) and consciousness but when it does arise perception and consciousness are always present. I take this to mean concept is always present with panna because I think the "sign" (nimitta?) sanna makes is concept. Discussion? Larry 23970 From: eaglenarius Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 6:23pm Subject: new comer Hi all, I'm a new comer in this list. As required by Mr. Moderator, I'll introduced myself. Name : Eaglenarius Timotius (Male) Age : 35 years old Country/location : Indonesia/Tangerang(close to Jakarta) I know this groups by browsing www.cyberdistributeur, and I hope I can understand Buddhism better by joining this groups. But I'm not sure that I can share something brilliant due to lack of my knowledge of Buddhism. Humble bow, Thanks, Eagle 23971 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 7:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] new comer Hi Eagle, In my opinion, lack of knowledge of Buddhism can be a great asset to learning Buddhadhamma. Welcome and looking forward to corresponding. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: eaglenarius To: Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 6:23 PM Subject: [dsg] new comer > Hi all, > > I'm a new comer in this list. As required by Mr. Moderator, I'll introduced > myself. > Name : Eaglenarius Timotius (Male) > Age : 35 years old > Country/location : Indonesia/Tangerang(close to Jakarta) > > I know this groups by browsing www.cyberdistributeur, and I hope I can > understand Buddhism better by joining this groups. But I'm not sure that I > can share something brilliant due to lack of my knowledge of Buddhism. > > Humble bow, > Thanks, > > Eagle 23972 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 8:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My Conclusion upon contemplation Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as the abse Hi Nori, Beware of attachment to the idea of a future with equanimity--it's still attachment, to an unreality, a concept (the future). Equanimity (good or bad--there can be either) arises only in the present. This is very important, I think. All that said, thanks very much for your forthright comments--investigation is good, I think, and mindfulness of impermanence of great value. But 'I' can't guard thoughts or feelings--mindfulness (sati) can, though. These distinctions are important, I think, and can be learned from the tipitaka (pariyatti). Then understanding can condition sati, and so on. mike p.s. As I see it, good companions aren't those who love me--they are those who continually remind me of the Buddhadhamma--which always leads to detachment. > And so, for now on, I will be mindful of Anicca (Inconstant; > unsteady; impermanent). I will guard my thoughts and feelings. And > so, solitude will not be as much stress for me no longer; and will > eventually turn to none. I will have equanimity with gain and loss. I > will not fear or avoid good companions, ones who love me, nor welcome > them. I will have equanimity. 23973 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 9:06pm Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 6 B ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 09:21:55 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 6 B Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 6 B tato attaanampi oloketvaa -- ``ahampi sobhaami. Then Rahula looked at himself and thought: ³I am also beautiful. sace bhagavaa catuusumahaadiipesu cakkavattirajja.m akarissaa, If the Blessed One would reign as a Universal monarch over the four continents, mayha.m pari.naayaka.t.thaanantara.m adassaa. he would give me the position of advisor. eva.m sante ativiya jambudiipatala.m asobhissaa''ti If that would happen, Rose Apple Land would be glorious.² attabhaava.m nissaaya gehassita.m chandaraaga.m uppaadesi. He indulged in attachment connected with worldly life, because of his bodily appearance. bhagavaapi purato gacchantova cintesi -- The Blessed One who walked in front, thought, ``paripu.n.nacchavima.msalohito daani raahulassa attabhaavo. ³Now Rahula¹s outward appearance and complexion (skin, flesh and blood) have reached perfection; rajaniiyesu ruupaaramma.naadiisu hi cittassa pakkhandanakaalo jaato, now the time has come for his mind to rejoice in enticing objects of sight and so on; ki.m bahulataaya nu kho raahulo viitinaametii''ti. why is Rahula wasting his time with so much desire!² atha sahaavajjaneneva pasannaudake maccha.m viya, parisuddhe aadaasama.n.dale mukhanimitta.m viya ca tassa ta.m cittuppaada.m addasa. Then, by thus adverting his attention to it, he saw the arising of that consciousness of Rahula, as clearly as if he saw a fish in clear water, and as if he saw in a clean mirror the reflection of a face. English: Then Rahula looked at himself and thought: ³I am also beautiful. If the Blessed One would reign as a Universal monarch over the four continents, he would give me the position of advisor. If that would happen, Rose Apple Land would be glorious.² He indulged in attachment connected with worldly life, because of his bodily appearance. The Blessed One who walked in front, thought, ³Now Rahula¹s outward appearance and complexion have reached perfection; now the time has come for his mind to rejoice in enticing objects of sight and so on; why is Rahula wasting his time with so much desire!² Then, by thus adverting his attention to it, he saw the arising of that consciousness of Rahula, as clearly as if he saw a fish in clear water, and as if he saw in a clean mirror the reflection of a face. ***** Nina. 23974 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Meanings of dhamma, B.B. texts. Dear Jon, Thank you , I can also use these. I will go soon to the Saddaniti, and this has many more, even concepts as dhammas. Nina op 06-08-2003 15:30 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > I am reminded of the passage in the commentary to the Mulapariyaya > Sutta, which also gives several meanings of 'dhamma'. Do you have > the BPS translation by Bh Bodhi ('The Root of Existence')? 23975 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 11:37pm Subject: Trying to understand my last meditation hi, Wondering if anyone can help me clarify what occured during this mornings meditation. I must admit I have only recently been practicing breathing meditation in what I believe to be a correct manner. I my meditation this morning something that seemed almost "supernatural" occured. I was wondering what everyones thoughts on it were. I never really reached this state before but it was as though time stood still and everything just ceased. This happened after 4 hours of breathing meditation. All sounds ceased. All activity ceased. All reality faded away. All that remained was "me" and my breath. It happened for a considerably long lenght of "time" due to my reference of counts of breath. It almost seemed as though even breathing didn't matter anymore. As soon as I thought "this is strange and acknowledged reality by questioning - what happened to it?", it all returned again. I eventually after getting back to my breath got back to all things ceasing again. It was as though "my" mind and attention toward the sense objects was the sustenance for it. Like I was God creating it. Drawing my attention away made all things cease. (I know this is not from the tipitaka but...) In the Upanishads it is said that there is only Brahman, and nothing exists apart from him. In that philosophy (which partly helped give birth to buddhism), "I" is due to Brahman dwelling in neoscience (not- knowing). It was as though I awoke to Brahman and I was there all alone. Fear overcame me. My longing for loved ones, memory of my identity & place, and fear of death/loneliness brought me back. Could this be? Could it be that only "I" exist and sustain existence; including all of you beings? (I think not) Obviously all of you exist out there as well independently; Don't you? Is there one? Is there multitudes? This is the mystery. I am trying to see where the tipitaka can clarify this? Please excuse my ignorance of buddha dhamma, I am just trying to understand it in easier terms. thanks, nori 23976 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. Dear James, James: "Though > I have not read of what you speak I can recognize a > man put under a > semantic spell…the Buddha would not have composed > such false insight > wrapped in enticing words." ----------------------------------------------------- Dear James, Sometimes I ask to myself if all people that said that the Abhidhamma is abstruse, difficult, heretical, &c, even had spend time to learn pali and read it. I must confess to you - I´ve only read the Dhammasanganipali. My skills on Pali are very limited... but its doctrine is sound. The first stanza of de Mattika begins hitting the very core of own Buddhism: Dhamma! Kusala and Akusala Dhamma. And at the next 21 verses all types of Dhamma in three aspects or modes are catalogued. That´s the beginning. Of course, being the Dhammasanganipali - and all the Abhidhamma - not heretical but a real member of the Tipitaka, you won´t find in these pages reveries as the descriptions of the Buddhas of the Ten directions or the Amida´s votes or the crown of Vairocana. All these addenda came a long time after the Historical Buddha and the Abhidhamma, compiled circa three hundred years after Buddha´s passage by His most devoted disciples (named symbolically as Ananda) states the real teachings of the Holy One at the very bones of Dhamma. James, sometimes I´ve inserted passages of the Lotus Sutra in my Abhidhamma´s readings , only to relax! But if one see this as a manifestation of the compassionate feeling of the Tathagata, all this apparent contradictions will fade away at a good time. And, at last, I read not any sophistry in the Dhammasangani pages... that couldn´t be possible. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23977 From: sinweiy Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 3:08am Subject: Question? Dear All, Where do Buddhas come from? Thanks 23978 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 4:10am Subject: Re: Lokkutara cittas: included in the five aggregates of clinging? Betty Yes, it is an interesting question as you say. All 89 cittas and all 52 cetasikas are included in the five aggregates , but not quite all are included in the 'five aggregates of clinging'. As I understand it, certain aspects of the lokuttara cittas are said to be, like nibbana itself, incapable of being the object of clinging. These dhammas that cannot be the object of clinging do not fall within the first Noble Truth (which is stated in terms of the 'five aggregates of clinging'), strictly considered, even though they also share the 3 characteristics of anicca/dukkha/anatta . (This indicates that Noble Truth of suffering and the characteristic of dukkha are not simply one and the same thing.) Jon --- "Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Hello, > What an interesting question, one that I had not thought about > before. > However, since all 89 cittas are included in vinnana khanda (sp?), > would not > the lokuttara cittas, included in the 89, also be subject to the > same > characteristics as the other cittas: they are anicca (impermanent), > they are > dukkha and they are anatta? If the lokuttaras are not included with > the > entire group of cittas, then it would have been mentioned somewhere > that > they are not part of the rest of the khandas. Where in the Tipitaka > would that reference be? > > The same is true for the cetasikas: the lokuttara cetasikas are > also subject to the same conditions. > > metta, > Betty 23979 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] new comer Hello Eagle Welcome to the list. Please feel free to join in at any time. It's not necessary to have any particular knowledge about the teachings. I hope you find the discussions here interesting and useful. Jon --- eaglenarius wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm a new comer in this list. As required by Mr. Moderator, I'll > introduced myself. > Name : Eaglenarius Timotius (Male) > Age : 35 years old > Country/location : Indonesia/Tangerang(close to Jakarta) > > I know this groups by browsing www.cyberdistributeur, and I hope I > can > understand Buddhism better by joining this groups. But I'm not sure > that I > can share something brilliant due to lack of my knowledge of > Buddhism. > > Humble bow, > Thanks, > > Eagle 23980 From: john196920022001 Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 4:35am Subject: I wanted to share the following Theravada Sutta that I came accross some time ago. It's in the Anguttara Nikaya V.159 of the Pali Canon. It's called the Udayi Sutta. This sutta discusses the qualities of a teacher of the dhamma. One thing that this sutta has taught me is, why do I teach the dhamma? It it for material reward? Money? There are Buddhist organizations that charge a fee for dhamma teachings. The dhamma is free. There are always extenuating circumstances. I am one who used to charge other for meditation teaching. The more I study the buddha"I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi, in Ghosita's Park. Now at that time Ven. Udayin was sitting surrounded by a large assembly of householders, teaching the Dhamma. Ven. Ananda saw Ven. Udayin sitting surrounded by a large assembly of householders, teaching the Dhamma, and on seeing him went to the Blessed One. On arrival, he bowed down to the Blessed One and sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Ven. Udayin, lord, is sitting surrounded by a large assembly of householders, teaching the Dhamma." "It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when five qualities are established within the person teaching. Which five? "[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step- by-step.' "[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].' "[3] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak out of compassion.' "[4] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak not for the purpose of material reward.' "[5] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak without disparaging myself or others.' "It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when these five qualities are established within the person teaching." This sutta has helped me distinguish those who make profit from teaching dhamma and meditation, and those who are dhamma teachers. Believe me I know. I used to make a business of teaching dhamma. I just wanted to share this with everyone. Metta JB 23981 From: vimala Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 7:34am Subject: Re: Trying to understand my last meditation norakat147 writes: <> Hi -- Bhante Gunaratana writes the following about some of the many ideas we have about what meditation is - and what it isn't. "Misconception #2 Meditation means going into a trance Here again the statement could be applied accurately to certain systems of meditation, but not to Vipassana. Insight meditation is not a form of hypnosis. You are not trying to black out your mind so as to become unconscious. You are not trying to turn yourself into an emotionless vegetable. If anything, the reverse is true. You will become more and more attuned to your own emotional changes. You will learn to know yourself with ever- greater clarity and precision. In learning this technique, certain states do occur which may appear trance-like to the observer. But they are really quite the opposite. In hypnotic trance, the subject is susceptible to control by another party, whereas in deep concentration the meditator remains very much under his own control. The similarity is superficial, and in any case the occurrence of these phenomena is not the point of Vipassana. As we have said, the deep concentration of Jhana is a tool or stepping stone on the route of heightened awareness. Vipassana by definition is the cultivation of mindfulness or awareness. If you find that you are becoming unconscious in meditation, then you aren't meditating, according to the definition of the word as used in the Vipassana system. It is that simple. " w/ Metta, "Vimala" Robert njmc@s... http://satipatthana.org -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ As a solid rock is not shaken by the wind, even so the wise remain unshaken amidst blame and praise. Random Dhammapada Verse 81 23982 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 11:00am Subject: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 4. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:09:42 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: meanings of dhamma, no 4. meanings of dhamma, no 4. As we saw in the Atthasaalinii that dhamma can also mean hetu: This text refers to the ³Book of Analysis², Vibhanga, the second Book of the Abhidhamma which deals with the four analytic insights, patisambhidaa: 1. insight of attha *, result (of a cause). 2. insight of dhamma: condition or cause. 3. insight of nirutti, of the language corresponding to reality, expressing attha and dhamma. 4. insight of patibhaana: of illumination, confidence of speech. The knowledge of the three aboive mentioned knowledges in all details. (See dict of Ven. Nyanatiloka). Arahats with the highest distinction were endowed with the four patisambhidas. There are different degrees of them. The Buddha¹s chief disciples did not have them in the same degree of the Buddha, the other arahats had them in a lesser degree than the chief disciples. The Vibhanga states according to the knowledge of attha and knowledge of dhamma with regard to the four Truths: Thus, in these texts dhamma as hetu, condition or cause has been referred to. Also in the ³Pa.tisambhidaamagga², the Path of Discrimination, the four analytical knowledges have been explained. In the Anguttara Nikaaya, Book of the Sevens, IV, 37, we read about seven conditions leading to the four ³analyses². We read at the end: * Attha has many meanings, this word can designate: purpose, meaning, but also result or consequence. Nina. 23983 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 11:00am Subject: Time with A. S. and Dh KK Dear friends, My Time with A. Sujin and also Dhamma in Kraeng Kacang are now on web: http://www.zolag.co.uk Nina 23984 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 3 (Jim & Nina) Hi Larry, op 05-08-2003 02:57 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I don't remember if we discussed "penetration" but I would like to know > more about it. The main point of this paragraph seems to be that panna > both penetrates the general characteristics (impermanence, suffering, > not self) and leads "by endeavour" to a path moment of realization. > Nina, how do you see it? N: Ussaketi: to endeavour, but Jim thought about developing. It could be developing with endeavour. There were difficulties with the stem in Pali, not so clear. Yes, only panna can penetrate the general characteristics (impermanence, suffering, > not self) and leads "by endeavour" to a path moment of realization. L: In Vism. XIV, 6 it says that panna does not arise with all perception (sanna) and consciousness but when it does arise perception and consciousness are always present. I take this to mean concept is always present with panna because I think the "sign" (nimitta?) sanna makes is concept. N: The cetasika sanna arises with each citta. Whenever there is citta there has to be sanna. If a concept is the object, sanna marks and remembers the concept, and if a paramattha dhamma is the object, sanna marks and remembers that object. We should not invariably link sanna with concept, it experiences the same object as the citta it accompanies and it performs its function. The word sign, nimitta, is used in the subco, and also the making of a sign, and this may refer to the kasinas. Also yellow and blue could refer to samatha (kasinas), but this text is really difficult to decipher. I am not sure whether this passage about sanna refers here to samatha, I shall try to study more. Nina. 23985 From: mollyo Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 0:11pm Subject: Re: Trying to understand my last meditation & Dhamma Hi everyone. My name is Molly. I practice Vipassana meitation as tought by S.N. Goenka I live in the United States, in Hawaii since 1992 and in upstate N.Y. before that. All that I have experienced through my interest in the Dhamma has had a profound effect on my life. Sitting the Vipassana course in this tradition opened me up to knowing what the Buddha tought by experiencing it directly first. Only then, after a few years, did I take up the study of the ancient Theravedan texts (starting with the suttas, then discovering, to my great satisfaction, the Abidhamma and the Visuddhimagga). Eleven years after my first course, I still sit regularly, I study little, but only by circumstance rather than by choice. The Dhamma is the profound truth and law. Once one knows Dhamma, one can only not know Dhamma by choice. Ignorance is lessened. Wisdom begins to multiply. Living life away from a center, amidst all kinds of influences, new age, spiritualism, from the most bizarre to the most mundane, I sometimes lose a little of the awareness of what Dhamma is. Recently I purchased a series of tapes explaining the satipatthanna sutta, recorded during a course of that name by Goenka (one must complete 3 ten day courses before attending this old student course). In one of the tapes he explains what Dhamma means. It means "contains" He eplains it in terms of the four foundations of mindfulness, awareness of body, feelings, mind and mental contents. Body, in Pali, is Kaya, body is body, it is either sitting or standing or walking or lieing down. We simply know this. Feelings are bodily feelings either pleasant, unpleasant or nuetral, leading us to react with craving, aversion or ignorance- if we are not aware and equanemous, and if we are, then these very same sensations will lead us to come out of these three roots of misery, our observation of these sensations with full awareness and acceptance (as much equanimity as we can muster up in the moment), helps us to eradicate these defilements, leading us to ultimate liberation from suffering (through accumulation of Paramis and development of Bojhangas) (incidentally, this referrence to ultimate liberation, Nibanna, full enlightenment, from the stage of Sotapanna onward and up to Ariya, is very distinct in Goenka Vipassana. This path is not simply a path of mindfulness to help one live a more peaceful life, though this occurs, this path is truly a path to enlightenment). Mind is Citta, mind is a mind of craving or a mind of aversion or a nuetral mind with neither craving nor aversion. One simply knows mind as mind or Citta as Citta. One is equanemous: "now my mind is a mind with craving, the equanimity develops as one accepts one's mind as it is, rather than imagining it to be a different kind of mind (such as a loving mind, or etc.). One weakens the judgement of mind states, knowing they are temporary... subject to change, and realizing the no-self or anatta of this ephemeral phenomenon. The mind becomes a subject of scientific research, objective observation rather than a personal process to be protected, maintained, prettied up, etc.. And finally, the fourth satipatthanna, mental contents, or, in Pali, Dhamma. Here we reach the most insightful aspect of these four foundations of mindfulness. The mental contents, the Dhamma, or "what mind contains," holds much wisdom for us. We have heard before that Dhamma is everything. Now we hear that Dhamma is what mind contains... Then we remember hearing over and over again, from that simple, ever beloved, easily grasped, Dhammapada, that "mind matters most," that everything is mind-made. Dhamma is nature Dhamma is Law (of cause and effect) Dhamma is everything Everything is mind made Everything that we experience is Dhamma, mind-made, an effect or a cause and an effect and a cause. Trust Dhamma. this i have heard many times from those who have sat many many vipassana courses. as the mind contains many changing things, we realise, at some point, that, although it is not easy to grasp, we actually do create all of this Dhamma. All is Dhamma. It appears to be so is one thing and it is actually so is yet another thing. People appear to be real, they appear to be something outside of us and yet- they are Dhamma also, just as a thought is Dhamma, or a mirage or a bubble or a stream in the forest. We need not contemplate further, wondering about other people's kamma and how does it coincide with our kamma, etc.. we are best to simply accept that dhamma is dhamma is dhamma and it is a manifestation of our own making and no more. it may appear to be far more complicated than that. it may appear as if someone has harmed us, someone has lied to us or stole from us or hit us, but indeed, they do not exist outside of Dhamma, our own mind made them and this action. We completely created this experience. we are not victims. we are creators, always. this concept is so radical for a western mind! In the USA we hire lawyers to prove that we are innocent victims of this crime or of that injustice... much ado about nothing, we harm ourselves further by searching for blame rather than accepting responsibility. This lesson is so difficult to grasp, it is undesireable. it requires deep acceptance and understanding. Our attention should always be on ourselves. This is why Vipassana is so useful and profound, leading us to deeper and deeper understanding of the true nature of reality, taking us into the experience of our own changing nature, taking the attention off of others and into our own body, feelings, mind and mental contents. may we all be liberated. may we all come out of suffering. may we all develop goodwill. may we all develop the Paramis. the path to liberation is a sobering one. may we all keep the five precepts and if we break even slightly just one of them, may we quickly re-commit to them, and move on. sober sober sober self-responsibilty self-reliance self-acceptance leading one to no-self apparently, strangely, illogical and yet intuitively truth know thyself to abandon thyself... love thyself to love others (for we are all one...) we are all buddhas to be, we all contain the seeds of wisdom, all human beings understand some Dhamma. All human beings seek wisdom. All human beings have the seed of Chanda for right meditation. be proud to abandon pride! for proud with understanding and without attatchment helps us abandon false pride with imagined attributes and attatchment. Stdy the Paramis. they are our greatest resource of knowledge. What to do? "develop the Paramis" When we fail at a noble task, we should aknowledge this failure and immediately move on, move forward, begin again, start again, try again, never quit, keep working!!! When we sit a ten day residential course at a Vipassana Meditation Center, we are asked to sit in the same place for long periods at a time (though no more than about an hour at a time). The sitting meditation is relentless, totalling 12 hours in a day. We are asked not to be perfect, but to "keep coming back," to keep trying,to "start again" constantly reminded that we are "bound to be successful." It is so comforting to have this constant reminder to "start again," preparing us later in life to, in fact, "start again," once we have quit while striving for a goal! All is not lost!!! Don't be a quitter!!! The teaching, the technique, the center atmosphere of safety from outside influence (no phone calls or visitors, etc.) all contribute to an outstanding environment for deep inner work, developing self-awareness, slowly, deliberately developing that power of powers: equanimity, the seventh bojhanga, or factor of enlightenment. Metta, Molly Message: 12 Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 06:37:22 -0000 From: "norakat147" Subject: Trying to understand my last meditation hi, Wondering if anyone can help me clarify what occured during this mornings meditation. 23986 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Path consciousness included in the first Noble Truth? Jon, > Jim and Steve > > Jim, thanks very much for these comments. I have pasted below the > commentary translation from STA on this point. I think it bears out > your comments regarding the 2 ways of looking at the question > (nippariyaayato and pariyaayato) -- see the references to 'from an > absolute standpoint' and 'from a relative standpoint'. Thank-you for posting the commentary translation extract from STA which gave me the first opportunity of seeing what the STA is like. I checked the quote with the Pali and found that they agree fairly well together. I liked the renderings: ' from an absolute standpoint' and 'from a relative standpoint'. I think the Analysis of Truth in the Book of Analysis (Vibhanga) could shed some more light on the four noble truths as there is a section that relates it to the Abhidhamma triplets and couplets. It seems that from my reading so far, strictly speaking, the lokuttaradhammas are excluded from the five upadanakkhandhas. The Path of Discrimination (see Treatise of Knowledge) provides some interesting details about the status of the paths and the fruits expecially with regards to the last 3 of the 22 faculties (indriyas). See for example §7 which includes: the final-knower faculty (the a~n~naataavindriya of the arahant) is to be directly known, the origin of the final-knower faculty is to be directly known, the cessation of the final-knower faculty is to be directly known, the path leading to the cessation of the final-knower faculty is to be directly known. Also at §92: When he sees the final-knower faculty he abandons [it]. . . When he sees nibbaana which merges in the deathless he abandons [it]. So nothing is spared in this ruthless and systematic abandoning, not even nibbaana! The final-knower faculty is also included in the following formulas: sabbe sa"nkhaaraa aniccaa/dukkhaa according to §221. Best wishes, Jim 23987 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 1:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > Dear James, > James: "Though > > I have not read of what you speak I can recognize a > > man put under a > > semantic spell…the Buddha would not have composed > > such false insight > > wrapped in enticing words." > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Dear James, > > Sometimes I ask to myself if all people that said > that the Abhidhamma is abstruse, difficult, heretical, > &c, even had spend time to learn pali and read it. > I must confess to you - I´ve only read the > Dhammasanganipali. My skills on Pali are very > limited... but its doctrine is sound. Dear Icaro, I don't see how knowing Pali can affect a person's ability to think, but if you think so we have definitely reached an impasse. I chose to respond to your post because it so blatantly illustrates what I see in so many who embrace the Abhidhamma…a practically fanatical absorption with it. Here you are, fawning and slobbering all over this work called the Dhammasanganipali like it is the latest Harry Potter novel. I am trying to make you understand that such a response is not what the Buddha intended with the dhamma. The true dhamma is supposed to make a person reflect inward, not worship any kind of writings as masterpieces that hold the secrets to the universe. You won`t see such response to the suttas because they do their intended purpose, reflect the reader/listener inward. But I do see this response over and over again to the Abhidhamma because it seems to have a different purpose: to pontificate its brilliance and seeming logic about everything. Wow. Like such writings aren`t in complete abundance already. They aren`t worth a dime. Metta, James 23988 From: Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question? sinweiry Buddha's arise due to conditions as do we all. TG In a message dated 8/7/2003 3:42:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sinweiy@y... writes: > Dear All, > > Where do Buddhas come from? > > Thanks > 23989 From: Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Trying to understand my last meditation Hi Nori I've been to that place as well a long time ago. I think it will require a meditation expert to make sense of it. It does not seem to correspond to the description of Jhanas found in Buddhism. It is certainly a super-normal experience that seems like infinity combined perhaps with bliss...truely indescribable. Personally I think it has little or nothing to do with enlightenment or insight and for myself I wouldn't read too much into it as far as thinking that it is some sort of "answer." Just my thoughts. TG In a message dated 8/6/2003 11:39:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > > > hi, > > Wondering if anyone can help me clarify what occured during this > mornings meditation. > > I must admit I have only recently been practicing breathing > meditation in what I believe to be a correct manner. > > I my meditation this morning something that seemed > almost "supernatural" occured. I was wondering what everyones > thoughts on it were. > > I never really reached this state before but it was as though time > stood still and everything just ceased. This happened after 4 hours > of breathing meditation. All sounds ceased. All activity ceased. All > reality faded away. All that remained was "me" and my breath. It > happened for a considerably long lenght of "time" due to my reference > of counts of breath. It almost seemed as though even breathing didn't > matter anymore. As soon as I thought "this is strange and > acknowledged reality by questioning - what happened to it?", it all > returned again. I eventually after getting back to my breath got back > to all things ceasing again. > > It was as though "my" mind and attention toward the sense objects was > the sustenance for it. Like I was God creating it. Drawing my > attention away made all things cease. > > (I know this is not from the tipitaka but...) > > In the Upanishads it is said that there is only Brahman, and nothing > exists apart from him. In that philosophy (which partly helped give > birth to buddhism), "I" is due to Brahman dwelling in neoscience (not- > knowing). It was as though I awoke to Brahman and I was there all > alone. Fear overcame me. My longing for loved ones, memory of my > identity &place, and fear of death/loneliness brought me back. > > Could this be? Could it be that only "I" exist and sustain existence; > including all of you beings? (I think not) > > Obviously all of you exist out there as well independently; Don't you? > > Is there one? Is there multitudes? This is the mystery. > > I am trying to see where the tipitaka can clarify this? > > Please excuse my ignorance of buddha dhamma, I am just trying to > understand it in easier terms. > > > thanks, > nori 23990 From: Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 2:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 4, 5, 6 Nina: "The cetasika sanna arises with each citta. Whenever there is citta there has to be sanna. If a concept is the object, sanna marks and remembers the concept, and if a paramattha dhamma is the object, sanna marks and remembers that object. We should not invariably link sanna with concept, it experiences the same object as the citta it accompanies and it performs its function." Larry: Hi Nina, I would say sanna's function is to conceptualize. When a reality arises it gives the reality a name. This is the meaning of sanna "marking" its object. Why can consciousness penetrate the characteristics and sanna cannot? What can panna do that consciousness can't? Going by the simile of child, villager, money changer panna is the same kind of knowledge as consciousness, only there is more of it. This knowledge is both experiential and conceptual. The money changer experiences the coins with all 5 physical senses plus he knows where the coins came from, who made them, and their true value. Contra reposte? Larry 23991 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 3:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. Dear James: James: "I don't see how knowing Pali can affect a person's > ability to think, > but if you think so we have definitely reached an > impasse." ----------------------------------------------------- Just thinking. When I think, I make use of words, concepts or symbols. Since the Pali Language was used to dictate and write the suttas, so the mind that elaborates such concepts and ideas follow the same channels. For example: when a hindu thinks about dhamma, the first reference that comes to his mind is the hindi word "dharma", that means directly "religion". But we know that the meaning of Dhamma goes beyond this biased definition of mere "Religion". My mind is not more or less deranged ( that´s not the case, I can guarantee you!) if I learn pali or any other language. ------------------------------------------------- James: because it so blatantly > illustrates what I > see in so many who embrace the Abhidhamma…a > practically fanatical > absorption with it. ------------------------------------------------- Oh well... I was just thinking that we were talking about Dhamma. My erudition is very far to be perfect,my absorption is only a dream...but the Boddhisatta rank is totally far beyond my present ambition! -------------------------------------------------- James: Here you are, fawning and > slobbering all over > this work called the Dhammasanganipali like it is > the latest Harry > Potter novel. I am trying to make you understand > that such a > response is not what the Buddha intended with the > dhamma. ------------------------------------------------- Au contraire, ma chèrie ami! i am not fawning and slobbering about the Dhammasangani... I am chortling with glee!!! This first book of Abhidhamma, in my humble opinion, is the best exposition of Dhamma I´ve ever read. At the Mahayana branch, the Hrdaya Sutra and the Suddhama Pundarika Sutta ( Lotus Sutra) can make a stand also on bearing the true Dhamma flag... but the Dhammasangani is really a landmark!!! Harry Potter could not handle a candle of it, anyway... --------------------------------------------------- James: The true > dhamma is supposed to make a person reflect inward, > not worship any > kind of writings as masterpieces that hold the > secrets to the > universe. -------------------------------------------------- At the first standpoint, all the sorts of Dhamma fall short into two categories: Kusala and Akusala. And with the interplay of Nama and Rupa with Citta, we get a classification of Reality ( at a sense, Dhamma is reality). As a poetic masterpiece, the Dhammasangani is more alike a valley of dry bones... but hits the right point! --------------------------------------------------- James: You won`t see such response to the suttas > because they do > their intended purpose, reflect the reader/listener > inward. But I do > see this response over and over again to the > Abhidhamma because it > seems to have a different purpose: to pontificate > its brilliance and > seeming logic about everything. ------------------------------------------------- All the suttas have this purpose...and more! Only to mention an off-topic subject, the famous Daishonin´s comys of Lotus Sutras - I suppose they´re called Goshos or something alike, I haven´t read any - seems also to point onward a direct understanding of the hidden harmony between the Suttas and all the Dhammas. But...it´s an other story! -------------------------------------------------- James: Wow. Like such > writings aren`t in > complete abundance already. They aren`t worth a > dime. --------------------------------------------------- My ego is a illusion... anatta. But all the effort I put on my readings deserves all my money !!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23992 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 4:25pm Subject: To Icaro & James with metta Hi Icaro (& James), Like you both say, we all find different texts of greatest value. Icaro, James has his own colourful way of welcoming and establishing rapport with new members;-) For my part, I greatly appreciate any encouragement and enthusiasm to read any particular Tipitaka texts. In this case, I’ve always found it rather frustrating to read the PTS translation by Mrs R-D of Dhammasangani and you really encourage me to consider getting a copy of the Pali to read alongside. Jim has also greatly encouraged me to do this too with his enthusiasm and familiarity of the same text. It may not be this year or next, but I find your inspiration in this regard most uplifting. James, I’d really be glad to hear which Tipitaka text or sutta you find most inspiring. Others too...... Fortunately, there are now good translations of most the suttapitaka texts, so the experience of reading a translation is not so frustrating these days, I find. As you say, it is the ‘inward reflection’ and deeper understanding that count, not the language or the particular text or number of texts read. Also, I know that you’re leaving very soon for Egypt and your new position there. I’m sure we all wish you very well with this and look forward to hearing from you on dhamma in your daily life in Egypt. Perhaps you could send some letters or diary entries on this. Perhaps if you stay long enough, we’ll even have a chance to visit in retirement as your trip to Asia has been delayed;-) With metta, Sarah ====== 23993 From: suzakico Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 7:27pm Subject: Nina, More about my backgroud Dear Nina, The reason why I asked your personal experience is to find if I can identify with your real-life experiences. By referring to your description, I thought I can understand what I have gone through and the dhamma I understand has any similarity, resemblance, or difference from that of your experience and learning process. I thought by highlighting these points, I can deepen my understanding and modify ways if any to enrich my practice in daily life. In actuality, as I mentioned, I did not want to disturb the flow and that I was like a child to listen to a story meaning that I could be open to listen well as to what you were pointing. Still, I made a mental note for my own reflection. I was happy to hear the story. In spite of obvious difficulty of me getting inside of your experience, I still feel that I came up with certain understanding as to what you may have gone through due to your elaborated responses,( upon which I am still hopeful that we can exchange ideas further). I appreciate the effort and the process we are going through very much. ((Just highlighting one thing that you clarified in the last post was that knowledge has a place but at the moment of panna, words, thinking, etc. do not help in that instant. Direct understanding of what is, is the essence.)) Now, since you asked about my background, what sutra I like, etc. Let me tell my side of the story a bit. Actually, my name, work, place where I live, my thoughts, background, Zen and vipassana experiences, research on various Buddha?fs teachings, my understanding, and else are all posted at my home page. No reason to hide, I am just curious to learn as much as I can. I wrote these with utmost sincerity, so you can take a look at: www.suzaki.has.it The reason it is open is that people can comment to me so that I can have a process of check and balance going for my learning as well as for the mutual benefit. Since there are many files, I may point one: This is from a recent dialogue held at the group called, Triplegem about theory and practice of dhamma. http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/sanghamindfulness.html Another one about my learning experience, I can direct you or others to my vipassana experience. Although I put effort to be precise in the way of description, it is still a raw stuff. So please be advised to examine carefully without any bias or creating any false image when reading this: http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/vipassanareport.html There are more of these, but I believe this will give you an idea. You also asked my favorite suttas. There are many that I can comment, but I will point only one for now. For this, please see my next post titled, Nibbana-Total Unbinding. Kio 23994 From: suzakico Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 7:29pm Subject: Nibbana – Total Unbinding This post may point not just what sutta I like but how I interpret the words with my background. I wrote this in response to one practitioner's request about my dhamma experience and found as a part of my file: http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/nibbana.html Nibbana – Total Unbinding Patrick, Let me give you another try (By the way I sent another post prior to this, but it was rejected by the gatekeeper. So, this time, I use the sutta from Udana, called Nibbana Sutta: Total Unbinding. Hopefully, he does not reject this one.) In this attempt, I jump straight into the characterization of nibbana and see if we get what it points. To me, this is the game why we are here. It could be that my experience has `something' to do with that unbinding state. (Well…. Just be careful not to believe what I say but use your judgment!) Anyway, here we go. My comments are in the parenthesis ((…)) and toward the end: "… the Blessed One…exclaimed: There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support (mental object).This, just this, is the end of stress. " (Udana VIII.1) ((This dimension as referred to above indicates the state of total unbinding. The characterization is neither this nor that, etc. etc. Also, not coming, going, staying, passing away, etc. Some may call it extinction, but I would like to call this as, it-is-as-it-is state without judgment. What this points is that you need to have this state of release, which is unbinding, i.e., nibbana. So, don' t even think about cittas, rupas, etc. when we are to attain this dimension/state. In fact, it is not attaining, as attaining refers some effort. It has to be effortless effort. That is that dimension!)) "Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: It's hard to see the unaffected, for the truth isn't easily seen. Craving is pierced in one who knows; For one who sees, there is nothing. " (Udana VIII.2) ((First; "It's hard to see the unaffected, for the truth isn't easily seen." In other words, everything is changing. In such a situation, the truth is not easy to see – if we were to see it. It is like chasing to see something while the object and subject is moving. Next; "Craving is pierced in one who knows;" The act of knowing include the craving as in karma/sankhara. It is like, whatever in the past we have experienced has a way of putting the color to the scene we look at – so to speak. So, pierce through this with wisdom that arises at that dimension/state mentioned before. Then; " For one who sees, there is nothing." But the one who sees, pierced through defilements, there is nothing. It is as it is. Nothing hinders. How do we see it? It is the practice of mindfulness or vipassana – seeing the reality as it is.)) "There is, monks, an unborn -- unbecome -- uunmade -- unfabricated. If there were not that unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricatted, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated is discerned." (Udana VIII.3) ((Unborn, unbecome, unmade….are the basis to see the born, become, made as it were, ….without that state realized, you cannot truly see what is going on with the eye of dhamma. So, again, here is catch-22, a paradoxical position that requires for each of us to work on.)) "One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no desire. There being no desire, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress." (Udana VIII.4) ((This phrase refers to that "nothing" in VIII.2. Everything is depending on everything else. Impermanence is to be seen as it is. The one who sees is the one who is independent as the Buddha calls it here. Mindfulness may be seen as a state of independence. Then, what is described above indicates the detachment, which needs strong determination, you call it Viriya here, to realize what is. At least that was the case for me. This may be compared to a mind similar to a mirror reflecting things on it without the mirror changing itself, or surface waves not affecting water in the deep ocean, or line drawn on water. Any of these analogies (and there are hundreds more) indicates the unaffected/independent state. In such a state, there is no desire, no coming or going, which means letting go totally to the point of finally sensing the vibration of the universe as pointed in my poem. How? Let go, let go, let go – totally, totally, totally. The practice of vipassana helped me to have this discipline – with the practice of Viriya. In practicing vipassana meditation, you sit a long time. Then, some kind of desire pops up. You cannot sit a long time unless you find a way to deal with it. This may be not so easy. But can be done with Viriya. There is more to it. But in essence, if you can totally let go of your emotion and pretty much everything else of being a human (so this is similar to dying, thus extinction!), you may have arrived there! Then, there is no coming, going, passing away, arising.. no here or there kind of consciousness, etc. any more…, and then there is nobody to suffer– annata. "This, just this, is the end of stress." Bingo!)) Just a few more cautionary remarks: The most important: If you seek for it, you will not find it. This is the golden rule. So, we need to seek without seeking. Have you try that? If you have not, 1) you need to become familiar with paradox if you were to learn this stuff, and 2) practice it! Actually it may be said as `unlearning' as if to don off unneeded and rediscover what you originally had – the unborn, unbecome, etc. (which is never lost from the beginningless beginning). Tied to this, the other point is that if you think you have it, you may not have it, or you have already lost it. This is because such thought can create another binding condition. So, you need to keep letting go. This is a slippery stuff especially at the beginning (which could be many, many years for some). Another point: do not believe what anyone says at the face value, especially from the one who thinks he is knowledgeable. (Remember the story of Ananda?) One has to be able to walk the talk. So, be critical. Again, do not believe what I say. By the way, one thing I wonder is that if there has been any discussion like this in this group. It appears that there are authorities of Theravada here, but sometimes, as you took an initiative, you need to stick your neck out and ask (- hopefully having done the homework). But, this is my humble opinion. Lastly, if not handled skillfully and used appropriately as a guide, the knowledge of various cittas, rupas, etc. may become a burden. This is my intuitive sense and the point I made about Ananda. Perhaps any `knowledgeable' person can comment on this for our benefit. * FYI, the above Nibbana Sutta is taken from: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud8-01.html Good day, good life, and good luck on your journey! Kio 23995 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 1:11am Subject: RE: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Dear Larry, -----Original Message----- > Hi Kom, > > Would you care to explain "insight knowledge" and "profitable > consciousness" in the following sentence? > > Vism XIV, 2: What is understanding? Understanding (panna) is of many > sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it > all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, > besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind > intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge > associated with profitable consciousness. > > 1) What is meant by understanding (panna) in the first part of this > paragraph? Well, the book doesn't shed more light (for me) about what panna in the first part really mean. However, the definition of panna (later, in 7) pretty much excludes everything else.... > 2) It's pretty clear that insight knowledge is panna, but is it panna > confined to Satipatthana only? In 7), the insight knowledge is defined as: understanding has the characeristic of penetrating the individual essenses of states. kom 23996 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Larry, As I write this, I’m concentrating on my elbows. I’ve just had my new computer chair with elbow rests delivered after resisting all these years. Now I have to get used to sticking out my elbows and having them supported - the opposite of what I was taught at the dining table as a child. --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > In the US a significant number of children have a learning disability > called Attention Deficit Syndrome and it is starting to be diagnosed in > adults. Is that the case in Hong Kong? .... Did you read the article in ‘Time’ magazine (1st week of August, I think)- lots on meditation experiments too for Rob M and others with colourful pictures of brains and so on. Seemed well-written as well. Just the other day in H.K., there was an article about how we’re the most sleep-deprived nation and how this is affecting attention and concentration amongst teenagers and adults in the workplace. And yes, I’ve long had teenagers referred to me by schools with ADS and related disorders - ..... > I think ADS may not be a deficiency of attention, but rather a > deficiency of concent